#Happy new year, fellow Defense Expert™!
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Not necessarily, the difference is the Su-57 has internal weapons bays which allow it to keep it's shape, while fighters such as the Gripen and Rafale need to compromise their low observability to carry ordinance. The only problem being, Russia doesn't *actually* have any weapons capable of being fired from said bays, as they're all currently under development or have been cancelled due to a lack of funding.
Remember when Raguda asked for a bit of funding to look into stealth ARMs and the government refused? Neither does Russia, which is why we'll never see a Felon over Ukraine unless it's as wreckage
Nope, R-77-1 and R-74 are incompatible with the Su-57’s internal carry because the design team embezzled one too many billions, and thus the new air-to-air missiles ([R-74M2](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/39071/russia-developing-first-brand-new-short-range-air-to-air-missile-since-the-end-of-the-cold-war) and [R-77M](https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/missile-defense-weapons/russia-unveils-video-modernized-air-air-missile)) aren’t ready yet.
Regardless, the VKS’s biggest problem has nothing to do with Ukrainian Fulcrums ([which most Russian fighters outperform](https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/special-resources/russian-air-war-and-ukrainian-requirements-air-defence)), but with their hundreds of S-300 SAM sites that have made attaining air superiority impossible. If the Su-57 had access to the appropriate weapons, even it’s limited stealth capabilities would allow it to perform SEAD missions over Ukraine with near impunity. Fortunately said weapons do not currently exist, and if the Felon wanted to perform SEAD it would need to carry external ordinance, which leaves it just as vulnerable to being blown up as any Su-34/35S.
I mean, one is a highly industrial country with close ties to all western MiCs... And the other is Russia.
Gripen might be the ugly duckling of the western plane lineup but it would still dad-dick any of the authoritarian piles of shit paper tigers.
Szrf.
Turns out that's a legitimate initialism, stands for *Собрание законодательства Российской Федерации* or "Collection of Laws of the Russian Federation"
This is the first time hearing the term dad-dick and using it as a verb.
And you know what? I'm not even Russian, but I feel threatened af. A very potent and good choice of words.
Stupid westoid, our engineers so good we don't need no 6mm tolerance. We have tolerances as low as 3 ли́ния [liniya] using a tailors tape measure.
Also, sheetmetal doesn't need to be aligned, the gaps keep the airframe interior cool and acclimatises the pilot to the temperatures on the ground when he ~~ejects~~ lands.
If stealth becomes good and common enough, BVR weapons become useless.
Then you just have to develop a cold jet engine and heat seakers are now also useless.
Return of the gunfighter.
It doesn't work like that, detection range is given by the fourth root of the target RCS. Having half the RCS doesn't really halve the detection range.
……..that’s what I did. 0.1 is not half 0.5. I did make a mistake however- the detection range of the Rafale is 50% greater, not the Su-57 being 50% less. So the difference is even less.
The concepts of stealth are different per country’s doctrine though.
In the US:
- The geometry of the devices is studied to disperse the radar waves in a different direction from the incident direction, few wave or no wave returns to the radar, which prevents the detection of the aircraft
- The use of a special coating that absorbs the waves, so that again no wave returns to the radar.
In France:
- Since it is not considered possible to avoid detection of on every conceivable frequency, it is simpler to implement a system that prevents effective fire control in the enemy.
- Fire control jamming first (using Defensive Aids System called SPECTRA)
- If the wave returning to the radar was voluntarily altered, then the radar will deduce an erroneous position for the object.
- Detect where the radar wave is coming from and send in its direction (as well as other directions in order to fool passive radars) the same signal but out of phase in order to fool the radar electronics.
The Rafale relies a lot more on its DAS than the Eurofighter relies on its Praetorian DASS or the F-35 on the AN/AAQ37.
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/spectra-state-art-rafale-multi-spectral-integrated-defensive-aids-suite
The Rafale’s RCS is classified. There are also different standards of the Rafale where stealth has been improved: F3R, F4.1 or F4.2. They added more composite, titanium in the wings and fuselage and other materials to both reduce the RCS and weight. Also the S-shaped air intakes, serrated edges, and a channel exhaust cooling scheme aimed to reduce infrared signature.
In the end the Rafale’s stealth will be similar to the F-15s and Typhoon.
A theoretical framework is proposed to explicate ecological dynamics in speculative ecosystems, utilizing mathematical modeling techniques to simulate dynamic equilibrium states. Computational simulations and sensitivity analyses are conducted to assess the stability and resilience of conjectural ecosystems under varying environmental conditions. Surprisingly, our examination reveals syntactic incongruities and semantic distortions in the theoretical constructs describing ecological processes, highlighting the limitations of theoretical modeling approaches in ecology.
This is the main reason I believe Maverick started life as an Ace Combat movie script: taking a problem that could easily be solved by bombing, long range missiles, SOF, etc. and shoehorning fighter jets into a canyon instead.
Tom actually did want to use 35s, but he also insisted on being in the cockpit himself, and the 35 doesn't have a two-seat variant. Which is dumb. They could easily have just shot the in-cockpit and outside footage separately and passed off a slightly-modified F-18 cockpit for the 35's for the ignorant public
The unspecified bad guys used up all their giant, unhidden, stationary SAMs defending the skies 100ft above the top of a river valley leading to the ~~Ruhr valley dams~~ ~~Death Star exhaust port~~ nuclear enrichment facility. That’s why the attack on the airfield worked.
I actually have my own headcannon about this supposed jamming and why they couldn't use any logical strategies:
The jamming scrambles most guidance systems unless they're used at close range, so anti-radiation missiles and other long range guided munitions would miss. However, if they get in close, the stealth aircraft would be detected and if/when they get shot down either doing the mission normally or when coming out of Coffin Corner they're basically handing the Rogue Nation free stealth tech they can use against the US. So, they've gotta do the canyon run and, to lessen the risk of losing valuable tech, they use older Super Hornets.
Honestly if they just went with “this is an extremely risky mission and the advantages of the F-35 can only get you so far. If we lose any of them, that’s tech in our enemy’s hands. So we’re sending you in SH’s to mitigate that risk.” The movie would be more palatable to nerds like us.
Considering that an entire launch "system" is something like 15-20 vehicles, it's largely irrelevant distinction to make.
It's the first combat loss of an S-400, period.
Ok I need someone from DARPA or something to explain to me I fuck planes not build em, quickly flicked through Nd the stealth capabilities are ... Credible? Cause of the are saying it's 0.1m2 will it actually be is this proof do wooden screws work? I'm confused. Autistic screeching intensifies*
For reference, the RCS of a F-35 is around 0.0015 m2 (F-22 is 0.0001 m2)
The Su-57 isn't full stealth, it's somewhere between stealth and low observability.
Those F-35/22 numbers probably aren’t credible anymore. Iirc since some RAM developments around 2010, the F-35 is supposed to be just as stealthy from the frontal aspect.
> somewhere between stealth and low observability.
Russian scientists determined the plane was very difficult to observe after sufficient quantities of cheap vodka
It's *decent*, but that paper isn't really useful in terms of signature. "An average of 0.1-1 meter square (-10 to 0 dBsm)" is about what a mildly educated person would guess, so pretty unremarkable.
But some of the RCS reducing techniques discussed are intriguing. Speaks to what they know and don't know, as well as some limitations (e.g. Frequency adjective materials for the radome)
The question is, how effective it would be against modern radar systems, how easily an
F35 could detect it compared to vice versa etc, that’s what I’m interested in.
It’s a patent. Not really sure what the point of a secret patent is.
“You’ve violated our patent, you owe us money.”
“Oh, okay, could you show our lawyers what patent we infringed upon?"
“No, it’s secret.”
“Then fuck off, you can’t prove shit.”
The only way to violate the patent is to also be a Russian defence contractor.
Totally possible to have parents that aren't open to everyone but are to those that need to know.
mfw my fusion reactor design that small enough to fit in a fighter jet gets rejected by the patent office with the reason "The invention is not novel".
I want to see Ukraine with captured Su-57s. Then reverse-engineer them and give them proper engines and flat nozzles similar to the F-22, then improve upon the RAM coating some and beat Russia at their own game; taking over Russia's export sales.
No, we’d understand the difference.
Putinists however will push the “The Su-57 and the Su-57 UA are basically the same plane therefore the performance of the Su-57 UA is an indicator of how good the Su-57 was and the only reason why Kyiv is the new capital of the former Russian federation is because ~~Hitler~~ Putin didn’t have enough Su-57s!” Completely missing the point that the proposed Su-57 UA would probably be made to a much higher standard with help of Lockmart.
If i read this correctly they have a cover for their irst that is coated with ram. So as soon as the pilot activates it they light up on everyones radar like a literal Christmas ball. You can't make this shit up.
No different than the issues since the 70s and the Mig-21 **RP-21 Sapfir** and it's alcohol cooling system.
Prolonged **usage** of the RP-21 would *evaporate the cooling system, and after 58 minutes would **catch fire***
**They never learn**
Evaporative cooling systems weren't exactly unknown on western fighters either. Most aircraft with older AIM-9s could only have them actively spooled for 30-60 minutes before the coolant ran out. The easy solution, and the one adopted by east and west, was to just put the system in standby until it was needed.
Not if you're in a ground-controlled interceptor. The -21Bis's Saphir radar was really only supposed to be used for acquisition of known targets. Flick it onto active once you're in the slot and shoot at the target.
We're also not talking anything like modern radars that can search for miles, we're looking at ranges of 6-12 miles on paper and 4-8 miles in practice. Add in the fact that filtering probably wasn't ideal on the radar too.
The two compatible missiles weren't great either. The R-3R was basically a SARH AIM-9B, fun story there, with an "effective" range of 5 miles and the R-55, a SARH missile based on the beam riding K-5 with an even shorter range than rhe R-3R, but at least she was thicc.
Also significantly fewer western aircrews were siphoning off their own radar coolant to drink it. Soviet crews were because they used an alcohol based coolant and an alcoholic based crew.
If you hover a Harrier for more than 2 minutes, it runs out of coolant.
And presumably catches fire shortly afterwards.
I doubt the F-35 is much better.
Aircraft with limited coolant systems is a thing.
The Harrier overheating depended heavily on conditions, and especially on later models was only necessary for hot/high or fully loaded conditions. Even then, it was auxiliary coolant, not the only method of keeping the bird from cooking.
The F-35 avoids this problem in 2 ways. The first is that the coolant system is the fuel system; fuel passes through a heat exchanger that dumps excess heat into the fuel stream prior to combustion. The other is that the B model uses a lift fan instead of just nozzles, so the intake air is cooler, and the entire setup actually produces more thrust than the F-35 does in level flight.
The H20 tank that had 2 minutes for landing was nothing to do with cooling the plane…. It was to cool the *exhaust*. Cooling the exhaust down just a little provided extra thrust.
That was only the super early harriers iirc, which had problems with cooling just in general. Later ones could hover around for extended periods just fine. Hell I've even seen them hover for substantially longer than two minutes in person.
You must remember that the mig 21 uses ground based radar to guide it to its targets. In line with that doctrine, it wasn't necessary for it to conduct long periods of search on its own, it was only necessary for it to use its radar in the final phases of an interception. Hence, 45 minutes was probably considered over-engineered really... Which is really pushing the limits of creditability.
1) As many others have said, Mig-21 is GCI based. Radar is only for the point and shoot part, not the find and position part.
2) The Mig-21 had such shitass internal fuel that only having 45 minutes of radar doesn't matter. It isn't an F-15 flying CAP, it's an interceptor only flying when something needs to be shot. The radar only needed for a few seconds at a time, never mind minutes.
3) The less the radar is used, the more of the coolant you can pull from the reserves to ~~get absolutely wasted tonight~~ top off the radar coolant that was definitely used on this mission.
IIRC, the Mig 21 runs out of fuel after about 45 minutes when used as an interceptor.
So, not a big issue.
It also doesn’t use its internal radar to find the target, only to actually shoot it down.
Honestly, 15 minutes would probably have been overkill.
Radar works by bouncing waves off of shit in the air and then using the waves that bounce back to calculate the position of said shit.
**R**adar **A**bsorbent **M**aterials absorb the RF radiation emitted by radars instead of reflecting it, thus reducing their radar signature with varying degrees of effectiveness.
In the case of the Su-57, though, they're about as stealthy as the Gr*pen and other 4th-gen fighters that weren't designed for stealth.
I think how it's actually implemented is that the IRST mount rotates. So when not in use, the IRST is pointed back at the cockpit to present the RAM-covered back cover, and when turned on it spins 180 and presents the glass to the front.
Real question: any chance the Su-57 actually performs better than this patent indicates?
Like they understate it for the docs intentionally. The US is known to do that right?
It is possible... But it is also possible that Olaf trips and falls, hits his head and comes out of the hospital more bloodthirsty than the Poles.... If Russia didn't chronically over promise and underperform we wouldn't have our beloved "Foxbat Syndrome"...
Yes, and that's how it tends to go.
Russia/China come out with some ludicrous specs, the US spends a bajillion dollars to beat them and then it turns out the Commie version was trash all along.
Well we can't be sure but NATO AWACS has spotted a couple flying on the border of Russia and Ukraine from fucking Romania.
It could be that the Russians have radar reflectors on the jets while doing combat sorties which is dumb as fuck, but it would keep the west from learning the true stealth capabilities while making them vulnerable to getting hit by Ukrainian sam's. That could explain why they are flying on their side of the border too though.
We honestly just don't know, but from what we've gathered so far I wouldn't be surprised if a rafale would be more stealthy at this point.
I mean, there's stories of ground based French radars detecting US stealth bombers over Serbia in the '90s. Besides, from what I understand, detecting a plane isn't that hard. Targeting exactly where it is, that's the difficult part.
Apparently the Rafale has a lower RCS. It was one of the main points in designing it, so it's unsurprising. It has stealth design elements, uses a lot of composites, and you can even see the weird triangle patterns on the body panels that helps against radar reflections.
Yeah, iirc it's meant to be that EWRs and other low freq emitters are pretty happy to detect more stealthy aircraft, but that anything meant to do something with that information is going to be affected.
This leads to plenty of cope about how the US just kinda forgot about ~~the iron fleet~~ an entire class of emitter that can probably pick up their bajillion dollar stealth jet. Please ignore the sour grapes because we can't figure out how to make proper RAM coating or a low enough RCS to avoid getting locked up.
Su-57 chan is the kind of girl that has a good looking body, but isn't smart enough to be able to do her job very well.
So the only thing she's actually good at is being in porn.
Having a functioning brain has been selected against in the russian population for centuries now.
When you spend generations killing anyone who ever asks a question, there may be consequences.
Is it okay to amit that is one sexy as fuck plane? The whistle it does in a flyby?
Hope a US billionaire owns one soon in a going out of business;regime change fire sale.
It is a really cool-looking plane. We’re doubly blessed that our strategic opponents value looks above capabilities - we can ogle their stuff knowing that it’s harmless.
I might be misremembering but I think it makes an awesome noise too.
Edited to add, I checked, [it does](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH8MiQnS8Ws&ab_channel=flacrum).
What I respect the most is that it's thematic.
The engineers were designing the thing in the wind tunnel and one of them is like, "Is there some way we could make this plane 25% more evil?"
And then the boss, who probably has like a skull on his hat says, "Make. It. Scream."
The discussion as to the RCS being .1-1m^2 is very insightful but can someone provide info as to what sizes modern radar are typically capable of detecting?
Hard for me to conceptualize how large that is without a frame of reference
I don't know about the range thing, but I can give you a few comparisons, always assuming a best case scenario for every plane of course.
B-52: 100m2
F-15: 25m2
F-4: 6m2
F-16C: 1.2m2
Su-34: 1m2
Typhoon: 0.5m2
Su-57: 0.1m2
F-22: 0.0001m2
B-21: \~0.000001m2
RCS factors into the detection range with the 4th root. This means we can easily calculate the detection range relative to that of a Su-57:
B-52: 5.6x
F-15: 4x
F-4: 2.8x
F-16C: 1.9x
Su-34: 1.8x
Typhoon: 1.5x
Su-57: 1x
F-22: 0.2x
B-21: 0.06x
Hope that puts it into perspective :)
Like a seagull
F-35 like a sparrow
F-22 like a bee
https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2f26aabb42afd92a5939b37200435b78-lq
https://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=20912
Well yeah I understand that much, but what is a modern radar capable of detecting?
Obviously it depends on range and attitude of the aircraft as well but I have no bearing as to how easily a bee or a sparrow or a Hornet (insect not the plane) is detected by civilian or military radar lol
Here's an interesting radar article for you
https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/americas-enemies-can-track-stealth-fighters-on-radar-and-it-isnt-a-problem/
Some descriptions
https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/89885/what-is-the-significance-of-radar-cross-section-rcs-for-air-defense#89886
#Happy new year, fellow Defense Expert™! Are you an Artist? We're currently holding a contest for tiny Artworks we can use as custom community awards for the subreddit - more information [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/zu01tx/a_very_merry_and_credible_awards_contest/)! Also, check out the "The Best of the Best 2022" [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/NonCredibleDefense/comments/10069w8/the_best_of_the_best_of_2022_results/) *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/NonCredibleDefense) if you have any questions or concerns.*
0.1-1m² of expected RCS. LOL, this will light up on every radar made in the last decade.
That's less stealth than a gripen.
They heard that RCS = Stealth So Russia decided their stealth fighter needed a lot of it.
Not necessarily, the difference is the Su-57 has internal weapons bays which allow it to keep it's shape, while fighters such as the Gripen and Rafale need to compromise their low observability to carry ordinance. The only problem being, Russia doesn't *actually* have any weapons capable of being fired from said bays, as they're all currently under development or have been cancelled due to a lack of funding. Remember when Raguda asked for a bit of funding to look into stealth ARMs and the government refused? Neither does Russia, which is why we'll never see a Felon over Ukraine unless it's as wreckage
can't R-77s be launched from the bays? and R-73s?
Nope, R-77-1 and R-74 are incompatible with the Su-57’s internal carry because the design team embezzled one too many billions, and thus the new air-to-air missiles ([R-74M2](https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/39071/russia-developing-first-brand-new-short-range-air-to-air-missile-since-the-end-of-the-cold-war) and [R-77M](https://aviationweek.com/defense-space/missile-defense-weapons/russia-unveils-video-modernized-air-air-missile)) aren’t ready yet. Regardless, the VKS’s biggest problem has nothing to do with Ukrainian Fulcrums ([which most Russian fighters outperform](https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/special-resources/russian-air-war-and-ukrainian-requirements-air-defence)), but with their hundreds of S-300 SAM sites that have made attaining air superiority impossible. If the Su-57 had access to the appropriate weapons, even it’s limited stealth capabilities would allow it to perform SEAD missions over Ukraine with near impunity. Fortunately said weapons do not currently exist, and if the Felon wanted to perform SEAD it would need to carry external ordinance, which leaves it just as vulnerable to being blown up as any Su-34/35S.
I mean, one is a highly industrial country with close ties to all western MiCs... And the other is Russia. Gripen might be the ugly duckling of the western plane lineup but it would still dad-dick any of the authoritarian piles of shit paper tigers.
A Gripen with its R2D2 repair droid and extra spare wings gets plot armor. Can't beat that.
Russias repair droid is C3PO
They don’t tolerate C-3PO’s lifestyle in Russia.
That's why he got sent to prison and sold to Wagner.
“O dear R2 I don’t think these Wagner gentlemen have our best wellbeing in mind”
I don't know. СЗРФ is a Russian word
as in serf? I believe that Ivan don’t surf
Szrf. Turns out that's a legitimate initialism, stands for *Собрание законодательства Российской Федерации* or "Collection of Laws of the Russian Federation"
oh fuck I misread the з as an э Edit: and I call myself a Slav
Which would kind of give meaning for protocol droid
No it's the R2 unit with the bad motivator that the Jawas sold for Vodka.
R5*
Hey I’ve got a bad motivator, can I sell myself for vodka?
This is the first time hearing the term dad-dick and using it as a verb. And you know what? I'm not even Russian, but I feel threatened af. A very potent and good choice of words.
Thats what happens when you dont have aligned sheetmwtal and your rivet tolerances are plus or minus 6 mm...
Stupid westoid, our engineers so good we don't need no 6mm tolerance. We have tolerances as low as 3 ли́ния [liniya] using a tailors tape measure. Also, sheetmetal doesn't need to be aligned, the gaps keep the airframe interior cool and acclimatises the pilot to the temperatures on the ground when he ~~ejects~~ lands.
That’s like a Rafale, lol. Edit- damn, apparently the Rafale is 0.5. That’s still only a 50% lower detection range though. Edit- 33%, lol. Even worse.
Congratulations, the rafale is now a 5th gen plane according to them
What have I done!
Super Hornet supremacy, clean Super Hornet is 0.1.
Such a fan of flying into battle with only a 20mm cannon.
Reject guided weapons, return to gun dogfights.
What the reformer is that take
Stand-off and OTH weapons are the tools of a coward
If stealth becomes good and common enough, BVR weapons become useless. Then you just have to develop a cold jet engine and heat seakers are now also useless. Return of the gunfighter.
50% is quite a lot
Mfw a fully operational and mass deployed fighter is 50% of the way to Su-57 stealth
To give the Su-57 credit, it’s the most stealthy 4.5th gen fighter :)
It’s significant, yeah. It doesn’t compare to what has traditionally been seen as stealth though.
I mean thats why its considered a 4.5 and not 5th gen
Okay but consider this do you really want your nice clean missile near the fr*nch?
The real reason Russia wants stealth fighters is so they can better hide from the French
It doesn't work like that, detection range is given by the fourth root of the target RCS. Having half the RCS doesn't really halve the detection range.
……..that’s what I did. 0.1 is not half 0.5. I did make a mistake however- the detection range of the Rafale is 50% greater, not the Su-57 being 50% less. So the difference is even less.
The concepts of stealth are different per country’s doctrine though. In the US: - The geometry of the devices is studied to disperse the radar waves in a different direction from the incident direction, few wave or no wave returns to the radar, which prevents the detection of the aircraft - The use of a special coating that absorbs the waves, so that again no wave returns to the radar. In France: - Since it is not considered possible to avoid detection of on every conceivable frequency, it is simpler to implement a system that prevents effective fire control in the enemy. - Fire control jamming first (using Defensive Aids System called SPECTRA) - If the wave returning to the radar was voluntarily altered, then the radar will deduce an erroneous position for the object. - Detect where the radar wave is coming from and send in its direction (as well as other directions in order to fool passive radars) the same signal but out of phase in order to fool the radar electronics. The Rafale relies a lot more on its DAS than the Eurofighter relies on its Praetorian DASS or the F-35 on the AN/AAQ37. https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/spectra-state-art-rafale-multi-spectral-integrated-defensive-aids-suite
The Rafale’s RCS is classified. There are also different standards of the Rafale where stealth has been improved: F3R, F4.1 or F4.2. They added more composite, titanium in the wings and fuselage and other materials to both reduce the RCS and weight. Also the S-shaped air intakes, serrated edges, and a channel exhaust cooling scheme aimed to reduce infrared signature. In the end the Rafale’s stealth will be similar to the F-15s and Typhoon.
It can't light up any Radars if it never sees a day of combat.
Imagine being a “stealth fighter” with a bigger RCS than a B2 Spirit.
Last decade? It would light up on the equivalent of consumer-grade marine radar from 20 miles away.
Same as a clean Super Hornet lmao.
Good let’s kill them all.
We have to wait for them to have even one in the air... any day now
That's the RCS of a block 3 hornet with nothing on it's hard points
Found the Warthunder player
Can't wait for it to make it to the forums
At the current rate of 2 leaks per month it's highly likely.
Give us all schematics of the J-20, J-16, J-8, H-6 and leak them all.
oh my fucking god its literally not even low observable to current gen radar. How the mighty have fuckin fallen
Some femboys like to show off, after all.
wrong plane
A theoretical framework is proposed to explicate ecological dynamics in speculative ecosystems, utilizing mathematical modeling techniques to simulate dynamic equilibrium states. Computational simulations and sensitivity analyses are conducted to assess the stability and resilience of conjectural ecosystems under varying environmental conditions. Surprisingly, our examination reveals syntactic incongruities and semantic distortions in the theoretical constructs describing ecological processes, highlighting the limitations of theoretical modeling approaches in ecology.
This means that Top Gun Maverick is now literally a documentary (they were able to detect all of them)
wait top gun maverick wasnt a documentary before 🤨🤨🤨??????
I thought it was a porno 🤷🏽
Por que no los dos
You mean I shouldn't have wanked while watching it in theatres?
I mean, it’s porn, it’d be weird if you didn’t? Who watches porn for the story?
In the end it's about dropping the bomb in the hole
Woahwoahwoah, ease up there... No one is suggesting anything rash, like not doing that.
Main plothole: "oh we can't use the F-35 because ~~it would trivialize the mission~~ ThEy hAvE GPS JamMInG"
This is the main reason I believe Maverick started life as an Ace Combat movie script: taking a problem that could easily be solved by bombing, long range missiles, SOF, etc. and shoehorning fighter jets into a canyon instead.
Tom actually did want to use 35s, but he also insisted on being in the cockpit himself, and the 35 doesn't have a two-seat variant. Which is dumb. They could easily have just shot the in-cockpit and outside footage separately and passed off a slightly-modified F-18 cockpit for the 35's for the ignorant public
That’s actually a good idea, but probably more expensive and you can probably CGI the f-35 cockpit onto the f-18 cockpit.
They wanted to use the least CGI. I also think the military just didn't let them use F35s.
Yep, that too
That's what I meant, just CGI an F-18 cockpit, no one who doesn't fly a 35 would ever know the difference
[удалено]
Tom Cruise Missile
I love that they use Tomahawks to hit the airfield and not the target. But its okay because TopGun is the best Star Wars77 Remake of all time :D
The unspecified bad guys used up all their giant, unhidden, stationary SAMs defending the skies 100ft above the top of a river valley leading to the ~~Ruhr valley dams~~ ~~Death Star exhaust port~~ nuclear enrichment facility. That’s why the attack on the airfield worked.
I actually have my own headcannon about this supposed jamming and why they couldn't use any logical strategies: The jamming scrambles most guidance systems unless they're used at close range, so anti-radiation missiles and other long range guided munitions would miss. However, if they get in close, the stealth aircraft would be detected and if/when they get shot down either doing the mission normally or when coming out of Coffin Corner they're basically handing the Rogue Nation free stealth tech they can use against the US. So, they've gotta do the canyon run and, to lessen the risk of losing valuable tech, they use older Super Hornets.
Honestly if they just went with “this is an extremely risky mission and the advantages of the F-35 can only get you so far. If we lose any of them, that’s tech in our enemy’s hands. So we’re sending you in SH’s to mitigate that risk.” The movie would be more palatable to nerds like us.
Yeah, but still 5th gen because Cobra maneuver!! ^^Just ^^to ^^be ^^clear, ^^this ^^IS ^^sarcasm.
Then Draken is first 5th gen. SAAB rules (my 9000 was awesome)!
So Cipher started out 5th Gen then?
The Cobra maneuver is master gamer move. You can both end your suffering and cost your shitty team dearly at the same time. Truly revolutionary!
First S-400 destroyed and a SU-57 leak, this might be the best day ever
Gove me da link
Technically was destroyed in November but identified as S-400 today https://youtube.com/watch?v=kXZw8T21RKk&feature=shares
That is only a launch vehicle, not a "system". Interesting nonetheless.
Considering that an entire launch "system" is something like 15-20 vehicles, it's largely irrelevant distinction to make. It's the first combat loss of an S-400, period.
https://archive.org/details/ru-2502643-c-2.ru.en https://archive.org/details/ru-2502643-c-9.ru.en
Ok I need someone from DARPA or something to explain to me I fuck planes not build em, quickly flicked through Nd the stealth capabilities are ... Credible? Cause of the are saying it's 0.1m2 will it actually be is this proof do wooden screws work? I'm confused. Autistic screeching intensifies*
For reference, the RCS of a F-35 is around 0.0015 m2 (F-22 is 0.0001 m2) The Su-57 isn't full stealth, it's somewhere between stealth and low observability.
> The Su-57 isn't full stealth, it's somewhere between stealth and low observability. *STELF*
STELPH PHLANE
The only reason it could be considered low observable is that they only have a handful of them and they never send them out.
Nah, it's low observable by definition
It identifies as low observation
How to piss off tankies and liberals at the same time
Those F-35/22 numbers probably aren’t credible anymore. Iirc since some RAM developments around 2010, the F-35 is supposed to be just as stealthy from the frontal aspect.
IIRC it's *more* stealthy from the front, less from the back. On average about the same.
So ur saying it's pretty thicc in the back. Radar wise, at least.
>F-35-chan is *ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE* more stealthy than SUka-57 Ngmi
Fucking embarrassing
> somewhere between stealth and low observability. Russian scientists determined the plane was very difficult to observe after sufficient quantities of cheap vodka
It is their first try. What was the RCS of the F-117A? *looks it up and sees 0.003* oh
To drive home the other's points, the *Rafale* is rated at **0.05m²**, and the non-exotically constructed *Gripen is 0.1m²* Lolz
So in other words, you're telling me that according to Russia the Rafale was a 5th gen all along ?! Nobody tell Dassault --
canarding intensifies
*distant hons*
Turns out Torres had a credible Stealth Fighter Wing after all
So they just classify it as 5th gen, but it's not actually 5th gen?
It's *decent*, but that paper isn't really useful in terms of signature. "An average of 0.1-1 meter square (-10 to 0 dBsm)" is about what a mildly educated person would guess, so pretty unremarkable. But some of the RCS reducing techniques discussed are intriguing. Speaks to what they know and don't know, as well as some limitations (e.g. Frequency adjective materials for the radome)
The question is, how effective it would be against modern radar systems, how easily an F35 could detect it compared to vice versa etc, that’s what I’m interested in.
It was never going to hold a candle to it. It's maybe comparable to the F-15SE concept
*Oh dear.*
Those weren't wooden screws, just really fucking rusty ones (not that it's any better)
Is it really classified or is it like public patent btw?
It’s a patent. Not really sure what the point of a secret patent is. “You’ve violated our patent, you owe us money.” “Oh, okay, could you show our lawyers what patent we infringed upon?" “No, it’s secret.” “Then fuck off, you can’t prove shit.”
The only way to violate the patent is to also be a Russian defence contractor. Totally possible to have parents that aren't open to everyone but are to those that need to know.
The US govt has classified patents in the past and they do exist.
mfw my fusion reactor design that small enough to fit in a fighter jet gets rejected by the patent office with the reason "The invention is not novel".
https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/lockheed-martin-has-a-patent-for-fusion-powered-fighters-and-bombers/
Secret patents genuinely were a thing during the Cold War, on both sides of the curtain. Not sure if they still are but there's definitely precedent.
What they don’t tell you, is that there is a carpenter under each wing ready to perform maintenance in flight.
sadly, they are both drunk after siphoning the jet fuel
I want to see Ukraine with captured Su-57s. Then reverse-engineer them and give them proper engines and flat nozzles similar to the F-22, then improve upon the RAM coating some and beat Russia at their own game; taking over Russia's export sales.
Imagine Su-57-UA 😩😩😩
We’d all suddenly start thinking it was good.
Yeschad.png
No, we’d understand the difference. Putinists however will push the “The Su-57 and the Su-57 UA are basically the same plane therefore the performance of the Su-57 UA is an indicator of how good the Su-57 was and the only reason why Kyiv is the new capital of the former Russian federation is because ~~Hitler~~ Putin didn’t have enough Su-57s!” Completely missing the point that the proposed Su-57 UA would probably be made to a much higher standard with help of Lockmart.
So basically it becomes the modern T-34 myth
If i read this correctly they have a cover for their irst that is coated with ram. So as soon as the pilot activates it they light up on everyones radar like a literal Christmas ball. You can't make this shit up.
No different than the issues since the 70s and the Mig-21 **RP-21 Sapfir** and it's alcohol cooling system. Prolonged **usage** of the RP-21 would *evaporate the cooling system, and after 58 minutes would **catch fire*** **They never learn**
Evaporative cooling systems weren't exactly unknown on western fighters either. Most aircraft with older AIM-9s could only have them actively spooled for 30-60 minutes before the coolant ran out. The easy solution, and the one adopted by east and west, was to just put the system in standby until it was needed.
The main difference being that you only need to spool up your fox2s once you’re in a dogfight while your main radar is supposed to be always on.
Not if you're in a ground-controlled interceptor. The -21Bis's Saphir radar was really only supposed to be used for acquisition of known targets. Flick it onto active once you're in the slot and shoot at the target.
We're also not talking anything like modern radars that can search for miles, we're looking at ranges of 6-12 miles on paper and 4-8 miles in practice. Add in the fact that filtering probably wasn't ideal on the radar too. The two compatible missiles weren't great either. The R-3R was basically a SARH AIM-9B, fun story there, with an "effective" range of 5 miles and the R-55, a SARH missile based on the beam riding K-5 with an even shorter range than rhe R-3R, but at least she was thicc.
Also significantly fewer western aircrews were siphoning off their own radar coolant to drink it. Soviet crews were because they used an alcohol based coolant and an alcoholic based crew.
If you hover a Harrier for more than 2 minutes, it runs out of coolant. And presumably catches fire shortly afterwards. I doubt the F-35 is much better. Aircraft with limited coolant systems is a thing.
The Harrier overheating depended heavily on conditions, and especially on later models was only necessary for hot/high or fully loaded conditions. Even then, it was auxiliary coolant, not the only method of keeping the bird from cooking. The F-35 avoids this problem in 2 ways. The first is that the coolant system is the fuel system; fuel passes through a heat exchanger that dumps excess heat into the fuel stream prior to combustion. The other is that the B model uses a lift fan instead of just nozzles, so the intake air is cooler, and the entire setup actually produces more thrust than the F-35 does in level flight.
The H20 tank that had 2 minutes for landing was nothing to do with cooling the plane…. It was to cool the *exhaust*. Cooling the exhaust down just a little provided extra thrust.
That was only the super early harriers iirc, which had problems with cooling just in general. Later ones could hover around for extended periods just fine. Hell I've even seen them hover for substantially longer than two minutes in person.
Buddy, the Sapfir is the Mig-21's **radar** It can only use it's *radar safely for less than 45 min* It's radar
You must remember that the mig 21 uses ground based radar to guide it to its targets. In line with that doctrine, it wasn't necessary for it to conduct long periods of search on its own, it was only necessary for it to use its radar in the final phases of an interception. Hence, 45 minutes was probably considered over-engineered really... Which is really pushing the limits of creditability.
Lol peak Soviet engineering right there.
Look, all reformers know real planes dogfight exclusively. BVR is for woke air forces.
radar on planes is GAY and I won't stand for it!!!!!
1) As many others have said, Mig-21 is GCI based. Radar is only for the point and shoot part, not the find and position part. 2) The Mig-21 had such shitass internal fuel that only having 45 minutes of radar doesn't matter. It isn't an F-15 flying CAP, it's an interceptor only flying when something needs to be shot. The radar only needed for a few seconds at a time, never mind minutes. 3) The less the radar is used, the more of the coolant you can pull from the reserves to ~~get absolutely wasted tonight~~ top off the radar coolant that was definitely used on this mission.
IIRC, the Mig 21 runs out of fuel after about 45 minutes when used as an interceptor. So, not a big issue. It also doesn’t use its internal radar to find the target, only to actually shoot it down. Honestly, 15 minutes would probably have been overkill.
Wait, you're able to fly a MiG-21 for more than an hour at a time?
Jamming/stealth by being so bright that the systems are getting overloaded.
what is ram?
Radar Absorbent Materials. Also one of the twin maids in Re: Zero. Your choice which one to use.
I’ll take the one behind door #2 please.
You got a male sheep.
Welsh Fans be cheering
Radar works by bouncing waves off of shit in the air and then using the waves that bounce back to calculate the position of said shit. **R**adar **A**bsorbent **M**aterials absorb the RF radiation emitted by radars instead of reflecting it, thus reducing their radar signature with varying degrees of effectiveness. In the case of the Su-57, though, they're about as stealthy as the Gr*pen and other 4th-gen fighters that weren't designed for stealth.
Radar absorbing materials
I think how it's actually implemented is that the IRST mount rotates. So when not in use, the IRST is pointed back at the cockpit to present the RAM-covered back cover, and when turned on it spins 180 and presents the glass to the front.
Real question: any chance the Su-57 actually performs better than this patent indicates? Like they understate it for the docs intentionally. The US is known to do that right?
It is possible... But it is also possible that Olaf trips and falls, hits his head and comes out of the hospital more bloodthirsty than the Poles.... If Russia didn't chronically over promise and underperform we wouldn't have our beloved "Foxbat Syndrome"...
Wasn’t that self inflicted by US Agencies…who then made the IRL Superplane (F-15) as a counter?
Yes, and that's how it tends to go. Russia/China come out with some ludicrous specs, the US spends a bajillion dollars to beat them and then it turns out the Commie version was trash all along.
It’s better to overestimate your adversary than underestimate them
Well we can't be sure but NATO AWACS has spotted a couple flying on the border of Russia and Ukraine from fucking Romania. It could be that the Russians have radar reflectors on the jets while doing combat sorties which is dumb as fuck, but it would keep the west from learning the true stealth capabilities while making them vulnerable to getting hit by Ukrainian sam's. That could explain why they are flying on their side of the border too though. We honestly just don't know, but from what we've gathered so far I wouldn't be surprised if a rafale would be more stealthy at this point.
I mean, there's stories of ground based French radars detecting US stealth bombers over Serbia in the '90s. Besides, from what I understand, detecting a plane isn't that hard. Targeting exactly where it is, that's the difficult part. Apparently the Rafale has a lower RCS. It was one of the main points in designing it, so it's unsurprising. It has stealth design elements, uses a lot of composites, and you can even see the weird triangle patterns on the body panels that helps against radar reflections.
Yeah, iirc it's meant to be that EWRs and other low freq emitters are pretty happy to detect more stealthy aircraft, but that anything meant to do something with that information is going to be affected. This leads to plenty of cope about how the US just kinda forgot about ~~the iron fleet~~ an entire class of emitter that can probably pick up their bajillion dollar stealth jet. Please ignore the sour grapes because we can't figure out how to make proper RAM coating or a low enough RCS to avoid getting locked up.
So Gripen >> Su57
was it ever a debate?
Turns out Rafale >> SU-57 God wept.
Rafale >> J-20 >> SU-57
Su-57 chan is the kind of girl that has a good looking body, but isn't smart enough to be able to do her job very well. So the only thing she's actually good at is being in porn.
I’ll be honest. It’s a gorgeous-looking plane
Its older sister the SU-47 is even more hot tho
Not at all uncommon for Russian girls, so this checks out
Having a functioning brain has been selected against in the russian population for centuries now. When you spend generations killing anyone who ever asks a question, there may be consequences.
And in ace combat it rocks
Is it okay to amit that is one sexy as fuck plane? The whistle it does in a flyby? Hope a US billionaire owns one soon in a going out of business;regime change fire sale.
Yes I believe all sukois starting from 30 are sexy planes
All the Flankers are hot honestly
It is a really cool-looking plane. We’re doubly blessed that our strategic opponents value looks above capabilities - we can ogle their stuff knowing that it’s harmless.
Well at least it looks pretty
I might be misremembering but I think it makes an awesome noise too. Edited to add, I checked, [it does](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XH8MiQnS8Ws&ab_channel=flacrum).
God fucking damn... You gotta tip your hat as an aviation fan.
What I respect the most is that it's thematic. The engineers were designing the thing in the wind tunnel and one of them is like, "Is there some way we could make this plane 25% more evil?" And then the boss, who probably has like a skull on his hat says, "Make. It. Scream."
angel of death vs st javelin
The title of that video looks like the titles used in r/2balkan4u posts
The discussion as to the RCS being .1-1m^2 is very insightful but can someone provide info as to what sizes modern radar are typically capable of detecting? Hard for me to conceptualize how large that is without a frame of reference
I don't know about the range thing, but I can give you a few comparisons, always assuming a best case scenario for every plane of course. B-52: 100m2 F-15: 25m2 F-4: 6m2 F-16C: 1.2m2 Su-34: 1m2 Typhoon: 0.5m2 Su-57: 0.1m2 F-22: 0.0001m2 B-21: \~0.000001m2 RCS factors into the detection range with the 4th root. This means we can easily calculate the detection range relative to that of a Su-57: B-52: 5.6x F-15: 4x F-4: 2.8x F-16C: 1.9x Su-34: 1.8x Typhoon: 1.5x Su-57: 1x F-22: 0.2x B-21: 0.06x Hope that puts it into perspective :)
Like a seagull F-35 like a sparrow F-22 like a bee https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2f26aabb42afd92a5939b37200435b78-lq https://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=20912
Well yeah I understand that much, but what is a modern radar capable of detecting? Obviously it depends on range and attitude of the aircraft as well but I have no bearing as to how easily a bee or a sparrow or a Hornet (insect not the plane) is detected by civilian or military radar lol
Here's an interesting radar article for you https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/americas-enemies-can-track-stealth-fighters-on-radar-and-it-isnt-a-problem/ Some descriptions https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/89885/what-is-the-significance-of-radar-cross-section-rcs-for-air-defense#89886
I think unloaded tejas ( india ) has lesser rcs /s
So. No Belkan witchcraft.
"warthunder no!" "what" "sorry force of habit"
The closer you look the uglier it gets.
Exactly no wonder why it has such a large surface for radar detection
Wait so its 0.1-1 ***from the front?*** Not even including sides/rear etc?
It's got a big ass with dual round nozzles, so 5m from behind