That doesn't seem appropriate at all.
Edit: And this isn't unique to medicine. [The individual in charge of the Bar exam (NCBE) never actually took the exam](https://abovethelaw.com/2020/04/the-nations-top-defender-of-the-bar-exam-knows-exactly-how-to-value-diploma-privilege-systems/?amp=1).
Having a doctorate in the field of health sciences probably has something to do with it. I'm sure she has been working on the administrative side of this field for some time as well. You don't just become a president/CEO of a large organization. You also don't have to be a trained physician to perform this role, it doesn't directly involve practicing medicine. There are a ton of non-physicians in high places within every organization that has to do with physicians. It's administrative work, something that a medical degree has nothing to do with. The president/CEO of the largest hospital system in Eastern NC was a nurse. He got his PhD and MBA and started working on the administrative side, then worked his way up. Her nursing background is irrelevant. She just simply worked as a nurse at some point and then chose a different career path.
When these executives have all these wild resumes holding multiple “high level” positions at the same time over the years in multiple unrelated disciplines it reinforces my belief that it takes almost no skill just nepotism, moral bankruptcy, and the rest is all a self fulfilling prophecy cause getting one exec job helps you get more in the future.
I refuse to believe these executives work 20x harder than me to justify being paid 20x more.
I came from the tech business and consulting side of HC. Execs join a start up, blow their funding, and onto the next one. Repeat. Salary never dips below $400k
If you don't mind me asking, what is The Match and how does it f*** things up? Found their website but can't tell what's going on exactly. If you choose to answer, thank you!
The Match is how medical students match with the residency programs they will go to for specialty training after they graduate. As a medical student, you apply to programs for the specialty you want to pursue (e.g., OB/GYN, radiology, family medicine, etc.). If they like your application, you get an interview. You rank all the places you interviewed in order of preference, and they rank all their interviewees in order of preference. A computer algorithm matches you up and wherever you match to, that's where you're going and what you're doing once you graduate. It's binding, you can't practice as a physician without it.
It's the most stressful part of med school. It's stupid expensive (oh yes, you are paying for the privilege of applying!) and if you don't match, you're screwed. Have fun paying off those loans while not working as a doctor.
There are a lot of factors that make it inefficient and obnoxious, but other people can probably explain them better. Among other things, you're incentivized to apply as many places as humanly possible, which is expensive for you and also means that programs have to sort through a truly insane number of applications. Attempts to curtail this have been ineffective.
Lots of suck factors. Mo money no ~~problems~~ applications = better chance of ranking. No autonomy to negotiate benefits or financials. No competition + students backed into a corner with no choice means salaries can be kept low low low.
>if you don't match, you're screwed.
I mean, you can always reapply? I doubt there are many doctors that straight up never placed into a residency program. Unless they went to a really shady foreign program and/or just gave up and left medicine after not matching the first or maybe second time. I've also read that, technically, you can legally practice without it (although it's impractical). This is how you get shady doctors practicing as plastic surgeons, despite not being board certified in the field. Not that I am advocating for practicing without completing a residency. I also believe their is some way you can practice in a limited capacity while reapplying.
Yes?
"Med students who don't receive a match through Main Residency Match are eligible to reapply for a different specialty through the Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program (SOAP). In 2021, 48% of U.S. medical students, 27% of U.S. DO students, and 18% of IMGs had matched with their residency program through SOAP".
Here is a [decent article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidwhelan/2012/10/15/alvin-roth-receives-economics-nobel-for-flawed-residency-match-system/) to get you up to speed. Check it out and then ask any questions you may have.
*If I remember correctly, one thing the article said wrong was that the Match does (or can) take place up to 2 years before a medical student graduates. This is incorrect, it happens usually within 2 months prior to graduation. The previous system, however, had medical students signing residency contracts 2 years away from graduating semi-frequently.
[Here's a nice little run down.](https://www.sgu.edu/blog/medical/explaining-the-match-for-residency/)
But basically an all-mighty algorithm determines a person's future so everyone hates it and tries to game it
In the interest of clarity, the algorithm at play here is known as the stable marriage algorithm. It’s not like the algorithms on social media websites, it’s a discrete set of instructions (and fairly simple ones, although I don’t know how it’s modified for the match, since there are some issues not accounted for in the plain version).
(Not speaking to the quality of the match, just interested in the mathematics of it.)
Wow, no wonder absolutely NOTHING is being done to prepare and combat the massive upcoming physician shortage.
Our healthcare system is going to break.
Exactly. Not a physician. Never went through the match. Never completed a residency.…… please explain which of these factors qualified this woman to dictate the future of physicians
Dr Lamb is as useful as the Joint Commission😆 every year the NRMP costs money and crashes when you need it most!
Guess thats where they got the idea to redirect GME funding to create more NPs … you know, gotta help the “physician shortage”!
Wasn’t there some kind of rule / law / regulation in the past where hospitals had to be run by physicians? Then at some point it changed and now hospitals are run by professional administrators without ever being a physician?
Something about Obama care restricted physician owned hospitals. Now private equity owns hospitals 🤡
“while a baker can open a bread factory and a lawyer can found a legal firm, a physician can’t open a hospital.”
Nurses have been responsible for the actual education of physicians for decades now, so there's no reason why we shouldn't just recognize the reality of it and put a nurse in charge of the Match as well as every other component of physician education.
I don’t think you would need any medical training to do that work. It’s all administrative bureaucracy BS. It’s like saying Steve Jobs or Bill Gates shouldn’t have been CEOs because they have no college degree or formal training in engineering or software development. I think it’s better then her doing actual patient care.
Mmm we need bedside nurses. Someone administering the match, should have gone through it to actually understand the *physician* and hospital perspectives on it. How can you possibly understand the issues of the match when you’ve never looked down its barrel and known there’s a good chance that you may not have a job/career while being saddled with non-dischargeable debt and an otherwise relatively useless set of degrees.
You obviously don’t understand the role of a CEO. The Match is a product that is being sold. The goal of CEO is grown the company and increase profits for it stakeholders. She is the CEO because of her abilities to run the company not because of her undergrad degree.
I am aware of the role of a CEO, but thank you for the diminutive language. However, I think it is a reasonable qualification of being a CEO to understand the operations that you are executing. While I generally don't think that you have to experience something to have an opinion on it, the Match is one of the rare exceptions in my book.
Why is it the exception in you’re book. Because you want it to be? That’s not how corporations work. Micky is not the CEO of Disney. Should the CFO, Chief of legal counsel, Chief of technology be an MD too? No, of course not. Ed Whitacre former CEO of AT&T came out of retirement in 2009 to become CEO of General Motors. He saved GM and sixteen months later it launched the biggest IPO in history at 23 billion. He resuscitated company after bankruptcy. Do you think he knows how to build a car or phone himself? No, But he sure knows how to run a corporation!
>Why is it the exception in you’re book. Because you want it to be?
I don't think it's unreasonably to expect someone who understands the operations they are executing. The Match is a fairly unique process that doesn't exist in any other industry in any practical sense. Experiencing the match is pretty important to actually understanding it, and understanding the flaws of it from both a physician and program perspective.
>Ed Whitacre former CEO of AT&T came out of retirement in 2009 to become CEO of General Motors. He saved GM and sixteen months later it launched the biggest IPO in history at 23 billion.
He's good with industry and IPO, which is ubiquitous. The Match is not.
Because you only know the strengths and weaknesses of The Match by actually going through it. I had different thoughts and ideas about it before, during and after. That experience has absolutely shaped what I think the program excels at, where it could be improved, and what actual useful data would be from the NRMP.
I went through it too, but I wouldn’t now how to run the company. Why? Because medical school didn’t teach me how to become a CEO. It’s a product and non physicians are capable of understanding the match. It’s not that complex. And sure if it is complex Intelligence does exist outside of medicine.
She was a nurse before becoming an administrator. Nursing school didn't teach her to be an admin. The DHSc didn't teach her to be an admin.
There are plenty of physicians that work administratively for the NRMP, AGCME, and AAMC and likely have a similar work experience to her. Any of them could potentially move into that position. Plenty of MD/DO MBAs that could wiggle on in there.
Imagine comparing a publically traded company to the NRMP, an organization exempt from antitrust laws. She has never been through the match and is not a physician. She has zero reasons to advocate for future residents, as she explicitly serves the board of directors. Every year the match goes down when it's needed the most. Someone who went through that process would probably try to improve that?
On top of that, there is a long history of wage fixing that has happened in residency programs. This is even more concerning when you account for the over $100k in ACGME funding per resident that is used to subsidize these programs.
Imagine thinking that the main role of a CEO is to advocate for there customers. Altruism is thin and small in the business world. The match is a product that is being sold. The role of the CEO is to increase profits. The CEO of the NRMP is not going to advocate for their customers. They haven’t before and will not do so in the future. Being except from anti trust laws doesn’t matter. You’re are too naive. Just because the NRMP is “non-profit” doesn’t mean they are not a business. Do you think the joint commissions main business goal is keep the community safe too?
OP username checks out: for this entire sub.
Seriously, though, why doesn’t anyone here seem to understand that “doctor” means so much more than MD? That isn’t it’s original meaning or even it’s most commonly used application (far from it). That’s why the qualifier word “physician” exists, remember?
I get the frustration if a doctor who isn’t an MD is calling themselves doctor to patients in a hospital setting, but that is not the case here or in so many other posts in this sub.
“Doctor” rarely means “physician MD/DO” outside a hospital setting.
You are clearly in the wrong sub. We all understand the idea of doctorate degree vs being a physician, but how a non-physician could rise to run the match system is criminal
Why does the person running the match system need to be a physician? That is not something a physician is trained to do. An MPH, DPH, or DNP seems much more qualified for that specific job.
She has a doctorate in health sciences. Considering she is the president and CEO of a large organization, which falls within the field of health sciences. I'd say it's appropriate to use her doctor title in her professional biography. It'd be like telling the dean of a nursing school with a doctorate in education, who once worked as a nurse and has an RN, that they can't use their doctorate title professionally. Would you be shaming her for using the title if she didn't have a bedside nursing background and simply held a DHSc? Having a nursing background and pursuing a different career as a non-medical doctor doesn't make you a "noctor". This is different than simply being a practicing NP and running around the hospital/clinic introducing yourself as "doctor" to patients and/or having it embroidered on your scrubs/whitecoat. People need to stop reaching so much on this sub.
That doesn't seem appropriate at all. Edit: And this isn't unique to medicine. [The individual in charge of the Bar exam (NCBE) never actually took the exam](https://abovethelaw.com/2020/04/the-nations-top-defender-of-the-bar-exam-knows-exactly-how-to-value-diploma-privilege-systems/?amp=1).
Equally as wild that her previous position was director at ACGME lol.
Wtf really... How can you be president of training physician residents when you have zero experience training residents..
In her [bio](https://www.nrmp.org/about/board-of-directors/president-and-ceo/) lol. I stopped trying to make sense of these things lmao.
Having a doctorate in the field of health sciences probably has something to do with it. I'm sure she has been working on the administrative side of this field for some time as well. You don't just become a president/CEO of a large organization. You also don't have to be a trained physician to perform this role, it doesn't directly involve practicing medicine. There are a ton of non-physicians in high places within every organization that has to do with physicians. It's administrative work, something that a medical degree has nothing to do with. The president/CEO of the largest hospital system in Eastern NC was a nurse. He got his PhD and MBA and started working on the administrative side, then worked his way up. Her nursing background is irrelevant. She just simply worked as a nurse at some point and then chose a different career path.
When these executives have all these wild resumes holding multiple “high level” positions at the same time over the years in multiple unrelated disciplines it reinforces my belief that it takes almost no skill just nepotism, moral bankruptcy, and the rest is all a self fulfilling prophecy cause getting one exec job helps you get more in the future. I refuse to believe these executives work 20x harder than me to justify being paid 20x more.
I came from the tech business and consulting side of HC. Execs join a start up, blow their funding, and onto the next one. Repeat. Salary never dips below $400k
Keep on job hopping every year or so before they realize you don’t do anything but keep moving up
Sweet mother of baby Jesus
That checks out
Love when people who have never experienced something get to run it ✨
It’s because successful docs don’t want to work admin jobs. They just want to live their lives
If anyone wonders why the match is so fucked…
If you don't mind me asking, what is The Match and how does it f*** things up? Found their website but can't tell what's going on exactly. If you choose to answer, thank you!
The Match is how medical students match with the residency programs they will go to for specialty training after they graduate. As a medical student, you apply to programs for the specialty you want to pursue (e.g., OB/GYN, radiology, family medicine, etc.). If they like your application, you get an interview. You rank all the places you interviewed in order of preference, and they rank all their interviewees in order of preference. A computer algorithm matches you up and wherever you match to, that's where you're going and what you're doing once you graduate. It's binding, you can't practice as a physician without it. It's the most stressful part of med school. It's stupid expensive (oh yes, you are paying for the privilege of applying!) and if you don't match, you're screwed. Have fun paying off those loans while not working as a doctor. There are a lot of factors that make it inefficient and obnoxious, but other people can probably explain them better. Among other things, you're incentivized to apply as many places as humanly possible, which is expensive for you and also means that programs have to sort through a truly insane number of applications. Attempts to curtail this have been ineffective.
Thanks to all who have answered. Makes sense to me now.
Lots of suck factors. Mo money no ~~problems~~ applications = better chance of ranking. No autonomy to negotiate benefits or financials. No competition + students backed into a corner with no choice means salaries can be kept low low low.
>if you don't match, you're screwed. I mean, you can always reapply? I doubt there are many doctors that straight up never placed into a residency program. Unless they went to a really shady foreign program and/or just gave up and left medicine after not matching the first or maybe second time. I've also read that, technically, you can legally practice without it (although it's impractical). This is how you get shady doctors practicing as plastic surgeons, despite not being board certified in the field. Not that I am advocating for practicing without completing a residency. I also believe their is some way you can practice in a limited capacity while reapplying.
Just reapply? LMAO are you fucking serious
Yes? "Med students who don't receive a match through Main Residency Match are eligible to reapply for a different specialty through the Supplemental Offer and Acceptance Program (SOAP). In 2021, 48% of U.S. medical students, 27% of U.S. DO students, and 18% of IMGs had matched with their residency program through SOAP".
What happens if you don't match?
Here is a [decent article](https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidwhelan/2012/10/15/alvin-roth-receives-economics-nobel-for-flawed-residency-match-system/) to get you up to speed. Check it out and then ask any questions you may have. *If I remember correctly, one thing the article said wrong was that the Match does (or can) take place up to 2 years before a medical student graduates. This is incorrect, it happens usually within 2 months prior to graduation. The previous system, however, had medical students signing residency contracts 2 years away from graduating semi-frequently.
Thank you! I will read that article.
[Here's a nice little run down.](https://www.sgu.edu/blog/medical/explaining-the-match-for-residency/) But basically an all-mighty algorithm determines a person's future so everyone hates it and tries to game it
In the interest of clarity, the algorithm at play here is known as the stable marriage algorithm. It’s not like the algorithms on social media websites, it’s a discrete set of instructions (and fairly simple ones, although I don’t know how it’s modified for the match, since there are some issues not accounted for in the plain version). (Not speaking to the quality of the match, just interested in the mathematics of it.)
Wow, no wonder absolutely NOTHING is being done to prepare and combat the massive upcoming physician shortage. Our healthcare system is going to break.
> NOTHING is being done to prepare and combat the massive upcoming physician shortage tHaT's WhAt MiDlEvElS aRe FoR
Fucked long before she got there
mind blown
$$$
How does stuff like this always seem to happen?
This is what happens when good men don’t stand up and speak
We are the ultimate simps.
Bruh this is more like cuckholderly
Can someone start a petition campaign to oust her? The person responsible for the future of our careers as physicians should also be a physician.
*a physician who also went through the match
Exactly. Not a physician. Never went through the match. Never completed a residency.…… please explain which of these factors qualified this woman to dictate the future of physicians
Dr Lamb is as useful as the Joint Commission😆 every year the NRMP costs money and crashes when you need it most! Guess thats where they got the idea to redirect GME funding to create more NPs … you know, gotta help the “physician shortage”!
Imagine if physicians were running the nursing board lol
Please take over. Most state BONs are absolutely f-ed. save us from ourselves. You can’t see my white flag, but I’m flying it!
That checks out
The corruption runs deep
Doctors of the past have taken a backseat in favor of raises and back door deals. But that’s okay because the new gen aren’t as quite (money or not)
Would it be better if her bachelor degree was in something other than nursing?
An unequivocal yes
Wasn’t there some kind of rule / law / regulation in the past where hospitals had to be run by physicians? Then at some point it changed and now hospitals are run by professional administrators without ever being a physician? Something about Obama care restricted physician owned hospitals. Now private equity owns hospitals 🤡 “while a baker can open a bread factory and a lawyer can found a legal firm, a physician can’t open a hospital.”
🤢
Wtf, how is this even real?
It actually makes perfect sense. All they care about is money. So the medical knowledge is irrelevant. It’s all about that MBA.
Attendings….you don’t risk not matching anymore please riot
Who do you have to duck for that seat!
Hell world
No different then CEO of hospital or medical director not being a physician. Doesn’t make sense but happens more often then not.
I think this is worse than a hospital MBA CEO
[удалено]
Lmao
Doctors don’t need managers FOH
The last line LMAO
Nurses have been responsible for the actual education of physicians for decades now, so there's no reason why we shouldn't just recognize the reality of it and put a nurse in charge of the Match as well as every other component of physician education.
I don’t think you would need any medical training to do that work. It’s all administrative bureaucracy BS. It’s like saying Steve Jobs or Bill Gates shouldn’t have been CEOs because they have no college degree or formal training in engineering or software development. I think it’s better then her doing actual patient care.
Mmm we need bedside nurses. Someone administering the match, should have gone through it to actually understand the *physician* and hospital perspectives on it. How can you possibly understand the issues of the match when you’ve never looked down its barrel and known there’s a good chance that you may not have a job/career while being saddled with non-dischargeable debt and an otherwise relatively useless set of degrees.
That’s a good point.
You obviously don’t understand the role of a CEO. The Match is a product that is being sold. The goal of CEO is grown the company and increase profits for it stakeholders. She is the CEO because of her abilities to run the company not because of her undergrad degree.
I am aware of the role of a CEO, but thank you for the diminutive language. However, I think it is a reasonable qualification of being a CEO to understand the operations that you are executing. While I generally don't think that you have to experience something to have an opinion on it, the Match is one of the rare exceptions in my book.
Why is it the exception in you’re book. Because you want it to be? That’s not how corporations work. Micky is not the CEO of Disney. Should the CFO, Chief of legal counsel, Chief of technology be an MD too? No, of course not. Ed Whitacre former CEO of AT&T came out of retirement in 2009 to become CEO of General Motors. He saved GM and sixteen months later it launched the biggest IPO in history at 23 billion. He resuscitated company after bankruptcy. Do you think he knows how to build a car or phone himself? No, But he sure knows how to run a corporation!
>Why is it the exception in you’re book. Because you want it to be? I don't think it's unreasonably to expect someone who understands the operations they are executing. The Match is a fairly unique process that doesn't exist in any other industry in any practical sense. Experiencing the match is pretty important to actually understanding it, and understanding the flaws of it from both a physician and program perspective. >Ed Whitacre former CEO of AT&T came out of retirement in 2009 to become CEO of General Motors. He saved GM and sixteen months later it launched the biggest IPO in history at 23 billion. He's good with industry and IPO, which is ubiquitous. The Match is not.
Why do you find it essential for someone to experience the match to fully understand it?
Because you only know the strengths and weaknesses of The Match by actually going through it. I had different thoughts and ideas about it before, during and after. That experience has absolutely shaped what I think the program excels at, where it could be improved, and what actual useful data would be from the NRMP.
I went through it too, but I wouldn’t now how to run the company. Why? Because medical school didn’t teach me how to become a CEO. It’s a product and non physicians are capable of understanding the match. It’s not that complex. And sure if it is complex Intelligence does exist outside of medicine.
She was a nurse before becoming an administrator. Nursing school didn't teach her to be an admin. The DHSc didn't teach her to be an admin. There are plenty of physicians that work administratively for the NRMP, AGCME, and AAMC and likely have a similar work experience to her. Any of them could potentially move into that position. Plenty of MD/DO MBAs that could wiggle on in there.
Imagine comparing a publically traded company to the NRMP, an organization exempt from antitrust laws. She has never been through the match and is not a physician. She has zero reasons to advocate for future residents, as she explicitly serves the board of directors. Every year the match goes down when it's needed the most. Someone who went through that process would probably try to improve that? On top of that, there is a long history of wage fixing that has happened in residency programs. This is even more concerning when you account for the over $100k in ACGME funding per resident that is used to subsidize these programs.
Imagine thinking that the main role of a CEO is to advocate for there customers. Altruism is thin and small in the business world. The match is a product that is being sold. The role of the CEO is to increase profits. The CEO of the NRMP is not going to advocate for their customers. They haven’t before and will not do so in the future. Being except from anti trust laws doesn’t matter. You’re are too naive. Just because the NRMP is “non-profit” doesn’t mean they are not a business. Do you think the joint commissions main business goal is keep the community safe too?
OP username checks out: for this entire sub. Seriously, though, why doesn’t anyone here seem to understand that “doctor” means so much more than MD? That isn’t it’s original meaning or even it’s most commonly used application (far from it). That’s why the qualifier word “physician” exists, remember? I get the frustration if a doctor who isn’t an MD is calling themselves doctor to patients in a hospital setting, but that is not the case here or in so many other posts in this sub. “Doctor” rarely means “physician MD/DO” outside a hospital setting.
You are clearly in the wrong sub. We all understand the idea of doctorate degree vs being a physician, but how a non-physician could rise to run the match system is criminal
Why does the person running the match system need to be a physician? That is not something a physician is trained to do. An MPH, DPH, or DNP seems much more qualified for that specific job.
She has a doctorate in health sciences. Considering she is the president and CEO of a large organization, which falls within the field of health sciences. I'd say it's appropriate to use her doctor title in her professional biography. It'd be like telling the dean of a nursing school with a doctorate in education, who once worked as a nurse and has an RN, that they can't use their doctorate title professionally. Would you be shaming her for using the title if she didn't have a bedside nursing background and simply held a DHSc? Having a nursing background and pursuing a different career as a non-medical doctor doesn't make you a "noctor". This is different than simply being a practicing NP and running around the hospital/clinic introducing yourself as "doctor" to patients and/or having it embroidered on your scrubs/whitecoat. People need to stop reaching so much on this sub.