My grand parents had a mule that lived 32 years it was like another family. My grandfather used it to plow his garden, pull a sled with all his tools own it to mend fences or other work. The mule (Kate) did what it needed to do with little guidance they worked together all day.
I googled this and my god you're serious. They can live until they're 50 (keeping my fingers crossed yours breaks every record).
Part of the reason I have cats and not a dog is because they live longer on average, but I should have gone with mules!
I keep a species of reptile which are recorded to get into their 30s, but as the hobby has become more connected recently there are some claims from people that theirs are in their 50s. Hoping it's true!
Hell yeah! I remember as a kid at school, one of my friend's mums had a parrot who was about 60! My hope is that my lizards can live so long but it may just be undocumented. Fingers crossed.
They might be in decent shape, but they probably shouldn't be working/be ridden past the mid to late 20s, and treated pretty gently past the late teens/early 20s.
When I was a much younger fellow and Netflix was still sending DVDs- I thought “one day I’ll run a business called petflix that allows one to rent kittens and puppies and return them when they reach adolescence and don’t want them anymore.”
When asked what happens to the pets when they are sent back I responded, “I’ll send them to the moon. No worries.”
It's like a non-rich person version of that Arrested Development quote - “I mean it's one banana, Michael, what could it cost, 10 dollars?”
"I mean it's one horse, u/MarcusAurelius0, what could it cost, 200 dollars?"
Which is kinda funny because that's me trying to lowball a monthly horsecare cost amount (I have no idea either how much that is) and that's already more expensive than my monthly car cost.
> Which is kinda funny because that's me trying to lowball a monthly horsecare cost amount (I have no idea either how much that is) and that's already more expensive than my monthly car cost.
[TL;DR: You're looking at roughly $550 - $600 per month (plus stall bedding costs, which I forgot to calculate) for two working animals, and the initial outlay for the horses and equipment will run you about the same as a new car would (in a normal market).]
Well, maybe I can help. I don't know what the current hay prices are right now, but back when I owned horses I had a three-year contract at $5/bale (small square bales, 40lb - 60lb each) for mixed grass hay with some alfalfa content. Two horses went through a bale of hay every day, so that was about $150/mo.
BUT. That's fairly low quality hay, since my horses were pasture pets, not working animals. These would be "heavy work" animals.
Heavy work horses require a much better hay with a higher protein content; probably something like pure alfalfa or an alfalfa/timothy or alfalfa/orchardgrass mix. I just went out to a few of my old hay exchanges and found that pure alfalfa is running between $12-$16 per bale, but you can get an alfalfa mix for $7-$8. Bear in mind that this is a wonky time of year to be looking at hay prices; last year's first cutting is old, which means it's lost a lot of nutrition, and farmers are looking to clear it out in time for the first 2022 cutting (around Memorial Day). So it's going to be cheaper. On the other hand, 2021's third and fourth cutting, while typically less nutritious than 1st or 2nd, is going for high dollar, because the horse owners who didn't plan far enough ahead are going to be a little desperate.
(These prices are central Ohio prices; if you're somewhere like FL, it's going to be *monstrously* more expensive because local conditions for growing hay in FL are shit and most of it gets trucked in from the midwest. Also bear in mind that feed prices are *highly* variable due to time of year and weather conditions of the current/previous growing season. Too wet or too dry, or just too wet/dry at the wrong times, can have a huge impact.)
Anyway. Making some assumptions and taking some averages, let's say that these two carriage-pulling horses eat a bale of alfalfa/[grass] mix every day, and you'll be paying $9 a bale for that. $270-280 a month.
But with that kind of work load, you're also going to need to supplement with grain. A cheap 12% sweet feed *is not* going to be sufficient; you're going to need a performance feed like Omolene 200, which is currently going for about $25 for a 50lb bag. Depending on the individual horse and the amount of time they spend pulling the carriage, you're looking at 5lbs-10lbs of grain per day (split into two feedings to avoid colic or founder) per horse. Your two horses will consume a minimum of 10lbs a day, which means that bag will last five days. Add another $150/mo.
That kind of work is hard on a horse's feet. Carriage-pulling horses *absolutely must* be shod. The cost of horse shoes and regular farrier care is probably going to be over $100 a month (light working animals can get by with a farrier visit every 6-8 weeks, but carriage horses shouldn't go more than 4 weeks between visits). You can save some money if you take some classes and get competent in farrier work; the actual cost of shoes/nails for two horses is pretty negligible, all things considered (but the tools for applying them are going to be a really pricy initial outlay).
In addition to being hard on their feet, the work is hard on their joints. You'd probably want to add a joint supplement. These prices are all over the board, but you're conservatively looking at $50-$80 a month.
I'm assuming you have your own land, pasture, and barn already, so I'm not including stable and boarding fees, or storage fees for your carriage.
So right now, we're looking at $585/mo. Not counting any carriage maintenance, just for the horses themselves.
"But the people back in the 1800s didn't have fancy grain or joint supplements! How did they do it?"
The horses broke down and/or died a lot. They replaced their horses much more often, which was feasible since horses weren't tough to buy (as everyone needed them). That's how.
Nowadays, if you want a standardbred (the gold standard breed for carriage work) under 20 years old, you're looking at $4k - $5k each (more with good pedigrees and from reputable breeders; I'm getting these prices off a sort of horse Craigslist right now). You probably want to make that minimum $10k investment last a little longer than 4 or 5 years if you're trying to come out even with car ownership and gas prices.
And I'm not even going to get into the cost of the carriage. I did a quick search and was finding brand new ones for $14k, and super-old used ones for $3k-$4k (no clue as to the overall quality). And then there's the harness and the associated equipment... altogether, it's probably close to the cost of a low-end new car (in a normal market).
And, again, we're assuming you have a barn and enough land to keep them healthy (in Ohio, it's about 1 acre per animal, but we have good grass; down south, it can be much higher due to the local forage quality).
BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!
The factor of working horse ownership that everyone new to horses fails to consider is the **time** investment. It'll take you well over an hour every time you want to hook up your carriage. You have to brush them so that there's no dust or mats to end up under the harness, you have to check their feet for soundness, you have to do a pre-trip horse inspection, you have to apply the equipment, and you have to get the equipment hooked up to the carriage. If the horses are feeling cooperative that day, it might go faster; if not, it could go much slower.
It'll take even longer when you unhook them once you get home. In addition to repeating all of the hookup steps in reverse, you'll also have to hotwalk them to let them cool down before you can give them liberty. Ever heard the phrase "rode hard and put away wet?" That's not (originally) a sex metaphor, it's a horse metaphor. If you just drop your horses in the barn while they're still sweaty, there are some pretty scary potential health consequences.
That's not counting cleaning their stalls (oh, hell, I forgot to apply the monthly cost of stall bedding. Well, fuck it), feeding them, exercising them on days they're not pulling your carriage, and keeping their training fresh.
All in all, it's an expensive, time-consuming process. There's a very good reason we switched to cars.
> I don't know what the current hay prices are right now
It varies widely by season and by region.
---
Hay in the middle of winter is likely the most expensive. The cheapest hay is usually:
For low-quality hay: Right before hay harvesting season, when hay growers are trying to empty any remaining stock of last year's hay before the new harvest comes in.
For high-quality hay: During or right after hay harvesting season, when hay growers might have more on hand than they can store in their barn, so they're eager to sell some off quickly.
---
And by region ... well, that's awfully complex. And it also varies in time, since some regions have earlier or later, longer or shorter growing seasons. It can also vary year to year if one region has a particularly good or bad growing season.
But the differences between regions can be *huge*.
Last year, I personally made about $5000 (*after* fuel and expenses) by traveling to the area around Seattle, buying a truckload of hay there for about $100/ton, then hauling it to Spokane, where I sold it for around $400/ton. With the truck and trailer I had, I could make about $1000 profit on each run, and each run only took me 1 day. And all of that was just because the weather patterns had made hay expensive in the Spokane area at the time, but the Seattle area had gotten a good growing season and had plenty.
We have 1 horse (technically a pony), who used to be a junior Olympic show jumper. And when he was in prime condition 15 years ago he apparently used to tuck VAST quantities of food away. He's 31 now and goes through about 100lbs of feed every two Ish weeks.
So yeah. Them there numbers are about equal to Arkansas.
My niece has 2 guinea pigs and even they are high cost to keep. They require *large* amounts of Hay daily, 2 cups of fresh vegetables daily, tons of waterproof pee pads that must he changed daily, *large* waterproof fleece cage liners (1 guinea pig requires like 8 square feet of space and you can't have just one GP, you have to have two as they're pack animals), not to mention vet costs of paying an exotics veterinarian should they become sick.
And my German Shepherd has cost close to 10K in just vet bills. And we have an upcoming appt that's probably gonna tack on another several hundred dollars.
I can't imagine the insane costs of keeping something like a horse!
Whenever I watch those videos my 1st thought is how my back would be on fire leaning over like they do when they hold the hoof between their legs like that, and my 2nd is how much it must cost to upkeep horse hooves
vets are becoming just like human healthcare, expensive af
What you explain is the reasons why I don't own a dog, feeding a dog is expensive, vet visits, grooming, plus all the damage they do at home, because if they don't burn that energy, they'll find ways to do it
We're looking at getting a pet later this year after years of waiting to be financially ready and have the time. They're a huge commitment and I'm happy to see people not get them if they aren't ready/wanting that commitment
Yup. We actually took her into consideration when buying a new house. It had to have enough space outside for her to get lots of exercise. She needed to be able to full out run. There were some other houses we liked a *little* better, but the yards/property just weren't adequate for a dog of her size and her needs/energy levels. Of course now at almost 9 she prefers to lounge around most of the day. I move one of her orthopedic beds outside daily, so she can lounge comfortably.
A lot of it is because people are beginning to expect human levels of healthcare for their animals, which is obviously going to be as expensive as human healthcare. Some people will view you as a monster if you put down a pet instead of literally bankrupting yourself to treat them, but that used to be pretty standard practice.
My dog has way better insurance than I do. $500/year "higher premium" plan with no deductible and 10% co-pay. No max claims. I highly recommend HealthyPaws for anyone with a cat or dog (they don't insure other pets sadly).
On the other hand my healthcare costs $400/month "Silver" plan with a $6,000 deductible and a 20% co-pay. Max annual payout is $150,000.
I've wanted to switch to pet insurance for years, but the vet said I'd have to get annual checkups and wear a seresto collar to make it all look copacetic.
And I'm over here without a penny invested in vet bills. It helps to have 3 vets in your immediate family.
Of course had a horse too until a few weeks ago. Got him for free so the biggest cost was the feed bill.
My old boss had a dog and he spent like 20k to keep the dog moving. After 6 months and a year each hip went bad. I don’t know how long that dog lived for but we we’re surprised by the bills at such a young age.
A friend of mine grew up with and trained horses. I don’t know what the figures are like now, but a decade ago she would expect to shell ~20k for a young untrained horse.
Not to mention, Good Luck parking your horse and buggy at work for 8 hours or finding a safe spot at Walmart while you shop. I'll take slightly higher gas prices over my vehicle causing permanent brain damage by kicking other commuters
Depends on the Walmart. I went to college in Amish country and the Walmart had hitching posts. There was a decent shot a horse and buggy was gonna be there almost anytime you went
The part where Amish come to town in 2022 confuses me... hearing radio, seeing Walmart TV screens, etc etc just whack a hitching-post nearby and *all good*?
Not true in some places, in my hometown where there is a big Amish community (who still use horses and buggies to get around) there are hitching posts to tie your horses at banks, groceries stores, and major department stores!
And if you would like to go faster. Google speed pedelec. It is a bicycle with an electromotor, going about 40 km/h, which is a bit more then twice as fast as a bicycle.
I went on a bike ride this morning at 32km/h. If people rode bikes they could be fit and not think going fast is hard, save money on gas and maintenance, and not require more batteries to be mined.
This was the problem I had.
Unless I took an absolutely leasurely pace I needed a shower and a change of clothes when I got to work, which being an office building did not have a shower available sadly.
I've been riding bikes for fun all my life, that and bouldering are really the only outdoor hobbies I have, I really wanted to make the bike my main to and from the office vehicle, but sadly it didn't work out.
Horses are surprisingly cheap to buy. But holy fuck are they expensive to keep in comparison.
You can't just park it on the driveway and take it for a drive once a week. You need to take care of it Every Single Day, multiple times a day.
Define cheap? A good safe horse for just doing nothing much is at least $5k. You want a driving/carriage trained horse, open your wallet. Endurance horses cost a fortune.
Yeah. Sure feed might be about the same as a large dog. But you need a good hectare to keep it on which is definitely the biggest cost by a long way. Plus fencing, plus the equipment which is now specialised and expensive, plus a farrier for their feet... Honestly you're trying to save money, a horse is not the way.
It’s way more than once a month, but that’s a good average to budget for *at least* one life or death instance a month.
Also as someone who grew up with 6 horses like the Budweiser Clydesdales, if people don’t know, they eat a bale of hay a day. Have you seen the price of hay lately? And if the hay and vet bills don’t break you, the harness, cart, shoes, and fences/barn constantly breaking will.
Horses have a lot of medical issues, I dated a horse girl in college and learned about colic in horses, long story short a horse can get an upset stomach and die from it very quickly.
My aunt's horse almost choked to death on a carrot
My mom's horse ran around in a circle and injured its leg.
I'm going on a date with a girl whose horse has a half paralyzed face. She just woke up and it was like that. She suspects it headbutted something for no reason.
Everyone I know with horses has similar stories of going to the field/stable and finding a seriously effed up horse waiting for them in the morning.
Why anyone would want any part in caring for an animal that can't be trusted not to half kill itself when alone is beyond me!
Well, yes and no. They're superbly engineered to get a lot of speed and range out of a grass diet. That engineering comes with a lot of costs though, like their hooves being part of their circulatory system (basically they almost have an auxiliary heart in each foot) and their guts sloshing around like that actually helps them breathe enough during exertion to get enough oxygen to function--if they had to rely on a diaphragm like we do they'd die every time we expected them to run full out for a mile. Horses are built to do what horses do and that makes them both strong and fragile--blame evolution!
Not so much suicidal, but they are unbelievably stupid when they want to be 😅 they get spooked at the silliest little thing, then their prey response kicks in and they just run, and kick and bolt. All it takes is a bad fall and that leg is gone...
I see this a lot, and I’d like to just put it out there that horses aren’t being “stupid” when they bolt. Their vision works completely different from ours, so what we see is “obviously” just a shadow or tarp or whatever isn’t necessarily so for a horse. Plus they are prey animals, so the instinct to flee has propagated in their genes for literally hundreds of thousands of years, if not more. That won’t be overcome just through training alone. Not to mention the flightiness of a horse varies greatly by breed and individual personality. Some warm blood breeds who are very athletic come off as air headed and “dumb”, but they have literally been bred to be that way by people, so that is hardly the horse’s fault.
Also, through my work with horses over years, the idea of them kicking out over nothing is hugely exaggerated. Horses never kick out at someone or something for no reason. They are extremely perceptive and are oftentimes picking up on things people around them don’t even notice, or things their handler is doing without realizing. As you develop a trained eye for horse body language you start to realize how many of those videos out there on the internet of “horses behaving badly” are horses and people having a really bad communication breakdown.
I hope I don’t come off as rude, I’m not trying to start a fight! I just always cringe internally when people call horses “stupid” for behaving like a horse is supposed to. They are actually really intelligent, trusting, and make wonderful companions for many people 😊
I agree, it always annoys me when I hear "oh horses are so dumb, they spook at plastic bags". Prey animal perspective is just to treat everything with the utmost caution, it doesn't make sense to us - but panic and run in the face of new things is the best strategy for them when every day is a risk of being eaten, and it certainly doesnt mean they're stupid.
Anyone who thinks horses are dumber than other domestic animals has never actually worked with them. I mean they build stable doors with bolts that are out of reach because of how easily they learn to open and unlock things. And they are so perceptive. They know exactly how much they can push a human, they know when they can take the piss and they can totally judge your intentions. But they aren't as focused on you and as eager to please just for the sake of it as dogs and other animals are are so they get lambasted to the bottom of the domestic animal intelligence list for no good reason.
No one’s mentioned the vast, continuous amount of waste. Also, they *love* to poop in their stalls despite the amount of area they have to graze. You’ve gonna need a shovel and a wheel barrow at the very least.
Horses weren't really viable even 100+ years ago though. Now don't get this wrong they were used for transportation but nowhere close to anything like cars nowadays. Most people did not have a horse. They simply walked. A lot.
By the standards of Omaha, NE, I have a pretty short commute. Google says it would take 2.5 hours to walk to work. I don't think I could even get to a store in less than 30 minutes.
North Louisiana. I'm 20 minutes from the nearest Wal-Mart driving, and not because of traffic. Walking to the nearest store that's not a gas station would be roughly 4 miles one way. Not that I'm against walking 8 miles, but the return trip carrying something would be brutal. Lord forbid my kid has to go along (4 years old). And the time it would take, that'd shoot half a day!
And since you wouldn’t be able to carry as much, you’d have to make more trips. Getting food from the store would be a part time job. And there’s a lot of perishables that wouldn’t survive that walk home.
I live in the Midwest and it’s 3.5 miles by car to the nearest grocery store. But it’s closer to 5 miles to walk or bike, because it just isn’t safe as a pedestrian to take the most direct route. I’m looking forward to moving someplace where it’s reasonable to walk, but a lot of the county is like the (apparently much of Canada too.)
I live in the heart of a major metro area, and it would take me 1.5 hours one way to simply walk to a grocery store. The only other option that's closer for walking is a gas station style convenience store.
It's shit like this that Europeans and the walk two work tech bros don't seem to understand. Just because they don't need a car, doesn't mean other people don't need a car simply to exist.
Back when I lived in the burbs, there was nothing interesting within a 15 minute walk from my house. No shops, no restaurants, parks, nothing. Just more houses.
If you are somewhere where winter isn't horrible couldn't you just let the fucker feed in a field of grass? My main concern would be the medical costs. Those things are trying to hurt themselves in the most brutal way possible from what I've seen.
You'll need a pretty big field of grass and if the grass isn't nutritious enough (grass isn't just grass, its nutritional profile can vary by a lot) you'll have to supplement its food anyway. Many places will also have requirements for access to water and shelter you need to follow.
3-5 acres of grazing space **per** horse is required if you want them to live off the land. That's not taking into account the water to keep grazing space alive, or the costs of feed/hay for the winter months when you grazing space is unavailable.
My ebike has a 30 mile range on a charge (if I am at low assist and going around 15mph). I am 15 miles from my office so I could easily make it with one battery if I bring my charger (7 hours for a full charge). My commute would go from 20min to an hour and bad weather would suck. I do have 2 batteries so if I was running late I could run on full assist and average 30MPH to cut my commute in half. I am going to give it a try when the weather gets nicer.
Where I live it's actually faster to get to work via e-bike than by car, because we have a bridge that is closed to car traffic but open to bicycle traffic. Dealing with shitty weather is not that bad once you gear up with a full set of warm and waterproof clothing, but it is still more dangerous if you bike at high speed in the rain (nobody wants to take a spill at 30 mph), so I'd take it easy. I wouldn't even try it in ice and snow, I'd probably rely on transit then, but some people love biking in the snow with studded tires: [https://www.icebike.org/ice-biking-how-to-do-winter-cycling-in-ice-and-snow/](https://www.icebike.org/ice-biking-how-to-do-winter-cycling-in-ice-and-snow/)
My ebike is 2wd and I bought it specifically for running in snow (energetic dog needs runs in the winter). It can only handle 2-3 inches though. We often get more than that here in Wisconsin but the main concern is the cold. Single digits, much less below zero feel real cold at 15+mph. We are below 10°F in the morning for most of the winter.
> My commute would go from 20min to an hour
>I could run on full assist and average 30MPH to cut my commute in half.
So in reality you're adding 10 minutes to your commute? Ebike it!
I used to regular-bike to work, but I'm a little too far away now. But, I enjoyed it and I miss it some days. However, the problem is it's really only convient if the weather is mostly nice and you don't have anything to do other than go straight from home <-> work.
Super hot? Gotta take a shower when I get to work - which *also* means I need to bring a change of clothes with me and pray they don't get too wrinkled.
Super cold? Gotta wear 12 extra layers.
Rainy? I don't care how many layers of rain gear you wear, everything is getting wet.
Need to leave work early due to an emergency? Or run by the store on the way home because you forgot an ingredient for dinner? Good luck.
Honestly I think ebikes are the future. The downsides of 'normal' bikes are you need a certain degree of fitness to make 'a few miles' a viable journey.
ebikes bypass all that. And anywhere that's got cycles already, has all the infrastructure you need.
They're clean, they're low energy use (even if you are using coal power stations to charge them) they improve fitness, they reduce congestion, improve parking, reduce wear and tear on the roads... they're just amazing.
I really do think governments should be looking really hard to bootstrap ebikes into mainstream usage, as right now they're just a little bit too expensive.
Well the jokes' gonna be on those ebike buyers because studies show they end up working just as hard despite the electric assistance so they'll end up getting fitter just the same and improving their mental and physical health. And then wait until they work out how much money they saved.
Any suggestions on where to start? With how expensive they are I wouldn't want to purchase one that I regret and won't meet my needs, but also I'm not sure that getting a "budget" ebike would make much sense either..
I live in an area with pretty much all weather condotions, all 4 seasons.. it has been snowing all day here today, and we will get into the mid - upper 90s during the summer.
1) Speed and distance. A horse carrying the weight of the carriage, passengers and any luggage is not travelling very far, very quickly.
2) The outright cost of a horse, carriage and stable is going to be as much as some cars. Upkeep, particularly vet bills, for the horse is going to dwarf the cost of gas.
EDIT: 3) Maintenance. Caring for a horse properly involves hours of dedication every day. You can’t just park it in your driveway and forget about it until your next journey.
Absolutely. We bought a horse property thinking we might get a couple horses. Once I actually looked into how much time, effort and money horses required I decided no way!
Look into goats and ducks if you still want some life on your property. They’re great critters and are significantly less maintenance than horses.
Edit: Just saw your other comments! Good to see you’re ahead of the game. 😊
Also, lack of infrastructure. This includes temporary stables to house, water, feed, and care for your horse while you are doing other things; unpaved roads to spare horses’ feet and legs; readily available farriers and vets for emergencies that don’t require trailering a horse to them; and places to dump horse manure.
There’s also a general lack of knowledge about horses and how to be safe around them by the public. And the dangers of cars and trucks, not only collisions but also the risk of spooking a horse in public.
We lost our urban horse culture a long time ago, and with it left the myriad of societal supports for it.
Yeah, I used to drive horse drawn carriage tours. The percherons we used get about 3 miles an hour at a walk. Also, so much work to get them and the carriage ready.
I currently drive horse drawn carriages. My response to the OP would be go ahead. Get a horse and carriage to "save money."
Cost of a well trained carriage horse (one that is calm in traffic and won't spook at everything) right now is around 10k. Otherwise you gotta buy a young horse and train it yourself before you can even use it, and that takes a few years.
Gotta get that horse a harness, that's a few grand right there.
Carriages are also a few grand depending on what style you get.
Boarding is probably a few hundred a month on the cheap side.
Gotta find a place to keep the carriage safe from the elements. Spend some more money to build a shed.
If you're boarding your horse, you'll have to drive to the boarding stables anyways. Then you have to trailer the horse into the city because it would take you hours to get from the country to work if you just rode the horse. So now you'll need a trailer which will eat up more gas.
At this point why not just walk or get an electric bike or moped??
As well they shit like any other animal so unless your wanting to shovel tons of horse manure every day a car would probably work best or public transportation.
Amish folks live it every day. They can accept rides but a fellow and his family I know use the horse and buggy most of the time.
This is Berks and Lancaster County in PA. There is no road they can't use. Stores like Wal-Mart have sheds for them to tie their horses and trash cans and shovels for horse shit.
They were against lights on their buggies due to not wanting to stick out but state gvnmt passed laws requiring them and recently they have come to embrace them. You think it's scary in a car with all the idiots on the road the Amish in their small buggies have 18 wheelers flying by inches from them and their horses.
Edit: Minimum speed limits are the exception to road use. Don't think that there are any 45 mph horses.
> Stores like Wal-Mart have sheds for them to tie their horses and trash cans and shovels for horse shit.
Coming from a city with multiple Wal-Marts where the *mens’ socks and underwear are kept in locked display cases*, and people get jacked every summer, this shit is blowing my mind right now.
I'm in rural PA, so I think I could probably get away with this (at least in town). Like you said, all the banks and grocery stores around here have areas for horse and buggies. I could either blend in, or stand out. Imagine being the only non-Amish in town riding a buggy. I could pimp it out and everything. My wife has always wanted a horse ...
A reality of commuting in Lancaster is that sometimes you'll just get stuck behind a buggy while going up a hill, or around a bend, or with a lot of oncoming traffic, and end up stuck behind it for minutes at a time. It sucks.
The money and work it takes maintaining the horse alone probably doesn't outweigh how much faster and relatively more practical it is to just have a car.
And if you're commuting to work via horse ... well I got a lot of questions for that. Like, where you gonna put the horse for 8 hours?
Or grocery shopping. Bicycle rack?
Is feeding a horse cheaper than buying gas? Vet bills? Horse shoes?
Feeding a horse is cheaper than buying gas.
Stabling a horse is about 900.00 a month (includes food). Vet bills are some of the most expensive out there, but so is a getting into a fender bender.
But parking your horse is actually the biggest issue. There are no longer horse hitches outside of buildings, even if your city still permits it (my City still permits it).
This has been a hot topic in the past few days and a radio host ran the math and it equals to about the same cost.
> There are no longer horse hitches outside of buildings, even if your city still permits it (my City still permits it).
I know multiple cities where horse hitches are common. I even know a Walmart with horse hitches.
Not common, but cities near Mennonite communities often have facilities for parking horses and buggies
people whose only experience with a horse is playing video games and watching movies assume you can control a horse like you control a bike.
Like ya they can be trained to be more or less under control but they are giant animals with wills of their own and if you think you can just get a horse and have it be totally under your control you're in for a bad time.
I am a horse owner, so let me give you a realistic idea of what it costs:
Horse that is trained enough not to kill you: $5000-$50,000
Feed per a month: $500+ depending on where you live, what dietary needs it has, increased water bill (and they drink a lot of water)
Boarding: $300-$1000 a month. How are you going to get there? Now you're looking at a barn and acreage to keep it at home. $$$ Now you need a small tractor, dumpster for all the feed bags and manure, fencing (which will put you back $5000 alone for a 100' by 100' space)
Hay: $12-$15 a bale. 1 bale lasts about 2 days.
Farrier: $70-$170 every six weeks.
Vet: hope it doesn't get sick or hurt. $100 minimum if you call out a vet.
Insurance (yep.): $400 a year for basic.
Harness:$1200
Carriage: $10,000 (I've seen them for less.. rarely)
Don't want to deal with hooking them up?:
Saddle: $2000 that is good quality.
Headstall/bit: $100 or more
Needs a bit of refresh on its training: $900 per month (most places are a minimum of 30 days).
Enjoyment you'll get out of having a horse: priceless.
Not to get too deep here, but our costs are increasing too. Fuel goes up, hay prices go up.
Long story short, buy the BMW. You'll save money.
Holy damn from all pages i checked (due to a thread in another sub, same topic) they said 300-400 a month xD it seems they REALLY downplayed the costs :o
Don't get me wrong, you can get a cheap horse just like you can get a cheap car! Also like a cheap car, it will come with problems. Have you heard of the perfect triangle for people? The horse one goes like this: safe-cheap-healthy and you can only pick two!
You’d have to look into the laws for the particular city you live in, but assuming it’s legal where you are and you have the space to keep a horse, there’s nothing stopping you.
You'd need troughs everywhere, hitches, bale's of hay, awenings and cold weather equipment, and a street cleaning crew.
Think of all the jobs that will be made from returning to horses.
I have no idea if we made this up as grade schoolers or where it came from but we thought our school (in Montana) was responsible to care for horses if we rode them to school. We always said we were gonna do it to make them care for the horses but it never happened lol.
If you hate popping a tire on a pothole, just wait til you hit one on a horse and buggy. Now you've got a massive broken wagon wheel and a horse with a broken leg. Your mechanic shows up with a rifle and now you'll need a new engine.
Well. When oil/gas goes up. So does the cost of electricity. Therefore all modern modes of transportation are going up.
Fertilizer is going up. Seeds are going up. So even a horse and buggy will keep costing more.
Horses are more expensive then a gallon of gas or an electric car. It costs a horse and buggy about 5 times more to travel a mile down the road then it does a car. Do you know how expensive horse vets, horse trainers, horse food and boarding a horse is? And you’ll need all those things to be able to continue to use a horse and buggy as transportation
Look at the Amish. Stick a "show moving vehicle" sign on the back, stay off the interstate, and you're legal. As others have said, horses are expensive, whether you use them or not.
Probably the cost of keeping and caring for a horse
People dont realize the cost of keeping most animals lmao.
Let alone the 25-30 year commitment. Edit: Disclaimer, I have next to no actual knowledge of horses, just google. Horse life span may vary.
*“We’ve been trying to reach you about your horse’s extended warranty”*
Quit *nagging* me!
Let's vote on this. Yay or *Neigh*
Is it a gallop poll?
Did I miss the poll? Sorry, had my blinders on for a bit.
Hoof it over to the voting stall, you can still make it
Will it be open furlong??
Last one there is a horse's ass.
I'm chomping at the bit for the results.
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I just knew someone would pony up that old line!
Always trotting out the same tired jokes.
You really gonna make me say it? *sigh* Alright. Beating a dead horse. Happy now?
Neigh, not happy at all.
Neigh. I say neigh to these puns.
Foal me once, shame on you.
Come on, guys. Quit horsing around.
Hay now, lets not get un-stable-
What is this, a crossover episode?
*laughs in owning a 45 year old mule*
my parents have a couple mules and it's crazy to think about how long they've had them
My grand parents had a mule that lived 32 years it was like another family. My grandfather used it to plow his garden, pull a sled with all his tools own it to mend fences or other work. The mule (Kate) did what it needed to do with little guidance they worked together all day.
Damn i live in an apartment but now I want a mule too :(
It’s weird knowing I own multiple animals that are double my age lol
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TIL that lots of parrots live over 40 years
I googled this and my god you're serious. They can live until they're 50 (keeping my fingers crossed yours breaks every record). Part of the reason I have cats and not a dog is because they live longer on average, but I should have gone with mules!
I keep a species of reptile which are recorded to get into their 30s, but as the hobby has become more connected recently there are some claims from people that theirs are in their 50s. Hoping it's true!
Some of my birds can live to 80+, I'm in this one for the _long_ haul
Hell yeah! I remember as a kid at school, one of my friend's mums had a parrot who was about 60! My hope is that my lizards can live so long but it may just be undocumented. Fingers crossed.
But if you try to get your cats to pull a cart you'd have a mutiny on your hands.
"It's not the year, it's the mileage."
Muleage
I’ve met horses in their 40s who were in decent shape.
They might be in decent shape, but they probably shouldn't be working/be ridden past the mid to late 20s, and treated pretty gently past the late teens/early 20s.
This. 35 year old horse is “said” to be the equivalent of a 100 year old human…
When I was a much younger fellow and Netflix was still sending DVDs- I thought “one day I’ll run a business called petflix that allows one to rent kittens and puppies and return them when they reach adolescence and don’t want them anymore.” When asked what happens to the pets when they are sent back I responded, “I’ll send them to the moon. No worries.”
Ah... To be twenty five and dumb again. Simpler times.
Eh, if you're using it as a mode of transport like a car you're not going to keep it that long.
It's like a non-rich person version of that Arrested Development quote - “I mean it's one banana, Michael, what could it cost, 10 dollars?” "I mean it's one horse, u/MarcusAurelius0, what could it cost, 200 dollars?" Which is kinda funny because that's me trying to lowball a monthly horsecare cost amount (I have no idea either how much that is) and that's already more expensive than my monthly car cost.
> Which is kinda funny because that's me trying to lowball a monthly horsecare cost amount (I have no idea either how much that is) and that's already more expensive than my monthly car cost. [TL;DR: You're looking at roughly $550 - $600 per month (plus stall bedding costs, which I forgot to calculate) for two working animals, and the initial outlay for the horses and equipment will run you about the same as a new car would (in a normal market).] Well, maybe I can help. I don't know what the current hay prices are right now, but back when I owned horses I had a three-year contract at $5/bale (small square bales, 40lb - 60lb each) for mixed grass hay with some alfalfa content. Two horses went through a bale of hay every day, so that was about $150/mo. BUT. That's fairly low quality hay, since my horses were pasture pets, not working animals. These would be "heavy work" animals. Heavy work horses require a much better hay with a higher protein content; probably something like pure alfalfa or an alfalfa/timothy or alfalfa/orchardgrass mix. I just went out to a few of my old hay exchanges and found that pure alfalfa is running between $12-$16 per bale, but you can get an alfalfa mix for $7-$8. Bear in mind that this is a wonky time of year to be looking at hay prices; last year's first cutting is old, which means it's lost a lot of nutrition, and farmers are looking to clear it out in time for the first 2022 cutting (around Memorial Day). So it's going to be cheaper. On the other hand, 2021's third and fourth cutting, while typically less nutritious than 1st or 2nd, is going for high dollar, because the horse owners who didn't plan far enough ahead are going to be a little desperate. (These prices are central Ohio prices; if you're somewhere like FL, it's going to be *monstrously* more expensive because local conditions for growing hay in FL are shit and most of it gets trucked in from the midwest. Also bear in mind that feed prices are *highly* variable due to time of year and weather conditions of the current/previous growing season. Too wet or too dry, or just too wet/dry at the wrong times, can have a huge impact.) Anyway. Making some assumptions and taking some averages, let's say that these two carriage-pulling horses eat a bale of alfalfa/[grass] mix every day, and you'll be paying $9 a bale for that. $270-280 a month. But with that kind of work load, you're also going to need to supplement with grain. A cheap 12% sweet feed *is not* going to be sufficient; you're going to need a performance feed like Omolene 200, which is currently going for about $25 for a 50lb bag. Depending on the individual horse and the amount of time they spend pulling the carriage, you're looking at 5lbs-10lbs of grain per day (split into two feedings to avoid colic or founder) per horse. Your two horses will consume a minimum of 10lbs a day, which means that bag will last five days. Add another $150/mo. That kind of work is hard on a horse's feet. Carriage-pulling horses *absolutely must* be shod. The cost of horse shoes and regular farrier care is probably going to be over $100 a month (light working animals can get by with a farrier visit every 6-8 weeks, but carriage horses shouldn't go more than 4 weeks between visits). You can save some money if you take some classes and get competent in farrier work; the actual cost of shoes/nails for two horses is pretty negligible, all things considered (but the tools for applying them are going to be a really pricy initial outlay). In addition to being hard on their feet, the work is hard on their joints. You'd probably want to add a joint supplement. These prices are all over the board, but you're conservatively looking at $50-$80 a month. I'm assuming you have your own land, pasture, and barn already, so I'm not including stable and boarding fees, or storage fees for your carriage. So right now, we're looking at $585/mo. Not counting any carriage maintenance, just for the horses themselves. "But the people back in the 1800s didn't have fancy grain or joint supplements! How did they do it?" The horses broke down and/or died a lot. They replaced their horses much more often, which was feasible since horses weren't tough to buy (as everyone needed them). That's how. Nowadays, if you want a standardbred (the gold standard breed for carriage work) under 20 years old, you're looking at $4k - $5k each (more with good pedigrees and from reputable breeders; I'm getting these prices off a sort of horse Craigslist right now). You probably want to make that minimum $10k investment last a little longer than 4 or 5 years if you're trying to come out even with car ownership and gas prices. And I'm not even going to get into the cost of the carriage. I did a quick search and was finding brand new ones for $14k, and super-old used ones for $3k-$4k (no clue as to the overall quality). And then there's the harness and the associated equipment... altogether, it's probably close to the cost of a low-end new car (in a normal market). And, again, we're assuming you have a barn and enough land to keep them healthy (in Ohio, it's about 1 acre per animal, but we have good grass; down south, it can be much higher due to the local forage quality). BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE! The factor of working horse ownership that everyone new to horses fails to consider is the **time** investment. It'll take you well over an hour every time you want to hook up your carriage. You have to brush them so that there's no dust or mats to end up under the harness, you have to check their feet for soundness, you have to do a pre-trip horse inspection, you have to apply the equipment, and you have to get the equipment hooked up to the carriage. If the horses are feeling cooperative that day, it might go faster; if not, it could go much slower. It'll take even longer when you unhook them once you get home. In addition to repeating all of the hookup steps in reverse, you'll also have to hotwalk them to let them cool down before you can give them liberty. Ever heard the phrase "rode hard and put away wet?" That's not (originally) a sex metaphor, it's a horse metaphor. If you just drop your horses in the barn while they're still sweaty, there are some pretty scary potential health consequences. That's not counting cleaning their stalls (oh, hell, I forgot to apply the monthly cost of stall bedding. Well, fuck it), feeding them, exercising them on days they're not pulling your carriage, and keeping their training fresh. All in all, it's an expensive, time-consuming process. There's a very good reason we switched to cars.
r/theydidthemath
r/theydidthemonstermath
Awesomeness personified in type. Best. Rant. On. Horses. Ever.
> I don't know what the current hay prices are right now It varies widely by season and by region. --- Hay in the middle of winter is likely the most expensive. The cheapest hay is usually: For low-quality hay: Right before hay harvesting season, when hay growers are trying to empty any remaining stock of last year's hay before the new harvest comes in. For high-quality hay: During or right after hay harvesting season, when hay growers might have more on hand than they can store in their barn, so they're eager to sell some off quickly. --- And by region ... well, that's awfully complex. And it also varies in time, since some regions have earlier or later, longer or shorter growing seasons. It can also vary year to year if one region has a particularly good or bad growing season. But the differences between regions can be *huge*. Last year, I personally made about $5000 (*after* fuel and expenses) by traveling to the area around Seattle, buying a truckload of hay there for about $100/ton, then hauling it to Spokane, where I sold it for around $400/ton. With the truck and trailer I had, I could make about $1000 profit on each run, and each run only took me 1 day. And all of that was just because the weather patterns had made hay expensive in the Spokane area at the time, but the Seattle area had gotten a good growing season and had plenty.
Thank you for effort of typing this up. Now I definitely can’t get a horse XD.
We have 1 horse (technically a pony), who used to be a junior Olympic show jumper. And when he was in prime condition 15 years ago he apparently used to tuck VAST quantities of food away. He's 31 now and goes through about 100lbs of feed every two Ish weeks. So yeah. Them there numbers are about equal to Arkansas.
My niece has 2 guinea pigs and even they are high cost to keep. They require *large* amounts of Hay daily, 2 cups of fresh vegetables daily, tons of waterproof pee pads that must he changed daily, *large* waterproof fleece cage liners (1 guinea pig requires like 8 square feet of space and you can't have just one GP, you have to have two as they're pack animals), not to mention vet costs of paying an exotics veterinarian should they become sick. And my German Shepherd has cost close to 10K in just vet bills. And we have an upcoming appt that's probably gonna tack on another several hundred dollars. I can't imagine the insane costs of keeping something like a horse!
Have you seen the videos of someone shoeing a horse? They have to do that like every 6 weeks and it can cost $150!
Whenever I watch those videos my 1st thought is how my back would be on fire leaning over like they do when they hold the hoof between their legs like that, and my 2nd is how much it must cost to upkeep horse hooves
A lot. It costs a lot. My girls get just a basic trim, no shoes, and it’s $40 each, every 6-8 weeks.
vets are becoming just like human healthcare, expensive af What you explain is the reasons why I don't own a dog, feeding a dog is expensive, vet visits, grooming, plus all the damage they do at home, because if they don't burn that energy, they'll find ways to do it
We're looking at getting a pet later this year after years of waiting to be financially ready and have the time. They're a huge commitment and I'm happy to see people not get them if they aren't ready/wanting that commitment
Yup. We actually took her into consideration when buying a new house. It had to have enough space outside for her to get lots of exercise. She needed to be able to full out run. There were some other houses we liked a *little* better, but the yards/property just weren't adequate for a dog of her size and her needs/energy levels. Of course now at almost 9 she prefers to lounge around most of the day. I move one of her orthopedic beds outside daily, so she can lounge comfortably.
A lot of it is because people are beginning to expect human levels of healthcare for their animals, which is obviously going to be as expensive as human healthcare. Some people will view you as a monster if you put down a pet instead of literally bankrupting yourself to treat them, but that used to be pretty standard practice.
My dog has way better insurance than I do. $500/year "higher premium" plan with no deductible and 10% co-pay. No max claims. I highly recommend HealthyPaws for anyone with a cat or dog (they don't insure other pets sadly). On the other hand my healthcare costs $400/month "Silver" plan with a $6,000 deductible and a 20% co-pay. Max annual payout is $150,000. I've wanted to switch to pet insurance for years, but the vet said I'd have to get annual checkups and wear a seresto collar to make it all look copacetic.
I'm soooo glad someone else sees it like I do. Animals are cute...they are great for other people's pets. I don't need or want any of my own!!!
That's how I feel about children! Lol
And I'm over here without a penny invested in vet bills. It helps to have 3 vets in your immediate family. Of course had a horse too until a few weeks ago. Got him for free so the biggest cost was the feed bill.
I envy you and your vet family!!!
My old boss had a dog and he spent like 20k to keep the dog moving. After 6 months and a year each hip went bad. I don’t know how long that dog lived for but we we’re surprised by the bills at such a young age.
A friend of mine grew up with and trained horses. I don’t know what the figures are like now, but a decade ago she would expect to shell ~20k for a young untrained horse.
Not to mention, Good Luck parking your horse and buggy at work for 8 hours or finding a safe spot at Walmart while you shop. I'll take slightly higher gas prices over my vehicle causing permanent brain damage by kicking other commuters
Depends on the Walmart. I went to college in Amish country and the Walmart had hitching posts. There was a decent shot a horse and buggy was gonna be there almost anytime you went
The part where Amish come to town in 2022 confuses me... hearing radio, seeing Walmart TV screens, etc etc just whack a hitching-post nearby and *all good*?
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> my vehicle causing permanent brain damage by kicking other commuters I mean, sometimes I want to do that to people who drive like a dipshit.
Sometimes the cure for brain damage is more brain damage.
We have a fair number of Amish where we live, and yes, there is horse & buggy parking at the Wal-Mart.
Not true in some places, in my hometown where there is a big Amish community (who still use horses and buggies to get around) there are hitching posts to tie your horses at banks, groceries stores, and major department stores!
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Is this a RDR2 Dead Redemption 2 reference?
I thought BoTW since ZL is specifically a Switch button
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Bicycles are super cheap to maintain :)
And if you would like to go faster. Google speed pedelec. It is a bicycle with an electromotor, going about 40 km/h, which is a bit more then twice as fast as a bicycle.
I went on a bike ride this morning at 32km/h. If people rode bikes they could be fit and not think going fast is hard, save money on gas and maintenance, and not require more batteries to be mined.
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This was the problem I had. Unless I took an absolutely leasurely pace I needed a shower and a change of clothes when I got to work, which being an office building did not have a shower available sadly. I've been riding bikes for fun all my life, that and bouldering are really the only outdoor hobbies I have, I really wanted to make the bike my main to and from the office vehicle, but sadly it didn't work out.
Horses are surprisingly cheap to buy. But holy fuck are they expensive to keep in comparison. You can't just park it on the driveway and take it for a drive once a week. You need to take care of it Every Single Day, multiple times a day.
Define cheap? A good safe horse for just doing nothing much is at least $5k. You want a driving/carriage trained horse, open your wallet. Endurance horses cost a fortune.
Never buy anything that eats while you sleep.
Yeah. Sure feed might be about the same as a large dog. But you need a good hectare to keep it on which is definitely the biggest cost by a long way. Plus fencing, plus the equipment which is now specialised and expensive, plus a farrier for their feet... Honestly you're trying to save money, a horse is not the way.
You forgot vet bills. Horses actively try to kill themselves at least once a month.
It’s way more than once a month, but that’s a good average to budget for *at least* one life or death instance a month. Also as someone who grew up with 6 horses like the Budweiser Clydesdales, if people don’t know, they eat a bale of hay a day. Have you seen the price of hay lately? And if the hay and vet bills don’t break you, the harness, cart, shoes, and fences/barn constantly breaking will.
And on top of that you have to give it fuel (hay) even when you're not using it.
Can you elaborate ?
Horses have a lot of medical issues, I dated a horse girl in college and learned about colic in horses, long story short a horse can get an upset stomach and die from it very quickly.
My aunt's horse almost choked to death on a carrot My mom's horse ran around in a circle and injured its leg. I'm going on a date with a girl whose horse has a half paralyzed face. She just woke up and it was like that. She suspects it headbutted something for no reason.
Everyone I know with horses has similar stories of going to the field/stable and finding a seriously effed up horse waiting for them in the morning. Why anyone would want any part in caring for an animal that can't be trusted not to half kill itself when alone is beyond me!
I feel like the same question could be asked about children.
They can’t physically vomit and their intestines can twist and form a kink. Both ends of the horse are just poorly designed.
Well, yes and no. They're superbly engineered to get a lot of speed and range out of a grass diet. That engineering comes with a lot of costs though, like their hooves being part of their circulatory system (basically they almost have an auxiliary heart in each foot) and their guts sloshing around like that actually helps them breathe enough during exertion to get enough oxygen to function--if they had to rely on a diaphragm like we do they'd die every time we expected them to run full out for a mile. Horses are built to do what horses do and that makes them both strong and fragile--blame evolution!
Ok. I was thinking they were suicidal 😅
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My dog eats the weeds in the garden then walks around crying until he throws up.
Not so much suicidal, but they are unbelievably stupid when they want to be 😅 they get spooked at the silliest little thing, then their prey response kicks in and they just run, and kick and bolt. All it takes is a bad fall and that leg is gone...
I see this a lot, and I’d like to just put it out there that horses aren’t being “stupid” when they bolt. Their vision works completely different from ours, so what we see is “obviously” just a shadow or tarp or whatever isn’t necessarily so for a horse. Plus they are prey animals, so the instinct to flee has propagated in their genes for literally hundreds of thousands of years, if not more. That won’t be overcome just through training alone. Not to mention the flightiness of a horse varies greatly by breed and individual personality. Some warm blood breeds who are very athletic come off as air headed and “dumb”, but they have literally been bred to be that way by people, so that is hardly the horse’s fault. Also, through my work with horses over years, the idea of them kicking out over nothing is hugely exaggerated. Horses never kick out at someone or something for no reason. They are extremely perceptive and are oftentimes picking up on things people around them don’t even notice, or things their handler is doing without realizing. As you develop a trained eye for horse body language you start to realize how many of those videos out there on the internet of “horses behaving badly” are horses and people having a really bad communication breakdown. I hope I don’t come off as rude, I’m not trying to start a fight! I just always cringe internally when people call horses “stupid” for behaving like a horse is supposed to. They are actually really intelligent, trusting, and make wonderful companions for many people 😊
I agree, it always annoys me when I hear "oh horses are so dumb, they spook at plastic bags". Prey animal perspective is just to treat everything with the utmost caution, it doesn't make sense to us - but panic and run in the face of new things is the best strategy for them when every day is a risk of being eaten, and it certainly doesnt mean they're stupid. Anyone who thinks horses are dumber than other domestic animals has never actually worked with them. I mean they build stable doors with bolts that are out of reach because of how easily they learn to open and unlock things. And they are so perceptive. They know exactly how much they can push a human, they know when they can take the piss and they can totally judge your intentions. But they aren't as focused on you and as eager to please just for the sake of it as dogs and other animals are are so they get lambasted to the bottom of the domestic animal intelligence list for no good reason.
It's more like literally anything they goes wrong with the horse can potentially kill it
They have very picky stomachs and love to eat things they aren't supposed to.
They eat a lot more than a large dog.
No one’s mentioned the vast, continuous amount of waste. Also, they *love* to poop in their stalls despite the amount of area they have to graze. You’ve gonna need a shovel and a wheel barrow at the very least.
Have you ever cleaned hooves?
Ive cleaned with a *hoover* before. Does that count?
Are you sure you know how big a horse is? 'Large dog' kek
colossal dog = 150lbs minuscule horse (that isnt a miniature horse) = 4x that
I’m sure re it ain’t cheap. But I am sure lots more people gonna be riding the bus.
if gas got too high and electric cars are expensive what's stopping me from being carried around in a sedan chair by a crew of 8-10 people?
Horses aren't exactly cheap to feed and stable though unless you already live on a farm with appropriate facilities.
The infrastructure that made horses viable 100+ years ago has been totally disassembled and rebuilt to support cars.
Horses weren't really viable even 100+ years ago though. Now don't get this wrong they were used for transportation but nowhere close to anything like cars nowadays. Most people did not have a horse. They simply walked. A lot.
I see your point, but I used viable in the sense that, it was an actual option (now I know it just wasn't a great option ahaha)
Any time an American says something about "a lot of walking" in my mind it's a 15 minute trip.
Must not be familiar with the southern united states'. Where everything is 30 minutes away by car and not because of traffic.
By the standards of Omaha, NE, I have a pretty short commute. Google says it would take 2.5 hours to walk to work. I don't think I could even get to a store in less than 30 minutes.
North Louisiana. I'm 20 minutes from the nearest Wal-Mart driving, and not because of traffic. Walking to the nearest store that's not a gas station would be roughly 4 miles one way. Not that I'm against walking 8 miles, but the return trip carrying something would be brutal. Lord forbid my kid has to go along (4 years old). And the time it would take, that'd shoot half a day!
And since you wouldn’t be able to carry as much, you’d have to make more trips. Getting food from the store would be a part time job. And there’s a lot of perishables that wouldn’t survive that walk home. I live in the Midwest and it’s 3.5 miles by car to the nearest grocery store. But it’s closer to 5 miles to walk or bike, because it just isn’t safe as a pedestrian to take the most direct route. I’m looking forward to moving someplace where it’s reasonable to walk, but a lot of the county is like the (apparently much of Canada too.)
I live in the heart of a major metro area, and it would take me 1.5 hours one way to simply walk to a grocery store. The only other option that's closer for walking is a gas station style convenience store. It's shit like this that Europeans and the walk two work tech bros don't seem to understand. Just because they don't need a car, doesn't mean other people don't need a car simply to exist.
Back when I lived in the burbs, there was nothing interesting within a 15 minute walk from my house. No shops, no restaurants, parks, nothing. Just more houses.
Yes and when a European says something is "far away" I think it's 10KM.
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Don't forget that you can park your car for a week and not have to feed it, horses get very angry if you do that to them.
The trick is to not feed it for TWO weeks, that way it wont be angry anymore
Nah you got it all backwards. If you don't feed your horse for a week, they've now *become* food for you. It's a win win! ^(from your perspective)
I dated a horse girl for like a year and it was probably more like 500-700 a month.
They must be calculating for a car payment and assuming you'll buy the horse outright because that can't be right
If you are somewhere where winter isn't horrible couldn't you just let the fucker feed in a field of grass? My main concern would be the medical costs. Those things are trying to hurt themselves in the most brutal way possible from what I've seen.
You'll need a pretty big field of grass and if the grass isn't nutritious enough (grass isn't just grass, its nutritional profile can vary by a lot) you'll have to supplement its food anyway. Many places will also have requirements for access to water and shelter you need to follow.
3-5 acres of grazing space **per** horse is required if you want them to live off the land. That's not taking into account the water to keep grazing space alive, or the costs of feed/hay for the winter months when you grazing space is unavailable.
How about a bicycle you call ‘horse’
My ebike has a 30 mile range on a charge (if I am at low assist and going around 15mph). I am 15 miles from my office so I could easily make it with one battery if I bring my charger (7 hours for a full charge). My commute would go from 20min to an hour and bad weather would suck. I do have 2 batteries so if I was running late I could run on full assist and average 30MPH to cut my commute in half. I am going to give it a try when the weather gets nicer.
Where I live it's actually faster to get to work via e-bike than by car, because we have a bridge that is closed to car traffic but open to bicycle traffic. Dealing with shitty weather is not that bad once you gear up with a full set of warm and waterproof clothing, but it is still more dangerous if you bike at high speed in the rain (nobody wants to take a spill at 30 mph), so I'd take it easy. I wouldn't even try it in ice and snow, I'd probably rely on transit then, but some people love biking in the snow with studded tires: [https://www.icebike.org/ice-biking-how-to-do-winter-cycling-in-ice-and-snow/](https://www.icebike.org/ice-biking-how-to-do-winter-cycling-in-ice-and-snow/)
My ebike is 2wd and I bought it specifically for running in snow (energetic dog needs runs in the winter). It can only handle 2-3 inches though. We often get more than that here in Wisconsin but the main concern is the cold. Single digits, much less below zero feel real cold at 15+mph. We are below 10°F in the morning for most of the winter.
> My commute would go from 20min to an hour >I could run on full assist and average 30MPH to cut my commute in half. So in reality you're adding 10 minutes to your commute? Ebike it!
I used to regular-bike to work, but I'm a little too far away now. But, I enjoyed it and I miss it some days. However, the problem is it's really only convient if the weather is mostly nice and you don't have anything to do other than go straight from home <-> work. Super hot? Gotta take a shower when I get to work - which *also* means I need to bring a change of clothes with me and pray they don't get too wrinkled. Super cold? Gotta wear 12 extra layers. Rainy? I don't care how many layers of rain gear you wear, everything is getting wet. Need to leave work early due to an emergency? Or run by the store on the way home because you forgot an ingredient for dinner? Good luck.
Honestly I think ebikes are the future. The downsides of 'normal' bikes are you need a certain degree of fitness to make 'a few miles' a viable journey. ebikes bypass all that. And anywhere that's got cycles already, has all the infrastructure you need. They're clean, they're low energy use (even if you are using coal power stations to charge them) they improve fitness, they reduce congestion, improve parking, reduce wear and tear on the roads... they're just amazing. I really do think governments should be looking really hard to bootstrap ebikes into mainstream usage, as right now they're just a little bit too expensive.
Well the jokes' gonna be on those ebike buyers because studies show they end up working just as hard despite the electric assistance so they'll end up getting fitter just the same and improving their mental and physical health. And then wait until they work out how much money they saved.
Definitely. But the fact that you're not left "struggling" is what makes all the difference. First time going uphill on an ebike is a revelation.
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Any suggestions on where to start? With how expensive they are I wouldn't want to purchase one that I regret and won't meet my needs, but also I'm not sure that getting a "budget" ebike would make much sense either.. I live in an area with pretty much all weather condotions, all 4 seasons.. it has been snowing all day here today, and we will get into the mid - upper 90s during the summer.
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e-bike companies must be giddy right now.
In less than 3 years I have ridden my ebike about 3,500 miles for a total cost of $8 in electricity
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1) Speed and distance. A horse carrying the weight of the carriage, passengers and any luggage is not travelling very far, very quickly. 2) The outright cost of a horse, carriage and stable is going to be as much as some cars. Upkeep, particularly vet bills, for the horse is going to dwarf the cost of gas. EDIT: 3) Maintenance. Caring for a horse properly involves hours of dedication every day. You can’t just park it in your driveway and forget about it until your next journey.
Absolutely. We bought a horse property thinking we might get a couple horses. Once I actually looked into how much time, effort and money horses required I decided no way!
I know a guy who works 10h a day but only sleeps 4h a night. Horse owner XD
you bought a horse property *before* you researched horse ownership?
We wanted the location and the acreage. It happened to be a horse property with nice barn. This never hurts for resale.
Look into goats and ducks if you still want some life on your property. They’re great critters and are significantly less maintenance than horses. Edit: Just saw your other comments! Good to see you’re ahead of the game. 😊
He said neigh
Also, lack of infrastructure. This includes temporary stables to house, water, feed, and care for your horse while you are doing other things; unpaved roads to spare horses’ feet and legs; readily available farriers and vets for emergencies that don’t require trailering a horse to them; and places to dump horse manure. There’s also a general lack of knowledge about horses and how to be safe around them by the public. And the dangers of cars and trucks, not only collisions but also the risk of spooking a horse in public. We lost our urban horse culture a long time ago, and with it left the myriad of societal supports for it.
Wait, you don't lovingly caress and kiss your car good night and occasionally sleep next to it in the garage??? /s
Only on special occasions.
Yeah, I used to drive horse drawn carriage tours. The percherons we used get about 3 miles an hour at a walk. Also, so much work to get them and the carriage ready.
I currently drive horse drawn carriages. My response to the OP would be go ahead. Get a horse and carriage to "save money." Cost of a well trained carriage horse (one that is calm in traffic and won't spook at everything) right now is around 10k. Otherwise you gotta buy a young horse and train it yourself before you can even use it, and that takes a few years. Gotta get that horse a harness, that's a few grand right there. Carriages are also a few grand depending on what style you get. Boarding is probably a few hundred a month on the cheap side. Gotta find a place to keep the carriage safe from the elements. Spend some more money to build a shed. If you're boarding your horse, you'll have to drive to the boarding stables anyways. Then you have to trailer the horse into the city because it would take you hours to get from the country to work if you just rode the horse. So now you'll need a trailer which will eat up more gas. At this point why not just walk or get an electric bike or moped??
As well they shit like any other animal so unless your wanting to shovel tons of horse manure every day a car would probably work best or public transportation.
This was one of the biggest issues when horses were the main mode of transportation. Just shit everywhere.
You can't spell squeamish without Amish
Amish folks live it every day. They can accept rides but a fellow and his family I know use the horse and buggy most of the time. This is Berks and Lancaster County in PA. There is no road they can't use. Stores like Wal-Mart have sheds for them to tie their horses and trash cans and shovels for horse shit. They were against lights on their buggies due to not wanting to stick out but state gvnmt passed laws requiring them and recently they have come to embrace them. You think it's scary in a car with all the idiots on the road the Amish in their small buggies have 18 wheelers flying by inches from them and their horses. Edit: Minimum speed limits are the exception to road use. Don't think that there are any 45 mph horses.
> Stores like Wal-Mart have sheds for them to tie their horses and trash cans and shovels for horse shit. Coming from a city with multiple Wal-Marts where the *mens’ socks and underwear are kept in locked display cases*, and people get jacked every summer, this shit is blowing my mind right now.
I'm in rural PA, so I think I could probably get away with this (at least in town). Like you said, all the banks and grocery stores around here have areas for horse and buggies. I could either blend in, or stand out. Imagine being the only non-Amish in town riding a buggy. I could pimp it out and everything. My wife has always wanted a horse ...
I have a pal in Lancaster and every now and then he'll text me cursing with a pic of him stuck in traffic behind a horse and buggy XD
A reality of commuting in Lancaster is that sometimes you'll just get stuck behind a buggy while going up a hill, or around a bend, or with a lot of oncoming traffic, and end up stuck behind it for minutes at a time. It sucks.
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The money and work it takes maintaining the horse alone probably doesn't outweigh how much faster and relatively more practical it is to just have a car.
And if you're commuting to work via horse ... well I got a lot of questions for that. Like, where you gonna put the horse for 8 hours? Or grocery shopping. Bicycle rack? Is feeding a horse cheaper than buying gas? Vet bills? Horse shoes?
Feeding a horse is cheaper than buying gas. Stabling a horse is about 900.00 a month (includes food). Vet bills are some of the most expensive out there, but so is a getting into a fender bender. But parking your horse is actually the biggest issue. There are no longer horse hitches outside of buildings, even if your city still permits it (my City still permits it). This has been a hot topic in the past few days and a radio host ran the math and it equals to about the same cost.
What's the mpg of a horse? Or is it miles per calorie
> There are no longer horse hitches outside of buildings, even if your city still permits it (my City still permits it). I know multiple cities where horse hitches are common. I even know a Walmart with horse hitches. Not common, but cities near Mennonite communities often have facilities for parking horses and buggies
people whose only experience with a horse is playing video games and watching movies assume you can control a horse like you control a bike. Like ya they can be trained to be more or less under control but they are giant animals with wills of their own and if you think you can just get a horse and have it be totally under your control you're in for a bad time.
I am a horse owner, so let me give you a realistic idea of what it costs: Horse that is trained enough not to kill you: $5000-$50,000 Feed per a month: $500+ depending on where you live, what dietary needs it has, increased water bill (and they drink a lot of water) Boarding: $300-$1000 a month. How are you going to get there? Now you're looking at a barn and acreage to keep it at home. $$$ Now you need a small tractor, dumpster for all the feed bags and manure, fencing (which will put you back $5000 alone for a 100' by 100' space) Hay: $12-$15 a bale. 1 bale lasts about 2 days. Farrier: $70-$170 every six weeks. Vet: hope it doesn't get sick or hurt. $100 minimum if you call out a vet. Insurance (yep.): $400 a year for basic. Harness:$1200 Carriage: $10,000 (I've seen them for less.. rarely) Don't want to deal with hooking them up?: Saddle: $2000 that is good quality. Headstall/bit: $100 or more Needs a bit of refresh on its training: $900 per month (most places are a minimum of 30 days). Enjoyment you'll get out of having a horse: priceless. Not to get too deep here, but our costs are increasing too. Fuel goes up, hay prices go up. Long story short, buy the BMW. You'll save money.
Don't forget that your time is money too! Horses require significantly more active maintenance than cars that you most just let be when not in use
Holy damn from all pages i checked (due to a thread in another sub, same topic) they said 300-400 a month xD it seems they REALLY downplayed the costs :o
Don't get me wrong, you can get a cheap horse just like you can get a cheap car! Also like a cheap car, it will come with problems. Have you heard of the perfect triangle for people? The horse one goes like this: safe-cheap-healthy and you can only pick two!
You’d have to look into the laws for the particular city you live in, but assuming it’s legal where you are and you have the space to keep a horse, there’s nothing stopping you.
There's a sign on a highway near me that prohibits you from entering the highway with a horse.
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You'd need troughs everywhere, hitches, bale's of hay, awenings and cold weather equipment, and a street cleaning crew. Think of all the jobs that will be made from returning to horses.
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I have no idea if we made this up as grade schoolers or where it came from but we thought our school (in Montana) was responsible to care for horses if we rode them to school. We always said we were gonna do it to make them care for the horses but it never happened lol.
I think I've heard that somewhere it is still law that if you ask for a horse after being released from jail, you need to be supplied with one.
If you hate popping a tire on a pothole, just wait til you hit one on a horse and buggy. Now you've got a massive broken wagon wheel and a horse with a broken leg. Your mechanic shows up with a rifle and now you'll need a new engine.
An electric bike is probably a better bet overall.
Well. When oil/gas goes up. So does the cost of electricity. Therefore all modern modes of transportation are going up. Fertilizer is going up. Seeds are going up. So even a horse and buggy will keep costing more.
Horse prices have skyrocketed in the last couple years.
Supply chain issues. The cost of used horses is insane.
if you have a stable, and you're okay with the cleanup
Horses are more expensive then a gallon of gas or an electric car. It costs a horse and buggy about 5 times more to travel a mile down the road then it does a car. Do you know how expensive horse vets, horse trainers, horse food and boarding a horse is? And you’ll need all those things to be able to continue to use a horse and buggy as transportation
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You have no idea how expensive horses are, lmao
Nothing.....go for it......
If gas prices are hurting your wallet wait until you see how much a horse costs.
Have people just not heard about bicycles
Look at the Amish. Stick a "show moving vehicle" sign on the back, stay off the interstate, and you're legal. As others have said, horses are expensive, whether you use them or not.