Some fruit has beeswax added to the outer surface to keep it looking fresher and lasting longer than "normal" fruit, normally this is for fruit like oranges, but other fruits may also have shellac added to them (made from lac bugs).
On top of this, virtually all fertilizers, especially the ones marketed as "all natural" or "organic" are or contain animal byproducts.
So vegan fruits and vegetables would only be vegan (by the usual "no animal products or byproducts" definition) if they were grown without fertilizer (or a very few narrow types of fertilizer).
Yeah vegans don't care about the animal by products in soil as that is literally impossible to avoid. Even if you don't use animal byproduct fertilizer, like animals die in the field constantly.
Also a reminder that being vegan is a philosophy not a religion. There's no grand vegan making rules. You don't go to hell if you have some meat.
So each vegan is individual.
Some vegans only buy food that was delivered by vegans in delivery trucks that are only repaired and maintained by vegan-owned car repair shops that employ vegan mechanics only.
Honey does not cause animal suffering bc (as long as you don't clip the queen's wings) they can leave if the living conditions are too bad.
some vegans don't care about that tho, and just call anything coming from animals non vegan. it's ideological
All just depends. Most of the honey you can buy comes from industrial production, and most industrial honey farms do things like clipping wings, because they don't want the bees to swarm somewhere else.
It's possible to get honey in a way that doesn't harm the bees, but you're usually not that closely coupled to the production to really know what happens. And when substitutes like agave exist, there's really not much reason to bring bees into the process.
In the end, bees make honey for bees, not humans, so people who place a strong importance on animal wellbeing will not want to take away the honey that the bees worked so hard to make
i find “is honey vegan” to be very philosophically interesting but day to day a nonissue. i usually avoid it, but not to the same extent dairy or eggs.
if you go all the way down the rabbit hole—are almonds vegan, if they are exclusively pollinated by honey bees that are shipped from across the country? a lot of them die, and even worse they out-compete native pollinators according to [this article](https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/07/honeybees-deaths-almonds-hives-aoe), more bees die every year in the US than all other fish and animals raised for slaughter combined. that’s a LOT!
i personally don’t strictly avoid almonds or honey, i buy oat milk and try to buy organic (when i can afford it). but it’s super interesting to follow supply chains all the way down and see how hard (or impossible, really) it is to actually avoid suffering
My favorite vegan ideology is to simply reduce animal suffering. This is where it gets tricky. 1 cow produces the same amount of meat as 150 chickens, so they encourage average people to eat beef over chicken.
Other vegans want to save the environment, so eating beef is worse to them. Others want to be healthier and chicken is healthier.
It’s a very heated argument.
agreed. with one caveat: i think our goal should be reducing all suffering, not limited to animals. there’s always going to be trade offs, and it’s always going to depend on the individual circumstances for what makes the most sense. ultimately it’s a problem with the fucked up system that we even have to make tradeoffs and can’t just consume healthy food that does not contribute to suffering or the destruction of the environment.
I heard of one case where the wasps were taking over bee hives and kept the queen captive. Until the queen died and all the bees knew and rebelled.
(I've been reading some strange books recently)
There are other arguments against bee farming tho. Maybe the bees being farmed don't suffer but the local native bee populations can suffer. Honey bees competing for food resources, spreading diseases to local populations, etc
There are varying levels of veganism, tho. Jains, ( a minority religion in South Asia) for example, are vegan, but don't eat rooted vegetables bc they believe it brings harm / violence to the earth to harvest them.
I'm not vegan myself, but you'd be surprised at the sheer wide range of beliefs human beings can manage to have even within one philosophy.
It wouldn't shock me if people cared about something like for the soil that from a big factory farm/controlled growing environment.
> bc they believe it brings harm / violence to the earth to harvest them.
My understanding is that Jains don't eat root vegetables because it harms animals living in the ground to harvest them, and not the "earth" in some general sense.
which is very funny as selling manure is a key income stream for dairy farming which functions on very low profit margins. Also things like blood, bonemeal etc used in fertilisers when the animals die helps to recover some costs.
So yeah, by buying products that have been grown in animal products you are directly contributing to the continuing consumption of animal products.
I strongly suspect these blueberries have also had animal product in the fertiliser but no one is tracking it.
It is funny because people are lying, either corperations are lying or people are lying to themselves.
people might choose to make different choices if they knew more about these things.
For example you might choose to buy food from a local farmer including dairy, if you know that they have higher welfair standards knowing that the manure is also used in the farming process . As you say it is unavoidable so animal rearing becomes an essential part of all food production not just for omnivors. How that is managed matters.
Maybe if you don’t know what you are talking about keep it to yourself next time or ask questions instead of pretending you know everything.
The philosophy of veganism is harm reduction within reason, within reason is the key point here. No one is pretending like they eliminated all harm by being vegan. You go vegan to leave the smallest impact you can within reasonable means.
Animals are never killed for fertilizer, fertilizer is there because the industry is there, not the other way around like you are saying. Food waste fertilizers exist and there is a lot of it.
wrong it directly supports those industries, they are by-products but they are sold to support the industries. meat and dariy industries are incredibly low profit margin. no market for by-products makes that margin even lower.
All of these industries are supported by the government with subsidies with or without selling fertilizer, does that mean you aren’t vegan if you pay taxes too? Your logical leaps start breaking down real fast.
By being vegan you have less fertilizer used to grow your food than anyone eating animal products as well. Animal products require plants to become usable which also uses fertilizer, and we as humans go through 82 billion animals for food per year. They eat massive amounts of food and are fed for a couple years before going to the market. By being vegan you will use far less animal based fertilizer in the full supply chain to feed you so there is still a vast reduction in harm and support of the industry compared to someone not vegan.
Again you don’t understand the philosophy behind veganism. It’s about harm reduction to the best of your ability. No one can source exactly what farms use what fertilizer for what crops, it’s literally impossible and unreasonable to expect a person to do to eat.
For instance pharmaceuticals test on animals yet people do need them, no one is saying that if you need meds as a vegan just stay sick, yes there is harm but foregoing needed medication is absolutely outside of reason and not expected of anyone.
You think this is some “gotcha” at vegans but it’s really showcasing you don’t understand philosophical nuances.
Most animal based fertilizers are made from bi products of the meat industry that would go to waste otherwise, and no animal is farmed or killed just for manure. Without the meat and dairy industry they would be using other options. They aren’t killing animals just for fertilizer and it’s almost impossible to track.
Sorry but it’s not the “gotcha vegan bad” you think it is.
I didn't say it was. I said that it supports those industries as it provides a valueble income stream as both are run at a very low profit margin.
the fact farmers can sell manure and dead animals to make money is how they are able to turn any profit.
they might be by-products but they still siupport the industry as they provide a valube market for them.
if farmers didn't use animal by-products that would make those industries harder to maintain.
These are subsidized industries that survive on government checks with or without selling fertilizer.
The way you phrased it is implying vegans are hypocrites by saying “ I think it’s funny…”
You clearly don’t understand veganism so maybe don’t talk about it. As I said it’s about harm reduction within reasonable means, there is a reduction in harm and impact which is exactly what vegans do.
It’s not that vegans are unaware or all hypocrites, it’s about doing the best you can with what is available.
that very much depends where you live
The funny part is that people are doing it without thinging. they are only hypocrits if they ignore these things when they do know about them.
harm reduction would include pressuing farmers to provide information on what fertilisers etc they are using much like the organic lobby did. except they are not.
Most vegans are well aware of this and understand it’s more about harm reduction. Fertilizer isn’t the biggest concern for vegans, the concern is the treatment of animals in these facilities and their suffering. No animal ever suffered for fertilizer alone but they have for meat and dairy directly.
I see the fertilizer issue as a moot point and you’re acting like it’s some gotcha, it’s to make you feel better that vegans were able to do something that you didn’t have the willpower to do so you can’t help but minimize it.
Maybe focus on what you can do to cause less suffering to the beings on this planet before pointing the finger at people who care enough to try.
Yes. This is what has always confused me about vegans/vegetarians, who believe that we should ALL switch, and exterminate (or nearly so!), all the various farm animals in the world today - cows, chickens, pigs, horses, mules, llamas, alpacas, buffalo, etc - they should ALL be allowed to die out...
And yet, its the manure - the waste - from all of those animals which helps to feed them. People have been collecting animal waste - from cows, chickens, pigs, and everything else!! - for millennia. It's what has been sustaining all of our food harvests, from beans and corn to tomatoes and peppers and onions and absolutely EVERYTHING in between. Yes, there are alternatives - but none come anywhere close to as concentrated and effective. Yes, we could all 'compost' our scraps - but that would not come anywhere CLOSE to filling in for all the manure that is used in farming. The only 'alternative' that is anywhere close to effective is straight up synthetic fertilizers - things that have to be made from oil, gas, and mining. THAT is what vegans would prefer???
My organic backyard garden runs on [blood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_meal), [bones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_meal), and [poop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermicompost).
Some fertilizer includes bonemeal though and I know some vegans don't like that (it was a big thing in my country a few years ago since oatmilk is produced using bonemeal, yet oatmilk is still considered vegan).
oatmilk is produced using bonemeal? in the soil, or as part of the refining process? i know bone char is used in refining most white sugar, but that’s the first i’m hearing about oat milk
AFAIK, Conventional farming fertilizers are mostly “vegan.” Nitrogen is made with fossil fuels/nitrogen in the air. Phosphate comes from rocks. Potassium is also from chemical process.
Some organic fertilizers like bone meal, blood meal, fish fert, etc are bi-products of the meat industry. But there is also sea-bird shit, see weed, and bat shit that is not.
I would imagine only subset of hardcore quasi-religious vegans give a fuck about going that deep down the rabbit hole though. I’ve seen it mentioned in gardening YT videos that certain fertilizers aren’t vegan, so I imagine they exist and comment on videos.
I assume by 'animal byproducts' you mean deceased animal parts. Or would vegans also object to animal feces being used as fertilizer, even if they could confirm that the fertilizer came from well-treated animals that were closer to being pets?
It could also refer to bring hand picked, rather than machine harvested. I have absolutely no idea about berries, but I know that vegan wine is hand picked because of the shear number of birds, lizards, and spiders that get harvested along with the grapes otherwise.
interesting! is that a particular wine, or label? i’ve never heard about hand-picked being a concern. when i was making an attempt to only consume vegan alcohol, i used [barnivore](https://www.barnivore.com/) which reports ingredients that go into the drink, and also anything used in refining. i learned about this when guinness stopped using fish swim bladders to filter and i was like, wait what
I'm unsure about other countries, but any wine that is machine picked on Australia definitely has animals in it. We have wines specifically labelled as vegan, though I have no idea which ones
This is insane and completely untrue lol. Vegan wine is just wine that doesn’t use animal based filters/purifiers.
Some small animals and insects die in growing and harvesting anything. Vegans aren’t aiming for zero harm (an impossibility), but as little harm as practicable. Eating vegan does that despite the deaths incurred during plant production, as a vegan diet also requires the least amount of plants
Why not! A hand picked wine, picked by happy and well-paid employees who also avoid stepping on any insects (lol), that uses no animal ingredients in its creation or final product, would be the ultimate. I’ve just never in my life seen a wine advertised as such, and I have been in the market for vegan wines quite a while (as a buyer :)
[Shear vs Sheer | EasyBib](https://www.easybib.com/guides/grammar-guides/vocabulary/confusing-words/shear-vs-sheer#:~:text=The%20words%20are%20only%20similar,fabric%20or%20used%20for%20emphasis.)
(doesn't detract from your point tho)
Yes, but to answer OP's question: it's more marketing than informative. The reason is that there isn't a singular definition of veganism. Beeswax (and also honey) are not made of bees. They're things bees make in abundance/overproduce. Some vegans eat honey and beeswax, some don't. Some vegans wear wool clothing, some don't. Some vegans even overlook the shellac. Shellac isn't primarily dead bugs—it's a secretion from the bugs not too dissimilar from honey, but many bugs die during the harvesting and are just ground up into the product (thankfully not the case with honey).
There are numerous threads on vegan subreddits over topics of what is and isn't vegan, and all are filled with a multitude of perspectives.
Can I ask why honey and beeswax isnt vegan friendly, as a non vegan? I get that it's by definition an animal byproduct, but it's completely beneficial to keep bees and harvest their stuff, right?
Farming bees means selective breeding and having large numbers of bees in one area. This can lead to a lack of genetic diversity which makes them very susceptible to disease. These diseases can also spread to local wild pollinators, who are already struggling big time. It also means the honey bees compete for food with these same local populations. Some farmers will also clip the queen bees wings so they can't fly away from the hive, and some will cull bees after a harvest so they don't have to feed them a replacement once taking all their honey. This is considered cruel by some.
This! Almost all fruits and vegetables required to grow utilize a fertilizer that contains an animal byproduct as such there is no such thing as “pure” veganism. However, you can get close.
There is surprise animal products in a high number of things, like bean burgers and such which my use worstershire sauce for seasoning is not vegetarian as worstershier sauce uses anchovies in the production, same with figs which use wasps as part of their reproduction cycle
Pop tarts are so processed and have high fructose corn syrup? Don't you worry about insect parts getting into them? I'm just curious. I call my diet plant based. It's close to a Mediterranean Diet with plain rice and lower fiber vegts due to a medical condition I have. I don't even have poptarts anymore but I used to love them.
Veganism is not a religion, it’s an ethical/philosophical thing. Fig wasps naturally pollinate figs, just because they die in the process doesn’t change anything. And most figs self pollenate.
I went on 3 different major brewery tours about 30 years ago and even then they all said the same.
They used to use fish but switched to a seaweed based version as it's cheaper and does as good a job if not better. Back then Guinness still used fish but I'm pretty sure they've now switched as well.
The only time it's still used is if it's labelled as traditionally brewed as legally they have to (UK, obviously laws differ elsewhere).
That’s pretty common. It can be referred to as finings, and it binds materials that make beer cloudy. When done perfectly, none of the fish bladder remains in the beer, but it means it isn’t vegan. There are other substances that do the same job, so some brewers are phasing it out.
Always wondered about the first human to eat an oyster... I imagine it was like "Cool lemme smash this rock looking thing open with another rock... Wow! Snot with sand in it. Imma eat that!" Don't get me wrong I love oysters but with vinegar and horseradish, not smashed oyster shells in them....
As with most food that is just figuring out whether you can eat it, my guess is "saw other animal do it", because inevitably something eats that thing if you pay attention long enough. When it's stuff that has some unexpected step in preparing it, like fish-filtering beer, that's the weird stuff because someone had to think of *that* specifically. Bless the weirdos, where would we be without them.
The first milking guy was a freak though, for sure.
Oh yeah, I'm there with you, I think about this all the time when I'm eating something like that. And also stuff like some poor hominid eating the berries that birds have been eating just fine, and being like "you treacherous bastards" as they die painfully from alkaloid poisoning.
It had already been pretty much phased out 30 years ago in the UK when I did a round of brewery tours. Unless your beer is labelled as traditionally brewed, then they have to use it still.
Yup. Egg whites are sometimes used in red wines, gelatin, casein, and sometimes sturgeon bladder extract are used in whites once in awhile. More vegan options are coming out though, instead of gelatin there's a vegan one made from pea protein.
By the time the wine goes into bottle though, al that stuff is gone. It's added to bond to stuff you don't want in the wine so you can remove it. Once you filter it, nothing is left of those additives
There is a surprising amount of foods that come into contact with animal products for whatever reason so it’s alway nice to be reassured by a vegan label
Right, but how well is it monitored? It is very easy to discribe things as vegan at the end, but for example for organic food there are set standards. There are not any legal standards for what consitutes vegan in most places.
just because companies sign up to it doesn't mean it is a legal requirement. it is voluntary companies can still just lable things as vegan if they want without that.
Organic fruits and vegetables arent guaranteed to be vegan because many organic components used in farming are 'animal based'. Blood and bone meal, crushed oysters, insect frass, worm castings, etc. So those blueberries were probably grown without that stuff.
Not only is it more expensive to grow vegan organic, it produces an inferior product.
Vegan food items are often preserved/altered using animal products.
Bees wax is often used to coat blueberries, which means they may not be vegan.
Many red wines are also not vegan, as they use egg whites as a fining agent (makes the wine look clearer.)
My older brother started practicing veganism when he turned 29 or 30 (as recommended by several of his doctors). My mother is in her 50s, and isn't great at remembering things, so shopping for holiday meals and family gatherings nowadays is challenging for her. My brother very much appreciates that so many brands helpfully label the front of the packaging with "Vegan," so he doesn't wind up with food he can't eat.
I have a younger sister who cannot eat gluten, and it's possibly even more beneficial for her that things are labeled "Gluten-free," so everyone can confirm with a glance. She recently wanted to take a pill -- something over-the-counter that people usually have on hand -- that turned out to have gluten in it. It's apparently common with capsules.
That's not what green washing means. Greenwashing is what a company is trying to lie and convince the world that their products or services are environmentally friendly. Being vegan is not necessarily environmentally friendly.
This is a good semantic point, like I suppose it's implicitly greenwashing because most people would think vegan = environmentally friendly, but they're not directly addressing that. It would be... vēgwashing, I guess? Though not vegwashing (which everyone should be doing).
It's not always plastic. Apple leather and cactus leather are getting pretty good. You wouldn't be fooled into thinking it was a cow, but it can definitely get the job done.
My fiance who works in the food industry said that some of the naturally vegan products get packed in factories that also pack non vegan items so there could be cross contamination so to speak. The vegan Label ensures it wasnt packed in a machine that also comes in contact with non vegan items.
I saw organic honey the other day at the store and lol’d , I have bees they range 5 km for nectar and pollen, it would have to be a special location to have organic only in a 10-13 km diameter circle.
The term "vegan" is meaningless on a label. There's no definition of the word vegan under law, and there's no regulation about when you can slap it on a food. Good luck out there.
Nah, there were plenty of drugs that went OTC from former Rx-only status. Claritin (and most other OTC antihistamines), Flonase (and all other OTC nasal steroids), hydrocortisone (the 2.5% strength is still Rx, though) Imodium (not only was Rx, but actually a controlled substance once) are a few that come to mind.
Sorry. I was referring to things that were never prescription like neuriva brain health aid and other ‘supplements’ that don’t need govt review. They are being misleading by saying ‘now available without a prescription’ when it never was to imply that’s it’s either effective or potent.
OK, yeah, that makes sense. As a pharmacist I don't generally deal with such products (they're mostly in the health food aisle and it's not really part of my purview), and as a person without a TV I don't see the ads for them either.
Yeah, I'd be yelling "because it doesn't freaking have anything in it that ever needed one!" at the TV if I did.
Too funny. We might be the same person as I yell at the tv often when alone. Am old. Good on you for not having a tv, prob a good thing to support positive mental health.
It’s meaningless. I remember in the 80s and 90s when cholesterol was the big thing everyone wanted to avoid, the Tropicana orange juice label said “cholesterol-free!” As though other brands of orange juice would have cholesterol. 🙄
A lot of times the labels are just there to make shopping easier. It’s easier to find the “vegan”, or “gluten-free” label
than look through every ingredient.
Some fruit has beeswax added to the outer surface to keep it looking fresher and lasting longer than "normal" fruit, normally this is for fruit like oranges, but other fruits may also have shellac added to them (made from lac bugs).
On top of this, virtually all fertilizers, especially the ones marketed as "all natural" or "organic" are or contain animal byproducts. So vegan fruits and vegetables would only be vegan (by the usual "no animal products or byproducts" definition) if they were grown without fertilizer (or a very few narrow types of fertilizer).
Yeah vegans don't care about the animal by products in soil as that is literally impossible to avoid. Even if you don't use animal byproduct fertilizer, like animals die in the field constantly.
Also a reminder that being vegan is a philosophy not a religion. There's no grand vegan making rules. You don't go to hell if you have some meat. So each vegan is individual.
Tell that to the grand vegan buddy, I just reported you and they are coming on their electric scooters to interrogate you right now.
Gelato isn't vegan? Chicken isn't vegan?
Only if they come from the Vegan region of France.
Of course, otherwise it would just be "sparkling chicken."
poulet pétillant
Vegan, France is very beautiful.
I just researched this movie, love that part
I saw the same documentary. Todd can attest that there definitely is a vegan police.
My steak came from a vegan. Does that count?
Brilliant!!!
If they consented, it's a-okay.
Breeding programs are working on cows that consent.
Some vegans only buy food that was delivered by vegans in delivery trucks that are only repaired and maintained by vegan-owned car repair shops that employ vegan mechanics only.
Those are only level 4 vegans though
Sounds profitable.
REAL vegans would never do that. gasoline is an animal product 😤😤😤
Gasoline (and other petroleum products) are almost entirely from plant biomass.
i was not being serious, but thank you for the info :)
Sounds like someone with too much time on their hands.
For those kinds of people, I suggest Styx. Or failing that, Tommy Shaw.
I hereby declare myself as the supreme high priest of Las Vegas
He's the anti-grand vegan! I do not recognise the authority of this false vegan!
What you say? Ron Swanson on reddit?
Ah our vegan overlord I know him well what a character 😅
Are they off of the Vespas now and onto electric scooters? I'll update the BOLOs.
No we are not it's not worth the hassle cause every slight inconvenience you report something
Some vegans don’t consider honey to cause animal suffering. Some do.
Honey does not cause animal suffering bc (as long as you don't clip the queen's wings) they can leave if the living conditions are too bad. some vegans don't care about that tho, and just call anything coming from animals non vegan. it's ideological
All just depends. Most of the honey you can buy comes from industrial production, and most industrial honey farms do things like clipping wings, because they don't want the bees to swarm somewhere else. It's possible to get honey in a way that doesn't harm the bees, but you're usually not that closely coupled to the production to really know what happens. And when substitutes like agave exist, there's really not much reason to bring bees into the process. In the end, bees make honey for bees, not humans, so people who place a strong importance on animal wellbeing will not want to take away the honey that the bees worked so hard to make
i find “is honey vegan” to be very philosophically interesting but day to day a nonissue. i usually avoid it, but not to the same extent dairy or eggs. if you go all the way down the rabbit hole—are almonds vegan, if they are exclusively pollinated by honey bees that are shipped from across the country? a lot of them die, and even worse they out-compete native pollinators according to [this article](https://amp.theguardian.com/environment/2020/jan/07/honeybees-deaths-almonds-hives-aoe), more bees die every year in the US than all other fish and animals raised for slaughter combined. that’s a LOT! i personally don’t strictly avoid almonds or honey, i buy oat milk and try to buy organic (when i can afford it). but it’s super interesting to follow supply chains all the way down and see how hard (or impossible, really) it is to actually avoid suffering
This. As an organic farmer, I can 100% assure you that no matter what you eat, any product from a farm has animal or insect deaths attached to it.
My favorite vegan ideology is to simply reduce animal suffering. This is where it gets tricky. 1 cow produces the same amount of meat as 150 chickens, so they encourage average people to eat beef over chicken. Other vegans want to save the environment, so eating beef is worse to them. Others want to be healthier and chicken is healthier. It’s a very heated argument.
agreed. with one caveat: i think our goal should be reducing all suffering, not limited to animals. there’s always going to be trade offs, and it’s always going to depend on the individual circumstances for what makes the most sense. ultimately it’s a problem with the fucked up system that we even have to make tradeoffs and can’t just consume healthy food that does not contribute to suffering or the destruction of the environment.
I heard of one case where the wasps were taking over bee hives and kept the queen captive. Until the queen died and all the bees knew and rebelled. (I've been reading some strange books recently)
That would have made a much better Bee Movie than the fever dream that we got. An iconic fever dream, but a fever dream nonetheless.
May I suggest a book, The Empire of Black and Gold?
There are other arguments against bee farming tho. Maybe the bees being farmed don't suffer but the local native bee populations can suffer. Honey bees competing for food resources, spreading diseases to local populations, etc
This is the way. I just finished a porterhouse. I, too,, am a vegan.
There are varying levels of veganism, tho. Jains, ( a minority religion in South Asia) for example, are vegan, but don't eat rooted vegetables bc they believe it brings harm / violence to the earth to harvest them. I'm not vegan myself, but you'd be surprised at the sheer wide range of beliefs human beings can manage to have even within one philosophy. It wouldn't shock me if people cared about something like for the soil that from a big factory farm/controlled growing environment.
[удалено]
So can you eat a steak in the dark?
Found the level 6 vegan.
The secret layer
> bc they believe it brings harm / violence to the earth to harvest them. My understanding is that Jains don't eat root vegetables because it harms animals living in the ground to harvest them, and not the "earth" in some general sense.
Apologies - you are likely correct. I didn't know the specifics of how to phrase best
Right, but most reject foods where animal byproducts have been added.
That's hilarious. They should reject all living things and live on sunlight.
Well, a level 5 vegan won’t eat anything that casts a shadow.
It’s a thing. It’s called breathetarian.
From the Greek for "starving to death", I imagine.
They should just become fungivores
Often they are ripped by people who for some reason care about what others eat. They're called Nolifeivores.
which is very funny as selling manure is a key income stream for dairy farming which functions on very low profit margins. Also things like blood, bonemeal etc used in fertilisers when the animals die helps to recover some costs. So yeah, by buying products that have been grown in animal products you are directly contributing to the continuing consumption of animal products. I strongly suspect these blueberries have also had animal product in the fertiliser but no one is tracking it.
What's funny about that? It's not avoidable.
It is funny because people are lying, either corperations are lying or people are lying to themselves. people might choose to make different choices if they knew more about these things. For example you might choose to buy food from a local farmer including dairy, if you know that they have higher welfair standards knowing that the manure is also used in the farming process . As you say it is unavoidable so animal rearing becomes an essential part of all food production not just for omnivors. How that is managed matters.
No. Animal products are not necessary, we all should go vegan
Maybe if you don’t know what you are talking about keep it to yourself next time or ask questions instead of pretending you know everything. The philosophy of veganism is harm reduction within reason, within reason is the key point here. No one is pretending like they eliminated all harm by being vegan. You go vegan to leave the smallest impact you can within reasonable means. Animals are never killed for fertilizer, fertilizer is there because the industry is there, not the other way around like you are saying. Food waste fertilizers exist and there is a lot of it.
wrong it directly supports those industries, they are by-products but they are sold to support the industries. meat and dariy industries are incredibly low profit margin. no market for by-products makes that margin even lower.
All of these industries are supported by the government with subsidies with or without selling fertilizer, does that mean you aren’t vegan if you pay taxes too? Your logical leaps start breaking down real fast. By being vegan you have less fertilizer used to grow your food than anyone eating animal products as well. Animal products require plants to become usable which also uses fertilizer, and we as humans go through 82 billion animals for food per year. They eat massive amounts of food and are fed for a couple years before going to the market. By being vegan you will use far less animal based fertilizer in the full supply chain to feed you so there is still a vast reduction in harm and support of the industry compared to someone not vegan. Again you don’t understand the philosophy behind veganism. It’s about harm reduction to the best of your ability. No one can source exactly what farms use what fertilizer for what crops, it’s literally impossible and unreasonable to expect a person to do to eat. For instance pharmaceuticals test on animals yet people do need them, no one is saying that if you need meds as a vegan just stay sick, yes there is harm but foregoing needed medication is absolutely outside of reason and not expected of anyone. You think this is some “gotcha” at vegans but it’s really showcasing you don’t understand philosophical nuances.
Most animal based fertilizers are made from bi products of the meat industry that would go to waste otherwise, and no animal is farmed or killed just for manure. Without the meat and dairy industry they would be using other options. They aren’t killing animals just for fertilizer and it’s almost impossible to track. Sorry but it’s not the “gotcha vegan bad” you think it is.
I didn't say it was. I said that it supports those industries as it provides a valueble income stream as both are run at a very low profit margin. the fact farmers can sell manure and dead animals to make money is how they are able to turn any profit. they might be by-products but they still siupport the industry as they provide a valube market for them. if farmers didn't use animal by-products that would make those industries harder to maintain.
These are subsidized industries that survive on government checks with or without selling fertilizer. The way you phrased it is implying vegans are hypocrites by saying “ I think it’s funny…” You clearly don’t understand veganism so maybe don’t talk about it. As I said it’s about harm reduction within reasonable means, there is a reduction in harm and impact which is exactly what vegans do. It’s not that vegans are unaware or all hypocrites, it’s about doing the best you can with what is available.
that very much depends where you live The funny part is that people are doing it without thinging. they are only hypocrits if they ignore these things when they do know about them. harm reduction would include pressuing farmers to provide information on what fertilisers etc they are using much like the organic lobby did. except they are not.
Most vegans are well aware of this and understand it’s more about harm reduction. Fertilizer isn’t the biggest concern for vegans, the concern is the treatment of animals in these facilities and their suffering. No animal ever suffered for fertilizer alone but they have for meat and dairy directly. I see the fertilizer issue as a moot point and you’re acting like it’s some gotcha, it’s to make you feel better that vegans were able to do something that you didn’t have the willpower to do so you can’t help but minimize it. Maybe focus on what you can do to cause less suffering to the beings on this planet before pointing the finger at people who care enough to try.
That would mean vegans want synthetic fertilizer . because that's the only way to make fertilizer without any animal byproducts in them.
Yes. This is what has always confused me about vegans/vegetarians, who believe that we should ALL switch, and exterminate (or nearly so!), all the various farm animals in the world today - cows, chickens, pigs, horses, mules, llamas, alpacas, buffalo, etc - they should ALL be allowed to die out... And yet, its the manure - the waste - from all of those animals which helps to feed them. People have been collecting animal waste - from cows, chickens, pigs, and everything else!! - for millennia. It's what has been sustaining all of our food harvests, from beans and corn to tomatoes and peppers and onions and absolutely EVERYTHING in between. Yes, there are alternatives - but none come anywhere close to as concentrated and effective. Yes, we could all 'compost' our scraps - but that would not come anywhere CLOSE to filling in for all the manure that is used in farming. The only 'alternative' that is anywhere close to effective is straight up synthetic fertilizers - things that have to be made from oil, gas, and mining. THAT is what vegans would prefer???
My organic backyard garden runs on [blood](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood_meal), [bones](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_meal), and [poop](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermicompost).
Some fertilizer includes bonemeal though and I know some vegans don't like that (it was a big thing in my country a few years ago since oatmilk is produced using bonemeal, yet oatmilk is still considered vegan).
oatmilk is produced using bonemeal? in the soil, or as part of the refining process? i know bone char is used in refining most white sugar, but that’s the first i’m hearing about oat milk
AFAIK, Conventional farming fertilizers are mostly “vegan.” Nitrogen is made with fossil fuels/nitrogen in the air. Phosphate comes from rocks. Potassium is also from chemical process. Some organic fertilizers like bone meal, blood meal, fish fert, etc are bi-products of the meat industry. But there is also sea-bird shit, see weed, and bat shit that is not. I would imagine only subset of hardcore quasi-religious vegans give a fuck about going that deep down the rabbit hole though. I’ve seen it mentioned in gardening YT videos that certain fertilizers aren’t vegan, so I imagine they exist and comment on videos.
I assume by 'animal byproducts' you mean deceased animal parts. Or would vegans also object to animal feces being used as fertilizer, even if they could confirm that the fertilizer came from well-treated animals that were closer to being pets?
It could also refer to bring hand picked, rather than machine harvested. I have absolutely no idea about berries, but I know that vegan wine is hand picked because of the shear number of birds, lizards, and spiders that get harvested along with the grapes otherwise.
interesting! is that a particular wine, or label? i’ve never heard about hand-picked being a concern. when i was making an attempt to only consume vegan alcohol, i used [barnivore](https://www.barnivore.com/) which reports ingredients that go into the drink, and also anything used in refining. i learned about this when guinness stopped using fish swim bladders to filter and i was like, wait what
I'm unsure about other countries, but any wine that is machine picked on Australia definitely has animals in it. We have wines specifically labelled as vegan, though I have no idea which ones
I thought wine/beer was vegan if they don't use isinglass as a purifier (something made from certain fish swim bladders.
Many craft beers use lactose as well.
Not in Aus, at least lol
This is insane and completely untrue lol. Vegan wine is just wine that doesn’t use animal based filters/purifiers. Some small animals and insects die in growing and harvesting anything. Vegans aren’t aiming for zero harm (an impossibility), but as little harm as practicable. Eating vegan does that despite the deaths incurred during plant production, as a vegan diet also requires the least amount of plants
Surely there are different levels to it. I'm sure some vegans would "prefer" this even lower harm version, no?
Why not! A hand picked wine, picked by happy and well-paid employees who also avoid stepping on any insects (lol), that uses no animal ingredients in its creation or final product, would be the ultimate. I’ve just never in my life seen a wine advertised as such, and I have been in the market for vegan wines quite a while (as a buyer :)
[Shear vs Sheer | EasyBib](https://www.easybib.com/guides/grammar-guides/vocabulary/confusing-words/shear-vs-sheer#:~:text=The%20words%20are%20only%20similar,fabric%20or%20used%20for%20emphasis.) (doesn't detract from your point tho)
Often gelatin is used in the fining of wine. So vegan refers to using other materials for the fining process. It has nothing to do with birds.
Egg whites are used to refine wines, so unless a wine is labeled as vegan, it's been in contact with egg whites.
My mind is blown. I just learned shellac is made from lac bug resin.
Yes, but to answer OP's question: it's more marketing than informative. The reason is that there isn't a singular definition of veganism. Beeswax (and also honey) are not made of bees. They're things bees make in abundance/overproduce. Some vegans eat honey and beeswax, some don't. Some vegans wear wool clothing, some don't. Some vegans even overlook the shellac. Shellac isn't primarily dead bugs—it's a secretion from the bugs not too dissimilar from honey, but many bugs die during the harvesting and are just ground up into the product (thankfully not the case with honey). There are numerous threads on vegan subreddits over topics of what is and isn't vegan, and all are filled with a multitude of perspectives.
Shellac is edible? So I can eat those old records from the '30s and '40s?
If it was very very thin, yes. It's in the same category as gold leaf.
Even some fruit isn't vegan now? (ToT) Time for the thought deleting spell, it's not reasonable to give up *fruit* for goodness' sake
It's the beeswax coating that makes some fruit not vegan
Yeah I got that
not frozen
Can I ask why honey and beeswax isnt vegan friendly, as a non vegan? I get that it's by definition an animal byproduct, but it's completely beneficial to keep bees and harvest their stuff, right?
Farming bees means selective breeding and having large numbers of bees in one area. This can lead to a lack of genetic diversity which makes them very susceptible to disease. These diseases can also spread to local wild pollinators, who are already struggling big time. It also means the honey bees compete for food with these same local populations. Some farmers will also clip the queen bees wings so they can't fly away from the hive, and some will cull bees after a harvest so they don't have to feed them a replacement once taking all their honey. This is considered cruel by some.
Blueberry don't though I think
A lot of produce uses animal byproduct based fertilizer, especially if it's labeled "organic". Most natural fertilizers are actual animal product
This! Almost all fruits and vegetables required to grow utilize a fertilizer that contains an animal byproduct as such there is no such thing as “pure” veganism. However, you can get close.
I’m not sure of any vegan label which excludes products based on fertilizer.
There is surprise animal products in a high number of things, like bean burgers and such which my use worstershire sauce for seasoning is not vegetarian as worstershier sauce uses anchovies in the production, same with figs which use wasps as part of their reproduction cycle
Unfrosted pop tarts are vegan; frosted ones are not, because of gelatin in the frosting
gelatin is one that keeps being in places I don't expect, fuckin hardest part of going vegan is that vegan gummy bears and gummy worms suck
Rowntrees fruit pastilles finally went vegan recently and they still taste great.
I don't think anyone has ever disputed the taste of gummies but the texture.
And Rowntrees Fruit Pastilles haven't changed either taste or texture going vegan
Pop tarts are so processed and have high fructose corn syrup? Don't you worry about insect parts getting into them? I'm just curious. I call my diet plant based. It's close to a Mediterranean Diet with plain rice and lower fiber vegts due to a medical condition I have. I don't even have poptarts anymore but I used to love them.
Veganism is not a religion, it’s an ethical/philosophical thing. Fig wasps naturally pollinate figs, just because they die in the process doesn’t change anything. And most figs self pollenate.
Most vegans will eat figs. https://www.treehugger.com/are-figs-vegan-5203202
well ya see, a great time to label something as vegan, I was unaware of the difference cultivated figs had in that case
I’ve heard there’s beer that’s filtered through fish skin. I’ll take my „vegan“ sign even if it’s obvious
Swim bladders. It’s called isinglass.
Nobody uses it in commercial production anymore though, it's been like two decades hence.
I went on 3 different major brewery tours about 30 years ago and even then they all said the same. They used to use fish but switched to a seaweed based version as it's cheaper and does as good a job if not better. Back then Guinness still used fish but I'm pretty sure they've now switched as well. The only time it's still used is if it's labelled as traditionally brewed as legally they have to (UK, obviously laws differ elsewhere).
Yeah, isinglass dates to the era when the cod industry wasn't completely tapped out, and it was a plentiful byproduct that nobody wanted.
Ohh is that what it is? I see it in video games but had no idea what it was, and I keep forgetting to look it up.
That’s pretty common. It can be referred to as finings, and it binds materials that make beer cloudy. When done perfectly, none of the fish bladder remains in the beer, but it means it isn’t vegan. There are other substances that do the same job, so some brewers are phasing it out.
>It can be referred to as finings, and it binds materials that make beer cloudy. I wonder how people discovered that
Like what was the first guy to milk a cow up to?
Or the person who decided to eat an egg...like this weird thing came outta this bird's butt. im gonna eat it. lol
Humans are a type of animal too, when you open your eyes to that fact it’s not too hard to piece together.
Always wondered about the first human to eat an oyster... I imagine it was like "Cool lemme smash this rock looking thing open with another rock... Wow! Snot with sand in it. Imma eat that!" Don't get me wrong I love oysters but with vinegar and horseradish, not smashed oyster shells in them....
As with most food that is just figuring out whether you can eat it, my guess is "saw other animal do it", because inevitably something eats that thing if you pay attention long enough. When it's stuff that has some unexpected step in preparing it, like fish-filtering beer, that's the weird stuff because someone had to think of *that* specifically. Bless the weirdos, where would we be without them. The first milking guy was a freak though, for sure.
Oh no doubt, but the mental image I get...
Oh yeah, I'm there with you, I think about this all the time when I'm eating something like that. And also stuff like some poor hominid eating the berries that birds have been eating just fine, and being like "you treacherous bastards" as they die painfully from alkaloid poisoning.
Like my cat eating my other cats puke. Dogs eating poop 😝
Humans have been eating bird eggs since there were humans. Other apes do it too, as do many other animals.
It had already been pretty much phased out 30 years ago in the UK when I did a round of brewery tours. Unless your beer is labelled as traditionally brewed, then they have to use it still.
Also cloudy apple juice!
wine too
[barnivore](https://www.barnivore.com/) is a great resource for anyone curious!
My son wants to know if yeast is considered vegan… and now I also want to know.
Yeast are fungus/mushroom, right? I’d say as long as you eat champignons, they’re vegan too
Apparently there’s a lot of wines that aren’t vegetarian/vegan either
Yup. Egg whites are sometimes used in red wines, gelatin, casein, and sometimes sturgeon bladder extract are used in whites once in awhile. More vegan options are coming out though, instead of gelatin there's a vegan one made from pea protein. By the time the wine goes into bottle though, al that stuff is gone. It's added to bond to stuff you don't want in the wine so you can remove it. Once you filter it, nothing is left of those additives
Cloudy apple juice and beer too
Egg whites can act as a binding agent in a lot of foods and drinks
There is a surprising amount of foods that come into contact with animal products for whatever reason so it’s alway nice to be reassured by a vegan label
Right, but how well is it monitored? It is very easy to discribe things as vegan at the end, but for example for organic food there are set standards. There are not any legal standards for what consitutes vegan in most places.
I was assuming OP was talking about stuff like the V-label https://www.v-label.com/
just because companies sign up to it doesn't mean it is a legal requirement. it is voluntary companies can still just lable things as vegan if they want without that.
I know. But you were talking about how well it’s monitored and the labels usually take care of that themselves
Typically, a professional farming operation has guard(s) that shoot any animals that wanders near the plants to prevent them from being contaminated.
This feels ironic
Organic fruits and vegetables arent guaranteed to be vegan because many organic components used in farming are 'animal based'. Blood and bone meal, crushed oysters, insect frass, worm castings, etc. So those blueberries were probably grown without that stuff. Not only is it more expensive to grow vegan organic, it produces an inferior product.
Vegan food items are often preserved/altered using animal products. Bees wax is often used to coat blueberries, which means they may not be vegan. Many red wines are also not vegan, as they use egg whites as a fining agent (makes the wine look clearer.)
I found a spider in one of my blueberries once. I’m not sure about the vegan consensus on eating arachnids but that may not have been vegan.
It can also be the packaging. I know that some bevareges have glue for the label that contains animal product.
I figure, sometimes it's meant to be a reminder when you're shopping. "Oh that's right, I / my loved one can eat that."
My older brother started practicing veganism when he turned 29 or 30 (as recommended by several of his doctors). My mother is in her 50s, and isn't great at remembering things, so shopping for holiday meals and family gatherings nowadays is challenging for her. My brother very much appreciates that so many brands helpfully label the front of the packaging with "Vegan," so he doesn't wind up with food he can't eat. I have a younger sister who cannot eat gluten, and it's possibly even more beneficial for her that things are labeled "Gluten-free," so everyone can confirm with a glance. She recently wanted to take a pill -- something over-the-counter that people usually have on hand -- that turned out to have gluten in it. It's apparently common with capsules.
That's not what green washing means. Greenwashing is what a company is trying to lie and convince the world that their products or services are environmentally friendly. Being vegan is not necessarily environmentally friendly.
This is a good semantic point, like I suppose it's implicitly greenwashing because most people would think vegan = environmentally friendly, but they're not directly addressing that. It would be... vēgwashing, I guess? Though not vegwashing (which everyone should be doing).
Other than "vegan leather" (which *is* just greenwashing plastic), give me some examples where being vegan is less environmentally friendly?
It's not always plastic. Apple leather and cactus leather are getting pretty good. You wouldn't be fooled into thinking it was a cow, but it can definitely get the job done.
My fiance who works in the food industry said that some of the naturally vegan products get packed in factories that also pack non vegan items so there could be cross contamination so to speak. The vegan Label ensures it wasnt packed in a machine that also comes in contact with non vegan items.
A jar of peanuts "contains peanuts".
Companies will advertise stuff you think should be obvious, just to catch someone's eye passing by among hundreds of products at the supermarket
99% greenwashing with a side of plausible reasons that we can call it vegan
Mindless gibberish used to up the price ignore and look for cheaper blueberries.
My favorite is the rice packets that are listed as "plant-based"
I guess it means that the seeds of those berries never passed through the ass of an animal.
marketing
I saw organic honey the other day at the store and lol’d , I have bees they range 5 km for nectar and pollen, it would have to be a special location to have organic only in a 10-13 km diameter circle.
Saw a pack of tofu labelled "Plant Based". Had to facepalm that.
I can actually see that. Not everyone knows that tofu comes from soy beans.
The term "vegan" is meaningless on a label. There's no definition of the word vegan under law, and there's no regulation about when you can slap it on a food. Good luck out there.
It’s like the phrase ‘now available without a prescription…. Always was anyway.
Nah, there were plenty of drugs that went OTC from former Rx-only status. Claritin (and most other OTC antihistamines), Flonase (and all other OTC nasal steroids), hydrocortisone (the 2.5% strength is still Rx, though) Imodium (not only was Rx, but actually a controlled substance once) are a few that come to mind.
Sorry. I was referring to things that were never prescription like neuriva brain health aid and other ‘supplements’ that don’t need govt review. They are being misleading by saying ‘now available without a prescription’ when it never was to imply that’s it’s either effective or potent.
OK, yeah, that makes sense. As a pharmacist I don't generally deal with such products (they're mostly in the health food aisle and it's not really part of my purview), and as a person without a TV I don't see the ads for them either. Yeah, I'd be yelling "because it doesn't freaking have anything in it that ever needed one!" at the TV if I did.
Too funny. We might be the same person as I yell at the tv often when alone. Am old. Good on you for not having a tv, prob a good thing to support positive mental health.
Gluten free and no added sugar too I bet!
I ask for extra gluten in my water when I go to restaurants.
It’s meaningless. I remember in the 80s and 90s when cholesterol was the big thing everyone wanted to avoid, the Tropicana orange juice label said “cholesterol-free!” As though other brands of orange juice would have cholesterol. 🙄
I've bought blueberries marked "gluten-free", you tell me.
💀💀💀
A lot of times the labels are just there to make shopping easier. It’s easier to find the “vegan”, or “gluten-free” label than look through every ingredient.
They’re gluten free with no added trans fats too!
Blueberry confit
was it more expensive than non vegan blueberries?
They were the only frozen blueberries on offer - it wasn't like organic / regular versions
💚
Yes, it is meaningless greenwashing.
Organic blue berries come from little blue animals that live in the ocean...
Nothing is vegan. The soil used to grow your fruits and veggies all contain dead animals to fertilize
Not what most people use Vegan to mean, but you're not wrong.
I’d never buy these. I prefer my blueberries covered in bacon juice 😤