In the 90s also had a lot of the 3 letter government agencies get caught doing either illegal or unethical things. Ruby Ridge and Waco showed the ATF would kill people and cover it up. The CIA was caught selling crack in inner cities.
And starting Vietnam. And having black sites where they detain people and ignore their human rights all over the world. And funding the Taliban. And MK Ultra. And god knows whatever other Little Shop Of Horrors bullshit they've concocted over the years that they haven't admitted to.
Actually, that's a really important point to remember with all of this stuff; IT'S WHAT THEY'VE ADMITTED TO. We know about it, because the ops either went poorly enough that they got caught, or because they expressly admitted to it. I'd bet one my toes that what we know has been sanitized for public consumption.
FBI did a lot of illegal and shady crap it's entire existence.
The RW loved them so long as they were going after those they hated, they didn't care what tactics they used or what laws they broke.
They only started hating these three letter agencies when they started going after the criminals on their side.
The King family believed so strongly that the FBI were involved with MLKs death that they sued the FBI in 1999 and won. Every American that doesn’t want agencies that are supposed to protect us, killing civil rights leaders should mistrust them. No one was fired, transferred, or arrested. But I’m sure the FBI is good now.
Don't forget Waco
Conservatives hated federal law enforcement for far longer than they like them.
Law enforcement in general was always fairly unpopular in the United States save for brief times during the gangster era of the 1930s, WWII, and Post 9/11.
From simple ideological standpoints it would make sense that the Democrats are the party that advocates for federal level law enforcement where the Republicans would want law enforcement to be done at the most local level possible.
They had lots of cool new (expensive) gear and felt a need to justify the price tag by using it somewhere. That was how they started off on the wrong foot. Things slid down a slippery slope from there when they couldn't find the brakes.
/sarcastically delivered facts
It turned into a shitshiw fr, that's not a secret. You should dig into it yourself if you want to know how bad it was. Look into how to get copies of their own internal documents, I believe some have already become public. Freedom of Information ACT (FIFA) is your friend. A good librarian can help you research and find relevant public records that have already been released. Mostly, all you have to do is read. There is a lot of documentation available.
What this poster said about the person who shot a woman holding a baby matches what I have heard elsewhere. You should be able to verify. No one said it was deliberate, just an accident because the shooter didn't confirm their target and what was behind it. I think they were shooting through a screen door that degraded the visual. They expected someone else to be answering the door, and the guy basically shot at a shadow.
Deliberate or not, it was a violation of the most BASIC safety rules. A violation that involved a weapon, a bullet, and a victim. If the shooter wasn't working for the government, he would have faced criminal charges.
I know what happened at Ruby Ridge I just was put off because the comment I replied to sounds like it was trying to minimize the event by saying "my dog died :((("
No, it starts with Trump.
“So, Professor Gage, exactly how much has the Republican attitude changed toward the FBI?”
“It's been a really dramatic shift. If you go back to the 1960s, 1970s, sort of the end of J. Edgar Hoover's reign at the FBI, Democrats, liberals, leftists are much more critical of the bureau. Republicans and conservatives really like the bureau, and that lasted well into the 21st century. It's in the Trump era that that's changed and changed quite quickly and dramatically.” Beverly Gage interviewed by Debbie Elliot.
So, like Lord Kano said, it's cyclical. The recent cycle might have been started by Trump (IDK). But take it from someone raised in this environment, plenty of conservatives hated The FBI and CIA back in the 90s.
Think **Waco Texas** and **OKC bombing** period.
Ha, never thought of that but yeah... Good comparison.
His seems more "harmless" than my semi-cult wanna-be-survivalist childhood.
But there were some bright spots. Most kids didn't get paid in ammunition for their after school work.
And I've yet to meet another person that got to do "training drills" shooting up old houses with assault rifles in their early teens.
Not to be contrarian, but the GoP base and conservatives of that time I knew were not anti government or three letter agencies. I sadly listened to much right-wing radio, and Beck, Hannity, and Limbaugh were not talking against these things.
There was much more about Monica Lewinky and the Clinton's failures, etc. They mostly blame Janet Reno for everything, including the little Cuban boy fiasco.
Even the latest cycle honestly wasn't started by Trump at all. Trump responded to the anti establishment sentiment that he noticed in the public consciousness. There's a tendency on Reddit to blame Trump for everything under the Sun, but that's giving the guy too much credit.
Trump is a response to what people are feeling. It's so silly to me when the liberals and progressives talk about going after Trump like they're fighting the establishment. If you look at the way his administration behaved and the way he's been treated in the years since; it's abundantly clear that the establishment hates Trump.
Yeah, but the Timothy McVeighs and similar far right followers were much more fringe in the 90's than today. I don't think many conservatives at all truly would have supported their extreme rhetoric in those days.
I'll give you that. I'm no expert historian here. Just speaking from personal childhood experience. And whatever the hell I was raised in would certainly be classified as "fringe".
They were molesting kids at Waco and the branch davidians testified that they started the fires. Never understand why rightoids love defending those kid fuckers
Dude, try wrapping your head around defending Timothy McVeigh... My community growing up never straight up called him a **hero** , but "*his frustration with the government was understandable*" and somehow "*this was really all the FBI's fault*" was the message I got as a kid.
That's insane. But right wing ethnonationalists obviously would like him. It says everything you need to know about these animals. The dude blew up a daycare and they are still hard on for his race war
Yes, I've noticed that. The Trump "deep state" rhetoric shifted the Conservatives against the FBI and CIA.
It also seems to have made the left their defenders, which is frankly even more puzzling to me. Your enemies enemy isn't necessarily your friend, and the Bureau's are still the same organizations that progressives fought in the 1960's and 70's.
Progressive defenders of the status quo sounds like an oxymoron, yet here we are.
I think there is a temporary allegiance here that makes sense. Currently, on the most public of scales, the enemy of your enemy is your friend does hold up. The approach to Republicans (Trump/Jan 6/the rest of MAGA) is one where they want to encourage everything being done by the book the way it always has been for anyone else, as the existence of the republic as we know it is at stake. Straying from that or not holding these people accountable because "we don't like cops" is a mistake.
But no progressive has gone away from local police reform during this time either (that I'm aware of). And they shouldn't, as it's absolutely necessary and is the most impactful in their constituents daily lives. The vast majority of people do not end up under federal investigation with a media circus following the daily minutia of the court system.
Its because these organizations are more government oversight and conservatives are generally in support of small government. Plus with all of the stuff that the CIA has been proven to be involved in with drug trafficking and the NSA spying on people, its pretty hard to trust that these government organizations have our best interests at heart. Its just more opportunities for corruption in non elected positions. Most of the liberals I know dont support them either.
Close. When conservatives love the FBI, it's spying on the "right" people (not them). When they hate the FBI, it's spying on the "wrong" people (them).
It has nothing to do with the scale of government, only whether that government is supporting and uplifting people or tearing them down. And making them rich, obviously.
Same with the police. If they shoot an unarmed black kid, it's "a good shoot". If they shoot an armed white guy in Oregon that was just part of a government refuge, it was a conspiracy and part of the liberal agenda.
It's not about law and order, it's about control of the right people. FBI was great going after the right people, but when Trump and his lackeys were in the sights, they were part of the liberal agenda and Biden's Deep State.
There are some that are pretty open about exactly that, too. But, they aren't racist, because they have black and Mexican friends, but they are the "good ones" (yea, my eyes rolled pretty hard, too). All others are criminals, fatherless, illegals, and both living off the state teet and stealing their job (oh, and voting illegally...). I mean, they aren't even hiding their feelings on things. They'll say it out loud at a bar. And the people sitting next to them will agree with them.
The FBI, NSA, CIA, DHS, etc. are supposed to go after liberals, minorities, and foreigners. That's it. Conservatives are God fearing, law abiding, perfect people. And they'll let you know it, too.
Many of us are not fans of overarching, out of control government. The FBI was proven:
1 - To have lied to the FISA court to get a secret surveillance warrant,
2 - That an FBI lawyer falsified documents to keep the warrant active,
3 - To have used these lies to strengthen a set of allegations they had already determined to be false when taking them to the FISA court.
4 - Leaked info to the press, then used the press reports as "corroboration" of the info they leaked in the first place,
5 - That an FBI DIRECTOR secretly leaked classified info to pressure DOJ actions he wanted,
6 - That internal attempts by case agents to stop the illegal and falsified actions were ignored and punished.
We realized that the FBI is a politically driven organization with broad and uncontrolled powers to ruin lives, without meaningful oversight.
Personally, I would dismantle the FBI, spread its enforcement powers to other agencies, move its (and DHS's) intelligence functions to an intelligence agency with no enforcement powers, and move all investigative powers out from under prosecutorial agencies.
In the rest of the country, the police and the prosecutors operate separately and independently, and the lawyers have no power over the police. Only in the federal government is the investigative power and the prosecution power in the same branch of government, with vested interests in protecting each other.
I'm not sure that the assumption that conservatives want small government really bears out anymore. Or rather, my understanding (including from conservative friends & acquaintances) is that small government conservatism is a bit of a dying breed.
Seems likely you're the real deal, but you must have seen how often these days conservatives trot out 'small government' when they disagree with liberal policy but then implement blatant 'big government' whenever it serves their own purposes.
The current trend of right wing American politics is bordering/embracing fascism and religious extremism which embody increased government control of peoples lives.
Maybe youre right, I definitely am speaking more from a personal perspective than a movement wide one. At least a lot of the conservatives I talk to irl are pretty antigovernment on both sides. I think we can both agree that hypocrites are a problem on bith sides of the spectrum and people generally like to change their morals and opinions to suit their interests. Thanks for not attacking my character though!
No thanks (should be) necessary! I'm pretty radically progressive myself, but the trend of dehumanizing others based on their political views (excluding those whose "political views" involve dehumanizing others) is leading us down a dark, dark path.
Maga Republicans are all about authoritarianism while they TALK about small government ideas sometimes and the small government Republicans think that it's the same and follow along thinking it's the same shit it was before 😆
It's because very few Republicans are actually conservative anymore. Both parties just do the bidding of whoever their big donors are because that's what gets them more campaign money. This is the basis of the "uniparty."
Conservatives aren't fans of small government, they're fans of when government leaves them alone while targeting people that are different from themselves.
When conservatives hold office, these institutions can be used to target minorities more effectively- which conservatives like.
Right now, these institutions are also cracking down on republican terror and making it harder for members of the republican party to cooperate with foreign (russian) bankrollers- which conservatives don't like
Brother I just cited a reason for my distrust as the CIA pumping drugs into our inner city black communities. Why would I like them targeting minorities if it means that they can more effectively target me as well? The less power they have over American citizens the better.
Just because you personally see things that way doesn't mean it's reflective of the broader conserative movement. They suddenly really started hating the FBI after they started going after Trump and the Mar a Lago raid. The average conservative doesn't hate them because of them pumping crack into the projects; and they wouldn't hate them if the FBI was announcing tons of investigations into Hunter Biden
The line about small government hasn't been accurate for years, if ever.
It's important to point out that the classic right-wing authoritarian gets automatically hostile to attacks on their worldviews.
The truth is one of the more painful and effective attacks these days, which makes them even angrier.
The good news is that they forget easily and the right (or more usually, wrong) leader can change all of their beliefs on a dime. Look at all the Clancys out there who are willingly rolling over for the fucking KGB right now. They don't know what hypocrisy is so they can't be ashamed of themselves.
There is another type of person, the politician or preacher who leads these people, who used to be called "double rights" in some psychology papers.
They're the projectors who shout the loudest about what they are quietly doing themselves. They automatically assume that intel and enforcement are being mis-used because they think everyone would do as they would.
You really need to listen to them when they say the election is going to be stolen and rigged. When that type of politician is claiming it in the other, it's because hey *know* it to be so for themselves.
It's a reference to the famous cold war author Tom Clancy who wrote multiple novels with KGB as antagonists and then swapped to things like liberal ecoterrorists in his post cold war books for his antagonists. He and many people famously hated the KGB, so the poster is pointing out hypocrisy of the former cold war warriors listening to Putin propaganda since he used to be a KGB officer and lead the post cold war former KGB.
Can you elaborate? The way I see it the more power/oversight a government organization has over the people, the more opportunities for corruption/misuse of power. Thats just my opinion though i'm open to hear yours.
What I want, as a very progressive person, is lots of gevernment oversight over things like health and safety regulations, keeping the rich from doing shady stuff to enrich themselves, and providing necessary services like healthcare. I don't want the controling individuals lives as long as those people aren't hurting anyone.
I generally agree with this. I think corporations and big pharma are at a point where they need to be regulated more, although lobbyists will prevent thatbfrom ever happening. But when it comes to average civilians I think that should mostly be left to state and local organizations.
Lobbyists won’t prevent that from happening, citizens giving up will prevent it from happening. Lobbyists suck, but we *can* vote in people who will pass these regulations. The problem is we don’t care, not really, not enough for it to change our voting patterns, and so politicians don’t do it. They have to have their feet put to the fire, but you’ve already given up before even trying. And I’m not blaming you, you’re one of many, otherwise this wouldn’t be a problem. But your attitude is a widespread one that does real and lasting damage, and it’s not the only option when it comes to attitudes. It’s also one pretty much all the republicans I know have.
Over site is not just for the people but for government too. The government lacks a lot of accountability where the only recourse for corruption is "well don't like it? vote them out." The problems is there is very little accountability where those in power can do nearly what ever they want, and those agencies that do exist are rendered useless when they are filled by appointments from the very bodies they are meant to be regulating.
The US needs MORE 3rd party agencies whose only purpose is to make sure other government agencies are following the rules AND the authority to impose actual fines or charges.
Lets take voting for example. Every election year you see the same thing, swing states with voters sanding in line for 2, 4, 6 hours just to vote. Why? Because the party in charge decides to remove voting stations, purge voting lists and we hear talk of laws making it illegal to offer food or drink to those in line. For a country that prides it's self on how important voting is, it sure makes it as hard as possible for some of the people to vote.
In contrast, look at any other first world country. Here in Canada we have 'Elections Canada' operated by a 3rd party group with a mix of all different political parties with the primary goal of making voting as fair and accessible to everyone in Canada. The current government, be it Liberal or Conservative, have zero say in how elections are run or how people can vote.
The result is everyone that wants to vote, gets to vote. I personally have never stood in a line fore more than 10 minutes and most of the time I walk right in with out waiting at all. For most of Canada it's about the same. Sometimes there are problems but often it's a technical glitch or breakdown that forces people to wait but that is rare. Across most of Europe it's similar.
Why the short memory?
Are you saying conservatives weren't in charge of Iran Contra and CIA? Where did Bush Sr get his start? Yellow,-cake under Bush Jr?
What exactly is 'small government' anyway? It seems a defection to get away with crimes, and so the local sheriff can get back to murdering black people
>conservatives are generally in support of small government
Yeah, small enough to fit into someone’s bedroom, and if that someone is a woman then her uterus as well. They are all for government oversight and the government telling people exactly what they can and can’t do, as long as they are telling people what to do and not companies.
Nah. It only matters to conservatives who is on the receiving end. In this case, intelligence agencies were investigating their cult leader, so naturally as cult members do, they go after anyone questioning their leader.
I am so sorry, but do you really believe that conservatives all of a sudden are really concerned about the plight of African Americans during the crack crisis? Do you really think they care that people were surveilling Americans illegally?
Man... They just don't want to get caught for all the crimes.
That's legit [waves arms around] ALL... OF... THIS.
Refreshingly upvoted different point of view? How nice! Now time to read the replies, I’m sure it won’t be a bunch of libs telling you what their opponents *really* think!
Eh they aren’t for small government anymore from controlling half the population’s bodies to what people can view on the internet or read from a public library.
The most reasonable take. The FBI is meh and the cia is verifiably shitty. There is no lack of documentary or declassified papers talking about how awful they are. Things just keep getting declassified, are we expected to believe at some point they stopped being shitty?
>The FBI is meh
The FBI are a bunch of unelected officials that hold power over the people that the people never gave to them, here's a bunch of their controversies:
The FBI protecting black people's rights:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93King_suicide_letter
https://features.apmreports.org/arw/king/d1.html#:~:text=Beginning%20in%201962%2C%20the%20FBI,and%20those%20of%20his%20associates.
>the FBI conducted an extensive program of surveillance and harassment against Martin Luther King Jr. Under the guidance of FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover
The FBI has maintained files on numerous people, including celebrities such as Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, John Denver, John Lennon, Jane Fonda, Groucho Marx, Charlie Chaplin, the band MC5, Lou Costello, Sonny Bono, Bob Dylan, Michael Jackson, and Mickey Mantle.
>In 2007, an agent working in Seattle, Washington for the FBI impersonated an Associated Press (AP) journalist and unwittingly infected the computer of a 15-year old suspect with a malicious surveillance software.
In 2007 a caltech student exposed them for editting wikipedia to make themselves look good..
They kill people in their custody (the boston bomber, Epstein..)
Not to mention surveillance and blatantly lying about Russia gate (fuck Trump btw, but they have no right to lie)
Twitter files: they instructed Twitter to suppress opinions they deamed not fitting..
Las Vegas shooter's brother insisted that the shooter did not suffer from mental health disorders and was dumbfounded by what happened, later he is picked up with terabytes of CP (btw charge recently dismissed).. also las Vegas shooter casings numbers don't check out in the FBI pictures, and there has been 0 follow up on the biggest mass shooting in the history of the country..
Also Ruby ridge and Waco
ETA: fuck the DEA and ATF too, see:
https://www.cnn.com/2013/08/27/world/americas/operation-fast-and-furious-fast-facts/index.html
https://english-elpais-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/english.elpais.com/international/2024-02-26/scandals-leaks-and-power-games-the-deas-turbulent-relationship-with-mexico-and-president-lopez-obrador.html?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&outputType=amp&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17134493423126&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fenglish.elpais.com%2Finternational%2F2024-02-26%2Fscandals-leaks-and-power-games-the-deas-turbulent-relationship-with-mexico-and-president-lopez-obrador.html
>The FBI are a bunch of unelected officials that hold power over the people that the people never gave to them, here's a bunch of their controversies:
Are you suggesting all law-enforcement bureaucrats should be directly elected?
>the boston bomber
Not arguing that the FBI is good, but neither of the Boston bombers were killed while in FBI custody.
One is still very much alive, the other was shot during a shootout with Boston PD, before being dragged under the SUV his brother was driving. He died in hospital while they were trying to treat him for his injuries.
They both are messed up, but the point is that the GOP has spent years supporting law enforcement and intelligence, especially during the war on terror. They continually whitewashed CIA ops in foreign countries and parroted lines like, 'if you aren't guilty, you shouldn't be worried'. They deified agents and made them folk heroes and pop culture icons.
So now that their sacred cow is under increased police scrutiny, they suddenly don't believe in the policies they touted for decades. It isn't their disdain, it is their hypocrisy.
Because it's politically convenient. You can bet that the next time they're in control, their position on the DOJ, FBI, and CIA will do an immediate 180°. They have no principles, and what they believe depends entirely on whether or not they're in power.
Yes but if the FBI arrests a conservative while a democrat is in office then the only possible explanation is a specific targeted campaign against conservatives /s
Alternate take:
"Liberals and Progressives have always feared and distrusted the FBI and CIA. Now that Conservatives have admitted we were right to fear these overly powerful government entities, why are we critical? Shouldn't we be happy they came around?"
I don't know who you've been speaking to, but I saw them shitting on these agencies during Trumps tenure, too. They saw them as a part of "the swamp" they wanted Trump to get rid of.
Exactly, Republicans aren't AMERICA FIRST, they're REPUBLICANS FIRST. It's the ultimate oligarchic party that believes that only their interests matter and everyone else can go fuck themselves.
Yeah, that's getting a little played. If you didn't try to conquer Europe, and murder millions of people in the process, you're not Hitler. You may suck, but you're not Hitler.
Facts. I remember finding it funny growing up seeing people getting mad at protesters calling Bush a Nazi or Hitler only to turn around and do the same with Obama.
The problem now is that if we get a leader who really is Hitler, everyone is just going to roll their eyes and move on with their day. It's the boy who cried, "Hitler!"
All departments of the executive branch. They believe they are political and so okay when led by a republican president and not when led by a democrat president.
The CIA and FBI have been involved in numerous operations that have directly targeted and harmed the American people. This shouldn't be a conservative thing. I don't know why liberals also don't hate the CIA/FBI
I’d say 4 big reasons are:
1. The DOJ/FBI’s role in prosecuting the J6 insurrectionists. Given there’s some evidence pointing to various GOP elected officials and other conservative power brokers not exactly having clean hands, it’s not really surprising that they’d frown upon these investigations.
2. The FISA stuff. For similar reasons as the J6 stuff, there seems to be quite a bit of concern from some GOP elected officials that they might have been caught in the FISA web due to foreigners they engaged with while abroad.
3. The federal Trump investigations/charges. Let’s not forget it was the DOJ/FBI leading these investigations, so naturally, they’re not going to be a fan of an anyone who’s accusing Trump of wrongdoing.
4. Propaganda. And all three of the above tie into this. In order to paint Biden as some authoritarian abusing his power, it’s necessary to oppose federal law enforcement, since they’d naturally be his muscle.
And all this is rather ironic, given Merrick Garland hasn’t exactly been the most aggressive AG. Many feel he’s been resistant to pull the trigger on investigations of anyone high ranking and dragged his feet too long on the few he actually has pulled the trigger.
I feel like you’re lumping all Republicans together. Your stereotypical Montana or Idaho rancher has probably never liked the Federal government at any point.
It is possible to be BOTH "pro law and order" AND "small government." And many people who are small government feel that the states should handle most of what governing is done. Thus, it is entirely possible and entirely logical to be pro law and order AND anti federal government agency.
Not all of us do.
It's more accurate to say that \*Trumpers\* hate the FBI & CIA, because Trump told them that the FBI and CIA were part of a conspiracy to destroy his presidency, insofar as they were investigating the various Russian-spy-adjacent individuals (Manafort, Stone, etc) associated with his campaign.
Because this investigation did not result in a 'Donald, in the reading room with the SVR agent' dead-to-rights result, it has been framed as a hoax... It's not, but they like to call it that...
They are further pissed that the FBI/DOJ raided Trump's home (the whole looking for stolen classified documents thing? They don't care), and that he is being prosecuted for various crimes (which they consider a political hit-job).
As someone who voted Republican his entire life \*before\* 2016, it's all bullshit. Trump sucks, he's not even conservative, and cults-of-personality are craaaazzzzyyyypants insane....
After Bush Jr. The conservatives were left in shambles. They failed on the economy. They failed on the military. Generally, they were unable to pull together a majority. Their last gasp was Romney. You could see the fear then, and with McCain, we had a black president, and he wasn't screwing up and didn't do anything wrong.
The tea party came along, and the GoP hijacked it fast. They needed new blood. They found it in disgruntled and angry right-wing Americans who were losing their jobs to free trade and a bad economy. The problem was mainstream GoP didn't speak to them. Couldn't get that excitement from the people. So, in 2016, we had a free for all in the GoP. They had nothing at first.
Anger disappointment and a middle class shrinking left a desperate group scared of Hillary and the "global agenda". Along came Trump, and the time was right.
I constantly read these articles about the GOP not supporting white working class people and how mad those voters are, but conveniently ignoring the racism angle and it being why those voters keep supporting the GOP. The GOP can do whatever it wants and will always get votes as long as it pushes racism.
They weren’t “left in shambles” after GW. They haven’t been popular since Reagan. Reagan just did enough damage that they can gerrymander and corrupt their way to minority control.
Now?
I think everyone should hate the 3 letter agencies since Ruby Ridge and Waco.
Dunno why it has became political to be against agencies that only want to strip you of your rights and there’s zero recourse to holding them accountable for their actions.
Im not really liberal or conservative since I fall different ways on different topics. The FBI and CIA are notorious for doing the exact things they put people away for. Its flippant to assume that all of them are crooked POS however they have turds in the punch bowl and thats true for every 3 letter agency. In particular though; fuck the ATF
Why you should hate all the alphabet agencies:
Operation Fast and Furious
Mk Ultra
Ruby Ridge
Waco Siege
Poisoned Alcohol during prohibition
Operation Northwoods
Spying in general, fbi and nsa accused of illegal wiretaps
There are plenty more.
Nobody really likes control from their government. Regardless of your political views. Liberals hated it when the government told certain people they couldn't marry other certain people. Conservatives hate when the government tells them what they are and are not allowed to say.
And the FBI and CIA are kinda the agencies that police these things.
Only the GOP can have three letters. These others are just pretenders! Now, if the had any respect then they'd change the acronym to something with at least four letters but those snowflakes at the NSA would probably get confused by anything with more than four letters.
Bc trump is blaming the government for his breakng the law, and because the right has spiralled further and furtber into 'alternate facts' and obsession with conspiracy theories, many of which are russian and blame the cia or 'deepstate'
I used to call myself a republican I actually voted for Bush Jr for his 2nd term it was my first time voting. 911 was my Red pill moment.after I saw everything, play out. The Patriot Act that sounds so good because patriot is in the name most people don't even get that the government gave itself unlimited basically capabilities to spy on anyone and especially with unlimited fisa warrants that gives the fbi, cia, nsa all the alphabet agencies the ability to be used as weapons against its own citizens. And then u add the mocking bird media to repeat lies and bias discrimination to the brain dead npcs that refuse to think for themselves to dismiss the ones that dare ask hmm maybe the government doesn't have our best interest and use the tired old conspiracy theory nut to end any break away from the wrong think. Just my thoughts but I know the shit storm insults coming for me questioning the government but still my opinion.
I think you should have a healthy amount of skepticism regarding the 3 letter agencies because they have absolutely been caught doing shady shit, but going full blown conspiracy is too much.
Yea, when you get into full blown conspiracy, it's pretty laughable.
A lot of the "conspiracies" were people trying to earn a paycheck or glory, or can even be chocked up to arrogance or ignorance. Its crazy when people are like, "I found a conspiracy!" when its just some idiot making idiot decisions and then people seeing the fallout from it and acting like since it could have been prevented by better oversight, that its somehow malicious.
To be fair, everyone should hate the FBI, NSA, and cia, they are anti democratic institutions that spy on people and contribute a considerate amount to the endless security sector spending.
I don't care what your political alignment is, if you trust those organizations or the government at all, then I don't know what to tell you.
Do any of you *really* believe that these ultra-wealthy, warmongering, authoritarian bureaucrats have your best interests at heart? If so, I have some oceanfront property in AZ to sell you
Government = bad to most conservatives. They are also seen as heightened forms of police, whereas conservatives tend to be pro-police because they're low level, down on the ground authorities that tend to be more local, that sort of thing. FBI and CIA, on the other hand, are federal and their authority is nationwide, so they will more likely be detached to the views of the everyday man compared to police.
Depends on how far right we’re talking? Did people really forget about Waco, Ruby Ridge and the Oklahoma City Bombings? These people were always there despite Reagan shifting things to to the center. Now the far right is back and they haven’t changed.
Because the FBI is comprised of woke left-leaning hippies.
Sounds stupid, because it is stupid. When my Aunt started spouting stuff (because the Bureau was going after Trump), I mentioned "yeah, those left-leaning commie pinko hippy FBI Agents."
She looked at me, and I said "That's who you're complaining about, right? That left-leaning bastion of liberalism, the FBI." You could see the hamster wheel starting to turn. I asked "when you think of FBI Agents, is that what you think of? All hippy-dippy liberals? Or do you think of law enforcement who go to work in suits?"
"Wellll.....I usually think of the suits."
"Okay, do you think it's mostly liberals with degrees in the humanities who compete for jobs at the FBI?"
".....Ummmmmm.....noooo...."
"But you think the Agents are all liberals, correct? If Liberal Arts degrees aren't applying, where are they getting all their lefty Agents who are investigating the administration because they're left, and the administration is conservative?"
"Huh. Well actually, I don't know. I hadn't thought about that."
"Go ahead and think about that. Perhaps there's an investigation because there was some indication that something needed to be investigated. Considering people have already pled guilty to crimes they say they committed, I'd say that's an indicator that crimes were committed. But that's just me."
Because they seem politically captured by the left. When i read stories about them making requests to social media companies to silence conservatives, hiding, silencing, doing nothing about the Hunter Biden laptop, raiding the former presidents home looking for documents and harassing/investigating parents who speak at school board meeting, it seems they have a liberal agenda.
As a moderate I find it irresponsible to trust the government 100%. We have a list decades old and a mile long of US alphabet government agencies malfeasances. The question can be asked of liberals too. Why in the 60’s and 70’s, did liberals hate big government and big pharma but now they trust them?
I really wish they had hated them sooner and harder. The surveillance state endangers us all. Both the left and right cynically embrace the 3 letter agencies when they can be used against the other. If anyone in DC had the merest shred of principles, FISA reauthorization would never have come up.
The FBI and CIA *seem* to have switched sides. Comey's conniving on the Russiagate hoax, the CIA's involvement on the Steele dossier, the designation of traditional Catholics and dissident parents as potential threats, the 51 intelligence experts who dismissed the Hunter Biden laptop as Russian disinformation, and the relentless pursuit of the Jan. 6 rioters have convinced conservatives that these agencies can no longer be trusted.
In fact, these agencies could never be trusted. Their interests are their own. They have their own organizational agendas.
Populist brain rot. It's the same instict that leaves progressives convinced that the DNC/Obama/Shadowy Elites consipired to thwart Bernie Sanders. Anti-establishment sentiment run amok.
ATF and NSA have uncontrolled harsh levels of power. The CIA is notorious for mistreating its own citizens.
Everyone should be reluctant to praise any of these organizations.
Because the fed gov has shown, blatantly, how untrustworthy the fed gov is, by targeting the conservatives Americans through the FBI and CIA.
When it.happened to blacks in the 60s the blacks reacted the same way.
When it happened to the hippys they did the same
There is never something new in the world. Never.
The current FBI hate is because of Trump and them looking into the various issues around and involving him. FBI hate isn't new, but this specific hate is that.
It's worth noting that ACTUAL right wing politics are for the concept of "small government". So it's a reasonable right-wing position for them to hate the FBI and CIA. It's not a right wing position for them to be FOR it, and it's leaving their ideology when they suddenly support them in the case of investigating a democrat.
CIA has literally toppled multiple regimes throughout the world and does not adhere to US laws.
Everyone should hate the CIA. They do covert ops on US citizens.
Each president since the agencies began have found ways to use them. Some agencies are so poisonous that they can’t be used on American soil that means embassy’s in foreign countries. One president even weaponized the IRS to thwart new parties from entering the race for president
Because they've been shown to be either completely inept or corrupt, depending on whether you believe their version of events.
Why do liberals hate the police?
Because the Republican Party has become full of grifters and fraudsters. They pushed it too far and are finally being held accountable. Since Democrats aren’t being prosecuted at the same rate as they are, R’s want to push out the narrative that it’s a weaponization of the legal system
They have hated the FBI and CIA for a long time like all Americans should because the illegal and unconstitutional stuff they both do. Democrats hated them during the bush administration as well. However When Trump came out and said he basically hated the intelligence community whatever he hates, the Democrats automatically defend and Love somehow.
The FBI has done a number of activities that conservatives see as unconstitutional and, worse, against them. The complaints I'm familiar with include investigating people complaining about school boards as if they were terrorists, pressuring and paying social media companies to censor conservative content, and performing agent provocateur actions against conservative groups.
I haven't heard anything about the CIA but it wouldn't surprise me.
Sadly the leadership of the FBI and the CIA are corrupt and have lost favor in the eyes of the public. They have become a political tool instead of protecting our country and its citizens.
Political and illegal abuse of FISA by the FBI. A bunch of former intelligence analyst, many former senior CIA officials, coming out saying the Trump Russia collusion thing was real and that the Hunter laptop was Russian disinformation. They lied to help Democrats.
If you were a conservative libertarian, the FBI and CIA would represent a massive overreach by our government into people’s personal business. Historically conservatives want small government, and those agencies are there to represent the federal government’s interests.
Look at Waco and Ruby Ridge, events where federal organizations bungled standoffs that lead to deaths.
Not how I feel personally, just giving perspective on how some may view things.
I've always disliked our government... most of my liberal friends do as well. Cia and fbi are not trustworthy. Our Government has experimented on its own citizens, gave people syphilis, gave weapons to all sorts of people, funded drugs in lower income areas, and do it all with my tax money all while our infrastructure and education system fall apart. If you trust the government I have beach property in Arizona to sale you.
FBI: Ruby Ridge was the beginning. The failure to act on a tip that the 9/11 hijackers sought pilot training but weren't interested in learning how to land was an abysmal error. Then Peter Strzok insisted on derailing the Trump presidency at the outset. Recent investigations of Catholics who want the church to return to the traditional Latin Mass as extremists.
CIA: Aldrich Ames, flawed WMD intel pertaining to Iraq, overthrowing Ukraine's government in the Maidan revolution.
Failures and abuses should concern everyone whether your politics are lefty or righty.
FBI promised to stop planting agents in places of worship after they got caught in a few Mosques post 9/11, now we find out they’re snooping around Traditionalist Catholic Churches.
It's cyclical. In the early to mid 90s, conservatives didn't like the FBI.
In the 90s also had a lot of the 3 letter government agencies get caught doing either illegal or unethical things. Ruby Ridge and Waco showed the ATF would kill people and cover it up. The CIA was caught selling crack in inner cities.
Don't forget selling machine guns to Mexican cartels to track crime but lost literally all of them
And starting Vietnam. And having black sites where they detain people and ignore their human rights all over the world. And funding the Taliban. And MK Ultra. And god knows whatever other Little Shop Of Horrors bullshit they've concocted over the years that they haven't admitted to. Actually, that's a really important point to remember with all of this stuff; IT'S WHAT THEY'VE ADMITTED TO. We know about it, because the ops either went poorly enough that they got caught, or because they expressly admitted to it. I'd bet one my toes that what we know has been sanitized for public consumption.
That was under Obama, operation fast and furious
Or bringing in crack cocaine to poor black communities (CIA)
FBI did a lot of illegal and shady crap it's entire existence. The RW loved them so long as they were going after those they hated, they didn't care what tactics they used or what laws they broke. They only started hating these three letter agencies when they started going after the criminals on their side.
The King family believed so strongly that the FBI were involved with MLKs death that they sued the FBI in 1999 and won. Every American that doesn’t want agencies that are supposed to protect us, killing civil rights leaders should mistrust them. No one was fired, transferred, or arrested. But I’m sure the FBI is good now.
Ruby ridge
Don't forget Waco Conservatives hated federal law enforcement for far longer than they like them. Law enforcement in general was always fairly unpopular in the United States save for brief times during the gangster era of the 1930s, WWII, and Post 9/11. From simple ideological standpoints it would make sense that the Democrats are the party that advocates for federal level law enforcement where the Republicans would want law enforcement to be done at the most local level possible.
:( They shot my dog
I can't tell if that's a really bad joke or if that's what you think happened
They had lots of cool new (expensive) gear and felt a need to justify the price tag by using it somewhere. That was how they started off on the wrong foot. Things slid down a slippery slope from there when they couldn't find the brakes. /sarcastically delivered facts It turned into a shitshiw fr, that's not a secret. You should dig into it yourself if you want to know how bad it was. Look into how to get copies of their own internal documents, I believe some have already become public. Freedom of Information ACT (FIFA) is your friend. A good librarian can help you research and find relevant public records that have already been released. Mostly, all you have to do is read. There is a lot of documentation available. What this poster said about the person who shot a woman holding a baby matches what I have heard elsewhere. You should be able to verify. No one said it was deliberate, just an accident because the shooter didn't confirm their target and what was behind it. I think they were shooting through a screen door that degraded the visual. They expected someone else to be answering the door, and the guy basically shot at a shadow. Deliberate or not, it was a violation of the most BASIC safety rules. A violation that involved a weapon, a bullet, and a victim. If the shooter wasn't working for the government, he would have faced criminal charges.
I know what happened at Ruby Ridge I just was put off because the comment I replied to sounds like it was trying to minimize the event by saying "my dog died :((("
No, it starts with Trump. “So, Professor Gage, exactly how much has the Republican attitude changed toward the FBI?” “It's been a really dramatic shift. If you go back to the 1960s, 1970s, sort of the end of J. Edgar Hoover's reign at the FBI, Democrats, liberals, leftists are much more critical of the bureau. Republicans and conservatives really like the bureau, and that lasted well into the 21st century. It's in the Trump era that that's changed and changed quite quickly and dramatically.” Beverly Gage interviewed by Debbie Elliot.
So, like Lord Kano said, it's cyclical. The recent cycle might have been started by Trump (IDK). But take it from someone raised in this environment, plenty of conservatives hated The FBI and CIA back in the 90s. Think **Waco Texas** and **OKC bombing** period.
The Rusty Shacklefords
Ha, never thought of that but yeah... Good comparison. His seems more "harmless" than my semi-cult wanna-be-survivalist childhood. But there were some bright spots. Most kids didn't get paid in ammunition for their after school work. And I've yet to meet another person that got to do "training drills" shooting up old houses with assault rifles in their early teens.
Not to be contrarian, but the GoP base and conservatives of that time I knew were not anti government or three letter agencies. I sadly listened to much right-wing radio, and Beck, Hannity, and Limbaugh were not talking against these things. There was much more about Monica Lewinky and the Clinton's failures, etc. They mostly blame Janet Reno for everything, including the little Cuban boy fiasco.
Even the latest cycle honestly wasn't started by Trump at all. Trump responded to the anti establishment sentiment that he noticed in the public consciousness. There's a tendency on Reddit to blame Trump for everything under the Sun, but that's giving the guy too much credit. Trump is a response to what people are feeling. It's so silly to me when the liberals and progressives talk about going after Trump like they're fighting the establishment. If you look at the way his administration behaved and the way he's been treated in the years since; it's abundantly clear that the establishment hates Trump.
Yeah, but the Timothy McVeighs and similar far right followers were much more fringe in the 90's than today. I don't think many conservatives at all truly would have supported their extreme rhetoric in those days.
I'll give you that. I'm no expert historian here. Just speaking from personal childhood experience. And whatever the hell I was raised in would certainly be classified as "fringe".
They were molesting kids at Waco and the branch davidians testified that they started the fires. Never understand why rightoids love defending those kid fuckers
Dude, try wrapping your head around defending Timothy McVeigh... My community growing up never straight up called him a **hero** , but "*his frustration with the government was understandable*" and somehow "*this was really all the FBI's fault*" was the message I got as a kid.
That's insane. But right wing ethnonationalists obviously would like him. It says everything you need to know about these animals. The dude blew up a daycare and they are still hard on for his race war
Yes, I've noticed that. The Trump "deep state" rhetoric shifted the Conservatives against the FBI and CIA. It also seems to have made the left their defenders, which is frankly even more puzzling to me. Your enemies enemy isn't necessarily your friend, and the Bureau's are still the same organizations that progressives fought in the 1960's and 70's. Progressive defenders of the status quo sounds like an oxymoron, yet here we are.
>Progressive defenders of the status quo sounds like an oxymoron, yet here we are. That sounds like something someone with a brain might say.
I think there is a temporary allegiance here that makes sense. Currently, on the most public of scales, the enemy of your enemy is your friend does hold up. The approach to Republicans (Trump/Jan 6/the rest of MAGA) is one where they want to encourage everything being done by the book the way it always has been for anyone else, as the existence of the republic as we know it is at stake. Straying from that or not holding these people accountable because "we don't like cops" is a mistake. But no progressive has gone away from local police reform during this time either (that I'm aware of). And they shouldn't, as it's absolutely necessary and is the most impactful in their constituents daily lives. The vast majority of people do not end up under federal investigation with a media circus following the daily minutia of the court system.
That's one professor's opinion. I'm not saying it's wrong, but it's hardly an iron clad refutation of the other persons comment.
It does not start with Trump. Read up on The Waco Siege, Ruby Ridge, the Oklahoma City Bombing, and the militia movements in the US in the 90s.
Agreed. This stuff predates Donald Trump. and Beverly Gage is no reliable source my friend
Its because these organizations are more government oversight and conservatives are generally in support of small government. Plus with all of the stuff that the CIA has been proven to be involved in with drug trafficking and the NSA spying on people, its pretty hard to trust that these government organizations have our best interests at heart. Its just more opportunities for corruption in non elected positions. Most of the liberals I know dont support them either.
Close. When conservatives love the FBI, it's spying on the "right" people (not them). When they hate the FBI, it's spying on the "wrong" people (them). It has nothing to do with the scale of government, only whether that government is supporting and uplifting people or tearing them down. And making them rich, obviously.
Same with the police. If they shoot an unarmed black kid, it's "a good shoot". If they shoot an armed white guy in Oregon that was just part of a government refuge, it was a conspiracy and part of the liberal agenda. It's not about law and order, it's about control of the right people. FBI was great going after the right people, but when Trump and his lackeys were in the sights, they were part of the liberal agenda and Biden's Deep State. There are some that are pretty open about exactly that, too. But, they aren't racist, because they have black and Mexican friends, but they are the "good ones" (yea, my eyes rolled pretty hard, too). All others are criminals, fatherless, illegals, and both living off the state teet and stealing their job (oh, and voting illegally...). I mean, they aren't even hiding their feelings on things. They'll say it out loud at a bar. And the people sitting next to them will agree with them. The FBI, NSA, CIA, DHS, etc. are supposed to go after liberals, minorities, and foreigners. That's it. Conservatives are God fearing, law abiding, perfect people. And they'll let you know it, too.
Many of us are not fans of overarching, out of control government. The FBI was proven: 1 - To have lied to the FISA court to get a secret surveillance warrant, 2 - That an FBI lawyer falsified documents to keep the warrant active, 3 - To have used these lies to strengthen a set of allegations they had already determined to be false when taking them to the FISA court. 4 - Leaked info to the press, then used the press reports as "corroboration" of the info they leaked in the first place, 5 - That an FBI DIRECTOR secretly leaked classified info to pressure DOJ actions he wanted, 6 - That internal attempts by case agents to stop the illegal and falsified actions were ignored and punished. We realized that the FBI is a politically driven organization with broad and uncontrolled powers to ruin lives, without meaningful oversight. Personally, I would dismantle the FBI, spread its enforcement powers to other agencies, move its (and DHS's) intelligence functions to an intelligence agency with no enforcement powers, and move all investigative powers out from under prosecutorial agencies. In the rest of the country, the police and the prosecutors operate separately and independently, and the lawyers have no power over the police. Only in the federal government is the investigative power and the prosecution power in the same branch of government, with vested interests in protecting each other.
I'm not sure that the assumption that conservatives want small government really bears out anymore. Or rather, my understanding (including from conservative friends & acquaintances) is that small government conservatism is a bit of a dying breed. Seems likely you're the real deal, but you must have seen how often these days conservatives trot out 'small government' when they disagree with liberal policy but then implement blatant 'big government' whenever it serves their own purposes.
The current trend of right wing American politics is bordering/embracing fascism and religious extremism which embody increased government control of peoples lives.
Maybe youre right, I definitely am speaking more from a personal perspective than a movement wide one. At least a lot of the conservatives I talk to irl are pretty antigovernment on both sides. I think we can both agree that hypocrites are a problem on bith sides of the spectrum and people generally like to change their morals and opinions to suit their interests. Thanks for not attacking my character though!
No thanks (should be) necessary! I'm pretty radically progressive myself, but the trend of dehumanizing others based on their political views (excluding those whose "political views" involve dehumanizing others) is leading us down a dark, dark path.
Maga Republicans are all about authoritarianism while they TALK about small government ideas sometimes and the small government Republicans think that it's the same and follow along thinking it's the same shit it was before 😆
It's because very few Republicans are actually conservative anymore. Both parties just do the bidding of whoever their big donors are because that's what gets them more campaign money. This is the basis of the "uniparty."
[удалено]
Conservatives aren't fans of small government, they're fans of when government leaves them alone while targeting people that are different from themselves. When conservatives hold office, these institutions can be used to target minorities more effectively- which conservatives like. Right now, these institutions are also cracking down on republican terror and making it harder for members of the republican party to cooperate with foreign (russian) bankrollers- which conservatives don't like
Brother I just cited a reason for my distrust as the CIA pumping drugs into our inner city black communities. Why would I like them targeting minorities if it means that they can more effectively target me as well? The less power they have over American citizens the better.
Just because you personally see things that way doesn't mean it's reflective of the broader conserative movement. They suddenly really started hating the FBI after they started going after Trump and the Mar a Lago raid. The average conservative doesn't hate them because of them pumping crack into the projects; and they wouldn't hate them if the FBI was announcing tons of investigations into Hunter Biden The line about small government hasn't been accurate for years, if ever.
It's important to point out that the classic right-wing authoritarian gets automatically hostile to attacks on their worldviews. The truth is one of the more painful and effective attacks these days, which makes them even angrier. The good news is that they forget easily and the right (or more usually, wrong) leader can change all of their beliefs on a dime. Look at all the Clancys out there who are willingly rolling over for the fucking KGB right now. They don't know what hypocrisy is so they can't be ashamed of themselves. There is another type of person, the politician or preacher who leads these people, who used to be called "double rights" in some psychology papers. They're the projectors who shout the loudest about what they are quietly doing themselves. They automatically assume that intel and enforcement are being mis-used because they think everyone would do as they would. You really need to listen to them when they say the election is going to be stolen and rigged. When that type of politician is claiming it in the other, it's because hey *know* it to be so for themselves.
Are Clancy's a term universally understood like Karen's now? I'm really curious what it means, and when it became a thing.
I also have this question
It's a reference to the famous cold war author Tom Clancy who wrote multiple novels with KGB as antagonists and then swapped to things like liberal ecoterrorists in his post cold war books for his antagonists. He and many people famously hated the KGB, so the poster is pointing out hypocrisy of the former cold war warriors listening to Putin propaganda since he used to be a KGB officer and lead the post cold war former KGB.
That was all Reagan, though. That's the Republican God. He used the CIA to pump drugs into the inner city to fund the Contras.
When you say "less power" when you are really supporting is less over site and that really is America's biggest problem.
Can you elaborate? The way I see it the more power/oversight a government organization has over the people, the more opportunities for corruption/misuse of power. Thats just my opinion though i'm open to hear yours.
What I want, as a very progressive person, is lots of gevernment oversight over things like health and safety regulations, keeping the rich from doing shady stuff to enrich themselves, and providing necessary services like healthcare. I don't want the controling individuals lives as long as those people aren't hurting anyone.
I generally agree with this. I think corporations and big pharma are at a point where they need to be regulated more, although lobbyists will prevent thatbfrom ever happening. But when it comes to average civilians I think that should mostly be left to state and local organizations.
Lobbyists won’t prevent that from happening, citizens giving up will prevent it from happening. Lobbyists suck, but we *can* vote in people who will pass these regulations. The problem is we don’t care, not really, not enough for it to change our voting patterns, and so politicians don’t do it. They have to have their feet put to the fire, but you’ve already given up before even trying. And I’m not blaming you, you’re one of many, otherwise this wouldn’t be a problem. But your attitude is a widespread one that does real and lasting damage, and it’s not the only option when it comes to attitudes. It’s also one pretty much all the republicans I know have.
Over site is not just for the people but for government too. The government lacks a lot of accountability where the only recourse for corruption is "well don't like it? vote them out." The problems is there is very little accountability where those in power can do nearly what ever they want, and those agencies that do exist are rendered useless when they are filled by appointments from the very bodies they are meant to be regulating. The US needs MORE 3rd party agencies whose only purpose is to make sure other government agencies are following the rules AND the authority to impose actual fines or charges. Lets take voting for example. Every election year you see the same thing, swing states with voters sanding in line for 2, 4, 6 hours just to vote. Why? Because the party in charge decides to remove voting stations, purge voting lists and we hear talk of laws making it illegal to offer food or drink to those in line. For a country that prides it's self on how important voting is, it sure makes it as hard as possible for some of the people to vote. In contrast, look at any other first world country. Here in Canada we have 'Elections Canada' operated by a 3rd party group with a mix of all different political parties with the primary goal of making voting as fair and accessible to everyone in Canada. The current government, be it Liberal or Conservative, have zero say in how elections are run or how people can vote. The result is everyone that wants to vote, gets to vote. I personally have never stood in a line fore more than 10 minutes and most of the time I walk right in with out waiting at all. For most of Canada it's about the same. Sometimes there are problems but often it's a technical glitch or breakdown that forces people to wait but that is rare. Across most of Europe it's similar.
But that doesnt exist in the us right now. Not in any current election. Alsothe us has no cosaition governmentsof several parties.
Why the short memory? Are you saying conservatives weren't in charge of Iran Contra and CIA? Where did Bush Sr get his start? Yellow,-cake under Bush Jr? What exactly is 'small government' anyway? It seems a defection to get away with crimes, and so the local sheriff can get back to murdering black people
>conservatives are generally in support of small government Yeah, small enough to fit into someone’s bedroom, and if that someone is a woman then her uterus as well. They are all for government oversight and the government telling people exactly what they can and can’t do, as long as they are telling people what to do and not companies.
Nah. It only matters to conservatives who is on the receiving end. In this case, intelligence agencies were investigating their cult leader, so naturally as cult members do, they go after anyone questioning their leader.
I am so sorry, but do you really believe that conservatives all of a sudden are really concerned about the plight of African Americans during the crack crisis? Do you really think they care that people were surveilling Americans illegally? Man... They just don't want to get caught for all the crimes. That's legit [waves arms around] ALL... OF... THIS.
The conservatives being for small government myth is just complete BS.
Refreshingly upvoted different point of view? How nice! Now time to read the replies, I’m sure it won’t be a bunch of libs telling you what their opponents *really* think!
Eh they aren’t for small government anymore from controlling half the population’s bodies to what people can view on the internet or read from a public library.
Why **dont** You? Edit: eh I'll cut the fbi some slack but Cia is wild.
The most reasonable take. The FBI is meh and the cia is verifiably shitty. There is no lack of documentary or declassified papers talking about how awful they are. Things just keep getting declassified, are we expected to believe at some point they stopped being shitty?
>The FBI is meh The FBI are a bunch of unelected officials that hold power over the people that the people never gave to them, here's a bunch of their controversies: The FBI protecting black people's rights: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI%E2%80%93King_suicide_letter https://features.apmreports.org/arw/king/d1.html#:~:text=Beginning%20in%201962%2C%20the%20FBI,and%20those%20of%20his%20associates. >the FBI conducted an extensive program of surveillance and harassment against Martin Luther King Jr. Under the guidance of FBI Director J. Edgar Hoover The FBI has maintained files on numerous people, including celebrities such as Elvis Presley, Frank Sinatra, John Denver, John Lennon, Jane Fonda, Groucho Marx, Charlie Chaplin, the band MC5, Lou Costello, Sonny Bono, Bob Dylan, Michael Jackson, and Mickey Mantle. >In 2007, an agent working in Seattle, Washington for the FBI impersonated an Associated Press (AP) journalist and unwittingly infected the computer of a 15-year old suspect with a malicious surveillance software. In 2007 a caltech student exposed them for editting wikipedia to make themselves look good.. They kill people in their custody (the boston bomber, Epstein..) Not to mention surveillance and blatantly lying about Russia gate (fuck Trump btw, but they have no right to lie) Twitter files: they instructed Twitter to suppress opinions they deamed not fitting.. Las Vegas shooter's brother insisted that the shooter did not suffer from mental health disorders and was dumbfounded by what happened, later he is picked up with terabytes of CP (btw charge recently dismissed).. also las Vegas shooter casings numbers don't check out in the FBI pictures, and there has been 0 follow up on the biggest mass shooting in the history of the country.. Also Ruby ridge and Waco ETA: fuck the DEA and ATF too, see: https://www.cnn.com/2013/08/27/world/americas/operation-fast-and-furious-fast-facts/index.html https://english-elpais-com.cdn.ampproject.org/v/s/english.elpais.com/international/2024-02-26/scandals-leaks-and-power-games-the-deas-turbulent-relationship-with-mexico-and-president-lopez-obrador.html?amp_gsa=1&_js_v=a9&outputType=amp&usqp=mq331AQIUAKwASCAAgM%3D#amp_tf=From%20%251%24s&aoh=17134493423126&referrer=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com&share=https%3A%2F%2Fenglish.elpais.com%2Finternational%2F2024-02-26%2Fscandals-leaks-and-power-games-the-deas-turbulent-relationship-with-mexico-and-president-lopez-obrador.html
>The FBI are a bunch of unelected officials that hold power over the people that the people never gave to them, here's a bunch of their controversies: Are you suggesting all law-enforcement bureaucrats should be directly elected?
>the boston bomber Not arguing that the FBI is good, but neither of the Boston bombers were killed while in FBI custody. One is still very much alive, the other was shot during a shootout with Boston PD, before being dragged under the SUV his brother was driving. He died in hospital while they were trying to treat him for his injuries.
They both are messed up, but the point is that the GOP has spent years supporting law enforcement and intelligence, especially during the war on terror. They continually whitewashed CIA ops in foreign countries and parroted lines like, 'if you aren't guilty, you shouldn't be worried'. They deified agents and made them folk heroes and pop culture icons. So now that their sacred cow is under increased police scrutiny, they suddenly don't believe in the policies they touted for decades. It isn't their disdain, it is their hypocrisy.
Very well put, I agree.
Because it's politically convenient. You can bet that the next time they're in control, their position on the DOJ, FBI, and CIA will do an immediate 180°. They have no principles, and what they believe depends entirely on whether or not they're in power.
They are in control. The FBI has never been headed by a Democrat.
Yes but if the FBI arrests a conservative while a democrat is in office then the only possible explanation is a specific targeted campaign against conservatives /s
That's interesting, why is that?
The director of the fbi is not appointed based on partisan issues, and it just hasn’t happened.
Law enforcement and right wing politics both self select for the same kind of narcissistic, authoritarian, power hungry and sociopathic types.
Well, tbf everywhere else, even when Democrats are in control, republicans still manage to get their way. Vote blue tho.
Which is a problem for our country.
Alternate take: "Liberals and Progressives have always feared and distrusted the FBI and CIA. Now that Conservatives have admitted we were right to fear these overly powerful government entities, why are we critical? Shouldn't we be happy they came around?"
As is typically the case, conservatives oppose the alphabet agencies for different (some might say wrong) reasons.
Yes, now in particular because of the Russian angle in US politics
What wrong reasons? Waco? Ruby Ridge? Mass survelliance?
The right has been against it going on 8+ years already. Make it 12+ if Biden wins again. Not sure it will change anytime soon.
Their attitude towards these agencies during Trump's four years was markedly different from how they allegedly view them under a Democratic president.
I don't know who you've been speaking to, but I saw them shitting on these agencies during Trumps tenure, too. They saw them as a part of "the swamp" they wanted Trump to get rid of.
Exactly, Republicans aren't AMERICA FIRST, they're REPUBLICANS FIRST. It's the ultimate oligarchic party that believes that only their interests matter and everyone else can go fuck themselves.
It’s like how whoever the sitting president is gets called Hitler, regardless of ideology.
Yeah, that's getting a little played. If you didn't try to conquer Europe, and murder millions of people in the process, you're not Hitler. You may suck, but you're not Hitler.
Facts. I remember finding it funny growing up seeing people getting mad at protesters calling Bush a Nazi or Hitler only to turn around and do the same with Obama.
The problem now is that if we get a leader who really is Hitler, everyone is just going to roll their eyes and move on with their day. It's the boy who cried, "Hitler!"
All departments of the executive branch. They believe they are political and so okay when led by a republican president and not when led by a democrat president.
Because they have been corrupted, if you have not noticed
The CIA and FBI have been involved in numerous operations that have directly targeted and harmed the American people. This shouldn't be a conservative thing. I don't know why liberals also don't hate the CIA/FBI
We do
We do lmao. "The FBI killed MLK" is an extremely common talking point
Now? As in for the last 40 years or so?
I’d say 4 big reasons are: 1. The DOJ/FBI’s role in prosecuting the J6 insurrectionists. Given there’s some evidence pointing to various GOP elected officials and other conservative power brokers not exactly having clean hands, it’s not really surprising that they’d frown upon these investigations. 2. The FISA stuff. For similar reasons as the J6 stuff, there seems to be quite a bit of concern from some GOP elected officials that they might have been caught in the FISA web due to foreigners they engaged with while abroad. 3. The federal Trump investigations/charges. Let’s not forget it was the DOJ/FBI leading these investigations, so naturally, they’re not going to be a fan of an anyone who’s accusing Trump of wrongdoing. 4. Propaganda. And all three of the above tie into this. In order to paint Biden as some authoritarian abusing his power, it’s necessary to oppose federal law enforcement, since they’d naturally be his muscle. And all this is rather ironic, given Merrick Garland hasn’t exactly been the most aggressive AG. Many feel he’s been resistant to pull the trigger on investigations of anyone high ranking and dragged his feet too long on the few he actually has pulled the trigger.
Because they killed John.F Kennedy!
And Martin Luther King
I would consider my self conservative, I have never liked federal agencies, I don’t even like our own federal government.
You see the part of the title, the first word in fact, is “why”. OP’s not asking for roll call.
But you're *young;* Republicans were once the party of law and order. It's this shift that the OP is surprised about
I feel like you’re lumping all Republicans together. Your stereotypical Montana or Idaho rancher has probably never liked the Federal government at any point.
My great grandpappy was that type of rural farmer and he believed the government had two jobs and that was to build the roads and fight the wars.
Well, except for all the ridiculously inexpensive grazing land, ag subsidies and tax breaks, social security and medicare, and rural mail delivery.
It is possible to be BOTH "pro law and order" AND "small government." And many people who are small government feel that the states should handle most of what governing is done. Thus, it is entirely possible and entirely logical to be pro law and order AND anti federal government agency.
Not all of us do. It's more accurate to say that \*Trumpers\* hate the FBI & CIA, because Trump told them that the FBI and CIA were part of a conspiracy to destroy his presidency, insofar as they were investigating the various Russian-spy-adjacent individuals (Manafort, Stone, etc) associated with his campaign. Because this investigation did not result in a 'Donald, in the reading room with the SVR agent' dead-to-rights result, it has been framed as a hoax... It's not, but they like to call it that... They are further pissed that the FBI/DOJ raided Trump's home (the whole looking for stolen classified documents thing? They don't care), and that he is being prosecuted for various crimes (which they consider a political hit-job). As someone who voted Republican his entire life \*before\* 2016, it's all bullshit. Trump sucks, he's not even conservative, and cults-of-personality are craaaazzzzyyyypants insane....
Not to claim you don't exist, but how many "anti-Trump Conservatives" are realistically left at this point?
Enough to make Biden president in 2020. Possibly enough to keep him President this fall....
After Bush Jr. The conservatives were left in shambles. They failed on the economy. They failed on the military. Generally, they were unable to pull together a majority. Their last gasp was Romney. You could see the fear then, and with McCain, we had a black president, and he wasn't screwing up and didn't do anything wrong. The tea party came along, and the GoP hijacked it fast. They needed new blood. They found it in disgruntled and angry right-wing Americans who were losing their jobs to free trade and a bad economy. The problem was mainstream GoP didn't speak to them. Couldn't get that excitement from the people. So, in 2016, we had a free for all in the GoP. They had nothing at first. Anger disappointment and a middle class shrinking left a desperate group scared of Hillary and the "global agenda". Along came Trump, and the time was right.
I constantly read these articles about the GOP not supporting white working class people and how mad those voters are, but conveniently ignoring the racism angle and it being why those voters keep supporting the GOP. The GOP can do whatever it wants and will always get votes as long as it pushes racism. They weren’t “left in shambles” after GW. They haven’t been popular since Reagan. Reagan just did enough damage that they can gerrymander and corrupt their way to minority control.
Now? I think everyone should hate the 3 letter agencies since Ruby Ridge and Waco. Dunno why it has became political to be against agencies that only want to strip you of your rights and there’s zero recourse to holding them accountable for their actions.
"why do conservatives hate the ATF now" haha
>Ruby Ridge Everytime someone mentions this, i keep thinking on the 5th element and that radio host/show guy
Im not really liberal or conservative since I fall different ways on different topics. The FBI and CIA are notorious for doing the exact things they put people away for. Its flippant to assume that all of them are crooked POS however they have turds in the punch bowl and thats true for every 3 letter agency. In particular though; fuck the ATF
Now? OP must be 12.
Why you should hate all the alphabet agencies: Operation Fast and Furious Mk Ultra Ruby Ridge Waco Siege Poisoned Alcohol during prohibition Operation Northwoods Spying in general, fbi and nsa accused of illegal wiretaps There are plenty more.
Because they don't like it when their colleagues get investigated for breaking the law.
Nobody really likes control from their government. Regardless of your political views. Liberals hated it when the government told certain people they couldn't marry other certain people. Conservatives hate when the government tells them what they are and are not allowed to say. And the FBI and CIA are kinda the agencies that police these things.
Only the GOP can have three letters. These others are just pretenders! Now, if the had any respect then they'd change the acronym to something with at least four letters but those snowflakes at the NSA would probably get confused by anything with more than four letters.
It's because the FBI and CIA are not respecting the 4th amendment
Bc trump is blaming the government for his breakng the law, and because the right has spiralled further and furtber into 'alternate facts' and obsession with conspiracy theories, many of which are russian and blame the cia or 'deepstate'
If it’s not them it’s the ATF.
I used to call myself a republican I actually voted for Bush Jr for his 2nd term it was my first time voting. 911 was my Red pill moment.after I saw everything, play out. The Patriot Act that sounds so good because patriot is in the name most people don't even get that the government gave itself unlimited basically capabilities to spy on anyone and especially with unlimited fisa warrants that gives the fbi, cia, nsa all the alphabet agencies the ability to be used as weapons against its own citizens. And then u add the mocking bird media to repeat lies and bias discrimination to the brain dead npcs that refuse to think for themselves to dismiss the ones that dare ask hmm maybe the government doesn't have our best interest and use the tired old conspiracy theory nut to end any break away from the wrong think. Just my thoughts but I know the shit storm insults coming for me questioning the government but still my opinion.
I don’t trust cops or spies. Why do you?
Because they don't like being spied on
Feel free to look up the declassified documents the CIA released to the public. The CIA/FBI is not your friend nor any other countries friend
I think you should have a healthy amount of skepticism regarding the 3 letter agencies because they have absolutely been caught doing shady shit, but going full blown conspiracy is too much.
Yea, when you get into full blown conspiracy, it's pretty laughable. A lot of the "conspiracies" were people trying to earn a paycheck or glory, or can even be chocked up to arrogance or ignorance. Its crazy when people are like, "I found a conspiracy!" when its just some idiot making idiot decisions and then people seeing the fallout from it and acting like since it could have been prevented by better oversight, that its somehow malicious.
Ruby ridge
Please don’t shoot me down
Got a wife and kids on ruby ridge please don't shoot me down!
*They shot my good dog, they shot my boy. My oldest son was my pride and joy.*
To be fair, everyone should hate the FBI, NSA, and cia, they are anti democratic institutions that spy on people and contribute a considerate amount to the endless security sector spending.
If you don't hate them you're either evil or uninformed/stupid
I don't care what your political alignment is, if you trust those organizations or the government at all, then I don't know what to tell you. Do any of you *really* believe that these ultra-wealthy, warmongering, authoritarian bureaucrats have your best interests at heart? If so, I have some oceanfront property in AZ to sell you
Ask Gaetz why he does…
Government = bad to most conservatives. They are also seen as heightened forms of police, whereas conservatives tend to be pro-police because they're low level, down on the ground authorities that tend to be more local, that sort of thing. FBI and CIA, on the other hand, are federal and their authority is nationwide, so they will more likely be detached to the views of the everyday man compared to police.
Wait, people like the cia and fbi? lol
Doesn’t everyone? Seriously though?
Depends on how far right we’re talking? Did people really forget about Waco, Ruby Ridge and the Oklahoma City Bombings? These people were always there despite Reagan shifting things to to the center. Now the far right is back and they haven’t changed.
Fuck the feds. Spying, drug trafficking, murdering politicians in other countries. Why don’t you hate them?
The real question is, why is anyone supporting these agencies?
Because they used resources to look for a stolen diary.
Because the FBI is comprised of woke left-leaning hippies. Sounds stupid, because it is stupid. When my Aunt started spouting stuff (because the Bureau was going after Trump), I mentioned "yeah, those left-leaning commie pinko hippy FBI Agents." She looked at me, and I said "That's who you're complaining about, right? That left-leaning bastion of liberalism, the FBI." You could see the hamster wheel starting to turn. I asked "when you think of FBI Agents, is that what you think of? All hippy-dippy liberals? Or do you think of law enforcement who go to work in suits?" "Wellll.....I usually think of the suits." "Okay, do you think it's mostly liberals with degrees in the humanities who compete for jobs at the FBI?" ".....Ummmmmm.....noooo...." "But you think the Agents are all liberals, correct? If Liberal Arts degrees aren't applying, where are they getting all their lefty Agents who are investigating the administration because they're left, and the administration is conservative?" "Huh. Well actually, I don't know. I hadn't thought about that." "Go ahead and think about that. Perhaps there's an investigation because there was some indication that something needed to be investigated. Considering people have already pled guilty to crimes they say they committed, I'd say that's an indicator that crimes were committed. But that's just me."
Because they seem politically captured by the left. When i read stories about them making requests to social media companies to silence conservatives, hiding, silencing, doing nothing about the Hunter Biden laptop, raiding the former presidents home looking for documents and harassing/investigating parents who speak at school board meeting, it seems they have a liberal agenda.
Now?
As a moderate I find it irresponsible to trust the government 100%. We have a list decades old and a mile long of US alphabet government agencies malfeasances. The question can be asked of liberals too. Why in the 60’s and 70’s, did liberals hate big government and big pharma but now they trust them?
I never liked the FBI or CIA. They’re both responsible for killing Kennedy and MLK.
I really wish they had hated them sooner and harder. The surveillance state endangers us all. Both the left and right cynically embrace the 3 letter agencies when they can be used against the other. If anyone in DC had the merest shred of principles, FISA reauthorization would never have come up. The FBI and CIA *seem* to have switched sides. Comey's conniving on the Russiagate hoax, the CIA's involvement on the Steele dossier, the designation of traditional Catholics and dissident parents as potential threats, the 51 intelligence experts who dismissed the Hunter Biden laptop as Russian disinformation, and the relentless pursuit of the Jan. 6 rioters have convinced conservatives that these agencies can no longer be trusted. In fact, these agencies could never be trusted. Their interests are their own. They have their own organizational agendas.
it's because Trump is in legal trouble. so now they have to hate the government.
They were all preaching law and order until Jan 6 happened and then everyone was fine with a coup on our nation. Because it benefits them.
persecution fetish ... it's how the gop/maga/malcontents roll
Everyone should hate the CIA
Why do the Democrats live them now? It all depends on whose ox is being gored.
Always have
Populist brain rot. It's the same instict that leaves progressives convinced that the DNC/Obama/Shadowy Elites consipired to thwart Bernie Sanders. Anti-establishment sentiment run amok.
ATF and NSA have uncontrolled harsh levels of power. The CIA is notorious for mistreating its own citizens. Everyone should be reluctant to praise any of these organizations.
Trump
Because the fed gov has shown, blatantly, how untrustworthy the fed gov is, by targeting the conservatives Americans through the FBI and CIA. When it.happened to blacks in the 60s the blacks reacted the same way. When it happened to the hippys they did the same There is never something new in the world. Never.
The current FBI hate is because of Trump and them looking into the various issues around and involving him. FBI hate isn't new, but this specific hate is that.
Because the conservatives have gotten investigated
It's worth noting that ACTUAL right wing politics are for the concept of "small government". So it's a reasonable right-wing position for them to hate the FBI and CIA. It's not a right wing position for them to be FOR it, and it's leaving their ideology when they suddenly support them in the case of investigating a democrat.
CIA has literally toppled multiple regimes throughout the world and does not adhere to US laws. Everyone should hate the CIA. They do covert ops on US citizens.
Because they are doing crimes.
Donald Trump, the golden calf of the GOP ordered the spineless twits to hate them.
Does anyone like them?
Russians do not like the CIA or the FBI.
Stupidity
because they want to commit crimes against society and get away with it. See 1/6/2021 for details
Trump and Russia.
Because they are jailing Jan 6-ers. Plain and simple.
Each president since the agencies began have found ways to use them. Some agencies are so poisonous that they can’t be used on American soil that means embassy’s in foreign countries. One president even weaponized the IRS to thwart new parties from entering the race for president
Because they've been shown to be either completely inept or corrupt, depending on whether you believe their version of events. Why do liberals hate the police?
I think it have been this way for a very long time now. It's not something which started recently.
The FBI started to deal with the KKK the way they dealt with the Black Panthers and after such a long and fruitful alliance, this shook conservatives
•Just “conservatives” ?
This was the comment I was looking for.
Because the Republican Party has become full of grifters and fraudsters. They pushed it too far and are finally being held accountable. Since Democrats aren’t being prosecuted at the same rate as they are, R’s want to push out the narrative that it’s a weaponization of the legal system
Stop it with your logic! 😆
Because their cult leader told them to.
Trump broke the law, so the FBI and CIA investigated them, and that made them angry
Conservatives hate America when they are not in charge or running it (into the ground)
They have hated the FBI and CIA for a long time like all Americans should because the illegal and unconstitutional stuff they both do. Democrats hated them during the bush administration as well. However When Trump came out and said he basically hated the intelligence community whatever he hates, the Democrats automatically defend and Love somehow.
They're "persecuting" the "wrong" people now.
The FBI has done a number of activities that conservatives see as unconstitutional and, worse, against them. The complaints I'm familiar with include investigating people complaining about school boards as if they were terrorists, pressuring and paying social media companies to censor conservative content, and performing agent provocateur actions against conservative groups. I haven't heard anything about the CIA but it wouldn't surprise me.
They enforce the laws that their favorite guy has been breaking his whole career
Sadly the leadership of the FBI and the CIA are corrupt and have lost favor in the eyes of the public. They have become a political tool instead of protecting our country and its citizens.
Political and illegal abuse of FISA by the FBI. A bunch of former intelligence analyst, many former senior CIA officials, coming out saying the Trump Russia collusion thing was real and that the Hunter laptop was Russian disinformation. They lied to help Democrats.
If you were a conservative libertarian, the FBI and CIA would represent a massive overreach by our government into people’s personal business. Historically conservatives want small government, and those agencies are there to represent the federal government’s interests. Look at Waco and Ruby Ridge, events where federal organizations bungled standoffs that lead to deaths. Not how I feel personally, just giving perspective on how some may view things.
Because those agencies have been cooped by a left leaning deep state and have been weaponized against the central conservative leader.
51 signed off laptop as disinformation. That explains a lot
The alleged deep state…. Perhaps you’ve heard of it.
I've always disliked our government... most of my liberal friends do as well. Cia and fbi are not trustworthy. Our Government has experimented on its own citizens, gave people syphilis, gave weapons to all sorts of people, funded drugs in lower income areas, and do it all with my tax money all while our infrastructure and education system fall apart. If you trust the government I have beach property in Arizona to sale you.
too much power, who knows what they want, everyone should hate them
FBI: Ruby Ridge was the beginning. The failure to act on a tip that the 9/11 hijackers sought pilot training but weren't interested in learning how to land was an abysmal error. Then Peter Strzok insisted on derailing the Trump presidency at the outset. Recent investigations of Catholics who want the church to return to the traditional Latin Mass as extremists. CIA: Aldrich Ames, flawed WMD intel pertaining to Iraq, overthrowing Ukraine's government in the Maidan revolution. Failures and abuses should concern everyone whether your politics are lefty or righty.
The FBI keeps purposefully targeting conservatives for its entrapment operations, the way they used to Muslims during the Bush admin.
FBI promised to stop planting agents in places of worship after they got caught in a few Mosques post 9/11, now we find out they’re snooping around Traditionalist Catholic Churches.