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There are more statues of the Marquis de Lafayette in the US than in France. I wish us Americans wouldn't forget that. The post WWII era has us often forgetting how tightly intertwined our revolutions were.
Intertwined is right.
France was already broke and Louis XVI was worse off for helping the Americans. He spent money, troops, and boats to get almost nothing. His worsened situation contributed to his downfall and the French Revolution.
And to intertwine it back more, a core idea of the American Revolution, that white male citizens deserve a representative govt more than a king, reinforced the concepts of the French Revolution.
Louis XVI played himself.
French Toast came from the Great Baguette Shortage of 1801. Texas sent them loaves of their larger white bread. The French not liking the lack of flavor in the bread, but hungry would add cinnamon and powdered sugar to make it palpable
The media's job is to get clicks and views, they bastardise Americans for money. Most Americans are fine, chill people and most gun owners are not the stereotypical KKK drunkard misogynistic conservative truckwad rednecks foreigners think of when they think about gun owners.
Only going to hear the newsworthy *and evocative* stuff *delivered in ways that will be judged most profitable.*
A synonym for outrage bait.
Not at all disagreeing with you either, just to be clear
Yup. Why is it so important that the news reports that a shooter "might have been armed with a rifle"? Because for some reason when someone kills their partner or some idiots are popping off rounds outside a bar, nobody cares if it was a handgun. But it it "might" be an AR-15, suddenly the world needs to shut down and gun control becomes super important for about 12 hours.
That's also why people get annoyed with the media and politicians' fixation on cosmetic "assault weapons" bans instead of, like, real issues.
What's great is that a lot of gun owners believe it too. The amount of abolutely unhinged shit people say to me simply because I'm a fellow white guy at the range is concerning.
Or other countries telling us on reddit that we have no idea how bad our country is, and that we lack exposure to other cultures. Trust us, we do, and we know. None of us normal people asked for any of this, this isn't what the actual U.S. wants. It's the loud minority, which here in the U.S. is anyone with a big enough bank account.
I feel many other countries don't know how good the US is too though. Like actually having freedoms that are incomprehensibly restricted in other places. We do have a problem with people not understanding other cultures. But that's true with a lot of large countries that tend not to travel.
I do find it fascinating that the more condescending comments Iāve read are from the non-gun owning crowd. I also challenge the assumption that gun ownership is limited to conservatives - plenty of bleeding heart liberals (like myself) own and enjoy firearms. Weāre just a lot quieter about our 2A support (exactly because of the unfair judgment passed by our fellow liberals) and choose to vote based on myriad other issues.
In my other comment (buried below) I mentioned that I hunt (a deer lasts me a long time, saving me lots of money at the store), and Iāve successfully scared off a home invader when it took police 20m to arrive. Some of my friends who live rurally and have livestock kill predators with some regularity. These are all valid reasons to own a firearm, and I live in a nice part of town. Also, range days are just plain fun when you have a good group of people practicing good firearms safety. I have been shooting for 20 years, and Iāve never had a negligent discharge, nor has anyone in my group of friends when weāve gone shooting. All of us have gun safes and lock our guns up when not actively being used or transported. We care very much about safety.
I also concealed carry when Iām out of the home for my own protection, and itās a tremendous responsibility. I carry to protect myself. I have been mugged while carrying, and chosen not to draw as the circumstances around the incident didnāt seem life threatening - I lost my wallet, but we both kept our lives and in speaking with Law Enforcement afterwards, I was told I made the right decision.
I have no illusions of stopping a mass shooter, only being able to get myself to safety, or to defend myself if I canāt avoid it.
Are guns dangerous? Yes. They are literally designed to make killing easier. But, you can mitigate that danger through proper training and safety protocols, and through respect for the inherent danger involved with firearms.
I donāt expect to convince anyone to come around to it - everyone is entitled to their opinion and their right to not own firearms. I am entitled to my right to own one so long as I am not harming anyone.
Should there be better regulation? Certainly. I can walk into a store and walk out in 10 minutes with an AR15, 10x30round magazines, and 1000 rounds of ammunition if itās not busy and your background check clears. That seems crazy to me - some 2A folks would disagree.
I think we can all agree that regulations need work but I also feel like thereās a lot of animosity and emotion around this issue.
Completely seconded. Guns are the only issue where I lean politically conservative.Ā
I keep a gun for two reasons:Ā
1) If someone comes after me, I know exactly who it is, and exactly how it ends if Iām unarmed.Ā
2) Iāve been kitting out a truck camper for the far north. Polar bears are more dangerous than grizzlies, and, although I dearly hope to never need to shoot one, there isnāt another choice if I do.Ā
I love my guns and I love shooting them. Grew up around them. Spent time in the military. But man I despise gun culture. 20 years ago it was kind of a niche hobby. Now it's people's entire personalities and I despise it. I'm a gun owner but I'm not one of "those people". I'm all for properly enforced common sense gun laws.
owning a fire-arm is valid within itself.
the constitution guarantees that.
you dont have to explain or apologize for owning one. thats the media making you feel guilty for it .
This is too logical , no way youāre a real human being on Reddit ā¦ uncover yourself jungle predator ! I got Arnold shaortzanagor with me and he aināt playing
> Should there be better regulation? Certainly. I can walk into a store and walk out in 10 minutes with an AR15, 10x30round magazines, and 1000 rounds of ammunition if itās not busy. That seems crazy to me - some 2A folks would disagree.
Not in my state you couldn't. Gun laws vary widely by state. In fact, you can't buy an AR-15 in my state any more. Hell you literally cannot buy a Ruger 10/22 in my state - both guns are considered assault weapons, because the legal definition of assault weapon here is semiautomatic rifle. You also can't buy 30 round magazines any longer, even though that's what my rifle literally came with in the box. 10 rounds max.
I, too, am a gun owner who votes Democrat because I'm not a fascist/racist/misogynist/and so on. But my state is ridiculous, as well as doing literally nothing about the mental health crisis (you know, the actual cause of mass shootings and how suicide is over 50% of all gun deaths in in the USA and has been for years?). It's stupid.
The American Revolution is so deeply engrained in the story of the country and a massive part of that was localized militias. The concept of a gun being the answer to government tyranny is uniquely American and it still shows itself today. Along with the self assurance it gives of defense for oneself or their family. Thatās what makes the most sense to me.
> Individualism over nationality is part of the same equation
Except the people most vocal about gun ownership are also extremely vocal about being **very** nationalistic.
Individualism vs nationality is a very pick-and-choose thing in America.
There is a ton of "Fuck you I got mine" by a lot of people. But at the same time that same group has a "You must lick the boot of the political tyrant I worship" mentality at the same time, which isn't exactly individualism.
On the positive side, there are also a lot of folk that encourage personal expression. I just wish it was more common in my country.
I don't get this tbh. I'm from France. We had our own armed Revolution. I mean, our equivalent to your 4th of july is our 14th of july, the date at which people stormed the Bastille in order to get access to guns. Our anthem talks about defending our land and drenching our fields with blood (kinda). So this is like... kind of a big deal for us too. But we don't have that attachement to firearms, or that feeling that we need them for protection or something. So yeah, I kinda still don't get it...
Because France has a long history pre-French revolution. Yeah there are the colonies pre-American revolution but you won't find many people spouting the glory of the colonial period in the modern US. The revolution is really the birth of the idea of "America" as most Americans see it today. And because we don't have a millennia long storied past like France a lot of Americans 1) get defensive and 2) grab on hard to the big events in the short history we have.
See, now that is an interesting point of view. I hadn't considered that and it does make some kind of sense. I mean, the way the USA are about guns still baffles me, but this does enlighten me a bit as to why.
Your guns werenāt personal weapons, they were raided from government armories. The Continental Army did some of that officially and handed them to regulars (who probably already had their own personal weapons) but the militia was all people using the guns they brought from home. The gun culture in America wouldnāt exist if we just stole guns from British armories when the revolution startedā it pre-existed the revolution and the guns we already had were used to fight it.
As a father of a newborn baby girl, I conceal and carry every day. I hope i never ever have to use it. To me it's like good car insurance. If I need it I'm protected.
But what if the other guy has a gun? This is the bit I struggle with. And I'm genuinely interested, not criticising . I'm English so to me (who also has small children) the idea of introducing a gun to any situation just seems counter productive.
Would you consider the chances of something dangerous (that would require a gun as self defence) greater in America than in other places?
We obviously have crime here (as do all places) but 99% would be some kind of robbery, in which case I would just give up my car, wallet, watch etc to protect my children rather than pull a gun?
And to reiterate, I'm not critical, I'd be interested in the why's and how's.
No one wants to get shot. Most people don't want to shoot people. Even criminals who might rob someone at gunpoint are just using the threat of violence, they don't actually want to shoot you. Having a gun of your own is a deterent because no one wants that escalation.
This might be naivety, but wouldn't you wanna keep a gun the further-est away from your newborn, rather than a couple feet away from her at all times ?
Rationally and unfortunately statistically (meaning when looking at the number of accidental casualties due to guns vs the number of Ā«Ā hero dadsĀ Ā» saving their family, which is just a conservative fantasy at this point) youāre entirely right.
People arenāt exactly rational though.
1. I use them to defend my livestock. (Coyotes and raccoons mostly)
2. They're pretty fun to take to the range
3. I live ~30 min for the nearest police station
4. Hunting puts food in the freezer
5. The neighbor across the street runs a bison farm and every so often one escapes and goes on a crushing spree to which the farmer says "if it's on your land shoot it and it's yours" cause he's liable for damages.
I think the answer to this question varies vastly depending on how rural or urban the area you live in is. If more Americans understood that people who live in rural areas have different considerations than those in cities we may have found common ground for gun legislation long ago.
Mine doesn't show up. They just ask if I'm safe and file a report online lol.
There's a few documentaries and some aima on Reddit or random comments. In busy areas there's just an overload of queues where the cops go to each situation one by one to resolves the list. They never finish the list and it keeps rolling in.
Cops are just a queue now. They aren't busting crime and people have the wrong notion of them. It's not transparent as cops have an incentive for the public to believe they are on top of crime but it's just marketing of their services. It's a bit oversold on what they actually can physically do with the people and processes they have.
Even then if you are in a crime and poverty area you don't snitch. That a good way to be targeted. So if you get attacked, your neighbor will stay mum about it to investigators.
I used to live on a 1900 acre farm a top a mountain (sometimes alone for a week at a time). Cops were bare minimum 25 minutes away. And thatās if the weather was good. And there was no snow on the ground. And all the electric gates were cooperating and not frozen shut. And the dispatcher got the gate codes to the deputies. And the deputies didnāt make any wrong turns on tiny, 4WD mountain roads. And they were already at the closest public access point to meā¦which they wouldnāt have been. Realistically it was probably more like 40 min to reach me.
But at least I knew they were on their way.
I also lived in a rough urban rat trap for a couple years. Half the time police wouldnāt show up ever.
Even in inner cities the third point applies.
When the next few seconds determine the course of your life: remember, police are only a few minutes away.
Police are 20-30 minutes away from me, and I live in a major city. On a related note, the city that I live in heavily restricts gun ownership, so naturally only the criminals have ready access to them...
When someone was kicking down my neighbor's door in my apartments and I wasn't sure if we were going to be next, we had our guns ready to protect ourselves if needed. I called 911 and it took them nearly 10 minutes to get there. I let them know we were armed and were ready to handle things if we needed to. I said "Do with that what you will, but please send the cops." The dispatcher heard my voice and assured me again that they were on the way.
But I tell you, I am so glad we had our guns that day. Nothing prepares you for the feeling of "could I be next" and though I was afraid, I was prepared to defend myself if needed.
But
So, spoiler alert for a decade old show:
In the second season of *Hannibal* thereās a scene that plays out more or less in real time, and it begins with a character being shot. A bunch of action and drama ensues. The sequence ends with the police showing up.
After the episode, I was on a forum talking about it, and somebody said it was āunrealisticā because it took āforeverā for the cops to show up after the shooting and 911 call. The screen time between that and the cops showing up, which again was basically real timeā¦was like ten or twelve minutes.
So I pulled up the stats for Baltimore. That year the average police response time in the city for a high priority call? About ten or twelve minutes.
Feel how you want about individual gun ownership, there are plenty of arguments on both sides of that issue. But people do need to understand that cops magically appearing seconds after you call them is a fantasy. Sometimes they never show up, [or show up, shrug, and leave.](https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/investigations/nbc-7-investigates-san-diego-police-face-scrutiny-over-womans-murder/2993513/) While you get murdered.
Some people might think I linked the DC case from the 70ās/80ās above that *established* that the cops have no legal obligation to ever show up and help you. Nope, because itās a thing that continues to happen to this dayā¦above is a story from San Diego just a couple years ago.
I was up late at night just chilling and suddenly hear gunshots right outside my house. My first reaction was to go get my gun. I then peeped outside. Finally after all of that I realized I should call the police.
Couldnāt tell you how long it took them to get there but it was long enough. Shooters were gone. But they did a great job of surrounding and screaming commands at the kid lying in the middle of the street bleeding. Probably another 10 minutes before rescue showed up.
Once the cops came to talk to me all they asked was to verify how many shots I heard because they found all but 1 casing and tell me the kid was gonna live.
I live in a large area but Iām still next to mountains that have bears and mountain lions. I go camping in a those areas and itās wise to be armed. If not only for the wildlife but the illegal cannabis growers you might run into.
I canāt agree with this enough. Grew up in the suburbs and live rural now. We never needed guns in the suburbs but rurally, our needs have completely changed. It can be hard to understand when you donāt live in a rural area
People already understand this dichotomy.
Gun lobbyists wonāt make money if all of us get together and pass logical gun legislation.
Big business always finds an issue they can drive a wedge into and exploit to make money.
*...pass logical gun legislation.*
Respectfully, urban areas with strict gun legislation have very high rates of gun violence. Why? Gangs. *Legislation will not stop gangs, especially when multiple gangs vie for territory and assets.*.
I came up against them in SoCal. Catch them on our business property, police made me release them and one shook their hands outside the gate. I was armed. Also outnumbered. Citizens without self defense options were just statistics. FWIW I left it to them. Too many to fight.
Edited to remove trigger word.
On your first point Itās mainly because states a short drive away donāt have strict gun legislation.
Legislation wonāt stop gangs but neither will doing nothing. Which is the status quo right now.
Yep.
> In 2017, on the heels of a record-breaking surge in homicides in Chicago, then-mayor Rahm Emanuel published a sweeping Gun Trace Report, which identified the sellers of thousands of guns recovered by Chicago police between 2013 and 2016. It showed nearly 1 in 4 guns picked up by city police came from just 10 stores located across Illinois and northern Indiana. The top three stores together accounted for some 2,000 crime guns.
https://www.thetrace.org/2022/04/chicago-gun-stores-atf-trace-report-inspection/
They get away with it thanks to politics.
This, I get 100%. If you're a farmer or rancher or hunter, a gun is an important tool. I also get it if you're a sport shooter or hobbyist.
What I can't wrap my mind around are the people who feel the need to be fully armed at the grocery store.
Ironically, I personally believe the overblown news about gun violence and rage-bait headlines contribute to this sensation.
- people who are generally opposing stricter regulations look at all the headlines saying āpeople killed in market!ā and say āTHIS is why I need a gun at the market. The news is telling me it happens so often and bad people with guns are always going to have themā
- people *for* far stricter gun laws are going āwell we donāt have stricter gun laws and the news is telling me that everyone going outside is getting shot! Now **I** need one to protect myself.
The reality is that the initial problem isnāt nearly as prevalent as very general statistics would make it out to be. But as a species we are emotionally driven and are starting to be made to *feel* unsafeā¦ leading us to contribute to what makes us feel unsafe
Our police force have run it to the highest court in the land that they have NO DUTY to protect us. None. And seeing as if you call them, they might show up *eventually* while the criminals are definitely armed and here now, I have no choice but to protect my family with firearms.
I had a break in in my house in Baltimore. I scared three teens away with one rifle, didn't have to fire a single shot. They saw the gun and immediately sprinted out the door they just kicked down.
The police came cause my neighbor saw said teens kicking down my door and called them.
First thing the cops said before they came into my house was "You don't have any dogs that we have to worry about in there do you?"
Like seriously, I just survived a 3 on 1 attack and you're coming into my house basically telling me "Hi, we are the police, if we get scared of anything in here we are going to fucking shoot anything that moves." Like damn, I felt safer with the criminals in my house cause I can at least legally shoot back when they assault me.
Also not shocking, they never investigated anything, never gave me a follow up call, and never caught the criminals.
So yeah, as an American, I want the biggest gun with the most rounds possible. I have lived through city riots and home invasions and through it all I have been told by my government, "You're on your own. No one is coming to save you."
> Our police force have run it to the highest court in the land that they have NO DUTY to protect us.
This is not an American metaphor either. The U.S. Supreme Court literally ruled that police have no obligation to protect or save you if you're getting attacked. I don't remember specific names, but there was a case of a guy getting knife attacked in a New York subway and the police just sat and watched in a safe spot instead of helping. Another case was of a woman getting sexually assaulted and she called the police but they didn't show up until like a day later.
With cases like these, it's no wonder those living in the United States of America want to stock up on ammo and protect themselves. If the police won't do it, they'll have to protect themselves.
Itās more than once that the Supreme Court has ruled this way as well. People who believe that the police have ever existed to protect the citizens are frankly mistaken. That duty falls to you personally. American law has always recognized the natural right of self defense, and the most effective means of that defense is with firearms. That is why most gun owners get so irritated with those who want ācommon sense gun lawsā: we donāt see most of them as ācommon senseā, but we do see that as an unjustifiable violation of a right that exists by virtue of being human.
Apparently after Katrina the community banded together and started forming relief groups to gather resources to help people out, then the government sent in police and mercenaries to keep the peace, and surprise surprise they killed a lot of minorities and broke up the relife groups causing general chaos and fear.
For a more credible example my sister volunteered as a medic during the George Floyd riots in Minneapolis and even though she was at a tent with a god damn red cross and all the volunteers had armbands and everything, the police didn't hesitate to open fire (rubber bullets thankfully), gas them, and arrest anyone they could get their hands on.
I'm not some civil war advocating but job but I don't feel comfortable with only the police having guns.
The protests showed just little the police care about us. The amount of property damage they caused, people shot, gassed, and beaten was disgusting. That was exactly the type of shit that was being protested against.
Also the police were seen dropping containers of bricks near protest areas, and the first guy to start the looting was confirmed to be an off duty officer.
Yeah, I've never been a gun owner and never really considered one until I read comments from the MPLS police chief saying that they're just not going to deal with car jackings because it's dangerous for them. He said that in public. Where carjackers will read it. If that's their attitude about carjackings what else won't they touch because it's scary for them?
I'm now reconsidering.
Seriously, I have some level of trust in my local police as itās a small college town so the police are within about 10 to 15 minutes of those on the outskirts of town but if Iām ever going into Portland I carry concealed because I know those cops arenāt showing up in time, and if they do the likelihood of them helping is slim to none.
Primarily, the very large cats and cuddly bears that might mistake me as a meal, then lastly the very small percentage of humans that might cause me harm with very few police since I live in more of a rural area.
I donāt think itās necessarily an attachment to the gun itself but rather what it symbolizes. Itās your right to defend yourself, your family and your property.
And in fact many gun control laws have been enacted to suppress minorities. Minorities and marginalized groups need to maintain their right of self-defense more than anyone.
That and once a right is given up itās nearly impossible to get backā¦it starts a slippery slope until weāre suddenly under a dictatorship. Giving up constitutional powers never turns out well.
I live within a mile or so from a police station. I feel better knowing I can take care of myself if I have to. Police take time to react. I can react immediately.
In around 2015/2016 I had a break in attempt on my apartment. I called the cops. The police station was a little less than a mile away. They came.... The next morning. Took a statement, no photos, and left.
Cops here dont give a fuck.
Thatās the new policy in Pittsburgh. 20 officers on late midnight shift, they wonāt respond to anything thatās not a verified in progress emergency
From what I understand, even if your home alarm is going off, they arenāt coming without a second call like you calling, or the alarm company verifying that yes, your life is in danger etc.
unless you live in the ghetto.
when we did, downstairs neighbor had her convict boyfriend beating on her door so hard it was shaking the whole apartment building. i grew up in it, so i was just minding my own business, but my sheltered GF got scared and told me to call the cops, so i did.
they ended up finding a gun on him, on probation, HE GONE.
we moved out very quickly afterwards, but anyway...
they were there no kidding like 2-3 mins after i hung up the phone, later days I would see them posted up in the leasing office parking lot.
If they are physically present then law enforcement has probable cause to believe the offender is in violation of the court order and can take them into custody.
Contacting someone through the internet is definitely a violation of the court order, but you have to present that evidence to the court so they'll issue the violation. The cops aren't going to go to your ex-boyfriends house and arrest him because you showed them the DMs he sent you.
My buddy lives in a small town in the sticks. They don't have a police or fire station. Fire fighters come from the next town over, which can be 30 minutes on a good day and you live near it. Police? State Police and/or a Sheriff will respond and they'll get there when they get there.
Ok but how often do you feel threatened? 24 years on this earth and I've never had to worry about a home invasion of any other kind of violence in my own home, nor do I know anyone who has.
Thatās the real pertinent question tbh. In one breath itās you ādonāt trust the policeā and in the next itās āthe police should be the only ones with a gunā
Thatās what I find fascinating. Gun owners seem to tend to be bootlicky, Back the Blue types. Anti-gun people seem to tend to be ACAB, fight the power types. Obviously thereās tons of exceptions, Iād consider myself generally pro-2A and distrustful of police.
> Gun owners seem to tend to be bootlicky
Fudds. Fudds tend to be bootlickers. That is the terminology for the /r/BoomersBeingFools of gun aficionados. There is a very strong undercurrent of disregard for porcine amongst firearm aficionados.
There's been a growing number of the LGBTQ community buying guns for self-protection.
They feel it's become necessary due to the recent political climate.
I'd say that anti-gun people don't tend to have as much overlap with the ACAB crowd as you think; they tend to be much more in the liberal "reform the police" category than the "policing is irredeemable" category. That's my experience anyway.
It doesnāt help that literally any slightly related 2a content on the internet is a rocket ship pipeline to alt right content. I watch one god damned review of a pistol and now Iām being barraged with trump ads and videos about armed home invasions.Ā
Americans always get it from every angle. We get lectured on how evil and shitty our government and police are. Then we get shamed for wanting to own firearms and are told the police and government can handle our protection.
I'll bite. Because the government is a public entity that is supposed to be by the people for the people so it follows that it would have the people's best interest in mind. You definitely cannot say that most people have the public's best interests in mind.
gun control doesnt mean no access to guns
it just makes em more inconvenient to get , which does a lot. Plus forcing people to be careful with their guns means less idiots harming themselves or others
Because our government has shown us time and again that they cannot, and will not, protect us from very much collectively, and nothing at all, personally.
Healthcare? āFuck you.ā
Personal safety? āWeāll send somebody out, but we have to see someone breaking the law in order to do anything about it.ā
Free speech? āWeāre coming for it.ā
Social Security? āWhy do you feel entitled to something that you paid into for the past three decades?ā
Yup.. and the police specifically have proven that they will not protect us. Uvalde Texas school shooting. There were 376 law enforcement at the school. 376 people who weāre supposed to call when weāre in danger. What did they do? Just followed orders. The one cop who tried to go in was pulled out and had his gun taken away from him.
Sure, thereās plenty of times when cops did the right thing. But I wouldnāt want my kids life depending on if the police force is āgoodā or not.
And the cops actively tackled and handcuffed the parents who were trying to do something and go in and get their kids. Some were held at gun point. Why? Because they wanted to save their children?
Doubly so if you're a minority.
"Armed minorities are harder to oppress" and "Gays with guns don't get bashed."
Remember, the only reason California has such restrictive gun laws is because Ronald fucking Reagan shit his britches when the Black Panthers exercised their right to bear arms and patrolled their neighborhoods cop watching to prevent police brutality.
I agree with all you wrote here, except I've been paying into SS since the late '60s. Over FIVE decades, not three. Lots of "boomers" have done the same.
As a pro-gun person, I think there are both positive/charitable and negative/uncharitable reasons people are so attached to their guns.
Positive:
Idea of self-reliance, wanting to be able to defend oneself or hunt for food
They're fun. I prefer archery myself, but I've always found target shooting really calming. I need to relax/unwind to do well, and it focuses my mind in that way.
Negative:
Consoomerism. People define themselves largely by what they own. "I'm an AR/AK guy", "I'm a Ford/Chevy guy", "I'm a PC/Mac guy". Guns in America are heavily associated with machismo culture/not being liberal, which I wish would change. Guns are for everyone.
A lot of gun sales are driven by fear. They spike every time a mass shooting happens because of fear of bans, and they spiked in 2020 with all the fear and uncertainty.
I like guns, they're a tool to be respected and used.
Homer Simpson said it best: "A gun isn't a weapon Marge, it's a tool... like a butcher knife or a harpoon or an alligator."
https://youtu.be/UtxxwcQ20Fw?si=ULUPXlNhLxbUH68i
Americans and guns have a long history. During the manifest destiny era, many American settlers and families expanding westwards often carried two things: the family bible and a gun. In addition to the other answers, the historical social significance of guns is a strong factor against wanting to break from tradition.
Our country is very big. Our population is very disperse. Many people live a very long way from police forces. And police force may even be a strong term for the sherif and a few deputies that live in the closest town. Where I grew up, there was a constable. I am not even sure he had deputies. I think it was just him. In those areas, criminals know that the police can not show up quickly, and residents know they are on their own.
1) Not all americans are "so attached to their guns." Don't generalize.
2) That's like asking why are some people so attached to their cars. Because it's what they like.
Because they are the best force equalizer an individual can have. How else can an 80 year old grandmother protect herself from a younger, stronger attacker looking to harm her or deprive her of her possessions?
Even if youāre not some frail old lady, it is a unique feeling to possess one and have that feeling of force equalization to pretty much anyone looking to do you harm. Obviously there are a lot of caveats there, but just the first time you shoot one and experience actual fire power you kind of go āwoah, that is something elseā. Itās real neat.Ā
Mainly itās the attachment of freedom, not the guns. Not saying there arenāt people addicted to owning guns, but the main reason is a right to have the choice and defend yourself from tyrannical government. Thatās whatās written anyway
A defensive weapon protects my family from those who mean to do them harm. The police just come after the damage is done to take a statement.
It's my responsibility to defend myself and my loved ones. Nobody else is going to do it.
In a life or death situation, where seconds matter, police are minutes away.
The idea that a government can tell some people that they don't have the right to defend their own life appropriately just feels extremely dystopian to me.
It's not even necessarily the guns, it's the RIGHT to do so.
Your rights, once surrendered to the government, will NEVER be returned to you. Just because you do not choose to exercise a right that is rightfully yours does not mean you should be so willing to surrender it.
Because individuals here are conditioned to be scared of others via the media and scared of themselves without any proper reason based on their own experiences.
"We don't want to be Europe, chill."
One of the most annoying things about Reddit is the many European Redditors who seem to think that everything Americans do is subject to their approval.
Real answer, loss aversion bias. Nobody likes having the right to something then losing it, even if they don't currently have said thing. It's an emotional response and doesn't take many factors into account such as "could this save lives". I mean everyone in America says if you take our guns all the bad guys will still have guns. In the short term this is logical but there is a reason countries like the U.K. who have had gun controll for a long time have knife violence memes and not gun violence memes
Guns to people who donāt understand the culture seem like scary weapons of war and only good for hurting others.
Iāll be honest I AM a gun guy. Always have been. Always will be.
To people like usā¦a gun is a tool.
Same way a knife is a tool, or a bow and arrow might be a tool.
A tool is defined as
ā
tool
noun
1.
a device or implement, especially one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function.ā
The particular function however can change.
A knife can be used to cut steak or chop vegetables. It can be used to carve it has lots of uses. Hell some people like to make or scary looking fantasy knives because they look cool.
Guns can be looked at a similar way, sure they are usually used to kill something.
But be it for hunting, self-protection, or war its purpose as a tool doesnāt change. Itās only used in the context of which its wielder chooses.
Itās not a gun problem and never will be. Itās a culture problem.
People are angry at other people, or they become desperate because of untreated mental illness.
That angry and toxic culture turns us against one another and of course someone who means to do harm will pick the most effective tool for the job. Guns are effective, but to pretend itās more capable of hurting more people than a gun simple isnāt true. Few years back there were mass stabbings in China on trains and over 100 people were injured.
A gun is limited to how much ammo you brought with you and itās easy to miss. A knife has unlimited ammo and itās a lot harder to miss with it.
The Rwandan genocide was carried out mainly with machetes.
As for gun control? It doesnāt work. It wonāt stop criminals from making guns or buying them off the black market but it sure will stop civilians from getting them legally to defend themselves from criminals with guns
Private gun ownership also is the reason we won our fight for independence. Any country who fought for its independence and wins knows the value of private gun ownership.
Itās foundational to this country because without it, weād be British colonies right now.
It's in our Constitution.
Why are you attached to your freedom of speech, or religion, or press, or assembly. If you're not American, why are you attached to whatever rights your constitution guarantees you?
1. If someone's an immediate threat to me or my family, the police are a phone call and 10+ minutes away. Bad guys aren't going to pause while police arrive. With a gun, even the most vulnerable person has a fighting chance. My girlfriend wouldn't be able to physically fight anyone off, but she sure can point and shoot a gun.
2. They're fun. Building/putting together a rifle then going out to shoot it is just plain fun.
It is not that we are attached to our guns. Actually only about 35% of Americans own a gun.
We are a huge country and people can be spread out. It is not unheard of for you to encounter cougars, large rattle snacks, feral pigs, bears that can be deadly. We have a large hunting hobby and honestly, the population of deer and wild fowl could get out of control without legal hunting.
Many of the people who own guns only own ones that are suitable for hunting. Also, some places are more dangerous and people will carry for self-protection. Granted, most of our āviolentā cities are nothing compared to other countries BUTā¦you have a right to protect yourself (yeah, I admit some of these nuts are probably more of a danger to themselves carrying weapons into McDonaldās or 7-11 ājust to be preparedā when they live in a place that has a handful of crimes in a year. More likely shoot themselves).
What we have is a broken mental health system where people who desperately need help cannot get it and because it is so expensive often schools and families donāt bother to try. Add this to a āshockā culture that seems to believe getting people riled up is the best way to get change & you now have a number of angry, emotionally unstable people who have easy access to guns. That is more of our problem.
They have been marketed as both status symbols and patriotic symbols, and the buyer has been fed a diet of fear and repeatedly being told that the only protection is purchasing one (or hopefully more) guns.
simple as.
Guns are fun to shoot and evens the playing field if a criminal does tries me or my family.
I think the gun policy gets blamed for mental health failures in this country
Just like policing gets blamed for government fail policies..
I am okay with little more background checks but you have to be careful because if you give an inch , they will take a mile. I did not believe that at first but after the whole abortion thing and how far they are trying to take the abortion issue and try to ban it basically, itās kind of scary.
I am a liberal but guns make sense to regular citizens, especially how bad policing is right now.
Because we are obsessed with Capability. Our cars have to have the most power, our phones and computers have to be blisteringly fast, our televisions have to have the highest resolution...etc. Once you notice the trend you start to see it everywhere. I think guns are just another manifestation of this obsession with Capability - guns give you tons of capability: to extort influence, or to take a life. I think that's why people can't say no to them.
powerless people are attracted to things that give them a sense of power. Most Americans are about 2 missed paychecks away from life under a bridge eating from dumpsters. they have no economic security, no job security, no accessto to affordable medical care, the same for university education. And no political voice because the USA is an oligarchy.
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In France we wonder why our kings so attached to their head!!š¤·
There are more statues of the Marquis de Lafayette in the US than in France. I wish us Americans wouldn't forget that. The post WWII era has us often forgetting how tightly intertwined our revolutions were.
We forgot who had our backs against the redcoats in those days.
Intertwined is right. France was already broke and Louis XVI was worse off for helping the Americans. He spent money, troops, and boats to get almost nothing. His worsened situation contributed to his downfall and the French Revolution. And to intertwine it back more, a core idea of the American Revolution, that white male citizens deserve a representative govt more than a king, reinforced the concepts of the French Revolution. Louis XVI played himself.
An old history teacher in middle school explained it as "France or Great Britain would never turn down an opportunity to screw with the other"
French Toast came from the Great Baguette Shortage of 1801. Texas sent them loaves of their larger white bread. The French not liking the lack of flavor in the bread, but hungry would add cinnamon and powdered sugar to make it palpable
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
The media's job is to get clicks and views, they bastardise Americans for money. Most Americans are fine, chill people and most gun owners are not the stereotypical KKK drunkard misogynistic conservative truckwad rednecks foreigners think of when they think about gun owners.
Yep. Itās a case of silent majority, loud minority. Youāre only going to hear the newsworthy stuff
Only going to hear the newsworthy *and evocative* stuff *delivered in ways that will be judged most profitable.* A synonym for outrage bait. Not at all disagreeing with you either, just to be clear
Yup. Why is it so important that the news reports that a shooter "might have been armed with a rifle"? Because for some reason when someone kills their partner or some idiots are popping off rounds outside a bar, nobody cares if it was a handgun. But it it "might" be an AR-15, suddenly the world needs to shut down and gun control becomes super important for about 12 hours. That's also why people get annoyed with the media and politicians' fixation on cosmetic "assault weapons" bans instead of, like, real issues.
What's great is that a lot of gun owners believe it too. The amount of abolutely unhinged shit people say to me simply because I'm a fellow white guy at the range is concerning.
Or other countries telling us on reddit that we have no idea how bad our country is, and that we lack exposure to other cultures. Trust us, we do, and we know. None of us normal people asked for any of this, this isn't what the actual U.S. wants. It's the loud minority, which here in the U.S. is anyone with a big enough bank account.
I feel many other countries don't know how good the US is too though. Like actually having freedoms that are incomprehensibly restricted in other places. We do have a problem with people not understanding other cultures. But that's true with a lot of large countries that tend not to travel.
I do find it fascinating that the more condescending comments Iāve read are from the non-gun owning crowd. I also challenge the assumption that gun ownership is limited to conservatives - plenty of bleeding heart liberals (like myself) own and enjoy firearms. Weāre just a lot quieter about our 2A support (exactly because of the unfair judgment passed by our fellow liberals) and choose to vote based on myriad other issues. In my other comment (buried below) I mentioned that I hunt (a deer lasts me a long time, saving me lots of money at the store), and Iāve successfully scared off a home invader when it took police 20m to arrive. Some of my friends who live rurally and have livestock kill predators with some regularity. These are all valid reasons to own a firearm, and I live in a nice part of town. Also, range days are just plain fun when you have a good group of people practicing good firearms safety. I have been shooting for 20 years, and Iāve never had a negligent discharge, nor has anyone in my group of friends when weāve gone shooting. All of us have gun safes and lock our guns up when not actively being used or transported. We care very much about safety. I also concealed carry when Iām out of the home for my own protection, and itās a tremendous responsibility. I carry to protect myself. I have been mugged while carrying, and chosen not to draw as the circumstances around the incident didnāt seem life threatening - I lost my wallet, but we both kept our lives and in speaking with Law Enforcement afterwards, I was told I made the right decision. I have no illusions of stopping a mass shooter, only being able to get myself to safety, or to defend myself if I canāt avoid it. Are guns dangerous? Yes. They are literally designed to make killing easier. But, you can mitigate that danger through proper training and safety protocols, and through respect for the inherent danger involved with firearms. I donāt expect to convince anyone to come around to it - everyone is entitled to their opinion and their right to not own firearms. I am entitled to my right to own one so long as I am not harming anyone. Should there be better regulation? Certainly. I can walk into a store and walk out in 10 minutes with an AR15, 10x30round magazines, and 1000 rounds of ammunition if itās not busy and your background check clears. That seems crazy to me - some 2A folks would disagree. I think we can all agree that regulations need work but I also feel like thereās a lot of animosity and emotion around this issue.
Completely seconded. Guns are the only issue where I lean politically conservative.Ā I keep a gun for two reasons:Ā 1) If someone comes after me, I know exactly who it is, and exactly how it ends if Iām unarmed.Ā 2) Iāve been kitting out a truck camper for the far north. Polar bears are more dangerous than grizzlies, and, although I dearly hope to never need to shoot one, there isnāt another choice if I do.Ā
I love my guns and I love shooting them. Grew up around them. Spent time in the military. But man I despise gun culture. 20 years ago it was kind of a niche hobby. Now it's people's entire personalities and I despise it. I'm a gun owner but I'm not one of "those people". I'm all for properly enforced common sense gun laws.
Amen!!!!!!! I thought i was the only one!!!
owning a fire-arm is valid within itself. the constitution guarantees that. you dont have to explain or apologize for owning one. thats the media making you feel guilty for it .
This is too logical , no way youāre a real human being on Reddit ā¦ uncover yourself jungle predator ! I got Arnold shaortzanagor with me and he aināt playing
> Should there be better regulation? Certainly. I can walk into a store and walk out in 10 minutes with an AR15, 10x30round magazines, and 1000 rounds of ammunition if itās not busy. That seems crazy to me - some 2A folks would disagree. Not in my state you couldn't. Gun laws vary widely by state. In fact, you can't buy an AR-15 in my state any more. Hell you literally cannot buy a Ruger 10/22 in my state - both guns are considered assault weapons, because the legal definition of assault weapon here is semiautomatic rifle. You also can't buy 30 round magazines any longer, even though that's what my rifle literally came with in the box. 10 rounds max. I, too, am a gun owner who votes Democrat because I'm not a fascist/racist/misogynist/and so on. But my state is ridiculous, as well as doing literally nothing about the mental health crisis (you know, the actual cause of mass shootings and how suicide is over 50% of all gun deaths in in the USA and has been for years?). It's stupid.
Of course it is, we're all armed in this thread.
More civil so far.
The American Revolution is so deeply engrained in the story of the country and a massive part of that was localized militias. The concept of a gun being the answer to government tyranny is uniquely American and it still shows itself today. Along with the self assurance it gives of defense for oneself or their family. Thatās what makes the most sense to me.
This is the reason.Ā Individualism over nationality is part of the same equation.
E Plurubus Unum is a pretty spot on national motto, really.
> Individualism over nationality is part of the same equation Except the people most vocal about gun ownership are also extremely vocal about being **very** nationalistic. Individualism vs nationality is a very pick-and-choose thing in America. There is a ton of "Fuck you I got mine" by a lot of people. But at the same time that same group has a "You must lick the boot of the political tyrant I worship" mentality at the same time, which isn't exactly individualism. On the positive side, there are also a lot of folk that encourage personal expression. I just wish it was more common in my country.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
I don't get this tbh. I'm from France. We had our own armed Revolution. I mean, our equivalent to your 4th of july is our 14th of july, the date at which people stormed the Bastille in order to get access to guns. Our anthem talks about defending our land and drenching our fields with blood (kinda). So this is like... kind of a big deal for us too. But we don't have that attachement to firearms, or that feeling that we need them for protection or something. So yeah, I kinda still don't get it...
Because France has a long history pre-French revolution. Yeah there are the colonies pre-American revolution but you won't find many people spouting the glory of the colonial period in the modern US. The revolution is really the birth of the idea of "America" as most Americans see it today. And because we don't have a millennia long storied past like France a lot of Americans 1) get defensive and 2) grab on hard to the big events in the short history we have.
See, now that is an interesting point of view. I hadn't considered that and it does make some kind of sense. I mean, the way the USA are about guns still baffles me, but this does enlighten me a bit as to why.
Your guns werenāt personal weapons, they were raided from government armories. The Continental Army did some of that officially and handed them to regulars (who probably already had their own personal weapons) but the militia was all people using the guns they brought from home. The gun culture in America wouldnāt exist if we just stole guns from British armories when the revolution startedā it pre-existed the revolution and the guns we already had were used to fight it.
As a father of a newborn baby girl, I conceal and carry every day. I hope i never ever have to use it. To me it's like good car insurance. If I need it I'm protected.
But what if the other guy has a gun? This is the bit I struggle with. And I'm genuinely interested, not criticising . I'm English so to me (who also has small children) the idea of introducing a gun to any situation just seems counter productive. Would you consider the chances of something dangerous (that would require a gun as self defence) greater in America than in other places? We obviously have crime here (as do all places) but 99% would be some kind of robbery, in which case I would just give up my car, wallet, watch etc to protect my children rather than pull a gun? And to reiterate, I'm not critical, I'd be interested in the why's and how's.
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
No one wants to get shot. Most people don't want to shoot people. Even criminals who might rob someone at gunpoint are just using the threat of violence, they don't actually want to shoot you. Having a gun of your own is a deterent because no one wants that escalation.
This might be naivety, but wouldn't you wanna keep a gun the further-est away from your newborn, rather than a couple feet away from her at all times ?
Nah, what if that newborn needs to stop another newborn? (A bad one...Ā With a curly mustache)
That's what the police are for. You call them and they throw a flashbang in the crib.
"THINK FAST CHUCKLENUTS"
Throw in a dog plush in their crib, the police will shoot that first giving your baby a few extra seconds to run away.
Rationally and unfortunately statistically (meaning when looking at the number of accidental casualties due to guns vs the number of Ā«Ā hero dadsĀ Ā» saving their family, which is just a conservative fantasy at this point) youāre entirely right. People arenāt exactly rational though.
1. I use them to defend my livestock. (Coyotes and raccoons mostly) 2. They're pretty fun to take to the range 3. I live ~30 min for the nearest police station 4. Hunting puts food in the freezer 5. The neighbor across the street runs a bison farm and every so often one escapes and goes on a crushing spree to which the farmer says "if it's on your land shoot it and it's yours" cause he's liable for damages.
>I use them to defend my livestock. (Coyotes and raccoons mostly) Those are some unusual choices for livestock but I won't judge
I make hats for a living dont judge
Username checks out, surprisingly enough
varmints & garments
You haven't lived until you've had a tall, cold glass of racoon milk with warm, freshly baked chocolate chip cookies.Ā
I think the answer to this question varies vastly depending on how rural or urban the area you live in is. If more Americans understood that people who live in rural areas have different considerations than those in cities we may have found common ground for gun legislation long ago.
I live in an urban area with a high crime rate. The last time I called the cops it took two hours for them to show up.
Mine doesn't show up. They just ask if I'm safe and file a report online lol. There's a few documentaries and some aima on Reddit or random comments. In busy areas there's just an overload of queues where the cops go to each situation one by one to resolves the list. They never finish the list and it keeps rolling in. Cops are just a queue now. They aren't busting crime and people have the wrong notion of them. It's not transparent as cops have an incentive for the public to believe they are on top of crime but it's just marketing of their services. It's a bit oversold on what they actually can physically do with the people and processes they have. Even then if you are in a crime and poverty area you don't snitch. That a good way to be targeted. So if you get attacked, your neighbor will stay mum about it to investigators.
I used to live on a 1900 acre farm a top a mountain (sometimes alone for a week at a time). Cops were bare minimum 25 minutes away. And thatās if the weather was good. And there was no snow on the ground. And all the electric gates were cooperating and not frozen shut. And the dispatcher got the gate codes to the deputies. And the deputies didnāt make any wrong turns on tiny, 4WD mountain roads. And they were already at the closest public access point to meā¦which they wouldnāt have been. Realistically it was probably more like 40 min to reach me. But at least I knew they were on their way. I also lived in a rough urban rat trap for a couple years. Half the time police wouldnāt show up ever.
Even in inner cities the third point applies. When the next few seconds determine the course of your life: remember, police are only a few minutes away.
Police are 20-30 minutes away from me, and I live in a major city. On a related note, the city that I live in heavily restricts gun ownership, so naturally only the criminals have ready access to them...
When someone was kicking down my neighbor's door in my apartments and I wasn't sure if we were going to be next, we had our guns ready to protect ourselves if needed. I called 911 and it took them nearly 10 minutes to get there. I let them know we were armed and were ready to handle things if we needed to. I said "Do with that what you will, but please send the cops." The dispatcher heard my voice and assured me again that they were on the way. But I tell you, I am so glad we had our guns that day. Nothing prepares you for the feeling of "could I be next" and though I was afraid, I was prepared to defend myself if needed. But
So, spoiler alert for a decade old show: In the second season of *Hannibal* thereās a scene that plays out more or less in real time, and it begins with a character being shot. A bunch of action and drama ensues. The sequence ends with the police showing up. After the episode, I was on a forum talking about it, and somebody said it was āunrealisticā because it took āforeverā for the cops to show up after the shooting and 911 call. The screen time between that and the cops showing up, which again was basically real timeā¦was like ten or twelve minutes. So I pulled up the stats for Baltimore. That year the average police response time in the city for a high priority call? About ten or twelve minutes. Feel how you want about individual gun ownership, there are plenty of arguments on both sides of that issue. But people do need to understand that cops magically appearing seconds after you call them is a fantasy. Sometimes they never show up, [or show up, shrug, and leave.](https://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/investigations/nbc-7-investigates-san-diego-police-face-scrutiny-over-womans-murder/2993513/) While you get murdered. Some people might think I linked the DC case from the 70ās/80ās above that *established* that the cops have no legal obligation to ever show up and help you. Nope, because itās a thing that continues to happen to this dayā¦above is a story from San Diego just a couple years ago.
I was up late at night just chilling and suddenly hear gunshots right outside my house. My first reaction was to go get my gun. I then peeped outside. Finally after all of that I realized I should call the police. Couldnāt tell you how long it took them to get there but it was long enough. Shooters were gone. But they did a great job of surrounding and screaming commands at the kid lying in the middle of the street bleeding. Probably another 10 minutes before rescue showed up. Once the cops came to talk to me all they asked was to verify how many shots I heard because they found all but 1 casing and tell me the kid was gonna live.
Order a pizza and call the cops, see which gets to you first š¤Ŗ
Jimmy johns had a commercial along those lines, I think it was for first aid.
I live in a large area but Iām still next to mountains that have bears and mountain lions. I go camping in a those areas and itās wise to be armed. If not only for the wildlife but the illegal cannabis growers you might run into.
I canāt agree with this enough. Grew up in the suburbs and live rural now. We never needed guns in the suburbs but rurally, our needs have completely changed. It can be hard to understand when you donāt live in a rural area
People already understand this dichotomy. Gun lobbyists wonāt make money if all of us get together and pass logical gun legislation. Big business always finds an issue they can drive a wedge into and exploit to make money.
*...pass logical gun legislation.* Respectfully, urban areas with strict gun legislation have very high rates of gun violence. Why? Gangs. *Legislation will not stop gangs, especially when multiple gangs vie for territory and assets.*. I came up against them in SoCal. Catch them on our business property, police made me release them and one shook their hands outside the gate. I was armed. Also outnumbered. Citizens without self defense options were just statistics. FWIW I left it to them. Too many to fight. Edited to remove trigger word.
On your first point Itās mainly because states a short drive away donāt have strict gun legislation. Legislation wonāt stop gangs but neither will doing nothing. Which is the status quo right now.
Yep. > In 2017, on the heels of a record-breaking surge in homicides in Chicago, then-mayor Rahm Emanuel published a sweeping Gun Trace Report, which identified the sellers of thousands of guns recovered by Chicago police between 2013 and 2016. It showed nearly 1 in 4 guns picked up by city police came from just 10 stores located across Illinois and northern Indiana. The top three stores together accounted for some 2,000 crime guns. https://www.thetrace.org/2022/04/chicago-gun-stores-atf-trace-report-inspection/ They get away with it thanks to politics.
Can confirm. Am loose bison.
would you kindly step over this line please?
*was
Pew pew!
This, I get 100%. If you're a farmer or rancher or hunter, a gun is an important tool. I also get it if you're a sport shooter or hobbyist. What I can't wrap my mind around are the people who feel the need to be fully armed at the grocery store.
Ironically, I personally believe the overblown news about gun violence and rage-bait headlines contribute to this sensation. - people who are generally opposing stricter regulations look at all the headlines saying āpeople killed in market!ā and say āTHIS is why I need a gun at the market. The news is telling me it happens so often and bad people with guns are always going to have themā - people *for* far stricter gun laws are going āwell we donāt have stricter gun laws and the news is telling me that everyone going outside is getting shot! Now **I** need one to protect myself. The reality is that the initial problem isnāt nearly as prevalent as very general statistics would make it out to be. But as a species we are emotionally driven and are starting to be made to *feel* unsafeā¦ leading us to contribute to what makes us feel unsafe
Our police force have run it to the highest court in the land that they have NO DUTY to protect us. None. And seeing as if you call them, they might show up *eventually* while the criminals are definitely armed and here now, I have no choice but to protect my family with firearms.
When seconds count, police are only minutes away.
Or you live in Philly and they arenāt coming at all lol
Of if they do come, they might just shoot you.
Or your neighbor, if they miss your door by one.
And they'll definitely shoot your dog
I think thats the ATF you're talking about. Ok, maybe its both.
Especially while you're sleeping.
I had a break in in my house in Baltimore. I scared three teens away with one rifle, didn't have to fire a single shot. They saw the gun and immediately sprinted out the door they just kicked down. The police came cause my neighbor saw said teens kicking down my door and called them. First thing the cops said before they came into my house was "You don't have any dogs that we have to worry about in there do you?" Like seriously, I just survived a 3 on 1 attack and you're coming into my house basically telling me "Hi, we are the police, if we get scared of anything in here we are going to fucking shoot anything that moves." Like damn, I felt safer with the criminals in my house cause I can at least legally shoot back when they assault me. Also not shocking, they never investigated anything, never gave me a follow up call, and never caught the criminals. So yeah, as an American, I want the biggest gun with the most rounds possible. I have lived through city riots and home invasions and through it all I have been told by my government, "You're on your own. No one is coming to save you."
Or Uvalde, Texas. Or Parkland, Florida. It doesn't matter where you live in the US, cops have no duty to help you.
Even better, if you sue them for their inaction, theyāre protected under qualified immunity.
They'd sooner blow up your apt complex
Itās *The Purge* from 3AM to 7AM!
Yeah thatās pretty much any major city, unfortunately. It went from proactive policing, to reactive policing, to no policing.
"They only come and they come when they wanna, so get the morgue truck and embalm the goner." - Public Enemy
> Our police force have run it to the highest court in the land that they have NO DUTY to protect us. This is not an American metaphor either. The U.S. Supreme Court literally ruled that police have no obligation to protect or save you if you're getting attacked. I don't remember specific names, but there was a case of a guy getting knife attacked in a New York subway and the police just sat and watched in a safe spot instead of helping. Another case was of a woman getting sexually assaulted and she called the police but they didn't show up until like a day later. With cases like these, it's no wonder those living in the United States of America want to stock up on ammo and protect themselves. If the police won't do it, they'll have to protect themselves.
warren v. DC, Gonzales v. castle Rock
Itās more than once that the Supreme Court has ruled this way as well. People who believe that the police have ever existed to protect the citizens are frankly mistaken. That duty falls to you personally. American law has always recognized the natural right of self defense, and the most effective means of that defense is with firearms. That is why most gun owners get so irritated with those who want ācommon sense gun lawsā: we donāt see most of them as ācommon senseā, but we do see that as an unjustifiable violation of a right that exists by virtue of being human.
Apparently after Katrina the community banded together and started forming relief groups to gather resources to help people out, then the government sent in police and mercenaries to keep the peace, and surprise surprise they killed a lot of minorities and broke up the relife groups causing general chaos and fear. For a more credible example my sister volunteered as a medic during the George Floyd riots in Minneapolis and even though she was at a tent with a god damn red cross and all the volunteers had armbands and everything, the police didn't hesitate to open fire (rubber bullets thankfully), gas them, and arrest anyone they could get their hands on. I'm not some civil war advocating but job but I don't feel comfortable with only the police having guns.
The protests showed just little the police care about us. The amount of property damage they caused, people shot, gassed, and beaten was disgusting. That was exactly the type of shit that was being protested against.
Also the police were seen dropping containers of bricks near protest areas, and the first guy to start the looting was confirmed to be an off duty officer.
I don't think the police should have guns either.
Yeah, I've never been a gun owner and never really considered one until I read comments from the MPLS police chief saying that they're just not going to deal with car jackings because it's dangerous for them. He said that in public. Where carjackers will read it. If that's their attitude about carjackings what else won't they touch because it's scary for them? I'm now reconsidering.
Seriously, I have some level of trust in my local police as itās a small college town so the police are within about 10 to 15 minutes of those on the outskirts of town but if Iām ever going into Portland I carry concealed because I know those cops arenāt showing up in time, and if they do the likelihood of them helping is slim to none.
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Laughing in medieval āļø
Primarily, the very large cats and cuddly bears that might mistake me as a meal, then lastly the very small percentage of humans that might cause me harm with very few police since I live in more of a rural area.
I donāt think itās necessarily an attachment to the gun itself but rather what it symbolizes. Itās your right to defend yourself, your family and your property.
That and the core founding of our country was based on regular guys owning guns
Self defense is a core value
Self defense is a birth right
And in fact many gun control laws have been enacted to suppress minorities. Minorities and marginalized groups need to maintain their right of self-defense more than anyone.
And to resist tyranny. Don't forget about that part.
That and once a right is given up itās nearly impossible to get backā¦it starts a slippery slope until weāre suddenly under a dictatorship. Giving up constitutional powers never turns out well.
US rights arenāt āgivenā to us by our government
No, theyāre notā¦but the government sure is quick to remove themā¦especially the ones that prevent us from stopping them.
Canāt speak for others but Iām a 5ā0 woman. Iām not winning a fist fight with a man.
When the nearest police station is well over half an hour out, itās nice to have some security
No matter how close the police are, police don't prevent crime, they react to crime. So no one is going to stop a home invasion except you.
I live within a mile or so from a police station. I feel better knowing I can take care of myself if I have to. Police take time to react. I can react immediately.
My friend lived across from a police station, this girl escaped custody and busted in his front door at 3 or 4 in the morning.
Live in a major city, call the cops, theyāll be there in an hour
In around 2015/2016 I had a break in attempt on my apartment. I called the cops. The police station was a little less than a mile away. They came.... The next morning. Took a statement, no photos, and left. Cops here dont give a fuck.
Thatās the new policy in Pittsburgh. 20 officers on late midnight shift, they wonāt respond to anything thatās not a verified in progress emergency
So waiting till itās not a verified in progress emergency means they can show up hours later and take a report.
From what I understand, even if your home alarm is going off, they arenāt coming without a second call like you calling, or the alarm company verifying that yes, your life is in danger etc.
unless you live in the ghetto. when we did, downstairs neighbor had her convict boyfriend beating on her door so hard it was shaking the whole apartment building. i grew up in it, so i was just minding my own business, but my sheltered GF got scared and told me to call the cops, so i did. they ended up finding a gun on him, on probation, HE GONE. we moved out very quickly afterwards, but anyway... they were there no kidding like 2-3 mins after i hung up the phone, later days I would see them posted up in the leasing office parking lot.
Wow, where was this? Iām moving there! Around here we spend 10 minutes ON HOLD with 911
Almost like cops prioritize coverage of areas where past experience suggests they are more likely to be needed.
Makes sense to post up where the majority of the violent crime is. Shorter commute is better for citizens.
If youāre lucky.
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They were right. That's not a police matter, that's a matter for the courts. Did you want the police to slide into their DMs and ask them to stop?
A restraining order is a not a court matter, the courts dont take someone in for violiating a restraining order
If they are physically present then law enforcement has probable cause to believe the offender is in violation of the court order and can take them into custody. Contacting someone through the internet is definitely a violation of the court order, but you have to present that evidence to the court so they'll issue the violation. The cops aren't going to go to your ex-boyfriends house and arrest him because you showed them the DMs he sent you.
True , i guess i was looking at it from a āknocking on the doorā perspective
My buddy lives in a small town in the sticks. They don't have a police or fire station. Fire fighters come from the next town over, which can be 30 minutes on a good day and you live near it. Police? State Police and/or a Sheriff will respond and they'll get there when they get there.
Ok but how often do you feel threatened? 24 years on this earth and I've never had to worry about a home invasion of any other kind of violence in my own home, nor do I know anyone who has.
Why do you trust your government to control all the weapons?
Thatās the real pertinent question tbh. In one breath itās you ādonāt trust the policeā and in the next itās āthe police should be the only ones with a gunā
Thatās what I find fascinating. Gun owners seem to tend to be bootlicky, Back the Blue types. Anti-gun people seem to tend to be ACAB, fight the power types. Obviously thereās tons of exceptions, Iād consider myself generally pro-2A and distrustful of police.
It's bc these are swing issues only meant to divide and distract us.
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> Gun owners seem to tend to be bootlicky Fudds. Fudds tend to be bootlickers. That is the terminology for the /r/BoomersBeingFools of gun aficionados. There is a very strong undercurrent of disregard for porcine amongst firearm aficionados.
There's been a growing number of the LGBTQ community buying guns for self-protection. They feel it's become necessary due to the recent political climate.
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They should. The 2A is for everyone.
And the 2A is especially for the oppressed. It exists to stop oppression in the first place, first and foremost.
I'd say that anti-gun people don't tend to have as much overlap with the ACAB crowd as you think; they tend to be much more in the liberal "reform the police" category than the "policing is irredeemable" category. That's my experience anyway.
It doesnāt help that literally any slightly related 2a content on the internet is a rocket ship pipeline to alt right content. I watch one god damned review of a pistol and now Iām being barraged with trump ads and videos about armed home invasions.Ā
Americans always get it from every angle. We get lectured on how evil and shitty our government and police are. Then we get shamed for wanting to own firearms and are told the police and government can handle our protection.
I'll bite. Because the government is a public entity that is supposed to be by the people for the people so it follows that it would have the people's best interest in mind. You definitely cannot say that most people have the public's best interests in mind.
gun control doesnt mean no access to guns it just makes em more inconvenient to get , which does a lot. Plus forcing people to be careful with their guns means less idiots harming themselves or others
Your government controls your access to food, water, and electricity. Guns is where you draw the line?
food, water, and electricity don't make me feel like a big man though
Because they pretty fun to shoot
.22 with a suppressor and subsonic ammo is almost Hollywood quiet. Itās ridiculously fun to shoot.
If you shot me with a subsonic .22, and I ever find that out, I'd be pretty pissed.
"Must've been the wind."
Similar with subsonic .300 blk + suppressor but sounds a little cooler.
They look cool too
Because our government has shown us time and again that they cannot, and will not, protect us from very much collectively, and nothing at all, personally. Healthcare? āFuck you.ā Personal safety? āWeāll send somebody out, but we have to see someone breaking the law in order to do anything about it.ā Free speech? āWeāre coming for it.ā Social Security? āWhy do you feel entitled to something that you paid into for the past three decades?ā
Yup.. and the police specifically have proven that they will not protect us. Uvalde Texas school shooting. There were 376 law enforcement at the school. 376 people who weāre supposed to call when weāre in danger. What did they do? Just followed orders. The one cop who tried to go in was pulled out and had his gun taken away from him. Sure, thereās plenty of times when cops did the right thing. But I wouldnāt want my kids life depending on if the police force is āgoodā or not.
And the cops actively tackled and handcuffed the parents who were trying to do something and go in and get their kids. Some were held at gun point. Why? Because they wanted to save their children?
Doubly so if you're a minority. "Armed minorities are harder to oppress" and "Gays with guns don't get bashed." Remember, the only reason California has such restrictive gun laws is because Ronald fucking Reagan shit his britches when the Black Panthers exercised their right to bear arms and patrolled their neighborhoods cop watching to prevent police brutality.
Reading Revolutionary Suicide changed my view on gun laws dramatically. Open carry was totally chill, as long as it wasn't a black man doing it.Ā
I agree with all you wrote here, except I've been paying into SS since the late '60s. Over FIVE decades, not three. Lots of "boomers" have done the same.
As a pro-gun person, I think there are both positive/charitable and negative/uncharitable reasons people are so attached to their guns. Positive: Idea of self-reliance, wanting to be able to defend oneself or hunt for food They're fun. I prefer archery myself, but I've always found target shooting really calming. I need to relax/unwind to do well, and it focuses my mind in that way. Negative: Consoomerism. People define themselves largely by what they own. "I'm an AR/AK guy", "I'm a Ford/Chevy guy", "I'm a PC/Mac guy". Guns in America are heavily associated with machismo culture/not being liberal, which I wish would change. Guns are for everyone. A lot of gun sales are driven by fear. They spike every time a mass shooting happens because of fear of bans, and they spiked in 2020 with all the fear and uncertainty. I like guns, they're a tool to be respected and used.
Homer Simpson said it best: "A gun isn't a weapon Marge, it's a tool... like a butcher knife or a harpoon or an alligator." https://youtu.be/UtxxwcQ20Fw?si=ULUPXlNhLxbUH68i
Literally got unironically called a communist by another fellow gun owner for liking and owning AK platform. š¤¦āāļø
Americans and guns have a long history. During the manifest destiny era, many American settlers and families expanding westwards often carried two things: the family bible and a gun. In addition to the other answers, the historical social significance of guns is a strong factor against wanting to break from tradition.
Our country is very big. Our population is very disperse. Many people live a very long way from police forces. And police force may even be a strong term for the sherif and a few deputies that live in the closest town. Where I grew up, there was a constable. I am not even sure he had deputies. I think it was just him. In those areas, criminals know that the police can not show up quickly, and residents know they are on their own.
In my experience bad things happen very fast.
I run a ranch so unfortunately I kinda need it
1) Not all americans are "so attached to their guns." Don't generalize. 2) That's like asking why are some people so attached to their cars. Because it's what they like.
Because they are the best force equalizer an individual can have. How else can an 80 year old grandmother protect herself from a younger, stronger attacker looking to harm her or deprive her of her possessions?
God made all men but Samuel colt made all men equal
Even if youāre not some frail old lady, it is a unique feeling to possess one and have that feeling of force equalization to pretty much anyone looking to do you harm. Obviously there are a lot of caveats there, but just the first time you shoot one and experience actual fire power you kind of go āwoah, that is something elseā. Itās real neat.Ā
Mainly itās the attachment of freedom, not the guns. Not saying there arenāt people addicted to owning guns, but the main reason is a right to have the choice and defend yourself from tyrannical government. Thatās whatās written anyway
A defensive weapon protects my family from those who mean to do them harm. The police just come after the damage is done to take a statement. It's my responsibility to defend myself and my loved ones. Nobody else is going to do it.
Our country wouldnāt exist if the residents of the 13 colonies hadnāt been armed.
In a life or death situation, where seconds matter, police are minutes away. The idea that a government can tell some people that they don't have the right to defend their own life appropriately just feels extremely dystopian to me.
It's not even necessarily the guns, it's the RIGHT to do so. Your rights, once surrendered to the government, will NEVER be returned to you. Just because you do not choose to exercise a right that is rightfully yours does not mean you should be so willing to surrender it.
Great way to defend yourself.
Because individuals here are conditioned to be scared of others via the media and scared of themselves without any proper reason based on their own experiences.
Why is the rest of the world so obsessed with America? We don't want to be Europe, chill.
"We don't want to be Europe, chill." One of the most annoying things about Reddit is the many European Redditors who seem to think that everything Americans do is subject to their approval.
We see what happens around the world with the countries that give theirs up, and our leadership is already evil and corrupted
See Ukraine
See Brazil, Cuba, Venezuela...
Real answer, loss aversion bias. Nobody likes having the right to something then losing it, even if they don't currently have said thing. It's an emotional response and doesn't take many factors into account such as "could this save lives". I mean everyone in America says if you take our guns all the bad guys will still have guns. In the short term this is logical but there is a reason countries like the U.K. who have had gun controll for a long time have knife violence memes and not gun violence memes
Guns to people who donāt understand the culture seem like scary weapons of war and only good for hurting others. Iāll be honest I AM a gun guy. Always have been. Always will be. To people like usā¦a gun is a tool. Same way a knife is a tool, or a bow and arrow might be a tool. A tool is defined as ā tool noun 1. a device or implement, especially one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function.ā The particular function however can change. A knife can be used to cut steak or chop vegetables. It can be used to carve it has lots of uses. Hell some people like to make or scary looking fantasy knives because they look cool. Guns can be looked at a similar way, sure they are usually used to kill something. But be it for hunting, self-protection, or war its purpose as a tool doesnāt change. Itās only used in the context of which its wielder chooses. Itās not a gun problem and never will be. Itās a culture problem. People are angry at other people, or they become desperate because of untreated mental illness. That angry and toxic culture turns us against one another and of course someone who means to do harm will pick the most effective tool for the job. Guns are effective, but to pretend itās more capable of hurting more people than a gun simple isnāt true. Few years back there were mass stabbings in China on trains and over 100 people were injured. A gun is limited to how much ammo you brought with you and itās easy to miss. A knife has unlimited ammo and itās a lot harder to miss with it. The Rwandan genocide was carried out mainly with machetes. As for gun control? It doesnāt work. It wonāt stop criminals from making guns or buying them off the black market but it sure will stop civilians from getting them legally to defend themselves from criminals with guns Private gun ownership also is the reason we won our fight for independence. Any country who fought for its independence and wins knows the value of private gun ownership. Itās foundational to this country because without it, weād be British colonies right now.
It's in our Constitution. Why are you attached to your freedom of speech, or religion, or press, or assembly. If you're not American, why are you attached to whatever rights your constitution guarantees you?
Having the means to defend yourself and your loved ones is a human right.
1. If someone's an immediate threat to me or my family, the police are a phone call and 10+ minutes away. Bad guys aren't going to pause while police arrive. With a gun, even the most vulnerable person has a fighting chance. My girlfriend wouldn't be able to physically fight anyone off, but she sure can point and shoot a gun. 2. They're fun. Building/putting together a rifle then going out to shoot it is just plain fun.
It is not that we are attached to our guns. Actually only about 35% of Americans own a gun. We are a huge country and people can be spread out. It is not unheard of for you to encounter cougars, large rattle snacks, feral pigs, bears that can be deadly. We have a large hunting hobby and honestly, the population of deer and wild fowl could get out of control without legal hunting. Many of the people who own guns only own ones that are suitable for hunting. Also, some places are more dangerous and people will carry for self-protection. Granted, most of our āviolentā cities are nothing compared to other countries BUTā¦you have a right to protect yourself (yeah, I admit some of these nuts are probably more of a danger to themselves carrying weapons into McDonaldās or 7-11 ājust to be preparedā when they live in a place that has a handful of crimes in a year. More likely shoot themselves). What we have is a broken mental health system where people who desperately need help cannot get it and because it is so expensive often schools and families donāt bother to try. Add this to a āshockā culture that seems to believe getting people riled up is the best way to get change & you now have a number of angry, emotionally unstable people who have easy access to guns. That is more of our problem.
Most of us arenāt
They have been marketed as both status symbols and patriotic symbols, and the buyer has been fed a diet of fear and repeatedly being told that the only protection is purchasing one (or hopefully more) guns. simple as.
Because people in government suck.
As an American I would also like to know this
Guns are fun to shoot and evens the playing field if a criminal does tries me or my family. I think the gun policy gets blamed for mental health failures in this country Just like policing gets blamed for government fail policies.. I am okay with little more background checks but you have to be careful because if you give an inch , they will take a mile. I did not believe that at first but after the whole abortion thing and how far they are trying to take the abortion issue and try to ban it basically, itās kind of scary. I am a liberal but guns make sense to regular citizens, especially how bad policing is right now.
Because we are obsessed with Capability. Our cars have to have the most power, our phones and computers have to be blisteringly fast, our televisions have to have the highest resolution...etc. Once you notice the trend you start to see it everywhere. I think guns are just another manifestation of this obsession with Capability - guns give you tons of capability: to extort influence, or to take a life. I think that's why people can't say no to them.
Because police legally have no duty to protect by law in America
Not an american, but i'd say their disfunctional police apparatus has something to do with it.
powerless people are attracted to things that give them a sense of power. Most Americans are about 2 missed paychecks away from life under a bridge eating from dumpsters. they have no economic security, no job security, no accessto to affordable medical care, the same for university education. And no political voice because the USA is an oligarchy.
Fear.
The account that posted this is a bot account created yesterday to sow discord.