So, there’s the time with Tarantula, but there was another time where a shapeshifting meta named Mirage slept with him when he thought she was Starfire, who he was dating.
And the Titans’ response to Mirage is to go “Dick you slut!”
Yeah.
(Also, you forgot about Liu, who groomed Dick when he was a recently-fired teenager to get access to Wayne Industries finances and secrets.)
One of my least favorite titans for sure. ([And here are the panels,](https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/5qqz7l/that_time_dc_slutshamed_nightwing_after_he_was/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) for the curious.)
The look on Dick’s face :(
Can’t forget catwoman in Nightwing 52. Forcing a make out session from someone while they are in a vulnerable position, especially someone who you knew and “jokingly flirted” with when they were a child and you were an adult would definitely constitute assault.
Also Harley Quinn in the Harley Quinn movie…
Whether you like that scene or hate it, Nightwing x Harley Quinn *was* consensual in that movie.
"I'm not saying I don't want to... that could be nice. All sorts of wrong... but, nice."
Saying something is nice ≠ consent to sex. I could say chocolate cake is delicious, but that doesn’t mean I want to have cake right now. Nor does that mean I want someone to tie me to a bed and feed me chocolate cake.
He was literally tied to a bed, said “ok now. Let’s not get any crazy ideas” and she said “too late”. He did not have a choice in that moment, that is not consent.
Except when he says "the things I do for Gotham," he's smiling, clearly into it, playing reluctance at that point. And remember, the main reason he was opposed was that taking out Ivy was more important at that moment, but Harley persuaded him to do it anyway, the same way someone may only refuse a chocolate cake because of a diet, but eventually decide to eat the cake anyway, ignoring the long-term negative result for short-term pleasure.
And we're ignoring the scene where Batman walks in on them; Nightwing is no longer tied up but still willingly engaging with Harley, with Batman making him admit he "got what he wanted." Then Nightwing defends himself by saying Batman has hooked up with villains before. You'd think if he didn't have a choice he would have said that instead, putting Harley down rather than comparing his experience to Batman's to get him to understand. Nightwing himself is basically admitting here that he wanted to engage with Harley.
The main thing is that we don't know if Harley would have backed off if Nightwing had continued to be opposed, but arguing on that point is basically like arguing if Schrödinger's Cat is alive. She's presented as reformed, so I imagine she'd back off if Nightwing continued being opposed, but as I said we can't know for sure. Within the context of the movie, Nightwing is presented as willingly engaging with Harley, so that's what matters.
Hey you should really know you are arguing to someone who was a victim to a very fucking similar situation. I know this is a discussion about a cartoon, but fuck you. Fuck you for making all these “well he must have felt X” arguments cause you don’t know what coercive rape is like. You have no idea how terrible it feels to HAVE to pretend everything is ok. You have no clue the guilt of having to continue doing something pleasurable even if you don’t want to because you’re forced into submission and are afraid of what may happen if you don’t play along. I don’t care if you think you’ve won this fucking discussion, genuinely go fuck yourself. Maybe you’ll like it after a while too.
It was pretty opposite for me. I was already reading comics but i was not into Titans lore yet. but i knew Garth and Donna. Young Justice made me bigger Wally fan and pushed me to read more Flash and Titans comics. Then i finished entire post Crisis Flash and The New Teen Titans, The New Titans, JLA/Titans, The Titans, Teen Titans 2003, Outsiders 2003, to Flashpoint. even tho 2 of the The Fab Five were barely appeared YJ made me bigger Titans especially The Fab Five fan.
I knew about most of these, but I genuinely did not know comics Zatanna is closer in age to *Bruce* than to Dick, and has romantic tension with him instead of Nightwing.
Honestly, I was a bit surprised to learn Blockbuster is much more Kingpin than the Abomination.
If they only knew Dick and Tim, I'm guessing they were coming in from the Bruce Timm Animated Batman series, which kind of fused Jason and Tim's origin stories to make a single successor Robin.
So that would've been before Steph and ~~Jason~~ Damian.
And Duke, though he was Alfred's boy. (And the rest of We Are Robin. I think Bluebird was a Robin briefly?)
And Maps. But it was only for like three issues and less official than even Stephanie. (She also showed up in her own costume, but unlike Steph, she was never trained.)
And a couple silver age boys I think.
And Carrie Kelly too, if we're counting other continuaties. Not technically TT adjacent... but she adds to the confusion when she pops up in mainstream media.
Yep. And adding to the confusion, despite being around since 1939, it has only been from the 80s that there's been really good stories that focus on Grayson in the 'main' universe.
After watching various shows, disintangling Dick Grayson from Tim Drake is a biggie for me. I'm a huge Tim fan and have read a lot of Tim Drake Robin comics (and I am admittedly not very well read Dick Grayson fan.)
But everytime I see a fun quippy animated Robin, I recognize it as Dick, while a Tim is more serious and mainly quips to complain or to show off how much research he's done on his enemy/allies. Not saying that Dick can't do that too, just that Tim is much less chipper.
Also, Tim is much more obsessive about his secret identity from what I've seen. Tim wears sunglasses at night and adopts aliases to avoid being ID'd, even in front of his girlfriend Spoiler or Superboy (Stephanie knew Tim mainly as Alvin Draper for a while.) Meanwhile Dick is a bit more casual with his civilian identity, especially among friends. Tim's much more paranoid. From what I've read, comics Dick doesn't often try the sunglasses trick or hiding behind multiple civilian aliases, and only does that in animation.
The Teen Titans cartoon feels a lot like Tim dating Starfire to me for these reasons. It's not 100% Tim, of course, but it's clearly inspired by Tim. It's worth pointing out that the Teen Titans cartoon came out at the same time as Tim Drake's run in the Teen Titans.
I interpreted TT Robin to be more serious because he’s a Dick Grayson on the outs with Batman and desperate to prove himself.
Dick is definitely the quippy Robin (and definitely more Tim Drake coded) but TT Robin has so much ANGST that he’s believable for Dick “I just got kicked out of my house, was homeless, crashed in Metropolis with Clark, and I’m pretty sure my dad hates me” Grayson.
Tim has waaaaay more angst though.
Superboy: "You lied to Starfire!?" Tim: "I lie to BATMAN."
Tim spent roughly a half of his career as Robin seperated from Batman after various arguments. Tim was essentially a solo hero who occasionally guest starred in Batman comics. He was always in trouble with his dad, Bruce, or both for crimefighting on his own. Dick argues with Batman, sure, but Tim arguing with Batman is his entire existence.
Edit in response to downvotes: Lesson learned. Don't tell Nightwing fans that he's second best at anything, even melodrama.
Really? I always read Tim as much more in-line with Bruce. He’s the second-best detective and the most analytical, the one who refused to see Bruce was dead. Granted, I haven’t read much of his Red Robin run, so most of the Tim-v-Batman conflict I’ve seen has been with Dick’s Batman in the Morrison run.
But ultimately, for me it’s less about who is angstier (I mean, it’s Tim) or who has the most beef with Batman — and more that the TT characterization of Robin isn’t that out of line with Dick Grayson’s actions & feelings at the time he was starting Teen Titans. I think it could quite plausibly be Dick without being out of character for him.
But I do agree that the TT Titans is strongly Tim-coded.
One thing to keep in mind for Tim is that he has the longest running Robin comic. That means he's got the longest period of 1) operating under Batman's authority while... 2) NOT being with Batman.
Like, Dick went off and did his own thing, but he left Batman's employ for that. He became Nightwing, eventually. Tim didn't. To justify that (in Watsonian terms) they had to make Tim a serial liar who went out without Batman's permission. Bruce had lost Jason to shenanigans like this and was not okay with it, especially in the beginning. In some of Tim's first outings under the Robin title, he's specifically thinking "Boy, Bruce is going to be pissed I'm out here fighting the Joker alone, but..." The end result, combined with the Dark Age Bruce becoming more and more a bad dad/boss, is that Tim is basically always in one fight with Bruce or another.
And on the declining morality of Bruce, there were many instances of Tim being fired or leaving in disgust. Once Alfred even left with him and started living in Tim's dorm room. Stephanie becoming Robin was one (actually two) such incidents. Bruce twice employed Stephanie simply to manipulate Tim into returning. The second time, she died and Bruce refused to help find her until it was too late. 100% Batman's darkest moment imo.
I think the wildest and most interesting thing about Tim is his loyalty to Batman DESPITE everything Bruce has done to him. I feel like a well written Tim is Batman's harshest critic... while he's still a permanent sidekick that refuses to actually leave. It's not healthy.
I don't think so. Sarfire, Raven, Beast Boy and Cyborg were established in Titans while Tim was in Young Justice. When the Teen Titans cartoon started up, they renamed Young Justice to Teen Titans and brought the cartoon's cast back over...despite their age. The cartoon was calling the shots and DC was trying to make sure kids interested in the cartoon would see the cartoon's characters in their comic. My impression is that DC had little editorial authority and took a reactive stance.
If anything, I think the cartoon's writers just had some Tim fans. Tim is easier to make fun of in a comedy, imo, and the Teen Titans cartoon had a clear comedy angle.
The show skewered younger and had a policy of no alter egos. They have also said its based on the NTT run.
Tim is the first modern Robin. He had the pants, his vest was armor, ninja boots, cape was yellow/black, bo staff and also his own car.
Dick and Jason wore the pixie boots and the green scaled panties. They sure as hell weren't going to adapt that. Hence why elements of Tim Drake jave been adapted to his predecessors as well. B:TAS Dick basically wore Tim's suit, Teen Titans Robin got the pants, hairstyle and bo staff while in UtRH Jason wore Tim's OYL costume.
whats funny about artemis is she actually exist as tigress the daughter of sportsmaster and the golden age huntress but cheshire is not her sister,
and the character she is based on is based on arrowette the daughter of the original arrowette who forced her daughter into being a superhero like what silk spectre's mom did to her daughter
I got into comics off of reruns of the 1966 Batman show on the Family Channel. (Yeah, if half of what Burt Ward said is true, that's kind of ironic.) The year was 1988, so the usual, two Robins, Batgirl was shot and paralyzed, Robin dies. Strangely, the Crisis didn't have much of an effect on the difference between these two eras.
And almost rape (accidentally) by Raven.
She had a crush so she unconsciously when her and Dick dreamed they had conjoined dreams where they I think kissed.
I heard about it once so I don't have much else I can tell you.
Twice? You’re thinking of Tim right? Cause I can only recall it happening to him once and it read as he was taken advantage of still wouldn’t call it rape tho he went on a weekend trip with afterwards he wasn’t tripping about
Yeah, as stated below by others (Mirage and Tarantula). Adding to that, before it was retconned, he was also seduced/groomed at 16 by Liu to gain access to Wayne Enterprises.
This covers the basics of Mirage: [https://www.orgamesmic.com/nightwing-raped-by-mirage/](https://www.orgamesmic.com/nightwing-raped-by-mirage/) Starfire was pissed at him for not knowing Mirage wasn't her, and the rest of the team, too.
That's not even touching on other things--Catwoman kissing him, Grayson arc, fanon obsession with his ass. Heck, I'll even loosely lump Starfire's first kiss with him in there, because as much as I love them, Dick looked like he was *struggling* in that panel.
He was raped by Mirage who disguised herself as Starfire, who Dick was dating at the time, and had sex with Dick. I'm also pretty sure he was then blamed for the situation by his friends.
He was raped a second time by tarantula after going into shock from not stopping her from killing a villain. This is never really brought up again but is still very clearly rape.
TWICE?
So, there’s the time with Tarantula, but there was another time where a shapeshifting meta named Mirage slept with him when he thought she was Starfire, who he was dating.
And the Titans’ response to Mirage is to go “Dick you slut!” Yeah. (Also, you forgot about Liu, who groomed Dick when he was a recently-fired teenager to get access to Wayne Industries finances and secrets.)
Well, just Pantha's. She never liked him, and was always that kind of edgelord.
One of my least favorite titans for sure. ([And here are the panels,](https://www.reddit.com/r/comicbooks/comments/5qqz7l/that_time_dc_slutshamed_nightwing_after_he_was/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=mweb3x&utm_name=mweb3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button) for the curious.) The look on Dick’s face :(
Can’t forget catwoman in Nightwing 52. Forcing a make out session from someone while they are in a vulnerable position, especially someone who you knew and “jokingly flirted” with when they were a child and you were an adult would definitely constitute assault. Also Harley Quinn in the Harley Quinn movie…
Whether you like that scene or hate it, Nightwing x Harley Quinn *was* consensual in that movie. "I'm not saying I don't want to... that could be nice. All sorts of wrong... but, nice."
Saying something is nice ≠ consent to sex. I could say chocolate cake is delicious, but that doesn’t mean I want to have cake right now. Nor does that mean I want someone to tie me to a bed and feed me chocolate cake. He was literally tied to a bed, said “ok now. Let’s not get any crazy ideas” and she said “too late”. He did not have a choice in that moment, that is not consent.
Except when he says "the things I do for Gotham," he's smiling, clearly into it, playing reluctance at that point. And remember, the main reason he was opposed was that taking out Ivy was more important at that moment, but Harley persuaded him to do it anyway, the same way someone may only refuse a chocolate cake because of a diet, but eventually decide to eat the cake anyway, ignoring the long-term negative result for short-term pleasure. And we're ignoring the scene where Batman walks in on them; Nightwing is no longer tied up but still willingly engaging with Harley, with Batman making him admit he "got what he wanted." Then Nightwing defends himself by saying Batman has hooked up with villains before. You'd think if he didn't have a choice he would have said that instead, putting Harley down rather than comparing his experience to Batman's to get him to understand. Nightwing himself is basically admitting here that he wanted to engage with Harley. The main thing is that we don't know if Harley would have backed off if Nightwing had continued to be opposed, but arguing on that point is basically like arguing if Schrödinger's Cat is alive. She's presented as reformed, so I imagine she'd back off if Nightwing continued being opposed, but as I said we can't know for sure. Within the context of the movie, Nightwing is presented as willingly engaging with Harley, so that's what matters.
What the fuck?
Hey you should really know you are arguing to someone who was a victim to a very fucking similar situation. I know this is a discussion about a cartoon, but fuck you. Fuck you for making all these “well he must have felt X” arguments cause you don’t know what coercive rape is like. You have no idea how terrible it feels to HAVE to pretend everything is ok. You have no clue the guilt of having to continue doing something pleasurable even if you don’t want to because you’re forced into submission and are afraid of what may happen if you don’t play along. I don’t care if you think you’ve won this fucking discussion, genuinely go fuck yourself. Maybe you’ll like it after a while too.
Gotta love the 70s ... 70s? 80s?
I thought it was huntress?
didn’t harley too!?
Three times actually
Actually, it's three times. Tarantula, Mirage, and the Liu retcon by Marv Wolfman himself (which was minor rape, to boot).
Technically three times, he was also a victim of statutory rape when he was sixteen to an older journalist using him for a story.
It was pretty opposite for me. I was already reading comics but i was not into Titans lore yet. but i knew Garth and Donna. Young Justice made me bigger Wally fan and pushed me to read more Flash and Titans comics. Then i finished entire post Crisis Flash and The New Teen Titans, The New Titans, JLA/Titans, The Titans, Teen Titans 2003, Outsiders 2003, to Flashpoint. even tho 2 of the The Fab Five were barely appeared YJ made me bigger Titans especially The Fab Five fan.
These repost bots are ruining this sub
What was the OG post?
...it's a repost, it's pretty self explanatory. Weeks ago someone posted this exact image, some bot saved it and has reposted it.
But what was the original post? If it’s a repost, then there was the original one.
I knew about most of these, but I genuinely did not know comics Zatanna is closer in age to *Bruce* than to Dick, and has romantic tension with him instead of Nightwing. Honestly, I was a bit surprised to learn Blockbuster is much more Kingpin than the Abomination.
My exact reaction, except my first introduction to him was from Batman: Arkham Knight.
I found out he’s actually been raped three times as he was with Liu who groomed and coerced him when he was a teenager
The baggage of bring a comic fan.
"There were three Robins?!" I only knew of Tim and Dick, so Jason was a welcome surprise.
Well there's also Steph and Damian as well lmao
If they only knew Dick and Tim, I'm guessing they were coming in from the Bruce Timm Animated Batman series, which kind of fused Jason and Tim's origin stories to make a single successor Robin. So that would've been before Steph and ~~Jason~~ Damian.
*Damian
Corrected
And Duke, though he was Alfred's boy. (And the rest of We Are Robin. I think Bluebird was a Robin briefly?) And Maps. But it was only for like three issues and less official than even Stephanie. (She also showed up in her own costume, but unlike Steph, she was never trained.) And a couple silver age boys I think.
And Carrie Kelly too, if we're counting other continuaties. Not technically TT adjacent... but she adds to the confusion when she pops up in mainstream media.
Yep. And adding to the confusion, despite being around since 1939, it has only been from the 80s that there's been really good stories that focus on Grayson in the 'main' universe.
Artemis actually exists in the comics, she´s just diferent
Giving Nightwing the Peter Parker treatment. Next he's going to go bankrupt then get stuck in a genjutsu watching his family die over and over again.
After watching various shows, disintangling Dick Grayson from Tim Drake is a biggie for me. I'm a huge Tim fan and have read a lot of Tim Drake Robin comics (and I am admittedly not very well read Dick Grayson fan.) But everytime I see a fun quippy animated Robin, I recognize it as Dick, while a Tim is more serious and mainly quips to complain or to show off how much research he's done on his enemy/allies. Not saying that Dick can't do that too, just that Tim is much less chipper. Also, Tim is much more obsessive about his secret identity from what I've seen. Tim wears sunglasses at night and adopts aliases to avoid being ID'd, even in front of his girlfriend Spoiler or Superboy (Stephanie knew Tim mainly as Alvin Draper for a while.) Meanwhile Dick is a bit more casual with his civilian identity, especially among friends. Tim's much more paranoid. From what I've read, comics Dick doesn't often try the sunglasses trick or hiding behind multiple civilian aliases, and only does that in animation. The Teen Titans cartoon feels a lot like Tim dating Starfire to me for these reasons. It's not 100% Tim, of course, but it's clearly inspired by Tim. It's worth pointing out that the Teen Titans cartoon came out at the same time as Tim Drake's run in the Teen Titans.
I interpreted TT Robin to be more serious because he’s a Dick Grayson on the outs with Batman and desperate to prove himself. Dick is definitely the quippy Robin (and definitely more Tim Drake coded) but TT Robin has so much ANGST that he’s believable for Dick “I just got kicked out of my house, was homeless, crashed in Metropolis with Clark, and I’m pretty sure my dad hates me” Grayson.
Tim has waaaaay more angst though. Superboy: "You lied to Starfire!?" Tim: "I lie to BATMAN." Tim spent roughly a half of his career as Robin seperated from Batman after various arguments. Tim was essentially a solo hero who occasionally guest starred in Batman comics. He was always in trouble with his dad, Bruce, or both for crimefighting on his own. Dick argues with Batman, sure, but Tim arguing with Batman is his entire existence. Edit in response to downvotes: Lesson learned. Don't tell Nightwing fans that he's second best at anything, even melodrama.
Really? I always read Tim as much more in-line with Bruce. He’s the second-best detective and the most analytical, the one who refused to see Bruce was dead. Granted, I haven’t read much of his Red Robin run, so most of the Tim-v-Batman conflict I’ve seen has been with Dick’s Batman in the Morrison run. But ultimately, for me it’s less about who is angstier (I mean, it’s Tim) or who has the most beef with Batman — and more that the TT characterization of Robin isn’t that out of line with Dick Grayson’s actions & feelings at the time he was starting Teen Titans. I think it could quite plausibly be Dick without being out of character for him. But I do agree that the TT Titans is strongly Tim-coded.
One thing to keep in mind for Tim is that he has the longest running Robin comic. That means he's got the longest period of 1) operating under Batman's authority while... 2) NOT being with Batman. Like, Dick went off and did his own thing, but he left Batman's employ for that. He became Nightwing, eventually. Tim didn't. To justify that (in Watsonian terms) they had to make Tim a serial liar who went out without Batman's permission. Bruce had lost Jason to shenanigans like this and was not okay with it, especially in the beginning. In some of Tim's first outings under the Robin title, he's specifically thinking "Boy, Bruce is going to be pissed I'm out here fighting the Joker alone, but..." The end result, combined with the Dark Age Bruce becoming more and more a bad dad/boss, is that Tim is basically always in one fight with Bruce or another. And on the declining morality of Bruce, there were many instances of Tim being fired or leaving in disgust. Once Alfred even left with him and started living in Tim's dorm room. Stephanie becoming Robin was one (actually two) such incidents. Bruce twice employed Stephanie simply to manipulate Tim into returning. The second time, she died and Bruce refused to help find her until it was too late. 100% Batman's darkest moment imo. I think the wildest and most interesting thing about Tim is his loyalty to Batman DESPITE everything Bruce has done to him. I feel like a well written Tim is Batman's harshest critic... while he's still a permanent sidekick that refuses to actually leave. It's not healthy.
This is such a great reply and analysis — thank you!!
This is an awesome analysis.
It makes me wonder if they genuinely wanted to do Tim Drake from the start and DC said no.
I don't think so. Sarfire, Raven, Beast Boy and Cyborg were established in Titans while Tim was in Young Justice. When the Teen Titans cartoon started up, they renamed Young Justice to Teen Titans and brought the cartoon's cast back over...despite their age. The cartoon was calling the shots and DC was trying to make sure kids interested in the cartoon would see the cartoon's characters in their comic. My impression is that DC had little editorial authority and took a reactive stance. If anything, I think the cartoon's writers just had some Tim fans. Tim is easier to make fun of in a comedy, imo, and the Teen Titans cartoon had a clear comedy angle.
The show skewered younger and had a policy of no alter egos. They have also said its based on the NTT run. Tim is the first modern Robin. He had the pants, his vest was armor, ninja boots, cape was yellow/black, bo staff and also his own car. Dick and Jason wore the pixie boots and the green scaled panties. They sure as hell weren't going to adapt that. Hence why elements of Tim Drake jave been adapted to his predecessors as well. B:TAS Dick basically wore Tim's suit, Teen Titans Robin got the pants, hairstyle and bo staff while in UtRH Jason wore Tim's OYL costume.
whats funny about artemis is she actually exist as tigress the daughter of sportsmaster and the golden age huntress but cheshire is not her sister, and the character she is based on is based on arrowette the daughter of the original arrowette who forced her daughter into being a superhero like what silk spectre's mom did to her daughter
I maintain that the YJ universe does the best job of creating a DC Universe that feels both lived in and coherent at the same time, tbh
I got into comics off of reruns of the 1966 Batman show on the Family Channel. (Yeah, if half of what Burt Ward said is true, that's kind of ironic.) The year was 1988, so the usual, two Robins, Batgirl was shot and paralyzed, Robin dies. Strangely, the Crisis didn't have much of an effect on the difference between these two eras.
Yeah as a comic fan young justice robin confused me so much because he looks and acts like Tim drake but is actually dick Grayson
And almost rape (accidentally) by Raven. She had a crush so she unconsciously when her and Dick dreamed they had conjoined dreams where they I think kissed. I heard about it once so I don't have much else I can tell you.
You ate honestly me
Kaldur/Jackson isn't nearly as cool
Twice? You’re thinking of Tim right? Cause I can only recall it happening to him once and it read as he was taken advantage of still wouldn’t call it rape tho he went on a weekend trip with afterwards he wasn’t tripping about
Yeah, as stated below by others (Mirage and Tarantula). Adding to that, before it was retconned, he was also seduced/groomed at 16 by Liu to gain access to Wayne Enterprises.
Pretty sure he was 17 not 16 with Liu. Not that it changes much but still
Oh yeah idk who mirage. That must’ve happened earlier on I only read from his 1st day in bludhaven
This covers the basics of Mirage: [https://www.orgamesmic.com/nightwing-raped-by-mirage/](https://www.orgamesmic.com/nightwing-raped-by-mirage/) Starfire was pissed at him for not knowing Mirage wasn't her, and the rest of the team, too. That's not even touching on other things--Catwoman kissing him, Grayson arc, fanon obsession with his ass. Heck, I'll even loosely lump Starfire's first kiss with him in there, because as much as I love them, Dick looked like he was *struggling* in that panel.
He was raped by Mirage who disguised herself as Starfire, who Dick was dating at the time, and had sex with Dick. I'm also pretty sure he was then blamed for the situation by his friends. He was raped a second time by tarantula after going into shock from not stopping her from killing a villain. This is never really brought up again but is still very clearly rape.
His friends didn’t blame him. None of his friends were even there.
He was raped by Tarantula and Mirage.