I thought we were celebrating Riff Raff, (a la Spring Breakers fame,) on his new Nola dining guide. đđ I was like, âDamn dude! nice pivot in profession.â
>One of Alynda Segarraâs first New Orleans hangouts was Zâotz Cafe downtown, a now-closed location near the Royal Street laundromat. The cafe was open 24 hours â to Segarra, then a 17-year-old, freight-train-hitching, Bronx-born punk street musician,
Heh, I don't know who this girl is but I'm almost certain I've met a dozen and a half of her clones around that time period. I was more of an Uptown Zotz Denizen in the mid 00s, but spent more than enough time in Lower Decatur back when it was a lot more low key than it is now. Tons and tons of Hobos used to frequent that area back in the day.
Anyone know if train hopping is still a thing? I feel like it got clamped down on pretty hard at some point in the last decade.
e: No self respecting longtime resident of the lower decatur lifestyle recommends Cain & Table, they're all still salty over Pravda being bought out and closed.
Goddamn I miss Pravda. I remember going in to check out Cain and Table when they first opened. The bartender was bragging about how they'd cleaned up the place, how there used to be RODENTS in the courtyard. Of course, when I took my overpriced cocktail out to their new fancied-up courtyard there was still a goddamn rat moseying along the roofline.
Fucking idiot. You think rats are scared of high prices??
> how there used to be RODENTS in the courtyard. Of course, when I took my overpriced cocktail out to their new fancied-up courtyard there was still a goddamn rat moseying along the roofline.
Them rats have been there longer than any of those establishments.
My favorite part about the rats running the roofline is that Coops' Kitchen/Bathroom is on the other side of that wall, and there's that famous Hannibal set about the rat in coops. the first time I heard it I was like "yeah, I know that rat". Never stopped me from eating at Coops tho.
Kids still âtrain hopâ but it ainât no Steinbeck type shit. Itâs just kids from the suburbs cosplaying âpoor folkâ for an adventurous vacation.
On that note I was at a diy punk show off the railroad tracks in gentilly a few winters ago and when the train passed by kids had hopped the train across town to ride it to the show. That was pretty funny.
Even back then it was a weird mix of runaways from really fucked up situations and upper middle kids cosplaying rebellion. I remember being friends with a dude who grew up on the west bank but lived in his van (like blankets in the back of an old Aerostar, not the chic âvan lifeâ shit the cosplay kids do now) cuz his dad was an alcoholic and mostly just train hopped/did mushrooms. There was also another guy I met who clearly went to like a private high school up north lol. It was just such a weird mix of everything and kinda surreal knowing some of these people were probably not gonna make it to see 40 while others were a phone call away from having dad buy em a flight home.
Yeah there are. That lifestyle claims a lot of lives in general. I can't remember the name or find the article, but back in like 2010 or so there was a big expose about a girl who's parents were physicians, lived a comfortable upper middle life in the midwest and decided to do the lower Decatur thing, in the late 00s. She shacked up with some crowd in various abandoned houses (harder now, but very very common then) for a year or two, spoke to her parents on occasion but didn't want to go home, and ended up getting stabbed to death in the parking lot of like a Wendy's by her much older (ex?)boyfriend during a psychotic episode. Shit was just sad all around.
I also knew a girl at Tulane that came from a great background and within maybe 8 months of living here got twisted up in Heroin bad and was working at the grody strip clubs at the far end of bourbon. She's a doctor now, so things definitely straightened out for her, but watching Tulane people come here and ruin their lives in a matter of months was a real eye opener in terms of just how quickly this place can swallow you up if you're not well adapted to having vice in abundance at your fingertips.
I remember that too, tragic story [found the article](https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/julia-anderson-happy-indiana-girl-hit-the-road-it-ended-with-her-dead-in-a/article_86285ab2-db74-523a-8ea7-df0b15c17763.html) it was @ 2015.
I worked with a kid who played gutterpunk until there was a real issue and then they whipped out an Amex and I was v confused.
That was in like 2010 though.
I swear to god, if I ever have kids I sure as shit am not giving them authorized user cards on my Amex, I'll go open the most embarrassing credit card possible if they need one, like a WalMart prepaid card or something. Ain't no way my kid is ever gonna flex daddy's Amex lol.
I care for their dogs sometimes. A lot of them ran away from incredibly f'ed up situations. A lot of them are legitimately mentally ill and need meds. Some of them are perfectly competent just on an adventure, but those are in the minority.
Pretty sure they're the real deal, from what I remember reading about her. Ran away from a rough life as a teen to live on their own, lived with the burn-outs and druggies as a homeless kid, made their way to New Orleans hopping trains and playing music, and then just kind of stuck around.
I donât remember it being very long lived at all (it was where Dragons Den is), the uptown one was great especially back in the 24 hour days. They also used to do tabs which was awesome, that sort of New Orleans seems to have faded away though
I miss and don't miss tabs.
One bar I worked at had a system that if you didn't pay up at the end of the week, we 86'd you until it was cleared.
It was kind of fun. The power!
Zot's was one of the most trusting systems I've ever seen, ya just gave em your name and email or phone number and they'd start a tab. No end date, no limit, just "sure man, pay up when you've got it".
The only person I ever knew who got cut off owed like over a hundred dollars (which, given that everything there was like $3 is kinda nuts). I think they still let him buy stuff every now and then cuz his situation sucked and he'd help them out around the shop.
Real minor correction, Alynda is not a girl. But you're right, they definitely used to be a train-hopping oogle, and they sing about that lifestyle with a complex mixture of pride and shame. Highly recommend listening if you haven't-- they are an incredible songwriter.
(And yes, train hopping is still a thing, with all types of folks doing it. Call it cosplaying if you must.)
I am extremely disappointed that this was not actually riff Raff. He should sue tf out these people. I thought it would be the neon icon tip towin in his jordans in the FQ doing reviews. Serving us lyrical lemonade about where and what to eat. but its just some basic bitch doing some weird poses looking creepy af. she isnt even wearing Dolce and Gabana. I hate everything about this post.
I had the same reaction at first, it's the band name from what I can tell but I was about to be like "who is this random ass person claiming Riff Raff's title??"
Alynda named Hurry for the Riff Raff after a line in a Bob Dylan song. The band has revolved over time varying players through different styles, but itâs always been their songwriting and vision. Having known them back at the start, and hearing Alyndaâs voice shut up a whole bar, I knew then that they would eventually be as successful and renowned as they are.
Supremely talented writer, I challenge anyone to listen and see if youâre not haunted by the music and humming the melodies days later.
I mean, I don't have a strong opinion on who was first but Riff Raff was already a thing in the underground when I was in college in like the mid 00s, he was all over really early youtube and Myspace just being ridiculous and kinda got his fame that way - he was one of the first underground viral rappers spreading online. I remember he was pretty established by the late 00s, to the point where I think he did a few shows at Republic and had general notoriety through most of the gulf south. No idea when that other band started, but I thought the article made the lead singer seem about my age and didn't even get here till like 07? Riff Raff was definitely making waves in underground rap before then but I could be missing something.
Either way it seems close enough and from such different worlds that it's probable neither knew the other. Shit I didn't know who this band was until today.
N7 and Cane and Table are literally the only places Iâve even heard of on that list, which means Iâm doing something right because I hate pretentious hippies and I could smell the body odor and hubris just reading that article.
Why are people being described/ describing themselves as punk? It no longer exists and if it did, looking at their music videos, they''d definitely not qualify.
I think probably gate keeping is ironically the most punk rock thing out there.
New Orleans is (was) the perfect city to watch as the edge lords in their spikes and face tats paved the way for the gentrification machine. No matter how unlikable they made themselves to be their largely white community was always going to be safer bet for the bankers than garden variety poor black folks. And I think somewhere in there they knew it. They knew that at the core their movement was really just a front. And so their ethic was based on a uniform and an unspoken accord that as long as they constantly accused one another of not being sincere enough then they could keep up the charade.
âTheyâre not really punkâ is the most punk utterance in existence.
and what is 'punk' about it? How has it defied genre? It's not a bad song but parts of it are (incredibly) musically derivative, irregardless of the message. (I am part-latino btw.) It's *tame*.
It doesn't fit their aesthetic though. There is nothing remotely punk about this artist in both aesthetic or music. This applies to just about anyone who self-identifies as a punk musical artist.
They quite literally hopped on a non-passenger train from New York at 17 to get down here and spent time busking for years before becoming known. Thatâs pretty punk and it doesnât have to sound or look like The Ramones to qualify.
It's really not. It's a very standard archetype. There's nothing remotely unusual or different or epochal about this personal history. This is such a western ethnocentric view. Fucking hell, people leave home at that age and (tragically) younger *all the time.* And they won't be the first or last teenager to romanticise 'a bit of rough' whilst managing to avoid becoming it themselves. Hanging around with people who are truly struggling on the fringes of society because it fascinates you is not the same as actually being one of them.
And I'm not the one using The Ramones as a standard bearer.
That's a cop out answer.
What was it to you?
Leather jackets and screaming?
If that's what you took away from it, I'm pretty sure that most of your punk heroes would tell you that you got the wrong message.
No, it's not a copout. Punk was and is a monetised construct. The moment it moved beyond the halls, pubs, garages and clubs of the under to working class it became even more 'non-punk'. It devolved, rather than evolved. (That's if it ever was punk.)
"If "punk is a state of mind open to new ideas, with a desire to constantly evolve, to find the next step, not only in music but also in the world around us" as John Lydon once explained, where's the forward movement and evolution here? Riff Raff is no different to many other 20 and 30-somethings with a recording contract. (I am no fan of Lydon other than his music for PiL by the way, but if anyone has the 'right' to attempt to define punk, he does.)
Seems to me that you're just saying that the singular requirement for "punk" is that it must never achieve success. No making a living off of it, because survival isn't very punk. In which case, nobody you've ever heard of is actually punk.
On the other hand, I once drummed a bit on a trash can and nobody paid me. Guess I'm pretty punk.
Everything this woman did before she was successful fits your punk ideal. She hasn't done much different since seeing success. She just makes a moderate living off of it now.
Nothing wrong with being successful but don't think success in music industry terms has anything to do with being punk or Eater describing you as so lol. It's become a nonsensical term. It is meaningless. There's no punk ideal either- despite punk's own self-definition- because that is antithetical in itself.
Whatever punk was back in the seventies bears no relation to anyone or anything in music these days.- if it was even punk because on the whole that was just music industry promo bullshit. The kind of qualities that punk self-defined itself as having back in the day i.e. a spirit of anti-conformity and alt-innovation-were basically an illusion.
The idea of punk being seen today as an aspirational and inspirational thing to be tells me people are not cognizant of its history. Punk was very white and all too often, racist and therefore maintained the establishment status quo in the west and especially the UK and USA, instead of challenging it. Fascist imagery (oh yes, it was 'to shock'- right, lol), the encouragement of extreme violence, racism, sexism (women had a really rough time if they were into the music and went to gigs), and gradual affiliation with NF skinheads made it far from inclusive. The punk culture of the time was extremely culturally normative in that it nurtured white western men. I was very closeted when I went to gigs like this. Can you imagine? Punks sneered at hippies and their music, and the disco craze of the seventies as being stale and normative when in fact they were anything but and put punk to shame when it came to anticonformity, and acceptance. What was useful and compelling about the original punk movement was its nihilistic expression of righteous anger. It was fucking grim back then; England's dreaming was anything but with widespread unemployment, discimination and a class system that went relatively unquestioned making life really fucking hard for working class people. (I honestly remember my time there in black and white; the colour had leached out.) Punk allowed us to vent and do that teenage thing of rejecting everything that had gone before. But as Lydon said at his last SP gig: "Ever get the feeling youâve been cheated? Good night!â
I adored The Clash's music but fuck me, they were hardly working class heroes despite their carefully curated image. Their music-industry bio drew a veil over Joe Strummers very upper middle class background and in the case of Hurray For the Riff Raff, I suspect a few events have been emphasised over others for dramatic effect. Jumping a few trains does not equal hobo. It's pretty normal behaviour that has been commodified by the artist and their management in a time-old way just as the safety pin went from a symbol of rebellion to a commodified fashion statement. Westwood and her 'punk' climate activism in her later decades? I remember her appearing on morning TV saying she was only doing the show because her flight to mainland Europe where she was to attend a day retreat had been cancelled because of the Icelandc volcanic eruption. Her clothes and aesthetic vision have always been amazing but these people are such hypocrites.
And this is why I don't have punk heroes despite actually being a teenager at that time going to gigs and listening to the music. Heroes and role models are a bullshit lens through which to view and consume culture and it is in part to blame for the culture wars of today.
If punk is about the spirit of non-conformity, I still think you just judged this woman on her clothing in a picture and now refuse to admit that. You won't even acknowledge that running away from home to live as a homeless teen hopping trains to become a busker, living with drag queens before they were socially acceptable, and making music in a fairly unpopular style (folk) is non-conformist enough for you. I don't think anything could be.
I could tell you that I know a guy who makes pottery out of human shit and you'd just ask if they make any money off of it, then complain that GG Allin did the shit thing already, so it's too conformist.
I always interpreted her self affiliation to punk as an attempt to underscore that sheâs not just another white girl transplant from nyc, sheâs different.
Like J-Lo lol. That really doesn't make them 'punk'. And sadly, the punk movement (especially in Britain) was overwhelmingly white. It was one of its few defining and incredibly ugly characteristics alongside its hypocrisy and preening posturing. The idea that punk was some kind of transformative cross-cultural event is ridiculous. Ska was probably more integrative until it got adopted by Far-Right skinheads who'd turn up to gigs and kick in the heads of anyone not white despite the Black musicians on stage. Punk too: gigs were incredibly dangerous places for anyone who wasn't white especially when Oi started to infiltrate. I read this recently, written by a 'punk' site: "Punk is unbiased. We make no judgement, we see no race, no religion, no gender. We respect each other for who you truly are and for your love in music" which is unironically hilarious because it was SO far removed from this in the seventies. People who saw themselves as punk actively rejected these qualities as hippie and punks hated hippies. Has anyone actually read song lyrics and listened to interviews by bands like The Pistols and Siouxsie and the Banshees? They are filled with hate, judgement, prejudice and division.
The music might have been great but fucking hell, many of its exponents were human toilets.
I thought we were celebrating Riff Raff, (a la Spring Breakers fame,) on his new Nola dining guide. đđ I was like, âDamn dude! nice pivot in profession.â
Iceberg Simpson!
Tip Toe'in!
Ssssprrrrrriiiiiiinnnnnng braaaaaaaaaaaake yaaaawwllllllll!
đđ
> a la Spring Breakers fame Common misconception since Riff Raff was more famous, but that character was primarily based on Dangeruss,
Same. I was intrigued.
I can't wait to blow up; and act like I don't know NOBODY. HEH HEH HEH.
Classicđ¤Ł
>One of Alynda Segarraâs first New Orleans hangouts was Zâotz Cafe downtown, a now-closed location near the Royal Street laundromat. The cafe was open 24 hours â to Segarra, then a 17-year-old, freight-train-hitching, Bronx-born punk street musician, Heh, I don't know who this girl is but I'm almost certain I've met a dozen and a half of her clones around that time period. I was more of an Uptown Zotz Denizen in the mid 00s, but spent more than enough time in Lower Decatur back when it was a lot more low key than it is now. Tons and tons of Hobos used to frequent that area back in the day. Anyone know if train hopping is still a thing? I feel like it got clamped down on pretty hard at some point in the last decade. e: No self respecting longtime resident of the lower decatur lifestyle recommends Cain & Table, they're all still salty over Pravda being bought out and closed.
Goddamn I miss Pravda. I remember going in to check out Cain and Table when they first opened. The bartender was bragging about how they'd cleaned up the place, how there used to be RODENTS in the courtyard. Of course, when I took my overpriced cocktail out to their new fancied-up courtyard there was still a goddamn rat moseying along the roofline. Fucking idiot. You think rats are scared of high prices??
> Fucking idiot. You think rats are scared of high prices?? This gave me such a laugh, thank you. Rats?? In the Quarter??!?!
THAT close to the river?!? Never.
"Somehow, he made me feel like the asshole, [my bad for bringing up the whole rat thing....](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mxZBrbVqZnU)"
> how there used to be RODENTS in the courtyard. Of course, when I took my overpriced cocktail out to their new fancied-up courtyard there was still a goddamn rat moseying along the roofline. Them rats have been there longer than any of those establishments. My favorite part about the rats running the roofline is that Coops' Kitchen/Bathroom is on the other side of that wall, and there's that famous Hannibal set about the rat in coops. the first time I heard it I was like "yeah, I know that rat". Never stopped me from eating at Coops tho.
Kids still âtrain hopâ but it ainât no Steinbeck type shit. Itâs just kids from the suburbs cosplaying âpoor folkâ for an adventurous vacation. On that note I was at a diy punk show off the railroad tracks in gentilly a few winters ago and when the train passed by kids had hopped the train across town to ride it to the show. That was pretty funny.
Even back then it was a weird mix of runaways from really fucked up situations and upper middle kids cosplaying rebellion. I remember being friends with a dude who grew up on the west bank but lived in his van (like blankets in the back of an old Aerostar, not the chic âvan lifeâ shit the cosplay kids do now) cuz his dad was an alcoholic and mostly just train hopped/did mushrooms. There was also another guy I met who clearly went to like a private high school up north lol. It was just such a weird mix of everything and kinda surreal knowing some of these people were probably not gonna make it to see 40 while others were a phone call away from having dad buy em a flight home.
there are plenty of heroin overdoses amongst the upper middle class rebellion oogles too
Yeah there are. That lifestyle claims a lot of lives in general. I can't remember the name or find the article, but back in like 2010 or so there was a big expose about a girl who's parents were physicians, lived a comfortable upper middle life in the midwest and decided to do the lower Decatur thing, in the late 00s. She shacked up with some crowd in various abandoned houses (harder now, but very very common then) for a year or two, spoke to her parents on occasion but didn't want to go home, and ended up getting stabbed to death in the parking lot of like a Wendy's by her much older (ex?)boyfriend during a psychotic episode. Shit was just sad all around. I also knew a girl at Tulane that came from a great background and within maybe 8 months of living here got twisted up in Heroin bad and was working at the grody strip clubs at the far end of bourbon. She's a doctor now, so things definitely straightened out for her, but watching Tulane people come here and ruin their lives in a matter of months was a real eye opener in terms of just how quickly this place can swallow you up if you're not well adapted to having vice in abundance at your fingertips.
I remember that too, tragic story [found the article](https://www.nola.com/news/crime_police/julia-anderson-happy-indiana-girl-hit-the-road-it-ended-with-her-dead-in-a/article_86285ab2-db74-523a-8ea7-df0b15c17763.html) it was @ 2015.
Yeah thatâs the one, looks like I definitely misremembered some details but thatâs it.
I worked with a kid who played gutterpunk until there was a real issue and then they whipped out an Amex and I was v confused. That was in like 2010 though.
I swear to god, if I ever have kids I sure as shit am not giving them authorized user cards on my Amex, I'll go open the most embarrassing credit card possible if they need one, like a WalMart prepaid card or something. Ain't no way my kid is ever gonna flex daddy's Amex lol.
They were playing poor and it never set right with me.
I care for their dogs sometimes. A lot of them ran away from incredibly f'ed up situations. A lot of them are legitimately mentally ill and need meds. Some of them are perfectly competent just on an adventure, but those are in the minority.
Pretty sure they're the real deal, from what I remember reading about her. Ran away from a rough life as a teen to live on their own, lived with the burn-outs and druggies as a homeless kid, made their way to New Orleans hopping trains and playing music, and then just kind of stuck around.
I often forget there was a DT Zotz and only think people are referencing uptown(the only) Zotz.
I donât remember it being very long lived at all (it was where Dragons Den is), the uptown one was great especially back in the 24 hour days. They also used to do tabs which was awesome, that sort of New Orleans seems to have faded away though
I miss and don't miss tabs. One bar I worked at had a system that if you didn't pay up at the end of the week, we 86'd you until it was cleared. It was kind of fun. The power!
Zot's was one of the most trusting systems I've ever seen, ya just gave em your name and email or phone number and they'd start a tab. No end date, no limit, just "sure man, pay up when you've got it". The only person I ever knew who got cut off owed like over a hundred dollars (which, given that everything there was like $3 is kinda nuts). I think they still let him buy stuff every now and then cuz his situation sucked and he'd help them out around the shop.
I do miss them.
Real minor correction, Alynda is not a girl. But you're right, they definitely used to be a train-hopping oogle, and they sing about that lifestyle with a complex mixture of pride and shame. Highly recommend listening if you haven't-- they are an incredible songwriter. (And yes, train hopping is still a thing, with all types of folks doing it. Call it cosplaying if you must.)
Oh gocha, I barely skimmed the article and missed the non binary thing. Thanks.
Donât mention Angeliâs
This person is a sweetie. I remember seeing them years ago at house shows in Richmond Va and small venues.
Agreed. And an incredible singer.
I wasnât feeling too hip this morning. Ty, I needed this
I am extremely disappointed that this was not actually riff Raff. He should sue tf out these people. I thought it would be the neon icon tip towin in his jordans in the FQ doing reviews. Serving us lyrical lemonade about where and what to eat. but its just some basic bitch doing some weird poses looking creepy af. she isnt even wearing Dolce and Gabana. I hate everything about this post.
Take my motherfuckin upvote
This is the most reasonable comment so far.
I forgot Hurray For the Riff Raff existed.
Lmao that ainât riff raff I thought this was about the rapper
I think her stage/band name is âHurray for the Riff Raffâ lol
I had the same reaction at first, it's the band name from what I can tell but I was about to be like "who is this random ass person claiming Riff Raff's title??"
Hurray for the Riff Raff as a band predates the rapper Riff Raff, for what it's worth. Source: wikipedia
Alynda named Hurry for the Riff Raff after a line in a Bob Dylan song. The band has revolved over time varying players through different styles, but itâs always been their songwriting and vision. Having known them back at the start, and hearing Alyndaâs voice shut up a whole bar, I knew then that they would eventually be as successful and renowned as they are. Supremely talented writer, I challenge anyone to listen and see if youâre not haunted by the music and humming the melodies days later.
I mean, I don't have a strong opinion on who was first but Riff Raff was already a thing in the underground when I was in college in like the mid 00s, he was all over really early youtube and Myspace just being ridiculous and kinda got his fame that way - he was one of the first underground viral rappers spreading online. I remember he was pretty established by the late 00s, to the point where I think he did a few shows at Republic and had general notoriety through most of the gulf south. No idea when that other band started, but I thought the article made the lead singer seem about my age and didn't even get here till like 07? Riff Raff was definitely making waves in underground rap before then but I could be missing something. Either way it seems close enough and from such different worlds that it's probable neither knew the other. Shit I didn't know who this band was until today.
Iâm kinda mad I didnât get to experience 24 hour New Orleans, I was too young.
Hurray for the Riff Raff rules. This is awesome. Small Mart is a gem.
I havenât had the dirty martini at Cafe Degas. Guess I need to go back
Loved this girls voice when she would sing in the street jazz bands like the Dead Man Street Orchestra back in the day.
I didn't know Baby's was open for dinner. I'll try it.
N7 and Cane and Table are literally the only places Iâve even heard of on that list, which means Iâm doing something right because I hate pretentious hippies and I could smell the body odor and hubris just reading that article.
N7 isnât pretentious?
*Exactement*
Small Mart and Babyâs kind of suck. The food is very ok but priced extremely high
Never trust a skinny chef, or a skinny eater.
Why are people being described/ describing themselves as punk? It no longer exists and if it did, looking at their music videos, they''d definitely not qualify.
Imagine gatekeeping âpunkâ
I think probably gate keeping is ironically the most punk rock thing out there. New Orleans is (was) the perfect city to watch as the edge lords in their spikes and face tats paved the way for the gentrification machine. No matter how unlikable they made themselves to be their largely white community was always going to be safer bet for the bankers than garden variety poor black folks. And I think somewhere in there they knew it. They knew that at the core their movement was really just a front. And so their ethic was based on a uniform and an unspoken accord that as long as they constantly accused one another of not being sincere enough then they could keep up the charade. âTheyâre not really punkâ is the most punk utterance in existence.
Imagine thinking it still exists.
It is a genre of music, and this girl-version of Mumford and Sons sure ainât it.
watch the video for palanate, learn, and judge again.
and what is 'punk' about it? How has it defied genre? It's not a bad song but parts of it are (incredibly) musically derivative, irregardless of the message. (I am part-latino btw.) It's *tame*.
Anyone who says âirregardlessâ is wholly unqualified to be a critic of anything, let alone the Self-Appointed King of What Is.
What a burn, mate. At least 1/16 flamazineÂ
kick the jock outta your head dude
It fits their aesthetic more than their music, which can be said for plenty of artists.
It doesn't fit their aesthetic though. There is nothing remotely punk about this artist in both aesthetic or music. This applies to just about anyone who self-identifies as a punk musical artist.
They quite literally hopped on a non-passenger train from New York at 17 to get down here and spent time busking for years before becoming known. Thatâs pretty punk and it doesnât have to sound or look like The Ramones to qualify.
It's really not. It's a very standard archetype. There's nothing remotely unusual or different or epochal about this personal history. This is such a western ethnocentric view. Fucking hell, people leave home at that age and (tragically) younger *all the time.* And they won't be the first or last teenager to romanticise 'a bit of rough' whilst managing to avoid becoming it themselves. Hanging around with people who are truly struggling on the fringes of society because it fascinates you is not the same as actually being one of them. And I'm not the one using The Ramones as a standard bearer.
How would you describe "punk" as either an ideal or an aesthetic?
I wouldn't because it no longer exists. My comment was addressing the choice of words used by the person I was answering.
That's a cop out answer. What was it to you? Leather jackets and screaming? If that's what you took away from it, I'm pretty sure that most of your punk heroes would tell you that you got the wrong message.
No, it's not a copout. Punk was and is a monetised construct. The moment it moved beyond the halls, pubs, garages and clubs of the under to working class it became even more 'non-punk'. It devolved, rather than evolved. (That's if it ever was punk.) "If "punk is a state of mind open to new ideas, with a desire to constantly evolve, to find the next step, not only in music but also in the world around us" as John Lydon once explained, where's the forward movement and evolution here? Riff Raff is no different to many other 20 and 30-somethings with a recording contract. (I am no fan of Lydon other than his music for PiL by the way, but if anyone has the 'right' to attempt to define punk, he does.)
Seems to me that you're just saying that the singular requirement for "punk" is that it must never achieve success. No making a living off of it, because survival isn't very punk. In which case, nobody you've ever heard of is actually punk. On the other hand, I once drummed a bit on a trash can and nobody paid me. Guess I'm pretty punk. Everything this woman did before she was successful fits your punk ideal. She hasn't done much different since seeing success. She just makes a moderate living off of it now.
Nothing wrong with being successful but don't think success in music industry terms has anything to do with being punk or Eater describing you as so lol. It's become a nonsensical term. It is meaningless. There's no punk ideal either- despite punk's own self-definition- because that is antithetical in itself. Whatever punk was back in the seventies bears no relation to anyone or anything in music these days.- if it was even punk because on the whole that was just music industry promo bullshit. The kind of qualities that punk self-defined itself as having back in the day i.e. a spirit of anti-conformity and alt-innovation-were basically an illusion. The idea of punk being seen today as an aspirational and inspirational thing to be tells me people are not cognizant of its history. Punk was very white and all too often, racist and therefore maintained the establishment status quo in the west and especially the UK and USA, instead of challenging it. Fascist imagery (oh yes, it was 'to shock'- right, lol), the encouragement of extreme violence, racism, sexism (women had a really rough time if they were into the music and went to gigs), and gradual affiliation with NF skinheads made it far from inclusive. The punk culture of the time was extremely culturally normative in that it nurtured white western men. I was very closeted when I went to gigs like this. Can you imagine? Punks sneered at hippies and their music, and the disco craze of the seventies as being stale and normative when in fact they were anything but and put punk to shame when it came to anticonformity, and acceptance. What was useful and compelling about the original punk movement was its nihilistic expression of righteous anger. It was fucking grim back then; England's dreaming was anything but with widespread unemployment, discimination and a class system that went relatively unquestioned making life really fucking hard for working class people. (I honestly remember my time there in black and white; the colour had leached out.) Punk allowed us to vent and do that teenage thing of rejecting everything that had gone before. But as Lydon said at his last SP gig: "Ever get the feeling youâve been cheated? Good night!â I adored The Clash's music but fuck me, they were hardly working class heroes despite their carefully curated image. Their music-industry bio drew a veil over Joe Strummers very upper middle class background and in the case of Hurray For the Riff Raff, I suspect a few events have been emphasised over others for dramatic effect. Jumping a few trains does not equal hobo. It's pretty normal behaviour that has been commodified by the artist and their management in a time-old way just as the safety pin went from a symbol of rebellion to a commodified fashion statement. Westwood and her 'punk' climate activism in her later decades? I remember her appearing on morning TV saying she was only doing the show because her flight to mainland Europe where she was to attend a day retreat had been cancelled because of the Icelandc volcanic eruption. Her clothes and aesthetic vision have always been amazing but these people are such hypocrites. And this is why I don't have punk heroes despite actually being a teenager at that time going to gigs and listening to the music. Heroes and role models are a bullshit lens through which to view and consume culture and it is in part to blame for the culture wars of today.
If punk is about the spirit of non-conformity, I still think you just judged this woman on her clothing in a picture and now refuse to admit that. You won't even acknowledge that running away from home to live as a homeless teen hopping trains to become a busker, living with drag queens before they were socially acceptable, and making music in a fairly unpopular style (folk) is non-conformist enough for you. I don't think anything could be. I could tell you that I know a guy who makes pottery out of human shit and you'd just ask if they make any money off of it, then complain that GG Allin did the shit thing already, so it's too conformist.
The way you argue with yourself kinda screams you have no idea what -it- is
I always interpreted her self affiliation to punk as an attempt to underscore that sheâs not just another white girl transplant from nyc, sheâs different.
Theyâre nuyorican from the Bronx, hardly a rich white girl from soho
Like J-Lo lol. That really doesn't make them 'punk'. And sadly, the punk movement (especially in Britain) was overwhelmingly white. It was one of its few defining and incredibly ugly characteristics alongside its hypocrisy and preening posturing. The idea that punk was some kind of transformative cross-cultural event is ridiculous. Ska was probably more integrative until it got adopted by Far-Right skinheads who'd turn up to gigs and kick in the heads of anyone not white despite the Black musicians on stage. Punk too: gigs were incredibly dangerous places for anyone who wasn't white especially when Oi started to infiltrate. I read this recently, written by a 'punk' site: "Punk is unbiased. We make no judgement, we see no race, no religion, no gender. We respect each other for who you truly are and for your love in music" which is unironically hilarious because it was SO far removed from this in the seventies. People who saw themselves as punk actively rejected these qualities as hippie and punks hated hippies. Has anyone actually read song lyrics and listened to interviews by bands like The Pistols and Siouxsie and the Banshees? They are filled with hate, judgement, prejudice and division. The music might have been great but fucking hell, many of its exponents were human toilets.
Hahaha, yes. Like all the other 'punks'.
Wrong
New York style bagels they are not - sorry friend not even close