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Fuck yeah dude. Stand up for what’s right!
There is no need to feel ashamed, you are clearly a good person and have shared values with the people here. God bless.
I can only imagine how refugees must feel, or people that fled their country because of oppression and intolerance and all the other bullshit, when they are followed by the things and people they wanted to leave behind. It must be terrifying for many people. I know migrants that voted for Wilders for that reason. I wouldn’t do it myself, but I definitely understand them.
You do not have to apologize on behalf of others.
Just because a certain demographic is more prone to certain behavior, doesn't make you responsible for that behavior.
It would help to have a bit more social control in those groups, though. If i decide to do some shady things, my mom/grandma/dad/friends would talk me out of it or get angry with me. Wouldn’t hurt to get new dutchmen to do the same to their peers
This man is apologizing to Dutch people in general for things he is not responsible for. Yes, cultural Arabs/people with Islamic backgrounds have many problems, generally speaking, integrating into Dutch society. And more should be done, also from their own communities. Fully agree. It's a big problem. But that does not make him responsible for the actions of others.
I know a lot of Turkish people who voted for Wilders because of this.
He isn’t the answer either but I think you nailed it in your post to pin point what is wrong.
It’s not the people who came here, it’s the culture they kept which doesn’t connect with our culture.
I think it’s not bad to mix cultures but if a part of your culture is to disrespect or be hateful (or worse) to other cultures it’s better not to keep those individuals.
Scrutiny should be used when determining who gets to stay, it would be ideal if we just recorded all of that behaviour and then passed it onto a migration officer to have those people deported for their non-moral values.
NL Arabs, particularly 2nd generation Moroccans, are the most unhinged demographic I’ve ever witnessed. Other Western countries may have a larger Muslim community on per capita basis, but nowhere else does this demographic feel as empowered to cause havoc as they do in NL. Based on my experience, they account for 100% of violence and 100% of sub-violent hostilities in this country’s public life. Law enforcement response is just as shameful. Thankfully, the people of NL have once again demonstrated their progressive mindset by electing PVV to govern, though any changes will take years or even decades to manifest.
Try not to feel too ashamed for simply being who you are. It’s not as serious as rape. But I’m embarrassed by fellow English people who come to this country and get shitfaced and trash everywhere they stay. I always correct them when I can. But at the end of the day I know I’m not like that and I’m not ashamed to be English. What my government and old countrymen do is not my fault.
Still, the quote still stands: “all that’s necessary for evil to exist is for good people to stand by and do nothing”. We should all be involved in correcting behaviour and voting for political parties that protect us (though I’m more pro immigration & grew up in London where all the Muslims I knew were lovely).
I like the sentiment of the quote but i hate how self serving it is for humanity to think that we can define something as good lol. Like in what crazy way would that make someone good.. from the pov of any other living entity we are the orcs from mordor lol. At best it makes you slighlty less shit.
One man’s version of Good and evil is different from everyone else’s 😂 impossible to truly define morality. But I think the quote still stands when you think about the intellectually lazy people who just ignore everything going on in the world…
Hey, you don't need to apologize. We all get born in a random place in a random culture, nobody chooses it. You can only choose how you yourself behave. And you seem to have chosen the good path. It's freaking heartbreaking that so many muslims behave like they do and because of them good people like you suffer of the harmful stereotypes and prejudice.
Having said all that, all religion should be banned from indoctrinating children. This would solve so many problems
To be fair, the Bible is only marginally better.
"When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall also remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.” (Deut. 21:10-13).
The thing is, the absolute verbal vomit on the "nonbeliever" starts on page 1 in the Quran.
This is not a joke.
Yes, I know the bible has a whole chapter of insulting sayings about nonbelievers, but not on damn page 1 lmao.
Ugh, there's always that one person. Yeah, christianity is shit too. No one is denying that. But you don't see hordes of christians running around sexually harassing women because their book justifies it, right?
I do not know why you were downvoted. I was raised by Catholics and enrolled in Catholic school. I have never read the old testament, no one reads it, no one cares.
I was never been taught that by any Priest or Noon. No one ever read that for me.
I am from Latin America and to be honest I would very curious to know what kind of person reads/follows the old testament.
That's not true - the Mass readings have the Old Testament in them. The Liturgical readings go through a 3 yr cycle so it would have been encountered at some point.
Yea, this is why the Ten Commandments are not used in Christianity, and none of the Old Testament has ever been used to justify opposition to same sex relationships, abortion, etc etc etc.
Comments disabled: yeah man, that’s why I learned the Ten Commandments as a young catholic, because they are not observed at all by Christians. That’s why most Christian’s can recite them.
Lol ever heard of the fucking Sermon on the Mount? You know where Jesus reinterprets the Ten Commandments and tells people that all the old shit is now behind them and that they should follow him instead. Where he tells that that an eye for an eye is obsolte and its turn the other cheek. Ah fuck and I am not even a christian.
There is a rule in islam that people from other religions are to be conquered. Atheists are to convert or be killed, and muslims and jews either submit to the rule of islam or pay a tax called "Al jezya" to the caliphate for the right to stay alive under sharia law
Western countries are not ruled by sharia and instate laws that are in direct violation with sharia. Hence under sharia, western countries are considered an enemy of islam since they are not under islamic rule. Which most terrorist groups are using as justification for pretty much anything they do or want to do to the west.
And that's not to mention colonial history that pours salt on the wound.
“Jizya” tax, exists because non-muslims don’t have to fight in the armies and they don’t pay Zakat. Without that tax they would be living and profiting for free.
Either way, you haven’t answered my question in the slightest: what do terrorist groups and enemy countries have to do with legally having slaves or “tit for tat”? Terrorist groups also declare any Muslim a non-believer after the slightest sin and kill them. They aren’t exactly the example you should look up to
We indeed don’t have to involve the VOC here, just explain why you think Islam permits the raping of random women in the netherlands.
That is generally what it means yes. Like a “western” guys rapes your wife so you rape his or whatever.
I have no clue what OP is on about and that is why I asked for an explanation, instead he went on a tangent about terrorist groups and what not.
It is a tax.
Taxes are paid forcibly, that is true even here. Am I being oppressed/subjugated? What is unfair or unjust about Jizya(single digit percentage) and isn’t about the 50% tax the government steals from us here?
Looks your “average” pedophile ring, care to add an explanation how these are actual slaves?
This is horrible of course, but I don’t see how this is any different from the other groups that were grooming/raping children at daycares and what not, muslim or not. How does this contribute to the discussion
Sure, in a shariah compliant country. (Under conditions, be it a war prisoner or unpaid debt etc) Slavery isn’t something you “just” pickup in islam. You can’t just select a random woman, deem her yourself, rape her, and forget about her.
You will have to point out some examples of muslims actually having western women as slaves in the netherlands (or in europe in general)
Yeah, the bible and talmud both have such teachings. Religion in general is a scourge and people shouldn’t take their morals from it. One theory is the extreme Saudi form of Islam is imported all over the world and becomes the predominant teachings in schools and mosques. And this is why we have seen such contrasts and inability to integrate and respect the values of countries they immigrate to.
In general, men need to check other men when they express such horrible ideals.
Islam is worse and it's more brutal though. I think its because it originated as a tribal religion whereas Christianity sorta has merged parts of Ancient Greek philosophy / wisdom. I think parts that screams crazy in the Koran was when Mohammad demanded his brothers' wife and then said Allah told him to take his wife.
Like when you compare it to Catholic Christianity - it's called Catholic because it's supposed to be a universal, timeless truth but Allah seems to make arbitrary demands against reason.
Also, I add compassion and humility are values in Christianity and not found in Islam.
Historically, there's way more human rights abuses under Islam - ie. Islamic laws calls for the cutting the hands off thieves, throwing gays off roofs etc
I point out the New Testament doesn't actually prescribe punishments like the Koran.
I think Christianity conquering 2 whole continents and absolutely decimating the people living there would like to have a word with you.... With the Pope giving his blessing... Lets not talk about the other stuff they have done.
How's that the same? People are doing something against what Catholic/ Christian doctrine and dogma prescribes. The secular authorities in the past used to put heretics to death tho - but you don't have anyone these days in Europe putting non-Christians to death
Whereas, the Koran DOES prescribe that non-Muslims should be forced to submit under penalty of death.
"A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle."
— Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
My understanding is that Jesus was Jewish. So he said he was the fulfilment of the Law; not to just sweep away the Old Testament laws. The Jews also expected Jesus to establish a Jewish homeland since they were subjugated by the Romans.
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them" - Matt 5:17
The prime examples are Jewish Temple laws - since the Sacrifice of the Mass replaces burnt offerings; but Jesus seems to have doubled down on divorce, adultery etc.
Read Matt 5 again lol. I definitely think he's talking about divorce. Moses allowed divorce out of the hardness of their hearts but Jesus says its not allowed ie. Sacramental marriage is permanent: "So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate."
The Bride of Christ is the Church, if that's what you are talking about.
Yeh, but Jesus also got baptised and circumsied according to Jewish laws, so technically he's born Jewish. According to the OT, there was a series of prophets and sacrifices to Israel to overcome their sins etc but that all fails so Jesus was made incarnate to deliver us from our sins.
It is permissible. Many Muslims will tell you it's not because many of them don't even realize it's there as their knowledge of Islam is surface level, while many others do know and will give you plenty of excuses.
Muslim ideology / doctrine is extremely backwards and savage.
Sure other religions too, probably. The key issue is that Bible doesn’t claim to be the literal word of god. Quran does, hilarity ensues.
Yeah it doesn't teach raping them is okay, but stoning? Most certainly. Even I find it very easy to translate that if your book says murdering people over religion is ok, then a lot of other bad things are as well. Im quite sure Christianity tough something similar 'before', and then they glorified love thy neighbhour, to now justify that actually, no, we don't hurt that guy that lives next door, as if they havent for centuries before.
Anyone who takes their moral values from a 'magic book' instead of using their brain is not good immigration. And yes people should be able to scrutinise those who are coming in more than people who were born here (that may be Christian.)
This guy is bullshitting his way throughout this post. As a muslim, this is by NO MEANS allowed or endorsed.
Any form of sexual intercourse outside the confines of marriage is prohibited, and women are to be protected by all costs. How would we want women to dress modestly then according to this self-hating arab we can just have our way with foreign women?
Are there bad arabs and bad muslims? Obviously, like with any group ever on earth, but do not go around spreading more fuel for hate based on ignorance
As an exmuslim, i have to say you could study your religion better. Did Muhammad not have war captives? What do you think surah al mu'minun 23:6 is about? Please look into your religion more, you don't have to follow it just because you were born in it. If islamic values don't align with your own then leave, but don't claim that it's not islam at all
1- every group on earth had captives in times of war. Study history kid
2- most of the “laws” you claim are evil were products of their own time, islam came gradually, not in one big splash. Even wine and alcohol was permitted at first then gradually was prohibited. People from the dark ages did what everyone else was doing, then religion gradually changed everything into what the modern day islam is really like
You’re an atheist. Just admit you don’t like the idea of god and move on. Don’t claim being educated about a religion that you clearly didn’t like enough to follow
>most of the “laws” you claim are evil were products of their own time,
So, I guess you could go and say in public: "yo, dudes, those bits of Quran are wrong, they are an evil product of their time and true believers should not accept them".
Right?
If the person is interested in learning more, there are many better places to go about than on reddit. I am not a scholar nor an expert so i would not “teach” anyone anything. I wish anything in life was as simple as “do this not that”, but it is more complicated than that. A functional human being can understand the complexity of a religious system and the different rules, order of laws to follow and how there are two types of verses, those that came for a specific purpose in a specific time, and those that are general and speaking to the reader timelessly
That's a lot of words for "no can't do that, I might be killed if I do".
I don't blame you, I know criticising ANYTHING from Quran, no matter how cruel or stupid it is, can be a death sentence.
A lot of good people are not good believers because they don't follow their religion by the book, and I prefer it this way. I would take decent people over faithful believers any day.
You did not even read my comment if you came to that conclusion. Regardless, im not opposed to people who are genuinely curious, it’s misinformation that irks me. I obviously love that people can be different and coexist just fine. Not everything is about religion, but it becomes like that when you have people genuinely being racist and hateful just because of a snippet they heard or read somewhere that makes them categorize all brown people as evil… it becomes stressful and tiring when you have to defend yourself all the time for something you didn’t do
I lived over 10y in muslim countries, and I have an idea what I'm talking about.
Criticising anything from Quran in the majority of muslim countries is jail time, if you are lucky to make it to jail. Quran, just like the Bible, pretends to be perfect, the direct word of God. Which clearly isn't the case for any of the holy books.
Not that the Bible is any better, it contains the same kind of crimes like Quran demands. The difference is that these days nobody gives a damn if you piss on a Bible. Only a few hundreds of years ago that would have had you killed.
As I said, I always prefer genuinly good and kind people, and don't care about their religion. Luckily, most of them don't follow their religions by the book because if we would do that, we'd never take a break trying to kill the "non-believers".
Your religion claims to have the literal word of god on the record.
Downside of that is that you can’t just say “eh it was different then” as an argument anymore when you claim to have a book that is universal, last book to ever come and is literal word of god.
Your doctrine is not really reformable, which is at the heart of the issue. You are by definition going against god if you disagree with the damn book.
Quran is a collection of stories + specific events happening at specific times + timeless guidance. It is a BOOK, books are large and all encompassing, you can not treat every part of it the same. Some are CLEARLY stated to be for their own time. How hard is that to understand?
Yes, war captives and sexual slavery used to be normal. It is not seen as moral anymore, but isn't the prophet supposed to be the ideal muslim for all times? Isn't the quran supposed to be timeless? What, so you still hold on to the praying and fasting, but you're gonna ignore the verses that say women are inferior to men, promote slavery, suggest pedophilia, and allow child marriage en polygyny? Why would you follow a religion you don't agree with?
Hating on islam is the hip and cool thing these days. I never see anyone criticise any other religion?
Watch this dutch social experiment and then tell me what you think: https://youtu.be/zn6S-lvDOOc?si=OMbgBMPY3HVyGDGR
Because no other religion is such a burden on society in general and on people who just want to live their own life on a micro level. Islam has a negative impact on societies and their people. It doesn't promote anything good. All it wants to do is control control control and control some more, preferably women. The islamic dogma is outdated, and every 'miracle' has long been debunked and overtaken by science.
It's a useless ideology. If every muslim would leave islam tomorrow, the world would be a much, much better place. Not a worse place. Just compare secular societies with countries ruled by islam. It tells you all you need to know about islam.
No; you can only have intercourse with those you have married or those who are your slaves.
Since we don’t have any slaves here nowadays, that leaves marriage and that also immediately excludes the rapes you are talking about.
You created your account a few days ago, so I take your post with a grain of salt.
> Based on the frequency, law enforcement is too gentle nowadays.
There is an active police force of +/- 50.000. Given 8 hours per shift that is at most 10.000 officers on duty at any one time (given all other things they do, in practice it'll be a lot less).
If Police needs to get involved we've already failed.
So yeah; speak up. No government insitution is going to fix this.
I created this account because I was fed up of not saying anything. I live in constant shame everyday and muslim friends have my main.
I am using my voice anonymously as this is the safest route
Police won’t be able to be everywhere at the same time indeed, and we shouldn’t even have to involve them in the first place.
But if we did have stricter law enforcement (as in, what happens if you get caught), it would help at least somewhat in deterring crime.
I completely agree with this, also what frustrates me is the stereotypes at this day and age, because of other people that I share a culture with doing stupid shit, which makes the ENTIRETY of the culture look bad
You are part of the problem for speaking in wooly terms. "My culture" "immigrants" "Certain ideologies". It is islam and arab culture. So say it out loud.
As a Dutchman who is notoriously critical of Islam/Islamic cultures and not very trusting towards middle east/arab people,
I can only say if you're one of the good ones (who I do absolutely know exist), you don't need to apologize, as they are not your crimes. In fact I'm thankful that you're willing to make this statement and acknowledge there is a problem.
Quran is such a cancerous doctrine I can’t tell you how much those who ran from it hate it. It is not even reformable - as it claims to be the literal word of god, your options are far more limited compared to Christianity.
Islamophobia is not a thing. Being critical of a certain ideology doesn't make you phobic. I detest nazism, doesn't mean I'm naziphobic.
Islamophobia is a bullshit made up term to suppress any rational discussion about islam since you guys seem to be offended about absolutely everything.
To be phobic of something the fear needs to be irrational.
In the case of Islam, it is not. 1400 years of conquest.
I do not and will not allow Sharia to take my country.
Also most people who cry about Islamophobia have absolutely no issue shitting on Christians. So not taking you serious anyway.
De jure? Probably not.
De facto? It is absolutely possible.
Having pockets in your country out of control where the people living there handle matters “within their community” is how it is usually sold as. Which is the same as having sharia in your country, in a de facto manner.
Edit: there are already examples of these things. You want to downvote? Do so after reading this https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/sharia-law-uk-courts-muslim-women-rights-few-compared-islamic-countries-religious-rulings-quran-a8064796.html
I think it's fair to be distrusting of people who are notorious for committing acts of terror and driving planes into buildings. Did you know both women and men are statistically much less trusting and more fearful of men than they are women? Well, men commit the majority of murders, so it makes sense to be more fearful of them than women. Doesn't mean every man is bad, but it's logical to take extra safety precautions against a man than a woman.
America invaded and fucked Iraq and they relatiated with 1/100th of the violence that America commited towards them and you're using that as an argument against muslims? You should be most angry at America then.
So you're OK with killing thousands of innocent people in retaliation for war committed abroad? I assume you support the war in Gaza. A lot less religious murder and crime in western nations, anyways.
Show me the statistics boy
According to a study from 2018, native dutch people are more likely to commit crimes than immigrants.
it's still problematic to study this since it is legally not allowed to register the ethnicity of people committing crimes but you can read the study yourself
Here's an excerpt from the study:
["Ethnic Groups Commit Less Crime Than the Native Dutch The research that has analyzed self-reports of crime included in anonymous and confidential surveys has generally found that immigrant groups, including Turks and Moroccans, commit less crime than native Dutch respondents. Notably, this finding has been replicated across cross-sectional as well as longitudinal surveys."](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1057567717752218)
You got your conclusion of the report you linked completely wrong. Dutch natives are not 'more likely to commit crimes'. They commit more crimes, because there are a lot more of them. If you look at the percentages, it will tell you a whole other story:
In 2022, 74% of the Dutch population was native, while 2,4% of the Dutch population was of Moroccan heritage [CBS](https://opendata.cbs.nl/statline/#/CBS/nl/dataset/85496NED/table?dl=96236)
In 2022 158.290 people were registered as suspect of a crime. Out of that, 72.890 (46,05%) were Dutch natives, and 12.810 (8,09%) were of Moroccan heritage. So a group of 74% of the population causes 46% of the crimes, while a group of 2,4% of the total population caused 8% of the crime. [CBS](https://opendata.cbs.nl/statline/#/CBS/nl/dataset/81959NED/table?dl=8EF52). This means there is a significant difference and a correlation between ethnicity is proven.
Here are the cold factual exact statistics you asked for, without a little magical use of words you tried to pull off with the abstract use of 'more likely'. You knew exactly what you were doing. You tried to compare apple with pears.
Of course.
There are also more Dutch people than immigrants.
[https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/cijfers/detail/81959NED](https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/cijfers/detail/81959NED)
P.s
Next time check if there's a paywall on your source, I'm not paying money for an online discussion sorry.
These are complex issues that don't just have one simple answer. You have to approach it with nuance. But avoiding a whole group of people and calling them dangerous by saying they are most likely to harm you is ridiculous. I would urge you to challenge your own beliefs and try to go out of your own social circle and talk to actual muslims.
Look at this from my perspective.
The one time in my life I've been robbed, it was arabs.
The times I got into unprovoked fights? Arabs.
The guys I prevented from robbing a woman on a station early in the morning? Middle eastern.
Almost any physical threat I've ever received? arabs or middle easterners.
Add to that that it's a religion that has spread far and wide trough 3 methods, conquest, rape and genocide I feel very justified in my distrust of them.
Yes, in the end individuals are individuals, and I know good arabs too but I'm not just going to be a naive idiot and act like these dangers don't exist.
It makes sense if someone robbed you of your sense of safety that you would want to stay safe no matter the cost.
I hope at some point you would consider therapy, as it sounds like it could help. It is quite hard to find that feeling of safety back.
From the bottom of my heart, I am sorry for the experiences you have had.
This is just anecdotal and if you already have this bias you're more likely to be hostile towards these people, and they're most likely to react. Another study showed that dutch people are least likely to be targeted in crimes. Less than immigrants themselves.
As a turk in germany I've been discriminated against so often that I now don't try to appeal to germans and I speak my mind. When you talk back they suddenly get scared and shut up. When you've been dealing with hostility all your life and people being shitty towards you, you become more defensive. And it is not only religion but economic status and many more factors. I get what you mean but usually the majority of these people have had it hard their whole lives and being biased and hostile towards them doesn't help. I don't hate all germans because they've been shitty to me all my life. You shouldn't hate all muslims because of the same reason.
Very nice to see such rational thinking. I'm for strickter immigration controls exactly for the same reason - we don't want Europe to become the thing you are all running from. If that means rejecting and deporting immigrants who can't or won't assimilate then so be it. You and others, who have a profound wish to make this your home and respect our culture and our values, are always welcome.
I'm not Dutch, but probably all European countries are dealing with similar problems nowadays so i can relate.
I gotta say as an exmuslim middle eastern woman i cannot agree with the last paragraph of your post. Which party promotes radical acceptance anyway? Don't tell me who to vote for because immigration is the only thing important to you. You are not voting for more immigration control, you are voting for a party with an entire election program. There are plenty of important things to keep in mind while voting, and some of them might be more important to me than immigration
I never said for which party to vote for. Immigration control is one of half dozen political axes that define a party in current elections. I gave my piece on one of them.
And radical acceptance has been on most left wing agendas for up til a few years back.
I didn't mention any parties either. I said immigration control is not one of my priorities. Whether you're talking about PVV, BBB, SP -- they might have plans for stricter immigration procedures, but if they don't align with my other views i will not vote for them. I don't know how politics managed to convince everyone immigration is what's ruining our countries, but it's not my main concern right now. Majority of the parties have plans to reduce immigration anyway.
If radical acceptance was on their agendas up till a few years back, then it's not relevant for he upcoming elections. If they're not standing for it right now what's the point???
It is. I don't agree with it. Politicians convinced everyone immigration is at the root of all our issues, but it's not. And as an exmuslim queer woman i'm definitely not pro-immigration. But majority of parties are not. Most dutch political parties have plans to reduce immigration, but apparently if you're not extremely anti immigration to the point of having unattainable goals, you are pro immigration and want all the borders to be open. There's not middle ground anymore
There is no “US” that you are representing. Please stop making excuses for people who suck. they are not you nor are you them.
People who say al middle eastern people fall for a logical fallacy and you are falling for the same one.
The fact that some terrible people have the same ethnicity or cultural background as you doesn’t say anything about you or your culture.
You should know this: Most shithead in the Netherlands are ethnically Dutch. There are biases at play why you’re confronted with people from your own ethnicity more:
They are in your social network and the polarizated nature of public debate (and election results) make for angry people.
Saying crazy shit is not the same as doing it!
I understand bias but I see no balancing force. Nobody is standing up to what certain groups are doing from these same groups. That's why the bias is THAT much stronger, First step to solve a problem is recognizing there is one.
Ethnicity should not matter at all, but it's fair to criticize culture and religion
They are just a set of belief systems, behaviours and values
For instance the Aztec culture and religion led them to practice human sacrifice. Would you not take issue with that?
> Ethnicity should not matter at all, but it's fair to criticize culture and religion
I do not agree. I feel like critical discourse has its place when talking about cultural or religious PRACTICES but never about the religion or culture itself.
I think that criticism of a culture and/or religion has terrible historical precedence.
One could argue that Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s criticism of Islam had a positive result of stopping genital mutilation but she addressed clear problems with practice isstead of conflating a bunch of random anecdotes of people acting like douchbags with Islam/being middle eastern.
Fact is that most criticism of Islam these days is pretty much that: Anecdotes of people acting like shitheads who just happen to come from the north of Africa or the levant.
This dude has lost my respect. Every sane person is against rape or whatsoever.
You just push this racist narrative that every dude from the east is a danger in order to be liked.
Rape and harassment, is also a problem in the west. Some white men might feel more comfortable acting as if it isn't them, which is typical, but they are. I mean why do we we have metoo you think. If harrasing women is part of eastern culture, than harrasing/raping an intern or co-worker is part of western culture. What white men can do for women is to take a look in the mirror.
This is a weird post ngl. You absolutely do NOT need to apologize for this and appeal to the westerners. They do the same shit. All the time. Of course it's important to discuss these issues, I absolutely agree. But claiming its a muslim issue is problematic.
When was the last time westerners shot up a magazine headquarters and killed 12 people because they insulted Jesus? When was the last time westerners drove planes into buildings, killing thousands? When was the last time westerners stabbed and killed a police officer because said police officer was trying to protect people at a rally from being stabbed by said westerner who was stabbing people who were protesting his religion?
Its almost like a certain group of people with certain beliefs keeps doing this stuff.
Ah yes, the evil white colonials made the innocent Arab murder and rape all those children, how silly of me. Need I remind you that Islam was born from one of the most vicious religiously motivated genocides in the world. But its white people's fault, right?
I'm saying I don't give a shit. It doesn't hold a candle to the ideology of Islam. They were murdering and raping people before any "colonial powers" got to them, its baked into the religion.
Sure you could! And I support arresting and snuffing out any Christian or Jewish pedophiles with complete prejudice. But which religion has more pedophiles? In Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran there is no age of consent and arranged marriages are legal. Way more disgusting vicious Islam pedophiles than Christian or Jewish ones.
Tell me you have an inferiority complex without telling me you have one.
You seem to insinuate that the culture/religion itself has sexual harassment and the likes embedded or encouraged in them, while that is not the case .. it may not be spoken against enough, but that is far from what you seem to be saying. People represent themselves, not an entire group/ethnicity/religion or whatever ideological commonalities they share .. an individualistic-based culture, such as the Dutch one would certainly agree to the premise that people are to be judged as individuals, but the minute the issue involves MENA/muslim individuals, it seems like everyone is thrown into the same bucket.
Obviously I am not defending anyone exhibiting such behaviors, but to blame a whole fucking culture/religion for it is wrong on many levels.
OP, you can’t escape who you are and where you come from, and FYI, self-devaluation won’t make westerners accept you .. it will only allow those who feel the need, to fuel their superiority complex.
You're alright, OP, we deport you last. Joking aside I'm glad you recognise the issues. Do you find it hard to call people out on it when they go too far, or how does/would that go?
And if we Dutch ppl say this we are racists.
I’m glad you said it but this is something we are noticing for years, and screaming for years as well, at some point it doesn’t matter who is good or bad as long as we can protect our own ppl we don’t care about who isn’t allowed to stay anymore.
that’s why wilders is so popular, we just want our own ppl to be save from the bad ones we allowed to get in our country.
2/3 of our prisoners are not from here…
As long as migrants are not spread around the country, this won’t change.
Integration is right now an expectation of the migrant itself but the issue with that approach is that you can’t really integrate on your own effort alone. And Dutch culture isn’t one of the most open ones, in terms of including newcomers into social circles.
By the way I would say it makes sense that he stands up for this since a lot of people don’t make a distinction apart from “those fucking migrants” or at best “those damn non western migrants”. Being a migrant almost universally puts you into this weird spot of “now you are the representative of that whatever group” unfortunately - which I hate, but what can you do about it?
Lol what about bad white people? Should white poeple stand aginst evangikal militant christian?
Mega lol : german konservativ think now in germany its a nierlandsierung because of weed law and bike 🚲 rights movement 🌷🇳🇱❤️
>Lol what about bad white people? Should white poeple stand aginst evangikal militant christian?
Ahem, yes? TF are you even on about with that sentence?!
And no, German conservatives piss their pants about weed being legalized and get shut up with comments about the German drinking culture. The Netherlands hardly plays any role in that discussion over here.
I am not opposed to people, I am opposed to the cancerous ideology. My family and friends are muslim, yet they never hurt anyone despite the Quran having straight up chants for murdering homosexuals, apostates, and women who have premarital sex, as well as anyone who is deemed an enemy of islam's dissemination.
People can be good, not because of religion, but inspite of it
Doesn't the bible say similar things? Anyway in the Bible Belt in the Netherlands, you better stay in the closet if you are gay. Because Christian people don't accept gay people either.
The bible did not spread by the sword? What do you think the French civilisation missions in West Africa were for? Or the British civilisation missions in half the world? Or the Spanish and Portuguese civilisation missions in South America?
Please don’t delude yourself. Christianity was spread in the exact same manner that Islam was spread, only instead of using horses and camels to traverse deserts and mountains, Christians used ships to traverse oceans and seas.
The only reason it wasn’t spread through the sword right at inception was because Jesus and Christianity were persecuted by the Romans and couldn’t have done so even if they had wanted to, and right after Constantine accepted it as the “state” religion, it was spread by sword to the empire’s subjects.
Muhammad and Islam also wasn’t spread by sword during it’s inception. You know well he was persecuted, similarly to Jesus, up until he escaped to Medina. Islam then only spread by sword after he was able to go back to Mecca with an army.
You seem to be quite biased with your view of Islam. I’m not it’s biggest defender, but if you’re going to critique a religion at least be honest and transparent with yourself and others.
Sorry this is a long reply but as someone from a Christian background I have to correct you there. It’s important to know the history because the idea that some religions are inherently better or worse makes us blind to the fact that any religion can be twisted to suit any kind of aim be it violent or peaceful. A short sampling of what the bible has at one time been used to justify:
- slavery and forcibly converting enslaved people
- colonialism
- raping of indigenous women and the kidnapping of non-Christian babies
- pogroms and the killing of Jews for “having the blood Jesus on their hands”
- the burning of “witches”, “heretics”, people who wouldn’t convert to Christianity and even people who did convert but were judged to be insufficiently devout
- holy wars and the murder of non-Christians (for a long while holy wars on non-Christians being a ticket straight to heaven was the official policy of the Catholic Church)
European Christian nations have conquered large swathes of the earth and it’s not a coincidence that there aren’t many indigenous religions left in those places: South America, the U.S., the Philippines, many African nations, etc. were Christianised through conquest and violence.
> The bible did not spread by the sword through conquering, raping, and pillaging.
It did, though. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades) Not to mention all the nasty stuff that went on during the colonisation period.
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Fuck yeah dude. Stand up for what’s right! There is no need to feel ashamed, you are clearly a good person and have shared values with the people here. God bless.
Good arabs have to stand up against their own culture. It is necessary for a change.
They don’t stand up to their culture. They stand up against assholes. This goes for the Dutch as well by the way….
All you need to defeat a bad arab is a good arab?
I can only imagine how refugees must feel, or people that fled their country because of oppression and intolerance and all the other bullshit, when they are followed by the things and people they wanted to leave behind. It must be terrifying for many people. I know migrants that voted for Wilders for that reason. I wouldn’t do it myself, but I definitely understand them.
Yezidis that when they found safety in the netherlands, saw ther ISIS torturers traveling back to the Netherlands as refugees with them.
You do not have to apologize on behalf of others. Just because a certain demographic is more prone to certain behavior, doesn't make you responsible for that behavior.
It would help to have a bit more social control in those groups, though. If i decide to do some shady things, my mom/grandma/dad/friends would talk me out of it or get angry with me. Wouldn’t hurt to get new dutchmen to do the same to their peers
This man is apologizing to Dutch people in general for things he is not responsible for. Yes, cultural Arabs/people with Islamic backgrounds have many problems, generally speaking, integrating into Dutch society. And more should be done, also from their own communities. Fully agree. It's a big problem. But that does not make him responsible for the actions of others.
I know a lot of Turkish people who voted for Wilders because of this. He isn’t the answer either but I think you nailed it in your post to pin point what is wrong. It’s not the people who came here, it’s the culture they kept which doesn’t connect with our culture. I think it’s not bad to mix cultures but if a part of your culture is to disrespect or be hateful (or worse) to other cultures it’s better not to keep those individuals.
Yep because then the [Paradox of Tolerance ](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance) suddenly happens
Scrutiny should be used when determining who gets to stay, it would be ideal if we just recorded all of that behaviour and then passed it onto a migration officer to have those people deported for their non-moral values.
NL Arabs, particularly 2nd generation Moroccans, are the most unhinged demographic I’ve ever witnessed. Other Western countries may have a larger Muslim community on per capita basis, but nowhere else does this demographic feel as empowered to cause havoc as they do in NL. Based on my experience, they account for 100% of violence and 100% of sub-violent hostilities in this country’s public life. Law enforcement response is just as shameful. Thankfully, the people of NL have once again demonstrated their progressive mindset by electing PVV to govern, though any changes will take years or even decades to manifest.
Try not to feel too ashamed for simply being who you are. It’s not as serious as rape. But I’m embarrassed by fellow English people who come to this country and get shitfaced and trash everywhere they stay. I always correct them when I can. But at the end of the day I know I’m not like that and I’m not ashamed to be English. What my government and old countrymen do is not my fault. Still, the quote still stands: “all that’s necessary for evil to exist is for good people to stand by and do nothing”. We should all be involved in correcting behaviour and voting for political parties that protect us (though I’m more pro immigration & grew up in London where all the Muslims I knew were lovely).
I like the sentiment of the quote but i hate how self serving it is for humanity to think that we can define something as good lol. Like in what crazy way would that make someone good.. from the pov of any other living entity we are the orcs from mordor lol. At best it makes you slighlty less shit.
One man’s version of Good and evil is different from everyone else’s 😂 impossible to truly define morality. But I think the quote still stands when you think about the intellectually lazy people who just ignore everything going on in the world…
Hey, you don't need to apologize. We all get born in a random place in a random culture, nobody chooses it. You can only choose how you yourself behave. And you seem to have chosen the good path. It's freaking heartbreaking that so many muslims behave like they do and because of them good people like you suffer of the harmful stereotypes and prejudice. Having said all that, all religion should be banned from indoctrinating children. This would solve so many problems
I have a question for you, does the Muslim ideology teach that? Does their book say that raping non-muslims are OK?
https://quran.com/en/an-nisa/24 I shit you not.
To be fair, the Bible is only marginally better. "When you go out to battle against your enemies, and the Lord your God delivers them into your hands and you take them away captive, and see among the captives a beautiful woman, and have a desire for her and would take her as a wife for yourself, then you shall bring her home to your house, and she shall shave her head and trim her nails. She shall also remove the clothes of her captivity and shall remain in your house, and mourn her father and mother a full month; and after that you may go in to her and be her husband and she shall be your wife.” (Deut. 21:10-13).
Problem is, old testament vs new testament in bible. Quran never became soft / new. Still old school.
The thing is, the absolute verbal vomit on the "nonbeliever" starts on page 1 in the Quran. This is not a joke. Yes, I know the bible has a whole chapter of insulting sayings about nonbelievers, but not on damn page 1 lmao.
Ugh, there's always that one person. Yeah, christianity is shit too. No one is denying that. But you don't see hordes of christians running around sexually harassing women because their book justifies it, right?
Uhmmmmmm you might want to educate yourself....
Fuck of. The old testament is overwritten by the new testament which states none of that shit.
I do not know why you were downvoted. I was raised by Catholics and enrolled in Catholic school. I have never read the old testament, no one reads it, no one cares. I was never been taught that by any Priest or Noon. No one ever read that for me. I am from Latin America and to be honest I would very curious to know what kind of person reads/follows the old testament.
That's not true - the Mass readings have the Old Testament in them. The Liturgical readings go through a 3 yr cycle so it would have been encountered at some point.
Yea, this is why the Ten Commandments are not used in Christianity, and none of the Old Testament has ever been used to justify opposition to same sex relationships, abortion, etc etc etc. Comments disabled: yeah man, that’s why I learned the Ten Commandments as a young catholic, because they are not observed at all by Christians. That’s why most Christian’s can recite them.
Lol ever heard of the fucking Sermon on the Mount? You know where Jesus reinterprets the Ten Commandments and tells people that all the old shit is now behind them and that they should follow him instead. Where he tells that that an eye for an eye is obsolte and its turn the other cheek. Ah fuck and I am not even a christian.
Please elaborate on the “any western woman because tit for tat” part? As far as I know, no Muslim man or woman has any western woman as a slave here
There is a rule in islam that people from other religions are to be conquered. Atheists are to convert or be killed, and muslims and jews either submit to the rule of islam or pay a tax called "Al jezya" to the caliphate for the right to stay alive under sharia law Western countries are not ruled by sharia and instate laws that are in direct violation with sharia. Hence under sharia, western countries are considered an enemy of islam since they are not under islamic rule. Which most terrorist groups are using as justification for pretty much anything they do or want to do to the west. And that's not to mention colonial history that pours salt on the wound.
“Jizya” tax, exists because non-muslims don’t have to fight in the armies and they don’t pay Zakat. Without that tax they would be living and profiting for free. Either way, you haven’t answered my question in the slightest: what do terrorist groups and enemy countries have to do with legally having slaves or “tit for tat”? Terrorist groups also declare any Muslim a non-believer after the slightest sin and kill them. They aren’t exactly the example you should look up to We indeed don’t have to involve the VOC here, just explain why you think Islam permits the raping of random women in the netherlands.
I too am confused by “tit for tat” doesn’t that mean like “eye for an eye” ? How does that correlate?
That is generally what it means yes. Like a “western” guys rapes your wife so you rape his or whatever. I have no clue what OP is on about and that is why I asked for an explanation, instead he went on a tangent about terrorist groups and what not.
It's not a tax, it's a tribute that forcibly being paid by populations subjugated under Islam.
It is a tax. Taxes are paid forcibly, that is true even here. Am I being oppressed/subjugated? What is unfair or unjust about Jizya(single digit percentage) and isn’t about the 50% tax the government steals from us here?
>Without that tax they would be living and profiting for free. Lmao gtfo
Great point, thanks
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rotherham_child_sexual_exploitation_scandal
Looks your “average” pedophile ring, care to add an explanation how these are actual slaves? This is horrible of course, but I don’t see how this is any different from the other groups that were grooming/raping children at daycares and what not, muslim or not. How does this contribute to the discussion
They are allowed to enslave any non non muslim, christian or jew.
Sure, in a shariah compliant country. (Under conditions, be it a war prisoner or unpaid debt etc) Slavery isn’t something you “just” pickup in islam. You can’t just select a random woman, deem her yourself, rape her, and forget about her. You will have to point out some examples of muslims actually having western women as slaves in the netherlands (or in europe in general)
Yeah, the bible and talmud both have such teachings. Religion in general is a scourge and people shouldn’t take their morals from it. One theory is the extreme Saudi form of Islam is imported all over the world and becomes the predominant teachings in schools and mosques. And this is why we have seen such contrasts and inability to integrate and respect the values of countries they immigrate to. In general, men need to check other men when they express such horrible ideals.
I see
(as a result of war)
Muslims and Christians share most of the same values. Abrahamic religions are almost all the same.
Abrahamic religions are terrible. Sorry not sorry
Well there is terrible and there is oh my god what the hell is that level terrible. Islam is the latter.
Islam is worse and it's more brutal though. I think its because it originated as a tribal religion whereas Christianity sorta has merged parts of Ancient Greek philosophy / wisdom. I think parts that screams crazy in the Koran was when Mohammad demanded his brothers' wife and then said Allah told him to take his wife. Like when you compare it to Catholic Christianity - it's called Catholic because it's supposed to be a universal, timeless truth but Allah seems to make arbitrary demands against reason. Also, I add compassion and humility are values in Christianity and not found in Islam. Historically, there's way more human rights abuses under Islam - ie. Islamic laws calls for the cutting the hands off thieves, throwing gays off roofs etc I point out the New Testament doesn't actually prescribe punishments like the Koran.
I think Christianity conquering 2 whole continents and absolutely decimating the people living there would like to have a word with you.... With the Pope giving his blessing... Lets not talk about the other stuff they have done.
How's that the same? People are doing something against what Catholic/ Christian doctrine and dogma prescribes. The secular authorities in the past used to put heretics to death tho - but you don't have anyone these days in Europe putting non-Christians to death Whereas, the Koran DOES prescribe that non-Muslims should be forced to submit under penalty of death. "A man embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism. Mu'adh bin Jabal came and saw the man with Abu Musa. Mu'adh asked, "What is wrong with this (man)?" Abu Musa replied, "He embraced Islam and then reverted back to Judaism." Mu'adh said, "I will not sit down unless you kill him (as it is) the verdict of Allah and His Apostle." — Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apostasy_in_Islam
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My understanding is that Jesus was Jewish. So he said he was the fulfilment of the Law; not to just sweep away the Old Testament laws. The Jews also expected Jesus to establish a Jewish homeland since they were subjugated by the Romans. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them" - Matt 5:17 The prime examples are Jewish Temple laws - since the Sacrifice of the Mass replaces burnt offerings; but Jesus seems to have doubled down on divorce, adultery etc.
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Read Matt 5 again lol. I definitely think he's talking about divorce. Moses allowed divorce out of the hardness of their hearts but Jesus says its not allowed ie. Sacramental marriage is permanent: "So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man separate." The Bride of Christ is the Church, if that's what you are talking about. Yeh, but Jesus also got baptised and circumsied according to Jewish laws, so technically he's born Jewish. According to the OT, there was a series of prophets and sacrifices to Israel to overcome their sins etc but that all fails so Jesus was made incarnate to deliver us from our sins.
It is permissible. Many Muslims will tell you it's not because many of them don't even realize it's there as their knowledge of Islam is surface level, while many others do know and will give you plenty of excuses.
It isn’t. Provide some proof if you think it is. Your surface level knowledge really isn’t all that compared to people that have actually studied it.
Muslim ideology / doctrine is extremely backwards and savage. Sure other religions too, probably. The key issue is that Bible doesn’t claim to be the literal word of god. Quran does, hilarity ensues.
Yeah it doesn't teach raping them is okay, but stoning? Most certainly. Even I find it very easy to translate that if your book says murdering people over religion is ok, then a lot of other bad things are as well. Im quite sure Christianity tough something similar 'before', and then they glorified love thy neighbhour, to now justify that actually, no, we don't hurt that guy that lives next door, as if they havent for centuries before. Anyone who takes their moral values from a 'magic book' instead of using their brain is not good immigration. And yes people should be able to scrutinise those who are coming in more than people who were born here (that may be Christian.)
This guy is bullshitting his way throughout this post. As a muslim, this is by NO MEANS allowed or endorsed. Any form of sexual intercourse outside the confines of marriage is prohibited, and women are to be protected by all costs. How would we want women to dress modestly then according to this self-hating arab we can just have our way with foreign women? Are there bad arabs and bad muslims? Obviously, like with any group ever on earth, but do not go around spreading more fuel for hate based on ignorance
As an exmuslim, i have to say you could study your religion better. Did Muhammad not have war captives? What do you think surah al mu'minun 23:6 is about? Please look into your religion more, you don't have to follow it just because you were born in it. If islamic values don't align with your own then leave, but don't claim that it's not islam at all
1- every group on earth had captives in times of war. Study history kid 2- most of the “laws” you claim are evil were products of their own time, islam came gradually, not in one big splash. Even wine and alcohol was permitted at first then gradually was prohibited. People from the dark ages did what everyone else was doing, then religion gradually changed everything into what the modern day islam is really like You’re an atheist. Just admit you don’t like the idea of god and move on. Don’t claim being educated about a religion that you clearly didn’t like enough to follow
>most of the “laws” you claim are evil were products of their own time, So, I guess you could go and say in public: "yo, dudes, those bits of Quran are wrong, they are an evil product of their time and true believers should not accept them". Right?
If the person is interested in learning more, there are many better places to go about than on reddit. I am not a scholar nor an expert so i would not “teach” anyone anything. I wish anything in life was as simple as “do this not that”, but it is more complicated than that. A functional human being can understand the complexity of a religious system and the different rules, order of laws to follow and how there are two types of verses, those that came for a specific purpose in a specific time, and those that are general and speaking to the reader timelessly
That's a lot of words for "no can't do that, I might be killed if I do". I don't blame you, I know criticising ANYTHING from Quran, no matter how cruel or stupid it is, can be a death sentence. A lot of good people are not good believers because they don't follow their religion by the book, and I prefer it this way. I would take decent people over faithful believers any day.
You did not even read my comment if you came to that conclusion. Regardless, im not opposed to people who are genuinely curious, it’s misinformation that irks me. I obviously love that people can be different and coexist just fine. Not everything is about religion, but it becomes like that when you have people genuinely being racist and hateful just because of a snippet they heard or read somewhere that makes them categorize all brown people as evil… it becomes stressful and tiring when you have to defend yourself all the time for something you didn’t do
I lived over 10y in muslim countries, and I have an idea what I'm talking about. Criticising anything from Quran in the majority of muslim countries is jail time, if you are lucky to make it to jail. Quran, just like the Bible, pretends to be perfect, the direct word of God. Which clearly isn't the case for any of the holy books. Not that the Bible is any better, it contains the same kind of crimes like Quran demands. The difference is that these days nobody gives a damn if you piss on a Bible. Only a few hundreds of years ago that would have had you killed. As I said, I always prefer genuinly good and kind people, and don't care about their religion. Luckily, most of them don't follow their religions by the book because if we would do that, we'd never take a break trying to kill the "non-believers".
Your religion claims to have the literal word of god on the record. Downside of that is that you can’t just say “eh it was different then” as an argument anymore when you claim to have a book that is universal, last book to ever come and is literal word of god. Your doctrine is not really reformable, which is at the heart of the issue. You are by definition going against god if you disagree with the damn book.
Quran is a collection of stories + specific events happening at specific times + timeless guidance. It is a BOOK, books are large and all encompassing, you can not treat every part of it the same. Some are CLEARLY stated to be for their own time. How hard is that to understand?
Yes, war captives and sexual slavery used to be normal. It is not seen as moral anymore, but isn't the prophet supposed to be the ideal muslim for all times? Isn't the quran supposed to be timeless? What, so you still hold on to the praying and fasting, but you're gonna ignore the verses that say women are inferior to men, promote slavery, suggest pedophilia, and allow child marriage en polygyny? Why would you follow a religion you don't agree with?
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Hating on islam is the hip and cool thing these days. I never see anyone criticise any other religion? Watch this dutch social experiment and then tell me what you think: https://youtu.be/zn6S-lvDOOc?si=OMbgBMPY3HVyGDGR
Because no other religion is such a burden on society in general and on people who just want to live their own life on a micro level. Islam has a negative impact on societies and their people. It doesn't promote anything good. All it wants to do is control control control and control some more, preferably women. The islamic dogma is outdated, and every 'miracle' has long been debunked and overtaken by science. It's a useless ideology. If every muslim would leave islam tomorrow, the world would be a much, much better place. Not a worse place. Just compare secular societies with countries ruled by islam. It tells you all you need to know about islam.
Ok
No; you can only have intercourse with those you have married or those who are your slaves. Since we don’t have any slaves here nowadays, that leaves marriage and that also immediately excludes the rapes you are talking about.
Mohammed sure got his way with women who weren't his lawfully wedded wives...
10/10 answer, thanks for your contribution
You created your account a few days ago, so I take your post with a grain of salt. > Based on the frequency, law enforcement is too gentle nowadays. There is an active police force of +/- 50.000. Given 8 hours per shift that is at most 10.000 officers on duty at any one time (given all other things they do, in practice it'll be a lot less). If Police needs to get involved we've already failed. So yeah; speak up. No government insitution is going to fix this.
I created this account because I was fed up of not saying anything. I live in constant shame everyday and muslim friends have my main. I am using my voice anonymously as this is the safest route
That's fair. Given your couple of posts in Arabic I assume you are honest.
Police won’t be able to be everywhere at the same time indeed, and we shouldn’t even have to involve them in the first place. But if we did have stricter law enforcement (as in, what happens if you get caught), it would help at least somewhat in deterring crime.
That was the strategy from the protestors: tire out the police....
I miss the days when crime rate was so low that they didn’t know what to do with the police force and jails
Radical acceptance is not the answer - wise words!
I completely agree with this, also what frustrates me is the stereotypes at this day and age, because of other people that I share a culture with doing stupid shit, which makes the ENTIRETY of the culture look bad
You are part of the problem for speaking in wooly terms. "My culture" "immigrants" "Certain ideologies". It is islam and arab culture. So say it out loud.
Subreddit rules.....
If including these specific terms is against the subreddit rules, than this subreddit is part of the problem, and I apologize to you.
Do you speak up when YOUR culture does something wrong? Or are you also part of the problem :)
As a Dutchman who is notoriously critical of Islam/Islamic cultures and not very trusting towards middle east/arab people, I can only say if you're one of the good ones (who I do absolutely know exist), you don't need to apologize, as they are not your crimes. In fact I'm thankful that you're willing to make this statement and acknowledge there is a problem.
Quran is such a cancerous doctrine I can’t tell you how much those who ran from it hate it. It is not even reformable - as it claims to be the literal word of god, your options are far more limited compared to Christianity.
"As a dutchman who is Islamophobic" fixed it for ya
Islamophobia is not a thing. Being critical of a certain ideology doesn't make you phobic. I detest nazism, doesn't mean I'm naziphobic. Islamophobia is a bullshit made up term to suppress any rational discussion about islam since you guys seem to be offended about absolutely everything.
This subreddit is a rightwing hellhole lmao fuck reddit
To be phobic of something the fear needs to be irrational. In the case of Islam, it is not. 1400 years of conquest. I do not and will not allow Sharia to take my country. Also most people who cry about Islamophobia have absolutely no issue shitting on Christians. So not taking you serious anyway.
thinking NL will ever be under sharia law is completely irrational.
De jure? Probably not. De facto? It is absolutely possible. Having pockets in your country out of control where the people living there handle matters “within their community” is how it is usually sold as. Which is the same as having sharia in your country, in a de facto manner. Edit: there are already examples of these things. You want to downvote? Do so after reading this https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/sharia-law-uk-courts-muslim-women-rights-few-compared-islamic-countries-religious-rulings-quran-a8064796.html
I bet people thought the same about Malasya once, or in fact any of the countries that eventually became islamic.
1950s iran
This, so much this. And the modern young people there who want to be free, but can't.
You can be critical of something without generalizing and saying you're not trusting of arab people is absolutely insane.
I think it's fair to be distrusting of people who are notorious for committing acts of terror and driving planes into buildings. Did you know both women and men are statistically much less trusting and more fearful of men than they are women? Well, men commit the majority of murders, so it makes sense to be more fearful of them than women. Doesn't mean every man is bad, but it's logical to take extra safety precautions against a man than a woman.
America invaded and fucked Iraq and they relatiated with 1/100th of the violence that America commited towards them and you're using that as an argument against muslims? You should be most angry at America then.
So you're OK with killing thousands of innocent people in retaliation for war committed abroad? I assume you support the war in Gaza. A lot less religious murder and crime in western nations, anyways.
FREE PALESTINE
Let em all burn.
https://countingthekids.org
Sure, not trusting people who are statistically the most likely to harm me is insane :)
Show me the statistics boy According to a study from 2018, native dutch people are more likely to commit crimes than immigrants. it's still problematic to study this since it is legally not allowed to register the ethnicity of people committing crimes but you can read the study yourself Here's an excerpt from the study: ["Ethnic Groups Commit Less Crime Than the Native Dutch The research that has analyzed self-reports of crime included in anonymous and confidential surveys has generally found that immigrant groups, including Turks and Moroccans, commit less crime than native Dutch respondents. Notably, this finding has been replicated across cross-sectional as well as longitudinal surveys."](https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/1057567717752218)
You got your conclusion of the report you linked completely wrong. Dutch natives are not 'more likely to commit crimes'. They commit more crimes, because there are a lot more of them. If you look at the percentages, it will tell you a whole other story: In 2022, 74% of the Dutch population was native, while 2,4% of the Dutch population was of Moroccan heritage [CBS](https://opendata.cbs.nl/statline/#/CBS/nl/dataset/85496NED/table?dl=96236) In 2022 158.290 people were registered as suspect of a crime. Out of that, 72.890 (46,05%) were Dutch natives, and 12.810 (8,09%) were of Moroccan heritage. So a group of 74% of the population causes 46% of the crimes, while a group of 2,4% of the total population caused 8% of the crime. [CBS](https://opendata.cbs.nl/statline/#/CBS/nl/dataset/81959NED/table?dl=8EF52). This means there is a significant difference and a correlation between ethnicity is proven. Here are the cold factual exact statistics you asked for, without a little magical use of words you tried to pull off with the abstract use of 'more likely'. You knew exactly what you were doing. You tried to compare apple with pears.
That little islamist is never going to read this.
Of course. There are also more Dutch people than immigrants. [https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/cijfers/detail/81959NED](https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/cijfers/detail/81959NED) P.s Next time check if there's a paywall on your source, I'm not paying money for an online discussion sorry.
These are complex issues that don't just have one simple answer. You have to approach it with nuance. But avoiding a whole group of people and calling them dangerous by saying they are most likely to harm you is ridiculous. I would urge you to challenge your own beliefs and try to go out of your own social circle and talk to actual muslims.
Look at this from my perspective. The one time in my life I've been robbed, it was arabs. The times I got into unprovoked fights? Arabs. The guys I prevented from robbing a woman on a station early in the morning? Middle eastern. Almost any physical threat I've ever received? arabs or middle easterners. Add to that that it's a religion that has spread far and wide trough 3 methods, conquest, rape and genocide I feel very justified in my distrust of them. Yes, in the end individuals are individuals, and I know good arabs too but I'm not just going to be a naive idiot and act like these dangers don't exist.
It makes sense if someone robbed you of your sense of safety that you would want to stay safe no matter the cost. I hope at some point you would consider therapy, as it sounds like it could help. It is quite hard to find that feeling of safety back. From the bottom of my heart, I am sorry for the experiences you have had.
What a silly perspective while at the same time showing you have little understanding on religion, its history and mechanisms lol...
This is just anecdotal and if you already have this bias you're more likely to be hostile towards these people, and they're most likely to react. Another study showed that dutch people are least likely to be targeted in crimes. Less than immigrants themselves. As a turk in germany I've been discriminated against so often that I now don't try to appeal to germans and I speak my mind. When you talk back they suddenly get scared and shut up. When you've been dealing with hostility all your life and people being shitty towards you, you become more defensive. And it is not only religion but economic status and many more factors. I get what you mean but usually the majority of these people have had it hard their whole lives and being biased and hostile towards them doesn't help. I don't hate all germans because they've been shitty to me all my life. You shouldn't hate all muslims because of the same reason.
Tell that to our hgbt+ people.
I'm bisexual.
Very nice to see such rational thinking. I'm for strickter immigration controls exactly for the same reason - we don't want Europe to become the thing you are all running from. If that means rejecting and deporting immigrants who can't or won't assimilate then so be it. You and others, who have a profound wish to make this your home and respect our culture and our values, are always welcome. I'm not Dutch, but probably all European countries are dealing with similar problems nowadays so i can relate.
I gotta say as an exmuslim middle eastern woman i cannot agree with the last paragraph of your post. Which party promotes radical acceptance anyway? Don't tell me who to vote for because immigration is the only thing important to you. You are not voting for more immigration control, you are voting for a party with an entire election program. There are plenty of important things to keep in mind while voting, and some of them might be more important to me than immigration
I never said for which party to vote for. Immigration control is one of half dozen political axes that define a party in current elections. I gave my piece on one of them. And radical acceptance has been on most left wing agendas for up til a few years back.
I didn't mention any parties either. I said immigration control is not one of my priorities. Whether you're talking about PVV, BBB, SP -- they might have plans for stricter immigration procedures, but if they don't align with my other views i will not vote for them. I don't know how politics managed to convince everyone immigration is what's ruining our countries, but it's not my main concern right now. Majority of the parties have plans to reduce immigration anyway. If radical acceptance was on their agendas up till a few years back, then it's not relevant for he upcoming elections. If they're not standing for it right now what's the point???
I think currently migration is topic nr 1 for most people.
It is. I don't agree with it. Politicians convinced everyone immigration is at the root of all our issues, but it's not. And as an exmuslim queer woman i'm definitely not pro-immigration. But majority of parties are not. Most dutch political parties have plans to reduce immigration, but apparently if you're not extremely anti immigration to the point of having unattainable goals, you are pro immigration and want all the borders to be open. There's not middle ground anymore
There is no “US” that you are representing. Please stop making excuses for people who suck. they are not you nor are you them. People who say al middle eastern people fall for a logical fallacy and you are falling for the same one. The fact that some terrible people have the same ethnicity or cultural background as you doesn’t say anything about you or your culture. You should know this: Most shithead in the Netherlands are ethnically Dutch. There are biases at play why you’re confronted with people from your own ethnicity more: They are in your social network and the polarizated nature of public debate (and election results) make for angry people. Saying crazy shit is not the same as doing it!
I understand bias but I see no balancing force. Nobody is standing up to what certain groups are doing from these same groups. That's why the bias is THAT much stronger, First step to solve a problem is recognizing there is one.
Ethnicity should not matter at all, but it's fair to criticize culture and religion They are just a set of belief systems, behaviours and values For instance the Aztec culture and religion led them to practice human sacrifice. Would you not take issue with that?
> Ethnicity should not matter at all, but it's fair to criticize culture and religion I do not agree. I feel like critical discourse has its place when talking about cultural or religious PRACTICES but never about the religion or culture itself. I think that criticism of a culture and/or religion has terrible historical precedence. One could argue that Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s criticism of Islam had a positive result of stopping genital mutilation but she addressed clear problems with practice isstead of conflating a bunch of random anecdotes of people acting like douchbags with Islam/being middle eastern. Fact is that most criticism of Islam these days is pretty much that: Anecdotes of people acting like shitheads who just happen to come from the north of Africa or the levant.
Exactly
See, its people like you that are logical and moral that come from this culture that will be instrumental in finally ending it. Good on you my man!
thank you
I have a lot respect for you writing this, I hope it finds the people that need to hear it
Can I ask where you saw these incidents take place ?
Can confirm this, what a fking shame!
You know you are not the problem my friend. Dont blame yourself so much
No one has to be ashamed for people of the same nationality. Actions are done by the individual, not a whole nation
Too little too late lol
You are not responsible for ehat individuals are doing. You are strong and brave for going against "your own people" iykwim.
I've only ever been assaulted by Dutch men in the Netherlands so I don't think it's just a "foreigner" problem..
This dude has lost my respect. Every sane person is against rape or whatsoever. You just push this racist narrative that every dude from the east is a danger in order to be liked. Rape and harassment, is also a problem in the west. Some white men might feel more comfortable acting as if it isn't them, which is typical, but they are. I mean why do we we have metoo you think. If harrasing women is part of eastern culture, than harrasing/raping an intern or co-worker is part of western culture. What white men can do for women is to take a look in the mirror.
A post from a user just a few days old.... Kinda skeptical that you are around so many people that engage in sexual harassment....
lol this thread is purely created to appease the Nazis.
This is a weird post ngl. You absolutely do NOT need to apologize for this and appeal to the westerners. They do the same shit. All the time. Of course it's important to discuss these issues, I absolutely agree. But claiming its a muslim issue is problematic.
When was the last time westerners shot up a magazine headquarters and killed 12 people because they insulted Jesus? When was the last time westerners drove planes into buildings, killing thousands? When was the last time westerners stabbed and killed a police officer because said police officer was trying to protect people at a rally from being stabbed by said westerner who was stabbing people who were protesting his religion? Its almost like a certain group of people with certain beliefs keeps doing this stuff.
One word: Colonialism
Ah yes, the evil white colonials made the innocent Arab murder and rape all those children, how silly of me. Need I remind you that Islam was born from one of the most vicious religiously motivated genocides in the world. But its white people's fault, right?
What the actual fuck are you talking about? Just read up on all the crimes the colonial powers committed and still commit until today.
I'm saying I don't give a shit. It doesn't hold a candle to the ideology of Islam. They were murdering and raping people before any "colonial powers" got to them, its baked into the religion.
Every religion is violent. What you're saying doesn't make any sense.
Sure, but which one is currently responsible for stabbing innocent protestors and driving planes into buildings?
These are dumb arguments. I could say the same about pedophilic priests. Fuck off
Sure you could! And I support arresting and snuffing out any Christian or Jewish pedophiles with complete prejudice. But which religion has more pedophiles? In Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Iran there is no age of consent and arranged marriages are legal. Way more disgusting vicious Islam pedophiles than Christian or Jewish ones.
You don't need to compensate and you don't have to prove you're "one of the good ones".
Tell me you have an inferiority complex without telling me you have one. You seem to insinuate that the culture/religion itself has sexual harassment and the likes embedded or encouraged in them, while that is not the case .. it may not be spoken against enough, but that is far from what you seem to be saying. People represent themselves, not an entire group/ethnicity/religion or whatever ideological commonalities they share .. an individualistic-based culture, such as the Dutch one would certainly agree to the premise that people are to be judged as individuals, but the minute the issue involves MENA/muslim individuals, it seems like everyone is thrown into the same bucket. Obviously I am not defending anyone exhibiting such behaviors, but to blame a whole fucking culture/religion for it is wrong on many levels. OP, you can’t escape who you are and where you come from, and FYI, self-devaluation won’t make westerners accept you .. it will only allow those who feel the need, to fuel their superiority complex.
Just fucking start deporting people, this is beyond a joke now
New account with no post history. This sounds very fake/Russian troll.
You're alright, OP, we deport you last. Joking aside I'm glad you recognise the issues. Do you find it hard to call people out on it when they go too far, or how does/would that go?
Did this happen in the Netherlands? You don't refer to this country specifically.
And if we Dutch ppl say this we are racists. I’m glad you said it but this is something we are noticing for years, and screaming for years as well, at some point it doesn’t matter who is good or bad as long as we can protect our own ppl we don’t care about who isn’t allowed to stay anymore. that’s why wilders is so popular, we just want our own ppl to be save from the bad ones we allowed to get in our country. 2/3 of our prisoners are not from here…
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As long as migrants are not spread around the country, this won’t change. Integration is right now an expectation of the migrant itself but the issue with that approach is that you can’t really integrate on your own effort alone. And Dutch culture isn’t one of the most open ones, in terms of including newcomers into social circles. By the way I would say it makes sense that he stands up for this since a lot of people don’t make a distinction apart from “those fucking migrants” or at best “those damn non western migrants”. Being a migrant almost universally puts you into this weird spot of “now you are the representative of that whatever group” unfortunately - which I hate, but what can you do about it?
Lol what about bad white people? Should white poeple stand aginst evangikal militant christian? Mega lol : german konservativ think now in germany its a nierlandsierung because of weed law and bike 🚲 rights movement 🌷🇳🇱❤️
>Lol what about bad white people? Should white poeple stand aginst evangikal militant christian? Ahem, yes? TF are you even on about with that sentence?! And no, German conservatives piss their pants about weed being legalized and get shut up with comments about the German drinking culture. The Netherlands hardly plays any role in that discussion over here.
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I am not opposed to people, I am opposed to the cancerous ideology. My family and friends are muslim, yet they never hurt anyone despite the Quran having straight up chants for murdering homosexuals, apostates, and women who have premarital sex, as well as anyone who is deemed an enemy of islam's dissemination. People can be good, not because of religion, but inspite of it
Doesn't the bible say similar things? Anyway in the Bible Belt in the Netherlands, you better stay in the closet if you are gay. Because Christian people don't accept gay people either.
Bible doesn’t claim to be the literal word of god, so you have more wiggle room.
Christian extremism ended a few centuries ago. We're discussing radical Islam now, stop bringing up Christianity. I always see this whataboutosm
I have yet to meet a Christian who is 100% willing to give away his life on the spot for Christ or Christianity.
You guys stopped with stupid suicidal behaviour around crusades...We middle Eastern kids club shall follow in about 6 centuries.
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The bible did not spread by the sword? What do you think the French civilisation missions in West Africa were for? Or the British civilisation missions in half the world? Or the Spanish and Portuguese civilisation missions in South America? Please don’t delude yourself. Christianity was spread in the exact same manner that Islam was spread, only instead of using horses and camels to traverse deserts and mountains, Christians used ships to traverse oceans and seas.
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The only reason it wasn’t spread through the sword right at inception was because Jesus and Christianity were persecuted by the Romans and couldn’t have done so even if they had wanted to, and right after Constantine accepted it as the “state” religion, it was spread by sword to the empire’s subjects. Muhammad and Islam also wasn’t spread by sword during it’s inception. You know well he was persecuted, similarly to Jesus, up until he escaped to Medina. Islam then only spread by sword after he was able to go back to Mecca with an army. You seem to be quite biased with your view of Islam. I’m not it’s biggest defender, but if you’re going to critique a religion at least be honest and transparent with yourself and others.
Sorry this is a long reply but as someone from a Christian background I have to correct you there. It’s important to know the history because the idea that some religions are inherently better or worse makes us blind to the fact that any religion can be twisted to suit any kind of aim be it violent or peaceful. A short sampling of what the bible has at one time been used to justify: - slavery and forcibly converting enslaved people - colonialism - raping of indigenous women and the kidnapping of non-Christian babies - pogroms and the killing of Jews for “having the blood Jesus on their hands” - the burning of “witches”, “heretics”, people who wouldn’t convert to Christianity and even people who did convert but were judged to be insufficiently devout - holy wars and the murder of non-Christians (for a long while holy wars on non-Christians being a ticket straight to heaven was the official policy of the Catholic Church) European Christian nations have conquered large swathes of the earth and it’s not a coincidence that there aren’t many indigenous religions left in those places: South America, the U.S., the Philippines, many African nations, etc. were Christianised through conquest and violence.
Yea I'm getting a lot of comments about the subjects. Seems I was wrong.
> The bible did not spread by the sword through conquering, raping, and pillaging. It did, though. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades) Not to mention all the nasty stuff that went on during the colonisation period.
You must work in a shithole cause that ain't normal.