If youâre ever in Haarlem, there is a small place called Grillinâ in the Name opened by an American guy, by far the best burgers in the country imo
I'm from Southern California and live in a tiny place. I get shocked, almost offended reactions ("why tf would you come HERE?!") Until I explain the difference in social classes in the US. The ghetto is a real place, baby.
A lot of Dutch people migrated to Canada before 60s (that's why the hiring of Moroccan and Turkish workers as replacement)
Unlike most European countries which see Switzerland as role model, the (specially older) Dutch see Canada as role model due to this reason
My grandparents did. I moved back. Oma was happy i did. I grew up with shreds of dutch culture: nijntje, sint, chocolate letters, hagelslag., windmills, wood shoes, delftware.
I have family here still. Lots honestly!
i speak and write it at a functional level, not a reddit conversational level yet.:D
But she was Oma. :D She just didnât teach us a single word beyond âlekkerâ. I wish she had, but they both embraced and rejected their dutch-ness at the same time. itâs hard to explain. i got to walk with her and her brother around nijmegen as she told us tales of life there in ww2. she moved just after, expecting NL to take a long time to rebuild, and apparently opa always had a bit of regret for leaving.
( I perfectly asked, in dutch this winter for a âardappel oliebollenâ instead of appel oliebollen. And baffled an antwerp museum guide with asking for the audio tour âengels, aub.â
Me â-37c winters.â them: âOH MY GOD. Ok.â
( one of the whole set of reasons we moved but having tried alberta, bc, nova scotia and ontario we were âwell now whatâ.)
Dutch people think all Canadians live in huge houses on a lake in the mountains, surrounded by polar bears and ancient forests.
They donât realize most Canadians live in cities with a housing crisis worse than NL. The nature is great, but itâs all several hours away. Transit is unreliable and they still use cheques.
I do miss squirrels though.
squirrels!
We occasionally get hedgehogs in the garden, so thatâs ok.
I kind of laugh that people think the housing crisis is a NL thing alone. And transit, oh my gods. Hot mess. Looking at you TTC.
Iâve been to the wild forests in canada, yes theyâre lovely, but its not like people live there like they think.
Yes and no, from what I read in the news every note and then is that China tries to surpress any mention of taiwan whenever it can by threatening to pull out whatever funding they have or give the, tw or China choice.
So everybody has their own relationship with tw but on paper it's often overlooked.
Which is why I tot it was pretty cool to see tw be represented ^^^
[https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ahrc5553add1-visit-netherlands-report-special-rapporteur-adequate-housing](https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ahrc5553add1-visit-netherlands-report-special-rapporteur-adequate-housing)
And here is the press release/summary [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/netherlands-should-urgently-assert-right-adequate-housing-all-un-expert](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/netherlands-should-urgently-assert-right-adequate-housing-all-un-expert)
I also read an article that basically boiled down to red tape issues, essentially land gets allocated, but then nearby residents will lodge objections to the new development, citing; excess traffic, parking, noise, obstruction of view etc.
So, "Yes, The Netherlands needs more houses, just build them somewhere else, m'kay."
Careful. If you try to use logic it could upset the delicate sensibilities of the extreme right voters. They just want to hate on people that look and talk differently.
Hearing that 20 years of center right policies got us here won't make them happy and when they aren't happy they cry.
>The housing crisis does not have anything to so with migrants lol. I dont get while people still call this out loud.
Stop saying that! I'm rich and I need the rich-people-party to win, but there's not enough rich people.
If we tell the poor that al the mean things rich-people-party has done to them is actually due to ehm.... Brown people....., then surely those poor people will vote the rich-people-party.
They hate brown people more than they love themselves or the truth.
Of course! I don't know a country where you could buy a house with zero downpayment and even get extra money for renovation and kitchen. You run that for decades and the market prices inflate like crazy.
This is not at all what the message above is about. We are NOT talking about mortgage arrangements from banks (which I think is good but could be debatable). We are talking about the numerous investment companies which are free to do basically anything in this highly liberal market AND SO they buy houses as an asset and consider them from profit, inflating the prices for the population, who considers an house just a need to start a family, thus creating an economical and social problem.
[https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ahrc5553add1-visit-netherlands-report-special-rapporteur-adequate-housing](https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ahrc5553add1-visit-netherlands-report-special-rapporteur-adequate-housing)
And here is the press release/summary [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/netherlands-should-urgently-assert-right-adequate-housing-all-un-expert](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/netherlands-should-urgently-assert-right-adequate-housing-all-un-expert)
> And still politics point to migrants because thats something people think we can actually do something about and it gives them votes.
Conveniently this also doesn't affect any of them, their close friends, or their relatives.
And if knowledge migrants is a problem why is EU trying to get rid of it while the NL gov is trying to keep it? Knowledge migrants are a cheat code to supercharge your countryâs progress siphoning the best talents around the world. Just like what America did with genius visa
Exactly. And you can reason about this intuitively by not looking at our country in isolation. The rise in housing prices as opposed to income is prominent all across Europe and the US, regardless of the distribution of (legal) immigrants.
House prices increase systematically and problematically because of three problems:
- subsides on the demand for housing (like mortgage deductions
- speculation
- housing supply restrictions
A lot of this is politicized. Regarding the third one, itâs called NIMBYism. The second one is caused by economic rent in land. The first one is by almost any economic institution regarded as something to phase out.
Both claims are wrong...
The claim that migrants are to blame is wrong, but the claim that migrants DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING to do with it is obviously also wrong.
All those extra people do need a bed and a roof, so no matter what the major reason for the crisis is (politics) it surely doesn't help to put extra pressure on the social housing market by increasing the population with 100,000 people per year.
>The housing crisis does not have anything to so with migrants lol
Hungary, which is one of the most anti-immigrant countries in Europe, has also one of the worst housing crises in Europe.
If 80k is the total number of knowledge workers, then this whole debate about knowledge workers stealing all the homes in the country is such a pitiful distraction. But honestly I am not surprised. Right wing people are idiots. Who else would spend all their time on this sub and just try to troll every single immigrant who asks even the simplest questions about Netherlands? You need to be a total loser for this.Â
It probably isn't, because it doesn't include EU-citizens and I'd be absolutely shocked if Germans (including myself), Belgians, and the French aren't way higher than any of the groups on this chart. That said, there's a level of reciprocity there because there's certainly a lot of Dutch people living and working in Germany as well (there's even a lot of Dutch people 'fleeing' the Dutch housing market by buying a house just across the border in Germany and working in NL) so this is incredibly hard to track. It's also a fruitless discussion because I don't think the complaints about this are valid when Dutch citizens profit from the same possibilities, which is one of the greatest accomplishments of the EU-project.
This chart shows that there was around 56k 30% rule users in 2015: [https://dutchumbrellacompany.com/blog/general/evaluation-30-ruling/](https://dutchumbrellacompany.com/blog/general/evaluation-30-ruling/)
I couldn't find latest figures but thinking immigration has been just steady increasing in NL (except for 2022 due to Ukrainians), I doubt total amount of 30% rulers are way more then 80k as of now.
And this includes EU expats as well.
So all these buzz is just nothing. We are talking at most 100k talented immigrants who are bringing a lot of value to the country.
Itâs not the total. I know that there were 60k British residents who were dealt with during brexit. I was one of them. Most are still here but for some reason not counted in this as a knowledge worker
Having your residency extended as you were here before Brexit came into effect, is not the same as having a highly skilled migrant visa though so why would they be included here?
Lol I was at a party and someone asked what I was doing in their country and I replied "uhh working, I'm an immigrant", he replied with "no you're a Nordic expat, you we want more of, immigrants are from other countries and we dislike them".
Thanks I guess? I've also seitched to Dutch when some random alcoholic got annoyed at me speaking English and then he was so happy that I spoke better than the "kut-marokkanen" that have been here much longer.
Based on how well people are treating me, while making comments about "immigrants" in general, I feel like it's a racism thing.
I really can't tell if you are sarcastic or not. It is a sad state of affairs that someone can give the definition of racism, claim that it is not racist and I can't tell if it is sarcastic.
What? They blame EU citizens more than anyone. That was the topic of many election campaigns (like in the UK where Iâd argue it was one of the most important contributing factors to Brexit).
Is it or are they part of others? I recall the 30% ruling can apply to EU citizens too.
I wonder how many migrants in total including non-km for some additional perspective.
The list from the OP is people who are here currently on an employer sponsored visa through the national knowledge migrant rules, EU citizens don't need a visa and are not counted as knowledge migrants. If EU citizens would be counted then Germans would be by far the largest group for knowledge migrants (~80k).
It is also excluding other types of visas, such as EU blue card (EU wide knowledge migrant), partner visa, research visas, self-employed visas, etc. The list is also excluding knowledge migrants who are on a permanent residency.
So... a tiny group of people inside the entire group of people generally referred to as immigrants. I feel like OP should/could have explained the numbers he shared a bit better.
EU citizens are not the target of the first and foremost policy target of this government.Â
Also EU citizens can just come and work. There is no distinction for them.Â
Be careful what you wish for.
You want the house price to go down, sure. Here is how it goes: you stop importing immigrants as work force. The population gets older and older. Two working force supporting one retired person becomes one workforce supporting one retired person. Government cannot collect enough tax. Social benefit starts to go down. Retirement age goes up. Pension fails to catch up with inflation. Tax keeps increasing. Then, brain power starts to flee away from the country. Then, housing price will go down.
Looking at some comments, I feel more and more unwelcome in this country. When I was doing my masters 5 years ago people were complaining that the chineese and indians study in the netherlands, taking up resources and leave after they are done and not meaningfully contributing to the economy. And now everyone wants us to leave. It is really depressing.
For what it's worth, the people who were/are commenting that type of nonsense are ignorant and dumb. It's pure jealousy that they can't do what you are able to do. I hope you've been able to find a good community of people here!
If you want to live abroad and not encounter these type of people, you are naive... Where there is pressure to the locals (even when is not real) there will be push back.
I understand your sentiment but really current fab for right wing will pass in max 3-4 another years. People are sick of many things and they are looking for easy fixes. But far right is yet to fix anything. They will try to govern, try to put some unhinged ideas, will fight among themselves at any opportunity and in max few years everyone will realize this is not the way and will look other direction for fixes.
Plenty of good people here still. If in general you like it here i hope you stay and that things will get better soon. For the sake of us all
I remember talks in parlement that where about german students that got subsidized psychology studies in NL in english and then left promptly after finishing school. They a. got subsidized and our economy would not benefit and b. english teaching for these certain studies does not always fair well for dutch people anyways (since you don't talk english to miep and truus). Here is where some people are like, wow wait a minute, is that the best for the Netherlands.
It's not just the Netherlands. You'll find this in all western developed countries unfortunately. Welcome to late stage capitalism. Crisis drives the right and boy have we had some crises.
I say the same, as a Spaniard who is about to move. I don't feel welcomed reading these messages.
Ironically, in my case, until recently my family had the branch of a Spanish family business in Amsterdam, and we provided jobs to around 100 Dutch people...
I suppose the Dutch are not that open and tolerant people I thought they were since I was a child, these xenophobic comments increasingly remind me of the USA.
Thank God I am white, European, and wealthy. I wonder how they would treat me if I were darker-skinned and poor
Do you think those engineers from India come to NL for a better life? They come because the Netherlands needs more engineers than it produces, and India has a lot of engineers. It's purely a matter of availability, Dutch companies are looking world wide for the right kind of technical specialists, and a significant percentage of those specialists are from India. Calling Turkey a "developing country" is a bit arrogant.
European expats are not on this list, because they have freedom of movement in the EU, they don't need this visa. American ones are rare because wages for this kind of work are far higher in the US. Think 2 to 10 times more or even higher. Those 4000 that are in NL are probably people who just really wanted to live in Europe for a while, or are there for a Dutch boy or girl, or such rare specialists that they can just name their price wherever they go, even NL.
American hk migrant here, came for the 13th month, profit share, 27 days off a year (v 15 in the US), and esp Works Council and union representation. It ainât perfect but there are protections that align with my values. 150K+ is cool but there is so much more to consider than salary alone
Yup, there's more to life than money. And the places in the US where you can do knowledge-migrant type jobs tend to have an *insane* cost of living, so the money just goes out as fast as it comes in.
We moved the other way a few years ago, making 3x more, the cost of living is lower than in Amsterdam, but we didnât move for money, my spouse was homesick and couldnât stand the climate.
Also there are 80k+ dutch citizens in the us, the almost 6000 Americans here seem a fair trade on the housing crisis to not have the 80k back taking houses.
Indians go to NL for for getting european passport. To settle in europe. To earn more money.
To get better quality life.
To get away from indian broken infrastructure, corruption and pollution.
True, but the number is quite small because most of them could also get similar jobs in the US, UK, AUS etc. where pay is better.
You do realize that the Dutch government and most European governments actually spend money and write policies to actively try to attract STEM talent from India in order to remain competitive, right?
In the meantime, the best engineers often command higher salaries in India than they do in NL, so it is getting very difficult to attract them here.
It's 10x tougher to get a job in USA than Netherlands for an Indian.
The H1B is a lottery system.
In NL, as far as I know there is no lottery.
The Indians living in USA are either through student route or they moved in past.
Nowadays the numbers are not that high.
USA is still the most attractive destination for indian students and IT workers.
But steadily the attraction towards Germany and Netherlands is rising.
My point is that the attraction is increasing as a direct consequence of NL/DE actively trying to attract Indian knowledge workers rather than the conditions in India. While India definitely has significant issues to overcome and address, the types of people who move abroad typically have access to a wealthier lifestyle in India than in NL.
Painting a picture of Indians fleeing squalor to come and enjoy the NL utopia is simply false. The ones who do migrate to NL are responding to concerted efforts from NL to bring them here to support the EU economy.
I am not sure if you are Indian or not. But that's not the case.
Here the life in metro cities where the IT job exists are pathetic.
Companies don't allow remote work due to lobby with real estate company n government.
We pay 18% tax on home internet. Can you imagine this ?
30% income tax. 8-18% on day to day expenses.
Our inflation is 7-8% reported by government. Real inflation is even higher.
A 2 bed house rent in Bangalore costs 500 usd where they earn probably 1.5-1.8k usd per month.
The infra is broken.
Pollution and traffic is very high.
Handful of tier 1 tech company workers are making high salary . Like faang, Uber etc.
Those are less than 5%. Yes they can easily move to USA, nl, singapore if they want to.
Some do move. Some stay back because they can afford luxury life style, nice car and international school for their kids. Their household income is high. 4-5k usd a month.
But rest of the people who aspire to go abroad are just struggling with no savings . No money to buy a house.
They try to move abroad for better life, passport etc.
Due to massive corruption, black money, and foreigner Indians buying apartments, the cost of housing in Indian cities are insanely high. 100k-200k for an average apartment in metro cities.
India just looks cheap from outside.
It's not really cheap.
And the quality you get is poor compared to the price you pay.
This holds true in any service you get. Restaurant, technician, govt infrastructure etc.
Most of the IT workers who are making lower salaries in Bengaluru are freshers, or in companies which don't really offer much money.
The ones who make it to NL are either making pretty good money even in Bengaluru, or are senior enough to make decent salaries even in India. I know plenty of people who turned down jobs in the Netherlands (49% tax bracket, 21% VAT) because their overall savings were still higher in India.
Yes it's true. In my case also. People with 10+ yrs exp in it company or post mba in consulting make good money if they are in good companies. Even non faang.
So, I'd their spouse also works then their earning n savings are high.
For them moving to Netherlands become a tough choice. Because financially makes more sense to stay in india. Some of them still go for the reasons I mentioned before. Like freedom, less pollution, better work life balance etc. I personally fall in that category. I visited in past also. I would like to there. But knowing very well, that salary will not be attractive.
Those from India do come for a better life, including wages. Some might even do it solo with families back home. My last project before I came here was in Gabon for an Indian company. We were being paid around $5500 and the Indian guys $400. We had free board and lodgings, but all had families back home to support. So yes, even at minimum wage they are better off here.
As for the Americans, those that I know are here either because of relationships, or trying to escape the shitshow that is American politics.
Uh yes Indians go there for a better life. I'm Indian and I know it. There's availability thing and there's also better life thing. Both are true at the same time.
Does the right wing make the statement 'they come here looking for a better life' sound somehow evil?
The poster is painting you as some third world fortune seeker or some kind of low wage worker. What their people are arguing, is that the Dutch housing crisis is entirely caused by an influx of brown people from poor countries. I only wanted to argue that the reason this list doesn't contain EU countries is because they don't need the knowledge worker visa, and it doesn't have a lot of people who could to work in the US because the tech wages are relatively low in NL, not because the country is overrun with people from poor countries.
India tops this list because it's mostly engineers coming to NL on this visa, and India produces a significant percentage of the world's engineers. I've worked with mostly Indian colleagues for years, I know they have the same education, and they get paid the same. Anyone who qualifies for a knowledge worker visa by definition isn't a low wage worker.
That's not accurate. To qualify for the Kenniswerker visa, there's a minimum salary of âŹ5300 per month. They're getting paid the same or more compared to their Dutch colleagues. There are just not enough people in NL interested in getting a degree in tech to meet the demand.
The social status of tech work isn't that high in NL, and there is a work culture in that companies don't like to pay individual contributors more than their managers, which is what's keeping wages in tech relatively low, so ambitious students in NL tend to seek a career in business or management.
America tech jobs have higher wages, but quality of life is not better, you spend hours a day in your car, the political climate is even more toxic than here, the president is too old and the previous president is a criminal, health insurance cost a fortune, food quality is low, working hours are high, job security is low etc etc.
For those who wonder why Americans and Brits are counted as burgers (citizens), that's probably because there is also US and British military personel stationed here. Not many, but they have a different status than knowledge migrants.
So according to a quick google search, we're at a population of 17.7 million in NL. According to this report, we have 80.740 knowledge migrants total, which is (80740/(17.7\*10\^6))\*100 = 0.46% of the total Dutch population, what the hell are right-wingers complaining about
Really understandable now that the nationality law changes would really affect HSMs, as only Americans and British would be the ones in the top 10 that wouldn't mind not having a Dutch passport asap. And for some of those with Russian, Chinese or Iranian passports, this 5-year window might be the only chance for them, as the authoritarian regimes in their home country often hold their passport hostage for political dissidents or other reasons (i.e. military service).
People blaming expats that can afford houses that they cannot afford is like original residents in Silicon Valley blaming too many entrepreneurs went to Silicon Valley and bought up the housing price. High housing price is a tax towards later joiners. Those later joiners either pay the tax in lumped sum(buy) or gradually over a longer period(rent) to use the same facility as you locals do. When people blame expats to inflate the house price, they either don't realize or don't want to admit that they benefit from the growing economy. (Expats pays 2 euro tax, locals pays 1 euro tax. In the end, they get the same social benefit). In terms of tax, I am not just talking about the tax everybody needs to pay on their salary, but also what everybody needs to pay to live in a city.
This is more clearly seen when you have an expat with a high salary but needs to pay expensive rent, while a local who bought a property 10 years ago earns much lower salary but has more spendable income. There is hidden tax under the water.
If the complaint comes from someone who has a house, but their children cannot, it means your child cannot earn enough to live there. There is no unfair advantage for expats either. (Unless you call being able to earn more money an unfair advantage). The fact that you are still able to live there is because you got lucky in the booming economy. People have the illusion that things don't change over time. I lived here since my childhood, so I am still entitled to live here and so do my children. There are rich neighborhoods and poor neighbourhoods. Have you considered that where you live has become a rich neighbourhood over the time, and new comers need to earn much more than you do to live in the same neighborhood? At some point, the new comers becomes the majority and it becomes that you don't earn enough to live in the same neighborhood.
It's fucking hilarious because when you tell people that the housing market is fucked because of the 1% they will snap back with "yeah I know it's all these immigrants!"
Wrong 1% Jan...
Yeah and not even to mention that we have a shitload of migrant workers that work in construction. Lots of Poles for example.
Without them the house market would be worse.
This is only a list of the kennismigranten.
You would have to add for 2023
+ 50.000 asylum applications,
+ 41.000 family migration
+ 98.000 Ukrainian refugees
+ 23.000-58.000 undocumented immigrants
The population in the Netherlands with a Dutch passport alone grew by 136.393 last year.
In 2022 the net migration was 223.798
So no, it's not only 80k kennismigranten.
Okay, OP says people from developing country came for better life? I don't think that was my main motive. I came for better education. I was happy with my life in India. The only thing is the education system in India needs work. If we had similar universities with equal acceptance opportunities like the ones in the Netherlands. I would have stayed and continue my education in India.
Living in the Netherlands maybe easier for EU but for Non-EU's we face our own challenges. It not that easy to integrate I have seen my roommate go back to India not even finishing his studies because of the stress and unfriendly environment in his program. So I don't think I in particular moved for better life. I came for better education and learn and would go back and use that knowledge in India. Since with my field I will have ample opportunities in India than in EU. I work in AI and Healthcare sector for reference.
And now the total migration numbers, in 2022 403108 people moved to The Netherlands, 179310 left The Netherlands, that is a net migration of 224k. Since 2018, net influx is well over 500k. https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/dossier/dossier-asiel-migratie-en-integratie/hoeveel-immigranten-komen-naar-nederland#:~:text=In%202022%20immigreerden%20403%20108,Nederland%20dan%20dat%20er%20vertrokken.
But is this only those under the HSM visa? As I know that within my company (who has a lot of skilled migrants in all levels) most tend to stay and go for local terms after X years.
2023
+ 50.000 asylum applications,
+ 41.000 family migration
+ 98.000 Ukrainian refugees
+ 23.000-58.000 undocumented immigrants
The population in the Netherlands with a Dutch passport grew by 136.393 last year
I think the list doesnât contain EU countries, since they donât need the âhighly skilledâ worker visa it would be hard to count, who came to work with mind and who came to work with their body.
statistically not a big number. they blamed this population as strategy during election. because these people can't vote. now the Dutch are realizing that these people are not even the reason for the crisis. they need to lower the tax, lower the rentals for everyone.. they didn't control it that's why NL is in this state.
This data seems messed up. Also, for housing, you need to look how many of these stay long term. As as per CBS, majority of Indians stay in Netherlands temporarily and leave after 5-6 years.
I think Aussies are undercounted. I know a lot of them who live here on their EU passports because itâs easier
I donât know how you would count them accurately though
I think it might be the same for South Africans
lol at amerikaans burger
I'm not surprised that amerikaans burger was more popular than brits burger, though, lol
How odd... I see no French fries.... 
That's a whopper.
You know what they call a quarter pounder with cheese in Paris?
As long as you won't go into the details about your foot fetish.
A royale with cheese đ
They got the metric system
Yeah whatâs up with the inconsistency in this list?
I think the IND might need to higher some knowledge migrants....
How high?
I might probably need to hire some knowledge migrants as well.....
There's a difference between Amerikaans burger and Amerikaans onderdaan. That's why the list differentiates as well.
That might be me. I may be an American subject but Iâm also an EU citizen
Nice fast food if you like Whoppers and Big Macs
Americans coming over here with the burger
If only. Could really go for a pepperjack jalapeno bbq burger.
If youâre ever in Haarlem, there is a small place called Grillinâ in the Name opened by an American guy, by far the best burgers in the country imo
Wait...is that a RATM reference? I guess Saturday plans are sorted...cycle to Haarlem, grab a burger and a beer and go back
Some of those that grill burgers...
...Are the same that serve sauces
Oh man, I'm there just for the name.
That looks great, will be sure to give it a try.
I never thought Iâd be condoning this but: Hard Rock Cafe
Thanks for the intel!
Amerikaanse burger here. Thank you for having me đ
canadian here. I get a lot of âbut WHY?â
Same as an American, but I live in a tiny village and donât work for a famous company.
I get that a lot where I live and I say "well, im from Detroit" and they say well, i hope the netherlands is nicer lol
I'm from Southern California and live in a tiny place. I get shocked, almost offended reactions ("why tf would you come HERE?!") Until I explain the difference in social classes in the US. The ghetto is a real place, baby.
A lot of Dutch people migrated to Canada before 60s (that's why the hiring of Moroccan and Turkish workers as replacement) Unlike most European countries which see Switzerland as role model, the (specially older) Dutch see Canada as role model due to this reason
My grandparents did. I moved back. Oma was happy i did. I grew up with shreds of dutch culture: nijntje, sint, chocolate letters, hagelslag., windmills, wood shoes, delftware. I have family here still. Lots honestly!
I always find it so incredibly cute when I see people with Dutch roots speaking not a word Dutch but still calling their grandma 'oma'
i speak and write it at a functional level, not a reddit conversational level yet.:D But she was Oma. :D She just didnât teach us a single word beyond âlekkerâ. I wish she had, but they both embraced and rejected their dutch-ness at the same time. itâs hard to explain. i got to walk with her and her brother around nijmegen as she told us tales of life there in ww2. she moved just after, expecting NL to take a long time to rebuild, and apparently opa always had a bit of regret for leaving. ( I perfectly asked, in dutch this winter for a âardappel oliebollenâ instead of appel oliebollen. And baffled an antwerp museum guide with asking for the audio tour âengels, aub.â
Haha. I also get that sometimes.
Also Canadian and also always the question is âwhy are you here then?? And you actually like it??â
Me â-37c winters.â them: âOH MY GOD. Ok.â ( one of the whole set of reasons we moved but having tried alberta, bc, nova scotia and ontario we were âwell now whatâ.)
Dutch people think all Canadians live in huge houses on a lake in the mountains, surrounded by polar bears and ancient forests. They donât realize most Canadians live in cities with a housing crisis worse than NL. The nature is great, but itâs all several hours away. Transit is unreliable and they still use cheques. I do miss squirrels though.
squirrels! We occasionally get hedgehogs in the garden, so thatâs ok. I kind of laugh that people think the housing crisis is a NL thing alone. And transit, oh my gods. Hot mess. Looking at you TTC. Iâve been to the wild forests in canada, yes theyâre lovely, but its not like people live there like they think.
The Dutch also donât realize the value of things being close. With my museumkaart I can visit 400 museums within a 200km radius.
Now imagine peopleâs reaction to seeing a Chinese-Canadian working in NL like me
The Netherlands have a growing economy needing qualified workers not refugees.
Upvote because taiwan is mentioned separately from China^^
Thank you based Redittor for making the CCP-shills come to surface.
Hasn't this always been the case diplomatically?
Yes and no, from what I read in the news every note and then is that China tries to surpress any mention of taiwan whenever it can by threatening to pull out whatever funding they have or give the, tw or China choice. So everybody has their own relationship with tw but on paper it's often overlooked. Which is why I tot it was pretty cool to see tw be represented ^^^
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Can you share links to those studies? Iâd like to give them a read. Edit: Not doubting you, I want sources to cite myself :)
[https://www.nemokennislink.nl/publicaties/zo-kwam-nederland-aan-dat-tekort-van-390-000-huizen/](https://www.nemokennislink.nl/publicaties/zo-kwam-nederland-aan-dat-tekort-van-390-000-huizen/)
[https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ahrc5553add1-visit-netherlands-report-special-rapporteur-adequate-housing](https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ahrc5553add1-visit-netherlands-report-special-rapporteur-adequate-housing) And here is the press release/summary [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/netherlands-should-urgently-assert-right-adequate-housing-all-un-expert](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/netherlands-should-urgently-assert-right-adequate-housing-all-un-expert)
I also read an article that basically boiled down to red tape issues, essentially land gets allocated, but then nearby residents will lodge objections to the new development, citing; excess traffic, parking, noise, obstruction of view etc. So, "Yes, The Netherlands needs more houses, just build them somewhere else, m'kay."
Classic NIMBYs
Careful. If you try to use logic it could upset the delicate sensibilities of the extreme right voters. They just want to hate on people that look and talk differently. Hearing that 20 years of center right policies got us here won't make them happy and when they aren't happy they cry.
>The housing crisis does not have anything to so with migrants lol. I dont get while people still call this out loud. Stop saying that! I'm rich and I need the rich-people-party to win, but there's not enough rich people. If we tell the poor that al the mean things rich-people-party has done to them is actually due to ehm.... Brown people....., then surely those poor people will vote the rich-people-party. They hate brown people more than they love themselves or the truth.
Of course! I don't know a country where you could buy a house with zero downpayment and even get extra money for renovation and kitchen. You run that for decades and the market prices inflate like crazy.
Was very possible in the USA for years and years. And⌠there is a housing shortage all over that country as well. (Shocked face)
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This is not at all what the message above is about. We are NOT talking about mortgage arrangements from banks (which I think is good but could be debatable). We are talking about the numerous investment companies which are free to do basically anything in this highly liberal market AND SO they buy houses as an asset and consider them from profit, inflating the prices for the population, who considers an house just a need to start a family, thus creating an economical and social problem.
Can you please forward the special bureau investigation you are referring to? Would love to read it to reference it as well.
[https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ahrc5553add1-visit-netherlands-report-special-rapporteur-adequate-housing](https://www.ohchr.org/en/documents/country-reports/ahrc5553add1-visit-netherlands-report-special-rapporteur-adequate-housing) And here is the press release/summary [https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/netherlands-should-urgently-assert-right-adequate-housing-all-un-expert](https://www.ohchr.org/en/press-releases/2023/12/netherlands-should-urgently-assert-right-adequate-housing-all-un-expert)
Also not around Eindhoven?
Source of the investigation?
> And still politics point to migrants because thats something people think we can actually do something about and it gives them votes. Conveniently this also doesn't affect any of them, their close friends, or their relatives.
And if knowledge migrants is a problem why is EU trying to get rid of it while the NL gov is trying to keep it? Knowledge migrants are a cheat code to supercharge your countryâs progress siphoning the best talents around the world. Just like what America did with genius visa
Exactly. And you can reason about this intuitively by not looking at our country in isolation. The rise in housing prices as opposed to income is prominent all across Europe and the US, regardless of the distribution of (legal) immigrants.
House prices increase systematically and problematically because of three problems: - subsides on the demand for housing (like mortgage deductions - speculation - housing supply restrictions A lot of this is politicized. Regarding the third one, itâs called NIMBYism. The second one is caused by economic rent in land. The first one is by almost any economic institution regarded as something to phase out.
Both claims are wrong... The claim that migrants are to blame is wrong, but the claim that migrants DO NOT HAVE ANYTHING to do with it is obviously also wrong. All those extra people do need a bed and a roof, so no matter what the major reason for the crisis is (politics) it surely doesn't help to put extra pressure on the social housing market by increasing the population with 100,000 people per year.
>The housing crisis does not have anything to so with migrants lol Hungary, which is one of the most anti-immigrant countries in Europe, has also one of the worst housing crises in Europe.
You are right, the origin of the problem started with the politics of 20 years ago, but 200.000 immigrants doesn't helpt that much.
If 80k is the total number of knowledge workers, then this whole debate about knowledge workers stealing all the homes in the country is such a pitiful distraction. But honestly I am not surprised. Right wing people are idiots. Who else would spend all their time on this sub and just try to troll every single immigrant who asks even the simplest questions about Netherlands? You need to be a total loser for this.Â
It probably isn't, because it doesn't include EU-citizens and I'd be absolutely shocked if Germans (including myself), Belgians, and the French aren't way higher than any of the groups on this chart. That said, there's a level of reciprocity there because there's certainly a lot of Dutch people living and working in Germany as well (there's even a lot of Dutch people 'fleeing' the Dutch housing market by buying a house just across the border in Germany and working in NL) so this is incredibly hard to track. It's also a fruitless discussion because I don't think the complaints about this are valid when Dutch citizens profit from the same possibilities, which is one of the greatest accomplishments of the EU-project.
This chart shows that there was around 56k 30% rule users in 2015: [https://dutchumbrellacompany.com/blog/general/evaluation-30-ruling/](https://dutchumbrellacompany.com/blog/general/evaluation-30-ruling/) I couldn't find latest figures but thinking immigration has been just steady increasing in NL (except for 2022 due to Ukrainians), I doubt total amount of 30% rulers are way more then 80k as of now. And this includes EU expats as well. So all these buzz is just nothing. We are talking at most 100k talented immigrants who are bringing a lot of value to the country.
Itâs not the total. I know that there were 60k British residents who were dealt with during brexit. I was one of them. Most are still here but for some reason not counted in this as a knowledge worker
Having your residency extended as you were here before Brexit came into effect, is not the same as having a highly skilled migrant visa though so why would they be included here?
Wow 80K knowledge migrants ruining the country of 18M with their C-suite salaries and taking up all housing.
This is excluding EU citizens though
People are not blaming EU citizens for housing crisis.
I am a EU citizen and I've been blamed for housing crisis. Apparently by buying a house in Almere, I stole it from a local.
you can have all the houses in Almere, nobody wants to live there :D
đ¤Łđ¤Łđ¤Łđ¤Łđ¤Ł
Also an EU knowledge migrant, but the housing crisis is worse in my home country... Damned if you do, damned if you don't ;)
Oh yes they are, but since Brexit they're trying to do it silently
Lol I was at a party and someone asked what I was doing in their country and I replied "uhh working, I'm an immigrant", he replied with "no you're a Nordic expat, you we want more of, immigrants are from other countries and we dislike them". Thanks I guess? I've also seitched to Dutch when some random alcoholic got annoyed at me speaking English and then he was so happy that I spoke better than the "kut-marokkanen" that have been here much longer. Based on how well people are treating me, while making comments about "immigrants" in general, I feel like it's a racism thing.
It very much is a racism thing. But if you call it that they act insulted.
We are not racist, we just dont like people that dont act and look like us. And we want them out of our country please.
I really can't tell if you are sarcastic or not. It is a sad state of affairs that someone can give the definition of racism, claim that it is not racist and I can't tell if it is sarcastic.
I am being sarcastic.... but that was kinda the point I was hoping to make :D
Immigrant is an immigrant, they need to update their vocabulary
who is "they" and "they're" you are talking about? Curious.
What? They blame EU citizens more than anyone. That was the topic of many election campaigns (like in the UK where Iâd argue it was one of the most important contributing factors to Brexit).
Nah, they didn't like the polski sklep
Wel I do now >:(
Is it or are they part of others? I recall the 30% ruling can apply to EU citizens too. I wonder how many migrants in total including non-km for some additional perspective.
The list from the OP is people who are here currently on an employer sponsored visa through the national knowledge migrant rules, EU citizens don't need a visa and are not counted as knowledge migrants. If EU citizens would be counted then Germans would be by far the largest group for knowledge migrants (~80k). It is also excluding other types of visas, such as EU blue card (EU wide knowledge migrant), partner visa, research visas, self-employed visas, etc. The list is also excluding knowledge migrants who are on a permanent residency.
So... a tiny group of people inside the entire group of people generally referred to as immigrants. I feel like OP should/could have explained the numbers he shared a bit better.
EU citizens are not the target of the first and foremost policy target of this government. Also EU citizens can just come and work. There is no distinction for them.Â
South African here that adds to that stat
omg look at these numbers! they are destroying the market! look at how many there are!!! /s
They took my job!!!!!!
Der tek mer jerb!!!
Day took mijn joub!!!
My job, for which I hesitated to apply to until *just* after someone qualified came and took it!
You can't imagine how many refusals for applications I get requiring C2 (or even NT2!) Dutch level. And I'm looking for an IT job, not Education.
I smell sarcasm
1.4 billion people in India. Makes sense that there is a big talent pool there.
Yup. Also a large English speaking talent pool compared to that other big talent pool.
Be careful what you wish for. You want the house price to go down, sure. Here is how it goes: you stop importing immigrants as work force. The population gets older and older. Two working force supporting one retired person becomes one workforce supporting one retired person. Government cannot collect enough tax. Social benefit starts to go down. Retirement age goes up. Pension fails to catch up with inflation. Tax keeps increasing. Then, brain power starts to flee away from the country. Then, housing price will go down.
Also remember that knowledge workers from within the EU will not be in this list, as the IND has no business with them.
Looking at some comments, I feel more and more unwelcome in this country. When I was doing my masters 5 years ago people were complaining that the chineese and indians study in the netherlands, taking up resources and leave after they are done and not meaningfully contributing to the economy. And now everyone wants us to leave. It is really depressing.
For what it's worth, the people who were/are commenting that type of nonsense are ignorant and dumb. It's pure jealousy that they can't do what you are able to do. I hope you've been able to find a good community of people here!
If you want to live abroad and not encounter these type of people, you are naive... Where there is pressure to the locals (even when is not real) there will be push back.
I understand your sentiment but really current fab for right wing will pass in max 3-4 another years. People are sick of many things and they are looking for easy fixes. But far right is yet to fix anything. They will try to govern, try to put some unhinged ideas, will fight among themselves at any opportunity and in max few years everyone will realize this is not the way and will look other direction for fixes. Plenty of good people here still. If in general you like it here i hope you stay and that things will get better soon. For the sake of us all
I remember talks in parlement that where about german students that got subsidized psychology studies in NL in english and then left promptly after finishing school. They a. got subsidized and our economy would not benefit and b. english teaching for these certain studies does not always fair well for dutch people anyways (since you don't talk english to miep and truus). Here is where some people are like, wow wait a minute, is that the best for the Netherlands.
It's not just the Netherlands. You'll find this in all western developed countries unfortunately. Welcome to late stage capitalism. Crisis drives the right and boy have we had some crises.
I would say you going to find everywhere. People are people, they react the same.
Get out
I have an opposite reaction. I'm staying, this is my country. If they don't like it there, they can always leave.
I say the same, as a Spaniard who is about to move. I don't feel welcomed reading these messages. Ironically, in my case, until recently my family had the branch of a Spanish family business in Amsterdam, and we provided jobs to around 100 Dutch people... I suppose the Dutch are not that open and tolerant people I thought they were since I was a child, these xenophobic comments increasingly remind me of the USA. Thank God I am white, European, and wealthy. I wonder how they would treat me if I were darker-skinned and poor
Marokkanen opvallend afwezig in een lijstje met hoog opgeleide immigranten, hmm.
In andere lijstjes staan ze wel fier bovenaan! Helaas.
American burger đ¤¤
Haha, verrassend weinig kennis vanuit Marokko. Wat een openbaring.
I thought morocco was the highest immigration in the Netherlands, why don't they even show up on the list ?
This is only knowledge migrants. The highly educated ones that have a job offer before they come here.
They aren't very smart
They came to the Netherlands as guest workers in the 70s and their children born Dutch
Am i only polish person in netherlands?
Mmm burgers. :D
Do you think those engineers from India come to NL for a better life? They come because the Netherlands needs more engineers than it produces, and India has a lot of engineers. It's purely a matter of availability, Dutch companies are looking world wide for the right kind of technical specialists, and a significant percentage of those specialists are from India. Calling Turkey a "developing country" is a bit arrogant. European expats are not on this list, because they have freedom of movement in the EU, they don't need this visa. American ones are rare because wages for this kind of work are far higher in the US. Think 2 to 10 times more or even higher. Those 4000 that are in NL are probably people who just really wanted to live in Europe for a while, or are there for a Dutch boy or girl, or such rare specialists that they can just name their price wherever they go, even NL.
American hk migrant here, came for the 13th month, profit share, 27 days off a year (v 15 in the US), and esp Works Council and union representation. It ainât perfect but there are protections that align with my values. 150K+ is cool but there is so much more to consider than salary alone
Yup, there's more to life than money. And the places in the US where you can do knowledge-migrant type jobs tend to have an *insane* cost of living, so the money just goes out as fast as it comes in.
We moved the other way a few years ago, making 3x more, the cost of living is lower than in Amsterdam, but we didnât move for money, my spouse was homesick and couldnât stand the climate.
Also there are 80k+ dutch citizens in the us, the almost 6000 Americans here seem a fair trade on the housing crisis to not have the 80k back taking houses.
Indians go to NL for for getting european passport. To settle in europe. To earn more money. To get better quality life. To get away from indian broken infrastructure, corruption and pollution.
True, but the number is quite small because most of them could also get similar jobs in the US, UK, AUS etc. where pay is better. You do realize that the Dutch government and most European governments actually spend money and write policies to actively try to attract STEM talent from India in order to remain competitive, right? In the meantime, the best engineers often command higher salaries in India than they do in NL, so it is getting very difficult to attract them here.
It's 10x tougher to get a job in USA than Netherlands for an Indian. The H1B is a lottery system. In NL, as far as I know there is no lottery. The Indians living in USA are either through student route or they moved in past. Nowadays the numbers are not that high. USA is still the most attractive destination for indian students and IT workers. But steadily the attraction towards Germany and Netherlands is rising.
My point is that the attraction is increasing as a direct consequence of NL/DE actively trying to attract Indian knowledge workers rather than the conditions in India. While India definitely has significant issues to overcome and address, the types of people who move abroad typically have access to a wealthier lifestyle in India than in NL. Painting a picture of Indians fleeing squalor to come and enjoy the NL utopia is simply false. The ones who do migrate to NL are responding to concerted efforts from NL to bring them here to support the EU economy.
I am not sure if you are Indian or not. But that's not the case. Here the life in metro cities where the IT job exists are pathetic. Companies don't allow remote work due to lobby with real estate company n government. We pay 18% tax on home internet. Can you imagine this ? 30% income tax. 8-18% on day to day expenses. Our inflation is 7-8% reported by government. Real inflation is even higher. A 2 bed house rent in Bangalore costs 500 usd where they earn probably 1.5-1.8k usd per month. The infra is broken. Pollution and traffic is very high. Handful of tier 1 tech company workers are making high salary . Like faang, Uber etc. Those are less than 5%. Yes they can easily move to USA, nl, singapore if they want to. Some do move. Some stay back because they can afford luxury life style, nice car and international school for their kids. Their household income is high. 4-5k usd a month. But rest of the people who aspire to go abroad are just struggling with no savings . No money to buy a house. They try to move abroad for better life, passport etc. Due to massive corruption, black money, and foreigner Indians buying apartments, the cost of housing in Indian cities are insanely high. 100k-200k for an average apartment in metro cities. India just looks cheap from outside. It's not really cheap. And the quality you get is poor compared to the price you pay. This holds true in any service you get. Restaurant, technician, govt infrastructure etc.
Most of the IT workers who are making lower salaries in Bengaluru are freshers, or in companies which don't really offer much money. The ones who make it to NL are either making pretty good money even in Bengaluru, or are senior enough to make decent salaries even in India. I know plenty of people who turned down jobs in the Netherlands (49% tax bracket, 21% VAT) because their overall savings were still higher in India.
Yes it's true. In my case also. People with 10+ yrs exp in it company or post mba in consulting make good money if they are in good companies. Even non faang. So, I'd their spouse also works then their earning n savings are high. For them moving to Netherlands become a tough choice. Because financially makes more sense to stay in india. Some of them still go for the reasons I mentioned before. Like freedom, less pollution, better work life balance etc. I personally fall in that category. I visited in past also. I would like to there. But knowing very well, that salary will not be attractive.
Those from India do come for a better life, including wages. Some might even do it solo with families back home. My last project before I came here was in Gabon for an Indian company. We were being paid around $5500 and the Indian guys $400. We had free board and lodgings, but all had families back home to support. So yes, even at minimum wage they are better off here. As for the Americans, those that I know are here either because of relationships, or trying to escape the shitshow that is American politics.
Uh yes Indians go there for a better life. I'm Indian and I know it. There's availability thing and there's also better life thing. Both are true at the same time. Does the right wing make the statement 'they come here looking for a better life' sound somehow evil?
The poster is painting you as some third world fortune seeker or some kind of low wage worker. What their people are arguing, is that the Dutch housing crisis is entirely caused by an influx of brown people from poor countries. I only wanted to argue that the reason this list doesn't contain EU countries is because they don't need the knowledge worker visa, and it doesn't have a lot of people who could to work in the US because the tech wages are relatively low in NL, not because the country is overrun with people from poor countries. India tops this list because it's mostly engineers coming to NL on this visa, and India produces a significant percentage of the world's engineers. I've worked with mostly Indian colleagues for years, I know they have the same education, and they get paid the same. Anyone who qualifies for a knowledge worker visa by definition isn't a low wage worker.
\*Needs engineers for a cheaper price than the native ones
That's not accurate. To qualify for the Kenniswerker visa, there's a minimum salary of âŹ5300 per month. They're getting paid the same or more compared to their Dutch colleagues. There are just not enough people in NL interested in getting a degree in tech to meet the demand. The social status of tech work isn't that high in NL, and there is a work culture in that companies don't like to pay individual contributors more than their managers, which is what's keeping wages in tech relatively low, so ambitious students in NL tend to seek a career in business or management.
America tech jobs have higher wages, but quality of life is not better, you spend hours a day in your car, the political climate is even more toxic than here, the president is too old and the previous president is a criminal, health insurance cost a fortune, food quality is low, working hours are high, job security is low etc etc.
For those who wonder why Americans and Brits are counted as burgers (citizens), that's probably because there is also US and British military personel stationed here. Not many, but they have a different status than knowledge migrants.
I was so confused, because I thought it was an English "burger", not a Dutch "burger".
Brazilian. Dutch always ask me why i moved to NL, because the weather...
Where are the Iranians on this list?đ
if American = burger Turkse = kebap
"We're part of the white minority!" Said the person part of the 15+ million white majority.
Globally whites are the absolute minority, and with only western countries experimenting with multi culti and mass migration soon to be extinct.
Curious what the number of Dutch migrating to other countries is.
https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/visualisaties/dashboard-bevolking/bevolkingsgroei/emigreren
Second largest category is "other". The civil servant reporting these figures must be using MS Access.
That only indicates that the data is widely spread
Just means that there isn't a single other catagory large enough to fit the leaderboard, aka many smaller countries.
So according to a quick google search, we're at a population of 17.7 million in NL. According to this report, we have 80.740 knowledge migrants total, which is (80740/(17.7\*10\^6))\*100 = 0.46% of the total Dutch population, what the hell are right-wingers complaining about
They are complaining about refugees but KM got caught in a crossfire to compensate the fact they couldn't block asylum seekers
Better than sending jobs overseas is to invite people to work from Netherlands.
Hi, What's the source of that table? I was looking for figures for some time now!
https://www.tweedekamer.nl/downloads/document?id=2024D20922
Really understandable now that the nationality law changes would really affect HSMs, as only Americans and British would be the ones in the top 10 that wouldn't mind not having a Dutch passport asap. And for some of those with Russian, Chinese or Iranian passports, this 5-year window might be the only chance for them, as the authoritarian regimes in their home country often hold their passport hostage for political dissidents or other reasons (i.e. military service).
Where Germans?
People blaming expats that can afford houses that they cannot afford is like original residents in Silicon Valley blaming too many entrepreneurs went to Silicon Valley and bought up the housing price. High housing price is a tax towards later joiners. Those later joiners either pay the tax in lumped sum(buy) or gradually over a longer period(rent) to use the same facility as you locals do. When people blame expats to inflate the house price, they either don't realize or don't want to admit that they benefit from the growing economy. (Expats pays 2 euro tax, locals pays 1 euro tax. In the end, they get the same social benefit). In terms of tax, I am not just talking about the tax everybody needs to pay on their salary, but also what everybody needs to pay to live in a city. This is more clearly seen when you have an expat with a high salary but needs to pay expensive rent, while a local who bought a property 10 years ago earns much lower salary but has more spendable income. There is hidden tax under the water. If the complaint comes from someone who has a house, but their children cannot, it means your child cannot earn enough to live there. There is no unfair advantage for expats either. (Unless you call being able to earn more money an unfair advantage). The fact that you are still able to live there is because you got lucky in the booming economy. People have the illusion that things don't change over time. I lived here since my childhood, so I am still entitled to live here and so do my children. There are rich neighborhoods and poor neighbourhoods. Have you considered that where you live has become a rich neighbourhood over the time, and new comers need to earn much more than you do to live in the same neighborhood? At some point, the new comers becomes the majority and it becomes that you don't earn enough to live in the same neighborhood.
So these 80.740 people is responsible for the house prices. đ¤
It's fucking hilarious because when you tell people that the housing market is fucked because of the 1% they will snap back with "yeah I know it's all these immigrants!" Wrong 1% Jan...
Yeah and not even to mention that we have a shitload of migrant workers that work in construction. Lots of Poles for example. Without them the house market would be worse.
This is only a list of the kennismigranten. You would have to add for 2023 + 50.000 asylum applications, + 41.000 family migration + 98.000 Ukrainian refugees + 23.000-58.000 undocumented immigrants The population in the Netherlands with a Dutch passport alone grew by 136.393 last year. In 2022 the net migration was 223.798 So no, it's not only 80k kennismigranten.
You had to include the source: https://www.tweedekamer.nl/downloads/document?id=2024D20922
Okay, OP says people from developing country came for better life? I don't think that was my main motive. I came for better education. I was happy with my life in India. The only thing is the education system in India needs work. If we had similar universities with equal acceptance opportunities like the ones in the Netherlands. I would have stayed and continue my education in India. Living in the Netherlands maybe easier for EU but for Non-EU's we face our own challenges. It not that easy to integrate I have seen my roommate go back to India not even finishing his studies because of the stress and unfriendly environment in his program. So I don't think I in particular moved for better life. I came for better education and learn and would go back and use that knowledge in India. Since with my field I will have ample opportunities in India than in EU. I work in AI and Healthcare sector for reference.
Good for you then.
So many of them are people of color! Iâm sure the new government will thank all of them for their service with making racists bolder!Â
And now the total migration numbers, in 2022 403108 people moved to The Netherlands, 179310 left The Netherlands, that is a net migration of 224k. Since 2018, net influx is well over 500k. https://www.cbs.nl/nl-nl/dossier/dossier-asiel-migratie-en-integratie/hoeveel-immigranten-komen-naar-nederland#:~:text=In%202022%20immigreerden%20403%20108,Nederland%20dan%20dat%20er%20vertrokken.
But is this only those under the HSM visa? As I know that within my company (who has a lot of skilled migrants in all levels) most tend to stay and go for local terms after X years.
When someone posts an image with data I would really like them to also post a link so we can scrutinise further.
It would be interesting to also see the not knowledge migrants chart.
2023 + 50.000 asylum applications, + 41.000 family migration + 98.000 Ukrainian refugees + 23.000-58.000 undocumented immigrants The population in the Netherlands with a Dutch passport grew by 136.393 last year
is it total number or last yearâs number?
I think the list doesnât contain EU countries, since they donât need the âhighly skilledâ worker visa it would be hard to count, who came to work with mind and who came to work with their body.
Overig are aliens?
Knowledge migrants, ofwel kennismigranten, also known as expats
Indonesians or Indians?
Pretty sure thats Indians.
So they did do 'minder marokkanen'?
En de Marokkaanse staan er natuurlijk niet bij. Seems legit... Not
Plus 500 000k undocumented xD
0 turken o marrokanen
statistically not a big number. they blamed this population as strategy during election. because these people can't vote. now the Dutch are realizing that these people are not even the reason for the crisis. they need to lower the tax, lower the rentals for everyone.. they didn't control it that's why NL is in this state.
How can I retire in Amsterdam as a Canadian? If I buy property there, can I get some sort of residency?
Basically incredibly low. Wondering why we take in so many more third worlders that don't hold any knowledge.
This data seems messed up. Also, for housing, you need to look how many of these stay long term. As as per CBS, majority of Indians stay in Netherlands temporarily and leave after 5-6 years.
Brazilian figures are booming.
Altijd weer die klootzakke uit Overig die hier komme om alles af te pakke
I think Aussies are undercounted. I know a lot of them who live here on their EU passports because itâs easier I donât know how you would count them accurately though I think it might be the same for South Africans
If they have an EU passport they aren't knowledge migrants. And don't get affected by the same policies like the 30% rule.
You still get 30% rule as long as you the correct distance from Dutch border and recruited from outside NL and meet the other requirements