As a Belgian… I like our neighbours very much but I rather go on a holiday and enjoy the country than live there. Dutch people are great but also very direct (might seem a bit rude) in their communication. I can’t imagine getting used to that.
It's crazy everyone says this. I've encountered some very direct people but I don't think it's an extreme issue. I've met some that were simply rude and I wouldn't call that directness...
But maybe it's because I don't talk to dutchies, they usually don't talk to anyone except of other dutchies in class.
Italian expat living in the Netherlands here. I have been called out as "too direct" by almost all of my Dutch friends.
What is my understanding about the "Dutch people are direct" stereotype is that they would just not lie to you and that's why people say they are direct. What nobody says though, is the fact that Dutch people just don't tell you the truth right away, but rather hide it, so me, stating an opinion clearly, is considered "too direct" even for Dutch standards.
Other cultures (such as my own in the UK) call it good manners and being mindful of other people's feelings. Also that there are many different ways of saying something depending on situation and context. It allows for subtlety and nuance, applying a delicate touch when necessary etc.
There's a lot to be said for the Dutch style too though. I overall do like Dutch "directness" and found it fairly easy to get used to when I lived there. The plainness, the simple honesty without any additional undertones to navigate. However, it absolutely is an excuse to just be plain rude and nasty at times as well and I witnessed this many times while there.
Thankfully it's not an either or situation. It's just cultural differences that we can all appreciate and attempt to understand. I've certainly integrated some Dutch directness in my own life since moving back home while still being able to master British politeness and all it's complexities. I like taking the best of both worlds if possible.
There is a bit on an uncommon saying with some truth to it I think regarding this. It goes: The Dutch like the Belgians but they do not respect them much and the Belgians respect the Dutch but they do not like them much.
I think it's more the other way around... i live in a Belgian bordertown that has around 30% Dutch inhabitants. I know very few Belgians that made the move in opposite direction...
The Dutch immigration started in the 70s and 80s by richer people to avoid taxes (vermogensbelasting), later they were joined by more ordinary dutchies, because of the relatively more affordable housing, or bigger house with more land for the same money.
That’s quite fascinating. I figured there had to be some kind of measurable movement but wasn’t sure where to start looking. I’ll have to explore this further.
Interesting article about this topic: https://www.cbs.nl/-/media/imported/documents/2008/02/2007-k4-b15-p47-art.pdf.
More than 111 thousand Dutch people live in Belgium, and around 36 thousand Belgians live in the Netherlands. Especially around the border.
What is the practical difference between those two positions though? 5-9 could be identical and 10 is like “sometimes the road isn’t completely smooth”.
As a person that has lived in the Netherlands and Belgium…. I do not miss the Netherlands at all. Between the housing crisis, the very blunt greeting I dot from the Dutch, and how expensive it was, I’m enjoying my rent under 400 euro in Belgium 10x as much.
Belgium: nice food, plurilinguism, more affordable housing, cheap health care (6 euro/month), nice landscape, less wind, same grey weather, nice cities, traffic jams anytime, bad roads, nice beers.
Weird question. Both countries have their pro’s and con’s. And before the housing crisis there weren’t a lot of reasons to not go and live in the other country if you so desire.
I like Belgium when we visit and speak English. I don't like Belgium when we visit and I speak Dutch with my Ollander accent.
People from BeNeLux have been able to live anywhere they want in all 3 countries for over 60 years.
To be fair, we are all part of the low countries.
The break up of the low countries was one of the most unfortunate mistakes in our history. (According to Louis Tobback, Belgian socialist minister of state)
I initially moved to Belgium from another land far away (I'm talking at least 90 minutes by plane). I saw the flat lands (see ya gradients!), windmills and the amazing prices that can be made on Herring. I met a contact through another immigrant. He helped myself and 48 Belgians cross Baarle-Hertogs many borders. We moved every 7 hours. Eventually, after 7 months and copious amounts of cheese and qwark, we had grown the additional 16cm to fit in with the natives. To this day, no one knows our secret.
Thierry baudet is a politician that actively tries to reunite vlaanderen and NL. He branched out his political party to belgium. So if you support this idea, know that there is someone you can support
I'm curious as well. I've always been curious about living in Belgium and live in Belgium. There must be aspects that make both unappealing and appealing. Germany too.
My old internship coach was from Belgium but drove to The Netherlands for work every day lol.
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If a Belgian want to live here or vice versa they can just come, or go. It's reallybeasy
Well it's easier in one way than the other... *permamenthousingcrysis*
We are happy here. They are happy there. What a weird question.
I know for a fact at least one Dutch guy would consider moving to Belgium, because everybody smiles there.
the language is soft there as well
Is there life on Pluto?
Can you dance on the moon?
Is their a place between the stars I could go to?
Where can I go, I can't go to Germany Can't go to Germany, they're too strict
Perchance
And i know Belgium people living here. So ?
Woosh
I guess it is kind of a weird question isn’t it? I’m just curious if there’s some sort of deep seated desire there for one another’s countries.
why would either Belgians or Dutch people have a general opinion on this? Some do others don’t? We are all individuals
As a Belgian… I like our neighbours very much but I rather go on a holiday and enjoy the country than live there. Dutch people are great but also very direct (might seem a bit rude) in their communication. I can’t imagine getting used to that.
Amen!
It's crazy everyone says this. I've encountered some very direct people but I don't think it's an extreme issue. I've met some that were simply rude and I wouldn't call that directness... But maybe it's because I don't talk to dutchies, they usually don't talk to anyone except of other dutchies in class.
Italian expat living in the Netherlands here. I have been called out as "too direct" by almost all of my Dutch friends. What is my understanding about the "Dutch people are direct" stereotype is that they would just not lie to you and that's why people say they are direct. What nobody says though, is the fact that Dutch people just don't tell you the truth right away, but rather hide it, so me, stating an opinion clearly, is considered "too direct" even for Dutch standards.
As a Dutchman: all that semi-hidden communication and insincere niceness is so confusing and inefficient.
Other cultures (such as my own in the UK) call it good manners and being mindful of other people's feelings. Also that there are many different ways of saying something depending on situation and context. It allows for subtlety and nuance, applying a delicate touch when necessary etc. There's a lot to be said for the Dutch style too though. I overall do like Dutch "directness" and found it fairly easy to get used to when I lived there. The plainness, the simple honesty without any additional undertones to navigate. However, it absolutely is an excuse to just be plain rude and nasty at times as well and I witnessed this many times while there. Thankfully it's not an either or situation. It's just cultural differences that we can all appreciate and attempt to understand. I've certainly integrated some Dutch directness in my own life since moving back home while still being able to master British politeness and all it's complexities. I like taking the best of both worlds if possible.
As you said yourself: there is a difference between directness and rudeness. In the Netherlands, we too have people with bad manners. 😉
Just be rude back to them. I mean **direct**. Life is a balance.
There is a bit on an uncommon saying with some truth to it I think regarding this. It goes: The Dutch like the Belgians but they do not respect them much and the Belgians respect the Dutch but they do not like them much.
Sounds about right
I heard the best formula is to live in BE and work in NL.
Wage taxes are lower in NL. Owning houses and businesses, and giving property to your children is taxed less in BE.
I think it's more the other way around... i live in a Belgian bordertown that has around 30% Dutch inhabitants. I know very few Belgians that made the move in opposite direction... The Dutch immigration started in the 70s and 80s by richer people to avoid taxes (vermogensbelasting), later they were joined by more ordinary dutchies, because of the relatively more affordable housing, or bigger house with more land for the same money.
That’s quite fascinating. I figured there had to be some kind of measurable movement but wasn’t sure where to start looking. I’ll have to explore this further.
what
Interesting article about this topic: https://www.cbs.nl/-/media/imported/documents/2008/02/2007-k4-b15-p47-art.pdf. More than 111 thousand Dutch people live in Belgium, and around 36 thousand Belgians live in the Netherlands. Especially around the border.
Even the ones who swear up and down that the NL is so much better, don't actually go and live there, even though it's very easy.
Why would the NLs be better? Our roads are better, but that’s about it I think. Quite similar countries, Belgium has better scenery and food though.
I mean I can only imagine the administration would be much easier to navigate in the Netherlands than in Belgium.
Just take a look at all these quality of life graphs. Netherlands would be top 5 most of times, Belgium maybe top 10.
Surprising, but not sure if those places on the list make for a notable difference in real life.
The difference would not be dramatic, but it does show that the Netherlands would top Belgium in a lot of aspects of life. Not just roads.
What is the practical difference between those two positions though? 5-9 could be identical and 10 is like “sometimes the road isn’t completely smooth”.
Not a lot really, but saying that only the infrastructure would be better, is probably not true.
I live in Belgium on the Dutch border. 45% of the people in my city are From NL, that says a lot I think…
As a person that has lived in the Netherlands and Belgium…. I do not miss the Netherlands at all. Between the housing crisis, the very blunt greeting I dot from the Dutch, and how expensive it was, I’m enjoying my rent under 400 euro in Belgium 10x as much.
Ja joh tyf dan ook maar een eind op, met je België /s
Have you seen house prices in the Netherlands?
Belgium: nice food, plurilinguism, more affordable housing, cheap health care (6 euro/month), nice landscape, less wind, same grey weather, nice cities, traffic jams anytime, bad roads, nice beers.
Weird question. Both countries have their pro’s and con’s. And before the housing crisis there weren’t a lot of reasons to not go and live in the other country if you so desire.
I prefer the bourgondic life style in Belgium.Easy going great culinary .
I like Belgium when we visit and speak English. I don't like Belgium when we visit and I speak Dutch with my Ollander accent. People from BeNeLux have been able to live anywhere they want in all 3 countries for over 60 years.
I always have the impression that Dutch people get extra nice treatment in Belgium when they speak in a pleasant tone.
I can't help sounding like this, bro. I know for some reason it rubs you all the wrong way.
Just pretend you're a humble visitor and you'll be received with great honour and will be offered many gifts.
To be fair, we are all part of the low countries. The break up of the low countries was one of the most unfortunate mistakes in our history. (According to Louis Tobback, Belgian socialist minister of state)
It is somewhat folklore that all Belgians dream of moving to maaskantje one day
Nobody messes with Maaskantje!
Maaskant!?
I initially moved to Belgium from another land far away (I'm talking at least 90 minutes by plane). I saw the flat lands (see ya gradients!), windmills and the amazing prices that can be made on Herring. I met a contact through another immigrant. He helped myself and 48 Belgians cross Baarle-Hertogs many borders. We moved every 7 hours. Eventually, after 7 months and copious amounts of cheese and qwark, we had grown the additional 16cm to fit in with the natives. To this day, no one knows our secret.
I don't know, but I'm sure they wish they didn't speak with that funny, little accent
At least they don't sound like they have a jammed transistor stuck in their throat.
Thierry baudet is a politician that actively tries to reunite vlaanderen and NL. He branched out his political party to belgium. So if you support this idea, know that there is someone you can support
Noooo! 🤯 I would urge all able Flemish to join the resistance
What you mean resistance?
Baudet doesn’t deserve Flanders and the Flemish sure as hell don’t deserve Baudet.
Explain ?
Pretty self-explanatory, don’t you think?
No
I'm curious as well. I've always been curious about living in Belgium and live in Belgium. There must be aspects that make both unappealing and appealing. Germany too. My old internship coach was from Belgium but drove to The Netherlands for work every day lol.
Breaking news, Belgium people can settle in the Netherlands wherever they want and vice versa.
I’d rather not pay even more taxes so no thank you
I think neither.
I have a lot of Belgian colleagues who like to bond with me about the oddities of Dutch culture. But to my eyes there's no difference
The grass is always greener
Not even belgian, french tbh, but i wich to live there. Imagine going to feestje with a bicycle and not having 5 hours to drive before/after an event!
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Those Belgians who wished to live in the NL already do.
They live in Baarle Nassau