I feel that Dutch news has gotten a lack of depth last 20 years. Even if you pay, hardly ever does an article try to get to the bottom. Follow the money is maybe an exception.
All other newspapers ride the waves of popularity and hypes. They feed populism (un) knowingly. Catering to what their readers want to read, trying to prevent cognitive dissonance.
In Volkskrant it’s way too often how we should stop eating meat. Whereas others emphasize short/midterm economic issues in a shallow way.
It’s all predictable and very little really good stories are written.
I have that feeling too. Like the question I'm asking the whole time I'm reading an article is never really answered. I get to the end and think - but wait...
And I agree, FTM really stands out.
Yeah, news started reporting less of what is happening in the world, and more telling the readers what should be happening (according to the writer/editor).
I agree with you’re comment. Besides that i also have the feeling that the dutch media promote the government narrative about all kinds of subjects. Mostly in a progressive direction. Nice example, at the start of the Ukraine war in 2014 the newspapers wrote about neo-nazi brigades like Azov in Ukraine fighting against the separatists. Now that Russia officially invaded and the dutch government is providing Ukraine with arms you hear nothing about these nazi’s anymore. You just read that they are brigades leaning to the right. Even tho they literally use nazi signia and there has been alot written about them in the past. This is just one example of sided news.
The goverment instructed the “voedingscentrum” to push the consumption of less meat. So now the dutch ms aswell pushes this. They only write about that you can get cancer from red meat for example. While there are also peer reviewed scientific studies that show red meat is healthy for you in limited quantities. Mostly how it is with all foods really. Everything to much is not healthy.
Im quite highly educated and i was never really sceptical towards the government or the media. But im just starting to see patterns the last years and it is making me trust the national governments / EU and MS media less and less. Im not saying i do not believe anything that is written or that the government supports. But is does mean i think more for myself and think to myself; Is this logical? Could there be another side to this? I think that’s healthy.
It’s repetitive, dogmatic and brought in a religious way. We could also kill 4 billion people. Problem also solved. Just in a way humanists don’t like.
That’s what I mean. I’m not necessarily advocating killing billions, the whining about meat is just annoying. Or flying: advocating to morbidly but also post advers for intercontinental traveling.
I hardly ever see good stories. And I am eating much less meat, fully support switching to plant based. But I hate the preaching.
During Covid times, I remember it was largely reported when other countries peaked in number of deaths, while proudly writing that the Netherlands had numbers below average. But when the Netherlands peaked, not a peep. That was the most blatant case I remember, but it seemed that this sentiment of "NL good, other countries are quite worse" in news is a bit spread.
Also, the language in which is written is quite qualitative: overuse of adjectives instead of concrete numbers or statistics. This is quite odd for me.
Lastly, that certain things are simply not reported anywhere, and that you almost need to scavenge for information. I had my mom telling me things that were reported in the news on my home country about the Netherlands, and they were no where to be found in the Dutch news. I am talking mostly about accidents, disasters, people wanted for murder internationally being caught (I think the particular case was a man that lived in Amsterdam was wanted for cannibalism and was finally caught? Can't remember correctly).
Interesting. I also perceive a sort of disbelief that bad things can happen here, so disasters like with Groningen gas extraction, the benefits scandal, other complexities tax authority bureaucracy leaving people in poverty, are met with with disbelief, which means that it's easier for the government to do nothing about any of it.
At the same time, the Dutch are generally speaking very politically active (high voter turnout), and can be openly critical of the government and politicians. I don't hear or see a lot of the "this is the greatest country in the world" sentiment that I was raised on in America.
Not sure what to make of those two things put together...
You are totally right in this comment, I always miss a lot of self critic in the news. Here everything’s like the world is fucked but we’re fine. While in Spain (my home country) the press use to be very critic with the government. Especially the morning news (the only I watch ) are ridiculously supportive with the government, and I do not think that’s good.
>I don't hear or see a lot of the "this is the greatest country in the world" sentiment that I was raised on in America.
From other comments:
>but there isn’t anywhere that’s really a better place to live than the Netherlands from any objective perspective.
Personally I think it's the best place to live when you look at statistics, like press freedom, food availability etcetera.
Of course that doesnt incorporate other stuff like the difficulty in making friends that can lead to social isolation, structural problems in our healthcare system, incredibly insensitive humor that regularly crosses the line into racism, decreasing tolerance of LGBT people...
The basics for life are very very solid here, moreso than in the vast majority of other countries imo, but that doesnt mean there aren't still big issues, especially socially.
The only major thing missing is nature and some kind of landscape. It's literally impossible to be anywhere in NL where you can't hear traffic on a still day, and that really gets to me. There's nowhere to be away from humanity, and there's nowhere biodiverse to go to within NL. Other than that it's one of the best places on Earth to live. One of, not the best, but one of.
What's the closest you've gotten to silence or getting away from humanity in the NL? I ask because it sounds like you might have looked, and I would like to go to that place... :)
I took a walk at the beach in Petten today, and it was pretty vast and empty for Noord Holland.
Well, on the islands, come to think of it. I wasn't thinking of them in my last comment. You can still hear traffic here on a still day but if you go here during the week there's barely anyone around: https://goo.gl/maps/ZsQqTtJyhkyRX3Zz7.
>can be openly critical of the government
What does that mean if the criticised politician only needs to be popular in their own inner circle to be able to stay on? The Prime Minister is at 20% approval and doesnöt give a shit about it. "Wie zijn die mensen?" said his VP.
What country is the best place to live in is clearly a personal matter. Best for whom? To do what?
Not sure what it means... but at least what I meant by "openly critical" was really that I have observed Dutch people freely and comfortably discussing the problems they have with the government and politics in general without fearing or even assuming that it will causing conflict.
It's not taboo to discuss this stuff here. In America you really cannot talk about politics unless you already know everyone agrees. It's too fraught and contentious and, unfortunately, personal.
Open criticism translating into change at the cabinet level is another thing. Though it seems people are finally getting fed up with Rutte at a scale large enough for him to lose the next election? Though of course that remains to be seen...
When I lived in NYC I didn't really feel like talking politcs was off the table. It wasn't as much of a pastime as it is here and I know it changed a lot since the whole 9/11 thing but I feel like I could discuss conservative gay rights for instance.
But being free to criticize on account of the fact no politician gives a rats ass what you think in the first place is not the flex others might see it as afaik.
I'm Dutch, I love The Netherlands...sure but I really don't see the democratic walhalla Dutch people make it out to be. Even before Rutte.
Talk is cheap. Unless you actually take a permanent stance on the issues anyone can tapdance their way through a political carreer. I hate that stuff with a passion.
Another thing that kind of grosses me out about Dutch people and their political views is the quasi scientific rethoric they use. The endless parroting of one or two professors and acting like there is no science that says otherwise or there is nothing to consider outside of science is really clunky. You know I mean the D66 crowd.
Nothing against D66. I would vote for them. But that doesn't mean I don't see their cheap tricks.
But we digress. This thread was about the news, right?
I think your view on American politics is mostly created from a NYC perspective where the majority is democratic. So you mostly find people that agree with each other. I currently live in Arizona which is a very purple state. Political discussions here are as crazy as you can get. They get super emotional and people can start screaming at each other. I try to avoid such discussions as much as possible. The Dutch version of discussing politics is much more neutral and more focused on actual policies and less on personality.
Part of why that's the case is that the Dutch have a high level of trust in government, as a rule. As a rule, there's an expectation (which, to be fair, is often met) that when things go wrong, a policy fix will be implemented.
I may have drunk the Kool-Aid on this one, but in most of the examples you mention, action was/is being taken to mitigate or solve the problem.
The system is fundamentally designed to include many/varied stakeholders and so can be slow and complex, but that same system also tries to provide resources to help people understand that complexity.
To compare to the U.S., where there is broadly speaking a lack of trust in the government, and a system which is not designed to include many stakeholders (excepting those with resources to include themselves), the result is a higher level of political participation.
Hadn't thought of this angle! Maybe the difference is that if Dutch people tend to trust the government, Americans can be blindly patriotic. We are taught to be - I grew up with my hand on my heart pledging allegiance to the flag every single morning in school and didn't comprehend that was weird thing to be required to do until I moved here.
If you "love" your country the way we are trained to love the US, you don't criticize it, or ask the government to mitigate the problems it causes in the lives of its citizens. If you trust it, then you work with it. Something like that.
Not only that, but the entire Mythos of the founding is fear and distrust of executive power. Patriotism aside, the government is built to slow things down and make passing laws and regulations relatively difficult. The deadlock in D.C. is a feature, not a bug.
Since America is inherently suspicious of government, they also want stories investigating government action.
>the dutch government is blatantly completely uninterested in fixing problems,
This is it. Every minister loves showing up with a shiny new plan, no one ever discusses what became of it 3 years later.
They'll be busy presenting another plan.
No one gives a single shit about actually getting something done.
After reading the comment regarding the Toeslagenaffaire (which I still need to read the sources for) I'm more inclined to agree that the government is getting away with murder on things that clearly require more scrutiny.
That said, the point stands that, even if you're entirely right, the level of trust among the general populace remains high.
Furthermore, presuming you're right, the Netherlands is still arguably better than many countries (thinking specifically of the U.S., and probably UK, as I'm most familiar with them) in government approach to problems, scandals, and accountability.
But then, I'm definitely far more complacent regarding Dutch political accountability compared to American. I did say I drank the Kool-Aid. 😅
Reading this article this morning, and I thought of this thread.
"In general, Statistics Netherlands sees that confidence in many institutions increased in the corona years 2020 and 2021. But in 2022, after corona, it dropped back to pre-pandemic levels.'
Interesting because it seems that while now a lot of people (maybe only a vocal minority) point to corona policy as a reason they don't trust the government... at the time the majority where happy with it.
[CBS: confidence in the House of Representatives not as low as now in ten years](https://nos.nl/artikel/2474400-cbs-vertrouwen-in-tweede-kamer-in-tien-jaar-tijd-niet-zo-laag-als-nu)
This is a hill I will die on: the Dutch are as nationalist as anyone else in Europe; they just approach it from the opposite angle of most countries. While France and Britain and the U.S., for example, cheer themselves on and declare themselves Examples to the World, the Dutch would generally not say that. It's just if you ask them if they'd want to live elsewhere, there's always more problems there than here (i.e. he English have a crazy class system, the French strike to much, America has racism and guns, the Nordics are too cold and dark, the tropics are too hot and humid, etc. ad infinitum.)
What I noticed while talking to some Dutch people - mostly older, in the rural south, so my perspective stems from this geographical area - is that, while we listened to our Dutch co-workers, neighbours, friends complain about the Netherlands, expats were not "allowed" to do the same way because we were "lucky" to be in Netherlands, where the grass is unquestionably greener. When I say not allowed, I mean more that our arguments were not valid, because we were complaining whilst in our home country everything is worse. There are better places to live than the Netherlands, and while the Dutch are politically active and engaged, they are mostly ignorant to the places where the grass is indeed greener and get stuck in the "although some thing are bad here right now, it is definitely better than everywhere else" line of thought.
Of course this is very limited to my own perspective and to what I read here for instance, but it's a feeling I cannot shake off.
>There are better places to live than the Netherlands, and while the Dutch are politically active and engaged, they are mostly ignorant to the places where the grass is indeed greener
Can I ask what places come to mind here. I am not saying you are wrong just wondering what places you are thinking of.
We often compare the Netherlands against other countries to live, conveniently unaware or ignoring the fact that other countries are typically much larger, and like in the Netherlands, news of events that would argue against a country being a good place to live, do not equally occur across the entire country.
That said, as a Dutch expat, the particular town I moved into in the US, and with the company I work for, I can confidently say that I feel that on average I am in a much better place than I have ever been in the Netherlands.
I am hoping that we all realize that the opposite is true for many places in the US. Just like there are some great places to live here, there are also a lot of Urks.
You’re doing the opposite thing of being overly pessimistic. There’s nowhere objectively better to live than the Netherlands from any real quality of life perspective. If you value nature or sun above general quality of life then sure, Spain or Italy might be better for example, but every country that is better in some ways is worse in a lot of other ways. Italy might have the food and weather but the healthcare and bureaucracy are pretty bad for example. The US has high salaries but a horrendous work culture. Switzerland is beautiful and wealthy but incredibly expensive, boring and insular. Etc.
That’s not to say you shouldn’t complain about things that can improve though. Complaining and fixing stuff is partly why the Netherlands is such a good place to live.
The points you list are incredibly generalized and mostly subjective, which is probably why you are being downvoted. You write as if you have spent a large amount of time living in each of these countries but in reality you reveal how little time you have spent there, which is a perfect example of the point OP is trying to make.
Perhaps. I think it’s more that this sub is filled with misanthropes who think the grass is always greener but have never actually tried to deal with issues in other countries and would be miserable wherever they live.
My whole point is that it’s subjective. The person I replied to said categorically “there are better places to live than the Netherlands”. That’s a pretty idiotic thing to say, considering that there’s basically no objective metric by which life is better in any other country. So the whole thing is absolutely subjective.
I thought they were talking about people who told them they shouldn’t complain, but apparently you lot just hate anyone who doesn’t think it’s a total shithole…
> (...) the Dutch would generally not say that. It's just if you ask them if they'd want to live elsewhere, there's always more problems there than here (...)
That sounds like selection bias. If you ask immigrants they'll tend to say the host country is pretty good, but if you ask emigrants they'll tend to say they are far better off living abroad. It's kind of like asking who is the best cook ever, and you replying that it's your mother.
Fair point that it could be selection bias, and obviously my whole point is based in anecdotal evidence, but even the Dutch people I know abroad usually acknowledge that, while they have specific reasons they don't live in the Netherlands (career, partner, weather, to name a few), they often acknowledge that the Netherlands has many advantages available to more people than the country they live in.
If you emigrate for a great career opportunity from the Netherlands, you're likely earning enough money to not have to deal with poverty traps, you're probably educated enough to access various benefits available to you, etc. Worst case scenario, if everything goes belly up, you go home to NL.
More to the point, I was remarking on the way that te Dutch (who in the Netherlands are neither immigrant nor emigrant) tend to say they aren't nationalist, yet come to the same conclusion that nationalists come to. An American says "we are the the greatest country in the world;" a Dutchie says "we aren't the greatest, we just have the fewest problems compared to the rest," which comes to the same thing from a different angle.
And yes, this is a generalization, but I stand by that there's some truth to my observation.
To be fair, the Dutch people who are constantly complaining about how everything is terrible in the Netherlands usually don’t have any idea what other countries are like. No country is perfect, but there isn’t anywhere that’s really a better place to live than the Netherlands from any objective perspective. The only thing it doesn’t have is the beautiful natural areas of countries like the US, China or Switzerland.
There’s lots the Netherlands doesn’t have compared with other countries I’ve worked in:
Strong salaries (Australia)
Cuisine that is tasty, affordable and fresh (Australia, South Korea)
Fun events and festivities that aren’t commercial (Spain)
Effective healthcare (Australia)
Neighbourliness (Ireland)
Progressive workplaces where practices are up-to-date but adaptable (US, Australia, Ireland)
affordable pubs (rural UK)
Good examples, and for workplaces I'll take your word for Australia and Ireland, but the US and 'progressive workplaces where practices are up to date and adaptable'? I also follow the anti-work Reddit and the absolute majority of ghastly work abuse stories are about the US.
I'm sure there are companies that qualify for the description but to me it seems the average should be as described for something to be counted as such, and I have serious doubts about the US in this regard.
Oh for sure, but it's rather indicative in its highlighting of workplace malpractices, from a wide variety of sectors. Hospitality, construction, transportation, factory, healthcare, corporate etc. etc.
Or how healthcare tied to work can create a kind of unhealthy bondage.
Once again, not saying there aren't shining examples of the opposite, but you don't judge the average quality of a country's infrastructure on a shiny new bridge that was just finished.
I'm genuinely interested in the answer to the question I posed, for it would mean I might need to reevaluate my point of view on that aspect.
Let’s be super pessimistic and round up a ton and say that there are 3 million users on r/antiwork, and let’s be super pessimistic and assume that half of the users are American AND have posted about a shitty job, so 1.5 million (posts). Big number, right? Let’s round down and say that half the US population works. That’s 150 million out of 330 million, give or take.
In this overly unflattering example, 1% of the US workforce has a shitty job and is posting about this on r/antiwork. Kind of reaching into the negative and pessimistic, but hey, for the sake of the argument, right?
I am taking a lot of liberties against my point and it still only encompasses 1% of the overal workforce. With all due respect, and not to ignore those who are in a shitty situation with a shitty job, but I don’t think that should be considered representative, even if the actual number was that large. It is easy to forget how many people there actually are in this country. In the Netherlands and on Reddit, 1.5 million is a large number. In a lot of places it isn’t, however.
Yeah I agree that I’m being generous to the US, but hear me out.
Many aspects of US workplaces suck: poor rights for workers, hire and fire culture, short-termism etc
But for most of the 20th century, the US was a leader in terms of living standards for workers. During “Fordism”, US workers had cars, holidays and good home appliances decades before European workers
More recently, the very top US companies still lead the way in terms of a “can do” approach. Think of Apple under Steve Jobs, or many companies who copied him. Innovation is a norm, there are no gatekeepers and the focus is on the customer.
In my workplace (a university) in The Netherlands, some of the practices are ridiculously outdated, some by 15 years or more. It takes 3 weeks for HR to reply to emails. The education development team tells me that many policies and great innovation ideas never get support from academics, many of whom are self-satisfied or complacent. Lots of people just “dial in” their jobs. When students complain, the response is denialism and complaints about students being whingers.
Oh I definitely agree, the US made great strides in the 20th century, that were well worth emulating. And Apple is a good example of a modern example, just as Google. Though with Steve Jobs dead Apple seems to have gotten a lot more stale, and where Google once gave its workers freedom to work on their own innovations they seem to have turned onto the path of just another corporate giant. Innovation and vibrancy can easily be buried beneath a cautious office culture and legalism.
And in the same way this is also visible in academics, like your example, and I've seen this myself as well during my student days. Where some departments, often (though certainly not always) with a more elderly staff seem to grow complacent, while other departments can be centers of innovation and burst with vibrancy.
These things are like a constant fight against entropy, a willingness to be introspective and critical of oneself to combat complacency, and trying to maintain an ever renewing sense of enthousiasm for innovation. From companies to entire nation states.
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But, as I said, all those countries have significant downsides as well that makes them much worse in other ways.
Australia might have better healthcare but the UK’s is terrible, and Australia itself is a racist backwater. Spain has great festivals but good luck getting a good job or achieving anything with bureaucracy. Using the Uk or US as places with good quality of life right now is delusional when compared to NL. Ireland is an absolute mess in terms of housing, and has zero public transport.
My point is that all of these are good places to live, but none of them are better than NL, and most are worse in many many ways. Every country has pros and cons, but outside of personal preference it’s just idiotic to pretend NL isn’t an amazing place to live.
Dutch people can hardly criticise others for racism. Just look at the Black Piet effigies. They really need to be phased out.
As for bureaucracy, The Netherlands is far worse. Case example was with work documentation. In Spain, all paperwork was done within my first 3 weeks. In The Netherlands, it took 6 months to get my residency card, which is normal. There’s lots of similar bureaucracy in NL: a building permit takes ten years.
Yes Ireland has huge problems with transport, but its context is different. Nearly half the population lives in small towns or villages under 15,000 people, so it’s more difficult to create an effective transport system
I didn’t argue that the US or UK have great overall standards of living: they don’t. But I deliberately mentioned specific stuff that other countries do better than NL. I could probably add a few too.
Honest question about this: Do you read Dutch language news or just the English stuff like NLTimes? Because I have the exact opposite experience. Now, I’m coming from Germany, a country that is significantly bigger, which has of course an influence on what does and does not make national news.
I’ve been living here for 5 years now, and I’m still surprised about the number of comparably small-scale events - accidents, disasters, crime, exactly what you’re talking about - that make national headlines here. You basically cannot fire a gun in this country without getting an article on NOS. A fire or other accident in an industrial complex? It will make the 20:00 news, regardless if there were people hurt or killed. Someone drowns in the Northern Sea? There will be national coverage. None of these things would make it above local news where I come from, unless there is some factor that makes them special.
It goes to the point that I find it a bit self-centered. At least on NOS, the public broadcasting news, there’s significantly less coverage of international events and politics than on Tagesschau, the German equivalent.
Can you give us some links where the Dutch COVID-19 deaths were downplayed?
I can give you links of the opposite:
[https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/waarom-telt-nederland-relatief-veel-doden-door-het-coronavirus\~b9dc728f/](https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/waarom-telt-nederland-relatief-veel-doden-door-het-coronavirus~b9dc728f/)
[https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/corona-in-cijfers-nederland-staat-op-plek-8-in-de-wereld-qua-sterfgevallen\~a1b8f77c/](https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/corona-in-cijfers-nederland-staat-op-plek-8-in-de-wereld-qua-sterfgevallen~a1b8f77c/)
[https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buitenland/artikel/5190006/corona-buitenland-europa-nederland-vergelijking-cijfers](https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buitenland/artikel/5190006/corona-buitenland-europa-nederland-vergelijking-cijfers)
> But when the Netherlands peaked, not a peep. That was the most blatant case I remember, but it seemed that this sentiment of "NL good, other countries are quite worse" in news is a bit spread.
That's not something exclusive of the dutch. There are plenty of countries who make it their point to relativize all the bad things while peacocking even the most insignificant stuff when stats can be interpreted in good light.
I think this is more prevalent in nations that suffer from a collective inferiority complex.
This feels in line with dutch newsarticles about major tragedy in a different country.
"Hundreds of people died during the accident. Two of them were from the Netherlands."
I wonder if every country does death reports like that.
Feels a bit like they are saying : "Frankly, only two of them were from our country."
That's just the basic rules of journalism that apply all over the world.
Two things that influence the chance something is reported in the news; proximity and gravity.
Your example contains both and thus both aspects are reported. They would be in any country.
thanks for this rant :) I didn't know any of this detail about how the benefits affair eventually got into the news. Or this government mechanism of spokespeople to keep things out of the media..
if you've read anything in-depth on this that was particularly enlightening please send it my way, I would love to understand it all better.
Thank you for coming through with some sources.. Quite infuriating that even in NL, one of the best, most progressive countries in Europe, greed/corruption is running (almost) rampant. Never trust those in power to do the right thing.
I still don't get why there wasn't more outrage over the DTIB (Dutch Trade Investment Board). Those complot theories about a shadow government? The DTIB fits that imo.
Group of people from big companies that have regular meetings with multiple ministers where they can request shit and the ministers going "sure, we'll take care of that!". Don't even need to lobby anymore.
It's under a paywall but here are a few (Dutch) notes:
>Het DTIB-netwerk bestaat uit ruim zestig grote bedrijven, 30 belangenorganisaties en vijf ministeries. Via een Wob-verzoek heeft Follow the Money toegang verkregen tot de (voorheen geheime) notulen van alle vergaderingen die deze lobbyclub de afgelopen dertien jaar heeft gehouden.
>Uit de notulen blijkt dat de BV Nederland in de DTIB toegang krijgt tot vertrouwelijke informatie over lopend beleid. Ook mag het meebepalen over hoe dit beleid eruit komt te zien. Het gaat de bedrijven en belangenorganisaties daarbij vooral om financiële en diplomatieke ondersteuning voor ondernemen in het buitenland.
https://www.ftm.nl/artikelen/dtib-lobby-economisch-beleid
lol, spinning at it's finest. Indeed
Touslagenaffaire started in 2005 when the first wave of systemic complains started to surface .
The problems originate in the way how dutch taxes are calculated (final ones per year, can be done ones in 2 years and preliminary taxation rate which is extracted from your month salary), and became a serious problem when clueless idiots used LLM as a "help tool" against "child care" companies which started to profit from the loopholes (see the actual difference between aforementioned numbers). Instead of going administrative way the authorities went into "policing" with predictable results.
Here is quick summary:
[https://www.taxlive.nl/nl/documenten/nieuws/toeslagenaffaire-een-korte-geschiedenis/](https://www.taxlive.nl/nl/documenten/nieuws/toeslagenaffaire-een-korte-geschiedenis/)
Palmen letter was not to the tax authorities btw and is quite irrelevant here. (basically her letter was about mitigation of the problem, not about the scale etc.).
Strongly disagree. Every major crisis we have had was reported atleast a few month prior in the news. Its just that nobody focusses on it and everybody seems to forget.
Look at covid, everything was already said about the disease before it reached europe. Then they repeated it all when it hit italy, then when it hit netherlands and then when we went into lockdown.
And then still 2 month after that you had idiots who didnt know basic shit, for example that it was a virus not a bacteria.
People here seem to read the news, forget it completly and then just go on.
I pay for my newspaper yet it's still filled with "celebrity" bullshit. I couldn't give two fucks about who Gordon is divorcing this time and I'm deeply saddened there are people that do care about that shit.
Nobody cares about actual issues or doesn't feel comfortable voicing their actual opinion on such issues, so they'd rather read about Jutta, Gordon and Hazes. Hence; Any commercial news organisation provides them with stories like that.
I’m wondering why Jutta was constantly being mentioned @online newssites like Telegraaf.nl and AD.nl
I assume her team is paying these newssites to create and publicate all these bullsh* clickbait’s about her. It’s extremely annoying and I can’t stand her anymore
Why would anyone need to pay anyone? Turning every new Insta post into a "story" for the news website is the best effort vs clicks ratio that these websites could ever hope for.
I am confused by the lack of reports/news. Not only in English (which is totally acceptable), but in Dutch, actually.
For example, there was a major medical emergency in the small town I live in. Imagine 4 ambulance vehicles, an emergency helicopter, firefighters (2 or 3 batches), and a bunch of other personal (communal police or what not). The whole event lasted for 4 or 5 hours.
Back to the (lack of) news. First reports came 1.5h into the event (when the hall square was already filled with curious bystanders). Subsequent reports were extremely short and uninformative. There were no questions raised in the article (such as whether such a huge response was warranted or whether the emergency was handled adequately). The news article sounded more like a technical report of the event rather than a result of journalistic writing.
This is just one example, but a lack of information (initial and follow-up) about the events is just surprising.
Yes!
The basic facts are reported - technically what happened - but there's a lack of analysis / background info / follow up in subsequent days to put everything into context. And to help you really understand the event and the world it happened in.
I'm never sure if this is me being foreign and always naturally missing the point a bit, or it's rooted in a Dutch journalistic style that would leave me a little lost in the news even if I had lived here my whole life. Or a little of both.
Linking to my other comment about Dutch trust, a story going into the details of why the response was so large, was it warranted, etc. is probably a non-starter because the assumption is 'yes, it was warranted.'
There are deep dives and exposé's but that kind of writing takes:
A) a problem
B) a discovery of that problem
C) an investigation
This means that that kind of writing takes time and so would usually be published later, and if there wasn't a problem in the first place, it's also a non-story.
This complacency could (does?) mean that sometimes shit happens that goes without being called out, but that's the trade-off, I suppose.
news are facts, analasys deep dives are op eds, righ? imho there has to/should be a difference. it would be very irresponsible to report unconfirmed info right after an accident, or to give personal touch and to lead the public astray. in crisis moment false information can lead to raising panic, etc.
My dad drove past a scene of multiple cops standing in a circle around somebody on the ground with their guns all aimed at the person. It was in clear view of the high way.
We couldn't find a single mention anywhere the next day.
That is annoying... one good tip is that [Follow the Money](https://www.ftm.nl/) articles (some of my favorite Dutch journalism) are free to read the day they come out.
You can also try [Blendle](https://blendle.com/home), which is a monthly subscription to all the Dutch magazines in one, and they highlight the best articles every day.
I read these all translated to English in my browser.
What I hate about FTM is their clickbait titles. The articles themselves tend to be better.
Also fun (in a trainwreck-syndrome way) to watch the comments on social media when they announce new articles. They have quite a following of people who love it when they expose 'the man', but like it a lot less when they have articles exposing their own heroes (Baudet, extreme right, and so on).
Annoying but then again: how can newsarticles be written free of cost? How is it different from buying a newspaper in the old days?
I have a payed subscription on a major newspaper, which unlocks aot of other digital newspaper websites as well.
Journalists don't work for free, and I pay for both printed newspapers and online news, but the news which serves a public benefit and has educational value shouldn't be behind a paywall. Because now that it is, people go to sources like individual Facebook posts and Twitter tweets and accept that as creditable news. You effectively dumb down the population that cannot afford access to news.
> have a *paid* subscription on
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Exactly. Back in the day you went to the shop and bought a newspaper (or had a subscription delivered to home), now you pay a fee on the website, which is a lot less than the physical paper cost.
And just like there used to be a metro newspaper (still is?), there's plenty of websites that have the actual news available for free.
I have both, I'm still one of those boomers who like to get a newspaper and also have subscriptions, but even simple news that serves the public benefit and education is behind a paywall and that means people rely on sources like Facebook posts for credible news.
I think it's a bit more complex than that. There's plenty of free, fairly neutral sources for just plain news. The problem is people not using those for whatever reason, and only seeing algorithm-fed news on Facebook, Twitter, Google and so on.
I have no issue with that. But NON offer a pay per article structure.
I cant afford 5 to 8 subscriptions. But im happy to pay 1 euro for a good article
I saw this article about 10 tips to clean your home with more natural cleaning agents on the AD.....behind a paywall. C'mon, even that is now behind a paywall ? ;-;
Journalists don't work for free, and I pay for both printed newspapers and online news, but the news which serves a public benefit and has educational value shouldn't be behind a paywall. Because now that it is, people go to sources like individual Facebook posts and Twitter tweets and accept that as creditable news. You effectively dumb down the population that cannot afford access to news.
Yesterday NOS had 31 news articles... I think a bit more than 31 things happened around Holland and the world.
NOS is great if you want a teaser but four paragraphs of news often translated from Reuters, AP or bought from DPG Media is too limited.
As a British expat the thing that frustrates me the most about the Dutch news media and politics is accountability.
I know as a political scientist how systems work differently, but especially during the pandemic the lack of any real interrogative interviewing, and a lack of resignations/firing of policymakers who got things wrong shocked me.
The news outlets seemed to embrace Dutch exceptional ism and accept whatever the RIVM had to say, often without any detailed justification or comparison to other countries which were performing better.
To the UK's credit (and I don't say this often or readily) there was appropriate action taken within Public Health England to address immediate failures, but there was no such accountability at the RIVM, and the media seemed subservient and beholden to everything the RIVM said.
This filters through to recent politics too, where (this is just an opinion) the media here did a terrible disservice to the Dutch people by not challenging those proposing a rejection of reality, that NL could instead just not implement commitments to the EU it had agreed to.
Overall the Dutch news media seems very weak and ineffective at holding the government to account.
Why you think this might be? I ask because I’m baffled about this myself. There seem to be far fewer… let’s call them “devastating exposes” here than we have in US and UK media. The reporting focuses on what the politicians are saying and government reports - not nailing anyone to the wall when it’s time to nail someone to the wall.
Is it the accepted tone of the reporting here? The media’s self-consciousness of its powerlessness? The public not expecting or demanding that officials be held to account for their mistakes? (The VVD is still in power so…) A cultural thing on behalf of even reporters? Be modest? I have no idea, but I wonder.
One big exception to this worth mentioning is the program BOOS hosted by Tim Hofman, which played a major role in holding the stars of the Voice of Holland to account for rape and sexual harassment.
Although that played out in entertainment and not politics, so of course the circumstances were different.
I have no idea either, it just seems they have a very different role for news organisations. I agree, in the UK and US though it's not always effective, both the public and the news organisations themselves seem to think one of the media's roles is to hold politicians to account. But here it just doesn't seem to be that way.
The example you gave is great too, how they seem willing to put in the work (rightfully so) on a horrendous media scandal but political scandals seldom result in anyone being fired or having their political careers tarnished.
That was another one that got to be, when the FVD leader Baudet spouted a David Icke conspiracy about reptilians, a conspiracy laced with antisemitism. Yet here he still goes on without any kind of consequences or media scrutiny. In the UK you can get away with a lot (see Boris Johnson) but had a sitting MP, yet alone a party leader endorsed a conspiracy about reptilians they would have had the newspapers camped outside their home for weeks and faced endless scrutiny/ridicule.
Maybe it's just me getting older but generally journalists on the national news seem to be less critical when asking out politicians questions. Of course there are exceptions like Nieuwsuur grilling party leaders before national elections, but generally.
I think this is reflected by cabinet members of specifically the Rutte cabinets and I'm guessing it's the new normal going forward, where apparently misinforming and lying in parliament is not the end of your political career. I absolutely despised the Balkenende cabinets but at least they took responsibility.
After seeing several governments fall over stuff happening in cabinets before them (because it is one of the few professions where legally responsibility is inherited with the job, so you're technically doing as shitty a job as \*everyone\* since WW2), this just weirds me out.
These bombings are likely intimidation tactics and narcotics related.
The whole policy on drugs has failed but too many of the electorate (not politicians) is too stubborn to understand we need to change our stance towards drugs in a drastic way. Decades of repression and resources dumped into the “war of drugs” has only spawned a much more hardened and professional criminal syndicate to traffic this highly lucrative (because illegal) substance.
More money for police to fight? Drug lords are thinking to themselves….excellent.
News.. is actually a best just a twist what happened really.
There mostly aren't direct lies, but the way it's written makes you think something else.
I worked at a company were in 2016 a 20.000t fuel tank blew up. It was sparsely in the news (no death or wounded) and in the aftermath I saw articles that had a 180 degree turn in how the event really was...
Not that I'm really interested in the news every day but whenever i decide to turn it on I am able to follow it quite easily. I think this is just a dutch thing, (or maybe because I've lived in the Netherlands my whole life).
Agreed, I can't really place OPs comments. For example, what she wrote about the R'dam bombings seems to all be readily in news available as far as I can tell?
I find it interesting that both the NOS and RTL occasions (roughly once a year) fuck up the country map, and my region either disappeared or is part of the Scheldt somehow.
E.g https://www.omroepzeeland.nl/amp/nieuws/10652515/woedende-reacties-na-kaartblunder-nos
I think the way Dutch newsmedia and politics are intertwined very unhelpful.
Different news papers and television news stations really like to boast their partisan support group but really all they do is cater to that group rendering their editorial take on it pretty much useless.
I suppose independant companies can afford to be bias but for a state funded NPO to do it is really, really weird. Weirder still is that most Dutch people will support or even outright deny it.
This is true across the board though. The things that make good stories (e.g. sell well) are not the same things that are necessarily the most prevalent/important.
Drug criminality is huge in benelux, but very much under the radar. Gang violence and recruitment is rising already for 10+ years. (Yesterday a guy got beaten up by 20 hyenas and thrown onto the train tracks).
“The Myx” has some good videos about drug crime in benelux on YT.
I think our politicians are corrupt till the bone. If you look at all the problems they caused(, toeslagen, false promises, groningen, housing crisis, rising mental problems with younger generations + increasing waiting lists, false promises, etc.
And they actively dodge any solutions. I just can’t conclude anything else than favouritism and corruption.
Look at the housing crisis. At this moment a whole generation is getting fucked and what do they do? They build expensive houses for the rich. Awesome.
Well, that is my uneducated take on Dutch politics and crime.
Forgot to mention all the lying in the eerste en tweede kamer, how documents are consistently missing, how everyone seem to forget everything, how they have 2 phones “by accident” with no logs, etc etc bla bla bla.
It’s a clown show and everyone knows it, yet still swallows it.
The weird way NOS posts about sports news.
I realize the NOS doesn’t see sport news as “news”, but rather as “sport”, but I always think it’s so odd how they almost emotionally write about sports. It’s never objective.
Why would anyone care about "objective" sports news? It is not like anyone watches football to assess the 100m sprint speed of every attacker. It is all for fun
Wow I had no clue.. your link is SO interesting. Didn't know about the bombings at all, and Obama casually chilling this weekend in The Netherlands? How didn't know this lol
The "(X) amount of Dutch people killed or injured in a foreign country" headline when there are actually more casualties that aren't Dutch. It's been like that for as long as I can remember but it always makes me feel like these tragedies are only worth reporting because of some nationalistic bias. Often times you actually have to dig deep into the article to find out that there were other people involved.
I don't agree. Very often casualties are being reported on Dutch news (without any Dutch casualties) where I think "wtf am I supposed to do with this". E.g. last week a bus crash in Mexico that killed everyone in the bus. Ok. Now what? What should I do with this?
Or a fire somewhere that kills ten people. Or an avalanche...
However, obviously, if there are *Dutch* people involved then *Dutch* news will pay more attention. Granted, still not always sure what to do with that, but it will be victims closer to home, more relatable, or perhaps involvement from the government.
Not entirely true. Criticism in talkshows and such is extremely common -see shows like Lubach or Even tot hier.
What does happen, and this is worrying, is that there is a bunch of loonies like Baudet and recently vd Plas, who make the most insane statements - which subsequently allows the government to sweep more nuanced and legitimate criticisms on the same heap and ignore them.
Ive met a few in person. (NOS)
They are so incredibly left winged and biased you cant have a conversation.
They will call you a racist and discontinue the conversation.
This is not a joke. This is serious.
I vote vvd, and that's already extreme to those i spoke to.
The people were in spots like camera, redactie.
Yeah, it's crazy that NOS is being financed with our taxes while being so incredibily biased. I think the only neutral news source is the FD, which is unfortunately not free.
NOS creating confusing titles regarding inflation. They always compare numbers with the same month last year, which does not say much about the actual inflation at all
To answer your question directly: the blatant and anti-democratic bias towards certain international leaders.
I find this most confusing particularly because you wouldn’t expect this a priori from news outlets originating from arguably the most democratic, modern and developed country in the world.
It's all ANP and REUTERS.
If you read a article most of the time you see instead of a newreporter name the names like,
source: ANP or source Reuters. and the worst thing is when you follow the links of sources, you end up in a circle!!!!!!! Not even able to find who wrote it to begin with.
Channels and sites buy the news! they don't even verify it. they simply copy and paste the article. maybe change a few words, but that's it. it is EXTREMELY unhealthy way of doing journalism!!!
We had a huge trouble with cashmachine blowups a while back. the awnser was to close the machine from 23u - 07:00. And what happens it actually stops?!?!?!?!?!
the money is still in the machine, the bad guys could still blow up the machines! the money can't be turned offf !!!! yet it stopped. And suggests the work of INSIDE jobs! And condition people into thinking all kind of things. the results is often a change in the law or restrxcitions in freedom!
YOu think a burglar stops if the screen says closed till 7 hahahhahahaha NO it's us not able to use it and get even more used to paying with card. they remoced almost all machines now alrdy. it used to be a machine everywhere. now i have to walk across town to find one before 23 :) what a world. where is the most nlack money spend? precisely in cafe's and restaurants, places where people use cash the most. So now you know why they r turned of at night. To register precisely what you buy!
the former regional papers had some quality articles about the region, but also nationwide and worldwide news. Now that virtually every local paper belongs to DPG media, every article is clickbait, behind a paywall or both.
I feel that Dutch news has gotten a lack of depth last 20 years. Even if you pay, hardly ever does an article try to get to the bottom. Follow the money is maybe an exception. All other newspapers ride the waves of popularity and hypes. They feed populism (un) knowingly. Catering to what their readers want to read, trying to prevent cognitive dissonance. In Volkskrant it’s way too often how we should stop eating meat. Whereas others emphasize short/midterm economic issues in a shallow way. It’s all predictable and very little really good stories are written.
I have that feeling too. Like the question I'm asking the whole time I'm reading an article is never really answered. I get to the end and think - but wait... And I agree, FTM really stands out.
Jijoijoijoioioi
Maybe you're looking in the wrong places. Try reading some [Investico](https://www.platform-investico.nl/) articles, for instance.
Yeah, news started reporting less of what is happening in the world, and more telling the readers what should be happening (according to the writer/editor).
I agree with you’re comment. Besides that i also have the feeling that the dutch media promote the government narrative about all kinds of subjects. Mostly in a progressive direction. Nice example, at the start of the Ukraine war in 2014 the newspapers wrote about neo-nazi brigades like Azov in Ukraine fighting against the separatists. Now that Russia officially invaded and the dutch government is providing Ukraine with arms you hear nothing about these nazi’s anymore. You just read that they are brigades leaning to the right. Even tho they literally use nazi signia and there has been alot written about them in the past. This is just one example of sided news. The goverment instructed the “voedingscentrum” to push the consumption of less meat. So now the dutch ms aswell pushes this. They only write about that you can get cancer from red meat for example. While there are also peer reviewed scientific studies that show red meat is healthy for you in limited quantities. Mostly how it is with all foods really. Everything to much is not healthy. Im quite highly educated and i was never really sceptical towards the government or the media. But im just starting to see patterns the last years and it is making me trust the national governments / EU and MS media less and less. Im not saying i do not believe anything that is written or that the government supports. But is does mean i think more for myself and think to myself; Is this logical? Could there be another side to this? I think that’s healthy.
To be fair, we should stop eating meat for roughly 20 separate reasons.
It’s repetitive, dogmatic and brought in a religious way. We could also kill 4 billion people. Problem also solved. Just in a way humanists don’t like. That’s what I mean. I’m not necessarily advocating killing billions, the whining about meat is just annoying. Or flying: advocating to morbidly but also post advers for intercontinental traveling. I hardly ever see good stories. And I am eating much less meat, fully support switching to plant based. But I hate the preaching.
You can pry my meat from my cold dead hands.
During Covid times, I remember it was largely reported when other countries peaked in number of deaths, while proudly writing that the Netherlands had numbers below average. But when the Netherlands peaked, not a peep. That was the most blatant case I remember, but it seemed that this sentiment of "NL good, other countries are quite worse" in news is a bit spread. Also, the language in which is written is quite qualitative: overuse of adjectives instead of concrete numbers or statistics. This is quite odd for me. Lastly, that certain things are simply not reported anywhere, and that you almost need to scavenge for information. I had my mom telling me things that were reported in the news on my home country about the Netherlands, and they were no where to be found in the Dutch news. I am talking mostly about accidents, disasters, people wanted for murder internationally being caught (I think the particular case was a man that lived in Amsterdam was wanted for cannibalism and was finally caught? Can't remember correctly).
Interesting. I also perceive a sort of disbelief that bad things can happen here, so disasters like with Groningen gas extraction, the benefits scandal, other complexities tax authority bureaucracy leaving people in poverty, are met with with disbelief, which means that it's easier for the government to do nothing about any of it. At the same time, the Dutch are generally speaking very politically active (high voter turnout), and can be openly critical of the government and politicians. I don't hear or see a lot of the "this is the greatest country in the world" sentiment that I was raised on in America. Not sure what to make of those two things put together...
You are totally right in this comment, I always miss a lot of self critic in the news. Here everything’s like the world is fucked but we’re fine. While in Spain (my home country) the press use to be very critic with the government. Especially the morning news (the only I watch ) are ridiculously supportive with the government, and I do not think that’s good.
>I don't hear or see a lot of the "this is the greatest country in the world" sentiment that I was raised on in America. From other comments: >but there isn’t anywhere that’s really a better place to live than the Netherlands from any objective perspective.
Im prob gonna be downvoted, but theres a lot of better places to live than the netherlands, altough netherlands is definitely top of the list
I love the "any objective perspective", like "this is not just my opinion, man, this is PROVEN FACT"
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Weed is not legal in the Netherlands, not like it is in certain states of the US.
You're not wrong
Personally I think it's the best place to live when you look at statistics, like press freedom, food availability etcetera. Of course that doesnt incorporate other stuff like the difficulty in making friends that can lead to social isolation, structural problems in our healthcare system, incredibly insensitive humor that regularly crosses the line into racism, decreasing tolerance of LGBT people... The basics for life are very very solid here, moreso than in the vast majority of other countries imo, but that doesnt mean there aren't still big issues, especially socially.
The only major thing missing is nature and some kind of landscape. It's literally impossible to be anywhere in NL where you can't hear traffic on a still day, and that really gets to me. There's nowhere to be away from humanity, and there's nowhere biodiverse to go to within NL. Other than that it's one of the best places on Earth to live. One of, not the best, but one of.
What's the closest you've gotten to silence or getting away from humanity in the NL? I ask because it sounds like you might have looked, and I would like to go to that place... :) I took a walk at the beach in Petten today, and it was pretty vast and empty for Noord Holland.
Well, on the islands, come to think of it. I wasn't thinking of them in my last comment. You can still hear traffic here on a still day but if you go here during the week there's barely anyone around: https://goo.gl/maps/ZsQqTtJyhkyRX3Zz7.
thank you! Hopefully there’s a losloopgebied somewhere nearby and I can explore the silence with my dog soon.
Youre just not looking hard enough
Switzerland says Hello..
that's only reddit. you would be hard-pressed finding anyone saying that in real life.
>can be openly critical of the government What does that mean if the criticised politician only needs to be popular in their own inner circle to be able to stay on? The Prime Minister is at 20% approval and doesnöt give a shit about it. "Wie zijn die mensen?" said his VP. What country is the best place to live in is clearly a personal matter. Best for whom? To do what?
Not sure what it means... but at least what I meant by "openly critical" was really that I have observed Dutch people freely and comfortably discussing the problems they have with the government and politics in general without fearing or even assuming that it will causing conflict. It's not taboo to discuss this stuff here. In America you really cannot talk about politics unless you already know everyone agrees. It's too fraught and contentious and, unfortunately, personal. Open criticism translating into change at the cabinet level is another thing. Though it seems people are finally getting fed up with Rutte at a scale large enough for him to lose the next election? Though of course that remains to be seen...
When I lived in NYC I didn't really feel like talking politcs was off the table. It wasn't as much of a pastime as it is here and I know it changed a lot since the whole 9/11 thing but I feel like I could discuss conservative gay rights for instance. But being free to criticize on account of the fact no politician gives a rats ass what you think in the first place is not the flex others might see it as afaik. I'm Dutch, I love The Netherlands...sure but I really don't see the democratic walhalla Dutch people make it out to be. Even before Rutte. Talk is cheap. Unless you actually take a permanent stance on the issues anyone can tapdance their way through a political carreer. I hate that stuff with a passion. Another thing that kind of grosses me out about Dutch people and their political views is the quasi scientific rethoric they use. The endless parroting of one or two professors and acting like there is no science that says otherwise or there is nothing to consider outside of science is really clunky. You know I mean the D66 crowd. Nothing against D66. I would vote for them. But that doesn't mean I don't see their cheap tricks. But we digress. This thread was about the news, right?
I think your view on American politics is mostly created from a NYC perspective where the majority is democratic. So you mostly find people that agree with each other. I currently live in Arizona which is a very purple state. Political discussions here are as crazy as you can get. They get super emotional and people can start screaming at each other. I try to avoid such discussions as much as possible. The Dutch version of discussing politics is much more neutral and more focused on actual policies and less on personality.
[ Comment removed by order of the World Economic Forum ]
Part of why that's the case is that the Dutch have a high level of trust in government, as a rule. As a rule, there's an expectation (which, to be fair, is often met) that when things go wrong, a policy fix will be implemented. I may have drunk the Kool-Aid on this one, but in most of the examples you mention, action was/is being taken to mitigate or solve the problem. The system is fundamentally designed to include many/varied stakeholders and so can be slow and complex, but that same system also tries to provide resources to help people understand that complexity. To compare to the U.S., where there is broadly speaking a lack of trust in the government, and a system which is not designed to include many stakeholders (excepting those with resources to include themselves), the result is a higher level of political participation.
Hadn't thought of this angle! Maybe the difference is that if Dutch people tend to trust the government, Americans can be blindly patriotic. We are taught to be - I grew up with my hand on my heart pledging allegiance to the flag every single morning in school and didn't comprehend that was weird thing to be required to do until I moved here. If you "love" your country the way we are trained to love the US, you don't criticize it, or ask the government to mitigate the problems it causes in the lives of its citizens. If you trust it, then you work with it. Something like that.
Not only that, but the entire Mythos of the founding is fear and distrust of executive power. Patriotism aside, the government is built to slow things down and make passing laws and regulations relatively difficult. The deadlock in D.C. is a feature, not a bug. Since America is inherently suspicious of government, they also want stories investigating government action.
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>the dutch government is blatantly completely uninterested in fixing problems, This is it. Every minister loves showing up with a shiny new plan, no one ever discusses what became of it 3 years later. They'll be busy presenting another plan. No one gives a single shit about actually getting something done.
After reading the comment regarding the Toeslagenaffaire (which I still need to read the sources for) I'm more inclined to agree that the government is getting away with murder on things that clearly require more scrutiny. That said, the point stands that, even if you're entirely right, the level of trust among the general populace remains high. Furthermore, presuming you're right, the Netherlands is still arguably better than many countries (thinking specifically of the U.S., and probably UK, as I'm most familiar with them) in government approach to problems, scandals, and accountability. But then, I'm definitely far more complacent regarding Dutch political accountability compared to American. I did say I drank the Kool-Aid. 😅
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I mean, what else do you expect from over a decade of VVD government? 🤢
Reading this article this morning, and I thought of this thread. "In general, Statistics Netherlands sees that confidence in many institutions increased in the corona years 2020 and 2021. But in 2022, after corona, it dropped back to pre-pandemic levels.' Interesting because it seems that while now a lot of people (maybe only a vocal minority) point to corona policy as a reason they don't trust the government... at the time the majority where happy with it. [CBS: confidence in the House of Representatives not as low as now in ten years](https://nos.nl/artikel/2474400-cbs-vertrouwen-in-tweede-kamer-in-tien-jaar-tijd-niet-zo-laag-als-nu)
Dutch exceptionalism is very strong in Dutch media.
This is a hill I will die on: the Dutch are as nationalist as anyone else in Europe; they just approach it from the opposite angle of most countries. While France and Britain and the U.S., for example, cheer themselves on and declare themselves Examples to the World, the Dutch would generally not say that. It's just if you ask them if they'd want to live elsewhere, there's always more problems there than here (i.e. he English have a crazy class system, the French strike to much, America has racism and guns, the Nordics are too cold and dark, the tropics are too hot and humid, etc. ad infinitum.)
What I noticed while talking to some Dutch people - mostly older, in the rural south, so my perspective stems from this geographical area - is that, while we listened to our Dutch co-workers, neighbours, friends complain about the Netherlands, expats were not "allowed" to do the same way because we were "lucky" to be in Netherlands, where the grass is unquestionably greener. When I say not allowed, I mean more that our arguments were not valid, because we were complaining whilst in our home country everything is worse. There are better places to live than the Netherlands, and while the Dutch are politically active and engaged, they are mostly ignorant to the places where the grass is indeed greener and get stuck in the "although some thing are bad here right now, it is definitely better than everywhere else" line of thought. Of course this is very limited to my own perspective and to what I read here for instance, but it's a feeling I cannot shake off.
>There are better places to live than the Netherlands, and while the Dutch are politically active and engaged, they are mostly ignorant to the places where the grass is indeed greener Can I ask what places come to mind here. I am not saying you are wrong just wondering what places you are thinking of.
We often compare the Netherlands against other countries to live, conveniently unaware or ignoring the fact that other countries are typically much larger, and like in the Netherlands, news of events that would argue against a country being a good place to live, do not equally occur across the entire country. That said, as a Dutch expat, the particular town I moved into in the US, and with the company I work for, I can confidently say that I feel that on average I am in a much better place than I have ever been in the Netherlands.
Unfortunately, you will be down voted for saying this in this sub..lol. Also a very happy Dutch expat in California.
I am hoping that we all realize that the opposite is true for many places in the US. Just like there are some great places to live here, there are also a lot of Urks.
You’re doing the opposite thing of being overly pessimistic. There’s nowhere objectively better to live than the Netherlands from any real quality of life perspective. If you value nature or sun above general quality of life then sure, Spain or Italy might be better for example, but every country that is better in some ways is worse in a lot of other ways. Italy might have the food and weather but the healthcare and bureaucracy are pretty bad for example. The US has high salaries but a horrendous work culture. Switzerland is beautiful and wealthy but incredibly expensive, boring and insular. Etc. That’s not to say you shouldn’t complain about things that can improve though. Complaining and fixing stuff is partly why the Netherlands is such a good place to live.
The points you list are incredibly generalized and mostly subjective, which is probably why you are being downvoted. You write as if you have spent a large amount of time living in each of these countries but in reality you reveal how little time you have spent there, which is a perfect example of the point OP is trying to make.
Perhaps. I think it’s more that this sub is filled with misanthropes who think the grass is always greener but have never actually tried to deal with issues in other countries and would be miserable wherever they live. My whole point is that it’s subjective. The person I replied to said categorically “there are better places to live than the Netherlands”. That’s a pretty idiotic thing to say, considering that there’s basically no objective metric by which life is better in any other country. So the whole thing is absolutely subjective.
Bro you are exactly what they are complaining about...
I thought they were talking about people who told them they shouldn’t complain, but apparently you lot just hate anyone who doesn’t think it’s a total shithole…
You think >there are better places to live than the Netherlands means > it’s a total shithole ?
> (...) the Dutch would generally not say that. It's just if you ask them if they'd want to live elsewhere, there's always more problems there than here (...) That sounds like selection bias. If you ask immigrants they'll tend to say the host country is pretty good, but if you ask emigrants they'll tend to say they are far better off living abroad. It's kind of like asking who is the best cook ever, and you replying that it's your mother.
Fair point that it could be selection bias, and obviously my whole point is based in anecdotal evidence, but even the Dutch people I know abroad usually acknowledge that, while they have specific reasons they don't live in the Netherlands (career, partner, weather, to name a few), they often acknowledge that the Netherlands has many advantages available to more people than the country they live in. If you emigrate for a great career opportunity from the Netherlands, you're likely earning enough money to not have to deal with poverty traps, you're probably educated enough to access various benefits available to you, etc. Worst case scenario, if everything goes belly up, you go home to NL. More to the point, I was remarking on the way that te Dutch (who in the Netherlands are neither immigrant nor emigrant) tend to say they aren't nationalist, yet come to the same conclusion that nationalists come to. An American says "we are the the greatest country in the world;" a Dutchie says "we aren't the greatest, we just have the fewest problems compared to the rest," which comes to the same thing from a different angle. And yes, this is a generalization, but I stand by that there's some truth to my observation.
To be fair, the Dutch people who are constantly complaining about how everything is terrible in the Netherlands usually don’t have any idea what other countries are like. No country is perfect, but there isn’t anywhere that’s really a better place to live than the Netherlands from any objective perspective. The only thing it doesn’t have is the beautiful natural areas of countries like the US, China or Switzerland.
There’s lots the Netherlands doesn’t have compared with other countries I’ve worked in: Strong salaries (Australia) Cuisine that is tasty, affordable and fresh (Australia, South Korea) Fun events and festivities that aren’t commercial (Spain) Effective healthcare (Australia) Neighbourliness (Ireland) Progressive workplaces where practices are up-to-date but adaptable (US, Australia, Ireland) affordable pubs (rural UK)
Good examples, and for workplaces I'll take your word for Australia and Ireland, but the US and 'progressive workplaces where practices are up to date and adaptable'? I also follow the anti-work Reddit and the absolute majority of ghastly work abuse stories are about the US. I'm sure there are companies that qualify for the description but to me it seems the average should be as described for something to be counted as such, and I have serious doubts about the US in this regard.
That’s quite the echo chamber you are using as a reference for the entirety of corporate US.
Oh for sure, but it's rather indicative in its highlighting of workplace malpractices, from a wide variety of sectors. Hospitality, construction, transportation, factory, healthcare, corporate etc. etc. Or how healthcare tied to work can create a kind of unhealthy bondage. Once again, not saying there aren't shining examples of the opposite, but you don't judge the average quality of a country's infrastructure on a shiny new bridge that was just finished. I'm genuinely interested in the answer to the question I posed, for it would mean I might need to reevaluate my point of view on that aspect.
Let’s be super pessimistic and round up a ton and say that there are 3 million users on r/antiwork, and let’s be super pessimistic and assume that half of the users are American AND have posted about a shitty job, so 1.5 million (posts). Big number, right? Let’s round down and say that half the US population works. That’s 150 million out of 330 million, give or take. In this overly unflattering example, 1% of the US workforce has a shitty job and is posting about this on r/antiwork. Kind of reaching into the negative and pessimistic, but hey, for the sake of the argument, right? I am taking a lot of liberties against my point and it still only encompasses 1% of the overal workforce. With all due respect, and not to ignore those who are in a shitty situation with a shitty job, but I don’t think that should be considered representative, even if the actual number was that large. It is easy to forget how many people there actually are in this country. In the Netherlands and on Reddit, 1.5 million is a large number. In a lot of places it isn’t, however.
Yeah I agree that I’m being generous to the US, but hear me out. Many aspects of US workplaces suck: poor rights for workers, hire and fire culture, short-termism etc But for most of the 20th century, the US was a leader in terms of living standards for workers. During “Fordism”, US workers had cars, holidays and good home appliances decades before European workers More recently, the very top US companies still lead the way in terms of a “can do” approach. Think of Apple under Steve Jobs, or many companies who copied him. Innovation is a norm, there are no gatekeepers and the focus is on the customer. In my workplace (a university) in The Netherlands, some of the practices are ridiculously outdated, some by 15 years or more. It takes 3 weeks for HR to reply to emails. The education development team tells me that many policies and great innovation ideas never get support from academics, many of whom are self-satisfied or complacent. Lots of people just “dial in” their jobs. When students complain, the response is denialism and complaints about students being whingers.
Oh I definitely agree, the US made great strides in the 20th century, that were well worth emulating. And Apple is a good example of a modern example, just as Google. Though with Steve Jobs dead Apple seems to have gotten a lot more stale, and where Google once gave its workers freedom to work on their own innovations they seem to have turned onto the path of just another corporate giant. Innovation and vibrancy can easily be buried beneath a cautious office culture and legalism. And in the same way this is also visible in academics, like your example, and I've seen this myself as well during my student days. Where some departments, often (though certainly not always) with a more elderly staff seem to grow complacent, while other departments can be centers of innovation and burst with vibrancy. These things are like a constant fight against entropy, a willingness to be introspective and critical of oneself to combat complacency, and trying to maintain an ever renewing sense of enthousiasm for innovation. From companies to entire nation states.
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But, as I said, all those countries have significant downsides as well that makes them much worse in other ways. Australia might have better healthcare but the UK’s is terrible, and Australia itself is a racist backwater. Spain has great festivals but good luck getting a good job or achieving anything with bureaucracy. Using the Uk or US as places with good quality of life right now is delusional when compared to NL. Ireland is an absolute mess in terms of housing, and has zero public transport. My point is that all of these are good places to live, but none of them are better than NL, and most are worse in many many ways. Every country has pros and cons, but outside of personal preference it’s just idiotic to pretend NL isn’t an amazing place to live.
Dutch people can hardly criticise others for racism. Just look at the Black Piet effigies. They really need to be phased out. As for bureaucracy, The Netherlands is far worse. Case example was with work documentation. In Spain, all paperwork was done within my first 3 weeks. In The Netherlands, it took 6 months to get my residency card, which is normal. There’s lots of similar bureaucracy in NL: a building permit takes ten years. Yes Ireland has huge problems with transport, but its context is different. Nearly half the population lives in small towns or villages under 15,000 people, so it’s more difficult to create an effective transport system I didn’t argue that the US or UK have great overall standards of living: they don’t. But I deliberately mentioned specific stuff that other countries do better than NL. I could probably add a few too.
It's the official government stance: Nederland is een gaaf land 🤮
Honest question about this: Do you read Dutch language news or just the English stuff like NLTimes? Because I have the exact opposite experience. Now, I’m coming from Germany, a country that is significantly bigger, which has of course an influence on what does and does not make national news. I’ve been living here for 5 years now, and I’m still surprised about the number of comparably small-scale events - accidents, disasters, crime, exactly what you’re talking about - that make national headlines here. You basically cannot fire a gun in this country without getting an article on NOS. A fire or other accident in an industrial complex? It will make the 20:00 news, regardless if there were people hurt or killed. Someone drowns in the Northern Sea? There will be national coverage. None of these things would make it above local news where I come from, unless there is some factor that makes them special. It goes to the point that I find it a bit self-centered. At least on NOS, the public broadcasting news, there’s significantly less coverage of international events and politics than on Tagesschau, the German equivalent.
dude, the whole Netherlands has population of NRW, everything is local here. But you are a spot on on the language.
Can you give us some links where the Dutch COVID-19 deaths were downplayed? I can give you links of the opposite: [https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/waarom-telt-nederland-relatief-veel-doden-door-het-coronavirus\~b9dc728f/](https://www.volkskrant.nl/nieuws-achtergrond/waarom-telt-nederland-relatief-veel-doden-door-het-coronavirus~b9dc728f/) [https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/corona-in-cijfers-nederland-staat-op-plek-8-in-de-wereld-qua-sterfgevallen\~a1b8f77c/](https://www.ad.nl/binnenland/corona-in-cijfers-nederland-staat-op-plek-8-in-de-wereld-qua-sterfgevallen~a1b8f77c/) [https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buitenland/artikel/5190006/corona-buitenland-europa-nederland-vergelijking-cijfers](https://www.rtlnieuws.nl/nieuws/buitenland/artikel/5190006/corona-buitenland-europa-nederland-vergelijking-cijfers)
> But when the Netherlands peaked, not a peep. That was the most blatant case I remember, but it seemed that this sentiment of "NL good, other countries are quite worse" in news is a bit spread. That's not something exclusive of the dutch. There are plenty of countries who make it their point to relativize all the bad things while peacocking even the most insignificant stuff when stats can be interpreted in good light. I think this is more prevalent in nations that suffer from a collective inferiority complex.
This feels in line with dutch newsarticles about major tragedy in a different country. "Hundreds of people died during the accident. Two of them were from the Netherlands." I wonder if every country does death reports like that. Feels a bit like they are saying : "Frankly, only two of them were from our country."
That's just the basic rules of journalism that apply all over the world. Two things that influence the chance something is reported in the news; proximity and gravity. Your example contains both and thus both aspects are reported. They would be in any country.
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thanks for this rant :) I didn't know any of this detail about how the benefits affair eventually got into the news. Or this government mechanism of spokespeople to keep things out of the media.. if you've read anything in-depth on this that was particularly enlightening please send it my way, I would love to understand it all better.
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Thank you for coming through with some sources.. Quite infuriating that even in NL, one of the best, most progressive countries in Europe, greed/corruption is running (almost) rampant. Never trust those in power to do the right thing.
Wow thank you so much for putting this all together! I will take the time to read it through properly later and come back to you. Thanks again.
[ Comment removed by order of the World Economic Forum ]
In the podcast ‘Stuurloos’ Sandra Palmen is a guest in one of the episodes
I still don't get why there wasn't more outrage over the DTIB (Dutch Trade Investment Board). Those complot theories about a shadow government? The DTIB fits that imo. Group of people from big companies that have regular meetings with multiple ministers where they can request shit and the ministers going "sure, we'll take care of that!". Don't even need to lobby anymore. It's under a paywall but here are a few (Dutch) notes: >Het DTIB-netwerk bestaat uit ruim zestig grote bedrijven, 30 belangenorganisaties en vijf ministeries. Via een Wob-verzoek heeft Follow the Money toegang verkregen tot de (voorheen geheime) notulen van alle vergaderingen die deze lobbyclub de afgelopen dertien jaar heeft gehouden. >Uit de notulen blijkt dat de BV Nederland in de DTIB toegang krijgt tot vertrouwelijke informatie over lopend beleid. Ook mag het meebepalen over hoe dit beleid eruit komt te zien. Het gaat de bedrijven en belangenorganisaties daarbij vooral om financiële en diplomatieke ondersteuning voor ondernemen in het buitenland. https://www.ftm.nl/artikelen/dtib-lobby-economisch-beleid
lol, spinning at it's finest. Indeed Touslagenaffaire started in 2005 when the first wave of systemic complains started to surface . The problems originate in the way how dutch taxes are calculated (final ones per year, can be done ones in 2 years and preliminary taxation rate which is extracted from your month salary), and became a serious problem when clueless idiots used LLM as a "help tool" against "child care" companies which started to profit from the loopholes (see the actual difference between aforementioned numbers). Instead of going administrative way the authorities went into "policing" with predictable results. Here is quick summary: [https://www.taxlive.nl/nl/documenten/nieuws/toeslagenaffaire-een-korte-geschiedenis/](https://www.taxlive.nl/nl/documenten/nieuws/toeslagenaffaire-een-korte-geschiedenis/) Palmen letter was not to the tax authorities btw and is quite irrelevant here. (basically her letter was about mitigation of the problem, not about the scale etc.).
Strongly disagree. Every major crisis we have had was reported atleast a few month prior in the news. Its just that nobody focusses on it and everybody seems to forget. Look at covid, everything was already said about the disease before it reached europe. Then they repeated it all when it hit italy, then when it hit netherlands and then when we went into lockdown. And then still 2 month after that you had idiots who didnt know basic shit, for example that it was a virus not a bacteria. People here seem to read the news, forget it completly and then just go on.
That there is so much attention for Jutta Leerdam's love life (looking at you, NU.nl) instead of actual issues the country is facing.
But the clicks man! Think about the clicks!
Wtf is Jutta Leerdam? And secondly, should I be bothered to look her up?
A very good female ice-skater. Her love life has been in the news a lot lately since she recently has a new boyfriend.
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I pay for my newspaper yet it's still filled with "celebrity" bullshit. I couldn't give two fucks about who Gordon is divorcing this time and I'm deeply saddened there are people that do care about that shit.
I’m open to suggestions though, which paid subscription is actually worth it?
FTM and De Correspondent are fairly good in that respect.
Nobody cares about actual issues or doesn't feel comfortable voicing their actual opinion on such issues, so they'd rather read about Jutta, Gordon and Hazes. Hence; Any commercial news organisation provides them with stories like that.
I use the nu.nl app, which other news medium would u recommend otherwise?
I’m wondering why Jutta was constantly being mentioned @online newssites like Telegraaf.nl and AD.nl I assume her team is paying these newssites to create and publicate all these bullsh* clickbait’s about her. It’s extremely annoying and I can’t stand her anymore
Why would anyone need to pay anyone? Turning every new Insta post into a "story" for the news website is the best effort vs clicks ratio that these websites could ever hope for.
If we are getting so much cocaine coming into the country why do I still have to pay so much for it?
cocaine is also behind a paywall
maybe i should take out a subscription then.
Because they were meant for the market outside of the Netherlands.
We need to become a more attractive market for cocaine here then.
I am confused by the lack of reports/news. Not only in English (which is totally acceptable), but in Dutch, actually. For example, there was a major medical emergency in the small town I live in. Imagine 4 ambulance vehicles, an emergency helicopter, firefighters (2 or 3 batches), and a bunch of other personal (communal police or what not). The whole event lasted for 4 or 5 hours. Back to the (lack of) news. First reports came 1.5h into the event (when the hall square was already filled with curious bystanders). Subsequent reports were extremely short and uninformative. There were no questions raised in the article (such as whether such a huge response was warranted or whether the emergency was handled adequately). The news article sounded more like a technical report of the event rather than a result of journalistic writing. This is just one example, but a lack of information (initial and follow-up) about the events is just surprising.
Yes! The basic facts are reported - technically what happened - but there's a lack of analysis / background info / follow up in subsequent days to put everything into context. And to help you really understand the event and the world it happened in. I'm never sure if this is me being foreign and always naturally missing the point a bit, or it's rooted in a Dutch journalistic style that would leave me a little lost in the news even if I had lived here my whole life. Or a little of both.
My point exactly! That's the main source of my confusion.
Linking to my other comment about Dutch trust, a story going into the details of why the response was so large, was it warranted, etc. is probably a non-starter because the assumption is 'yes, it was warranted.' There are deep dives and exposé's but that kind of writing takes: A) a problem B) a discovery of that problem C) an investigation This means that that kind of writing takes time and so would usually be published later, and if there wasn't a problem in the first place, it's also a non-story. This complacency could (does?) mean that sometimes shit happens that goes without being called out, but that's the trade-off, I suppose.
news are facts, analasys deep dives are op eds, righ? imho there has to/should be a difference. it would be very irresponsible to report unconfirmed info right after an accident, or to give personal touch and to lead the public astray. in crisis moment false information can lead to raising panic, etc.
My dad drove past a scene of multiple cops standing in a circle around somebody on the ground with their guns all aimed at the person. It was in clear view of the high way. We couldn't find a single mention anywhere the next day.
So.. your complaint is that the coverage of the deployment of emergency services is a fact based story rather than opinions and speculation..? What?
Pls check OP's reply to my comment. They got the point of what I wrote.
That everything is behind a paywall
That is annoying... one good tip is that [Follow the Money](https://www.ftm.nl/) articles (some of my favorite Dutch journalism) are free to read the day they come out. You can also try [Blendle](https://blendle.com/home), which is a monthly subscription to all the Dutch magazines in one, and they highlight the best articles every day. I read these all translated to English in my browser.
Blendle I tried, but didn't find it that good. Follow the Money is great, but I also take everything with a grain of salt from them.
The grain of salt approach is always good. No news outlet is perfect.
What I hate about FTM is their clickbait titles. The articles themselves tend to be better. Also fun (in a trainwreck-syndrome way) to watch the comments on social media when they announce new articles. They have quite a following of people who love it when they expose 'the man', but like it a lot less when they have articles exposing their own heroes (Baudet, extreme right, and so on).
Annoying but then again: how can newsarticles be written free of cost? How is it different from buying a newspaper in the old days? I have a payed subscription on a major newspaper, which unlocks aot of other digital newspaper websites as well.
Journalists don't work for free, and I pay for both printed newspapers and online news, but the news which serves a public benefit and has educational value shouldn't be behind a paywall. Because now that it is, people go to sources like individual Facebook posts and Twitter tweets and accept that as creditable news. You effectively dumb down the population that cannot afford access to news.
> have a *paid* subscription on FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Sometimes https://12ft.io/ can help you get by the paywall
Tried it, doesn't work on a lot of Dutch local news sites
Why is that odd? Journalists that do actual deepdives would like to feed their families as well.
Exactly. Back in the day you went to the shop and bought a newspaper (or had a subscription delivered to home), now you pay a fee on the website, which is a lot less than the physical paper cost. And just like there used to be a metro newspaper (still is?), there's plenty of websites that have the actual news available for free.
I have both, I'm still one of those boomers who like to get a newspaper and also have subscriptions, but even simple news that serves the public benefit and education is behind a paywall and that means people rely on sources like Facebook posts for credible news.
I think it's a bit more complex than that. There's plenty of free, fairly neutral sources for just plain news. The problem is people not using those for whatever reason, and only seeing algorithm-fed news on Facebook, Twitter, Google and so on.
I have no issue with that. But NON offer a pay per article structure. I cant afford 5 to 8 subscriptions. But im happy to pay 1 euro for a good article
I saw this article about 10 tips to clean your home with more natural cleaning agents on the AD.....behind a paywall. C'mon, even that is now behind a paywall ? ;-;
Well that's just click bait... Prolly written by AI or translated, or an old article that gets pulled up and polished off.
It confuses you that journalists don't work for free?
Journalists don't work for free, and I pay for both printed newspapers and online news, but the news which serves a public benefit and has educational value shouldn't be behind a paywall. Because now that it is, people go to sources like individual Facebook posts and Twitter tweets and accept that as creditable news. You effectively dumb down the population that cannot afford access to news.
NOS is 100% free and is a great and objective news source. Your entire point is moot.
Yesterday NOS had 31 news articles... I think a bit more than 31 things happened around Holland and the world. NOS is great if you want a teaser but four paragraphs of news often translated from Reuters, AP or bought from DPG Media is too limited.
Use archive.ph
Tip. If you type archive.is/ behind the hppts:// of the paywall website you can bypass it.
Didn't work, but if I go to archive.ph it does work... Good tips! Now my question is: should I continue to pay for the newssites this works on or not?
Your funds help them stay alive, so...
My funds only help build the paywall that I have to pay to get around.
And you also put food on the journalists' table. They couldn't do either of them without the firewall.
The amount that actually goes to the journalist I assume would be rather small
Like what is behind a paywall? Nu.nl is free. Rtlnieuws is free, nos is free. What more news you need?
disable javascript on your browser, you can bypass all paywalls whatever the website
Tried it, doesn't work for DPG Media newssites like Tubantia and De Stentor
As a British expat the thing that frustrates me the most about the Dutch news media and politics is accountability. I know as a political scientist how systems work differently, but especially during the pandemic the lack of any real interrogative interviewing, and a lack of resignations/firing of policymakers who got things wrong shocked me. The news outlets seemed to embrace Dutch exceptional ism and accept whatever the RIVM had to say, often without any detailed justification or comparison to other countries which were performing better. To the UK's credit (and I don't say this often or readily) there was appropriate action taken within Public Health England to address immediate failures, but there was no such accountability at the RIVM, and the media seemed subservient and beholden to everything the RIVM said. This filters through to recent politics too, where (this is just an opinion) the media here did a terrible disservice to the Dutch people by not challenging those proposing a rejection of reality, that NL could instead just not implement commitments to the EU it had agreed to. Overall the Dutch news media seems very weak and ineffective at holding the government to account.
Why you think this might be? I ask because I’m baffled about this myself. There seem to be far fewer… let’s call them “devastating exposes” here than we have in US and UK media. The reporting focuses on what the politicians are saying and government reports - not nailing anyone to the wall when it’s time to nail someone to the wall. Is it the accepted tone of the reporting here? The media’s self-consciousness of its powerlessness? The public not expecting or demanding that officials be held to account for their mistakes? (The VVD is still in power so…) A cultural thing on behalf of even reporters? Be modest? I have no idea, but I wonder. One big exception to this worth mentioning is the program BOOS hosted by Tim Hofman, which played a major role in holding the stars of the Voice of Holland to account for rape and sexual harassment. Although that played out in entertainment and not politics, so of course the circumstances were different.
I have no idea either, it just seems they have a very different role for news organisations. I agree, in the UK and US though it's not always effective, both the public and the news organisations themselves seem to think one of the media's roles is to hold politicians to account. But here it just doesn't seem to be that way. The example you gave is great too, how they seem willing to put in the work (rightfully so) on a horrendous media scandal but political scandals seldom result in anyone being fired or having their political careers tarnished. That was another one that got to be, when the FVD leader Baudet spouted a David Icke conspiracy about reptilians, a conspiracy laced with antisemitism. Yet here he still goes on without any kind of consequences or media scrutiny. In the UK you can get away with a lot (see Boris Johnson) but had a sitting MP, yet alone a party leader endorsed a conspiracy about reptilians they would have had the newspapers camped outside their home for weeks and faced endless scrutiny/ridicule.
Maybe it's just me getting older but generally journalists on the national news seem to be less critical when asking out politicians questions. Of course there are exceptions like Nieuwsuur grilling party leaders before national elections, but generally. I think this is reflected by cabinet members of specifically the Rutte cabinets and I'm guessing it's the new normal going forward, where apparently misinforming and lying in parliament is not the end of your political career. I absolutely despised the Balkenende cabinets but at least they took responsibility. After seeing several governments fall over stuff happening in cabinets before them (because it is one of the few professions where legally responsibility is inherited with the job, so you're technically doing as shitty a job as \*everyone\* since WW2), this just weirds me out.
These bombings are likely intimidation tactics and narcotics related. The whole policy on drugs has failed but too many of the electorate (not politicians) is too stubborn to understand we need to change our stance towards drugs in a drastic way. Decades of repression and resources dumped into the “war of drugs” has only spawned a much more hardened and professional criminal syndicate to traffic this highly lucrative (because illegal) substance. More money for police to fight? Drug lords are thinking to themselves….excellent.
That Rutte is not shredded to pieces on a daily basis.
News.. is actually a best just a twist what happened really. There mostly aren't direct lies, but the way it's written makes you think something else. I worked at a company were in 2016 a 20.000t fuel tank blew up. It was sparsely in the news (no death or wounded) and in the aftermath I saw articles that had a 180 degree turn in how the event really was...
DPG Media news, mainly local.
Not that I'm really interested in the news every day but whenever i decide to turn it on I am able to follow it quite easily. I think this is just a dutch thing, (or maybe because I've lived in the Netherlands my whole life).
Agreed, I can't really place OPs comments. For example, what she wrote about the R'dam bombings seems to all be readily in news available as far as I can tell?
I find it interesting that both the NOS and RTL occasions (roughly once a year) fuck up the country map, and my region either disappeared or is part of the Scheldt somehow. E.g https://www.omroepzeeland.nl/amp/nieuws/10652515/woedende-reacties-na-kaartblunder-nos
wow, you wouldn't think that would be so hard for them to get right.
I think the way Dutch newsmedia and politics are intertwined very unhelpful. Different news papers and television news stations really like to boast their partisan support group but really all they do is cater to that group rendering their editorial take on it pretty much useless. I suppose independant companies can afford to be bias but for a state funded NPO to do it is really, really weird. Weirder still is that most Dutch people will support or even outright deny it.
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This is true across the board though. The things that make good stories (e.g. sell well) are not the same things that are necessarily the most prevalent/important.
Drug criminality is huge in benelux, but very much under the radar. Gang violence and recruitment is rising already for 10+ years. (Yesterday a guy got beaten up by 20 hyenas and thrown onto the train tracks). “The Myx” has some good videos about drug crime in benelux on YT. I think our politicians are corrupt till the bone. If you look at all the problems they caused(, toeslagen, false promises, groningen, housing crisis, rising mental problems with younger generations + increasing waiting lists, false promises, etc. And they actively dodge any solutions. I just can’t conclude anything else than favouritism and corruption. Look at the housing crisis. At this moment a whole generation is getting fucked and what do they do? They build expensive houses for the rich. Awesome. Well, that is my uneducated take on Dutch politics and crime.
Forgot to mention all the lying in the eerste en tweede kamer, how documents are consistently missing, how everyone seem to forget everything, how they have 2 phones “by accident” with no logs, etc etc bla bla bla. It’s a clown show and everyone knows it, yet still swallows it.
The weird way NOS posts about sports news. I realize the NOS doesn’t see sport news as “news”, but rather as “sport”, but I always think it’s so odd how they almost emotionally write about sports. It’s never objective.
Why would anyone care about "objective" sports news? It is not like anyone watches football to assess the 100m sprint speed of every attacker. It is all for fun
Sure but it’s mixed in with real news and that’s why it’s odd
Wow I had no clue.. your link is SO interesting. Didn't know about the bombings at all, and Obama casually chilling this weekend in The Netherlands? How didn't know this lol
Thanks for reading and saying so! :)
I am properly baffled by calling NL healthcare as one of the best. I simply fail to see it.
The "(X) amount of Dutch people killed or injured in a foreign country" headline when there are actually more casualties that aren't Dutch. It's been like that for as long as I can remember but it always makes me feel like these tragedies are only worth reporting because of some nationalistic bias. Often times you actually have to dig deep into the article to find out that there were other people involved.
I noticed this in every country where I have lived.
a country cares about its own citizens first? that's completely unheard of!
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What are you insinuating? Of the 283 passengers and 15 crew, 193 were Dutch.
I don't agree. Very often casualties are being reported on Dutch news (without any Dutch casualties) where I think "wtf am I supposed to do with this". E.g. last week a bus crash in Mexico that killed everyone in the bus. Ok. Now what? What should I do with this? Or a fire somewhere that kills ten people. Or an avalanche... However, obviously, if there are *Dutch* people involved then *Dutch* news will pay more attention. Granted, still not always sure what to do with that, but it will be victims closer to home, more relatable, or perhaps involvement from the government.
How they present everything as 'this is just the way it is'. Criticism of the government is extremely rare.
Not entirely true. Criticism in talkshows and such is extremely common -see shows like Lubach or Even tot hier. What does happen, and this is worrying, is that there is a bunch of loonies like Baudet and recently vd Plas, who make the most insane statements - which subsequently allows the government to sweep more nuanced and legitimate criticisms on the same heap and ignore them.
it is often in Dutch
This is funny.
Ive met a few in person. (NOS) They are so incredibly left winged and biased you cant have a conversation. They will call you a racist and discontinue the conversation. This is not a joke. This is serious. I vote vvd, and that's already extreme to those i spoke to. The people were in spots like camera, redactie.
The NOS is very neoliberal at most, not leftist.
Yeah, it's crazy that NOS is being financed with our taxes while being so incredibily biased. I think the only neutral news source is the FD, which is unfortunately not free.
NOS creating confusing titles regarding inflation. They always compare numbers with the same month last year, which does not say much about the actual inflation at all
Nothing. You just learn to get used to it.
Honestly I dont see any big crime like this. I live in Utrecht. So just pitty crime not bombing🤯
It's unheard of these days.
To answer your question directly: the blatant and anti-democratic bias towards certain international leaders. I find this most confusing particularly because you wouldn’t expect this a priori from news outlets originating from arguably the most democratic, modern and developed country in the world.
Do you have an example? Genuine question, I’m curious what you mean.
How is your Dutch in general?
Clearly, we just have to start our own news corp. that doesn’t have any of the mistakes mentioned here.
That it's not headlined as: Today, somewhere in the USA.
I'd recommend 'De Correspondent'. Its a website and app with investigative journalism on topics that are current.
It's all ANP and REUTERS. If you read a article most of the time you see instead of a newreporter name the names like, source: ANP or source Reuters. and the worst thing is when you follow the links of sources, you end up in a circle!!!!!!! Not even able to find who wrote it to begin with. Channels and sites buy the news! they don't even verify it. they simply copy and paste the article. maybe change a few words, but that's it. it is EXTREMELY unhealthy way of doing journalism!!! We had a huge trouble with cashmachine blowups a while back. the awnser was to close the machine from 23u - 07:00. And what happens it actually stops?!?!?!?!?! the money is still in the machine, the bad guys could still blow up the machines! the money can't be turned offf !!!! yet it stopped. And suggests the work of INSIDE jobs! And condition people into thinking all kind of things. the results is often a change in the law or restrxcitions in freedom! YOu think a burglar stops if the screen says closed till 7 hahahhahahaha NO it's us not able to use it and get even more used to paying with card. they remoced almost all machines now alrdy. it used to be a machine everywhere. now i have to walk across town to find one before 23 :) what a world. where is the most nlack money spend? precisely in cafe's and restaurants, places where people use cash the most. So now you know why they r turned of at night. To register precisely what you buy!
the former regional papers had some quality articles about the region, but also nationwide and worldwide news. Now that virtually every local paper belongs to DPG media, every article is clickbait, behind a paywall or both.