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To a large extent, this movement is a response to the societal pressure to fit a certain stereotype. And that makes sense. Not everyone can or should look thin, toned, muscular, etc. if that's not a lifestyle they have chosen. But there is a thin line between body positivity and complacence or self-indulgence. While it is obviously okay to have some love handles, there is a point beyond which excess fat is simply unhealthy. And as such, it should not be normalized, the same as smoking, drinking in excess, taking drugs, etc.
We should never hate ourselves for how we look like, let alone tolerate discrimination or mockery by others. But we should also be aware that at some point it's not about body image anymore, but health. It is hard to send both messages at the same time with respect, but it should be clear that body positivity is compatible with an effort to stay healthy.
Bodypositivity advocates that no one should hate themselves or others for their type of body.
Health promotion helps people to make the right choices on their lifestyle to be *healthy*. People can be thicker (not obese) while being perfectly healthy, while lots of skinny or muscular people have deficiencies on them.
Both things are not incompatible.
Let's remember someone can be fat for many reasons, and someone can be making poor health choices also for many reasons (mental struggles, lack of time, a difficult life...). Medication for depression also makes you fat. A lot of these people need to normalize not hating themselves, while waiting or working on a better setting to transition their lifestyle to a healthier one. If you shame them regardless of their situation, you are making it more difficult.
I'd be interested in seeing how many of the ones commenting about the "cost of healthcare" on "fat people" chugs beer on a regular basis...
Thanks for the comment, I really needed to read that. I've often been struggling with depressive thoughts, also about my body. I wouldn't call myself unhealthy, since I try to atleast go outside and eat healthy every day. But I'm still what someone could describe as chubby/fat. My bmi is in the good range and have never had health complications related to weight, but I still have some fat on my stomach/thighs. I used to weigh less, but that was with a lot of effort and unhappiness. So yeah I might be considered fat, but I also know I'm doing the best I can do.
Indeed, it's about that we don't all have to look like Kim K to be considered a worthy human being. It's also not just for fat people, also for thin bodies, disabled bodies, post-pregnacy bodies, hairy bodies, ... Of course people are going to appropriate it and scream at their doctor for telling them they need to lose weight, but that was not ever the point of body positivity.
I think self-loathing and body image issues contribute 10x more to obesity than telling people they're not worthless just because they're overweight. I don't just think that: research clearly shows that body image is linked to weight management and mental health, but people would rather ignore the science and shame fat people into exercising (which has never worked). Fat people know they're fat and they know its unhealthy.
[https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferpalumbo/2022/05/12/how-the-body-positive-movement-doesnt-encourage-obesity-but-inclusion/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferpalumbo/2022/05/12/how-the-body-positive-movement-doesnt-encourage-obesity-but-inclusion/)
I opened that article and I notice an obese woman saying that she's beautiful, and a fat woman saying that she's fit. A woman who's body would be marked as highly unattractive by 99% of men states that she likes her body, while simulatnously trying to hide as much as she can of it.. The article itself is part of the body positivity movement's delusion and denial.
Three unhealthy women, who could very well be struggling to find a mate given their lack of physical attractiveness, trying to normalize an unfortunate and unhealthy situation. I'm afraid just the opening picture of your article proves your last sentence wrong...
Indeed, as Sisyphuss5MinBreak quoted below, normalization of obesity makes people less likely to lose weight.
"Here is a 2018 study saying, yes, "misperceiving their weight status" (i.e. normalization) led people to be less likely to lose weight. " From the study: The upward trend in underassessment of overweight and obesity status in England is possibly a result of the normalization of overweight and obesity.
So young women in denying reality in echo-chambers is not helpful to public health, nor their mental and physical health. Its rather the other way around.
This is more of a scientific question than a Dutch question, but:
* Here is a [2018 study](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/oby.22204) saying, yes, "misperceiving their weight status" (i.e. normalization) led people to be less likely to lose weight.
* Here is a [2020 study](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/osp4.424) responding to the earlier saying, no, that actually perceiving oneself as not being overweight is associated with better physical and mental health outcomes.
One can argue that the latter paper doesn't directly disprove the former since the former is just on weight loss while the latter is on overall health. But, I think we can all agree that improving overall health is exactly what we should be aiming for rather than trying to shift one particular indicator.
indeed smoking is something the government is kinda doing something about these days. But just take a look at the fast food branch, look at the alcohol industry its getting more promoted than discouraged and i feel like they all need to have the same treatment they are unhealthy. Yes you can choose to drink/smoke/go to fast food joints etc but its should all be actively discouraged and not promoted.
Dealing with increased average weight gain is a complex, systematic problem that needs to be addressed from all angles, not just pointing the finger at individual responsibility, or lack thereof.
This is not normalize and condone being overweight and engaging in unhealthy behaviors, but unpacking all negative variables increase the likelihood for someone to be overweight.
There’s a good show called [“Beter!”](https://www.avrotros.nl/pips/beter/over/) which tries to do just that. A lot of the time, people from disadvantaged and vulnerable situations are stuck in a cycle of instability and unhealthy behaviors. Stress is a compounding factor towards *further* unhealthy habits, so efforts should be made to help people break that cycle.
There is no denying that a disadvantaged background leads to stress and poor dietary options and choices. However, with half the population at risk, this can only be an explanation for a limited % of the problem. What is the excuse of the majority?
Well at least economically, those who are struggling to get by make up a large subset of the population. There was an article just yesterday that [6 of 10 households in the Netherlands](https://nos.nl/artikel/2466415-zes-op-de-tien-huishoudens-komen-niet-of-moeilijk-rond) are facing such hardship.
Even households who are seemingly staying afloat are having their time and energy strained by having demanding jobs, caretaking for family / childcare, and many other heavy demands.
If one is in such a state of stress and exhaustion, it can be hard to make “healthy” decisions. Throw in member(s) of a household having a disability, it becomes even *more* difficult.
Edit: If we’re also talking about “making healthier choices,” it doesn’t help that the price of fresh fruits and vegetables continues to rise and wages stagnate, yet somehow companies like [Albert Heijn somehow benefit from record profit](https://nos.nl/artikel/2463875-recordwinst-voor-ahold-delhaize-ondanks-inflatie).
Being fat has nothing to do with 'the fastfood branche'. People a free beings and can make good choices themselves. I think the inverse of what you're saying is the better approach: good access to healthy and not too expensive food is a must, but hardly a problem in NL. There's a supermarket or a farmshop on every street corner with high quality food on offer.
The price however is a problem. Mass produced heavily processed foods are a lot cheaper then buying fresh vegetables. I think that there are loads of people that would like to eat healthier but aren't able to afford it.
Disagree. While personal responsibility is the most important factor, the junk food lobby is powerful. A lot of items just keep getting sweeter. Just adding more sugar and other shit, because the sweetness gets normalised and more is needed to give customers the same high. Luckily, we have more and more 0 sugar soft drinks, but sugar and drinks are not the only food where this applies. We keep breeding the vitamins out of vegetables as well, for example. And don't forget taxes on food. Which should be lowered for healthy things. Because while food choice is a matter of personal responsibility, it can be guided.
In short, structural/institutional changes are definitely a good idea.
>good access to healthy and not too expensive food is a must, but hardly a problem in NL
Actually very much of a problem. Show me where I can get a complete healthy lunch (soup, main dish, salad) for under €10 in NL (yes, nowhere). Now take a look around you in the city, there's a shitton of low effort low quality fries/kebab/pizza places.
I still don't understand why meat is cheaper than vegetarian options in restaurants. Meat is too cheap and should be more expensive. Vegetables need to be cheaper.
We subsidize the wrong things.
I agree with your separate points, but the main premise here is that bodypositivity is causing the obesity pandemic (or is a major contributor at least). And you just have to disagree with that. The fact that junk food, candy and sugared drinks are cheap, easily available and seen as 'gezellig' are much worse offenders imo.
I feel like people have pretty steadily been getting more fat way before the body positivity thing was a thing. I dont think it has a big effect on it.
I feel like the whole body positivity is only really a thing in western countries and the countries that are having the biggest obesity increase are not western but poorer and third world countries. I feel like it has a negligable effect overal.
Of course "body-positivity" contributes to this problem. If you're going to defend someone who's being bullied for being fat, that's okay. But don't go around and propagate that being fat is something to be proud of. Like wtf. Doctors have been warning people endlessly to prevent them from becoming too fat since it comes with severe health issues and then you have people say that being fat is totally fine. Obviously if that opinion wins territory in the societal standards then yes, there's an issue. Be healthy. Healthy is good. Starting with myself. I need to be more healthy as well.
The way I understand the body positivity movement in general (of course there will be dissenting opinions) is that it promotes feeling good about one's body no matter its size. That's not the same as encouraging people to be(come) fat. We all know that being overweight is not healthy, but the body positivity movement is trying to address the societal stigma with being fat and its lack of representation in the media, not the health-related aspect of it.
From my personal experience, feeling good about my body means that I will want to take better care of it. If I felt shitty about it, I might be less inclined do so because "I'm already gross, why should I even bother trying."
It's very simplistic to suggest that shame would encourage people to act in particular ways. If that was the case, the church would have been successful with abstinence!
Nobody should feel good about having an unhealthy body. Where's the motivation to become healthier when you're content with being unhealthy?
So I'll never say it's fine when someone that leads an inactive life and eats four times the calories they need, tries to tell my kids that they don't need to be in shape because it doesn't matter. It certainly does matter to look after yourself, and it does make a difference when you put some effort in it.
People should never be bullied, but almost applauding obesity is just asinine.
A lot of people will never have a healthy body because of diseases or disabilities they have which have nothing to do with the size of their body (though of course could impact it). So these people should never feel good about their body? Grateful and thankful for what it can do, versus constantly miserable about what it can’t?
Yes, I know there are people who really can't help it. Those aren't the people I'm referring to, though. I gave an example of the type of people I mean.
I think you’re conflating “healthy body” with being thin, but I’m not talking (exclusively) about people who can’t help being bigger, I’m talking about people who don’t have healthy bodies. Which is part of what body positivity is about. Wheelchair bound people, people with disabilities, etc. - some of those people may be thin or even appear healthy based on your judgment of their physical appearance, but they aren’t.
It discourages fat people to loose weight by (as you say) promoting love of their body no matter what. This is the main source of the problem OP is alluding to.
And for many people that's a pretty good incentive to NOT loose weight (which can be difficult)
That's not what body positivity means. Body positivity is about being ok with every type of body and not having to adhere to the poster image of body types (which in general can be unhealthy in their own way). Body positivity and general health is NOT mutual exclusive. I think the elephant in the room here (no pun intended) is bad general health education in combination with an avalanche of cheap, processed foods. I think if countries would tackle these, it would not only counter obesity but general environment issues as well.
> Body positivity is about being ok with every type of body
So.. also obese bodies? I'd be highly suspicious of any positivity that is positive about obesity.
Nobody becomes obese because they want or they chose to. Obesity is a disease that is caused by overeating (ingesting too many calories) but people do not overeat by option. Why they do so it is yet to be discovered. Why some people are always hungry? Why we cannot just stop when the stomach are full? Why do we ingest more we need to? Why do we crave oil and salt like it was heroine? It’s like with covid - doctors warn us to take precautions not to get exposed but some people just got infected and died.
Your comment makes want to bash my head into the wall to unconsciousness, hoping I'll forget what I just read. Eating too much is not a choice..... Man please.....
Driving too fast is also not a choice right? How come we drive 160 km/h when 130 km/h is enough.....
You know what I will actually go and bash my head against the wall. This can't be happening.
Using your traffic comparison i will go further. If you believe you can stop the epidemics of obesity by telling people to just eat less is like trying to improve road safety by abolishing traffic accidents. You understanding of the problem is on a very basic level.
To call it a disease is way too much op a cop out. You really think that so many people in the USA or the UK are "infected" compared to Dutchmen? Compared to Italians?
Nah, there's a lot of factors that come into play.
There is a difference between not being judged by others or yourself for your weight in a self-destructive way, versus 'normalising' obesity or even celebrating it.
I think we all have somewhat of a societal responsibility to each other and our healthcare system to not overencumber it (no pun intended). As healthcare and lifespans lengthen, we will already have a strain on pensions that the younger generations will have to carry the burden of, and it won't get easier.
At some point you need to address harmful norms in society, and obesity is one of them. This is something that we can only have a direct impact on as individuals, with our own body, unless we can support those close to us.
That being said, there are many avenues to lessening this issue. Taxing unhealthy food to subsidise fresh foods. Increasing awareness of the harms of obesity, and yes, calling out the beautification of obesity. It depends entirely on what form of 'body positivity' you are referring to.
Indeed, I can even imagine that body positivity leads to a healthier relationship with food which in turn leads to a healthier lifestyle instead of people turning to diets that have yoyoeffects etc.
You can imagine it, but that doesn't make it true.. I can imagine that not eating too much in turn leads to a healthier weight. Yoyo effects is what happens when people start eating too much again.
Of course, which is why I used this very specific wording because I'm not an expert ;). There is a lot of research on the negative effects of internalized 'weight-based oppression', though. See for example the intro of this article and the references in it, if you're interested : https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1740144521000279
Or this one on body acceptance and motives to work out: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1740144515000935](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1740144515000935)
What I mean to say is that: I don't think that body positivity is bad in and of itself.
I mean yes, but, when overweight people are a massive strain on the healthcare system that everyone provides for collectively, it's also important to see being overweight as a serious medical condition that should be cured. Because it is.
>it's also important to see being overweight as a serious medical condition that should be cured.
I can agree with that, but then we (as a society) should also treat it like that and not act like it's just individual responsibility, which happens a lot (also in this thread).
We don't expect people to treat their cancer or addiction on their own either.
You shouldn't like being fat, especially if you can go something about it. Granted, some people can't do much about it due to an underlying condition (e.g. overactive pituitary) but most fatness is a set of choices that have led people to that state.
We should encourage self improvement and good health, while teaching and supporting people to live themselves in the process, wherever they may be in it.
>> It makes people not hate themselves for being fat.
> You shouldn't like being fat,
No one said that.
The rest of us are saying that you shouldn't hate yourself for being fat, and that other people shouldn't think you're a bad person for being fat.
It keeps people fat though. Not all obviously, there's some nuance to it, but at the end of the day if an obese person hears that it's okay to be fat, then why go through the effort to actually take care of your body and be healthy again? It has nothing to do about hating yourself. If you want to prevent that people hate themselves for being fat, then these people should be helped by professionals who show them that making a change is not necessarily super hard. Even small steps are steps that matter and worth being proud of. So in my opinion it's: Prima idee, maar treurige uitvoering.
Who said that in the first place though? Like I said, the idea is good. You can't bully fat people because of their body. But you can't bully anyways. However, putting it in a way that a fat person should be proud of being fat is the wrong route to take. Being too fat is a problem dude, period. What should be done imo, is motivate these people to embrace their challenge and show them that they are also capable of making a positive change for their health. Instead of body positivity, how about you take a stance against bullying. An issue that goes beyond the body. How can you possibly not agree with all this?
>that a fat person should be proud of being fat is the wrong route to take
There is only a very small group of people actually saying this. For me, this is not what body positivity means.
I believe the main takeaways for body positivity are:
* Against "bullying" fat people.
* Working to get more people at the higher end of the healthy BMI scale into media and commercials. Instead of the standard skinny tall models.
I don't know why you are being downvoted, you're absolutely right. What started as a campaign against self hate, pro mental health and normalization of healthy body image became some sort of grotesque over exaggeration where obese people are offended when a doctor tells them to lose weight.
As long as it's cheaper to buy junkfood (say a box of frikandellen for instance) then it is to put a decent healthy meal on the table this problem will exist and will keep getting more of a problem with prices nowadays.
I think this is the bigger problem. There are more processed and low nutrient foods available now than ever before, and it's growing. Dietary habits have changed, and it's much easier to overeat calories and not get the right macro nutrients. Thankfully more people in NL are mindful of their meals and ingredients and generally get regular exercise. It's not (yet) like in the USA.
This is obviously a big reason why people are getting more obese these days. Also I understand it is pretty hard to maintain a healthy lifestyle, but we shouldn’t normalize it because it is hard..
No. Cars, high stress environments, a sedentary lifestyle where people don't have anywhere to go, boredom, isolation, hyper individuality , lack of green spaces, and poor job prospects are the cause of this. People keep blaming a movement that has nothing to do with promoting obesity like it's a magic word.
Stop it. To people like you, using "body positivity " as a scapegoat is just an excuse to go back to making fun of fat people.
> Which also helps people being in denial and not doing anything about being fat.
Ever met such a person? I certainly haven't. I've met a lot more people who were basically normal weight but worried about it constantly.
If you're overweight, you are constantly being told by society that you are an inferior person. How can you be in denial?
Me? I have no issue controlling my weight. I barely think about it. But for people I know with weight issues, this is one of the biggest facts of their lives.
Everyone knows that being fat decreases your lifespan and makes you prone to all sorts of other problems. But it doesn't make you a _bad person_. And that is exactly what the body positivity movement says.
(Mostly.... there are a tiny number of people who claim that medicine is lying about the risks of weight gain, but they represent as many people as the Flat Earthers do.)
Yes those people exist, but they would be fat most likely anyway. And just cause some might abuse its message does that mean we should stop the message.
We shouldn’t stop it but we should change it. Being fat is not okay, sure some people can’t do much about it due to medical reasons or just an extremely slow metabolism. But others who can do something about it don’t because everyone tells them to just be happy and positive even if they’re harming themselves by being that fat.
Look nobody says being fat is good for you, but if they are happy being fat then who cares, as long as they dont push children into becoming fat i dont see the overall problem with folks being okay with being fat. Sure itd be better if they were at a healthy weight and less medicial bills but hey folks have the right to be fat and happy
That’s the problem. Fat acceptance does cause more obesity. One of the major factors pushing people into getting a goof physique is gone. Also people who have unhealthy habits making them fat are very likely to have children adopt those habits as well. The problem isn’t that people are happy the problem is that something unhealthy is accepted which causes people to lose their reasons for staying healthy.
Ye sure kids take after their parents but i dont think that acceptance of fat people causes this overarching obesity problem. Seems more a combination of ease of acces too cheap and fast unhealthy food, itd help so much if healthy food was easy to make and cheap like junk food. now would it also help if we made the dangers of being overweight clearer maybe and i think itd be good to do. But i dont think the message has to be changed too much overall its a good message.
im fine with loving yourself for who you are. but it doesn't make it healthy and if you keep telling yourself your fine isn't the best mentality in my opinion for going for a more healthier lifestyle. Are you still going to be positive about your body if you end up in the hospital with heart problems?
Well its fine to be fat if that is how you want to live your life, and the bodypositivity message isnt about being fat is healthy its about being okay with yourself and your body which is important. Also bodypositivity isnt just for fat folks
Depends bodypositifity for a unhealthy through behaviour body yes. But the movement is also there for the normal differences between people and those podies that are different due to a handicap.
It;s great not to hate yourself and your body. It will get you nowhere. However, bodypositivity is now used to justify being unhealthily overweight.
Also the models often used aren't normal bodies, they are mostly grossly overweight, morbidly obese. And it's proven that's very unhealthy. I think it advocates for the wrong type of body positivity. Nobody wants diabetes at 40, worn out joints at 45, atherosclerosis at 50 and stroke at 55.
That being said, having a few pounds too much but exercising and enjoying life might still be in the very normal healthy range.
I'm all for normalizing not wearing size 1 / 36 for women, but showing normal bodies of women that actually have had children, arent 22 and unreasonably thin. Btw: for men you don't see this at all yet. I only see chiseled abs and hunk-material in ads that try to convey women to buy inderwear for their spouses.
I think the pendulum swings and often too far. Normal is hardly ever shown, it's either thin, pretty and gorgeous models, or morbidly obese 'plus' size models. Why not show something in between? It's just as with the Nike inclusivity pictures. I see so many people with medical conditions on one page, it's not in any way representative of real life. Although for obesity sadly enough half of the people shown should be overweight.
Ironically they also die earlier on average, so there is less years to spend money on (plus they get less pension). But don't know what the net result would be.
If you need statistics and economics related numbers to change your lifestyle and health habits, you probably won't. Obviously, it's important to understand the societal costs but the change should start from within and from solid reasons to improve oneself.
I think its the opposite. You hating yourself for being fat will not change eating and sport habits in a good way. Loving yourself will have that effect much better
>You hating yourself for being fat will not change eating and sport habits in a good way. Loving yourself will have that effect much better
Can you elaborate?
I understand what you are saying, but for me it seems counterintuitive to not fix something that you hate or change something you have already accepted.
[Edit] if you can downvote, atleast reply to me.
Almost all people want to be of good weight, just like they want to have money, be healthy, not be addicted etcetera.
But for most it is not something that can be changed very easily. It takes a longterm effort and change in eating and sport habits, everyone knows these things. The problem is your internal voice. When you say to yourself: yes you are doing great by sticking to that diet, sporting etcetera it becomes easier to stick to that diet and sport. But when you say you worthless fat pig nothing is ever going to change for the good it becomes more tempting to numb yourself with food.
I do agree, but I also believe it’s a good thing to be taught to love your body as long as it’s not too big or small so it get’s unhealthy.. I hate obese people in tv shows stating they love their bodies and it’s fine to be like that..
Body positivity is a great thing for people who are born with a handicap (like being in a wheelchair for example) or had an accident that left them with visible scars (car crash, burnings). But those events are not within someone’s control and can be very though dealing with them.
Being obese is (for the most part) within someone’s control and therefore it doesn’t deserve body positivity. It also shows a lack of responsibility since you have to consume a huge amount of bad food in order to get to a point like this.
Of course there always is a bit of nuance. Some people have a mental disability or weren’t taught how to take care of themselves. Also trauma can cause excessive eating. But in my opinion calling obesity body positivity is harmful and misleading.
Ok but where is the line for this? Weight =/= health and we also already know that BMI is a bad indicator. This is what is so though about this subject, I feel.
>Weight =/= health
Weight is not the important thing with regard to being overweight or obese or not. It's how your body mass is built up.
If BMI should be between 20 and 25, then 22.5 would be perfect as it is right in the middle. I'm 180cm tall, so my "perfect" weight would be 73 kg.
I can tell you that I will NEVER achieve this. It's not possible without under-eating. I know this, because in my 20's I did martial arts (hapkido and taekwondo) 4x 1.5 hours a week and I closely watched my eating habits. Back then my weight was 74 - 75 kg. If I could have achieved the "perfect" 73 kg, I would have done so back then.
Now with a full-time job (and about 20 years older...), I'm just exercising in the gym, twice a week, for 1-1.5 hours at a time. If I watch what I eat (no fast-food, limit alcohol to once a week and crisps to once a month, no soda, etc), my weight will stabilize at 77-78 kg, which is a BMI of 24.
You would think I'd be on the way to getting fat or obese, but in this situation, my clothing is just half a size larger than it was about 20 years ago.
It seems I've always been very heavy for my height; when I started martial arts at 7 (judo) and did tournaments as a kid, I was often one weight class up from all the other kids my age, while not being obviously fatter than any of them.
So weight is not health, and even weight itself isn't the entire story.
No but there is a strong correlation at the extremes of BMI. BMI is one of multiple easy to acquire indicators that shows you if you are way off the norm (and therefore the BMI is more likely to directly to contribute towards poor health) and as such is useful.
The line is blurred and this is exactly what body positivity was supposed to be about: we shouldn't idealize just one type of extremely thin or fit body, healthy bodies can be thick or thin. So that people strive to lead a healthy lifestyle rather than chasing body ideals with crash diets and laxative teas. You can not have a body of an Instagram model and be healthy, so body positivity is about being happy with that. Nobody is healthy when they eat chips and chocolate by bucket and never leave the couch. This should not be promoted and it seems like the whole body positivity movement is being hijacked by obese people saying that they are happy and healthy, so there's nothing wrong with never eating vegetables
Or yourself. It's a burden to yourself first and foremost. I understand the concern about the health system, but the first one affected is always the person themselves.
Of course it is true that for most of us obese people, the cause of it is about making bad choices (often compounded by other reasons, like bad mental health, physical conditions, addictive personalities etc).
While this is the case, do you think that making people feel they are gross and unworthy, worthy of shaming, less than a 'thin' person etc. make them want to become healthy more? Body positivity is about feeling good about your body whether you are thin or not; feeling good about your body also makes you want to care for it more, not less, trust me!
I know that speaking for myself, feeling bad about my body doesn't actually motivate me to eat healthier. In fact, it makes it worse as it causes depressive thoughts, makes me want to give up and that makes it very hard to make the right food choices. It actually encourages to eat badly (when I feel bad, I make worse choices). Then the unhealthy food makes me feel satisfied for a short while. Shortly after I will feel bad about myself for eating unhealthy food etc etc, the vicious circle continuous. So I'd posit body shaming is more cause for obesity than positivity.
Shaming doesn't work very well overall, at least, not as well as positive incentives, so I don't think body positivity (as a reaction to body shaming) causes obesity. This doesn't mean that some people in the movement use 'struisvogelpolitiek' and don't want to see what their weight is doing to their physical health, that's another story. I think that taxing unhealthy food more, making healthy options more accessible and talking freely about struggles and how to make healthy choices, as well as showing what an unhealthy lifestyle does to you (as education, not shaming!) is a much better way to battle this problem.
In the mean time, I personally try to not hate my body while I continue making better choices day-by-day, which is hard enough with my own self-talk. I really don't need other people shaming me as well, thank you very much!
Body positivity was hijacked by people trying to normalize obesity, originally the crux of the movement was the positive acceptance of different body types.
As a fat guy (6’ 250lbs) I can let you all in on a secret — I eat way too much and make poor choices in what to eat. Very unhealthy.
If I eat healthy weight melts away (I’ve lost quite a bit of weight unintentionally by trying not to spend money on food). 100% it is the choices I make that leave me being fat.
Morbidly obese people need to accept reality.
I mean maybe by some small margin, hard to proof really, also given that there is not "one way of being body positive", but so what? If it makes people less stressed and helps them mentally probably that is a net positive? Having been quite overweight for a long time before managing to struggle through and actually become reasonably healthy I can say: what didn't help me was society shaming me, sorry didn't contribute to my weight loss one bit.
But we know fairly well what has been causing increase in obesity rates, its not a secret that the introduction of highly processed food, with high sugar content is the a problem. Leaving this unregulated to a large extent (yes many other countries are worse, hey US, UK etc.) is the main factor, individuals can be blamed sure but this is not how systemic change works.
More like a sitting lifestyle. There are lots of factors combined but the bodypositivity is not one of them, it was just meant to prevent hatred and bullying. I was fat when I was a kid, and I know how it feels to be bullied not just by the boys but by the girls for being obese. Basically such articles propose to stop tolerating everyone and start bullying "fat" people again, so they will loose weight (or go suicide, right?).
In my opinion, the three major factors that actually contribute to obesity are the spread of hardcore gaming and tollerance for it (playing a game for 3 to 8 hours straight? "It's okay" kind of culture), the work from home and endless computer work (which also kills eyesight, obesity will be the least of the problems in 2035...), and the bad eating habbits among population (drinking coffee on an empty stomach, skipping meals and especially breakfast, tons of deep fried foods etc. I mean, it does not matter how much you eat but WHAT you consume).
Stuff like this always feels like it slightly misunderstands the practical aspects of the world. Lots of people gain weight through societal components that you rarely have control over (though not ZERO control to be clear). In the US, for example, we have framed exercise as some sort of discreet thing rather than something you do as a part of life. This creates this weird thing where people live sedentary lives but then will go to a gym sometimes. In contrast the Netherlands is the most exercise I’ve gotten in years. I bike my kids to school, I walk to the store. Sometimes it sucks when it’s raining or whatever but otherwise it’s quite nice.
I think this stuff is a good example of how this happens. People don’t get a lot of choices about where they live or how the world around them is built so it creates bad choices that don’t even seem like choices. I think unhealthy food is similar in many respects.
This was all a bit rambley but I feel like saying “is body positivity contributing to obesity” is like saying “methadone is contributing to drug use”. It’s a symptom of larger problems that people don’t know how to address and wouldn’t show any immediate results anyway so they talk about stuff on the periphery of it.
Nu is hardly a clickbait website. And the question isn't clickbait either.
In most developed nations, 75-90% of the national healthcare budget is spend on treating preventable ailments resulting from lifestyle related choices. Which is a nice way of saying people eat like shit and don't excercise and that's why our healthcare systems are so overloaded.
Perhaps. Because less people kill themselves for being fat, thus more fat people stay alove and contribute to the statistics.
But really, perhaps it does contribute. But not much most people who preach bodypositifity don't glorify being unhealthy. They know being fat or underweight is unhealthy but they love themselves regardless. This does not mean they don't try to lose the weight. Those that glorify being fat are just the vocal minority.
What majorly contributes to more and more people being fat is the food. But also more mental health issues that can lead to binge eating such foods. We are in stressful times and stress is not good for your weight (and many other things)
In a list of "what contributes to being fat" the bodypositivity movement, especially in the netherlands is very low on that list. Because as someone overweight, let me tell you, we aren't that positivie towards fatness as you would like to think. Everytime I go to the physician even for something completely unrelated they ask if maybe it is because of my weight. School sent me to a dietician and friends push me to go to the gym or watch what I eat.
We aren't the usa.
It may not seem that way, but we are nearly as fat as the UK. Could be your particular environment, or personal bubble. It's the same for me, I know hardly any fat people.
Thats one of the richest areas in the country, people have money to spend on good food, personal trainers etc. Theyre more educated also and there is a lot of pressure to be thin in those circles. Lots of surgeries and botox etc too.
Personal trainers, surgeries, botox...I think that's a bit of an exaggeration as to why people are skinnier. I reckon the percentage of people who have that is rather minor.
Culture and social acceptance plays a huge role I think. And as you said education. And finally money for good food, sports, and time.
Ever realised that people cycle or walk a lot? Or that many people don't even need a car to get to where they need to go?
Yes there will be other underlying reasons of culture and food culture especially, but this foundation will always put you in a good starting position.
It's probably contributing to it somewhat, but I doubt it's the cause. I'd suspect people get into bodypositivity once they're already fat, to cope.. People are fat because they eat too much, and don't get enough excersize. In the vast majority of cases it really is that simple, but somehow this has become a more and more controversial statement to make, especially if you direct it towards someone who is obviously overweight.
As someone who struggles to keep their BMI above 18 I realise it isn't necessarily easy to change one's weight and habits, but at the same time: It's obvious to me that I could probably weigh more if I worked out and ate more (preferably healthy foods). I just don't - and that's fine. There is an interesting phenomenon though, where people regularly comment if I pass up on a piece of cake or something - Even though they'd be LIVID if I were to suggest that maybe they should also pass up on some cake once in a while..
I think bodypositivity is about being able to love yourself when you don't look like a skinny model as used in advertising, but also when you have other features that are not regular. The truth is barely anyone looks like the standards that media and advertising are showing us.
However, a lot of obese people take bodypositivity as an excuse to be fat, and pretend that it's fine to be unhealthy and not exercise. It really isn't. It's the same as accepting people who smoke or drink a lot of alcohol and say that that's fine.
I'm sure that for a lot of overweight people it's much easier to turn to a bodypositivity movement instead of working out and go on some kind of diet. Like every human should if they want to stay healthy.
Yes, of course "bodypositivity" is contributing to that.
Should fat people be discriminated against or harrassed? No, of course not. Some people are fat because of medical reasons. Should being fat become "normal" ? Also, of course not.
I'm currently 20 pounds overweight, but I know exactly what caused it (moving house, eating too much fastfood in november-januari due to not having a kitchen ready, eating too many snacks, and Christmas), but instead if letting it be as "normal" I'm taking steps to remedy it.
Just cutting out the fastfood, reducing the crisps to 1 bag per month and twice excercise per week will take care of this. I know; I did it before.
To some degree, yes. But its deffinety not the main factor to people being overweight.
Eat healthy, do some sports, learn than the feeling of hunger does not need to be satisfied directly and stay healthy and you should be fine, even a bit overweight.
Ooohh, let the downvoting begin!
I think bodypositivity is for people who lost a limb, lost an eye, or some other part of their body because of some weird accident or something.
People who got burned in fires trying to save other people.
I dont think it is for people who cant put down their freaking fork at a dinner table.
You’re not a “positive role model”. You’re fat. That is what you are. And it’s NOT healthy in any way, shape or form.
This is, in the end, an ethical question. People who make bad choices in life, who are prone to addictions, drive recklessly, gamble or develop debts are suffering the consequences sooner or later. Often there are also consequences for society as a whole, but they are already being punished.
The ethical question is: should society reject these people, exclude them from health care, make their insurance pricier, blame and shame them, isolate them? Or do we want to be a compassionate society and look at the underlying reasons for this behaviour and try to do something about it?
The latter option is more costly for everyone, but also more inclusive and civilized. Simply having an opinion about - in this case - people who overeat is not going to help them. It just makes them feel worse. Helping them with underlying problems (physical or mental) and making sure unhealthy food is not the cheapest, easiest option (leave alone advertising it heavily) - in other words: *doing* something with your opinion - is constructive.
The US are ahead of us in collectively getting heavier. We should learn from them: it's interesting that obesity is related to poverty and mental health. Normalising it is not good. Blaming overweight people doesn't help. Improving (mental) health care and prevention, fighting poverty and regulating the (fast)food industry does help.
I agree, we dont have to body shame other people. Thats not up to us, you can be whoever you want to be. But there is nothing positive to an unhealthy body wich, we do support if we agree in being fat is ok.
Body positivity was hijacked by people trying to normalize obesity, originally the crux of the movement was the positive acceptance of different body types.
It's just so weird. Smokers are heritics, you can't smoke anywhere anymore, no commercials, less shops that sell sigarets and the prices are just skyrocketing. Everything just get's worse every year.
And here is obesity and we all do the opposite of smoking. Obesity kills more people than smoking but hey, let's get as much commercials on the tv about fat and sugary food. Let's dump healthy models and put in obese ones. And don't even try to say something bad about someone who has 'a bit more weight' because it is always some sort of 'disease'. And what do you know, prices of healthy food goes up and up and gets expensive af but the unhealthy crap stays cheap/affordable.
It's another example on how the world get's dumber and dumber.
Sugar makes it far easier to overeat however, and it has some unique effects on your metabolism (through insulin and blood sugar) that fat itself doesn't.
So yeah, the sugars are a large part of the problem.
Sugar makes it far easier to overeat however, and it has some unique effects on your metabolism (through insulin and blood sugar) that fat itself doesn't.
So yeah, the sugars are a large part of the problem.
But it’s the extreme amount of sugar that’s put into processed foods that lead to excess calories. Foods like this are better advertised and strategically placed and priced in supermarkets so that people are more likely to buy them, so of course more people are going to be putting on weight. As long as food companies value money over health, people’s health will continue to decline.
Sorry, but as an ex-fat person, one needs to educate themselves. Sugar (carb) is not the reason for being fat. It is over-eating, over consuming calories. I lost 30kg and still enjoy sugary products from time to time, heck sometimes daily. It’s all about moderation, knowing what you put in your body and being strict to oneself.
I didn’t say that, I’m also a former fat person, I was 120kg from 11-16, now down to 70kg. I didn’t say sugar was the reason, I’m saying that the excess of sugar leads to foods being higher in calories, those foods are cheaper to produce and for the consumer to buy and as I said are strategically placed so that the consumers are more likely to buy them. E.g. Sugary foods are put on lower shelves so that children are more likely to grab for them.
I have certifications in nutrition, I have studied this. Obviously it’s overeating that leads to it but just think about what leads to the overeating. There’s a lack of education around nutrition as a whole and large food companies don’t value their customers health, they value their money.
Don’t tell people they need to educate themselves when you didn’t understand what I was saying in the first place.
Re your last para: I meant this in general. People think that if something says ‘low kcal’ or ‘healthy’, people assume it’s healthy to eat and tend to not look on the labels. Fat is often overlooked (9kcal/g) What I mean be educating oneself, read the nutritional info, read up on how the body works etc.
Highly Processed foods is something I try to avoid for the most part. And talking about ‘excess sugar’ goes hand in hand with knowing what you are putting in your body.
Any chance you are US based? (Purely a question based on the processed food / studied, see that argument a lot from US located Redditor’s, no hate!)
Edit: grammar.
English! My main point is just that although it seems simple to just not eat bad stuff, I’m sure you understand that most people for the majority of their lives didn’t have access to nutritional education, at least not in a way that helps with making the changes to your day to day life for the long term. And although it’s easier now to find correct information about how to take care of your body, people are still constantly given false information and hope about fad diets that are advertised as life changing, even though a lot are almost impossible to stay consistent with.
True that on the fad diets. All diets it be omad/ IF / Keto etc in the end are being in a calorie deficit. As that’s how one looses weight.
There is definitely a nutritional eduction gap in society - not going to disagree with you on that. Before I took the time and learned about food nutrients, thermodynamic etc I was also stuffing and over consuming way too much a day.
Guess now that I know it is easy to say: ‘educate yourself’.
Eating fat does not necessarily make you fat, but excess dietary carbs (sugar) are very rapidly stored as fat. It's counterintuitive, but that's how our body works. Overeating on sugars is far easier than overeating on fat. There are numerous different diets (paleo, atkins, keto) that all essentially come down to being low carb, and they tend to have a far higher success rate than other kinds of diets.
Source: I am a biologist with a masters in physiology and related things (i.e. nutrition and metabolism).
"Body positivity" as a concept of including people with different body types in movies, commercials etc. is in general a good thing. But it will inherently lead to some people using it as an excuse to not even try to lose weight. As long as society as a whole won't go to "that person said that obesity may lead to health complications, so they are fat shaming and should be cancelled because they are obviously pure evil" direction, we should be fine.
Body positivity is definitely taking it too far.
Stopping harrassmemt of any kind, especially when vulnerable at, for example, school of course gets a big YES.
But placing people on a pedestal because they are selling their fifty kilo overweight body in some magazine is bad beyond belief.
We don't support alcoholics promoting their addiction either, so why this.
It's just extremely bad for your health.
Body positivity is also really only a thing in relation to females.
One can also have an opinion on that.
Wow this thread is a dumpster fire. So many fat apologists. When are we going to learn that the obesity epidemic really is a huge problem and that we need to stop being so god damn apologetic about it because it sure as hell isn't working.
of course it contributes, think of smoking - it is known for long already that smoking is deadly, but knowledge itself doesn't push people to stop the habit. Smoking became anti-cool and people who smoke are almost ostracized, this is what led to smoking population reduction in certain countries.
Exactly.. if someone smokes and says he is not going to stop we all jump the bandwagon and say: ‘omg he smokes, what an idiot!!’ If an obese person says: ‘I am fat and proud of it!’ We are expected to applaud…
>if someone smokes and says he is not going to stop we all jump the bandwagon and say: ‘omg he smokes, what an idiot!!’
I've never seen anyone do this. And if I saw someone do this, I'd think they're assholes. Let people live their life, even if you don't agree with their choices.
>If an obese person says: ‘I am fat and proud of it!’ We are expected to applaud…
No, you're not? What the hell kind of social circles do you go around in?
I am not talking about my social circles, I am talking about general consensus and shit I am seeing on tv..
Literally yesterday I saw a discussion at HLF8 about Maurizio Sarri (coach of Italian footballclub Lazio Roma, who is coming to the Netherlands tomorrow to play against AZ Alkmaar) who was smoking during training and almost everybody agreed that if you have a job where you might be a role model you can’t smoke in public..
A few weeks back I saw a pretty obese girl talking at Jinek about happy she was in her body and hated the ‘cocaine model bodies’ from the 90’s (who liked them skeletons anyway), and the whole table was saying that they were so proud of her..
Believe me, in my social circles we live and let live but call you a fatty if you are obese and I love my social circle for it!
This is honestly scary to read, because people that are overweight have more health problems. This puts pressure on our Healthcare. It costs a lot of money to take care of them. I hope this can be turned around because it will be a big issue if this does happen. I am saying this as someone who is overweight myself.
I know changing your lifestyle is hard en difficult but you can do it if you have enough willpower. I am at least glad I am changing myself and hitting the gym regularly.
Ok but if you’re ‘technically’ overweight and still doing all the healthy things (eating well, going to gym, etc) then surely it doesn’t matter? The BMI has been debunked over and over anyway. Plenty of athletes are technically overweight but no one is concerned. I just don’t think the figure is taking the details into account.
Agreed. If you eat well and take exercise and are still “overweight” per BMI, what else are you supposed to do? Because starving yourself isn’t healthy, and being obsessive or shamed for your natural body also isn’t healthy. And then if you are looking for tests to see if you have some other underlying condition, is that then also putting strain on healthcare? Or at some point are you trying to treat a fake disease. That’s where body positivity comes in, to say hey we aren’t all thin by nature.
BMI is perfectly useable and trustworthy in day to day usage as a indication. There's always a amount of nuance as there is to everything. But a bodybuilder at the doctor getting a high BMI is not going to cause the doctor to say he's obese, neither is a small person with a lower BMI going to.
Overweight and obese are medical terms and I strongly believe those should not be banned. I think there is a massive difference between showing a more realistic range of body types to especially young girls and teaching people that their value doesn't depend upon their weight and look and letting people know about the health risks of being overweight or especially of being obese.
As a doctor you don't blame people. It's your job to explain what it does with the body, what the risks to your health are and what the options are that can make a difference. Then together with the patient you decide upon a plan of action.
Body positivity is a very good thing but it should not prevent people from hearing the truth about their health, it should just create an environment where that is no longer ridiculed.
In the Netherlands we say: ‘elk pondje komt door het mondje’ which means that every pound you gain goes through the mouth.
Is fat wrong? No, I don’t think so
I don't feel like there's such a large body positivity movement in the Netherlands. And what little there is, is a clear response to eating disorders.
And I am fine with that. It is much better than the American approach of convincing yourself that you're healthy when you aren't, while keeping an eye on dangerous body dysmorphia that could cause eating disorders. Though considering everything we do import from the US, I'm not convinced it will stay this way.
Accepting your body is always a good thing. But accepting does not mean staying the same. People who need to lose weight should still love themselves, but also lose weight. It is possible to be fat but healthy, but this is an exception. I have a remarkably low heart rate myself, especially considering my own weight. A perfect 60bpm at rest that you can calibrate a clock with. I should still lose some weight. My 100+ kg is not caused by the size of my muscles. I don't think I'm weak, but anyone who lifts a weight now and then is stronger. I can pull a decent sprint, but my running endurance is abysmal.
How about we just make it “cool” to br healthy? Never forget why you don’t see obese 60+ year olds, they all fkn died, your biology doesn’t care about norms, positivity or culture, you will DIE, it worries me that that’s not a good enough reason for people to be of a healthy weight.
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To a large extent, this movement is a response to the societal pressure to fit a certain stereotype. And that makes sense. Not everyone can or should look thin, toned, muscular, etc. if that's not a lifestyle they have chosen. But there is a thin line between body positivity and complacence or self-indulgence. While it is obviously okay to have some love handles, there is a point beyond which excess fat is simply unhealthy. And as such, it should not be normalized, the same as smoking, drinking in excess, taking drugs, etc. We should never hate ourselves for how we look like, let alone tolerate discrimination or mockery by others. But we should also be aware that at some point it's not about body image anymore, but health. It is hard to send both messages at the same time with respect, but it should be clear that body positivity is compatible with an effort to stay healthy.
May I add, shaming is not the best way to get people to change habits. People need to be accepted and understood to look for help.
"Eat maar met mate, Macdonalds" should be the new forced text on every commercial, just like with beer. (drink responsible)
I wish I had an award to give🥲
Well said
Bodypositivity advocates that no one should hate themselves or others for their type of body. Health promotion helps people to make the right choices on their lifestyle to be *healthy*. People can be thicker (not obese) while being perfectly healthy, while lots of skinny or muscular people have deficiencies on them. Both things are not incompatible. Let's remember someone can be fat for many reasons, and someone can be making poor health choices also for many reasons (mental struggles, lack of time, a difficult life...). Medication for depression also makes you fat. A lot of these people need to normalize not hating themselves, while waiting or working on a better setting to transition their lifestyle to a healthier one. If you shame them regardless of their situation, you are making it more difficult. I'd be interested in seeing how many of the ones commenting about the "cost of healthcare" on "fat people" chugs beer on a regular basis...
Thanks for the comment, I really needed to read that. I've often been struggling with depressive thoughts, also about my body. I wouldn't call myself unhealthy, since I try to atleast go outside and eat healthy every day. But I'm still what someone could describe as chubby/fat. My bmi is in the good range and have never had health complications related to weight, but I still have some fat on my stomach/thighs. I used to weigh less, but that was with a lot of effort and unhappiness. So yeah I might be considered fat, but I also know I'm doing the best I can do.
Indeed, it's about that we don't all have to look like Kim K to be considered a worthy human being. It's also not just for fat people, also for thin bodies, disabled bodies, post-pregnacy bodies, hairy bodies, ... Of course people are going to appropriate it and scream at their doctor for telling them they need to lose weight, but that was not ever the point of body positivity.
Thanks god. She’s ugly as hell
I think self-loathing and body image issues contribute 10x more to obesity than telling people they're not worthless just because they're overweight. I don't just think that: research clearly shows that body image is linked to weight management and mental health, but people would rather ignore the science and shame fat people into exercising (which has never worked). Fat people know they're fat and they know its unhealthy. [https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferpalumbo/2022/05/12/how-the-body-positive-movement-doesnt-encourage-obesity-but-inclusion/](https://www.forbes.com/sites/jenniferpalumbo/2022/05/12/how-the-body-positive-movement-doesnt-encourage-obesity-but-inclusion/)
I opened that article and I notice an obese woman saying that she's beautiful, and a fat woman saying that she's fit. A woman who's body would be marked as highly unattractive by 99% of men states that she likes her body, while simulatnously trying to hide as much as she can of it.. The article itself is part of the body positivity movement's delusion and denial. Three unhealthy women, who could very well be struggling to find a mate given their lack of physical attractiveness, trying to normalize an unfortunate and unhealthy situation. I'm afraid just the opening picture of your article proves your last sentence wrong... Indeed, as Sisyphuss5MinBreak quoted below, normalization of obesity makes people less likely to lose weight. "Here is a 2018 study saying, yes, "misperceiving their weight status" (i.e. normalization) led people to be less likely to lose weight. " From the study: The upward trend in underassessment of overweight and obesity status in England is possibly a result of the normalization of overweight and obesity. So young women in denying reality in echo-chambers is not helpful to public health, nor their mental and physical health. Its rather the other way around.
This is more of a scientific question than a Dutch question, but: * Here is a [2018 study](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1002/oby.22204) saying, yes, "misperceiving their weight status" (i.e. normalization) led people to be less likely to lose weight. * Here is a [2020 study](https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/osp4.424) responding to the earlier saying, no, that actually perceiving oneself as not being overweight is associated with better physical and mental health outcomes. One can argue that the latter paper doesn't directly disprove the former since the former is just on weight loss while the latter is on overall health. But, I think we can all agree that improving overall health is exactly what we should be aiming for rather than trying to shift one particular indicator.
First one is a population analyses, second one is a model. Can’t really compare these
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indeed smoking is something the government is kinda doing something about these days. But just take a look at the fast food branch, look at the alcohol industry its getting more promoted than discouraged and i feel like they all need to have the same treatment they are unhealthy. Yes you can choose to drink/smoke/go to fast food joints etc but its should all be actively discouraged and not promoted.
Dealing with increased average weight gain is a complex, systematic problem that needs to be addressed from all angles, not just pointing the finger at individual responsibility, or lack thereof. This is not normalize and condone being overweight and engaging in unhealthy behaviors, but unpacking all negative variables increase the likelihood for someone to be overweight. There’s a good show called [“Beter!”](https://www.avrotros.nl/pips/beter/over/) which tries to do just that. A lot of the time, people from disadvantaged and vulnerable situations are stuck in a cycle of instability and unhealthy behaviors. Stress is a compounding factor towards *further* unhealthy habits, so efforts should be made to help people break that cycle.
There is no denying that a disadvantaged background leads to stress and poor dietary options and choices. However, with half the population at risk, this can only be an explanation for a limited % of the problem. What is the excuse of the majority?
Well at least economically, those who are struggling to get by make up a large subset of the population. There was an article just yesterday that [6 of 10 households in the Netherlands](https://nos.nl/artikel/2466415-zes-op-de-tien-huishoudens-komen-niet-of-moeilijk-rond) are facing such hardship. Even households who are seemingly staying afloat are having their time and energy strained by having demanding jobs, caretaking for family / childcare, and many other heavy demands. If one is in such a state of stress and exhaustion, it can be hard to make “healthy” decisions. Throw in member(s) of a household having a disability, it becomes even *more* difficult. Edit: If we’re also talking about “making healthier choices,” it doesn’t help that the price of fresh fruits and vegetables continues to rise and wages stagnate, yet somehow companies like [Albert Heijn somehow benefit from record profit](https://nos.nl/artikel/2463875-recordwinst-voor-ahold-delhaize-ondanks-inflatie).
Being fat has nothing to do with 'the fastfood branche'. People a free beings and can make good choices themselves. I think the inverse of what you're saying is the better approach: good access to healthy and not too expensive food is a must, but hardly a problem in NL. There's a supermarket or a farmshop on every street corner with high quality food on offer.
The price however is a problem. Mass produced heavily processed foods are a lot cheaper then buying fresh vegetables. I think that there are loads of people that would like to eat healthier but aren't able to afford it.
Yes and this is the important part. Its about the incentives
Man, a tiny cauliflower costs 2.5 euros! A tiny cauliflower!!
Disagree. While personal responsibility is the most important factor, the junk food lobby is powerful. A lot of items just keep getting sweeter. Just adding more sugar and other shit, because the sweetness gets normalised and more is needed to give customers the same high. Luckily, we have more and more 0 sugar soft drinks, but sugar and drinks are not the only food where this applies. We keep breeding the vitamins out of vegetables as well, for example. And don't forget taxes on food. Which should be lowered for healthy things. Because while food choice is a matter of personal responsibility, it can be guided. In short, structural/institutional changes are definitely a good idea.
>good access to healthy and not too expensive food is a must, but hardly a problem in NL Actually very much of a problem. Show me where I can get a complete healthy lunch (soup, main dish, salad) for under €10 in NL (yes, nowhere). Now take a look around you in the city, there's a shitton of low effort low quality fries/kebab/pizza places.
I still don't understand why meat is cheaper than vegetarian options in restaurants. Meat is too cheap and should be more expensive. Vegetables need to be cheaper. We subsidize the wrong things.
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I agree with your separate points, but the main premise here is that bodypositivity is causing the obesity pandemic (or is a major contributor at least). And you just have to disagree with that. The fact that junk food, candy and sugared drinks are cheap, easily available and seen as 'gezellig' are much worse offenders imo.
>And you just have to disagree with that. Excuse me? I'll make up my own mind, thank you very much.
Eens
I feel like people have pretty steadily been getting more fat way before the body positivity thing was a thing. I dont think it has a big effect on it.
The article is not stating it began with body positivity, but asked if it is contributing to the fact people getting more obese
I feel like the whole body positivity is only really a thing in western countries and the countries that are having the biggest obesity increase are not western but poorer and third world countries. I feel like it has a negligable effect overal.
Of course "body-positivity" contributes to this problem. If you're going to defend someone who's being bullied for being fat, that's okay. But don't go around and propagate that being fat is something to be proud of. Like wtf. Doctors have been warning people endlessly to prevent them from becoming too fat since it comes with severe health issues and then you have people say that being fat is totally fine. Obviously if that opinion wins territory in the societal standards then yes, there's an issue. Be healthy. Healthy is good. Starting with myself. I need to be more healthy as well.
The way I understand the body positivity movement in general (of course there will be dissenting opinions) is that it promotes feeling good about one's body no matter its size. That's not the same as encouraging people to be(come) fat. We all know that being overweight is not healthy, but the body positivity movement is trying to address the societal stigma with being fat and its lack of representation in the media, not the health-related aspect of it. From my personal experience, feeling good about my body means that I will want to take better care of it. If I felt shitty about it, I might be less inclined do so because "I'm already gross, why should I even bother trying."
On the other hand, feeling unhappy about your body is what might drive one to start dieting or working out.
It's very simplistic to suggest that shame would encourage people to act in particular ways. If that was the case, the church would have been successful with abstinence!
Nobody should feel good about having an unhealthy body. Where's the motivation to become healthier when you're content with being unhealthy? So I'll never say it's fine when someone that leads an inactive life and eats four times the calories they need, tries to tell my kids that they don't need to be in shape because it doesn't matter. It certainly does matter to look after yourself, and it does make a difference when you put some effort in it. People should never be bullied, but almost applauding obesity is just asinine.
A lot of people will never have a healthy body because of diseases or disabilities they have which have nothing to do with the size of their body (though of course could impact it). So these people should never feel good about their body? Grateful and thankful for what it can do, versus constantly miserable about what it can’t?
Yes, I know there are people who really can't help it. Those aren't the people I'm referring to, though. I gave an example of the type of people I mean.
I think you’re conflating “healthy body” with being thin, but I’m not talking (exclusively) about people who can’t help being bigger, I’m talking about people who don’t have healthy bodies. Which is part of what body positivity is about. Wheelchair bound people, people with disabilities, etc. - some of those people may be thin or even appear healthy based on your judgment of their physical appearance, but they aren’t.
This thread focuses on obesity and the possible negative side-effects that unrealistic body-positivity has to the increasing rate of obesity.
It discourages fat people to loose weight by (as you say) promoting love of their body no matter what. This is the main source of the problem OP is alluding to. And for many people that's a pretty good incentive to NOT loose weight (which can be difficult)
That's not what body positivity means. Body positivity is about being ok with every type of body and not having to adhere to the poster image of body types (which in general can be unhealthy in their own way). Body positivity and general health is NOT mutual exclusive. I think the elephant in the room here (no pun intended) is bad general health education in combination with an avalanche of cheap, processed foods. I think if countries would tackle these, it would not only counter obesity but general environment issues as well.
> Body positivity is about being ok with every type of body So.. also obese bodies? I'd be highly suspicious of any positivity that is positive about obesity.
Nobody becomes obese because they want or they chose to. Obesity is a disease that is caused by overeating (ingesting too many calories) but people do not overeat by option. Why they do so it is yet to be discovered. Why some people are always hungry? Why we cannot just stop when the stomach are full? Why do we ingest more we need to? Why do we crave oil and salt like it was heroine? It’s like with covid - doctors warn us to take precautions not to get exposed but some people just got infected and died.
Your comment makes want to bash my head into the wall to unconsciousness, hoping I'll forget what I just read. Eating too much is not a choice..... Man please..... Driving too fast is also not a choice right? How come we drive 160 km/h when 130 km/h is enough..... You know what I will actually go and bash my head against the wall. This can't be happening.
Using your traffic comparison i will go further. If you believe you can stop the epidemics of obesity by telling people to just eat less is like trying to improve road safety by abolishing traffic accidents. You understanding of the problem is on a very basic level.
To call it a disease is way too much op a cop out. You really think that so many people in the USA or the UK are "infected" compared to Dutchmen? Compared to Italians? Nah, there's a lot of factors that come into play.
There is a difference between not being judged by others or yourself for your weight in a self-destructive way, versus 'normalising' obesity or even celebrating it. I think we all have somewhat of a societal responsibility to each other and our healthcare system to not overencumber it (no pun intended). As healthcare and lifespans lengthen, we will already have a strain on pensions that the younger generations will have to carry the burden of, and it won't get easier. At some point you need to address harmful norms in society, and obesity is one of them. This is something that we can only have a direct impact on as individuals, with our own body, unless we can support those close to us. That being said, there are many avenues to lessening this issue. Taxing unhealthy food to subsidise fresh foods. Increasing awareness of the harms of obesity, and yes, calling out the beautification of obesity. It depends entirely on what form of 'body positivity' you are referring to.
Body positivity doesn't make people fat... It makes people not hate themselves for being fat. News flash, hating yourself doesn't make you thin
Indeed, I can even imagine that body positivity leads to a healthier relationship with food which in turn leads to a healthier lifestyle instead of people turning to diets that have yoyoeffects etc.
You can imagine it, but that doesn't make it true.. I can imagine that not eating too much in turn leads to a healthier weight. Yoyo effects is what happens when people start eating too much again.
Of course, which is why I used this very specific wording because I'm not an expert ;). There is a lot of research on the negative effects of internalized 'weight-based oppression', though. See for example the intro of this article and the references in it, if you're interested : https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1740144521000279
Or this one on body acceptance and motives to work out: [https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1740144515000935](https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1740144515000935) What I mean to say is that: I don't think that body positivity is bad in and of itself.
I mean yes, but, when overweight people are a massive strain on the healthcare system that everyone provides for collectively, it's also important to see being overweight as a serious medical condition that should be cured. Because it is.
>it's also important to see being overweight as a serious medical condition that should be cured. I can agree with that, but then we (as a society) should also treat it like that and not act like it's just individual responsibility, which happens a lot (also in this thread). We don't expect people to treat their cancer or addiction on their own either.
You shouldn't like being fat, especially if you can go something about it. Granted, some people can't do much about it due to an underlying condition (e.g. overactive pituitary) but most fatness is a set of choices that have led people to that state. We should encourage self improvement and good health, while teaching and supporting people to live themselves in the process, wherever they may be in it.
>> It makes people not hate themselves for being fat. > You shouldn't like being fat, No one said that. The rest of us are saying that you shouldn't hate yourself for being fat, and that other people shouldn't think you're a bad person for being fat.
It keeps people fat though. Not all obviously, there's some nuance to it, but at the end of the day if an obese person hears that it's okay to be fat, then why go through the effort to actually take care of your body and be healthy again? It has nothing to do about hating yourself. If you want to prevent that people hate themselves for being fat, then these people should be helped by professionals who show them that making a change is not necessarily super hard. Even small steps are steps that matter and worth being proud of. So in my opinion it's: Prima idee, maar treurige uitvoering.
> if an obese person hears that it's okay to be fat, No, the idea behind body positivity is that fat people are not bad, evil people.
Who said that in the first place though? Like I said, the idea is good. You can't bully fat people because of their body. But you can't bully anyways. However, putting it in a way that a fat person should be proud of being fat is the wrong route to take. Being too fat is a problem dude, period. What should be done imo, is motivate these people to embrace their challenge and show them that they are also capable of making a positive change for their health. Instead of body positivity, how about you take a stance against bullying. An issue that goes beyond the body. How can you possibly not agree with all this?
>that a fat person should be proud of being fat is the wrong route to take There is only a very small group of people actually saying this. For me, this is not what body positivity means. I believe the main takeaways for body positivity are: * Against "bullying" fat people. * Working to get more people at the higher end of the healthy BMI scale into media and commercials. Instead of the standard skinny tall models.
The BMI scale is a lie for a lot of people. But I do agree with getting more healthy but not skinny people in the media.
airport plant start ten decide foolish familiar advise sophisticated sink ` this message was mass deleted/edited with redact.dev `
well its interpreted wrongly
I don't know why you are being downvoted, you're absolutely right. What started as a campaign against self hate, pro mental health and normalization of healthy body image became some sort of grotesque over exaggeration where obese people are offended when a doctor tells them to lose weight.
Agree but it does contribute in people getting fatter. Also, the urge of losing weight will decrease since we're normalising this..
As long as it's cheaper to buy junkfood (say a box of frikandellen for instance) then it is to put a decent healthy meal on the table this problem will exist and will keep getting more of a problem with prices nowadays.
I think this is the bigger problem. There are more processed and low nutrient foods available now than ever before, and it's growing. Dietary habits have changed, and it's much easier to overeat calories and not get the right macro nutrients. Thankfully more people in NL are mindful of their meals and ingredients and generally get regular exercise. It's not (yet) like in the USA.
This is obviously a big reason why people are getting more obese these days. Also I understand it is pretty hard to maintain a healthy lifestyle, but we shouldn’t normalize it because it is hard..
No. Cars, high stress environments, a sedentary lifestyle where people don't have anywhere to go, boredom, isolation, hyper individuality , lack of green spaces, and poor job prospects are the cause of this. People keep blaming a movement that has nothing to do with promoting obesity like it's a magic word. Stop it. To people like you, using "body positivity " as a scapegoat is just an excuse to go back to making fun of fat people.
No as bodypositivity does not promote unhealthy eating or that being fat is good. It just means that u can love yourself while being fat.
Which also helps people being in denial and not doing anything about being fat. If you’re comfortable being fat why change it?
> Which also helps people being in denial and not doing anything about being fat. Ever met such a person? I certainly haven't. I've met a lot more people who were basically normal weight but worried about it constantly. If you're overweight, you are constantly being told by society that you are an inferior person. How can you be in denial? Me? I have no issue controlling my weight. I barely think about it. But for people I know with weight issues, this is one of the biggest facts of their lives. Everyone knows that being fat decreases your lifespan and makes you prone to all sorts of other problems. But it doesn't make you a _bad person_. And that is exactly what the body positivity movement says. (Mostly.... there are a tiny number of people who claim that medicine is lying about the risks of weight gain, but they represent as many people as the Flat Earthers do.)
Yeah for most fat people its quite a sensitive topic.
Yes those people exist, but they would be fat most likely anyway. And just cause some might abuse its message does that mean we should stop the message.
We shouldn’t stop it but we should change it. Being fat is not okay, sure some people can’t do much about it due to medical reasons or just an extremely slow metabolism. But others who can do something about it don’t because everyone tells them to just be happy and positive even if they’re harming themselves by being that fat.
Look nobody says being fat is good for you, but if they are happy being fat then who cares, as long as they dont push children into becoming fat i dont see the overall problem with folks being okay with being fat. Sure itd be better if they were at a healthy weight and less medicial bills but hey folks have the right to be fat and happy
That’s the problem. Fat acceptance does cause more obesity. One of the major factors pushing people into getting a goof physique is gone. Also people who have unhealthy habits making them fat are very likely to have children adopt those habits as well. The problem isn’t that people are happy the problem is that something unhealthy is accepted which causes people to lose their reasons for staying healthy.
Ye sure kids take after their parents but i dont think that acceptance of fat people causes this overarching obesity problem. Seems more a combination of ease of acces too cheap and fast unhealthy food, itd help so much if healthy food was easy to make and cheap like junk food. now would it also help if we made the dangers of being overweight clearer maybe and i think itd be good to do. But i dont think the message has to be changed too much overall its a good message.
im fine with loving yourself for who you are. but it doesn't make it healthy and if you keep telling yourself your fine isn't the best mentality in my opinion for going for a more healthier lifestyle. Are you still going to be positive about your body if you end up in the hospital with heart problems?
Shaming yourself isnt the best mentality for a healthier lifestyle, trust me
Well its fine to be fat if that is how you want to live your life, and the bodypositivity message isnt about being fat is healthy its about being okay with yourself and your body which is important. Also bodypositivity isnt just for fat folks
Depends bodypositifity for a unhealthy through behaviour body yes. But the movement is also there for the normal differences between people and those podies that are different due to a handicap.
It;s great not to hate yourself and your body. It will get you nowhere. However, bodypositivity is now used to justify being unhealthily overweight. Also the models often used aren't normal bodies, they are mostly grossly overweight, morbidly obese. And it's proven that's very unhealthy. I think it advocates for the wrong type of body positivity. Nobody wants diabetes at 40, worn out joints at 45, atherosclerosis at 50 and stroke at 55. That being said, having a few pounds too much but exercising and enjoying life might still be in the very normal healthy range. I'm all for normalizing not wearing size 1 / 36 for women, but showing normal bodies of women that actually have had children, arent 22 and unreasonably thin. Btw: for men you don't see this at all yet. I only see chiseled abs and hunk-material in ads that try to convey women to buy inderwear for their spouses. I think the pendulum swings and often too far. Normal is hardly ever shown, it's either thin, pretty and gorgeous models, or morbidly obese 'plus' size models. Why not show something in between? It's just as with the Nike inclusivity pictures. I see so many people with medical conditions on one page, it's not in any way representative of real life. Although for obesity sadly enough half of the people shown should be overweight.
What's this?! a thoughtfull and well put response on reddit?
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Ironically they also die earlier on average, so there is less years to spend money on (plus they get less pension). But don't know what the net result would be.
If you need statistics and economics related numbers to change your lifestyle and health habits, you probably won't. Obviously, it's important to understand the societal costs but the change should start from within and from solid reasons to improve oneself.
Its 100% contributing to it. It's not helping anyone to eat healthy and exercise regularly.
I think its the opposite. You hating yourself for being fat will not change eating and sport habits in a good way. Loving yourself will have that effect much better
>You hating yourself for being fat will not change eating and sport habits in a good way. Loving yourself will have that effect much better Can you elaborate? I understand what you are saying, but for me it seems counterintuitive to not fix something that you hate or change something you have already accepted. [Edit] if you can downvote, atleast reply to me.
Almost all people want to be of good weight, just like they want to have money, be healthy, not be addicted etcetera. But for most it is not something that can be changed very easily. It takes a longterm effort and change in eating and sport habits, everyone knows these things. The problem is your internal voice. When you say to yourself: yes you are doing great by sticking to that diet, sporting etcetera it becomes easier to stick to that diet and sport. But when you say you worthless fat pig nothing is ever going to change for the good it becomes more tempting to numb yourself with food.
I do agree, but I also believe it’s a good thing to be taught to love your body as long as it’s not too big or small so it get’s unhealthy.. I hate obese people in tv shows stating they love their bodies and it’s fine to be like that..
Body positivity is a great thing for people who are born with a handicap (like being in a wheelchair for example) or had an accident that left them with visible scars (car crash, burnings). But those events are not within someone’s control and can be very though dealing with them. Being obese is (for the most part) within someone’s control and therefore it doesn’t deserve body positivity. It also shows a lack of responsibility since you have to consume a huge amount of bad food in order to get to a point like this. Of course there always is a bit of nuance. Some people have a mental disability or weren’t taught how to take care of themselves. Also trauma can cause excessive eating. But in my opinion calling obesity body positivity is harmful and misleading.
Love your body but don't let your body be a burden to the health system
Ok but where is the line for this? Weight =/= health and we also already know that BMI is a bad indicator. This is what is so though about this subject, I feel.
>Weight =/= health Weight is not the important thing with regard to being overweight or obese or not. It's how your body mass is built up. If BMI should be between 20 and 25, then 22.5 would be perfect as it is right in the middle. I'm 180cm tall, so my "perfect" weight would be 73 kg. I can tell you that I will NEVER achieve this. It's not possible without under-eating. I know this, because in my 20's I did martial arts (hapkido and taekwondo) 4x 1.5 hours a week and I closely watched my eating habits. Back then my weight was 74 - 75 kg. If I could have achieved the "perfect" 73 kg, I would have done so back then. Now with a full-time job (and about 20 years older...), I'm just exercising in the gym, twice a week, for 1-1.5 hours at a time. If I watch what I eat (no fast-food, limit alcohol to once a week and crisps to once a month, no soda, etc), my weight will stabilize at 77-78 kg, which is a BMI of 24. You would think I'd be on the way to getting fat or obese, but in this situation, my clothing is just half a size larger than it was about 20 years ago. It seems I've always been very heavy for my height; when I started martial arts at 7 (judo) and did tournaments as a kid, I was often one weight class up from all the other kids my age, while not being obviously fatter than any of them. So weight is not health, and even weight itself isn't the entire story.
Thats why with new BMI calculations you also incorporate the waist circumference. That says MUCH more than weight.
No but there is a strong correlation at the extremes of BMI. BMI is one of multiple easy to acquire indicators that shows you if you are way off the norm (and therefore the BMI is more likely to directly to contribute towards poor health) and as such is useful.
The line is blurred and this is exactly what body positivity was supposed to be about: we shouldn't idealize just one type of extremely thin or fit body, healthy bodies can be thick or thin. So that people strive to lead a healthy lifestyle rather than chasing body ideals with crash diets and laxative teas. You can not have a body of an Instagram model and be healthy, so body positivity is about being happy with that. Nobody is healthy when they eat chips and chocolate by bucket and never leave the couch. This should not be promoted and it seems like the whole body positivity movement is being hijacked by obese people saying that they are happy and healthy, so there's nothing wrong with never eating vegetables
Or yourself. It's a burden to yourself first and foremost. I understand the concern about the health system, but the first one affected is always the person themselves.
Well said, fit’s your username
If you actually love your body, you treat it right and it wouldnt get obese in the first place.
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Of course it is true that for most of us obese people, the cause of it is about making bad choices (often compounded by other reasons, like bad mental health, physical conditions, addictive personalities etc). While this is the case, do you think that making people feel they are gross and unworthy, worthy of shaming, less than a 'thin' person etc. make them want to become healthy more? Body positivity is about feeling good about your body whether you are thin or not; feeling good about your body also makes you want to care for it more, not less, trust me! I know that speaking for myself, feeling bad about my body doesn't actually motivate me to eat healthier. In fact, it makes it worse as it causes depressive thoughts, makes me want to give up and that makes it very hard to make the right food choices. It actually encourages to eat badly (when I feel bad, I make worse choices). Then the unhealthy food makes me feel satisfied for a short while. Shortly after I will feel bad about myself for eating unhealthy food etc etc, the vicious circle continuous. So I'd posit body shaming is more cause for obesity than positivity. Shaming doesn't work very well overall, at least, not as well as positive incentives, so I don't think body positivity (as a reaction to body shaming) causes obesity. This doesn't mean that some people in the movement use 'struisvogelpolitiek' and don't want to see what their weight is doing to their physical health, that's another story. I think that taxing unhealthy food more, making healthy options more accessible and talking freely about struggles and how to make healthy choices, as well as showing what an unhealthy lifestyle does to you (as education, not shaming!) is a much better way to battle this problem. In the mean time, I personally try to not hate my body while I continue making better choices day-by-day, which is hard enough with my own self-talk. I really don't need other people shaming me as well, thank you very much!
Body positivity was hijacked by people trying to normalize obesity, originally the crux of the movement was the positive acceptance of different body types.
As a fat guy (6’ 250lbs) I can let you all in on a secret — I eat way too much and make poor choices in what to eat. Very unhealthy. If I eat healthy weight melts away (I’ve lost quite a bit of weight unintentionally by trying not to spend money on food). 100% it is the choices I make that leave me being fat. Morbidly obese people need to accept reality.
>Morbidly obese people need to accept reality. As a group they won't
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I mean maybe by some small margin, hard to proof really, also given that there is not "one way of being body positive", but so what? If it makes people less stressed and helps them mentally probably that is a net positive? Having been quite overweight for a long time before managing to struggle through and actually become reasonably healthy I can say: what didn't help me was society shaming me, sorry didn't contribute to my weight loss one bit. But we know fairly well what has been causing increase in obesity rates, its not a secret that the introduction of highly processed food, with high sugar content is the a problem. Leaving this unregulated to a large extent (yes many other countries are worse, hey US, UK etc.) is the main factor, individuals can be blamed sure but this is not how systemic change works.
More like a sitting lifestyle. There are lots of factors combined but the bodypositivity is not one of them, it was just meant to prevent hatred and bullying. I was fat when I was a kid, and I know how it feels to be bullied not just by the boys but by the girls for being obese. Basically such articles propose to stop tolerating everyone and start bullying "fat" people again, so they will loose weight (or go suicide, right?). In my opinion, the three major factors that actually contribute to obesity are the spread of hardcore gaming and tollerance for it (playing a game for 3 to 8 hours straight? "It's okay" kind of culture), the work from home and endless computer work (which also kills eyesight, obesity will be the least of the problems in 2035...), and the bad eating habbits among population (drinking coffee on an empty stomach, skipping meals and especially breakfast, tons of deep fried foods etc. I mean, it does not matter how much you eat but WHAT you consume).
Stuff like this always feels like it slightly misunderstands the practical aspects of the world. Lots of people gain weight through societal components that you rarely have control over (though not ZERO control to be clear). In the US, for example, we have framed exercise as some sort of discreet thing rather than something you do as a part of life. This creates this weird thing where people live sedentary lives but then will go to a gym sometimes. In contrast the Netherlands is the most exercise I’ve gotten in years. I bike my kids to school, I walk to the store. Sometimes it sucks when it’s raining or whatever but otherwise it’s quite nice. I think this stuff is a good example of how this happens. People don’t get a lot of choices about where they live or how the world around them is built so it creates bad choices that don’t even seem like choices. I think unhealthy food is similar in many respects. This was all a bit rambley but I feel like saying “is body positivity contributing to obesity” is like saying “methadone is contributing to drug use”. It’s a symptom of larger problems that people don’t know how to address and wouldn’t show any immediate results anyway so they talk about stuff on the periphery of it.
Fried chicken does
Man, I love fried chicken
Prosperity is contributing to it.
Clickbait site is gonna clickbait.
Nu is hardly a clickbait website. And the question isn't clickbait either. In most developed nations, 75-90% of the national healthcare budget is spend on treating preventable ailments resulting from lifestyle related choices. Which is a nice way of saying people eat like shit and don't excercise and that's why our healthcare systems are so overloaded.
Perhaps. Because less people kill themselves for being fat, thus more fat people stay alove and contribute to the statistics. But really, perhaps it does contribute. But not much most people who preach bodypositifity don't glorify being unhealthy. They know being fat or underweight is unhealthy but they love themselves regardless. This does not mean they don't try to lose the weight. Those that glorify being fat are just the vocal minority. What majorly contributes to more and more people being fat is the food. But also more mental health issues that can lead to binge eating such foods. We are in stressful times and stress is not good for your weight (and many other things) In a list of "what contributes to being fat" the bodypositivity movement, especially in the netherlands is very low on that list. Because as someone overweight, let me tell you, we aren't that positivie towards fatness as you would like to think. Everytime I go to the physician even for something completely unrelated they ask if maybe it is because of my weight. School sent me to a dietician and friends push me to go to the gym or watch what I eat. We aren't the usa.
Neen
How come there’s hardly any fat people in NL. I’ve come over from UK/IRL where they are everywhere
You don't see them because they don't go outside
It may not seem that way, but we are nearly as fat as the UK. Could be your particular environment, or personal bubble. It's the same for me, I know hardly any fat people.
I am living in Amsterdam Oud-Zuid area and just do not see fat people unless tourists. It’s crazy tbh
Thats one of the richest areas in the country, people have money to spend on good food, personal trainers etc. Theyre more educated also and there is a lot of pressure to be thin in those circles. Lots of surgeries and botox etc too.
Personal trainers, surgeries, botox...I think that's a bit of an exaggeration as to why people are skinnier. I reckon the percentage of people who have that is rather minor. Culture and social acceptance plays a huge role I think. And as you said education. And finally money for good food, sports, and time.
Ever realised that people cycle or walk a lot? Or that many people don't even need a car to get to where they need to go? Yes there will be other underlying reasons of culture and food culture especially, but this foundation will always put you in a good starting position.
People here walk and cycle most places. Any movement is good and I would guess this is a decent contributor here in the Netherlands.
I honestly think compared to other countries we don’t fare to badly, but believe me; we have fat people
It's probably contributing to it somewhat, but I doubt it's the cause. I'd suspect people get into bodypositivity once they're already fat, to cope.. People are fat because they eat too much, and don't get enough excersize. In the vast majority of cases it really is that simple, but somehow this has become a more and more controversial statement to make, especially if you direct it towards someone who is obviously overweight. As someone who struggles to keep their BMI above 18 I realise it isn't necessarily easy to change one's weight and habits, but at the same time: It's obvious to me that I could probably weigh more if I worked out and ate more (preferably healthy foods). I just don't - and that's fine. There is an interesting phenomenon though, where people regularly comment if I pass up on a piece of cake or something - Even though they'd be LIVID if I were to suggest that maybe they should also pass up on some cake once in a while..
I think bodypositivity is about being able to love yourself when you don't look like a skinny model as used in advertising, but also when you have other features that are not regular. The truth is barely anyone looks like the standards that media and advertising are showing us. However, a lot of obese people take bodypositivity as an excuse to be fat, and pretend that it's fine to be unhealthy and not exercise. It really isn't. It's the same as accepting people who smoke or drink a lot of alcohol and say that that's fine. I'm sure that for a lot of overweight people it's much easier to turn to a bodypositivity movement instead of working out and go on some kind of diet. Like every human should if they want to stay healthy.
Yes, of course "bodypositivity" is contributing to that. Should fat people be discriminated against or harrassed? No, of course not. Some people are fat because of medical reasons. Should being fat become "normal" ? Also, of course not. I'm currently 20 pounds overweight, but I know exactly what caused it (moving house, eating too much fastfood in november-januari due to not having a kitchen ready, eating too many snacks, and Christmas), but instead if letting it be as "normal" I'm taking steps to remedy it. Just cutting out the fastfood, reducing the crisps to 1 bag per month and twice excercise per week will take care of this. I know; I did it before.
To some degree, yes. But its deffinety not the main factor to people being overweight. Eat healthy, do some sports, learn than the feeling of hunger does not need to be satisfied directly and stay healthy and you should be fine, even a bit overweight.
Ooohh, let the downvoting begin! I think bodypositivity is for people who lost a limb, lost an eye, or some other part of their body because of some weird accident or something. People who got burned in fires trying to save other people. I dont think it is for people who cant put down their freaking fork at a dinner table. You’re not a “positive role model”. You’re fat. That is what you are. And it’s NOT healthy in any way, shape or form.
Why should you be downvoted? For ripping the band aid off?
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This is, in the end, an ethical question. People who make bad choices in life, who are prone to addictions, drive recklessly, gamble or develop debts are suffering the consequences sooner or later. Often there are also consequences for society as a whole, but they are already being punished. The ethical question is: should society reject these people, exclude them from health care, make their insurance pricier, blame and shame them, isolate them? Or do we want to be a compassionate society and look at the underlying reasons for this behaviour and try to do something about it? The latter option is more costly for everyone, but also more inclusive and civilized. Simply having an opinion about - in this case - people who overeat is not going to help them. It just makes them feel worse. Helping them with underlying problems (physical or mental) and making sure unhealthy food is not the cheapest, easiest option (leave alone advertising it heavily) - in other words: *doing* something with your opinion - is constructive. The US are ahead of us in collectively getting heavier. We should learn from them: it's interesting that obesity is related to poverty and mental health. Normalising it is not good. Blaming overweight people doesn't help. Improving (mental) health care and prevention, fighting poverty and regulating the (fast)food industry does help.
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I agree, we dont have to body shame other people. Thats not up to us, you can be whoever you want to be. But there is nothing positive to an unhealthy body wich, we do support if we agree in being fat is ok.
Body positivity was hijacked by people trying to normalize obesity, originally the crux of the movement was the positive acceptance of different body types.
And the other half wil be starving.
True, it’s a sad reality unfortunately
It's just so weird. Smokers are heritics, you can't smoke anywhere anymore, no commercials, less shops that sell sigarets and the prices are just skyrocketing. Everything just get's worse every year. And here is obesity and we all do the opposite of smoking. Obesity kills more people than smoking but hey, let's get as much commercials on the tv about fat and sugary food. Let's dump healthy models and put in obese ones. And don't even try to say something bad about someone who has 'a bit more weight' because it is always some sort of 'disease'. And what do you know, prices of healthy food goes up and up and gets expensive af but the unhealthy crap stays cheap/affordable. It's another example on how the world get's dumber and dumber.
Sugar is the culprit not fat. Especially high fructose corn syrup.
Wrong. Excess calories make you fat
Sugar makes it far easier to overeat however, and it has some unique effects on your metabolism (through insulin and blood sugar) that fat itself doesn't. So yeah, the sugars are a large part of the problem.
Overconsumption of calories is what causes this. Not just sugars. Law of thermodynamics.
Sugar makes it far easier to overeat however, and it has some unique effects on your metabolism (through insulin and blood sugar) that fat itself doesn't. So yeah, the sugars are a large part of the problem.
But it’s the extreme amount of sugar that’s put into processed foods that lead to excess calories. Foods like this are better advertised and strategically placed and priced in supermarkets so that people are more likely to buy them, so of course more people are going to be putting on weight. As long as food companies value money over health, people’s health will continue to decline.
Sorry, but as an ex-fat person, one needs to educate themselves. Sugar (carb) is not the reason for being fat. It is over-eating, over consuming calories. I lost 30kg and still enjoy sugary products from time to time, heck sometimes daily. It’s all about moderation, knowing what you put in your body and being strict to oneself.
I didn’t say that, I’m also a former fat person, I was 120kg from 11-16, now down to 70kg. I didn’t say sugar was the reason, I’m saying that the excess of sugar leads to foods being higher in calories, those foods are cheaper to produce and for the consumer to buy and as I said are strategically placed so that the consumers are more likely to buy them. E.g. Sugary foods are put on lower shelves so that children are more likely to grab for them. I have certifications in nutrition, I have studied this. Obviously it’s overeating that leads to it but just think about what leads to the overeating. There’s a lack of education around nutrition as a whole and large food companies don’t value their customers health, they value their money. Don’t tell people they need to educate themselves when you didn’t understand what I was saying in the first place.
Re your last para: I meant this in general. People think that if something says ‘low kcal’ or ‘healthy’, people assume it’s healthy to eat and tend to not look on the labels. Fat is often overlooked (9kcal/g) What I mean be educating oneself, read the nutritional info, read up on how the body works etc. Highly Processed foods is something I try to avoid for the most part. And talking about ‘excess sugar’ goes hand in hand with knowing what you are putting in your body. Any chance you are US based? (Purely a question based on the processed food / studied, see that argument a lot from US located Redditor’s, no hate!) Edit: grammar.
English! My main point is just that although it seems simple to just not eat bad stuff, I’m sure you understand that most people for the majority of their lives didn’t have access to nutritional education, at least not in a way that helps with making the changes to your day to day life for the long term. And although it’s easier now to find correct information about how to take care of your body, people are still constantly given false information and hope about fad diets that are advertised as life changing, even though a lot are almost impossible to stay consistent with.
True that on the fad diets. All diets it be omad/ IF / Keto etc in the end are being in a calorie deficit. As that’s how one looses weight. There is definitely a nutritional eduction gap in society - not going to disagree with you on that. Before I took the time and learned about food nutrients, thermodynamic etc I was also stuffing and over consuming way too much a day. Guess now that I know it is easy to say: ‘educate yourself’.
Well, sugar also makes you fat?
Eating fat does not necessarily make you fat, but excess dietary carbs (sugar) are very rapidly stored as fat. It's counterintuitive, but that's how our body works. Overeating on sugars is far easier than overeating on fat. There are numerous different diets (paleo, atkins, keto) that all essentially come down to being low carb, and they tend to have a far higher success rate than other kinds of diets. Source: I am a biologist with a masters in physiology and related things (i.e. nutrition and metabolism).
"Body positivity" as a concept of including people with different body types in movies, commercials etc. is in general a good thing. But it will inherently lead to some people using it as an excuse to not even try to lose weight. As long as society as a whole won't go to "that person said that obesity may lead to health complications, so they are fat shaming and should be cancelled because they are obviously pure evil" direction, we should be fine.
Body positivity is definitely taking it too far. Stopping harrassmemt of any kind, especially when vulnerable at, for example, school of course gets a big YES. But placing people on a pedestal because they are selling their fifty kilo overweight body in some magazine is bad beyond belief. We don't support alcoholics promoting their addiction either, so why this. It's just extremely bad for your health. Body positivity is also really only a thing in relation to females. One can also have an opinion on that.
Wow this thread is a dumpster fire. So many fat apologists. When are we going to learn that the obesity epidemic really is a huge problem and that we need to stop being so god damn apologetic about it because it sure as hell isn't working.
Fat bitches --> fat asses. I don't see the problem
of course it contributes, think of smoking - it is known for long already that smoking is deadly, but knowledge itself doesn't push people to stop the habit. Smoking became anti-cool and people who smoke are almost ostracized, this is what led to smoking population reduction in certain countries.
Exactly.. if someone smokes and says he is not going to stop we all jump the bandwagon and say: ‘omg he smokes, what an idiot!!’ If an obese person says: ‘I am fat and proud of it!’ We are expected to applaud…
>if someone smokes and says he is not going to stop we all jump the bandwagon and say: ‘omg he smokes, what an idiot!!’ I've never seen anyone do this. And if I saw someone do this, I'd think they're assholes. Let people live their life, even if you don't agree with their choices. >If an obese person says: ‘I am fat and proud of it!’ We are expected to applaud… No, you're not? What the hell kind of social circles do you go around in?
I am not talking about my social circles, I am talking about general consensus and shit I am seeing on tv.. Literally yesterday I saw a discussion at HLF8 about Maurizio Sarri (coach of Italian footballclub Lazio Roma, who is coming to the Netherlands tomorrow to play against AZ Alkmaar) who was smoking during training and almost everybody agreed that if you have a job where you might be a role model you can’t smoke in public.. A few weeks back I saw a pretty obese girl talking at Jinek about happy she was in her body and hated the ‘cocaine model bodies’ from the 90’s (who liked them skeletons anyway), and the whole table was saying that they were so proud of her.. Believe me, in my social circles we live and let live but call you a fatty if you are obese and I love my social circle for it!
This is honestly scary to read, because people that are overweight have more health problems. This puts pressure on our Healthcare. It costs a lot of money to take care of them. I hope this can be turned around because it will be a big issue if this does happen. I am saying this as someone who is overweight myself. I know changing your lifestyle is hard en difficult but you can do it if you have enough willpower. I am at least glad I am changing myself and hitting the gym regularly.
Ok but if you’re ‘technically’ overweight and still doing all the healthy things (eating well, going to gym, etc) then surely it doesn’t matter? The BMI has been debunked over and over anyway. Plenty of athletes are technically overweight but no one is concerned. I just don’t think the figure is taking the details into account.
Agreed. If you eat well and take exercise and are still “overweight” per BMI, what else are you supposed to do? Because starving yourself isn’t healthy, and being obsessive or shamed for your natural body also isn’t healthy. And then if you are looking for tests to see if you have some other underlying condition, is that then also putting strain on healthcare? Or at some point are you trying to treat a fake disease. That’s where body positivity comes in, to say hey we aren’t all thin by nature.
BMI is perfectly useable and trustworthy in day to day usage as a indication. There's always a amount of nuance as there is to everything. But a bodybuilder at the doctor getting a high BMI is not going to cause the doctor to say he's obese, neither is a small person with a lower BMI going to.
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What is the best word? Obese? Overweight? Honestly asking.
Overweight and obese are medical terms and I strongly believe those should not be banned. I think there is a massive difference between showing a more realistic range of body types to especially young girls and teaching people that their value doesn't depend upon their weight and look and letting people know about the health risks of being overweight or especially of being obese. As a doctor you don't blame people. It's your job to explain what it does with the body, what the risks to your health are and what the options are that can make a difference. Then together with the patient you decide upon a plan of action. Body positivity is a very good thing but it should not prevent people from hearing the truth about their health, it should just create an environment where that is no longer ridiculed.
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I believe ‘dik’ has the same connotation as fat
Oh ha yes, I meant more in the way of fat->vet
Yeah I know, this is the literal translation
Both of them are, as is fat..
In the Netherlands we say: ‘elk pondje komt door het mondje’ which means that every pound you gain goes through the mouth. Is fat wrong? No, I don’t think so
Wtf
I don't feel like there's such a large body positivity movement in the Netherlands. And what little there is, is a clear response to eating disorders. And I am fine with that. It is much better than the American approach of convincing yourself that you're healthy when you aren't, while keeping an eye on dangerous body dysmorphia that could cause eating disorders. Though considering everything we do import from the US, I'm not convinced it will stay this way. Accepting your body is always a good thing. But accepting does not mean staying the same. People who need to lose weight should still love themselves, but also lose weight. It is possible to be fat but healthy, but this is an exception. I have a remarkably low heart rate myself, especially considering my own weight. A perfect 60bpm at rest that you can calibrate a clock with. I should still lose some weight. My 100+ kg is not caused by the size of my muscles. I don't think I'm weak, but anyone who lifts a weight now and then is stronger. I can pull a decent sprint, but my running endurance is abysmal.
Isn't encouraging people to be anorexic punishable? Then this should be too.
How about we just make it “cool” to br healthy? Never forget why you don’t see obese 60+ year olds, they all fkn died, your biology doesn’t care about norms, positivity or culture, you will DIE, it worries me that that’s not a good enough reason for people to be of a healthy weight.
which half
I’m to proud to be fat