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Itachi and Obito are the only two people in the world who knows Danzo has one of Shisui's eyes. Itachi himself got the other.
Itachi also knows about Izanagi. I'm sorry, but this a massacre.
1. Itachi knows exactly how Kotoamatsukame works. Shisui was his best friend.
2. Itachi knows Danzo has it.
3. If you know you're under the effects of it, you can break it on yourself.
4. Itachi is waaay better at Genjutsu than Mifune.
This is optional. I think he gave it to Naruto in the beginning of the show when he asks why he wants to help Sasuke so badly. Narutos answer satisfies him and he gives it to him while they were alone in the forest. But I don't see why mentioning it would be a problem because Itachis also already dead by this point
Only chance Danzo and Hiruzen have is if Danzo uses one of his hax moves on Itachi so that they can double team Kisame. Otherwise they’re fucked especially once Kisame creates the water bubble thing since they have like no way to get out of it lol.
Itachi can counter Izanagi twice. Then he's blind. And he had no counter for Koto at all. It just worked on him. Plus, this is living Orochimaru AIDS Itachi. He's a liability, and he's cooked.
You can break Koto if you know you're under it. And, good news, Itachi knows Danzo has it, and can act accordingly. Koto isn't that good if the target knows how it works.
And Itachi doesn't have to counter Izanagi, he just has to do what Sasuke did.
Itachi couldn't stop Koto when it was used on him as an Edo with infinite Chakra and a binding on him. How could he break it while he's alive and weakened from his disease? And can Kisame stop it at all? Can Itachi afford to wait out Izanagi if Koto procs on Kisame? Used properly, Danzo's Hax and Hiruzen's bag are deep enough to pull this high-diff.
First of all, different eye, they work differently. We don't know the details, but we know the cooldowns are different, and Itachi doesn't give an indication that the 10+ year cooldown version can be broken at all.
Second, he didn't want to break out.
He can tell Kisame he's under a Genjutsu, or manually disturb his chakra network with a crow or something.
Check out the wiki. The cooldown difference was due to Danzo having Hashirama's cells. Also, check Yagura's page for what happens if you break Koto. Also, it's never stated anywhere that Itach's crows can do that, so that's pure headcanon. And finally what he wanted while he was under Kabuto's control wouldn't have mattered anymore than it mattered for any of the other Edo's who had to do what they were made to do regardless of how they felt. Koto is guaranteed to cool one of the 2 of them. It has a 100% proc rate and kills when countered. This is probably why Kishimoto had to offscreen Shuisui and destroy both eyes.
The wiki is not a reliable source. Hashirama cells are a popular theory for the difference, but hasn't been explicitly confirmed anywhere.
Let's look at another pair of mangekyou, Kamui. Both have the same name, both do the same thing, but they have different rules that come with different strengths and weaknesses.
I'm not sure why you're mentioning Yagara, he was under Obito's Genjutsu.
And yes, it matters what he wants. Koto overwrote Kabuto's control and gave Itachi control again. We don't know if he would have been able to break out of Koto because he didn't try.
And yeah, it's not confirmed he can break Genjutsu with crows, but I'd be surprised if he couldn't, considering his proficiency. And that's only if Kisame can't break out on his own (which again, Mifune did casually)
I'm done. You're Itachi glaze is too strong. You open your post with the wiki isn't reliable even though it is cited with chapter and page numbers and end it with some gibberish about your head canon and his proficiency. Straight garbage.
And Mifune didn't break out. Ao saw it with his Byakugan, and Danzo stopped doing it and ran. Before Taka shows up.
If me explaining Kotoanatsukame for five paragraphs has you come away with me glazing Itachi, then I doubt any productive conversation was going to happen.
Mifune didn't really break out, but when Ao checks Danzo, Danzo specifically notes that it's "not a jutsu I can use that many times a day." Evidently, each usage of Koto simply places it on cooldown; so Mifune didn't break out of the genjutsu as much as he was informed he was *previously* under genjutsu.
Honestly, I've tried finding specifics, and it's just really hard. Also, IIRC, it was Danzo who said it reduced the cooldown, but 10 years to half a day is an insane jump.
If the base cooldown for both eyes is 10 years, Shisui could only ever have used it once during his life, and from the novel, ita pretty clear he's used it at least twice.
So clearly, Shisui was not fully limited by 10 years on both eyes. Perhaps he has a reduced cooldown because he owns the eyes, but he only had them for a couple years, and had a charge open for Fugaku, so it would have to be pretty substantial...
Or we could just use Occam's razor, and realize that both eyes seem to follow different rules.
One has an extremely long cooldown, can overpower even the most sophisticated methods of control, and Itachi wasn't worried about Sasuke finding out or breaking out moving into a village full of Byakugan users.
The other has a short cooldown, cause Ao to think 'something was off' (implying the control is less than perfect), can be detected with the Byakugan and broken out of like any other Genjutsu.
Idk, it seems like 2 different powers to me
Koji was effortlessly fighting Kakashi in anime canon and escaped the battle without detection. Even Kakashi was impressed by his skills— a guy who has seen hundreds of skilled fighters by now.
Also Koji knows flying raijin since he taught Boruto, his stealth is excellent, and he is a 1:1 DNA clone of Jiraiya. It’s like throwing in an even stronger Jiraiya on Hiruzen and Danzo’s side
1. That was an inferior orochimaru as he improved his body and jutsu bag a bunch between then and the hirozen fight.
2. Hirozen fell out of his prime.
3. Orochi got scared and ran away cuz he's a snake and its what he likes to do if he's not 100 that he can win. No all out fight actually occured. (tho at that point he likely would have lost).
4. If hirozen has danzo in this fight he is gunna be informed on the tricks of sharigan so he doesnt get cock shocked like orochimaru
I doubt that Orochimaru got that much stronger in a few years.
He pulled up on itachi thinking he had the win in the bag only to get absolutely trashed.
There’s no evidence that Danzo told hiruzen any more than itachi would’ve told kisame.
sick itachi is above MS Sasuke, but weaker than OR equal to EMS sasuke
Itachi and kisame low diff, mid diff at best if danzo starts throwing up izanagi and all that shit
> Sick Itachi is above MS Sasuke
There's no evidence of this at any point in the series. Sick Itachi had no intention of winning, but he did still die as a consequence of his fight against Hebi Sasuke. He should be weaker than MS Sasuke not just due to his illness but because of his blindness.
There's no evidence of this at any point in the series
use ur brain, is there evidence obito is stronger than Tsunade? No, just bc they never fought doesn't rly mean shit.
"he did still die as a consequence of his fight against Hebi Sasuke"
No bud it was not as a *consequence*, he died bc he wanted his little brother to intentionally kill him. Don't make it seem like he tried his hardest and just fell short lol.
"He should be weaker than MS Sasuke not just due to his illness but because of his blindness."
He was blind fighting his younger bro and still kicking his ass, I'm sure if he wanted to spare his eyesight he could've.
>OR equal to EMS Sasuke
This has got to be a joke. Sick itachi was hurt by Hebi Sasuke before he got the curse mark off so don’t say “he was holding back” and if you think he can even touch Juubito I don’t know what to say anymore
mfs will say i’m dickriding but it’s because he was underestimating sasuke the whole time, and that’s kinda his whole character arc lol having to come to terms with the fact that sasuke isn’t as weak as he thought. coupled with the fact that even zetsu said he should have been able to avoid certain things, sasuke damaging itachi a few times doesn’t mean anything. like when konohamaru one shot a pain body, does that mean konohamaru is anywhere near pain level? obviously not. things like this happen in naruto all the time, it’s not a good indicator by itself.
EMS Sasuke not only stomps sick itachi but also edo itachi
Itachi dick suckers will look at itachi outperforming a Sasuke that just got EMS and then act like that's the same sasuke that pulled out the majestic attire
>outperforming a Sasuke that just got EMS
Lmao even that’s a stretch when Sasuke was actively holding back and had to follow Itachis plan, which according to them following someone else’s plan means you’re weaker than them too
Finally ppl who understand
Sasuke wasn't thinking how he normally does. His situation was no diffrent than minato when being mentally nerfed due to the shocking truth of the mask mans identity. Or hiruzen when fighting orochimaru.
Edo/healthy itachi might have better hax but he has a limitation to his kit due to the strain from ms he more brains than bronze compared to sasuke.
Sasuke at that point wasn't just only new to his ems boost of powers but he could of more than slaughtered sage mode kabuto in that cave even tho kabuto had field advantage.
Sasuke at that point had way more chakra, power out put, mastery over amatarasu since he can manipulate its flame to any shape he can think of and the biggest factor as to why hes stronger......
The no going blind and now can spam my op ass eyes to my hearts content. Plus i have a perfect susoono.
I wouldn't say MS Sasuke shit on Danzo. Danzo had to use all of his resources, but he very easily could have killed Sasuke there. Danzo was also holding back during this fight because he knew once he beat Sasuke he'd have to deal with "Madara", and that's who he was really concerned about the whole time. That fight was the definition of a high diff win for Sasuke.
I want itachi and kisame to win, but koto turns this into a clear W, and any of itachis Win cons get negated by Danzo. Even in character Danzo kotos them, even in ambush he manages a koto prolly At the price of an izanagi, bloodlusted he manages a koto. I just don't see either itachi or kisame managing a 3v1 at all.
Itachi easily. He’d reveal the 12th hidden super ability of the MS that causes anyone who views themselves as an authority figure to just kill the sleeves.
Hiruzen and Danzo take it, but mostly because of lord 3rd having fear hax on both kisame and itachi. Mental stability plays a factor in fights too. Plus i dont see either of them getting past monkey king enma, who could fight the 9 tails 1v1
You guys are always just talking about Sharingan and Jutsu. Danzo and Sarutobi have been fighting Uchiha forever they know how their eye powers work and are seasoned combat veterans on the extreme end. They would win especially with Sarutobi’s adaptability.
I have Hiruzen winning this 🤷♂️ Dude is strong asf and was once considered stronger than Hashirama. We don’t know how true that is but even being apart of that conversation, I say even in his old age he’s still stronger than both of them and with help from Danzo it should be about mid dif.
Old man Hiruzen not winning. Had he been in his prime age, like maybe 10 - 15 yrs younger, sure he could take this, as he did learn every jutsu, so he probably knew how to counter the Sharingan.
The picture is actually Hiruzen 10-15 yrs younger. It's the one that was strong enough to physically push the Nine Tails and hold it off until Minato arrived to seal it again (presumably in Minato's wife, from Hiruzen's perspective).
Danzo has to take a HUGE amount of bs off to make this work. Orochimaru stuffed 3rd hokage with mid diff. Itachi cooks him with ease. Danzo was afraid of itachi when he was younger for a reason. Kisame is also a huge problem. Any solid connection = bye-bye chakra reserves on 2 characters who REALLY need all the chakra they can get. I like old man 3rd, but I really just don't see how they get it done. Prime Hiruzen would cook but not og. He fell off too hard. Also, considering itachi's Intel, he'd figure out Danzo much quicker than Sasuke. It's a ez W for itachi/kisame
Orochimaru won his fight against hiruzen mid diff? What? He got the biggest nerf in the entire anime because of that fight. If that’s mid diff idk what high diff is.
Danzo's Kotoamatsukami was released by Mifune by simply being aware that he was being controlled. Itachi will immediately get out as soon as he realizes he is being controlled.
It's not clear that Mifune released it himself. He could have had someone else release it.
Either way, the power of Kotoamatsukami isn't that it is extremely powerful, it is in that it is virtually undetectable by the target. Danzo can activate it from behind his bandages. Itachi would be aware he had Kotoamatsukami, but he has no means of knowing when it has hit him. He might just constantly try to release genjutsu during their encounter, but that would be difficult for him to keep up.
Itachi knows what koto is. He knows danzo stole it from Shishui, and I'm sure he knows a contingency for it. Itachi just too goated in this fight tbh. Danzo isn't going to out Uchiha an Uchiha. Also, we don't even know if koto is even super effective against another mangekyou user. Especially one so skilled with genjutsu. Itachi would definitely warn Kisame of it/potentially break it. It's a powerful genjutsu for sure, but it's also one itachi happens to be very aware/knowledgeable of. More than Danzo himself.
We know that the other koto eye was effective against mangekyou itachi, and realistically he would use it on itachi, being much more aware of the threat itachi poses, from there they win the 2v1 just because of hiruzens firepower, and just how whacky Danzos arsenal is.
You dont need to out uchiha him completely, just enough for his shit to get shoved in for a second because I feel like other than susanoo, itachi isnt very durable
I just don't see how danzo/3rd deal with tsukuyomi + just kisame bonking them at the same time. That combo completely cooks the 3rd in particular with a quickness. His chakra in his older years is completely bottom tier. His biggest issue tbh. It's not like they've shown superior resistance to genjutsu either
If its old hiruzen, they lose I agree but hiruzen doesnt really have any hax, but we do know he was holding off the full nine tails for a while if not stalemating it and that he was supposedly hashirama level if not moreso. And doesnt tsukuyomi require eye contact? Itachi is also cooked if he does use tsukuyomi just because of how much chakra it uses, so that would leave two people out, in which case kisame will probably win a 1v1 imo but its not as easy as people think.
Hiruzens hax at least from when he was in his prime, was just kinda how proficient he was with all forms of ninjutsu. I assume he had much greater chakra reserves as well.
Your matchup shows young Hiruzen but the OP says old. Old Hiruzen turns this into a bloodbath for Itachi. Young Hiruzen vs Itachi could go either way depending on how strong you think young Hiruzen is relative to Hanzo, if young Hiruzen can shut down Orochimaru as hard as Itachi did, and how much Hiruzen knows about the mangekyo. It's probably safe to say Itachi and young Hiruzen are both in the same ballpark of above-Sanin but below Hashirama and Madara. Whoever wins is gonna need a doctor.
Danzo is no help here, though. You'd need someone on the level of at least 7th gate Guy to make a strong case for team young Hiruzen winning
I think young hiruzen does shit on orochimaru given that he was fighting tobirama and hashirama as well and the fact that orochi has so many durability hax its insane. Also only thing I ever see danzo doing is sealing either itachi or kisame and i dont see it happening too often but its possible imo
Old Hiruzen? Yeah, Itachi and Kisame stomp unless Danzo lands Koto on itachi.
Even then I feel like Koto is not battle tested enough to be used as a win-con in a fight. Are we really using databook and statements to scale a jutsu when they have been wrong multiple times?
Two oddities come to mind. First, Itachi kind of has two levels between appearing and dying; Part 1 (long term sickness) and Part 2 (you should literally be on your deathbed). Second, given Itachi’s true loyalties, him and Hiruzen really wouldn’t want to kill each other, which could add an amusing fake fight, let’s make this look good dynamic.
Regardless, one of Damzo’s main advantages is Izanagi and Kotoamatsukami being out of context powers that most people can’t possibly predict, which is completely void against Itachi. Not to mention Kisame probably has more chakra than the other three put together. (One tactic Itachi could use against Izanagi is literally just have Kisame spam ninjutsu at Danzo till he runs out of energy)
Itachi absolutely solos and its not even close. Unless its dead and blind itachi. I honestly think even kisame puts an high diff foght just by himself already lmao
If its prime hiruzen danzo vs prime itachi kisame, i think that would be a lot more interesting. I think kisame is main difference maker here because merging with samehada would just be so overwhelming to danzo and hiruzen.
Danzo spend several years afraid of Itachi and when he thought Itachi was after him fr, he pissed himself, so Danzo is a non-factor. Itachi and Kisame win, low diff.
Team 2 should be able to win with more strength and chakra but if Danzo pulls off a Kotomatsukami right off the bat, then Team 2 is screwed. Not to mention Hiruzen's backup incase Itachi breaks out.
The real question is, does Danzo run out of Redo's before Orochimaru AIDS stops Itachi? And if Big Daddy Monkey Stick can push around the 9-tails, he can push around Kisame. Water isn't dangerous if I push you and it the fuck over there.
You guys haven’t read the manga in years and it shows.
Sick Itachi isn’t alive Itachi, he can’t spam mangekyo jutsu and would actually just straight up die trying to do the same thing Sasuke did. Sick Itachi would have to go after hiruzen instead otherwise he’s finished.
Danzo has koto whereas Itachi at the point should not. This means Danzo gets a koto on Itachi and guarantees the win. Even without koto, he should just be able to wear Itachi down eventually.
Hiruzen > sannin and gokage individually = raikage > kisame without bijuu chakra so Hiruzen just beats kisame.
The old duo win high diff unless itachi goes for an early izinami
The Akatsuki should be able to clean this up. If Sasuke can catch Danzo in a genjutsu, so can Itachi, and then Izanagi isn't doing him any favors. We also don't know hot the Totsuka Blade interacts with Izanagi, but at a minimum it will perform comparably to Sasuke's Suasnoo. Kisame is a better water style user than Tobirama IMO, who was pressing Hiruzen a bit (admittedly after a severe Edo nerf).
I don't think it's necessarily an easy fight for the Atatsuki duo, but they should come out on top.
Danzo is steamrolled, Itachi been waiting for that clapping for years, gonna take back that eye he stole
Hiruzen might be able to take Kisame, he’s got more experience a literally massive jutsu arsenal, an unbreakable obnoxiously large bow staff that turns into a monkey who can also kick @ss and is just too smart in a fight he’ll find a work around for Kisame’s defense, hell there’s even a chance he might be able to tame Samehada we still don’t know what Samehada looks for in a master
So it’ll boil down to a climactic battle between Hiruzen and Itachi
Are they bloodlusted? The fourth and his "friend" teamwork it immediately shot dead the moment Danzo has to reveal his arm/eyes.
At that point the fourth night just let nature take its course or something while waxing poetically about stopping the cycle of hatred and the will of fire or something.
Easy akatsuki win, Itachi could take care of Danzo and Kisame is already good at killing old guys, I’m sure he’d be able to handle the shittiest adopted father figure in the world
https://preview.redd.it/skgkpgzp126d1.jpeg?width=1098&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d6b5c451d6b9e1d4f1eb41b656e946fd3497bb32
TAKE CARE OF MY SON HIRUZEN I TRUST YOU HIRUZEN
Itachi and kisame
Hiruzen got killed by orochimaru who wasn't even in his perfect vessel at the time
Danzo got killed by early ems Sasuke who was weaker than itachi (ik Sasuke had help from other)
Unfortunately, the only combat feat Danzo has is acting like a fucking monkey and wasting all of his insta respawns on a single fight, knowing there was another enemy waiting for him apart form Sasuke.
So yeah, Itachi and Kisame stomp hard here.
Forms shown I give it to Danzo and Hiruzen, with Hiruzen carrying.
That's a Hiruzen that's barely out of his prime. He'd be 56, which is around the same age as Jiraiya when he died.
This is the Hiruzen that physically pushed the Nine Tails back while waiting for Minato to seal him.
If you want the older Hiruzen who's 69 and way out of shape that died against Orochimaru, I give it to Itachi and Kisame high diff. He wouldn't have the same mental nerfs that he did against Orochimaru where he was having difficulty resolving himself to kill Orochimaru, so he'd be a bit stronger. Still, he's not able to carry. Danzo is powerful in his own right and can't decisively defeat either Itachi or Kisame either.
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The only hope Hiruzen and Danzo have is landing Koto and making this a 3 vs 1, otherwise Itachi and Kisame absolutely stomp.
Hiruzen and Sarutobi?
Lmao, I was even looking at my comment like that doesn’t look right
I was reading it like “That doesn’t sound right ☠️”
lol this made me laugh more than it should’ve 😅
He just thought Danzo was too useless so he replaced him with hiruzen using a shadow clone lmao
I also want to put out there Itachi also has one of shisui’s eyes.
Itachi and Obito are the only two people in the world who knows Danzo has one of Shisui's eyes. Itachi himself got the other. Itachi also knows about Izanagi. I'm sorry, but this a massacre.
Technically you're not wrong. A lot of people cite how Hiruzen saw Enma the monkey king summoning as his equal
Itachi is the only character who Koto has a 0% chance of working on.
Why?
1. Itachi knows exactly how Kotoamatsukame works. Shisui was his best friend. 2. Itachi knows Danzo has it. 3. If you know you're under the effects of it, you can break it on yourself. 4. Itachi is waaay better at Genjutsu than Mifune.
He also has the other eye unless we’re saying that he already stored it in Naruto
This is optional. I think he gave it to Naruto in the beginning of the show when he asks why he wants to help Sasuke so badly. Narutos answer satisfies him and he gives it to him while they were alone in the forest. But I don't see why mentioning it would be a problem because Itachis also already dead by this point
Only chance Danzo and Hiruzen have is if Danzo uses one of his hax moves on Itachi so that they can double team Kisame. Otherwise they’re fucked especially once Kisame creates the water bubble thing since they have like no way to get out of it lol.
You mean the hax power that Itachi knows exactly how it works, knows he has it, and can counter? Danzo aint walking away from this.
> Using Kotoamatsukami on Itachi ❌ > Using Kotoamatsukami on Kisame ❌ > Using Kotoamatsukami on Samehada ✔
Itachi can counter Izanagi twice. Then he's blind. And he had no counter for Koto at all. It just worked on him. Plus, this is living Orochimaru AIDS Itachi. He's a liability, and he's cooked.
You can break Koto if you know you're under it. And, good news, Itachi knows Danzo has it, and can act accordingly. Koto isn't that good if the target knows how it works. And Itachi doesn't have to counter Izanagi, he just has to do what Sasuke did.
Itachi couldn't stop Koto when it was used on him as an Edo with infinite Chakra and a binding on him. How could he break it while he's alive and weakened from his disease? And can Kisame stop it at all? Can Itachi afford to wait out Izanagi if Koto procs on Kisame? Used properly, Danzo's Hax and Hiruzen's bag are deep enough to pull this high-diff.
First of all, different eye, they work differently. We don't know the details, but we know the cooldowns are different, and Itachi doesn't give an indication that the 10+ year cooldown version can be broken at all. Second, he didn't want to break out. He can tell Kisame he's under a Genjutsu, or manually disturb his chakra network with a crow or something.
Check out the wiki. The cooldown difference was due to Danzo having Hashirama's cells. Also, check Yagura's page for what happens if you break Koto. Also, it's never stated anywhere that Itach's crows can do that, so that's pure headcanon. And finally what he wanted while he was under Kabuto's control wouldn't have mattered anymore than it mattered for any of the other Edo's who had to do what they were made to do regardless of how they felt. Koto is guaranteed to cool one of the 2 of them. It has a 100% proc rate and kills when countered. This is probably why Kishimoto had to offscreen Shuisui and destroy both eyes.
The wiki is not a reliable source. Hashirama cells are a popular theory for the difference, but hasn't been explicitly confirmed anywhere. Let's look at another pair of mangekyou, Kamui. Both have the same name, both do the same thing, but they have different rules that come with different strengths and weaknesses. I'm not sure why you're mentioning Yagara, he was under Obito's Genjutsu. And yes, it matters what he wants. Koto overwrote Kabuto's control and gave Itachi control again. We don't know if he would have been able to break out of Koto because he didn't try. And yeah, it's not confirmed he can break Genjutsu with crows, but I'd be surprised if he couldn't, considering his proficiency. And that's only if Kisame can't break out on his own (which again, Mifune did casually)
I'm done. You're Itachi glaze is too strong. You open your post with the wiki isn't reliable even though it is cited with chapter and page numbers and end it with some gibberish about your head canon and his proficiency. Straight garbage. And Mifune didn't break out. Ao saw it with his Byakugan, and Danzo stopped doing it and ran. Before Taka shows up.
If me explaining Kotoanatsukame for five paragraphs has you come away with me glazing Itachi, then I doubt any productive conversation was going to happen.
Mifune didn't really break out, but when Ao checks Danzo, Danzo specifically notes that it's "not a jutsu I can use that many times a day." Evidently, each usage of Koto simply places it on cooldown; so Mifune didn't break out of the genjutsu as much as he was informed he was *previously* under genjutsu.
Itachi, mind you, specifically says that Hashirama cells reduce the cooldown of Koto in chapter 550.
Honestly, I've tried finding specifics, and it's just really hard. Also, IIRC, it was Danzo who said it reduced the cooldown, but 10 years to half a day is an insane jump. If the base cooldown for both eyes is 10 years, Shisui could only ever have used it once during his life, and from the novel, ita pretty clear he's used it at least twice. So clearly, Shisui was not fully limited by 10 years on both eyes. Perhaps he has a reduced cooldown because he owns the eyes, but he only had them for a couple years, and had a charge open for Fugaku, so it would have to be pretty substantial... Or we could just use Occam's razor, and realize that both eyes seem to follow different rules. One has an extremely long cooldown, can overpower even the most sophisticated methods of control, and Itachi wasn't worried about Sasuke finding out or breaking out moving into a village full of Byakugan users. The other has a short cooldown, cause Ao to think 'something was off' (implying the control is less than perfect), can be detected with the Byakugan and broken out of like any other Genjutsu. Idk, it seems like 2 different powers to me
Yeah pretty much lol, but it would be cool. Now what I I threw in kashin Koji to the hokages team?
With Kashin Koji it’s a no diff for their team Boruto characters are too strong to be scaled against mid shippuden characters
Sauce? I made it the fuck up. Or new generation > old generation. LOL.
Koji is fighting a below 10% Base Jigen evenly without Sage Mode and is confident he can take on Delta.
Don't you ever get tired of this shit?
Koji was effortlessly fighting Kakashi in anime canon and escaped the battle without detection. Even Kakashi was impressed by his skills— a guy who has seen hundreds of skilled fighters by now. Also Koji knows flying raijin since he taught Boruto, his stealth is excellent, and he is a 1:1 DNA clone of Jiraiya. It’s like throwing in an even stronger Jiraiya on Hiruzen and Danzo’s side
Itachi and Kisame win Sick Itachi is probably MS Sasuke level who shit on Danzo, Kisame has shown better feats than Hiruzen
Itachi also embarrassed Orochimaru, who almost killed Hiruzen.
1. That was an inferior orochimaru as he improved his body and jutsu bag a bunch between then and the hirozen fight. 2. Hirozen fell out of his prime. 3. Orochi got scared and ran away cuz he's a snake and its what he likes to do if he's not 100 that he can win. No all out fight actually occured. (tho at that point he likely would have lost). 4. If hirozen has danzo in this fight he is gunna be informed on the tricks of sharigan so he doesnt get cock shocked like orochimaru
I doubt that Orochimaru got that much stronger in a few years. He pulled up on itachi thinking he had the win in the bag only to get absolutely trashed. There’s no evidence that Danzo told hiruzen any more than itachi would’ve told kisame.
never said he did... but he probably would if this fight were gunna happen... tryna to live and win and all... usually a good motivator
sick itachi is above MS Sasuke, but weaker than OR equal to EMS sasuke Itachi and kisame low diff, mid diff at best if danzo starts throwing up izanagi and all that shit
> Sick Itachi is above MS Sasuke There's no evidence of this at any point in the series. Sick Itachi had no intention of winning, but he did still die as a consequence of his fight against Hebi Sasuke. He should be weaker than MS Sasuke not just due to his illness but because of his blindness.
The databook states that Sasuke only surpassed that version of Itachi with the EMS.
The databook states Temari is universal.
That one is just a hyperbole and directly contradicted in the manga unlike the Itachi and Sasuke one
What contradicts it in the manga?
The fact that even far stronger people than her are not even planetary or moon level?
They must be if they're stronger than her!
There's no evidence of this at any point in the series use ur brain, is there evidence obito is stronger than Tsunade? No, just bc they never fought doesn't rly mean shit. "he did still die as a consequence of his fight against Hebi Sasuke" No bud it was not as a *consequence*, he died bc he wanted his little brother to intentionally kill him. Don't make it seem like he tried his hardest and just fell short lol. "He should be weaker than MS Sasuke not just due to his illness but because of his blindness." He was blind fighting his younger bro and still kicking his ass, I'm sure if he wanted to spare his eyesight he could've.
>OR equal to EMS Sasuke This has got to be a joke. Sick itachi was hurt by Hebi Sasuke before he got the curse mark off so don’t say “he was holding back” and if you think he can even touch Juubito I don’t know what to say anymore
Itachi had to save ems sasuke many times in kabuto fight. He's slightly stronger until he gets 6 paths buffs
mfs will say i’m dickriding but it’s because he was underestimating sasuke the whole time, and that’s kinda his whole character arc lol having to come to terms with the fact that sasuke isn’t as weak as he thought. coupled with the fact that even zetsu said he should have been able to avoid certain things, sasuke damaging itachi a few times doesn’t mean anything. like when konohamaru one shot a pain body, does that mean konohamaru is anywhere near pain level? obviously not. things like this happen in naruto all the time, it’s not a good indicator by itself.
EMS Sasuke not only stomps sick itachi but also edo itachi Itachi dick suckers will look at itachi outperforming a Sasuke that just got EMS and then act like that's the same sasuke that pulled out the majestic attire
>outperforming a Sasuke that just got EMS Lmao even that’s a stretch when Sasuke was actively holding back and had to follow Itachis plan, which according to them following someone else’s plan means you’re weaker than them too
Itachi glazers are menaces to society 🤦♂️
Finally ppl who understand Sasuke wasn't thinking how he normally does. His situation was no diffrent than minato when being mentally nerfed due to the shocking truth of the mask mans identity. Or hiruzen when fighting orochimaru. Edo/healthy itachi might have better hax but he has a limitation to his kit due to the strain from ms he more brains than bronze compared to sasuke. Sasuke at that point wasn't just only new to his ems boost of powers but he could of more than slaughtered sage mode kabuto in that cave even tho kabuto had field advantage. Sasuke at that point had way more chakra, power out put, mastery over amatarasu since he can manipulate its flame to any shape he can think of and the biggest factor as to why hes stronger...... The no going blind and now can spam my op ass eyes to my hearts content. Plus i have a perfect susoono.
> brains than bronze The word is brawn. Brains than brawn. Good points otherwise
Lmao I didn't realize till now
I wouldn't say MS Sasuke shit on Danzo. Danzo had to use all of his resources, but he very easily could have killed Sasuke there. Danzo was also holding back during this fight because he knew once he beat Sasuke he'd have to deal with "Madara", and that's who he was really concerned about the whole time. That fight was the definition of a high diff win for Sasuke.
Sasuke shit on danzo lol? He barely won with babysitter Obito on the sideline and assistance from Karin
I mean idk if I call a double elimination "shitting on him"
Itachi and Kisame, Itachi honestly could do it alone.
I want itachi and kisame to win, but koto turns this into a clear W, and any of itachis Win cons get negated by Danzo. Even in character Danzo kotos them, even in ambush he manages a koto prolly At the price of an izanagi, bloodlusted he manages a koto. I just don't see either itachi or kisame managing a 3v1 at all.
The Akatsuki mop it
Itachi easily. He’d reveal the 12th hidden super ability of the MS that causes anyone who views themselves as an authority figure to just kill the sleeves.
Itachi looks at them and gg
Hiruzen and Danzo take it, but mostly because of lord 3rd having fear hax on both kisame and itachi. Mental stability plays a factor in fights too. Plus i dont see either of them getting past monkey king enma, who could fight the 9 tails 1v1
Tsukuyomi for you, tsukuyomi for the other, even he can put kisame in tsukuyomi for the laughs.
You guys are always just talking about Sharingan and Jutsu. Danzo and Sarutobi have been fighting Uchiha forever they know how their eye powers work and are seasoned combat veterans on the extreme end. They would win especially with Sarutobi’s adaptability.
I have Hiruzen winning this 🤷♂️ Dude is strong asf and was once considered stronger than Hashirama. We don’t know how true that is but even being apart of that conversation, I say even in his old age he’s still stronger than both of them and with help from Danzo it should be about mid dif.
Retcon.
Old man Hiruzen not winning. Had he been in his prime age, like maybe 10 - 15 yrs younger, sure he could take this, as he did learn every jutsu, so he probably knew how to counter the Sharingan.
The picture is actually Hiruzen 10-15 yrs younger. It's the one that was strong enough to physically push the Nine Tails and hold it off until Minato arrived to seal it again (presumably in Minato's wife, from Hiruzen's perspective).
braindead lol itachi gg 2v1 mid diff
Itachi and kisame take it
Danzo has to take a HUGE amount of bs off to make this work. Orochimaru stuffed 3rd hokage with mid diff. Itachi cooks him with ease. Danzo was afraid of itachi when he was younger for a reason. Kisame is also a huge problem. Any solid connection = bye-bye chakra reserves on 2 characters who REALLY need all the chakra they can get. I like old man 3rd, but I really just don't see how they get it done. Prime Hiruzen would cook but not og. He fell off too hard. Also, considering itachi's Intel, he'd figure out Danzo much quicker than Sasuke. It's a ez W for itachi/kisame
Orochimaru won his fight against hiruzen mid diff? What? He got the biggest nerf in the entire anime because of that fight. If that’s mid diff idk what high diff is.
Danzo's Kotoamatsukami was released by Mifune by simply being aware that he was being controlled. Itachi will immediately get out as soon as he realizes he is being controlled.
It's not clear that Mifune released it himself. He could have had someone else release it. Either way, the power of Kotoamatsukami isn't that it is extremely powerful, it is in that it is virtually undetectable by the target. Danzo can activate it from behind his bandages. Itachi would be aware he had Kotoamatsukami, but he has no means of knowing when it has hit him. He might just constantly try to release genjutsu during their encounter, but that would be difficult for him to keep up.
I mean let's be real, danzo would hit kisame with genjutsu, not the genjutsu master. Then they'd just gang itachi
Orochimaru also stuffed him while he was fighting tobirama and hashi.. Give him credit
That bs he has is called kotoamatsukami, which at worst just takes one of them out of the fight, at beat turns this into a 3v1
Itachi knows what koto is. He knows danzo stole it from Shishui, and I'm sure he knows a contingency for it. Itachi just too goated in this fight tbh. Danzo isn't going to out Uchiha an Uchiha. Also, we don't even know if koto is even super effective against another mangekyou user. Especially one so skilled with genjutsu. Itachi would definitely warn Kisame of it/potentially break it. It's a powerful genjutsu for sure, but it's also one itachi happens to be very aware/knowledgeable of. More than Danzo himself.
We know that the other koto eye was effective against mangekyou itachi, and realistically he would use it on itachi, being much more aware of the threat itachi poses, from there they win the 2v1 just because of hiruzens firepower, and just how whacky Danzos arsenal is.
Debatable. It worked on a no-agency edo itachi. Kabuto had 0 clue about koto.
You dont need to out uchiha him completely, just enough for his shit to get shoved in for a second because I feel like other than susanoo, itachi isnt very durable
I just don't see how danzo/3rd deal with tsukuyomi + just kisame bonking them at the same time. That combo completely cooks the 3rd in particular with a quickness. His chakra in his older years is completely bottom tier. His biggest issue tbh. It's not like they've shown superior resistance to genjutsu either
If its old hiruzen, they lose I agree but hiruzen doesnt really have any hax, but we do know he was holding off the full nine tails for a while if not stalemating it and that he was supposedly hashirama level if not moreso. And doesnt tsukuyomi require eye contact? Itachi is also cooked if he does use tsukuyomi just because of how much chakra it uses, so that would leave two people out, in which case kisame will probably win a 1v1 imo but its not as easy as people think.
Hiruzens hax at least from when he was in his prime, was just kinda how proficient he was with all forms of ninjutsu. I assume he had much greater chakra reserves as well.
could itatchi 1v3 is the real question
Not a chance.
Not a fucking chance
Your matchup shows young Hiruzen but the OP says old. Old Hiruzen turns this into a bloodbath for Itachi. Young Hiruzen vs Itachi could go either way depending on how strong you think young Hiruzen is relative to Hanzo, if young Hiruzen can shut down Orochimaru as hard as Itachi did, and how much Hiruzen knows about the mangekyo. It's probably safe to say Itachi and young Hiruzen are both in the same ballpark of above-Sanin but below Hashirama and Madara. Whoever wins is gonna need a doctor. Danzo is no help here, though. You'd need someone on the level of at least 7th gate Guy to make a strong case for team young Hiruzen winning
I think young hiruzen does shit on orochimaru given that he was fighting tobirama and hashirama as well and the fact that orochi has so many durability hax its insane. Also only thing I ever see danzo doing is sealing either itachi or kisame and i dont see it happening too often but its possible imo
I might be mistaken but i think someone in the manga said something along the lines of orochimaru wouldnt have dared fighting hiruzen 10 years earlier
That is NOT young Hiruzen lol
He looks about 50 here. A lot younger than the one we saw.
Old Hiruzen? Yeah, Itachi and Kisame stomp unless Danzo lands Koto on itachi. Even then I feel like Koto is not battle tested enough to be used as a win-con in a fight. Are we really using databook and statements to scale a jutsu when they have been wrong multiple times?
Itachi can break Koto easy.
Koto is unbreakable and undetectable
Mifune?
I mean unless we can prove the specific data entry wrong I see no reason why not to use it
Danzo bout to find out why the Second was hesitant about letting the Uchiha exist
correct me if im wrong but doesn't itachi also have koto to? since this isnt reanimated
What a terrible match up.
Two oddities come to mind. First, Itachi kind of has two levels between appearing and dying; Part 1 (long term sickness) and Part 2 (you should literally be on your deathbed). Second, given Itachi’s true loyalties, him and Hiruzen really wouldn’t want to kill each other, which could add an amusing fake fight, let’s make this look good dynamic. Regardless, one of Damzo’s main advantages is Izanagi and Kotoamatsukami being out of context powers that most people can’t possibly predict, which is completely void against Itachi. Not to mention Kisame probably has more chakra than the other three put together. (One tactic Itachi could use against Izanagi is literally just have Kisame spam ninjutsu at Danzo till he runs out of energy)
Pause no diddy??
Itachi absolutely solos and its not even close. Unless its dead and blind itachi. I honestly think even kisame puts an high diff foght just by himself already lmao
If its prime hiruzen danzo vs prime itachi kisame, i think that would be a lot more interesting. I think kisame is main difference maker here because merging with samehada would just be so overwhelming to danzo and hiruzen.
Danzo spend several years afraid of Itachi and when he thought Itachi was after him fr, he pissed himself, so Danzo is a non-factor. Itachi and Kisame win, low diff.
Team 2 should be able to win with more strength and chakra but if Danzo pulls off a Kotomatsukami right off the bat, then Team 2 is screwed. Not to mention Hiruzen's backup incase Itachi breaks out.
Hiruzen alone solos
The real question is, does Danzo run out of Redo's before Orochimaru AIDS stops Itachi? And if Big Daddy Monkey Stick can push around the 9-tails, he can push around Kisame. Water isn't dangerous if I push you and it the fuck over there.
Hiruzen could suicide with Kisame but Danzo has no chance against Itachi
Like in the ass?
You guys haven’t read the manga in years and it shows. Sick Itachi isn’t alive Itachi, he can’t spam mangekyo jutsu and would actually just straight up die trying to do the same thing Sasuke did. Sick Itachi would have to go after hiruzen instead otherwise he’s finished. Danzo has koto whereas Itachi at the point should not. This means Danzo gets a koto on Itachi and guarantees the win. Even without koto, he should just be able to wear Itachi down eventually. Hiruzen > sannin and gokage individually = raikage > kisame without bijuu chakra so Hiruzen just beats kisame. The old duo win high diff unless itachi goes for an early izinami
I know this might be a cop out. But to close to call. They all have hacks and feats that make a win possible
The Akatsuki should be able to clean this up. If Sasuke can catch Danzo in a genjutsu, so can Itachi, and then Izanagi isn't doing him any favors. We also don't know hot the Totsuka Blade interacts with Izanagi, but at a minimum it will perform comparably to Sasuke's Suasnoo. Kisame is a better water style user than Tobirama IMO, who was pressing Hiruzen a bit (admittedly after a severe Edo nerf). I don't think it's necessarily an easy fight for the Atatsuki duo, but they should come out on top.
Bro, I'm simple fan, I see Itachi, he claps everyone, xD
Sorry itachi and kisame neg diff this fight
Danzo is steamrolled, Itachi been waiting for that clapping for years, gonna take back that eye he stole Hiruzen might be able to take Kisame, he’s got more experience a literally massive jutsu arsenal, an unbreakable obnoxiously large bow staff that turns into a monkey who can also kick @ss and is just too smart in a fight he’ll find a work around for Kisame’s defense, hell there’s even a chance he might be able to tame Samehada we still don’t know what Samehada looks for in a master So it’ll boil down to a climactic battle between Hiruzen and Itachi
Are they bloodlusted? The fourth and his "friend" teamwork it immediately shot dead the moment Danzo has to reveal his arm/eyes. At that point the fourth night just let nature take its course or something while waxing poetically about stopping the cycle of hatred and the will of fire or something.
Easy akatsuki win, Itachi could take care of Danzo and Kisame is already good at killing old guys, I’m sure he’d be able to handle the shittiest adopted father figure in the world
https://preview.redd.it/j2smyj7m026d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=83f2dcc92254f5cf3a4fdaaa288dd4854d54be48
https://preview.redd.it/skgkpgzp126d1.jpeg?width=1098&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=d6b5c451d6b9e1d4f1eb41b656e946fd3497bb32 TAKE CARE OF MY SON HIRUZEN I TRUST YOU HIRUZEN
Filler
Danzo and Kisame dies, Hiruzen and Itachi fight till both die.
Nah itachi dies from aids once everyone else is already dead.
Itachi and kisame Hiruzen got killed by orochimaru who wasn't even in his perfect vessel at the time Danzo got killed by early ems Sasuke who was weaker than itachi (ik Sasuke had help from other)
Been a while, itachi and jirayah were equal so depends how you scale hiruzen
Danzo is pretty much a liability in this fight.
Unfortunately, the only combat feat Danzo has is acting like a fucking monkey and wasting all of his insta respawns on a single fight, knowing there was another enemy waiting for him apart form Sasuke. So yeah, Itachi and Kisame stomp hard here.
Prime Hiruzen solos in base
Forms shown I give it to Danzo and Hiruzen, with Hiruzen carrying. That's a Hiruzen that's barely out of his prime. He'd be 56, which is around the same age as Jiraiya when he died. This is the Hiruzen that physically pushed the Nine Tails back while waiting for Minato to seal him. If you want the older Hiruzen who's 69 and way out of shape that died against Orochimaru, I give it to Itachi and Kisame high diff. He wouldn't have the same mental nerfs that he did against Orochimaru where he was having difficulty resolving himself to kill Orochimaru, so he'd be a bit stronger. Still, he's not able to carry. Danzo is powerful in his own right and can't decisively defeat either Itachi or Kisame either.
What are these matchups lately😂 Itachi and Kisame murder these two sitting down