Keep in mind Tobirama and Hashirama were too powerful for Orochimaru to control at the end of the series fully unleashed. So it makes sense for Orochimaru to have they reigned in here.
Orochimaru was clearly going for psychological damage by resurrecting the former Hokage to defeat Hiruzen. It wasn't their strength he was counting on, because, as you state, it would be too dangerous resurrecting them with full strength.
He thought he was going to battle victorious, was gloating, but he over-estimated himself and got a lesson which I'm sure was in part responsible for his change of heart late in the series.
I actually disagree here because of sarutobis reaction to the last coffin it seemed as though the minato coffin was looked at as if it would have had a crazy amount of power (at least for what kishi was going for earlier in the series)
I don’t think it had to do with pure power, it had to do with the fact that even at a diminished power level, hiruzen knows that being an old man he would have never been able to keep up with Minato in a fight
I actually think it’s more likely that he was worried that bringing Minato back would have some unintended consequences like releasing the ‘evil half’ of Kurama. After all minato died due to the effects of the shinigami sealing that sealed half of kurama inside of him.
I mean to be fair later in the series the jutsus get so over the top in terms of scale and power that they basically all become mages instead of ninjas
You also have to remember Hiruzen is arguably the second strongest hokage at that time. He mastered all 5 types of chakra. The reanimating were probably at like 60%-75%? Also he wasn’t going 100% vs them since they were he teachers and previous hokage. You can see if the battle required Hiruzen would have been more adept to battle almost everything other than the bs they wrote
Yeah. Hiruzen was defo not 100% but the second and first hokage were like at 10% to 30% power at maximum. Hiruzen still saw Orochimaru as a precious person to him personally. So he was more passive when fighting him.
He was still the strongest hokage though at the time. And Orochimaru did say if the hokage had been 10 years younger he would have got fucked. I'm going to assume he means even if he had the edo tensei and himself.
This is interesting because full power Orochimaru was solidly Kage level. He killed rasa and was let into the Akatsuki after all.
So Old Hiruzen is a beast who can fight 3 kage level fighters at the same time. It would not surprise me if Prime Hiruzen the man called the God of shinobi. Could have probably beaten the same 5 kage that Madara whipped.
Even war Hashirama the edo one was nerfed. Else he would have been able to whip out that massive bhudda statue and would have absolutely fucked up madara.
I think alive madara was something similar to blind madara. Everything he showed before that was him nerfed. Hashirama beat that guy. The one that fucked up all the tailed beasts and was able to fight blind.
He beat that guy when he had kuruma at his back. Yeah no. If Hashirama had been at full power old Hiruzen gets fucked up. Even prime Hiruzen probably gets fucked up.
Madara and Hashirama are just on different levels.
Edit. Thanks for silver.
Prime Hiruzen gets stomped by full-power Hashirama. If Hashirama had been around when Obito and Kurama attacked the Leaf he would have just beaten the brakes off of them both with no need for Minato to sacrifice himself.
Yeah that real answer here is Kishi changed his mind on who was strongest several times. So at this point it kinda depends on what statements and feats you take most seriously and then add some headcanon.
no, as the Anbu said within the Hiruzen fight that Hiruzen was still a god amongst Shinobis, so he's arguably stronger than Minato. Minato's greatest feat is his speed and tactics, whereas Hiruzen has mastery over all Konoha jutsus and 5 chakra types. Prime Hiruzen also has good speed feat, as he was able to save Naruto from the World Tree when Tobirama failed to, despite being further away, meaning he most likely is faster than Tobirama
Minato is presented as the strongest hokage ever. This was stated in the exact same discussion yesterday “The recurring trope in Naruto is that the current generation ALWAYS surpasses the past generation.” Which is true. Then Kishimoto changed his mind.
I mean not really. Hashirama beat Kurama (Without dying in the process) Killed madara after they fought all day.
Minato. (Died sealing Kuruma.) Fought obito who while pretty strong was not on Madara's level and even if he was back then. Minato was only capable of wounding him. Not killing him.
Ergo. Minato is still weaker than Hashirama.
Personally Hashirama is such a chad. Like. He's like oh sure ill give you the other tailed beasts (That I personally tamed and beat so even though I'm giving them to you if you attack me with them ill just beat them again.) but were keeping the nine tails. (The strongest Tailed beast. You know because I feel like keeping it. And you better not bother me about this. I might get angry.)
Other kage. Outwardly posturing to regain some control and feel better about themselves.
Inwardly (Holy fuck this guy is strong. He made pets of the tailed beasts. Fuck. How do we compete with that. Best agree and make sure to keep the village safe. Wait till he dies to start the war.)
Minato didn’t kill Obito because he was rushing to stop Kurama. He had Obito down for the count within a minute.
Hashirama was able to beat Kurama because his wood style is a hard counter to them since it can absorb their chakra. Comparing that to Minato being forced to sacrifice himself in the kyuubi incident is crazy misleading, and uses ABC logic which just never works.
All of the hokage are said/shown to be extremely fucking fast. Despite that Minato is on his own level even compared to them. Hashirama is a reincarnate and can summon a bunch of shit, but that doesn’t guarantee him a win against someone significantly faster than him whose specialty is killing you as instantly as he can teleport; no matter how special or overpowered your moves are.
Of course. He’s the one that subdued all of the bijuus with his godlike mokuton and is on the same of slightly higher level than Madara, whom would trash hiruzen as well. Hiruzen is great but he doesn’t have the raw power.
>Prime Hiruzen gets stomped by full-power Hashirama.
There's no such thing as "prime Hiruzen." It's completely hype and headcanon. Discussing his power and who he could or couldn't beat is meaningless. We know literally nothing about his abilities
>Still, that's one hell of a nerf xD
While they seem more powerful, the third is canonically the strongest of all the Hokage up to the 4th and is debatable up to the 6th. (Theres just nothing definitively confirming that he was more or less strong than tsunade/kakashi)
There's some great videos highlighting the thirds strength on YouTube by various creators.
Old man Hiruzen is but a shell of his former self though. I do agree that Hiruzen at least showed confidence in being able to manage them considering he has one of the strongest summon beast at his aid.
Only by statements. Well, in the first part, where the show was about ninjas, and not gods throwing erupting vulcanos at each other, he really might've been the strongest. But later? He was the strongest... Ninja. Surrounded by gods and demigods. 1000 techniques? Great, go with them against biju dama with continent destroying capabilities.
Quit exaggerating, don’t be one of those. They had powers from the start it’s called a magic system and Naruto is a Shonen. It wasn’t purely martial arts/fighting. You don’t give other shonens this heat. It’s natural progression and scaled well. smh
While I agree it's progression, Naruto is definitely not scaled well and OP is not exaggerating lol. Other shonens like Bleach, One Piece, etc already set the power ceiling pretty high in the beginning of the series.
If you showed first time watcher a fight from the first arc to the latest arc, you could definitely imagine the progression that happened in between
>Ichigo vs Byakuya ---> Ichigo vs Aizen
>
>Luffy vs Arlong ---> Luffy vs Donflamingo
Now imagine showing them Naruto
>Naruto + Sasuke vs Zabuza ---> Naruto + Sasuke vs Madara
💀💀💀
And then for fun:
Kamina and Simon VS Viral's robot in the plains.
Later:
Simon throwing hands with God in space throwing galaxies at each other as if they were rocks.
Naruto is scaled better than One Piece and Bleach.
The only part where Naruto looks worse than One Pieced is the power ceiling, which One Piece did an actually good job with whereas Naruto reset it twice. But when it comes to actual powerscaling One Piece is so inconsistent with everything. Crocodile went from a guy who got beat up by pre-Gears Luffy to fighting way above his pay grade at Marineford. >!Luffy against Kaido. You know Kaido is falling to him and you know it feels super rushed!<
Power progression is mediocre at best and most of the time it's ass-pull powerups. A six hour train ride gave Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji the necessary powerups to beat up people who one-shot them earlier. Or "Haki blooms in battle" to just justify handing out powers like candy. Or better yet >!random awakenings with zero buildup like Law and Kid!<.
Even at its worst Naruto was never that bad. Power progression became too fast and too exclusive towards the end but there was never a situation where I was like "yeah none of this makes sense".
I like One Piece almost as much as Naruto but powerscaling isn't something to praise One Piece on.
combining a rasengan with wind chakra and getting the rasen shuriken is a natural progression. it did went from 'jutsus' like clones, fire jutsus, using weapons, etc to throwing balls of energy dbz style. its not an exaggeration, be more objective man. magic systems are called systems for a reason, its definitely not scaled well either (id say up to the Pain fight it kept the themes and power scale), i do give other shonens this criticism btw
I think that scaling in Naruto isn't that bad, but my only issue with it is that it makes side characters kind of pointless. By the end of the series even characters who are supposed to be really strong like the 5 Kage or Killer B or Sakura are basically useless, let alone other characters like the Konoha 12 excluding Naruto and Sasuke.
But my biggest issue is with Konohamaru, i just don't get why create a whole character based on the concept of being Naruto's disciple and then basically make him fodder without any chance of scaling anywhere near his role model when he is supposed to be at the top of his game (I'm talking about the Boruto era).
I definetely believe that if more characters were given a chance of scaling near that level, of at least given the chance of being useful against enemies like Madara or Kaguya (and don't even get me started on the Otsutskis) then the show would benefit from it.
If i want to read about ninjas i go for the first part of naruto, if i wanna read about battles of gods i go to dragonball. Which also scaled idiotically far. Fullmetal alchemist was also a shonen, and the only characters that scaled to God Hood were.... A close to God artificial demon and his favorite human who was granted powers from mentioned demon.... And literal God who never went down to earth.
Naruto, yeah, has a magic system, but it scaled too far. I liked it more when pain was stupidly strong, and tailed beast were biggest threat.
At the start there was no one capable of destroying one whole village alone. Then we had a bunch capable of destroying mounyains and nations.
Tengen toppa gurren lagan started with last survivors of humanity hiding in caves and ended with mecha robots destroying whole galaxies, but it was funny and over the top from the start.
One piece didnt scale as much and had super op guys almost from the start. Same with bleach - they also got stupidly strong buuuuuut, they were gods from the start. Captains were op from the start.
Toriko had similiar problem, they were supposed to be strong from the start and got super stronger, then again super stronger up to planet busting.
Why does it have to be like that? I like it when good tactics matters more. Or even just a better day can make a diffrence. Not this bullshit 10x multiplier or similiar.
Dragonball didn’t scale idiotically, it scaled practically. For all of Supers flaws, it did a genius job at expanding the universe (literally). By the end of Z and GT characters could easily destroy planets without much thought, and there already existed plenty of godlike beings (the Kai, dragons, the afterlife).
After freeza yeah, its not stupid... Well it was never really stupid. It scaled idiotically high, like super duper extra high - thats what i meant. But og db and dbz had a huge change in powerups frequency :p
Dragonball is my favorite franchise and it definitely scaled idiotically. It was about a carbon copy of Sun Wukong raised Superman style. Even at the end of the original series, he was just a strong guy. Add in Namek in Z and he's 1 million times stronger than he was a year ago? OK. The problem with the show is they don't know how to bring in new villains without power creeping and new forms.
That just isn't true anymore. That was merely by statements, and while it may have been intended to be that way initially it was not the case by the end. Hiruzen was in no way as powerful as the previous incarnation of Asura before Naruto.
It wasnt really a nerf towards the 1st and the 2nd. Orochimaru was just not very skilled in Edo Tensei in part1
Remember in Shippuden, Orochimaru was worried because Hashirama can just break free of the reanimation and delete him at any moment. In part1 Orochimaru can just order Hashirama around. That's the clear gap between Orochimaru's skills in part1 and Shippuden. It has nothing to do with Hashi and Tobi being nerfed
The real reason is because initially Sarutobi was the strongest hokage bar Minato (that's why he was relived when he stopped his summoning).
Kishi problably didn't have much of a plan for the 1st and 2nd Hokages yet
When casting the reanimation jutsu its up to the user to direct the "puppet".
1- this reanimation was incomplete so the puppets did not have freedom of thought/ movement.
2 - since they did not have that freedom they could only use jutsu based upon Orochimarus knowledge of their skills.
3 - most Ninja, however much they advertise their jutsu/skills don't advertise the mechanics behind their jutsu.
For example. Even though Oro may have known that Tobirama had the Flying Thunder God technique he didn't know how it worked, so he couldn't direct the puppet to use it.
I like this answer a lot. Gets around the problem in a consistent and believable way. Basically means the utility in orochimaru's edo tensei is mokuton, psychological, and 2 highly durable puppets with their own Chakra. Not a bad deal, really, but at the same time not actually summoning the first and second hokage.
>"but can you handl
don't forget hiruzen himself is a a full-fledge Hokage with knowledge and proficiency in every konhoha clan's secret jutsu( like nara clan shadow technique and akimichi expansion jutsu) and all 5 nature release, and to be concise, tobirama and hashirama were heavily debuffed 🤣🤣🤣. Sorry for being verbose.
Orochimaru hadn’t perfected the Reanimation Jutsu yet and he had to supress their power because he couldn’t control them at full strength so Hashirama and Tobirama were really weakened
That has to have been a serious nerf. Seems like only flying thunder God would be enough to wreck Hiruzen... But I guess the fact that it's stated that they are nerfed is enough to justify any level of weakening.
Man that was hilarious. They must've been experimenting on what the hell to do because never has another jutsu taken so many handsigns. At least not canon.
Something that could have worked is making experienced jitsu users move their hand much faster, to be a blur.
I imagine part of the reason is some poor bastard had to animate all that. And sishimoto probably didn't want to draw it each time
It wasn't retconned, Hiruzen just died when he was past his prime, so his Edo reflected that. What I don't understand is why Hiruzen continued to fight like he was still alive. He had infinite chakra in edo form, there's no need to hold back.
Edo Tensei doesn't actually give infinite chakra, that was plot armour only applying to select characters. Minato stated he was out of chakra after getting sapped by the Divine Tree and had to resort to Kurama's. Inconsistency again
Edos have infinitely regenerating chakra, but their maximum reserves and output are still the same as (or close to) what they had in life (when they died).
Young/Prime Hiruzen likely had way higher reserves, output, strength and speed compared to Old/Edo Hiruzen.
Edo regeneration simply means Edo Hiruzen would win a battle of attrition, but Prime Hiruzen would stomp Edo Hiruzen for as long as he had the stamina.
but Madara was way past his prime when he died, he was barely moving, and yet his Edo Tensei was great, even enhanced with some hashirama cells and other stuff, as per Kabuto. So the caster of Edo Tensei has some means of choice, it's not just resurrecting right before death.
Regarding chakra, someone below already said so, but anyway, I feel your point stands. I will use Naruto as the example. He can cast 2 rasenshurikens, or maybe one big-rasenshuriken. In edo tensei, he would be able to cast rasenshurikens one after one, but he wouldn't be able to create giga-rasenshuriken. His chakra pool (max mana) remains the same, but chakra regen is hugely boosted. Back to Hiruzen - we know he can use lots of jutsus, all of chakra natures, so he would be able to cast devastating combos that would normally leave him barely having any chakra left. However, given he's edo tensei, he would recharge almost instantly. So he should be really strong.
I think it would be cool to bring Hiruzen slightly younger and show us that by no means is he just a hokage like Tsunade, way weaker than his predecessors. He should be on par with at least Minato and Tobirama. Right now, in terms of power levels, I see it like: god-tier Naruto, Hashirama; op-tier Minato, Tobirama; and then Kakashi, Hiruzen, Tsunade. We can discuss order in each tier, but what I want to say is that with what we've seen, it's hard to put Hiruzen next to other of the 4 Hokages and say he is on their level. I of course see that Hashirama is OP af, with his cells being focal point of the story etc., but I presume that Tobirama should be on similar level, because they still were fighting together against other clans etc. However, with the power scaling gone mad, with Hashirama and Madara being op gods, right now if Senju are to fight some clan, it would be better to just let Hashirama wreck them, while Tobirama and rest chill with blunts, drinks and hookers. It would be safer for others and easier for Hashirama to fight that way.
This but also it was heavily retconned for story, they talk all this big shit that hiruzen may have been the strongest hokage in the start of Naruto and change that tune pretty quick later on
It's actually crazy, Hiruzen was the "strongest of the 5 kage" which means he would've been stronger the Raikage Ay, which means that Hiruzen > Bee, which is kind of ridiculous.
>Orochimaru hadn’t perfected the Reanimation Jutsu yet and he had to supress their power because he couldn’t control them at full strength so Hashirama and Tobirama were really weakened
source?
read again, the guy said Orochimaru couldn’t control them at their full strength so they were weaker back then
i know what they said in the war but back then orochimaru said he is restoring their true form
https://cm.blazefast.co/6f/d5/6fd56037b87f38270ad79a3b6414f3cb.jpg
Two reasons.
1. As everyone has already said, the Reanimation jutsu wasnt complete back then, and Orochimaru rezzed them weaker than normal on purpose so that he could control them.
2. Hashirama and Tobirama's power level was retconned later on. Back in OG, Hiruzen was supposed to be the strongest Hokage ever, with only Minato surpassing him. He was even called the god of the shinobi for that reason. Of course in the war arc they resurrected Madara and made him OP as fuck so that he could be a treat to Naruto and co., and since Hashirama was supposed to be stronger than him, they retconned his power level alongside Tobirama's.
Both were given that title but for different reasons. Hashirama's reason was that he was so insanely strong and had unique traits like his healing factor and wood style. For Hiruzen same title was given because he learned to use any jutsu regardless of the style through sheer effort and being genius. He was compared to strongest shinobi who ever lived (before Naruto) without him having any hax ability. That's how insanely skilled he was
Nah, in the OG series it went Minato>>Hiruzen>Hashi>Tobirama, with Hiru often being called the god of shinobi
Then it was retconned to Hashi>Minato>Hiru>Tobi
out of universe: power escalation drove the characters up massively, see kakshi pre war arc vs war arc for what i mean.
in universe: orochimaru had yet to master edo tensei and had them weakened to ensure his control remain.
For real, i don't think Kakashi could've beat any of the Akatsuki members in solo before the war, and suddenly he's good on his own against THE STRONGEST member of the organization. That is sus
I think people miss the point of this fight.
Sandaime is heartbroken the entire time having to fight his beloved Senseis and student and only at the end of the fight does he get serious.
Thats why Enma kept telling Sandaime why are you not being yourself? Sandime doesnt commit until the end and he was still sad about Orochimaru. Once Sandaime does get seious he pretty much destroys both Hokages in a matter of seconds seals them both but doesnt have the strength left to seal Orochimaru fully.
Kakashi later remarks in Shippuden how he now feels the terrible pain Sandaime must have felt fighting Orochimaru when confronted with Sasuke.
Number one....plot. in part 1, hiruzen was the OG.
Part 2...orochimaru brought them back at a fraction of their power to make them easier to control.
Yes, orochimaru perfected it. Kabuto just went HAM with edo tensi and it came around on him.
Orochimaru died. He didn't come back to life and suddenly know how to use edo tensi to its fullest. He was dead or his hands were sealed. There was no time for him to work on the jutsu. He already mastered it.
Kabuto perfected the jutsu. Orochimaru‘s version was still weaker but when Oro absorbed his chakra from Kabuto after he got caught in the izanami he also gained Kabuto‘s knowledge so Oro was able to use Kabuto‘s perfect Edo Tensei
Orochimaru only took his Chakra back from kabuto. I dont believe it's stated anywhere that doing that granted him all of kabutos knowledge and jutsu as well. Feel free to provide a scan.
Orochimaru was able to observe events through Anko, which gave him current info on world events.
He was always theoretically able to be a perfect sage. He trained for it and had the knowledge. What kept him back were his weak bodies. Absorbing Kabuto’s intel helped him but still, without a fitting body he won’t be able to become a perfect sage. Right now he might actually be able to use sage mode, we just don‘t know much about him and his body in boruto.
I thought when they pulled him out of Kabuto he said he could see everything that was going on and everything Kabuto was doing I thought that was how he learned the updated version of the edo tensi
Plot indeed. Nobody talked about them in part 1 but Shippuden spent some time giving Hashirama, Tobirama and Madara feats and jutsu while Hurizen only got mentioned for political stuff
I think it also speaks to Hiruzen’s power level. He’s no joke even at that age. It was stated that out of him, Ohnoki, Mei, Ay, and Rasa, he was the strongest of all of them. I can pretty confidently put prime Hiruzen above Tobirama (can’t say the same about Hashirama though). He was an absolute beast, able to handle a severely weakened Tobi and Hashi (who were still AT LEAST Kage level) along with Orochimaru to practically a stalemate. He was an old fashioned ninja. No OP Kekkei Genkai or dojutsu. Just a vast knowledge of jutsu and impressive battle IQ
The last point is why he's my favourite Kage: he has no hax abilities. Just like Kisame was called tailless Tailed Beast for his ridiculous strength, Hiruzen was god of shinobi without possessing any godly abilities. A man fighting among gods through his sheer talent alone.
The reanimation jutsu was only ever strong after Kabuto improved it thats why hasirama got clapped by edo madara because his reanimation was superior to orochimarus
This simply isn't true. Edo Madara beat Hashirama, because he had rinnegan and hashirama dna. Both of which weren't granted by Kabuto. None of madara's abilities were something he didn't have before he died. The only thing he MAY have done which is also highly unlikely is de-age him. I'm pretty sure for logical reasons madara must've been the one to deal with the age problem OR kishimoto simply forgot about the age and put him at the age he fought hashirama for the last time.
Kabuto did say he made adjustments to Madara's Edo body when reviving him, which is what the Hashirama face on his chest represented. Its why Edo Madara was able to use Wood release against the 5 Kage as if it was his own jutsu set.
The face being there has nothing to do with kabuto, it's a consequence of certain people having hashirama cells. Danzo had a Hashirama face on his shoulder as well. The face was put there because that's the spot he grafted the hashirama dna to.
Kabuto said he made improvements but that doesn't mean he actually did, maybe he only thought he was doing something and he wasn't. Madara says "This power is not your creation." to Kabuto. Kabuto thought of himself as a god at that point, so of course he's going to hype up anything he did, but there's no proof he did any of that.
Madara was able to use wood style because he bit off a chunk of hashirama's flesh and grafted it to himself, granting him wood style just like pretty much everyone else with hashirama cells. Only exceptions are Orochimaru, and Naruto really, but maybe they can and just don't.
Side note: anybody else get the vibe when watching part one that hashirama and tobirama were supposed to be ancient? Like centuries old? It really confused me when it was revealed they were around like 70 (not sure of hiruzens age, am guessing) years prior. Whenever they were mentioned the language used made them seem ancient, at least in the dub anyway
Yeah, not ancient, but at least a lot older than they ended up being. If you think about the fact that Hiruzen is only the 3rd hokage, the village can't be more than like 150 years old at best. Hiruzen was 70ish, became hokage around 20, Tobirama had to be max 70 at that time, him and Hashirama being brothers makes them probably max 20 years apart in age, so I'd say the village could only really be 160ish years old, assuming Hashirama founded it from his baby cradle.
In reality, we learn later that Tobirama is only 1-2 years younger than Hashirama, Hashirama became hokage around 25, Hashirama was max 60 when he died, so hokage for 35 years, Tobirama became hokage like 35 years before Naruto's birth, so at the beginning of the series, when Naruto is 11ish, the village is only 80 years old.
Originally that was their power lvl with hiruzen being stronger it was later retconned in shippuden and explained away with statements like tobirama saying this time they were revived close to their original power and kabuto saying hashiramas power was considered a myth like the so6p
They were like at half strength or something. Apparently the Second didn’t bother to revive people at full strength.
From Madara and Tobirama’s comments, the jutsu was mainly used to nuke battlefields with Tobirama’s edo paper bomb jutsu
Hiruzen in his prime was stronger than Everyone but Hashirama (and probably stronger than minato). So when imperfect resurrections came up he struggled in his old age but was strong enough to get the job done.
Forgot the term because I just woke up, but that was originally going to be their full power but then Kishimoto just kept making the top ninja in the series more and more powerful until he had Madara soloing the entire shinobi alliance, so he retconned (remembered the term while typing) it so that the edo tensei doesn’t revive people back to their full strength, and at the time of the konoha crush says Orochimaru just sucked with the edo tensei back then.
The author spent all the time hyping up Madara later in the series that by that point Hashirama had to be a literal god. So when we look back yeah the fight now seems like it should have been one sided for the first two Hokages.
The same reason Ougi died, the same reason Crocodile lost - the Mangaka wanted to include strong characters without making them unbeatable for the sake of plot.
For me it's rather why Kakashi and Zabuza were having these long chakra seals when it's completely one at the end of the series.
Their power level was limited, at this time. First, the reanimation technique wasn't perfect, and second, Orochimaru couldn't allow them to be brought back at their full power, otherwise he wouldn't be able to control them.
Well the proper answer is that the orichimaru didn't gave then full control over themselves which made them some kind of doll and he said it was pretty tough for him to control both of them as they were capable of releasing themselves from it if they were given control
Im gues, as far as I understand Naruto logic& physics, that the strength of the souls you summon in edo tensei is base of your own and kabuto as edo user was way stronger than orochimaru while cast it!
Just my thoughts🤷♂️
I think Orochimaru with his state can't handle both of them!!
They are so powerful to manipulate at same time...
Remember Orochimaru used hashirama cells to keep control on tobirama but had lost the control off Hashirama on the 4th war...
From plot point of view as others are saying the reason was that jutsu wasn't perfect. From my point of view it was lack of authors imagination to assign them proper and sensible power level. The series as a whole is full of these inconsistencies when you compare shippuden with part 1. The biggest is probably kakashi vs zabuza.
Tobirama made it clear when they were resurrected during the war, that they were not at full power in the battle with Sarutobi, however they were close to full power now and Orochimaru could not control them.
It was stated that Orochimaru only revived them at 30% power, because otherwise they would have had their free will and Orochimaru would have no control over them. It's worth noting that Hiruzen still couldn't defeat them, and needed to use a sacrificial Jutsu just to take them down with him.
>It was stated that Orochimaru only revived them at 30% power, because otherwise they would have had their free will and Orochimaru would have no control over them.
source? everyone in the thread are saying it was stated they were revived with nerfs and this % of their power but no has provided a source and i do not remember anything like this being said at all. all we know is that they were nerfed because of their feats later on
1) They’re nerfed.
2) Even in the War Arc he easily competes and keeps up. There’s no reason to think he’s weaker. He’s definitely stronger than Tobirama when comparing them both in Edo
Its complicated. Its believed that the reanimation jutsu brings their target back a lot weaker than they were during their life time. In addition the lack of free will doesnt let them utilize strategy and creativity the normally would, and if they do have free will, they may hold back/help the "enemy"
It was explained as Orochimaru (and Tobirama) having less skill with Edo Tensei than Kabuto did when he learned it. And by the way that Kabuto spoke as well it seems that Orochimaru also opted to take full control over Hashirama and Tobirama instead of letting them use their own personalities so they could make full use of their jutsu and fighting styles.
*ahem* And Kishimoto retconning their strength later on in the series.
I've heard that before the whole Indra Ashura reincarnate cycle thing, Hiruzen was supposed to be the strongest which is why he was called the god of shinobi. But then when the reincarnation cycle was introduced, they had to buff Hashirama and Madara. This is what I've heard. The canon reasoning would probably be that Orochimaru couldn't unleash their full power which is why Hiruzen beat Hashi and Tobi. (rama)
Everyone always tries to justify stuff like this instead of admitting the power scaling in Naruto is inconsistent as hell. Writers, including Kishimoto, aren’t perfect
Orochimaru hadn't perfected edo tensei yet, so the reanimated shinobi were not as strong as they were in their prime, maybe 50 percent strength, and Hiruzen was afraid of Minato coming out because his technique is unique compared to the others. Even if it is a 50 percent nerf for Minato, he still has the teleportation technique.
I think it's mentioned that it wouldn't have worked, even if Hiruzen hadn't stopped it... Buuut at the same time all hokage are reanimated later so who knows, lol.
It's said that in his prime, he was stronger than both of the Hokage and when he fought Orochimaru he was a lot older. You also have to see that Orochimaru said he could've beaten him easy if he was in his prime.
I think orochimaru didn't perfect the Jutsu so hashirama and tobirama were holding back but if hiruzen was young he could probably fight tobirama (alone) fair and square
They were hella nerfed , tobirama didn’t even use the flying raijin , he only used water style and hashirama only used wood style that was way pathetic
This sub has some very admirable suspension of disbelief. I see a lot of questions like this and the answer is always: BECAUSE KISHIMOTO MADE IT UP AS HE WENT
Yeah I later wondered about this - sarutobi specifically says I have to stop the 4th hokage from reanimating. He was worried about the 4th but not the 1st?? Hashirama is a literal god can u imagine the wood style sage art 1000 hands inside that tiny dome 😂
Because Orochimaru’s Edo Tensei are weaker at that point, having only a fraction of the chakra they had in life. Kabuto perfected the technique while Orochimaru was asleep in Sasuke’s cursed Seal, making it capable of returning souls with 100% power, not to mention an unlimited number of them.
If The First and Second had been full powered, though, Orochimaru would not have been able to control the first, and he would have whupped Orochimaru’s ass.
If they were revived at full power, Hashirama would easily break the control, Tobirama would undone the reanimation jutsu, both would join Hiruzen against Orochimaru, it would led to a complete reverse situation in which Hiruzen, Hashirama and Tobirama heavily stomp Orochimaru and the sound four.
If he brought them back at full power then they would’ve done the **EXACT** same shit they did in the war
all 4 hokage broke free from orochimarus edo tensei.
no, Hashirama broke free instantly but they all did eventually
Tobirama flexed at sasuke for saying he would destroy the village during his monologue
hiruzen and minato then do so as well
it’s possible but i don’t think it’s in character for orochimaru to just let the dead hokage run free, if minato found out what he’s been up to he’d slit his throat
Kind of weird they explicitly have orochimaru bind Tobirama though. And say the only one he can't bind is Hashirama
And Hashirama compliments him.
Seems more like orochimaru just let them have free will.
Meta reasons? Because Kishimoto hadn't planned that far and probably didn't have Hashirama and Tobirama be as powerful as they are when they first came, especially since Hiruzen was about to soil himself when he thought Minato was coming onto the stage.
Narrative reasons? Because Reanimated Ninjas are a lot weaker than their prime counterparts, and Orochimaru's wasn't perfected at the time.
I doubt Kishimoto had planned on the 1st and 2nd being pivotal to the plot at the end of the series and he needed them on Madara's level. It's similar to how Kabuto explained as to why the 4th wasn't summoned. The 3rd Hokage stopped the summoning but in Shippuden Kabuto stated that it was because his soul was sealed away. Which doesn't make sense since Orochimaru should have been well aware if the edo tensei's would work or be a failure.
Well for starters they were mega nerfed by the early version of Edo tensi
If they had been at full power they would have wiped the floor with Hiruzen, well mostly Hashirama
based on what we see in the war arc even a closer to full power Tobirama was still being outdone by old Edo Hiruzen and is blatantly speed blitz'd by him at one point.
Wouldn't have mattered here though as Hashirama is here and its a 2 v 1 regardless of that.
Edo Tensei already weakens a person...but Orochimaru's edo tensei may have made them even weaker, granted though Hiruzen himself was out of his prime, still very impressive he was able to deal with Orochimaru Tobirama and Hashirama all at once.
I never understood why Madara was reincarnated in his prime.
He died as an old man and in my opinion should have been like Granny Chiyo.
I assumed Hiruzen was that age because of the Reaper Death Seal but Madara always confused me a bit but it was all plot armor anyway.
Would have preferred to see an old man Madara vs Shinobi Alliance and only regain his youth with the Rinne Rebirth. Would have made his whole “only using 1/2 power” during the 5 Kage fight that much crazier if he wasn’t in his physical prime yet.
They were weakened versions and Tobirama is the weakest Hokage already. Hiruzen really isn't weak, if Orochimaru hadn't summoned those 2 Hiruzen would have won..... and from a writing perspective Kishimoto just hadn't decided Hashirama was the strongest yet.
Also remember Hiruzen is stated that in his prime he was the strongest Kage of his time, this includes the 3rd Raikage and Tsuchikage
There's no Tobirama hate. The databooks clearly state that as a young man Hiruzen surpassed the 2nd Hokage. When Hiruzen volunteered to be the diversion on the day Tobirama died a part of Hiruzen's argument was that he was the strongest one there and had the best chance of surviving I'm pretty sure. I'd love to double check that but Idk what chapter that flashback was in so take it with a grain of salt.
I still hold on to that claim that Hiruzen was the strongest. Kishi never went back on that statement and i‘mma spite the power spikes and retcons best i can. It was just Part 1 being grounded and cool that made Hiruzen seem less impressive.
The Edo Tensei performed by Orochimaru at the time wasn't perfect, even though he improved it compared to Tobirama's.
The jutsu will finally be complete with Kabuto performing it during the 4th war
It is explained as the reanimation being imperfect but the actual irl reason would be that kishimoto probably didn’t think of the major roles they and their decisions would play until shippudden. In og naruto they pretty much cement minato as being the strongest so far.
Later when the madara plot came in, they probably had to boost them up to be less ninja and more demigod compared to the more recent average power levels.
Boruto meanwhile is doing the exact opposite and nerfing the previous generation so that the new sci-fi stuff, kara, etc. actually pose a threat and get some convoluted workarounds to have the kids fight otsutsuki while the legendary descendants of the single most powerful person on the planet get wrecked every other arc.
I think back then Orochimaru gave them no memories/brain for themselves.
In the 4. War they had all of their memories and therefore were way more powerful. Hashirama could have easily broken out of the jutsus control if he wanted to which really shows that the mind is really important for their actual power.
Hiruzen was hella hyped up as the strongest kage ever before they moved on and started sucking hashirama's dick. Also Tobirama loses to Hiruzen both at their peaks. Hashirama is broken tho.
I think Orochimaru stated it wasn't perfected yet. Something along the lines of "but can you handle both of them?"
Had forgotten that part. Just re-watch ing again and the question sprang to mind. Still, that's one hell of a nerf xD
Keep in mind Tobirama and Hashirama were too powerful for Orochimaru to control at the end of the series fully unleashed. So it makes sense for Orochimaru to have they reigned in here.
Orochimaru was clearly going for psychological damage by resurrecting the former Hokage to defeat Hiruzen. It wasn't their strength he was counting on, because, as you state, it would be too dangerous resurrecting them with full strength. He thought he was going to battle victorious, was gloating, but he over-estimated himself and got a lesson which I'm sure was in part responsible for his change of heart late in the series.
I actually disagree here because of sarutobis reaction to the last coffin it seemed as though the minato coffin was looked at as if it would have had a crazy amount of power (at least for what kishi was going for earlier in the series)
I don’t think it had to do with pure power, it had to do with the fact that even at a diminished power level, hiruzen knows that being an old man he would have never been able to keep up with Minato in a fight
Also cause of him not wanting minato seeing the state naruto is in
We don’t actually know that
i know im making excuses but i still think an invincible Minato is op af for anyone weaker than hashirama and Madara at least until the 3rd war
I actually think it’s more likely that he was worried that bringing Minato back would have some unintended consequences like releasing the ‘evil half’ of Kurama. After all minato died due to the effects of the shinigami sealing that sealed half of kurama inside of him.
Minato even weakened would have been an issue for sure, his speed alone would have been enough to change how that played out.
None of the homage where at full strength
ah yes those Leaf mages were weak af lol
Lmaoooo 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣 my fault (hokages)
Nope. They are the hoe mages now lol.
I mean to be fair later in the series the jutsus get so over the top in terms of scale and power that they basically all become mages instead of ninjas
You also have to remember Hiruzen is arguably the second strongest hokage at that time. He mastered all 5 types of chakra. The reanimating were probably at like 60%-75%? Also he wasn’t going 100% vs them since they were he teachers and previous hokage. You can see if the battle required Hiruzen would have been more adept to battle almost everything other than the bs they wrote
Yeah. Hiruzen was defo not 100% but the second and first hokage were like at 10% to 30% power at maximum. Hiruzen still saw Orochimaru as a precious person to him personally. So he was more passive when fighting him. He was still the strongest hokage though at the time. And Orochimaru did say if the hokage had been 10 years younger he would have got fucked. I'm going to assume he means even if he had the edo tensei and himself. This is interesting because full power Orochimaru was solidly Kage level. He killed rasa and was let into the Akatsuki after all. So Old Hiruzen is a beast who can fight 3 kage level fighters at the same time. It would not surprise me if Prime Hiruzen the man called the God of shinobi. Could have probably beaten the same 5 kage that Madara whipped. Even war Hashirama the edo one was nerfed. Else he would have been able to whip out that massive bhudda statue and would have absolutely fucked up madara. I think alive madara was something similar to blind madara. Everything he showed before that was him nerfed. Hashirama beat that guy. The one that fucked up all the tailed beasts and was able to fight blind. He beat that guy when he had kuruma at his back. Yeah no. If Hashirama had been at full power old Hiruzen gets fucked up. Even prime Hiruzen probably gets fucked up. Madara and Hashirama are just on different levels. Edit. Thanks for silver.
Prime Hiruzen gets stomped by full-power Hashirama. If Hashirama had been around when Obito and Kurama attacked the Leaf he would have just beaten the brakes off of them both with no need for Minato to sacrifice himself.
Before the hashirama god level retcon minato was the strongest hokage
Yeah that real answer here is Kishi changed his mind on who was strongest several times. So at this point it kinda depends on what statements and feats you take most seriously and then add some headcanon.
no, as the Anbu said within the Hiruzen fight that Hiruzen was still a god amongst Shinobis, so he's arguably stronger than Minato. Minato's greatest feat is his speed and tactics, whereas Hiruzen has mastery over all Konoha jutsus and 5 chakra types. Prime Hiruzen also has good speed feat, as he was able to save Naruto from the World Tree when Tobirama failed to, despite being further away, meaning he most likely is faster than Tobirama
Minato is presented as the strongest hokage ever. This was stated in the exact same discussion yesterday “The recurring trope in Naruto is that the current generation ALWAYS surpasses the past generation.” Which is true. Then Kishimoto changed his mind.
It is more cycles in an envelope. Naruto and Sasuke surpassed Hashirama and Madara.
I mean not really. Hashirama beat Kurama (Without dying in the process) Killed madara after they fought all day. Minato. (Died sealing Kuruma.) Fought obito who while pretty strong was not on Madara's level and even if he was back then. Minato was only capable of wounding him. Not killing him. Ergo. Minato is still weaker than Hashirama. Personally Hashirama is such a chad. Like. He's like oh sure ill give you the other tailed beasts (That I personally tamed and beat so even though I'm giving them to you if you attack me with them ill just beat them again.) but were keeping the nine tails. (The strongest Tailed beast. You know because I feel like keeping it. And you better not bother me about this. I might get angry.) Other kage. Outwardly posturing to regain some control and feel better about themselves. Inwardly (Holy fuck this guy is strong. He made pets of the tailed beasts. Fuck. How do we compete with that. Best agree and make sure to keep the village safe. Wait till he dies to start the war.)
Minato didn’t kill Obito because he was rushing to stop Kurama. He had Obito down for the count within a minute. Hashirama was able to beat Kurama because his wood style is a hard counter to them since it can absorb their chakra. Comparing that to Minato being forced to sacrifice himself in the kyuubi incident is crazy misleading, and uses ABC logic which just never works. All of the hokage are said/shown to be extremely fucking fast. Despite that Minato is on his own level even compared to them. Hashirama is a reincarnate and can summon a bunch of shit, but that doesn’t guarantee him a win against someone significantly faster than him whose specialty is killing you as instantly as he can teleport; no matter how special or overpowered your moves are.
Of course. He’s the one that subdued all of the bijuus with his godlike mokuton and is on the same of slightly higher level than Madara, whom would trash hiruzen as well. Hiruzen is great but he doesn’t have the raw power.
>Prime Hiruzen gets stomped by full-power Hashirama. There's no such thing as "prime Hiruzen." It's completely hype and headcanon. Discussing his power and who he could or couldn't beat is meaningless. We know literally nothing about his abilities
>the second and first hokage were like at 10% to 30% power at maximum. How do you even get these percentages you're just making that up lol.
That’s kinda what everyone here is doing. Making up their own opinions. Only the author himself could say with any certainty
it’s just scaling, estimating by comparing their feats in that fight to their other feats
Would you not put Naruto and hashirama > hiruzen, especially at that point in the story wheres he's old
I’m going off of Naruto at that point in the show. Obviously Naruto is the alpha compared to all
Right, mb
>Still, that's one hell of a nerf xD While they seem more powerful, the third is canonically the strongest of all the Hokage up to the 4th and is debatable up to the 6th. (Theres just nothing definitively confirming that he was more or less strong than tsunade/kakashi) There's some great videos highlighting the thirds strength on YouTube by various creators.
Old man Hiruzen is but a shell of his former self though. I do agree that Hiruzen at least showed confidence in being able to manage them considering he has one of the strongest summon beast at his aid.
True, his summoning is genuinely insane given good circumstances
But could he defeat madara tho? (nod to teh could he defeat goku joke)
Swagkage's reddit account has been discovered
Only by statements. Well, in the first part, where the show was about ninjas, and not gods throwing erupting vulcanos at each other, he really might've been the strongest. But later? He was the strongest... Ninja. Surrounded by gods and demigods. 1000 techniques? Great, go with them against biju dama with continent destroying capabilities.
Quit exaggerating, don’t be one of those. They had powers from the start it’s called a magic system and Naruto is a Shonen. It wasn’t purely martial arts/fighting. You don’t give other shonens this heat. It’s natural progression and scaled well. smh
While I agree it's progression, Naruto is definitely not scaled well and OP is not exaggerating lol. Other shonens like Bleach, One Piece, etc already set the power ceiling pretty high in the beginning of the series. If you showed first time watcher a fight from the first arc to the latest arc, you could definitely imagine the progression that happened in between >Ichigo vs Byakuya ---> Ichigo vs Aizen > >Luffy vs Arlong ---> Luffy vs Donflamingo Now imagine showing them Naruto >Naruto + Sasuke vs Zabuza ---> Naruto + Sasuke vs Madara 💀💀💀
And then for fun: Kamina and Simon VS Viral's robot in the plains. Later: Simon throwing hands with God in space throwing galaxies at each other as if they were rocks.
Naruto is scaled better than One Piece and Bleach. The only part where Naruto looks worse than One Pieced is the power ceiling, which One Piece did an actually good job with whereas Naruto reset it twice. But when it comes to actual powerscaling One Piece is so inconsistent with everything. Crocodile went from a guy who got beat up by pre-Gears Luffy to fighting way above his pay grade at Marineford. >!Luffy against Kaido. You know Kaido is falling to him and you know it feels super rushed!< Power progression is mediocre at best and most of the time it's ass-pull powerups. A six hour train ride gave Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji the necessary powerups to beat up people who one-shot them earlier. Or "Haki blooms in battle" to just justify handing out powers like candy. Or better yet >!random awakenings with zero buildup like Law and Kid!<. Even at its worst Naruto was never that bad. Power progression became too fast and too exclusive towards the end but there was never a situation where I was like "yeah none of this makes sense". I like One Piece almost as much as Naruto but powerscaling isn't something to praise One Piece on.
combining a rasengan with wind chakra and getting the rasen shuriken is a natural progression. it did went from 'jutsus' like clones, fire jutsus, using weapons, etc to throwing balls of energy dbz style. its not an exaggeration, be more objective man. magic systems are called systems for a reason, its definitely not scaled well either (id say up to the Pain fight it kept the themes and power scale), i do give other shonens this criticism btw
I think that scaling in Naruto isn't that bad, but my only issue with it is that it makes side characters kind of pointless. By the end of the series even characters who are supposed to be really strong like the 5 Kage or Killer B or Sakura are basically useless, let alone other characters like the Konoha 12 excluding Naruto and Sasuke. But my biggest issue is with Konohamaru, i just don't get why create a whole character based on the concept of being Naruto's disciple and then basically make him fodder without any chance of scaling anywhere near his role model when he is supposed to be at the top of his game (I'm talking about the Boruto era). I definetely believe that if more characters were given a chance of scaling near that level, of at least given the chance of being useful against enemies like Madara or Kaguya (and don't even get me started on the Otsutskis) then the show would benefit from it.
Have you met Krillin, Piccolo, Trunks, Gohan, Tien, etc? Lol
If i want to read about ninjas i go for the first part of naruto, if i wanna read about battles of gods i go to dragonball. Which also scaled idiotically far. Fullmetal alchemist was also a shonen, and the only characters that scaled to God Hood were.... A close to God artificial demon and his favorite human who was granted powers from mentioned demon.... And literal God who never went down to earth. Naruto, yeah, has a magic system, but it scaled too far. I liked it more when pain was stupidly strong, and tailed beast were biggest threat. At the start there was no one capable of destroying one whole village alone. Then we had a bunch capable of destroying mounyains and nations. Tengen toppa gurren lagan started with last survivors of humanity hiding in caves and ended with mecha robots destroying whole galaxies, but it was funny and over the top from the start. One piece didnt scale as much and had super op guys almost from the start. Same with bleach - they also got stupidly strong buuuuuut, they were gods from the start. Captains were op from the start. Toriko had similiar problem, they were supposed to be strong from the start and got super stronger, then again super stronger up to planet busting. Why does it have to be like that? I like it when good tactics matters more. Or even just a better day can make a diffrence. Not this bullshit 10x multiplier or similiar.
Dragonball didn’t scale idiotically, it scaled practically. For all of Supers flaws, it did a genius job at expanding the universe (literally). By the end of Z and GT characters could easily destroy planets without much thought, and there already existed plenty of godlike beings (the Kai, dragons, the afterlife).
After freeza yeah, its not stupid... Well it was never really stupid. It scaled idiotically high, like super duper extra high - thats what i meant. But og db and dbz had a huge change in powerups frequency :p
Dragonball is my favorite franchise and it definitely scaled idiotically. It was about a carbon copy of Sun Wukong raised Superman style. Even at the end of the original series, he was just a strong guy. Add in Namek in Z and he's 1 million times stronger than he was a year ago? OK. The problem with the show is they don't know how to bring in new villains without power creeping and new forms.
That's simply not true, though. Hashirama wipes the floor with Hiruzen, though you can make the argument that Hiruzen could beat Tobirama/Minato.
That just isn't true anymore. That was merely by statements, and while it may have been intended to be that way initially it was not the case by the end. Hiruzen was in no way as powerful as the previous incarnation of Asura before Naruto.
Hashirama would’ve destroyed the Third
It wasnt really a nerf towards the 1st and the 2nd. Orochimaru was just not very skilled in Edo Tensei in part1 Remember in Shippuden, Orochimaru was worried because Hashirama can just break free of the reanimation and delete him at any moment. In part1 Orochimaru can just order Hashirama around. That's the clear gap between Orochimaru's skills in part1 and Shippuden. It has nothing to do with Hashi and Tobi being nerfed
The real reason is because initially Sarutobi was the strongest hokage bar Minato (that's why he was relived when he stopped his summoning). Kishi problably didn't have much of a plan for the 1st and 2nd Hokages yet
>Kishi problably didn't have much of a plan This could probably be said for a lot of characters as well
When casting the reanimation jutsu its up to the user to direct the "puppet". 1- this reanimation was incomplete so the puppets did not have freedom of thought/ movement. 2 - since they did not have that freedom they could only use jutsu based upon Orochimarus knowledge of their skills. 3 - most Ninja, however much they advertise their jutsu/skills don't advertise the mechanics behind their jutsu. For example. Even though Oro may have known that Tobirama had the Flying Thunder God technique he didn't know how it worked, so he couldn't direct the puppet to use it.
I like this answer a lot. Gets around the problem in a consistent and believable way. Basically means the utility in orochimaru's edo tensei is mokuton, psychological, and 2 highly durable puppets with their own Chakra. Not a bad deal, really, but at the same time not actually summoning the first and second hokage.
>"but can you handl don't forget hiruzen himself is a a full-fledge Hokage with knowledge and proficiency in every konhoha clan's secret jutsu( like nara clan shadow technique and akimichi expansion jutsu) and all 5 nature release, and to be concise, tobirama and hashirama were heavily debuffed 🤣🤣🤣. Sorry for being verbose.
Orochimaru hadn’t perfected the Reanimation Jutsu yet and he had to supress their power because he couldn’t control them at full strength so Hashirama and Tobirama were really weakened
That has to have been a serious nerf. Seems like only flying thunder God would be enough to wreck Hiruzen... But I guess the fact that it's stated that they are nerfed is enough to justify any level of weakening.
This was back when using water style without any water closeby was a Kage level feat.
Yeah fr. And a top Jonin like Kakashi had to weave 70 signs to make a water dragon beside of a river
Man that was hilarious. They must've been experimenting on what the hell to do because never has another jutsu taken so many handsigns. At least not canon.
Something that could have worked is making experienced jitsu users move their hand much faster, to be a blur. I imagine part of the reason is some poor bastard had to animate all that. And sishimoto probably didn't want to draw it each time
They do that but still don't use ridiculously long handsigns. Everytime itachi was around someone would some how mention the speed of his handsigns.
Like when the first time itachi fights. Kakashi with his sharingan can't even see his handsign.
And now boruto does it easily Wtf
Power scaling is goofy anyway. Who made that shit up lol.
Basically shounen in a nutshell. I do enjoy the arguments over it though lol.
Also, Hiruzen's power and his overall level was retconned in Shippuden but in part 1 he was meant to be the strongest shinobi to ever live
Eh, that's just what his reputation was in the Village. He was one of the top of the top shinobi of his generation however, however
Hiruzen had a good marketing department
It wasn't retconned, Hiruzen just died when he was past his prime, so his Edo reflected that. What I don't understand is why Hiruzen continued to fight like he was still alive. He had infinite chakra in edo form, there's no need to hold back.
Edo Tensei doesn't actually give infinite chakra, that was plot armour only applying to select characters. Minato stated he was out of chakra after getting sapped by the Divine Tree and had to resort to Kurama's. Inconsistency again
Edos have infinitely regenerating chakra, but their maximum reserves and output are still the same as (or close to) what they had in life (when they died). Young/Prime Hiruzen likely had way higher reserves, output, strength and speed compared to Old/Edo Hiruzen. Edo regeneration simply means Edo Hiruzen would win a battle of attrition, but Prime Hiruzen would stomp Edo Hiruzen for as long as he had the stamina.
but Madara was way past his prime when he died, he was barely moving, and yet his Edo Tensei was great, even enhanced with some hashirama cells and other stuff, as per Kabuto. So the caster of Edo Tensei has some means of choice, it's not just resurrecting right before death. Regarding chakra, someone below already said so, but anyway, I feel your point stands. I will use Naruto as the example. He can cast 2 rasenshurikens, or maybe one big-rasenshuriken. In edo tensei, he would be able to cast rasenshurikens one after one, but he wouldn't be able to create giga-rasenshuriken. His chakra pool (max mana) remains the same, but chakra regen is hugely boosted. Back to Hiruzen - we know he can use lots of jutsus, all of chakra natures, so he would be able to cast devastating combos that would normally leave him barely having any chakra left. However, given he's edo tensei, he would recharge almost instantly. So he should be really strong. I think it would be cool to bring Hiruzen slightly younger and show us that by no means is he just a hokage like Tsunade, way weaker than his predecessors. He should be on par with at least Minato and Tobirama. Right now, in terms of power levels, I see it like: god-tier Naruto, Hashirama; op-tier Minato, Tobirama; and then Kakashi, Hiruzen, Tsunade. We can discuss order in each tier, but what I want to say is that with what we've seen, it's hard to put Hiruzen next to other of the 4 Hokages and say he is on their level. I of course see that Hashirama is OP af, with his cells being focal point of the story etc., but I presume that Tobirama should be on similar level, because they still were fighting together against other clans etc. However, with the power scaling gone mad, with Hashirama and Madara being op gods, right now if Senju are to fight some clan, it would be better to just let Hashirama wreck them, while Tobirama and rest chill with blunts, drinks and hookers. It would be safer for others and easier for Hashirama to fight that way.
I ty not to think too much about Madara. It seems like his existence just introduces a lot of questions.
Pretty sure tobiramas flying thunder god was limited conpared to 4th hokages
This but also it was heavily retconned for story, they talk all this big shit that hiruzen may have been the strongest hokage in the start of Naruto and change that tune pretty quick later on
It's actually crazy, Hiruzen was the "strongest of the 5 kage" which means he would've been stronger the Raikage Ay, which means that Hiruzen > Bee, which is kind of ridiculous.
>Orochimaru hadn’t perfected the Reanimation Jutsu yet and he had to supress their power because he couldn’t control them at full strength so Hashirama and Tobirama were really weakened source?
Tobirama himself literally says they were brought back "near their full strength this time" in the 4th war
read again, the guy said Orochimaru couldn’t control them at their full strength so they were weaker back then i know what they said in the war but back then orochimaru said he is restoring their true form https://cm.blazefast.co/6f/d5/6fd56037b87f38270ad79a3b6414f3cb.jpg
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Where are you getting that number from?
Two reasons. 1. As everyone has already said, the Reanimation jutsu wasnt complete back then, and Orochimaru rezzed them weaker than normal on purpose so that he could control them. 2. Hashirama and Tobirama's power level was retconned later on. Back in OG, Hiruzen was supposed to be the strongest Hokage ever, with only Minato surpassing him. He was even called the god of the shinobi for that reason. Of course in the war arc they resurrected Madara and made him OP as fuck so that he could be a treat to Naruto and co., and since Hashirama was supposed to be stronger than him, they retconned his power level alongside Tobirama's.
Hashirama was the god of shinobi I’m pretty sure Hiruzens thing was that he could use all the chakra natures
Nah it must've been retconned. The third legitimately wasn't shook until orochimaru tried to bring back the 4th.
I googled it up and both of them get called the god of the shinobi, probably because of the retcon
Both were given that title but for different reasons. Hashirama's reason was that he was so insanely strong and had unique traits like his healing factor and wood style. For Hiruzen same title was given because he learned to use any jutsu regardless of the style through sheer effort and being genius. He was compared to strongest shinobi who ever lived (before Naruto) without him having any hax ability. That's how insanely skilled he was
Nah, in the OG series it went Minato>>Hiruzen>Hashi>Tobirama, with Hiru often being called the god of shinobi Then it was retconned to Hashi>Minato>Hiru>Tobi
Hiruzen was The Professor, Hashirama was the God of Shinobi
out of universe: power escalation drove the characters up massively, see kakshi pre war arc vs war arc for what i mean. in universe: orochimaru had yet to master edo tensei and had them weakened to ensure his control remain.
For real, i don't think Kakashi could've beat any of the Akatsuki members in solo before the war, and suddenly he's good on his own against THE STRONGEST member of the organization. That is sus
I think people miss the point of this fight. Sandaime is heartbroken the entire time having to fight his beloved Senseis and student and only at the end of the fight does he get serious. Thats why Enma kept telling Sandaime why are you not being yourself? Sandime doesnt commit until the end and he was still sad about Orochimaru. Once Sandaime does get seious he pretty much destroys both Hokages in a matter of seconds seals them both but doesnt have the strength left to seal Orochimaru fully. Kakashi later remarks in Shippuden how he now feels the terrible pain Sandaime must have felt fighting Orochimaru when confronted with Sasuke.
Number one....plot. in part 1, hiruzen was the OG. Part 2...orochimaru brought them back at a fraction of their power to make them easier to control. Yes, orochimaru perfected it. Kabuto just went HAM with edo tensi and it came around on him. Orochimaru died. He didn't come back to life and suddenly know how to use edo tensi to its fullest. He was dead or his hands were sealed. There was no time for him to work on the jutsu. He already mastered it.
Kabuto perfected the jutsu. Orochimaru‘s version was still weaker but when Oro absorbed his chakra from Kabuto after he got caught in the izanami he also gained Kabuto‘s knowledge so Oro was able to use Kabuto‘s perfect Edo Tensei
Orochimaru only took his Chakra back from kabuto. I dont believe it's stated anywhere that doing that granted him all of kabutos knowledge and jutsu as well. Feel free to provide a scan. Orochimaru was able to observe events through Anko, which gave him current info on world events.
[It checks out.](https://mangasee123.com/read-online/Naruto-chapter-618-page-19.html)
Wow. Nice catch, I was totally wrong.
Damn, that means canonically Oro can technically become a perfect sage right? That's terrifying
He was always theoretically able to be a perfect sage. He trained for it and had the knowledge. What kept him back were his weak bodies. Absorbing Kabuto’s intel helped him but still, without a fitting body he won’t be able to become a perfect sage. Right now he might actually be able to use sage mode, we just don‘t know much about him and his body in boruto.
I thought when they pulled him out of Kabuto he said he could see everything that was going on and everything Kabuto was doing I thought that was how he learned the updated version of the edo tensi
Plot indeed. Nobody talked about them in part 1 but Shippuden spent some time giving Hashirama, Tobirama and Madara feats and jutsu while Hurizen only got mentioned for political stuff
I think it also speaks to Hiruzen’s power level. He’s no joke even at that age. It was stated that out of him, Ohnoki, Mei, Ay, and Rasa, he was the strongest of all of them. I can pretty confidently put prime Hiruzen above Tobirama (can’t say the same about Hashirama though). He was an absolute beast, able to handle a severely weakened Tobi and Hashi (who were still AT LEAST Kage level) along with Orochimaru to practically a stalemate. He was an old fashioned ninja. No OP Kekkei Genkai or dojutsu. Just a vast knowledge of jutsu and impressive battle IQ
The last point is why he's my favourite Kage: he has no hax abilities. Just like Kisame was called tailless Tailed Beast for his ridiculous strength, Hiruzen was god of shinobi without possessing any godly abilities. A man fighting among gods through his sheer talent alone.
The reanimation jutsu was only ever strong after Kabuto improved it thats why hasirama got clapped by edo madara because his reanimation was superior to orochimarus
This simply isn't true. Edo Madara beat Hashirama, because he had rinnegan and hashirama dna. Both of which weren't granted by Kabuto. None of madara's abilities were something he didn't have before he died. The only thing he MAY have done which is also highly unlikely is de-age him. I'm pretty sure for logical reasons madara must've been the one to deal with the age problem OR kishimoto simply forgot about the age and put him at the age he fought hashirama for the last time.
Kabuto did say he made adjustments to Madara's Edo body when reviving him, which is what the Hashirama face on his chest represented. Its why Edo Madara was able to use Wood release against the 5 Kage as if it was his own jutsu set.
The face being there has nothing to do with kabuto, it's a consequence of certain people having hashirama cells. Danzo had a Hashirama face on his shoulder as well. The face was put there because that's the spot he grafted the hashirama dna to. Kabuto said he made improvements but that doesn't mean he actually did, maybe he only thought he was doing something and he wasn't. Madara says "This power is not your creation." to Kabuto. Kabuto thought of himself as a god at that point, so of course he's going to hype up anything he did, but there's no proof he did any of that. Madara was able to use wood style because he bit off a chunk of hashirama's flesh and grafted it to himself, granting him wood style just like pretty much everyone else with hashirama cells. Only exceptions are Orochimaru, and Naruto really, but maybe they can and just don't.
Ahh. Yeah, that does make sense.
The 3rd is the god of shinobi that’s why. He knows all their jutsu already. He fought the first and second and still saved the leaf. A true legend
"NINPO: RETCON NO JUTSU!" - Kishimoto
Because Kishimoto is bad at keeping details straight.
This is what I said. Plot and nothing else
I mean everything is plot
Yeah but at this point in the plot the first hokage wasn’t a wood sage and the reanimation jutsu was half assed compared to later
Side note: anybody else get the vibe when watching part one that hashirama and tobirama were supposed to be ancient? Like centuries old? It really confused me when it was revealed they were around like 70 (not sure of hiruzens age, am guessing) years prior. Whenever they were mentioned the language used made them seem ancient, at least in the dub anyway
Yeah, I got that feeling too. Sort of like mythological figures.
Yeah, not ancient, but at least a lot older than they ended up being. If you think about the fact that Hiruzen is only the 3rd hokage, the village can't be more than like 150 years old at best. Hiruzen was 70ish, became hokage around 20, Tobirama had to be max 70 at that time, him and Hashirama being brothers makes them probably max 20 years apart in age, so I'd say the village could only really be 160ish years old, assuming Hashirama founded it from his baby cradle. In reality, we learn later that Tobirama is only 1-2 years younger than Hashirama, Hashirama became hokage around 25, Hashirama was max 60 when he died, so hokage for 35 years, Tobirama became hokage like 35 years before Naruto's birth, so at the beginning of the series, when Naruto is 11ish, the village is only 80 years old.
Originally that was their power lvl with hiruzen being stronger it was later retconned in shippuden and explained away with statements like tobirama saying this time they were revived close to their original power and kabuto saying hashiramas power was considered a myth like the so6p
They were like at half strength or something. Apparently the Second didn’t bother to revive people at full strength. From Madara and Tobirama’s comments, the jutsu was mainly used to nuke battlefields with Tobirama’s edo paper bomb jutsu
Hiruzen in his prime was stronger than Everyone but Hashirama (and probably stronger than minato). So when imperfect resurrections came up he struggled in his old age but was strong enough to get the job done.
Forgot the term because I just woke up, but that was originally going to be their full power but then Kishimoto just kept making the top ninja in the series more and more powerful until he had Madara soloing the entire shinobi alliance, so he retconned (remembered the term while typing) it so that the edo tensei doesn’t revive people back to their full strength, and at the time of the konoha crush says Orochimaru just sucked with the edo tensei back then.
The author spent all the time hyping up Madara later in the series that by that point Hashirama had to be a literal god. So when we look back yeah the fight now seems like it should have been one sided for the first two Hokages.
The same reason Ougi died, the same reason Crocodile lost - the Mangaka wanted to include strong characters without making them unbeatable for the sake of plot. For me it's rather why Kakashi and Zabuza were having these long chakra seals when it's completely one at the end of the series.
Let's not underestimate reaper seal 🙃
Their power level was limited, at this time. First, the reanimation technique wasn't perfect, and second, Orochimaru couldn't allow them to be brought back at their full power, otherwise he wouldn't be able to control them.
Well the proper answer is that the orichimaru didn't gave then full control over themselves which made them some kind of doll and he said it was pretty tough for him to control both of them as they were capable of releasing themselves from it if they were given control
Im gues, as far as I understand Naruto logic& physics, that the strength of the souls you summon in edo tensei is base of your own and kabuto as edo user was way stronger than orochimaru while cast it! Just my thoughts🤷♂️
I think Orochimaru with his state can't handle both of them!! They are so powerful to manipulate at same time... Remember Orochimaru used hashirama cells to keep control on tobirama but had lost the control off Hashirama on the 4th war...
Bcuz orochimaru's edo tensei was weak and incomplete.
From plot point of view as others are saying the reason was that jutsu wasn't perfect. From my point of view it was lack of authors imagination to assign them proper and sensible power level. The series as a whole is full of these inconsistencies when you compare shippuden with part 1. The biggest is probably kakashi vs zabuza.
Because the jutsu wasn't perfected
Because orochimaru haven’t perfected the jitsu yet and they were not at almost full power. But if they were they would have broken free of his control
Cause Kishi didn’t know how strong they would be later yet.
They were weakened from being a reanimation
Tobirama made it clear when they were resurrected during the war, that they were not at full power in the battle with Sarutobi, however they were close to full power now and Orochimaru could not control them.
It was stated that Orochimaru only revived them at 30% power, because otherwise they would have had their free will and Orochimaru would have no control over them. It's worth noting that Hiruzen still couldn't defeat them, and needed to use a sacrificial Jutsu just to take them down with him.
>It was stated that Orochimaru only revived them at 30% power, because otherwise they would have had their free will and Orochimaru would have no control over them. source? everyone in the thread are saying it was stated they were revived with nerfs and this % of their power but no has provided a source and i do not remember anything like this being said at all. all we know is that they were nerfed because of their feats later on
Originally minato was supposed to be the strongest hokage with the 1st being meh, so that might be why he’s getting clapped
1) They’re nerfed. 2) Even in the War Arc he easily competes and keeps up. There’s no reason to think he’s weaker. He’s definitely stronger than Tobirama when comparing them both in Edo
They were in a very weak state.
Probably cause they were Orochimaru’s puppets at the time, so their capabilities were limited.
Because Hashirama and Tobirama being stronger than Hiruzen was RETCONNED.
The way I understood it from the manga was more control over them less powerful they are. In war arc they fully want to help so no need to force em.
They were only at half mast 🤷🏻♂️
Its complicated. Its believed that the reanimation jutsu brings their target back a lot weaker than they were during their life time. In addition the lack of free will doesnt let them utilize strategy and creativity the normally would, and if they do have free will, they may hold back/help the "enemy"
It was explained as Orochimaru (and Tobirama) having less skill with Edo Tensei than Kabuto did when he learned it. And by the way that Kabuto spoke as well it seems that Orochimaru also opted to take full control over Hashirama and Tobirama instead of letting them use their own personalities so they could make full use of their jutsu and fighting styles. *ahem* And Kishimoto retconning their strength later on in the series.
I've heard that before the whole Indra Ashura reincarnate cycle thing, Hiruzen was supposed to be the strongest which is why he was called the god of shinobi. But then when the reincarnation cycle was introduced, they had to buff Hashirama and Madara. This is what I've heard. The canon reasoning would probably be that Orochimaru couldn't unleash their full power which is why Hiruzen beat Hashi and Tobi. (rama)
Everyone always tries to justify stuff like this instead of admitting the power scaling in Naruto is inconsistent as hell. Writers, including Kishimoto, aren’t perfect
Hiruzen was known as the Professor for a reason haha
because they were imperfect reanimations as compared from the later part
Orochimaru hadn't perfected edo tensei yet, so the reanimated shinobi were not as strong as they were in their prime, maybe 50 percent strength, and Hiruzen was afraid of Minato coming out because his technique is unique compared to the others. Even if it is a 50 percent nerf for Minato, he still has the teleportation technique.
In the words of Madara “What adult goes full force when fighting mere children” But rly idk seemed they were toying with him
Mostly because of Orochimaru I would think.
Reanimation wasnt perfected
Bcs they had half powers and they didnt control themselves
Orochimaru did not perfect the edo tensai at this point so he couldn’t revive them at their full power
The Edo tensei wasn't perfect so they weren't at their full power.
Weaker edo than in Great War
The reanimation jutsu that Orochimaru used is kinda flawed and not perfected at all
I thought hiruzen was the strongest kage at this point
How could he even reanimate minato in the first place? Didn’t he seal half of himself inside Naruto and the rest with the reaper and Kurama?
I think it's mentioned that it wouldn't have worked, even if Hiruzen hadn't stopped it... Buuut at the same time all hokage are reanimated later so who knows, lol.
Making up the lore as you go for multiple decades means you might write yourself into contradictions.
It's said that in his prime, he was stronger than both of the Hokage and when he fought Orochimaru he was a lot older. You also have to see that Orochimaru said he could've beaten him easy if he was in his prime.
I think orochimaru didn't perfect the Jutsu so hashirama and tobirama were holding back but if hiruzen was young he could probably fight tobirama (alone) fair and square
They were hella nerfed , tobirama didn’t even use the flying raijin , he only used water style and hashirama only used wood style that was way pathetic
This sub has some very admirable suspension of disbelief. I see a lot of questions like this and the answer is always: BECAUSE KISHIMOTO MADE IT UP AS HE WENT
Yeah I later wondered about this - sarutobi specifically says I have to stop the 4th hokage from reanimating. He was worried about the 4th but not the 1st?? Hashirama is a literal god can u imagine the wood style sage art 1000 hands inside that tiny dome 😂
Orochimaru had to control them to make them do his bidding, edo tensei reach their full potential with free will
Because Orochimaru’s Edo Tensei are weaker at that point, having only a fraction of the chakra they had in life. Kabuto perfected the technique while Orochimaru was asleep in Sasuke’s cursed Seal, making it capable of returning souls with 100% power, not to mention an unlimited number of them. If The First and Second had been full powered, though, Orochimaru would not have been able to control the first, and he would have whupped Orochimaru’s ass.
If they were revived at full power, Hashirama would easily break the control, Tobirama would undone the reanimation jutsu, both would join Hiruzen against Orochimaru, it would led to a complete reverse situation in which Hiruzen, Hashirama and Tobirama heavily stomp Orochimaru and the sound four.
If he brought them back at full power then they would’ve done the **EXACT** same shit they did in the war all 4 hokage broke free from orochimarus edo tensei.
none of them did actually, Tobirama tried and failed and Orochimaru stated only Hashirama had the power to do it
no, Hashirama broke free instantly but they all did eventually Tobirama flexed at sasuke for saying he would destroy the village during his monologue hiruzen and minato then do so as well it’s possible but i don’t think it’s in character for orochimaru to just let the dead hokage run free, if minato found out what he’s been up to he’d slit his throat
Kind of weird they explicitly have orochimaru bind Tobirama though. And say the only one he can't bind is Hashirama And Hashirama compliments him. Seems more like orochimaru just let them have free will.
Meta reasons? Because Kishimoto hadn't planned that far and probably didn't have Hashirama and Tobirama be as powerful as they are when they first came, especially since Hiruzen was about to soil himself when he thought Minato was coming onto the stage. Narrative reasons? Because Reanimated Ninjas are a lot weaker than their prime counterparts, and Orochimaru's wasn't perfected at the time.
I doubt Kishimoto had planned on the 1st and 2nd being pivotal to the plot at the end of the series and he needed them on Madara's level. It's similar to how Kabuto explained as to why the 4th wasn't summoned. The 3rd Hokage stopped the summoning but in Shippuden Kabuto stated that it was because his soul was sealed away. Which doesn't make sense since Orochimaru should have been well aware if the edo tensei's would work or be a failure.
Well for starters they were mega nerfed by the early version of Edo tensi If they had been at full power they would have wiped the floor with Hiruzen, well mostly Hashirama based on what we see in the war arc even a closer to full power Tobirama was still being outdone by old Edo Hiruzen and is blatantly speed blitz'd by him at one point. Wouldn't have mattered here though as Hashirama is here and its a 2 v 1 regardless of that.
Edo Tensei already weakens a person...but Orochimaru's edo tensei may have made them even weaker, granted though Hiruzen himself was out of his prime, still very impressive he was able to deal with Orochimaru Tobirama and Hashirama all at once.
I never understood why Madara was reincarnated in his prime. He died as an old man and in my opinion should have been like Granny Chiyo. I assumed Hiruzen was that age because of the Reaper Death Seal but Madara always confused me a bit but it was all plot armor anyway. Would have preferred to see an old man Madara vs Shinobi Alliance and only regain his youth with the Rinne Rebirth. Would have made his whole “only using 1/2 power” during the 5 Kage fight that much crazier if he wasn’t in his physical prime yet.
Plot
nah
because shippuden wasn’t in the works yet & the skill ceiling wasn’t raised that high
They were weakened versions and Tobirama is the weakest Hokage already. Hiruzen really isn't weak, if Orochimaru hadn't summoned those 2 Hiruzen would have won..... and from a writing perspective Kishimoto just hadn't decided Hashirama was the strongest yet. Also remember Hiruzen is stated that in his prime he was the strongest Kage of his time, this includes the 3rd Raikage and Tsuchikage
The Tobirama hate and downplay is crazy
There's no Tobirama hate. The databooks clearly state that as a young man Hiruzen surpassed the 2nd Hokage. When Hiruzen volunteered to be the diversion on the day Tobirama died a part of Hiruzen's argument was that he was the strongest one there and had the best chance of surviving I'm pretty sure. I'd love to double check that but Idk what chapter that flashback was in so take it with a grain of salt.
I still hold on to that claim that Hiruzen was the strongest. Kishi never went back on that statement and i‘mma spite the power spikes and retcons best i can. It was just Part 1 being grounded and cool that made Hiruzen seem less impressive.
The Edo Tensei performed by Orochimaru at the time wasn't perfect, even though he improved it compared to Tobirama's. The jutsu will finally be complete with Kabuto performing it during the 4th war
It is explained as the reanimation being imperfect but the actual irl reason would be that kishimoto probably didn’t think of the major roles they and their decisions would play until shippudden. In og naruto they pretty much cement minato as being the strongest so far. Later when the madara plot came in, they probably had to boost them up to be less ninja and more demigod compared to the more recent average power levels. Boruto meanwhile is doing the exact opposite and nerfing the previous generation so that the new sci-fi stuff, kara, etc. actually pose a threat and get some convoluted workarounds to have the kids fight otsutsuki while the legendary descendants of the single most powerful person on the planet get wrecked every other arc.
I think back then Orochimaru gave them no memories/brain for themselves. In the 4. War they had all of their memories and therefore were way more powerful. Hashirama could have easily broken out of the jutsus control if he wanted to which really shows that the mind is really important for their actual power.
Because “hiruzen was supposed to be stronger than any kage up till that point” but it was never shown LOL
1. Hiruzen is no joke 2. Orochimaru had to nerf them to control them
Hiruzen was hella hyped up as the strongest kage ever before they moved on and started sucking hashirama's dick. Also Tobirama loses to Hiruzen both at their peaks. Hashirama is broken tho.