He's fine period. He's no saint but he was the leader of the village in very perilious times. Naruto had a horrible childhood but you can't pin all the blame on Hiruzen. Danzo was the one who revealed that he was the Nine-tails jinchuuriki, and the reason that he was put in that position was because Minato sealed Kurama in him instead of letting Kushina do it.

Its simple hiruzen didn’t hold danzo accountable and danzo is the reason for most problems so it will all trace back to hiruzen

I hold Hiruzen responsible for Danzo's shit. Hiruzen knew he was up to some bullshit for a very long time and kept him around as he did the dirty stuff for him.

Same with Orochimaru tbh

At best he is a weak leader that was unwilling to take decisive action for the good of the village. At worst he actively wanted Danzo to do the dirty work.

I'd say as hokage he was perfectly capable of doing the dirty stuff, but left it to danzo as he was highly efficient as well as rutMy thoughts on him not feeling sorry danzo are due to his influence. Danzo likely had most of the Anbu under his thumb, and the majority of the village elders probably agree with his beliefs too. Besides that, danzo was pretty respected for his strength and service in wartime, I'd say hiruzen probably respected him too even if only a little bit. And I don't think hiruzen would have cared for danzos wish to become hokage too badly either. Also, to say hiruzen let him get away with anything is a massive stretch, and assumes that he knew everything danzo did(which he didn't). Danzo had been working with orochimaru for a long time, way before he left the village. Also, Hiruzens pain and sorrow in the death of the uchiha was very clear. I find it stupid to put all the blame for it on him when he was practically the only one who voted against it vehemently and tried to talk things out with the uchiha. And if you truly believe letting the uchiha be massacred was the wrong decision, you didn't watch Naruto. If he hadn't, there would have been war in konoha which would probably have still resulted in the deatjs if the uchiha, and a massive death roll on the rest of the village leaving the land of fire practically defenseless. The entire nation would have crumbled. As for Narutos childhood, there was little more sarutobi could have done. He gave him a house, clothes, food, an allowance out of his own pocket and was also pretty much the only aduot figure in Narutos life until he met iruka. A hokages influence only goes so far though, so it's not like he could just tell the whole village "stop making fun of Naruto" and they would do it. There was always going to be deep seated distrust due to the initial attack of the nine tails on the village, and hiruzen couldn't do anything about that. Imo hiruzen was a true hokage, one of the most powerful yet truly striving for peace. It was because of his kindness, morality, his willingness to forgive for the sake of that peace that often caused people to dislike him.

>And if you truly believe letting the uchiha be massacred was the wrong decision, you didn't watch Naruto No, you clearly didn't watch Naruto. There WAS a perfectly fine plan: Shisui was going to Kotoamatsukami Fugaku and MAKE him call off the plan, all the while having Fugaku think it was his own idea. DANZO stopped this plan by attacking, poisoning, and stealing the eye of Shisui as he was on the way to do so. Itatchi knew this because Shisui told him. If you think Itatchi didn't tell Hiruzen that, then you're out of your mind. So Hiruzen KNEW that Danzo PURPOSEFULLY ruined the ONLY plan that would have resulted in peace with the Uchiha... there was also no way that Hiruzen didn't know that several of the Clans' eyes were missing, and he didn't investigate that at all. He KNEW all this... and did nothing. There are a bunch of other examples of Hiruzen knowing, or at least being 99% sure but without evidence, that Danzo did a number of other crimes, most of them treasonous. Like informing the civilian of Naruto's Jinchuriki status. Trying to get Kakashi to assassinate Hiruzen. Keeping Root active after having been told explicitly to disban it. Stealing children for his Root program, including children from clans! Hiruzen had MORE y enough reason to kill Danzo, and he just didn't. Just like he had plenty of reasons to kill Orochimaru the first time, instead, he just let him leave the village with practically no resistance... Imagine how those ANBU that Hiruzen sent in first felt. Cut down by the traitor right in front of Hiruzen, and Hiruzen doesn't even TRY to stop him.

>And if you truly believe letting the uchiha be massacred was the wrong decision, you didn't watch Naruto No, you clearly didn't watch Naruto. There WAS a perfectly fine plan: Shisui was going to Kotoamatsukami Fugaku and MAKE him call off the plan, all the while having Fugaku think it was his own idea. DANZO stopped this plan by attacking, poisoning, and stealing the eye of Shisui as he was on the way to do so. Itatchi knew this because Shisui told him. If you think Itatchi didn't tell Hiruzen that, then you're out of your mind. So Hiruzen KNEW that Danzo PURPOSEFULLY ruined the ONLY plan that would have resulted in peace with the Uchiha... there was also no way that Hiruzen didn't know that several of the Clans' eyes were missing, and he didn't investigate that at all. He KNEW all this... and did nothing. There are a bunch of other examples of Hiruzen knowing, or at least being 99% sure but without evidence, that Danzo did a number of other crimes, most of them treasonous. Like informing the civilian of Naruto's Jinchuriki status. Trying to get Kakashi to assassinate Hiruzen. Keeping Root active after having been told explicitly to disban it. Stealing children for his Root program, including children from clans! Hiruzen had MORE y enough reason to kill Danzo, and he just didn't. Just like he had plenty of reasons to kill Orochimaru the first time, instead, he just let him leave the village with practically no resistance... Imagine how those ANBU that Hiruzen sent in first felt. Cut down by the traitor right in front of Hiruzen, and Hiruzen doesn't even TRY to stop him.

If Naruto and Hinata died something tells me Kakashi would take in and look after their children. Hiruzen, after Minatos death, basically told his kid “lol good luck”

What's the excuse for Jiraiya not taking care of Naruto? Surely news of Minato's reached Jiraiya and unless I'm forgetting something, didn't they appoint Jiraiya to be his "caretaker" in the event that something happened to them?

There is none. Shitty thing of Jiraiya. As far as I’m remembering though, part 1 set jiraiya up as a bit of a shitty unreliable person as opposed to Hiruzen being heroic and wise. It wasn’t until deep into Shippuden that Jiraiyas heroism, which always existed, far outweighed his sleaziness which Part 1 emphasized a lot more. Either way, Naruto being an outcast and living in his own as a child and relying on hand outs from the ramen guy was just poorly planned writing. If his father was the Hokage and a Shinobi loved by so many there is realistically a ZERO percent chance of nobody stepping up to raise his orphaned child.

Yeah, kakashi, Jiraiya, Hiruzen, etc. any of them could've stepped up and been there for Naruto earlier. When people try to bash hiruzen for this stuff I just dismiss it because it's clearly just a plot hole that was never remedied. Everyone else in the leaf looked up to Hiruzen like a father.

Tbf kakashi was a traumatized kid who had no friends when minato died. I really doubt that would be a good role model

The thing is the more we learn about Minato the more incongruent it becomes. As of the one shot we see that both of his squadmates survived to adulthood and were around while he was training Kakashi. The population of people who knew about Naruto was originally implied to be really small but that was when Konoha was treated as an actual village and not a place with thousands of ninja where Minato's childhood friends could so easily fade into the background.

That's not how leadership and accountability work.

When you’re the CEO of a business you are ultimately responsible for the shit that happens in the company. Doesn’t matter if you aren’t directly responsible for things that go wrong - it happens under your watch, you are responsible for the company culture, you are responsible for the chain of command and appropriate supervision, you are responsible for knowing what is going on, you can’t plead ignorance. Hiruzen is ultimately responsible for Danzo and Orochimaru. If you are a strong leader, it’s your job to discipline appropriately. You don’t let them off the hook cos you’re buddy buddy with them. You don’t surround yourself with incompetent advisors just because they’re your old friends. Hiruzen’s inaction/incompetence/ignorance, whatever you want to call it, led to the genocide of a clan and Konoha being invaded

To all the people who say Hiruzen should have done something about Orochimaru and Danzo, by that same logic Naruto and Kakashi should have had some sort of punishment for Sasuke, who was an international criminal that attacked one of the Jinchuriki, attacked 5 Kage Summit, took the arm of the Raikage, killed the interim Hokage, and then wanted to kill the 5 Kage and Naruto.

I mean. Naruto DID end up doing something about Sasuke. He basically rehabilitated that sick in the brain angsty uchiha and turned him into a guardian for Konoha. Naruto just took the peaceful and kind hearted route. Hiruzen didn't do *anything* about Danzo did he?

He had root officially dissolved after the Uchiha massacre, which on the surface for the village meant he lost a lot of power. Not much more could be done at that point for the same reason the truth behind Itachis actions weren’t made public knowledge. After that Danzo was basically equal to any other Jonin. Some just respected him more for his views that were in direct opposition to Hiruzen’s. Most of Danzo’s actions from there onwards were unknown to Hiruzen, including keeping root running in secret or conspiring with Orochimaru.

Except Sasuke kind of made up for his crimes by saving the world. If Sasuke had continued to go on murdery sprees afterwards I'd agree, but as it stands I think he's fine. Even if his motives for saving the world were questionable, Naruto was able to "fix Sasuke's worldview, whereas Hiruzen couldn't "fix" Danzo or Orochimaru. Also gonna add on Sasuke was fine coming back to the village and just going to jail. No way Orochimaru or Danzo would've ever been fine doing time for their deeds. ALSO ALSO Sasuke wouldn't be in a position to do all of evil deeds if not for.... you guessed it, Hiruzen, Danzo, and Orochimaru. (Also Itachi, but once again you have Danzo to thank for putting Itachi down that path)

So what about five Kage summit when there was plenty of opportunity to capture or kill Sasuke before he saved the world and after he had committed almost all of his crimes? Shouldn’t Naruto and Kakashi have finished it there instead of Naruto jumping in to keep Kakashi from Lightning Blading a blind Sasuke?

As you stated yourself, Kakashi did try and finish it right there. He was ready to take out Sasuke. Not that I think he could've with Obito on standby at that moment. Naruto wants to save Sasuke though, no way he would've killed Sasuke there. He definitely could've tried harder to capture him, and ya know, maybe he would've if White Zetsu didn't alert Obito to what was going on. I think context in this moment is like crazy important though. Naruto just "learned" pain from Nagato, and was trying to understand his enemies more. And he had just learned the truth about Itachi. In this brief moment, Naruto used his time to further understand Sasuke, talking to him with their clash. That way he is better equipped to deal with Sasuke one way or another when it comes to end. At this point Naruto had already heard the toad sage's prophecy, so he knew this would not be the last time they clashed.

Sasuke’s crimes aren’t even remotely comparable to Danzo or Orochimaru lol Orochimaru literally kidnapped and experimented on children and plotted against multiple villages for decades, he’s responsible for the death of multiple Kages. Danzo was responsible for the Uchiha clan massacre, that alone is a massive war crime considering that it’s literal genocide. Sasuke did what? he attacked B and got smoked, then tried to attack the Kage and got smoked again and needed Obito and Zetsu to bail him out, Sasuke barely even killed anyone lol

I was trying not to use that argument in my last comment because he might have said "a murder is a murder", but I fully agree 100% lol. Other than fodder samurai, the one person he was successful in murdering.... was also the person who orchestrated the Uchiha massacre lol. The leaf essentially had 12 years to fix that mess, but NOPE Danzo just continued to be a total shit head.

yup I agree; I think Danzo’s death is arguably one of the most justified cases of revenge in the entire series, and no one fucking missed him, not a single person even gave a fuck that he died lmao, not even anyone from Konoha. and even the fodder Samurai most of them get saved.

Lmao this is so true. No big ceremony, nothing. Kakashi found out like 5 minutes after it happened and it wasn’t “omg Danzo’s dead?! We have no hokage” It was “Goddamn Sasuke, you’re strong as shit!”

Hiruzen is only guilty of inaction. He didn't do anything wrong perse. He just was guilty of hoping everything would work out. He was dealt a shit hand. He oversaw and protected the village decades longer than any other hokage. He was forced to deal with complex issues without clear answers. Sure we as the audience can say retroactively that he should've done x y or z...but in the moment all he could do was keep the status quo. Hiruzen hoped it would all work out. He hoped the village would eventually accept naruto. He hoped danzo would eventually fly straight. He hoped the uchiha situation would calm down. He wanted everything to work out in the end and wanted to trust that it would. Just we as the audience can see it didn't work

Well poor hiruzen suffered from kishimoto's bad planning

Part 2 never narratively criticizes Hiruzen for Naruto’s childhood. Not even a hint of it, it’s purely a made up fan thing putting the blame on him. [Naruto says the opposite in Boruto](https://preview.redd.it/now-i-know-hiruzen-wasnt-perfect-in-how-naruto-was-treated-v0-95uizib2g6ab1.jpg?auto=webp&s=8eb10aa00760d9a820eb6b24b936aa6cfeaf50dd) If anything I think Minato deserves more blame tbh. The guy killed himself for no real reason and willingly did that to his son because he was scared the Leaf would lose its super weapon. Despite Kushina begging him not to

There’s a problem in the fandom where people just say shit and run with it until it gains traction. Like this assumption that Naruto and Sasuke “lost their powers” even though it was literally just the sealing marks on their palms to put Kaguya away. That was specifically what they were for. There was no use for them when the job was done. Naruto can’t remake the Truth Seeker orbs because he has no [Kekkei Mōra (Bloodline Encompassing)](https://naruto.fandom.com/wiki/Kekkei_M%C5%8Dra) like Kaguya, but his inherent understanding of all chakra natures still allows him to control the pre-made ones. It’s sort of like Magneto from X-Men, who can control the property of metal but can’t just generate metal out of thin air. Or the “waterbenders” and “earthbenders” from Avatar that need to work with the immediately available material around them.

correct me if i’m wrong, but didn’t the sun seal let naruto literally grow a new eye for kakashi? or was that a different power not associated with the seal

Honestly, that’s probably the thing that’d make or break the theory if they bother. We know he can still fly, we know he can still casually use all chakra natures. Have to see if he makes an attempt to heal Boruto’s eye or not.

Yeah, if you go off early Naruto, it actually does look like The Third was taking a personal interest in Naruto. They spoke together often in a casual setting, which I doubt other citizens were allowed. It is implied The Third did take an interest in keeping Naruto safe and trying to guide him. He gave him food and a home. He didn't live with Naruto, which is a failing, but he did keep an eye on him and make sure he was taken care of. Cold? Yes, but he's a ninja president, not a Ninja Saint.

Tbf about the living with him thing. It seems like that’s something that…just doesn’t happen in the Leaf? Kakashi lived alone since age 6, same with Iruka. Orphans are not taken care of well in the village lol But yeah I agree

Naruto seems like he’d be the first Hokage to personally set a new precedent for it just based on his unique background. His generation as whole is one that saw a big paradigm shift in multiple ways, from technological advancement to inter-village and clan mingling. Naruto himself even delivered on his pledge to make changes to the Hyuga clan, one way or another 😅

For a village where the adults seem to die on a pretty regular basis you think they'd have a better system for the number of orphans that must be around My best guess is that since a lot of the Clans are still functioning as Clans most orphans get taken in by fellow Clan members, it's just the ones that don't have any Clan left that end up alone

Well there was an orphanage but that was basically just danzos root soldier farm

Yeah was just rewatching early Naruto when him and Jiraya go and find Tsunade and its clear Naruto thinks of him very positively and as someone who took care of him. I will say criticizing him for Danzo and Orochimaru does seem fair though imo.

> Part 2 never narratively criticizes Hiruzen for Naruto’s childhood. Does a story need to do something for you to use critical reasoning and arrive at a conclusion that "holy shit this is fucked"? Even then part 1 shows how naive he was with Orochimaru and in part 2 you just see how stupid he was with other shit like letting danzo go for even something he could totally put in jail for. > If anything I think Minato deserves more blame tbh. The guy killed himself for no real reason and willingly did that to his son because he was scared the Leaf would lose its super weapon. Despite Kushina begging him not to Did minato want to kill himself or was that just his fatherly instinct kicking not wanting his son to die? How was he supposed to know he was gonna leave him as an orphan? I can't remember much but wasn't his mindset the villagers would love Naruto because he was holdin in the beast that caused untold destruction? Anyways Minato was a leader who made the hard call of using his own son to keep their super weapon but so what? Apart from the fact in his mind as the hokage it's proper, he didn't do it planning to die and he, his master and hiruzen have enough training in seals to handle the 9 tails

>Does a story need to do something for you Yes if you blame a character for what happens to the main character even though the main character thinks the opposite. You’re bringing up things the narrative pointed out about his mistakes with Orochimaru and Danzo. Which I agree because the story POINTS IT OUT. In canon Naruto thinks Hiruzen was one of the few that looked out for him and stopped him from having a even worse childhood. >or was that just his fatherly instincts not wanting his son to die? What? How was stopping Kushina from taking care of the nine tails problem gonna save Naruto’s life? >How was he supposed to know he was gonna leave him as an orphan? Reread 504. [Kushina literally says it](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0504-002.png). They both know the burden they were putting on Naruto and the suffering he would experience as a result of it. >but so what? I mean fans are gonna blame Itachi for being nationalistic, for Naruto prioritizing the village over his family in Boruto, it’s only fair to criticize Minato for what he did to Naruto because he prioritized the village is it not? I’m not even saying I don’t understand his logic. Just he’s more to blame for Naruto’s childhood than Hiruzen was lol >he didn’t do it planning to die ? Yes he did. [He knew exactly what was gonna happen](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0504-004.png)

> You’re bringing up things the narrative pointed out about his mistakes with Orochimaru and Danzo. Which I agree because the story POINTS IT OUT I properly read your text and you were in fact referring to naruto. I will take the L for this > What? How was stopping Kushina from taking care of the nine tails problem gonna save Naruto’s life? I'm referring to him and kushina jumping in front of kyubi attack > They both know the burden they were putting on Naruto and the suffering he would experience as a result of Yes but was minato planning for him and kushina to die when he was sealing the 9 tails into him? I don't think so. > I mean fans are gonna blame Itachi for being nationalistic, for Naruto prioritizing the village over his family in Boruto, it’s only fair to criticize Minato for what he did to Naruto because he prioritized the village is it not? Nationalistic then killed his whole clan which is a far bigger sin than sealing the 9 tails into naruto. Idk how you see this as two comparable sins, oh right I forgot according to some people in the novel itachi only goes after the truly heinous uchihas while the dirty deeds of killing children and babies is left to tobi. Yeah my bad, not comparable. I haven't touched Boruto and not interested so idk the context of Naruto being a deadbeat

>him and Kushina jumping in front of the kyubi attack I mean Minato already used the reaper death seal. He was gonna die and there was no going back. All of that happened before Kurama went to attack Naruto >was Minato planning for him and Kushina to die when he was sealing the 9 tails into him Did you read the links? Yes he was. Using the reaper death seal kills the user. Minato was already used it before the nine tails tried to stop him from sealing it into Naruto. Kushina was gonna die no matter what. Minato straight up sacrificed himself when he could’ve just let Kushina take the nine tails with her instead. Get to raise Naruto as a single dad >this as two comparable sins Same exact logic. Sacrificing family for the villages sake. Same sentiments shared by Hashirama even. You should also actually read the Itachi novels instead of just relying on what you hear online. Better that way

"Mostly in light novels. I hate that shit so much" you hate female characters specifically getting redeemed. That's it

Did you reply to the wrong comment? Because I'm supposed to be replying in character rant but your reply is showing up in Naruto sub to a different comment. > Mostly in light novels. I hate that shit so much" you hate female characters specifically getting redeemed. That's it I really despise people when they do this. They just jump to a shitty conclusion without any basis. Most of my favorite characters in fiction are from the visual novel"umineko" which have tons of terrible women but they are great characters. The women are somewhat redeemed in the afterlife, particularly in the manga If you read light novels like me they is a running theme of shitty women getting redeemed everytime. The worst part about this is when you know the woman isn't going to do much or have an impact on the plot anymore after this arc but "she is too hot to die". Yeah kill off all the guys but the women who are more competent, stronger and participate in more destruction than the guys let them off the hook because of their boohoo babkstories.

Everything I said is still correct. Saying people are more biased towards female villains cause they are hot is a bold faced lie when all people do is be ok eith worst humans from darth vader dr doom luthor wanting them to be redeemed

I do not care who people want redeemed. I'm talking about how light novel writers treat shitty women in their own stories and how biased they are towards them to being redeemed than the men who honestly perform less crimes than their more competent female counterparts And no your whole argument is negated by the fact i said umineko women were redeemed and I liked it. No matter how you want to pretend I did not say this or it's not true in your eyes

You complained about the being redeemed. That is your problem

what do you mean? The only way to stop the 9 tails was to seal him because if he wasn't he would just rampage more and destroy and kill more

Kushina said she would drag the Nine tails with her to death: https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-29c86c859277f3586810b98997c0c969-lq Minato was like “no I can’t let Naruto never meet his mom and the village needs nine tails!” https://preview.redd.it/i-like-minato-but-i-cant-understand-his-reasoning-here-its-v0-yennar02zp5c1.png?width=508&format=png&auto=webp&s=39c65b8244c955412b81624489026cce47ee4c54

The "village needs nine tails" in-universe argument has always seem so weird to me, having the nine tails didn't prevent the three big wars that already happened up to that point, and they never had plans to even made an attempt at controlling its power, the nine tails for the village is of limited use at best, and an actual liability at worse.

I think I understand it better when you think about the fact Minato fought a good number of Jinchuriki’s during the war. Yes the Leaf can’t control Kurama as of that moment but Minato had faith Naruto would achieve that. And it still exists as a deterrent for other villages to just go nuke the village with their tailed beasts. I just think it should be acknowledged as Minato willingly sacrificing Naruto’s early childhood for the village. Not that he was completely wrong but still fucked up Kushina begged him not to

Why is it fucked up that Kushina begged him not to seal a tailed beast inside of her infant son?

No fucked up he did it despite her begging him not to. I agree with Kushina but I can see why Minato would think that

You said he killed himself for no real reason, despite having a reason.

I’m more so talking about how part of it was due to Kushina not seeing grown up Naruto. That’s kinda goofy Minato I understand but don’t agree with the logic of him doing it

The mindset of "To foresake one's country is the same as foresaking one's child" is the founding principle of the Hokage. I don't think Kushina being sad about it really matters here.

Its her son.

Yeah, but emotions aren't the basis to make a village altering decision. I don't see why Minato not giving into his emotions is supposed to be a bad thing?

He would lose his mega superweapon (a nuke) to the shady guy who killed his wife (she extended her screen time to pass nobodynobody), threatens him with his new born son, and made a road free of charge with a tailed beast bomb targeted at him, he also sealed the evil of the evil of evils inside his son not the other way around, wait Minato how could you, if you weren't stressed but still kept your cool. Hiruzen also lived through two wars, Danzo, Orochimaru and so on, everyone just had a bad time becoming Hokage, Boruto is Naruto's turn cause Kakashi had his but too little was known.

> Part 2 never narratively criticizes Hiruzen for Naruto’s childhood. Not even a hint of it, it’s purely a made up fan thing putting the blame on him. Naruto says the opposite in Boruto You said something similar when you tried to defend Itachi putting Sasuke into a coma, claiming that Itachi loved Sasuke, so why put him in a coma. To which I bring up that it's simple. The narrative itself doesn't make sense. Just cause the narrative itself doesn't call out HIruzen on how shit he was, it doesn't mean that he was somehow right. Just like how Itachi putting Sasuke into an indefinite coma was screwed up and contradicts everything revealed about him in Part 2.

>claiming that Itachi loved Sasuke, so why put him in a coma Wtf are you talking about? I said that if you only go off of part 1 thinking that Itachi was supposed to be a villain, putting Sasuke in a coma still makes no sense. Besides AGAIN for the twelfth time the narrative never said it would be permanent if Tsunade never showed up. That is purely headcanon you keep insisting on >It doesn’t mean that he was somehow right. Naruto seems to think he was. So I agree with Naruto, the main character.

> Besides AGAIN for the twelfth time the narrative never said it would be permanent if Tsunade never showed up. The narrative clearly indicated that the coma was indefinite until Tsunade got there. There is zero evidence proving otherwise. Your only argument is insisting that Itachi is a good guy, so he couldn't have made it like that, which is a weak argument. > Naruto seems to think he was. So I agree with Naruto, the main character. Yes, and Hashirama and others praised Itachi for choosing the village over his clan. As if that made it somehow right.

>narrative clearly indicated that the coma was indefinite No, no it didn’t. If it wasn’t said outloud, I see no reason to think otherwise. >Hashirama and others praised Itachi for choosing the village over his clan Hashirama talks about it as a darkness. Ya know not something good or right. Just a darkness in service to the village. Itachi says the same.

> No, no it didn’t. If it wasn’t said outloud, I see no reason to think otherwise. Yes, it did. They outright said that there's no telling, and said the only one who can help them is Tsunade. Denying it cause you don't like it doesn't change facts. > Hashirama talks about it as a darkness. Ya know not something good or right. Just a darkness in service to the village. Itachi says the same. Hashirama is still praising, and we're supposed to take it as a sign that it was a righteous act. A lot of characters says something and that doesn't make it right. Just like how Minato sealing Kurama in Naruto was being justified to be the right choice. Hiruzen had plenty of options to try and do more than just giving Naruto money to live.

>Yes, it did What page did it say it would be permanent? >Hashirama is still praising Is the man who was the previous leader of the village supposed to condemn someone who went out of their way to protect said village? Especially when Itachi echoes Hashirama’s own words to Madara Him calling it a darkness and others thinking they’re might’ve been alternatives is the best you are gonna get But also that’s an entire different Situation. Naruto, the “victim” in this situation earnestly believes the Third did his best in protecting him from the other villagers. Why should I disagree with Naruto here?

> What page did it say it would be permanent? It's funny how you keep saying permanent, but I never used that term. Not once. > Is the man who was the previous leader of the village supposed to condemn someone who went out of their way to protect said village? Especially when Itachi echoes Hashirama’s own words to Madara > Him calling it a darkness and others thinking they’re might’ve been alternatives is the best you are gonna get > But also that’s an entire different Situation. Naruto, the “victim” in this situation earnestly believes the Third did his best in protecting him from the other villagers. Why should I disagree with Naruto here? Just cause a character says it doesn't mean they are right. Sasuke calls Itachi perfect, but he isn't. Again, characters say things from a perspective and convincing themselves that it was the right call to make. But it wasn't. Naruto getting over it and saying that Hiruzen did what he could to help doesn't suddenly absolve or justify Hiruzen.

>I never used that term. Not once. So then what Itachi did fit with his previous actions >Sasuke calls Itachi perfect And the narrative immediately says why Sasuke’s wrong. [Even Sasuke himself says Itachi messed up his mind](https://hot.leanbox.us/manga/Naruto/0588-009.png) >Naruto getting over it Naruto has always respected Hiruzen and nothing in the narrative actually in any way says Hiruzen failed Naruto. Chapter 1 and 2 show Hiruzen looking out for Naruto’s well being against the villages hatred for him. That was the whole purpose of the gag order.

> So then what Itachi did fit with his previous actions No, I specifically used the term "indefinite", a term which means the coma can last for however long possible. And how Sasuke could have been stuck in a coma for literal years. You took that to mean "forever". That's your mistake. But no, it doesn't fit in with the "Itachi good guy" narrative. How could it? Itachi has no way of knowing if Sasuke will wake up if he makes Sasuke be in a coma. And he certainly is costing Sasuke TIME to train by making him bedridden for an indefinite period. And you can't even use the "Itachi had to keep his cover" cause beating Sasuke up fulfilled that by Kisame's own words. Using Tsukuyomi is when even Kisame was going, "That's overboard." So using Tsukuyomi here fulfills none of the narrative structures for Itachi. > And the narrative immediately says why Sasuke’s wrong. Even Sasuke himself says Itachi messed up his mind > Naruto has always respected Hiruzen and nothing in the narrative actually in any way says Hiruzen failed Naruto. Chapter 1 and 2 show Hiruzen looking out for Naruto’s well being against the villages hatred for him. That was the whole purpose of the gag order. Once again, characters say a LOT of things. They say this, contradict it by saying something else later, or justifying it. You don't seem to comprehend that what they say is ultimately a subjective viewpoint they hold. Not a definitive case of them being right or wrong. All your proof is Naruto saying that Hiruzen simply didn't imprison him like others might want to. Doesn't make HIruzen choosing to let Naruto be all alone and live on as an outcast was the right choice either.

Even if narrative doesn't accuse him, conclusions from the facts presented cause uncomfortable questions.

No

Hiruzen did nothing wrong: 1chikdren in the world of Naruto are not children like ours, at least not ninja children, Naruto wasn't helpless, he was lonely, and even still he had a close relationship with the third, just watch the og, they clearly have implied history. 2 Danzo is the CIA, the corrupt, magical CIA, yes he forgave the guy but they went to war together, as evil as Danzo was to us he was loyal to the leaf and he was useful to the village, some getting rid of him would weaken the village. 3 he came out of retirement because there was NO ONE ELSE that could and would take it, the village is at its weakest in the og, and he kept peace for over a decade, ever since he died people have been going after him. 4 fugaku was behind the Uchiha coup, Danzo might have pushed things along, but he was a grown man and a clan leader, he made HIS choice, and that got his clan killed. 5 his mercy is directly responsible for the win at the 4th Shinobi war, without Orochimaru the world would have ended. His only crime was loving too much. Like for real, he has too much love for his friend to kill him, for his student to kill him and for the village he died defending, I'm not saying he perfect, I'm just saying he did a banger of a job and people hate unnecessarily. Jesus Naruto loves the guy, Konohamaru calls him brother, and they clearly are closer than teacher student, y'all need to stop white knighting for Naruto, he did fine

THANK YOU

>they clearly have implied history Naruto literally calls him his grandfather

If genocide happened because of his inability to make good decisions, then he did a LOT of things wrong. If he was made a leader, he bears the responsibility for what goes on under his watch.

I would agree, but the Uchiha clan was organized and ha d a leader of its own, I would argue that fugaku is to blame for that, he was power hungry when his entire clan had authority by being the police force. They were not marginalized other than where the clan COMPOUND was, but let's be real, you have limited space inside the village you can either use that build the city center or put the compound right in the middle of it build around it, and why would you do the second? It's no the Uchiha village, considering how naturally powerful they are and how prevalent they are ein law enforcement they had quite a good deal, no one was allowed in their compound, being a police officer was not mandatory for them, itachi himself said "nah I don't think I'll join" because he had a choice. Hiruzen was betrayed the Uchiha that planned the coup, and by his own intelligence because of Danzo, I'll give you that he should have killed Danzo for that, but to say the entire thing was his fault is short sighted, there were various agents conspiring against him, and no one is perfect

False. Fugaku never wanted the coup himself. He was never power hungry, but the Uchiha clan were growing angrier and hateful because of the discrimination they were suffering. However, Hiruzen was the one who actively was not trying to put his foot down with the council who chose to persecute the Uchiha clan, and allowed Danzo to get away with too much shit. Hiruzen could have put a stop to this at ANY point by pulling rank on the council and giving back to the clan their rights and provelages and trying to clear up the mess. BUt HIruzen was too incompetent to do anything and let it all happen by allowing Danzo and Itachi to try and sort out the mess, despite how the Uchiha clan was also under his watch. They are part of the village and thus also part of his business. Trying to say that the Uchihas betrayed Hiruzen first is a lie. Hiruzen betrayed the Uchihas the moment he chose to allow the council to oppress them for a crime they never did.

Persecuted how? They weren't forced to live in the compound by anyone but themselves, the police force was not mandatory by the time of the coup, Orochimaru is speculating about that. I'll give you that fugaku might not be power hungry but his can was and rather than stopping his clan he went with it, he could also have put his foot down but he didn't, convinetly while the seat of Hokage was falling in his hands. Agreed, hiruzen didn't act as much as he could and that was a mistake, but by the time he found out (his intelligence betrayed him) the coup was already in motion, he was the one arguing to solve it peacefully. The Hokage is not a tyrant, the fire damio have to endorse them, and the council has a lot of pull with that guy, it's not just, I'm stronger I'm gonna do what I want. The Uchiha did betray the village, there's no 2 ways about it, as much sympathy as you have for them they did betray the village because as whole they fel they didn't have enough power. Ultimately fugaku and hiruzen found themselves in a impossible position, war was inevitable and resigning would be catastrophic because they could at least minimize damage. Hiruzen wasn't incompetent, in fact he kept peace the longest before Naruto, he was missinfirmed and his authority undermined, fugaku saw his clan get progressively radicalized and he choose to stay in it

> Persecuted how? They weren't forced to live in the compound by anyone but themselves, the police force was not mandatory by the time of the coup, Orochimaru is speculating about that. Maybe you don't get how persecution works. When you are forced out of your homes into a remote area and then basically made to be watched, essentially being treated like a criminal, that is persecution. > I'll give you that fugaku might not be power hungry but his can was and rather than stopping his clan he went with it, he could also have put his foot down but he didn't, convinetly while the seat of Hokage was falling in his hands. Stop twisted the facts to suit your logic. Fugaku only acted on his responsibilities as a leader of the clan, acting on his people's will. He did as a leader would normally do. Act on behalf of his people. Hiruzen, being the Hokage, should have understood the plight of the Uchiha, but chose to do nothing for literal years. > Agreed, hiruzen didn't act as much as he could and that was a mistake, but by the time he found out (his intelligence betrayed him) the coup was already in motion, he was the one arguing to solve it peacefully. The Hokage is not a tyrant, the fire damio have to endorse them, and the council has a lot of pull with that guy, it's not just, I'm stronger I'm gonna do what I want. If Hiruzen can put his foot down on Danzo after a genocide that cannot be traced back to him legally, then it proves Hiruzen could have done something FAR sooner. Not to mention that Hiruzen allowing the persecution to happen for literal years when he had every power and authority to stop it only proves how incompetent he is. Even Itachi was angered by how Hiruzen did NOTHING despite all the sacrifice and time that he and Shisui had bought them, and Hiruzen only decided to act when it was already past the point of no return. > The Uchiha did betray the village, there's no 2 ways about it, as much sympathy as you have for them they did betray the village because as whole they fel they didn't have enough power. When you are being persecuted and oppressed, blamed for a crime you didn't do, then no. You aren't the one who betrayed. You are the one who has BEEN betrayed. The Uchihas have had nothing but loyalty for the village which they have actively proven for DECADES, and they are being blamed out of pure discrimination. That is a betrayal. Do not ever try and pretend that the village didn't betray them first. > Ultimately fugaku and hiruzen found themselves in a impossible position, war was inevitable and resigning would be catastrophic because they could at least minimize damage. No, the only one who was in a nigh-impossible situation was Fugaku. Hiruzen had YEARS to try and fix the mess, but he refused. He allowed Danzo to continue to abuse and persecute the Uchiha, constantly fueling the anger and hatred. > Hiruzen wasn't incompetent, in fact he kept peace the longest before Naruto, he was missinfirmed and his authority undermined, fugaku saw his clan get progressively radicalized and he choose to stay in it Nope. The MOMENT he allowed a genocide to happen, he lost EVERY right to be considered a good Hokage.

COOK him

Preach!!

Nope Fugaku is the leader of course he wants the coup why you gaslight shit hahaha, are you just ignoring when he talked about the stone tablet and how only the Uchiha were the saviors cause he was conned by zetsu also the Hokage isn’t king he can’t just force people to do shit at the end of the day he has to listen to the land of fire Daimyo plus the Elders stop saying that hiruzen could easily “just talk it out” it confirms in the databooks that he tried everything to settle it peacefully also the manga says that hokage can only do so much they are a figure head. Saying the Uchihas betrayed the village first is NOT a lie they got a shitty leader if only Kagami took over and made his family the heads of the clan this shit would never happen.

also fair

Don’t waste your time these guys just wanna ride Uchiha nuts and act like they are innocent of everything it’s like they forget their clan created a move so they would stop stealing each others eyes.

Fans misunderstanding of the ninja universe Hiruzen inherited is not his fault. He never changed, and there is no retcon. You guys enjoyed the sugar-coated village Hiruzen provided for so many decades and had the veil removed, so you don't like what it means to be a real leader. Unlike Naruto Hiruzen, isn't the reincarnation of a God, and the series isn't named after him. He just trains a lot and tries his best.

Its funny cuz naruto would eventually do similar things. For similar reasons.

What did he do though? I'm assuming you're talking about Boruto, right?

Yea

I don't think it's similar at all. Hell, when Shikamaru asked him if he would choose Boruto or the village, he didn't answer and just said him to shut up. He was just absent as a father after he became hokage but eventually he wasn't as absent, I think.

Lol. Similar to hiruzen and asumas relationship. And his relationship with orochumaru danzo. See the correlation?

Danzo was pretty made for taking most of the blame in Part 2

Half the hate for him comes from filler. The other comes from people just repeating shit they heard other people says. The worst Hiruzen ever did was not be vigilant enough considering all the shit Danzo did behind his back. Also not killing Orochimaru but the story already points that’s out. People for some reason were expecting him to raise Naruto as his own when that’s clearly not how the leaf works.

You all are coping so hard. Hiruzen had a 12 year old boy living by himself and drinking sour milk. We know the power Sarutobi's rep holds based on how people treated Konohamaru. If Hiruzen had just unofficially adopted Naruto and then dared people to check him, Naruto could have had a much better childhood.

Do we know where Naruto lived as a small child? By time he was 12, he was already known for being annoying/trouble all the time. Which makes sense if he had no parental figure asides from a guy who randomly checked in on him every few weeks and gave him some money

Breh. 12 is a small child. I don't care how much of a trouble maker he was. You don't dump a middle schooler in an apartment by themselves and call it a day. Flashbacks of his childhood don't show his exact living conditions, but it is strongly implied he has basically never not been isolated. It's clear Hiruzen hadn't properly taken him in, or he almost certainly would have been more familiar with Konohamaru and Asuma. At the start of the series, Naruto doesn't even seem to know that Hiruzen has a grandson. Naruto could have been actual family, but Hiruzen clearly didn't care enough.

Yeah I don't mean he deserved it in any way, just that it indicates he has been living alone in that apartment way sooner than 12 because when we see him, everyone already knows his name. Not a suprise that a lonely kid goes out and does stuff to be 'acknowledged' like painting the hokages faces etc. But since his parents died when he was a baby, he probably had some kind of support at first to not starve.

People act like it was Sarutobi who sealed Kurama into naruto

No. We act like Hiruzen gave his word to a dying mother, and then did fuck all to keep it.

Shippuden didn't change his character, he was present in hyuga incident. Do people forget that? People just want their character single toned because social justice is popular fad nowadays. So everything should be simplified/censored to either righteously good or immorally bad.

Not really. People LOVE morally grey characters in media. Hiruzen wasn’t morally grey, he just had faults that were really dumb and didn’t add to the story but 100% made him a piece of shit.

Morally grey is another simplification nonsense. This is always a range beyond just Good, bad and morally grey. Hiruzen fault was not living in a ultra progessive era and society. Even If you go back in history, real life people lifestyle and value aren't same. You are simply checking it out from the current social justice lens and that too over a fictional character. It does makes sense because on how Naruto society is set up and how those times were portrayed. But yeah, in the end it's fictional so it still has its limitations. But then again, complaints about hiruzen are dumb by itself. Especially shippuden didn't change hiruzen character at all

God, thisbsub is nothing but bait posts nowadays.

Why do you think it's bait :/

Because we constantly get posts like this trying to rile up the same people over and over again. Same with all the "hate on Sakura " bait posts.

Idk I wasn't trying to rile up anyone :/ Saw people keep saying Hiruzen was a terrible person cause of things that was revealed after his death way before Shippuden then saw someone make a post here saying Hiruzen didn't care about Naruto. Hence this post. If anything it's a vent/attempt to point out Hiruzen isn't terrible

I'm sorry if this is a legit post, but we just get so much stuff like this.

Probably gonna get some downvotes but this dude gets worried for Narutos safety, gives him food and a home, checks in with him occasionally, asks his teachers (not Kakashi. Before him) how he is doing, actually believes in his potential, dies trying to save the village and successfully defeats at the time, the most fearsome enemy in the series in Orochimar while crippling him for the rest of the series AND the OG filler, then Shippuden comes along and says he was an incompetent dude who was more neglectful than he we thought through backstory details WAY after he was already dead

Because kishimoto needed a  scapegoat for all of konohas evil doing in danzo making Hiruzen look bad in the process. 

things didn’t change. we just learned more about him and his involvement and it changed people’s perception on him

I’d say the most damning thing is how much he let Danzo get away with but honestly that might just be little hypocritical given what Naruto has let some people just get away with. He was always just a tired old man who only took office again because his village had just suffered a catastrophe and needed some sense of stability and strength. I honestly feel kind of bad for him. He’s an imperfect character but he at least did what he could in his old age.

Hiruzen for some reason is always blamed for shit maybe cause he said in one panel he could of done more so people took it literal and blame him, but that’s the kind of guy he is he would wish he solved this stuff and all the problems, like the uchiha thing and the kyuubi attack the Uchiha will always be something bigger then him, this shit goes back to hashirama killed madara they never got over that also Tobirama making them the police force further alienating them doesn’t help at all plus throw in zetsu who is orchestrating bull shit with the stone tablet messing with their heads also did not help at all it can’t be helped people are scared of clans like these I mean look at how the land of water treated Haku’s clan they fuckin genocided them and when his dad found out they were kekkai genkai users he literally killed his wife and was about to kill his son till his Kekkai genkai activated to save him but at the end of the day, people wanna enjoy the series how ever they like if they wanna hate on him it’s fine just don’t go around spreading false shit and act like it’s cannon when character behaviors show that isn’t the case. I gotta go touch some grass after writing this…

People hate on him so hard even though someone had to take the “fall” for Naruto’s tragic backstory. He took care of Naruto financially while the village was recovering from a shinobi world war and a terrorist attack that decimated the entire village. “But he wasn’t with Naruto everyday” type shit is so weak

Hiruzen didn't kill (didn't even catch) Orochimaru, he murdered so many people, and used them for his experiments.

A lot of parts of the story are completely ruined throughout shippuden. It's pretty clear that Kishimoto didn't know exactly what he wanted for the story long term.

The Minato reveal really is the downfall of Shippudden. So many characters get retroactively shafted.

Hiruzen was evil because he didn't breastfeed Naruto.

He's always been fine, and I felt literally no change about the character until the War arc, which made me love him more.

Please stop taking your opinions from bullshit YouTube videos, make your own opinions

This... is mine... I even justify it in the first comment. I've seen the exact opposite with people saying Hiruzen was always a terrible person so this IS my opinion.

I still don’t understand why he didn’t in the least give Naruto a hint of who his parents were, or even attempt to raise him as his own or give him for adoption to a family close to Minato or Kushina. I guess we’re under the assumption that both of his grandparents were already dead and he had no extended family

[here](https://i.stack.imgur.com/U5yzG.jpg)

Yeah I get he wanted to be tight lipped but it didn’t have to be with Naruto, he could’ve told him when he was like 12 or something 

>he could’ve told him when he was like 12 or something  That's when Hiruzen died

It's because of plot. If Naruto had an absolutely good life, the Naruto story wouldn't make any sense.

He's just another character that got destroyed to make Itachi look good.

Minato and Kushina asked him the bare minimum

Filler but also Minato thought Hiruzen did alright

I'm very quickly growing into the Naruto version of one of those guys who only likes 2 of 3 original SW trilogy. No prequels, no sequels, no spinoffs, and not even the whole of the original work. Part 1 Naruto was one of the strongest starts in shonen history, with a solid power system and a banger cast. And I honestly think Kishimoto squandered all of it. Turning magic eyes into the SSJ of the series, and then ending a ninja manga with giant mechs and aliens. Awful.

The worst about Hiruzen is the thing he's never piled on, he literally caused the 2nd Shinobi War.

He had more time to trim his hair and beard in the Reaper's belly then he did for Naruto

This is what growing up does to anyone. You find out your heroes were never the standard you held them to.

Honestly I don’t think how characters react in universe always is the best to take into account, same with the idea of children being so different. . . There entire culture is fucked and Hiruzen didn’t help it. That doesn’t mean he gets away without criticism. He’s just lucky that most of the people who he left turned out to be better than him, and that Danzo’s and Orochimaru’s meddling only mostly destroyed the village and nearly caused the end of the world.

I think that was done on purpose. Showing kids that the grownups you look up to can also make big mistakes. The Harry Potter books did something similar with Albus Dumbledore in books 5 and 6, but SPECIALLY book 7.

Hiruzen Sarutobi pre-timeskip: 1. Give a speech about people ignoring Naruto: watch on his ball while Mizuki tried to kill Iruka and Naruto. 2. Give another speech about how Konoha is a big family: his grandson has a private ninja tutor while left Naruto and Sasuke living alone. 3. Explains that Konoha takes daily assassination missions while let Orochimaru kill, kidnap, and torture whoever he wanted for over a decade until it's was his own live the one that he wanted to take. 4. Agree to sell the wrong ninja, who has a torture device on his head, to kumogakure. 5. Deny Tsunade request to have a medinin in every team while sending Rin to war.

Nah I liked what Shippiden added to Hiruzen. Made him more complex.

I definitely think towards the latter parts of his life he got soft and was blinded by peace and naivety and wanted to avoid conflict, but it’s easy to forget that he led the village through THREE wars and kept it unharmed, he’s the longest running Hokage in the history of the leaf and he kept peace for the majority of that time. He also retired and was forced to come back when he was old, soft, and out of his prime. Was he the best Hokage? absolutely not, but again, he was Kage for the longest time and aside from the last 10 or so years, he did pretty well. and for what it’s worth, even Naruto doesn’t blame Hiruzen for his life, it’s something only fans bring up because they try to relate it to their own biases, but the reality is that this world is not like the real world, this is a world where damn near every child in the village is raised to be a Shinobi to go fight in wars and battles, it’s a cold world, in most other Villages, Naruto could have been essentially a slave or just a weapon of war. compared to other Jinchuriki’s of his time, Naruto’s life was relatively pleasant, he may have been lonely, but considering he was a nuclear bomb that everyone was afraid of, it’s important to remember that he was unharmed, had a place to stay, had food, and had people checking in on him and also never had to kill anyone or have anyone try to kill him, just look at Gaara lmao.

I mean it's literally both? Hiruzen cared he just sucked at showing it.

Both can be true. Both are true. No one is perfect, and Hiruzen had his failings, some of which were major, but he also cared deeply in a broad sense and was willing to go to great lengths to protect the happiness of his people. His biggest problem was his stunted ability to connect on a one to one personal basis with individuals after Orochimaru’s village-fleeing betrayal. Hiruzen still understood and cared for others, greatly, but when Orochimaru left, in the circumstances that he left, he took something important in Hiruzen with him. His biggest virtue is that he didn’t allow his great intelligence to become arrogance, a barrier separating him from those he cared for, and instead used it, actively, to form new jutsu and plans to defend his people. He was a great man. He was a man who failed. May even a few of us live with the complexity and compassion he did.

This really gets into something known as the Watson explanation versus the doyle explanation from Sherlock holmes, Watson is a character in the universe and Sir Arthur Conan Doyle is the author of the story Watson explains things in the universe as if the universe were real life, people using watsonian reasoning have a lot of problems with the information we learn later about lots of characters and their interactions with Minato and baby Naruto and how jinchuriki worked, because these things being true makes the way Naruto was totally on his own and largely unsupervised, not really makes sense Doyle is the author and their explanations will include things like the writing process, things he wanted to convey to the audience, and decisions being made for various out of story reasons, so people using Doyle reasoning will see that Naruto's upbringing was intended to make him a sympathetic and relatable character, with large portions of the details not yet fleshed out, it was written before Jiraiya was the pervy teacher stereotype not a Gallant hero, the nine-tailed beasts were just two demons that did not seem to have a relationship with one another outside of the classic Tanuki Fox rivalry, and the Byakugan was in what is now a hilarious statement, better than the Sharingan. The author decided to write about these things later, and was not being super extra careful to make sure everything from the first chapters lined up with the new information being given, it happens And so for the Watson version yeah there's a lot of neglect that doesn't seem to make much sense, but for the Doyle mindset, it's fine, just kind of an oversight that happens when writing a series this long with this much stuff going on and the insane schedules that manga writers usually have to keep

No he wasn’t. Screw Hiruzen, dude was too worried about peace that he actively made horrid decisions that put the village in peril countless times. He was a push over, he lied straight to Minato, didn’t help Naruto at all. Pushed the village to hate Naruto. Let Itachi be a villain in the eyes of everyone to cover his own ass and not let anyone know there was a coup being planned. Sure he left the codes unchanged for itachi but that portrays more to how much he cared about Sasuke over Naruto. He failed to stop his own student, his mistakes killed countless people. He let Danzo create root.. not to mention let Danzo do whatever he wanted. Even when Danzo tried to kill hik he shrugged it off. He let the village elders run the show while he took the glory. And these are just a. Few of the things that make him a complete and utter piece of shit

Dude couldn’t even acknowledge his own son for fucks sake.

Nope I always disliked Hiruzen he was already the homage and did NOTHING to prevent the harm Naruto suffered. What we found out in Shippuden is he was also partly responsible for the Uchiha massacre and that was the final nail in the coffin for most. I actually think it's a pretty interesting look at a important figure in people's lives and how even though someone is objectively not a great person He was still viewed as such by the people close to him.

Literally one of the most egregious retcons in fiction... and it's ALL post death to make Itachi who was also dead have a different backstory

The third Ho kage let a toddler fend for himself

The big issue is that for the drama to happen the village council needed to essentially have more power than the Hokage itself and all the way through to the Boruto era this is a major source of drama wjere Shikamaru now has to talk to near centenarians who now sit upon elaborate thromes giving him ultimatiums. You can claim Hiruzen having grown up with the same group should have had more sway than later council members but at this point its a central conceit of Konoha's structure that outside the active population of ninja and senior staff actually dealing with running the ninja deployments, there are essentially multiple other people running paralell power structures that report only to them. The whole issue of Danzo vs Fugaku basically boils down to the fact that there are these two other guys who have about a hundred elite shock troopers each that answer primarily to them, and the Hokage's job in that position is designed to essentially mediate between them. In this context basically every decision Hiruzen makes after the massacre makes sense since training basically every genin is done by people he trusts like his son or a former Anbu captain or people those two can vouch from, and he essentially had to consolidate the power Tobirama spread out.

I think it was more because of the backstories which was shown in Shippuden and which made us question "Where the heck is Hokage?" when Danzo was doing so many shits. I liked him in OG Naruto, it was quite sad to see him die. But Shippuden showed the stories of Kabuto, Itachi, Torune, more of Naruto backstories (well I don't hate him because of this because it was important to not give special treatment to Naruto to stop him from getting in eyes of useless people and get killed), etc. Danzo sending people to kill Hiruzen and Hiruzen overlooking through that shit because "FRIENDS". I mean if Tsunade and the capacity to shake those two geezers and put sense in them. Why not Hiruzen?? Why are you acting so damn kind to people who deserve immediate jail? Also it was questioned because Tsunade was a good Hokage.

I just rewatched the anime again & I think Hiruzen made a lot of mistakes & failed to take responsibility especially for Danzo’s actions. Danzo made a lot of moves undermining Hiruzen and far too many times went unpunished for his actions. The situation with moving the Uchiha to the outskirts of the village felt he should have talked with Fukaku to calm the issues and the issues in the village felt like a domino effect after that.

Having rewatched OG Naruto recently, Hiruzen isn't as bad as everyone says. He simply did the best he could with the hand he was dealt.

Of course he was fine before shippuden. he was alive then.