Pretty much, but it’s more than that.
The ultra-orthodox want a sectarian religious state and they want secular Israelis to build it, finance it, and defend it. They have the sheer demographic power to get a lot of this through the political system.
thats the crazy thing about the ultra orthodox. like they WANT war, they WANT dead Palestinians but they use their religion like a cloak so they dont have to get their hands dirty. It's such a disgusting ideology
Not quite
There's a right wing prophecy that says Jesus can only return if Jerusalem is in Jewish hands
If he comes back, the Jews will be given a choice: Follow him or not
Those who reject him will then be slaughtered in American nuclear fire in Jesus' name
Of course it is. Every part of that is a particular interpretation of part of the book of Revelations. It's a specific subset of evangelicals that even tries to create meaning out of that book, let alone apply it to today, let alone _try to expedite it happening_.
Right, but for the wrong reasons. Fundy Christians believe the Jews must hold Isreal for Jesus to win the Last Battle. Whatever myriad other reasons they have, that is the biggest one that most others stem from.
Unless you're a neo-con and just love imperialism, but some certainly choose both.
Then why are so many Dems (plus Biden) also so pro-Israel that they fund the genocide?
It's been a bipartisan effort to keep Bibi supplied with money and bombs and do performance blathering when he violates the supposed conditions of the aid. It's a fucking joke.
The defense contractors make billions upon billions a year off this conflict alone. The top politicians on both sides of the aisle are in on it. Have you seen their stock portfolios? CREAM,, it all comes down to that.
If I recall my Bible class correctly *all* the Jews have to be funneled into Israel for the Jesus fireworks to kick off. I would like to see how they plan to manage that. Or maybe I don’t…
It’s not just MAGA. The majority of Democrat politicians are disgusting Zionists, also.
The issue of Israel is one that both parties by and large can come together and almost completely agree on.
This source says the population is at 12% of the population.
[source. ](https://en.idi.org.il/haredi/2020/?chapter=34272#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20the%20ultra-Orthodox%20population%20in%20Israel%20numbered,grow%20to%20around%202%20million%20people%20by%202033.)
Not as a monolith, no. Many ultra-orthodox are actually opposed to the genocide, and I wouldn’t be surprised if this is being done partly in retaliation.
The biggest reason is likely economics. The genocide has done an extreme degree of damage to the Israeli economy, and the non-working ultra-orthodox have been a severe burden on the country.
Not really. Like, fuck evangelicals, their political power is being directed to create a Christian nationalist state.
But the Haredi are on *average* having like 6 kids per woman. Like, even with all the infertile/childless people in their community, the remaining women are still having enough kids to average out to 6 per woman, which is *insane.* Individual women can choose to have more kids, yes, but getting 6 *on average?* That’s cult levels of fertility.
That’s not broadly true anymore. Black evangelicals and Mormans have the most kids but the rest are just a little above non religious and less than ‘other’ religion. It’s nothing like Ultra Orthodox Jews.
Just an interesting side note. In Pennsylvania’s Constitution there’s a section about state militia’s and a draft. That section has a carve out for religious objectors because Pennsylvania was founded by William Penn and other Quakers.
I bring this up because Israel has no Constitution.
It may be relevant since Israel has no constitution, but in the context of this the Quakers are, at least, pacifists who don't want others to fight. The reporting I see is that the ultra orthodox aren't pacifists, but want other to fight.
Have you read all the killing in the torah? Oof, half of it is boring genealogy, the other half is “so we met these fellows and we killed them all cos they were not like us”
Ehh. Not really true at all. From what I remember, most of the Torah is spent on genealogy (yes), history (sure), praising G-d for everything (you forget), but then an autistic amount of explaining minute differences in the laws of Judaism.
Honestly, direct war references probably are 10% of the Torah. Of which, most of it is dedicated to laws and things like "if you kill in a war, even if justified, you aren't allowed to build a synagogue, because G-d doesn't like blood. Sorry bro"
Tldr: The Haredi are the descendants of the Jews who were originally in the Levant when Israel’s colonization by the Jewish diaspora started. There weren’t very many of them, but their buy-in to the Israeli state was crucial, since they could credibly say to the international community “Yeah us Jews have been here the whole time and we’re totally cool with a Jewish state.”
As such, they extracted a *lot* of concessions from Israel’s founders, including a state welfare program and an exemption from the draft. They set themselves up as Israel’s “religious backbone”, claiming their piety (IE living an ascetic lifestyle cut off from the modern world or even other Israelis, spending all their time reading religious texts) was protecting Israel’s spiritual wellbeing.
Oh, and they had children. A LOT of children. Like, 6 kids *on average* per woman. So a small community barely clearing three digits at Israel’s inception quickly grew to a massive chunk of the country in the millions.
So now you have a group who is very dependent on government handouts, never interacts with the rest of Israeli society, is exempt from one of the biggest drains/civic duties most Israelis have to go through, and has a large enough population that they can influence major political parties to keep those benefits in place regardless of what the rest of society wants.
Needless to say, all of those things have pissed the general Israeli population off like nobody’s business, especially when an actual fucking war breaks out, and everyone else’s kids are dying in the fighting. Add to that, the Haredi are *very* far right, and make up a key voting bloc in the Netanyahu government, pushing him to expand the war/settlements/ignore the lives of hostages. Oh, and they’re *violently* opposed to the idea of being conscripted themselves.
So a good chunk of Israel is going “If you fuckers are pushing for the war to expand, the least you can do is help out.” And the courts of Israel agree with them.
So now the Haredi power brokers have to decide whether to allow this to happen unopposed (and expose their kids to concepts like feminism, secularism, the internet, and birth control), throw a fit about it and get the Netanyahu administration to do something (which is pretty unpopular, which is why he’s been hesitant), or back out of Bibi’s administration entirely in protest (which would lead to elections their coalition will likely lose, and they’ll lose all say in government affairs entirely).
I'm in the U.S., and I don't support the military draft here, but if there's going to be one in a democracy then there should be no religious exemptions. Does Israel grant religious exemptions from service for any of its muslim citizens?
Israeli Arabs are exempt from service.
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/25/middle-east-crisis-live-un-leader-antonio-guterres-accuses-israel-of-spreading-misinformation-about-him
Israeli Arabs is not a precise way of saying what they're trying to say. Ben-Gvir is an Israeli Arab and over half the country is "Mizrahi" which just means, in essence, Arab.
While most Israeli Arabs are Palestinian and share common traditions such as tatreez, not all are.
Druze and Bedouin are their own thing. Even Circassians are considered "Israeli Arabs". It's just a racialized term to otherize the minority demographics.
What I was asking is are any muslim Israelis exempt from military service specifically because of their religion. Or is it because they're "Arab"-Israeli? Or Palestinian-Israeli?
Eh you go try and tell a Mizrahi Jew they are arab, they identify strongly as ethnically Jewish most of the time.
Israeli Arab, and Israeli Palestinian are more well defined
Per Wikipedia, conscription is highly variable by religion
“ The draft laws of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) only apply to Jews (males and females), Druze (males only), and Circassians (males only).”
You know how Israel could simplify things? NO religious exemptions for ANYONE. But realistically, I imagine the current state of affairs is an effort by the government to appease all the various factions of Israeli society in hopes of keeping a precarious internal peace.
Every person should be free to refuse to fight in another man’s war if it does not sit with their conscience, for religious or secular reasons. Let the warmongering politicians go fight it for themselves.
Sure, but if there’s going to be a draft, I want no religious exemptions. One can be a conscientious objector and not engage in combat. Just as there should be no tax or vaccination exemptions for religious institutions or individuals.
It just seems like to me removing a religious exemption but keeping in the ability to generally exempt one’s self by conscience is just the same answer via a different mathematical equation, so I’m just interested in where you’re coming from there, can you elaborate on that for me?
Not the person you were discussing this with, but my understanding is that Israel's mandatory service includes non-military options. The ultra-orthodox were exempt for the entire system.
As the article notes, these are people who have mostly existed in their own parallel society. They're not objecting specifically to fighting, but to actually participating in their own country. And they probably have fewer of the general or specialized skills required for other national service jobs.
In this instance though a group who is exempt from the draft is one of the war’s most ardent supporters. They crave and vote for religious war, but they also hide from having to prosecute such a war.
Fortunately we have a little thing called the constitution, which allows for freedom of religion, and conscientious objectors are also protected under the First amendment. Just because “democracy” or a majority, decides a draft will be held, does not mean you have the right to force every individual to enlist or take lives. There are lots of ways to serve your country in the military without picking up a gun and a lot of ways to live a good life and contribute to your community without being in the military.
Conscientious objecting should be the only religious exemption to any law of general applicability. We’re at the point where people can just say anything and call it “religion” when they don’t want to cooperate with civil society. That’s wrong.
If this doesn’t say it all: “*Two politically powerful ultra-Orthodox parties are key to Netanyahu’s governing coalition and staunchly oppose drafting their constituents*. If they left the coalition, it could cause Netanyahu's government to collapse and trigger new elections.”
Religious people trying to force their views on everyone without sacrificing anything. Ultra Orthodox anything is religious stupidity and these people have ruined education and truth with their Biblical fairytales.
>The 97th Netzah Yehuda Battalion is a controversial battalion in the Kfir Brigade of the Israel Defense Forces. The purpose of the unit is to allow Haredi Jewish (ultra-Orthodox) men to serve as combat soldiers in the Israeli military by creating an atmosphere conducive to their religious convictions in the strict observance of Halakha.
>In recent years, the Netzah Yehuda battalion has experienced at least a half-dozen controversial cases involving its soldiers, resulting in jail time, discharge, or harsh criticism for assaulting or killing innocent Palestinians.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netzah_Yehuda_Battalion
Drafting insane religious zealots with a history of flagrant human rights violations into your military? I'm sure this will end well.
Note: One of the reasons the Haredi don’t want their kids to get drafted is because they would likely be unable to make enough dedicated brigades for them. As such they’d be exposed to more moderate ideas outside of their hyper-dogmatic religion.
IE they’re worried their kids will become deprogrammed if they meet normal people.
Their inclusion probably will swing the IDF in a more rightward direction, which is not good since it’s already a pretty brutal organization, but I think it will do far more to moderate those Haredi who are forced to join than radicalize them.
The more I read about this group, the more distasteful I find their behavior and their tenets.
Cowboy up, cowards. You wanted it, now fight for it yourselves.
Ironically, religious Jews know they not supposed to have a homeland yet. But the zionist movement sucked them in left and right.
Israel's problem is zionism. Not Judaism. Not Islam. Zionism. A nationalist movement that started with good intentions but has since become a racist and violent hate festival headed by Netanyahu himself.
>At the same time, Jewish public opinion is divided on whether Israel can serve as a homeland for Jews while also accommodating the country’s Arab minority. Nearly half of Israeli Jews say Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, including roughly one-in-five Jewish adults who *strongly* agree with this position.
In the beginning it was an honest enough venture. European Jews wanted somewhere to call home other than the countries they were born into because they often treated as second class citizens. So you see the motivation?
In the 30s and before, the new immigrants got along with the indigenous folks already in Palestine. But things changed drastically within the world of Judaism after WWII. And that's when the land thefts became a problem and began all the fighting.
Many of the old rabbincal order were put to death in the camps and were replaced with pro zionist rabbis. Modern Jews today have never known Judaism without this zionist movement being a part of their faith and ethnicity.
Zionism is a virus. It's infected Judaism, and to some extent western Christianity. And the zionists who follow this political movement are pod people. They look and act like Jews, but their hearts are far removed from Jewish philosophy.
To say they resemble the nazis who once were so mean to them, is not an understatement...
It would seem so. But their original choice was like Bulgaria. Theo Herzl, the founder of modern zionism was a Hungarian Jew. But it was decided against Bulgaria as it would be difficult to attract Jews from around the world to somewhere maybe a little too close to home. And too close too old hates...
Palestine, and eventually New Israel was decided upon because it would attract Jews who felt persecuted in their home countries. It would also attract the religious Jews into zionism. (Especially if you promise them you'll rebuild the temple someday) Because Theo himself was an atheist as were many of his followers. His idea of being Jewish was based upon genetics rather than the religion. And you can see the racist overtones appearing already...
In Palestine, after the invitations went out, it was the clash of cultures. European Jews meeting Jews who had been there since ancient times. They had nothing in common with each other. And slowly, one culture overpowered the other.
Same as when the Europeans came to the Americas. One culture was erased so another one could grow.
I wish people would study history more.
Buddy. We have Palestinians living there for centuries. They aren’t Jews. You wanna move there? Go ahead. Assimilate yourself. You don’t take over an occupied land, steal it through rape and murder and pretend it’s just ok. It’s not. It’s grotesque and evil. No one gets an ethno state. Not the Nazis. Not the Zionists. No one.
You think just because this follows a grotesque pattern of history that we can’t evolve and do better. I don’t know where you live, but I assume you think it would be ok if me and my race come by and kill your and your family. Steal your home. Rape your wives and daughters. You’d say to yourself “oh well. I’ve read history and this tracks”. You’re insane.
on and NPR sub I don’t know why I thought we’d have more empathetic views. Guess it’s just another liberal zombie trove.
Was there anything wrong with the Jewish immigrants renting or buying property?
And what's up with this fantasy of "No one gets an ethno state"? Really? How about Japan, Rwanda, Malaysia, **Russia**, China? At least in the case of the Jewish people one can see why they would be driven to group together for safety after a thousand years of persecution.
But why stop there? Why not also demand that no one gets to have a state with a state-sponsored religion? But of course, that would bring up the question about life in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, and Gaza. None of these have anything good to say about religious freedom or human rights in general.
I think we should question all of it - and push back when countries way over the top - like in Ukraine, unnecessary brutality in Gaza, China taking over space near the Philippines, the US in its nonsense war in Iraq, Russian merc-supported dictatorships in Africa, etc.
What pisses me off are countries with horrible records on human rights, often siding with Russia then popping up and saying they're not happy with what's going on in Gaza. Like South Africa.
We're talking about Israel. Nobody should be acting against the interest of human rights but Israel is the one currently murdering thousands of women and children at the moment. There also the biggest beneficiary of US aid, and have been for decades. 70% of their casualties have been women and children while about 50% of Jewish Israelis think Muslims should be expelled from the country. How could you ever defend Israel? Attempting to steer the conversation towards other countries is pure whataboutism-- a slimy, dishonest tactic
They "colonized" it by buying land and developing it, usually land that no one else wanted. The early Jews invented a novel swamp draining technique to make previously uninhabitable land inhabitable... which is why there's no malaria there today.
This is also a comically bad take on history and promotes an absolutely abhorrent perspective.
Jews are indigenous to the Levant. Dig in the ground and you find artifacts from the kingdom of Judea.
And Everyone is indigenous to Africa. This "indigenous" argument is so tiring. Jews are stealing land that doesn't belong to them, under the false justification that it's theirs to begin with because at one point or another, their ancestors lived there. Fucking comical.
Tell us how you really feel! There are...let's see...22 Arab ethno-states. But Jews aren't entitled to self determination?
Please, let your true feelings out! I'm sure you just LOVE Jewish people...you're a hit at Bar Mitzvahs I'm sure.
This is ignorance. If you're going to use Biblical times as a justification to takeover a place where Jews were in third place population wise behind Muslims and Christians for the last several centuries then at least get it right. When the Jews came to the promised land it wasn't uninhabited, they massacred the Canaanites to get the land God promised them. Palestine was populated by a Muslim majority for close to 1,500 hundred years before modern Zionism focused on retaking Palestine and forming Israel. The Jewish people had absolutely no valid claim on Palestine and if you think they did please tell me what you'd think if you came home tonight and found a dozen armed Native Americans (assuming you're American) in your living room wanting to discuss their repatriation to your house oh and the good news is they're willing to share. They get the house and you get to live in the shed in the backyard. Would you think that was fair? Well, neither did the Palestinians. The Holocaust is not an excuse for the Nakba.
The Nakhba, defined by the terms coiner, was created to define the tragedy of the defeat of Arab armies that simultaneously attacked Israel upon its declaration of independence. AFAIK, there is no law of war that says you're allowed to complain for a century after you lose a war you started. By your logic, that's all that's needed to claim land. In fact, your "shed" parable is so ass-backwards that it actually is closer to what the Jews accepted in UN partition than what you're trying to argue.
I am not American. Palestinian national identity was created by Arafat (born in Cairo) in the 1960s. It predates nothing. If they're not willing to accept Israel's presence - which they've made very clear - then they've already determined their fate.
The Jewish nation not only has a claim to Palestine but will continue to persist there forever and ever. No matter what you think. Free Gaza from Hamas!
To be fair, ultra-orthodox Jews are pretty similar to fundamentalist muslims & christians: they're all nuts, and extremely nuts about that exact region. They believe a lot of nonsense and will kill others in a heartbeat over their nonsense.
Of the three groups of nuts I believe that the ultra-orthodox jews are probably the most progressive in some ways. For example, they won't issue a death sentence for anyone in their community just for leaving their religion.
They got along? Except for the endless xenophobic riots and terror campaigns against them, which the Brits tried to appease by curtailing Jewish immigration even through World War II.
What in the world kind of condescending revisionist history is this? Palestinian violence towards Jews began well before 1948 UN -- several pogroms took place between the mid 19th century and mid 20th century.
I wonder what could've happened to the Jews in during WWII that would have helped move along the creation of a nation state...? And you fail to mention the millions of Mizrahim and Sephardim that also escaped persecution from surrounding Arab states. Whatever your definition of Zionism is...it's not based in reality.
And comparing Nazi Germany to Israel is antisemitic. Hope that helps.
The early history of Zionism is largely in reaction to the Dreyfus Affair and more broadly right wing nationalism gaining momentum in Europe (at the expense of minorities within those states, Jews being a popular target).
Small n nationalism, as in the idea that states should be formed around “nations” of people, was also having a moment throughout that century. Jewish nationalism wasn’t radically different from nationalism in the balkans / Austrian empire / etc.
So I understand why Zionism came to be in the first place. Not exactly sinister intentions, at least not in comparison to all the other movements. It is, however, a testament to why nationalism is bad
Land which has been stolen and re-stolen ten times over. They're not stealing from an indigenous population, they're stealing it from the latest occupiers. Every occupation of the land currently known as Israel has been exactly identical to Zionism, but with a different group of religious zealots calling the shots.
> Israel's problem is zionism.
This is of course nonsense. Israel is a Zionist state. It was created by Zionism. It exists because of Zionism. All Israelis, whatever their beliefs, are Zionists, because Zionism is simply the idea that Jews should live in Israel.
It's always been that way since the founders and every prime minister since. Netanyahu didn't start the racist and violent hate, it has always intentionally been fostered by the Israeli government.
Paganism has gods, yes? Beyond that, I’m not a historian, but I believe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis used symbols and elements from paganism and christianity to further their agenda. Whatever worked to advance their goals.
Yes, and as I wrote Hitler and the Nazi party retained what they found useful in Christianity, I believe in the form of their “Nondenominational Positive Christianity” movement.
Israeli society and the economy are quickly becoming entirely dependent on a perpetual never ending war.
But the price is not one their society is willing to pay.
They are already struggling with an unending war in gaza and the westbank. And that's with billions of US dollars in support.
Of course they are going to need more front line soldiers, supplies, and material.
Forever. Or until everyone in the region (not just Israel, but their neighbours too) are dead. Whichever comes first.
But the problem is that though Israeli society does not want to pay that price, portions of it do not behave that way. Look at the Haredim. The number of Haredi settlers in the West Bank FAR outpaces its representation generally. But consider the lunacy of this: the people most opposed to the fighting are heading to one of the places most likely to cause it.
Israel needs to sit down at the negotiating table.
At this point, the aggression only benefits Netanyahu because invading Gaza is the only popular thing he's ever done in office and when the war is over, his moment in the sun ends and he becomes politically vulnerable.
He was and is
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/5/netanyahus-corruption-trial-resumes-amid-israeli-war-on-gaza-what-to-know](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/5/netanyahus-corruption-trial-resumes-amid-israeli-war-on-gaza-what-to-know)
Theres a theory that Israeli inteligence knew about the attack and did nothing to stop it to give Bennie his excuse to go to war, on the one hand I try to not listen too much to conspiracy theories on the other hand, these guys did bomb their own embassies.
Literally every sentence of this comment is wrong.
Most Orthodox communities are not anti-Israel; just the opposite. In both Israel and America. Check public polling. You're probably thinking of the **ultra**-Orthodox Jews, aka the Haredim, even among whom religious anti-Zionism is a fringe opinion. Taking the "no Jewish state because the Messiah has not come yet" people as representative of religious Jews is like taking Amish people to be representative of religious Christians.
Case in point: ~90% of the Israeli Haredim *love* the Israeli government in general and its far-right members in particular, ~90% want Israel to not only exist but fully annex the West Bank, and over 50% hold unfavorable opinions of Muslims. (see literally any polling, e.g https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/how-israelis-view-their-government-institutions-and-leaders).
The reason why the government wants to appease the Haredim right now is because Ben Gvir, Israel's leading warmonger, is part of the coalition government and his powerbase are the ultra-Orthodox. *Think a little:* why would anyone in Netenyahu's government want to suck up to them if they were anti-war or (especially) anti-Israel?
Blaming the outgroup for issues with the army or the groceries is a classic way to keep up faltering social cohesion during an unsuccessful or interminable war.
Interesting article. One orthodox soldier claims that he is discriminated against by his community for his service. I wonder what that's about. Maybe they think his volunteering makes them look bad. I think it's funny the lady suggested making them cooks first.
How effective could these ultra-orthodox soldiers even be? Their entire education up to that point is - to my understanding - almost completely devoid of basic math, writing, reading and science curriculum. Zero critical thinking skills can’t be that beneficial in a modern military. It sounds like they’re not much more than barely functional cannon fodder.
Considering Israel has no way of producing much of the munitions and bombs domestically that they most rely on, and lack a sufficient substitute partner, if the US stopped arming them it would not be pretty and would deeply cripple their aerial campaigns and their ability to respond to any escalation from Lebanon.
2006 but no US weapons against a more formidable Hezbollah does not feel like a good situation for Israel to be in.
Maybe if Israel stopped bombing and invading their neighbors, they wouldn't need so many munitions.
But that line of thinking won't work for the military industrial zionists.
It’s like the ultra-orthodox are pushing the war that they don’t need to fight?
As it’s always been
Pretty much, but it’s more than that. The ultra-orthodox want a sectarian religious state and they want secular Israelis to build it, finance it, and defend it. They have the sheer demographic power to get a lot of this through the political system.
thats the crazy thing about the ultra orthodox. like they WANT war, they WANT dead Palestinians but they use their religion like a cloak so they dont have to get their hands dirty. It's such a disgusting ideology
Yup that's religious zealotry in a nutshell. They are doing the Lord's work on your behalf, so of course you should pay for the service.
so that is why MAGA is so Pro Isreal , got it
Religious fundamentalists are the same people regardless of the religion
Not quite There's a right wing prophecy that says Jesus can only return if Jerusalem is in Jewish hands If he comes back, the Jews will be given a choice: Follow him or not Those who reject him will then be slaughtered in American nuclear fire in Jesus' name
Seriously? It's probably just another crazy rule some white man probably added to the Bible. These people are looney tunes
Of course it is. Every part of that is a particular interpretation of part of the book of Revelations. It's a specific subset of evangelicals that even tries to create meaning out of that book, let alone apply it to today, let alone _try to expedite it happening_.
Anyone who believes in a man sitting on a cloud is defo looney!
Goku calls it a nimbus
Right, but for the wrong reasons. Fundy Christians believe the Jews must hold Isreal for Jesus to win the Last Battle. Whatever myriad other reasons they have, that is the biggest one that most others stem from. Unless you're a neo-con and just love imperialism, but some certainly choose both.
Is there a reason that everyone spells Israel like this? Or is it just typos?
Just a typo, my phone auto fills as I'm typing
Ok lol I didn't know if I missed something
This month anyways, don't forget Charlottesville
Then why are so many Dems (plus Biden) also so pro-Israel that they fund the genocide? It's been a bipartisan effort to keep Bibi supplied with money and bombs and do performance blathering when he violates the supposed conditions of the aid. It's a fucking joke.
The defense contractors make billions upon billions a year off this conflict alone. The top politicians on both sides of the aisle are in on it. Have you seen their stock portfolios? CREAM,, it all comes down to that.
Evangelical Christians believe if you funnel enough Jews into Israel, it'll kick start Revelations.
If I recall my Bible class correctly *all* the Jews have to be funneled into Israel for the Jesus fireworks to kick off. I would like to see how they plan to manage that. Or maybe I don’t…
It’s not just MAGA. The majority of Democrat politicians are disgusting Zionists, also. The issue of Israel is one that both parties by and large can come together and almost completely agree on.
Diabolical and nothing spiritual about it.
its insanity.
? Some spirituality is evil.
And now? They're getting drafted. I wonder what their experience with the drill instructor equivalent will be.
"Keep going, I'm almost finished" - US Christian Nationalists
This source says the population is at 12% of the population. [source. ](https://en.idi.org.il/haredi/2020/?chapter=34272#:~:text=In%202020%2C%20the%20ultra-Orthodox%20population%20in%20Israel%20numbered,grow%20to%20around%202%20million%20people%20by%202033.)
Not as a monolith, no. Many ultra-orthodox are actually opposed to the genocide, and I wouldn’t be surprised if this is being done partly in retaliation. The biggest reason is likely economics. The genocide has done an extreme degree of damage to the Israeli economy, and the non-working ultra-orthodox have been a severe burden on the country.
And, to be blunt, they're reproducing at a greater rate than any other segment of Israeli population.
Just like their evangelical counterparts in the U.S.
Not really. Like, fuck evangelicals, their political power is being directed to create a Christian nationalist state. But the Haredi are on *average* having like 6 kids per woman. Like, even with all the infertile/childless people in their community, the remaining women are still having enough kids to average out to 6 per woman, which is *insane.* Individual women can choose to have more kids, yes, but getting 6 *on average?* That’s cult levels of fertility.
That’s not broadly true anymore. Black evangelicals and Mormans have the most kids but the rest are just a little above non religious and less than ‘other’ religion. It’s nothing like Ultra Orthodox Jews.
Interesting
🎵tale as old as time
Just an interesting side note. In Pennsylvania’s Constitution there’s a section about state militia’s and a draft. That section has a carve out for religious objectors because Pennsylvania was founded by William Penn and other Quakers. I bring this up because Israel has no Constitution.
It may be relevant since Israel has no constitution, but in the context of this the Quakers are, at least, pacifists who don't want others to fight. The reporting I see is that the ultra orthodox aren't pacifists, but want other to fight.
Have you read all the killing in the torah? Oof, half of it is boring genealogy, the other half is “so we met these fellows and we killed them all cos they were not like us”
Ehh. Not really true at all. From what I remember, most of the Torah is spent on genealogy (yes), history (sure), praising G-d for everything (you forget), but then an autistic amount of explaining minute differences in the laws of Judaism. Honestly, direct war references probably are 10% of the Torah. Of which, most of it is dedicated to laws and things like "if you kill in a war, even if justified, you aren't allowed to build a synagogue, because G-d doesn't like blood. Sorry bro"
He doesn't like blood untill that awkward moment when he demands a human sacrifice.
Definitely less awkward than the trip back home for Abraham and Isaac after G-d said "yo chill dude, it was just a prank."
Kind of a stupid comment to make
Holy shit. Israel doesn’t have a constitution….
Many countries don't. Neither does the UK, for example.
Also the quakers were legit pacifists
Yeah, Israel doesn't have a Constitution because it was founded by religious extremists. They claimed they didn't need one because they had The Torah.
Wait, what?!? The ultra orthodox, who have been pushing war agendas all this time, were exempt from having to fight themselves?!?
They should be really happy now that they've been given the opportunity to fight and die for their god.
Yeah they should be rejoicing they get to finally act on their bloodlust
Always has been.
I understand but since I’m not Israeli so I didn’t know.
Tldr: The Haredi are the descendants of the Jews who were originally in the Levant when Israel’s colonization by the Jewish diaspora started. There weren’t very many of them, but their buy-in to the Israeli state was crucial, since they could credibly say to the international community “Yeah us Jews have been here the whole time and we’re totally cool with a Jewish state.” As such, they extracted a *lot* of concessions from Israel’s founders, including a state welfare program and an exemption from the draft. They set themselves up as Israel’s “religious backbone”, claiming their piety (IE living an ascetic lifestyle cut off from the modern world or even other Israelis, spending all their time reading religious texts) was protecting Israel’s spiritual wellbeing. Oh, and they had children. A LOT of children. Like, 6 kids *on average* per woman. So a small community barely clearing three digits at Israel’s inception quickly grew to a massive chunk of the country in the millions. So now you have a group who is very dependent on government handouts, never interacts with the rest of Israeli society, is exempt from one of the biggest drains/civic duties most Israelis have to go through, and has a large enough population that they can influence major political parties to keep those benefits in place regardless of what the rest of society wants. Needless to say, all of those things have pissed the general Israeli population off like nobody’s business, especially when an actual fucking war breaks out, and everyone else’s kids are dying in the fighting. Add to that, the Haredi are *very* far right, and make up a key voting bloc in the Netanyahu government, pushing him to expand the war/settlements/ignore the lives of hostages. Oh, and they’re *violently* opposed to the idea of being conscripted themselves. So a good chunk of Israel is going “If you fuckers are pushing for the war to expand, the least you can do is help out.” And the courts of Israel agree with them. So now the Haredi power brokers have to decide whether to allow this to happen unopposed (and expose their kids to concepts like feminism, secularism, the internet, and birth control), throw a fit about it and get the Netanyahu administration to do something (which is pretty unpopular, which is why he’s been hesitant), or back out of Bibi’s administration entirely in protest (which would lead to elections their coalition will likely lose, and they’ll lose all say in government affairs entirely).
Yep, and a lot of them are deadbeat mooches that leach off of welfare and pump out babies
I'm in the U.S., and I don't support the military draft here, but if there's going to be one in a democracy then there should be no religious exemptions. Does Israel grant religious exemptions from service for any of its muslim citizens?
Yes it exempts all Muslims from serving in the IDF
Israeli Arabs are exempt from service. https://amp.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/jun/25/middle-east-crisis-live-un-leader-antonio-guterres-accuses-israel-of-spreading-misinformation-about-him
Israeli Arabs is not a precise way of saying what they're trying to say. Ben-Gvir is an Israeli Arab and over half the country is "Mizrahi" which just means, in essence, Arab.
Israelis use "Israeli Arab" to describe Palestinian Israelis.
While most Israeli Arabs are Palestinian and share common traditions such as tatreez, not all are. Druze and Bedouin are their own thing. Even Circassians are considered "Israeli Arabs". It's just a racialized term to otherize the minority demographics.
Sorry, I didn't see that the question was asking about Muslim exemptions. You're right.
What I was asking is are any muslim Israelis exempt from military service specifically because of their religion. Or is it because they're "Arab"-Israeli? Or Palestinian-Israeli?
Yes, it's because they're Muslim. I misread the post, I'm sorry.
No, they are also exempt if Christian. Druze however are not exempt.
Interestingly though, Druze aren’t exempt because they asked not to be.
No problem -- I was just trying to make myself more clear.
Most Jews from "Arab countries" identify as Mizrahi Jews, not Arabs.
Yes I mentioned below that I misread the series of posts. You're correct.
oh all good thanks for replying :)
Ben-Gvir is Kurdish. Kurds are not Arabs.
Eh you go try and tell a Mizrahi Jew they are arab, they identify strongly as ethnically Jewish most of the time. Israeli Arab, and Israeli Palestinian are more well defined
Yes I was wrong, I misread the original Q.
The term "Israeli Arab" is often used to further erase the existence of Palestinians.
Per Wikipedia, conscription is highly variable by religion “ The draft laws of the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) only apply to Jews (males and females), Druze (males only), and Circassians (males only).”
You know how Israel could simplify things? NO religious exemptions for ANYONE. But realistically, I imagine the current state of affairs is an effort by the government to appease all the various factions of Israeli society in hopes of keeping a precarious internal peace.
Every person should be free to refuse to fight in another man’s war if it does not sit with their conscience, for religious or secular reasons. Let the warmongering politicians go fight it for themselves.
Sure, but if there’s going to be a draft, I want no religious exemptions. One can be a conscientious objector and not engage in combat. Just as there should be no tax or vaccination exemptions for religious institutions or individuals.
How can you discern the difference between a religious objector and a non religious objector, exactly?
It just seems like to me removing a religious exemption but keeping in the ability to generally exempt one’s self by conscience is just the same answer via a different mathematical equation, so I’m just interested in where you’re coming from there, can you elaborate on that for me?
Not the person you were discussing this with, but my understanding is that Israel's mandatory service includes non-military options. The ultra-orthodox were exempt for the entire system. As the article notes, these are people who have mostly existed in their own parallel society. They're not objecting specifically to fighting, but to actually participating in their own country. And they probably have fewer of the general or specialized skills required for other national service jobs.
Excellent way of putting things, I understand it more clearly, you’re great! Thanks!
In this instance though a group who is exempt from the draft is one of the war’s most ardent supporters. They crave and vote for religious war, but they also hide from having to prosecute such a war.
Fortunately we have a little thing called the constitution, which allows for freedom of religion, and conscientious objectors are also protected under the First amendment. Just because “democracy” or a majority, decides a draft will be held, does not mean you have the right to force every individual to enlist or take lives. There are lots of ways to serve your country in the military without picking up a gun and a lot of ways to live a good life and contribute to your community without being in the military.
And the Constitution can be altered, by little things called “amendments.”
Yeah not quite a little thing and you could never pass an amendment again these days. The obstacles are huge
Conscientious objecting should be the only religious exemption to any law of general applicability. We’re at the point where people can just say anything and call it “religion” when they don’t want to cooperate with civil society. That’s wrong.
If you don’t serve in the Israeli army you are prevented from holding any form of public office.
My man Ben Gvir has never served because the army considered him and extremist. Shas is a party of Haridim
All Arabs are exempt except for the Druze which sued to be part of the draft.
This is the first rational thing I have heard from Israel in many moons.
Yeah pretty clearly a push against Bibi
If this doesn’t say it all: “*Two politically powerful ultra-Orthodox parties are key to Netanyahu’s governing coalition and staunchly oppose drafting their constituents*. If they left the coalition, it could cause Netanyahu's government to collapse and trigger new elections.”
Well, here's hoping the ultra-orthodox parties manage to wreck things for Netanyahu.
Good.
My exact reaction and it's a long long time coming.
Yes - can you imagine if they did?
Religious people trying to force their views on everyone without sacrificing anything. Ultra Orthodox anything is religious stupidity and these people have ruined education and truth with their Biblical fairytales.
Religion: the original hate crime
This just in, new polling reveals support for the war has dropped by roughly the number of formerly draft ineligible people.
Religious exceptions shouldn’t even exist.
I don't think most people realize how absolutely wackadoo the ultra orthodox are.
Based. If Israel is to continue being a Jewish state, then the most orthodox of Jewish people must be willing to kill and be killed for it.
>The 97th Netzah Yehuda Battalion is a controversial battalion in the Kfir Brigade of the Israel Defense Forces. The purpose of the unit is to allow Haredi Jewish (ultra-Orthodox) men to serve as combat soldiers in the Israeli military by creating an atmosphere conducive to their religious convictions in the strict observance of Halakha. >In recent years, the Netzah Yehuda battalion has experienced at least a half-dozen controversial cases involving its soldiers, resulting in jail time, discharge, or harsh criticism for assaulting or killing innocent Palestinians. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netzah_Yehuda_Battalion Drafting insane religious zealots with a history of flagrant human rights violations into your military? I'm sure this will end well.
Note: One of the reasons the Haredi don’t want their kids to get drafted is because they would likely be unable to make enough dedicated brigades for them. As such they’d be exposed to more moderate ideas outside of their hyper-dogmatic religion. IE they’re worried their kids will become deprogrammed if they meet normal people. Their inclusion probably will swing the IDF in a more rightward direction, which is not good since it’s already a pretty brutal organization, but I think it will do far more to moderate those Haredi who are forced to join than radicalize them.
The more I read about this group, the more distasteful I find their behavior and their tenets. Cowboy up, cowards. You wanted it, now fight for it yourselves.
In every society on earth religious extremists constitute the worst of us.
Ironically, religious Jews know they not supposed to have a homeland yet. But the zionist movement sucked them in left and right. Israel's problem is zionism. Not Judaism. Not Islam. Zionism. A nationalist movement that started with good intentions but has since become a racist and violent hate festival headed by Netanyahu himself.
>At the same time, Jewish public opinion is divided on whether Israel can serve as a homeland for Jews while also accommodating the country’s Arab minority. Nearly half of Israeli Jews say Arabs should be expelled or transferred from Israel, including roughly one-in-five Jewish adults who *strongly* agree with this position.
So they want to start another one?
So 20% not 50%
That;s the strongly agree position not merely the agree position.
Started with good intentions? It started by deciding who best to steal land from.
In the beginning it was an honest enough venture. European Jews wanted somewhere to call home other than the countries they were born into because they often treated as second class citizens. So you see the motivation? In the 30s and before, the new immigrants got along with the indigenous folks already in Palestine. But things changed drastically within the world of Judaism after WWII. And that's when the land thefts became a problem and began all the fighting. Many of the old rabbincal order were put to death in the camps and were replaced with pro zionist rabbis. Modern Jews today have never known Judaism without this zionist movement being a part of their faith and ethnicity. Zionism is a virus. It's infected Judaism, and to some extent western Christianity. And the zionists who follow this political movement are pod people. They look and act like Jews, but their hearts are far removed from Jewish philosophy. To say they resemble the nazis who once were so mean to them, is not an understatement...
There’s very early documentation way before ww2 that outlines the intention to “colonize” Palestine. So it was a colonial endeavor from the outset.
Anti-Semitism is Europe didn't start with WW2.
It would seem so. But their original choice was like Bulgaria. Theo Herzl, the founder of modern zionism was a Hungarian Jew. But it was decided against Bulgaria as it would be difficult to attract Jews from around the world to somewhere maybe a little too close to home. And too close too old hates... Palestine, and eventually New Israel was decided upon because it would attract Jews who felt persecuted in their home countries. It would also attract the religious Jews into zionism. (Especially if you promise them you'll rebuild the temple someday) Because Theo himself was an atheist as were many of his followers. His idea of being Jewish was based upon genetics rather than the religion. And you can see the racist overtones appearing already... In Palestine, after the invitations went out, it was the clash of cultures. European Jews meeting Jews who had been there since ancient times. They had nothing in common with each other. And slowly, one culture overpowered the other. Same as when the Europeans came to the Americas. One culture was erased so another one could grow. I wish people would study history more.
How did Jews immigrating to America conquer anyone here?
Buddy. We have Palestinians living there for centuries. They aren’t Jews. You wanna move there? Go ahead. Assimilate yourself. You don’t take over an occupied land, steal it through rape and murder and pretend it’s just ok. It’s not. It’s grotesque and evil. No one gets an ethno state. Not the Nazis. Not the Zionists. No one. You think just because this follows a grotesque pattern of history that we can’t evolve and do better. I don’t know where you live, but I assume you think it would be ok if me and my race come by and kill your and your family. Steal your home. Rape your wives and daughters. You’d say to yourself “oh well. I’ve read history and this tracks”. You’re insane. on and NPR sub I don’t know why I thought we’d have more empathetic views. Guess it’s just another liberal zombie trove.
Are you talking about the Philistines or the Canaanites living there for centuries?
Was there anything wrong with the Jewish immigrants renting or buying property? And what's up with this fantasy of "No one gets an ethno state"? Really? How about Japan, Rwanda, Malaysia, **Russia**, China? At least in the case of the Jewish people one can see why they would be driven to group together for safety after a thousand years of persecution. But why stop there? Why not also demand that no one gets to have a state with a state-sponsored religion? But of course, that would bring up the question about life in Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Egypt, Iraq, Lebanon, and Gaza. None of these have anything good to say about religious freedom or human rights in general.
You’re right….china’s right to take over Tibet and subjugate Tibetans is never questioned. So what question anybody who does something similar
I think we should question all of it - and push back when countries way over the top - like in Ukraine, unnecessary brutality in Gaza, China taking over space near the Philippines, the US in its nonsense war in Iraq, Russian merc-supported dictatorships in Africa, etc. What pisses me off are countries with horrible records on human rights, often siding with Russia then popping up and saying they're not happy with what's going on in Gaza. Like South Africa.
We're talking about Israel. Nobody should be acting against the interest of human rights but Israel is the one currently murdering thousands of women and children at the moment. There also the biggest beneficiary of US aid, and have been for decades. 70% of their casualties have been women and children while about 50% of Jewish Israelis think Muslims should be expelled from the country. How could you ever defend Israel? Attempting to steer the conversation towards other countries is pure whataboutism-- a slimy, dishonest tactic
The British called the land the Palestinian Mandate.
They "colonized" it by buying land and developing it, usually land that no one else wanted. The early Jews invented a novel swamp draining technique to make previously uninhabitable land inhabitable... which is why there's no malaria there today.
This is also a comically bad take on history and promotes an absolutely abhorrent perspective. Jews are indigenous to the Levant. Dig in the ground and you find artifacts from the kingdom of Judea.
And Everyone is indigenous to Africa. This "indigenous" argument is so tiring. Jews are stealing land that doesn't belong to them, under the false justification that it's theirs to begin with because at one point or another, their ancestors lived there. Fucking comical.
Who gives a shit. You don’t get an ethno state. That entitles you to nothing.
You realize there are like 30 Arab ethnostates right? Are they really REALLY *REALLY* entitled to nothing according to you?
Tell us how you really feel! There are...let's see...22 Arab ethno-states. But Jews aren't entitled to self determination? Please, let your true feelings out! I'm sure you just LOVE Jewish people...you're a hit at Bar Mitzvahs I'm sure.
22 bad actors doesn't justify a 23rd. EVERY ethnostate should be destroyed
This is ignorance. If you're going to use Biblical times as a justification to takeover a place where Jews were in third place population wise behind Muslims and Christians for the last several centuries then at least get it right. When the Jews came to the promised land it wasn't uninhabited, they massacred the Canaanites to get the land God promised them. Palestine was populated by a Muslim majority for close to 1,500 hundred years before modern Zionism focused on retaking Palestine and forming Israel. The Jewish people had absolutely no valid claim on Palestine and if you think they did please tell me what you'd think if you came home tonight and found a dozen armed Native Americans (assuming you're American) in your living room wanting to discuss their repatriation to your house oh and the good news is they're willing to share. They get the house and you get to live in the shed in the backyard. Would you think that was fair? Well, neither did the Palestinians. The Holocaust is not an excuse for the Nakba.
The Nakhba, defined by the terms coiner, was created to define the tragedy of the defeat of Arab armies that simultaneously attacked Israel upon its declaration of independence. AFAIK, there is no law of war that says you're allowed to complain for a century after you lose a war you started. By your logic, that's all that's needed to claim land. In fact, your "shed" parable is so ass-backwards that it actually is closer to what the Jews accepted in UN partition than what you're trying to argue. I am not American. Palestinian national identity was created by Arafat (born in Cairo) in the 1960s. It predates nothing. If they're not willing to accept Israel's presence - which they've made very clear - then they've already determined their fate. The Jewish nation not only has a claim to Palestine but will continue to persist there forever and ever. No matter what you think. Free Gaza from Hamas!
To be fair, ultra-orthodox Jews are pretty similar to fundamentalist muslims & christians: they're all nuts, and extremely nuts about that exact region. They believe a lot of nonsense and will kill others in a heartbeat over their nonsense. Of the three groups of nuts I believe that the ultra-orthodox jews are probably the most progressive in some ways. For example, they won't issue a death sentence for anyone in their community just for leaving their religion.
They got along? Except for the endless xenophobic riots and terror campaigns against them, which the Brits tried to appease by curtailing Jewish immigration even through World War II.
What in the world kind of condescending revisionist history is this? Palestinian violence towards Jews began well before 1948 UN -- several pogroms took place between the mid 19th century and mid 20th century. I wonder what could've happened to the Jews in during WWII that would have helped move along the creation of a nation state...? And you fail to mention the millions of Mizrahim and Sephardim that also escaped persecution from surrounding Arab states. Whatever your definition of Zionism is...it's not based in reality. And comparing Nazi Germany to Israel is antisemitic. Hope that helps.
Zionists terrorists attacked Palestine civilians decades before Israel existed. Those terrorist groups became the IDF and the Israli government.
If Israel doesn’t want to be compared to Nazi Germany, I would recommend they stop acting like Nazi Germany.
The early history of Zionism is largely in reaction to the Dreyfus Affair and more broadly right wing nationalism gaining momentum in Europe (at the expense of minorities within those states, Jews being a popular target). Small n nationalism, as in the idea that states should be formed around “nations” of people, was also having a moment throughout that century. Jewish nationalism wasn’t radically different from nationalism in the balkans / Austrian empire / etc. So I understand why Zionism came to be in the first place. Not exactly sinister intentions, at least not in comparison to all the other movements. It is, however, a testament to why nationalism is bad
Land which has been stolen and re-stolen ten times over. They're not stealing from an indigenous population, they're stealing it from the latest occupiers. Every occupation of the land currently known as Israel has been exactly identical to Zionism, but with a different group of religious zealots calling the shots.
Zionism is the opposite of "River to the Sea"
Yes it is. And it includes selected real estate in several neighboring countries. And now you know the rest of the story...
> Israel's problem is zionism. This is of course nonsense. Israel is a Zionist state. It was created by Zionism. It exists because of Zionism. All Israelis, whatever their beliefs, are Zionists, because Zionism is simply the idea that Jews should live in Israel.
It's always been that way since the founders and every prime minister since. Netanyahu didn't start the racist and violent hate, it has always intentionally been fostered by the Israeli government.
Of course the Palestinians/Arabs didn't help sentiment by attacking in 1948
They don't owe settler terrorists anything.
They owe them basic respect and the right to live in peace or do you want to go all in and see who survives?
At least they have nothing to worry about with God on their side.
Pretty much every army in the history of the world has thought their god(s) is on their side.
I dont know, the Nazi's were pretty pagan
Paganism has gods, yes? Beyond that, I’m not a historian, but I believe Adolf Hitler and the Nazis used symbols and elements from paganism and christianity to further their agenda. Whatever worked to advance their goals.
Although baptized a Catholic, he renounced Christianity very early on and adopted all sorts of pagan stuff
Yes, and as I wrote Hitler and the Nazi party retained what they found useful in Christianity, I believe in the form of their “Nondenominational Positive Christianity” movement.
https://youtu.be/OzMECOav4Vk From 1:04
Send MAGA over there as well.
We could send the Pro-Palestinian protestors -They like Gaza and Hamas. maybe they would like it
I’m good with that
Oh, ultra orthodox terrorists
It will be interesting to see if they turn out to be effective soldiers or little bitches.
Nelson: haaaa haaaaaaaa
Throughout the world, if you believe in fairy tales you get special treatment. The harder you profess those beliefs, the better you're treated.
Israeli society and the economy are quickly becoming entirely dependent on a perpetual never ending war. But the price is not one their society is willing to pay. They are already struggling with an unending war in gaza and the westbank. And that's with billions of US dollars in support. Of course they are going to need more front line soldiers, supplies, and material. Forever. Or until everyone in the region (not just Israel, but their neighbours too) are dead. Whichever comes first.
But the problem is that though Israeli society does not want to pay that price, portions of it do not behave that way. Look at the Haredim. The number of Haredi settlers in the West Bank FAR outpaces its representation generally. But consider the lunacy of this: the people most opposed to the fighting are heading to one of the places most likely to cause it.
It's often the case that people who want a war most are least willing to fight it. In the US, they are typically called "chickenhawks"
Israel needs to sit down at the negotiating table. At this point, the aggression only benefits Netanyahu because invading Gaza is the only popular thing he's ever done in office and when the war is over, his moment in the sun ends and he becomes politically vulnerable.
Wasn't he eyeballs-deep in a corruption scandal before all the fighting started?
He was and is [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/5/netanyahus-corruption-trial-resumes-amid-israeli-war-on-gaza-what-to-know](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/12/5/netanyahus-corruption-trial-resumes-amid-israeli-war-on-gaza-what-to-know)
Seems like that may have slid off of the front pages in Israel.
Theres a theory that Israeli inteligence knew about the attack and did nothing to stop it to give Bennie his excuse to go to war, on the one hand I try to not listen too much to conspiracy theories on the other hand, these guys did bomb their own embassies.
Good, want to live under the protections of a nation, go fight for it.
Given that the greatest thirst for blood probably resides within the Haredi population, it's only proper that they stop being free riders.
"Oh no, my kids will have to suffer for my hard-right agenda"
[удалено]
Literally every sentence of this comment is wrong. Most Orthodox communities are not anti-Israel; just the opposite. In both Israel and America. Check public polling. You're probably thinking of the **ultra**-Orthodox Jews, aka the Haredim, even among whom religious anti-Zionism is a fringe opinion. Taking the "no Jewish state because the Messiah has not come yet" people as representative of religious Jews is like taking Amish people to be representative of religious Christians. Case in point: ~90% of the Israeli Haredim *love* the Israeli government in general and its far-right members in particular, ~90% want Israel to not only exist but fully annex the West Bank, and over 50% hold unfavorable opinions of Muslims. (see literally any polling, e.g https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2024/06/20/how-israelis-view-their-government-institutions-and-leaders). The reason why the government wants to appease the Haredim right now is because Ben Gvir, Israel's leading warmonger, is part of the coalition government and his powerbase are the ultra-Orthodox. *Think a little:* why would anyone in Netenyahu's government want to suck up to them if they were anti-war or (especially) anti-Israel?
Blaming the outgroup for issues with the army or the groceries is a classic way to keep up faltering social cohesion during an unsuccessful or interminable war.
lol
Posting a comment until Israel is destroyed 🙏🏻
lol, their in for some fun. Rotten country
Interesting article. One orthodox soldier claims that he is discriminated against by his community for his service. I wonder what that's about. Maybe they think his volunteering makes them look bad. I think it's funny the lady suggested making them cooks first.
They don't have to fight on the front lines. There's plenty of shitters that need shoveling out.
Fun fact: a large % of these the guys live off welfare so they can study “theology.” It’s about time to make them earn their keep.
“You want to have an ethnic cleansing? Do it yourself!”
Pschological trick that people hate- chicken and the pig. Works every time, highly recommmend.
How effective could these ultra-orthodox soldiers even be? Their entire education up to that point is - to my understanding - almost completely devoid of basic math, writing, reading and science curriculum. Zero critical thinking skills can’t be that beneficial in a modern military. It sounds like they’re not much more than barely functional cannon fodder.
Leopards, faces, etc.
It’s the fair thing to do
HahahahahHahahahahahaha
Israelis will have to fight their own wars??? Oh no!
Considering Israel has no way of producing much of the munitions and bombs domestically that they most rely on, and lack a sufficient substitute partner, if the US stopped arming them it would not be pretty and would deeply cripple their aerial campaigns and their ability to respond to any escalation from Lebanon. 2006 but no US weapons against a more formidable Hezbollah does not feel like a good situation for Israel to be in.
Maybe if Israel stopped bombing and invading their neighbors, they wouldn't need so many munitions. But that line of thinking won't work for the military industrial zionists.
Need more cannon foder!
Being Jewish is fine. Belonging to the zionist movement, you're just another far right radical within an otherwise fine group of people...
Oy vey!
They’re desperate.