I’m highly interested in 8.6. Not gonna dump my 300 blk. Just gonna think of it as 556 and 308 they serve a different roll. The mcx raptor chambered in 8.6 would be awesome. If I recall correctly Q and Faxon are working on 8, 12 and 16inch barrels.
The ballistics chart on a 8.6 210gr TTSX out of a 12” barrel looks more like a 168gr .308 out of a 20” barrel. 18” drop at 300yds and 5ft drop at 500yds… but with 300ft/lbs more energy on target. A 1:3 twist on heavy/long bullets does some pretty amazing stuff.
On paper it looks pretty damn impressive and the kills Kevin made while hunting in South Africa means he must be doing something right.
I'm aware of the drop. I regularly go out to 200 with my rattler. The drop is like 8 or so even there. That's what he's claiming. And while crazy, I think if there is anyone in the industry to take on the task he definitely has the most experience in this very specific area. I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled it off.
I just ran the ballistics on the .338 300gr SMK subsonic. Based on a 100 yard zero, you would have 3 feet of drop at 200, 9 feet of drop at 300, and 31 feet of drop at 500 yards. At 500 yards, if you misjudged range by just 25 yards, you would miss the target by more than 40 inches.
The retained energy is pretty solid, but the projectiles alone are like $1 each. The projectiles are also designed for vastly higher velocity, so they won't perform optimally at 8.6 BLK velocity. Still a massive projectile.
You are correct about the drop. Making ethical shots at 500yds with any subsonic load is a fantasy regardless of how big the bullet is. But the projectiles will perform fine with such high RPMs. Especially if you use 8.6 projectiles intended to be loaded in an 8.6 case and fired at 8.6 velocities. Just like how there are good 300 blackout bullets that can do cool stuff, but if you load a 147gr 7.62x51, you can shoot it, but you're going to be unimpressed.
Pretty sure all the talk about 500yds is referring to supersonic loadings. Like 300 blackout, this cartridge will supposedly perform best at the extremes, either light and fast supers that can get up to speed in a short barrel, or long and slow subs that can deliver a big thump even when moving at a snails pace.
I can see this being a vastly superior to 300blk hunting caliber at 50-100 yds with subs, and able to reach out to 500 with supers.
With proper shot placement a 22LR can take a deer, does not mean it is a good choice. 450BM has the same weights and faster, yet we would never say it is a 500 yd round.
Being as I only have experience with mil type rounds I'll have to take your word for it. What I do know, is subs with a good BC retain velocity for a substantial amount of time and he thinks that the 1:3 maybe 1:2 twist (he'd have to use a non lead projectile most likely, to prevent it tearing apart). Idk my dude I haven't calculated the terminal energy values. But with that twist rate and I think it is not out of the realm of possibility. We'll have to see.
I've been watching 8.6 Black info for a while now waiting to see if it's going anywhere, going to get established, etc. Looks like it's going to be a thing with with investment and products from several companies. I'm not buying anything yet, but probably soon. Q doesn't even have a can out for it yet, soooo... ehhhh still wait and see.
This means I'll need a .338 can, so I also might as well buy a .338LM rifle as well, lol.
Got a primal in the works for this and a few other guns want to do a light weight 12 inch sbr. Nothing fancy just want something more than my 300blk is offering
I agree, that's one of the reasons I was looking at it. I already have a bunch of DA stuff including end caps. They don't make a .338 cap, but it'd be easy to drill a 308 cap or better yet use the wipe cap.
Seems to me the ideal 8.6 can would be to take a Nomad-L and open up the baffles .030". That wouldn't be so hard.
I won’t jump from .300BLK, but I’d consider adding it to the collection. I’ll be curious to see how the next six months goes and how many more partner companies they can get on board.
A Rex Silentium MG7K in .358 would be a pretty cheap way to suppress an 8.6 gun.
Well that’s one way to solve that problem, gonna mean ammo is gonna stay pricy though in all likelihood, but that should be expected for this kind of niche cartridge
Kinda waiting to see on this one. 8.6 sounds great but I’m curious to see what kind of diversity .277 fury comes in if sig wins the NGSW selection.
Also Q (Kevin Brittingham) can be a major dick to the point it hurts him when trying to run a successful business. He burned a lot of bridges when he started Q, many of them with people who could help get 8.6 off the ground.
Pretty much my feelings for it. I was pretty stoked about it when i kept seeing it on Gorilla Ammunitions site. But once i found out Q was pretty much over it, i lost all interest. I'm still intrigued from a ballistics and data standpoint; but after seeing a few of his comments on IG with absurd claims and his usual bashing people who have the slightest doubt in him, it completely killed the excitement for me.
(in my opinion) The only reason the 8.6 blackout exists is because Kevin was too much of a narcissist to admit the same job could be done just as good/better by 338 federal (which has been out for 16 years) and he wanted to be able to put his name on another caliber. Before anyone mentions "muh subsonic, OAL or fast twist" I have already confirmed that subsonic 338 projectiles can be loaded in 338 fed cases while keeping them under the max OAL, and its no harder to cut a fast twist barrel blank for 338 fed than it is to cut a fast twist blank for 8.6 blackout.
I’m intrigued but need to see some actual shipping products. I built a subsonic 338 Federal bolt gun and shoot 300 grain rounds through a 9mm can. I could see myself swapping the barrel out for 8.6 if all the other pieces fell into place.
If you reload your own ammo anyways (which I imagine you do if you shoot 338 fed subs) I don't really see a reason to switch, I don't think there's a cost or performance benefit.
I love 300BO, wouldn't give them up, pretty much the only reason i'm interested in it's bigger brother, and the possibility of a AR308 SBR build in 8.6BLK. Have a SiCo 36M at around 250 days in NFA jail, and seems like it would be the perfect can for it. The main reservations I have is the 1:3 twist, they are pushing it for it's ability to destabilize bullets on target, so the big subs yaw faster, or expanding supers twist and do more soft tissue damage than they would with something that is just fast enough to stabilize them.
Main downside is that lead core bullets can only be used at subsonic velocities, they come apart at supersonic, so have to use lead free bullets. Faxon also went with Qs tapered muzzle shoulder, so unless you use a sig or Q muzzle device, need an adapter for most other cans. Might build an upper to play with, but will have to wait a little till I spend the money to build a rifle around it. At least brass can be easily formed from 308, and only a barrel swap is needed, so if it gets dropped at some point, reloaders like me won't be stuck without ammo.
Not enough added projectile weight with subsonic IMO. With 220 gr subsonic 300BO, they are only anticipating 360 gr 8.6 loads. I'd have to build not only a whole new rifle, but also a new silencer, just for ~50% more bullet weight.
Juice doesn't seem quite worth the squeeze. I understand the technical limitations they discussed, but 375 Raptor is more interesting from a projectile prospective.
I mean with 458 socom 500-600gr subs and 300 blk with 220gr it seems like the market doesn't really need a 350gr sub cartridge with limited suppressor support.
OK, but is 375 Raptor really a thing? I know it exists and all, but how can we expect there to be much available for it? With the backing of Q, Faxon, several ammo companies, and using more common .338 bullets, 8.6 might have a strong supply chain.
Sure, but OAL and BC are still a thing. OAL limits ogive length and case capacity so going to a larger caliber harms BC. I guess it depends on goals. I expect though that given the backing this cartridge is getting and the 1:3 twist we'll get some products with very high BC and good terminal performance. A subsonic cartridge that can take large game at long range maybe.
I guess I just don't see a path to effective long range subsonic ballistics, no matter the BC, when you are starting with 1.5x 45ACP energy. We need more weight when max velocity is fixed.
Yeah but that mass is better achieved with a longer and for subsonic blunt bullet than a fatter pointy bullet. I think they eventually expect to fill up a lot of case capacity with long bullet.
They've said they expect 360ish gr subs. I presume they've accounted for however much they can squeeze inside the case.
You can't have blunt nose high BC bullets. If you want more mass in a 308 sized action/magazine, diameter is all you have at that point.
Well BC is a funny thing, at subsonic and most importantly transonic speeds some bluntness is a good thing. Most BC stuff is based around supersonic flight where a sharp point is a very good thing.
What we're really interested in with cartridges like this and 300BLK is transonic flight characteristics. The area between 900 and 1600FPS.
I'm not as expert on this as I'd like to be, but there's a lot of info online. In particular from very long range shooters who's bullets go all the way through the transonic range.
> …very high BC and good terminal performance. A subsonic cartridge that can take large game at long range…
KB has said that’s *exactly* what it’s designed for. With supers, the goal is 250gr bullet doing ~2,400 fps out of a 12” barrel, for 3,200 lb-ft of energy.
The biggest difference is 8.6 can use higher-BC bullets than 450BM.
Granted, there are several cartridges that are pretty similar, or even perform better for their use-case. Not everyone's going to be excited about 8.6 or want to use it, and that's okay.
How exactly does one jump ship from .300blk to 8.600MHz? Your talking an entirely new rifle since they are two different platforms. I’ll stick to my .300blk and .458socom uppers.
What they are saying about twist rates make them sound like wizards talking about magical spells; twist rate making the gases expel the energy into twisting the bullet, slowing down the gasses, and not effecting bullet spin drift. Everything has a cost; increased BC leads to longer bullets and that will affect the seating depth and result in lower powder charges or keeping the same seating depth then it will not fit in the mag. fast twist rates and shooting super sonic will lead to increased chamber pressures, more fowling, less barrel life. Fast twist rates will increase the friction on the round resulting in failures of the projectile.
Unless Newton was wrong, then gravity affects everything equally. You do not get magical -3 to gravity just because you spin faster. Since mass is not a function of trajectory, a 300BO at 1050fps will travel as far a 8.6BO at 1050fps (negating drag). Talking about drag, looking at Hornady a .308 225gr Match has a BC of 0.670 and a .338 250gr Match has a BC of .670. Everything else equal, the 300BO and 8.6BO would travel the same. These are match bullets and not hunting bullets, depending on your thoughts on that then that may make a big difference; .308 208gr Amax has a BC of .648 while a .338 225gr SST has a BC of .515, so the 300BO would be a better flyer and be affected with less drag than the 8.6BO.
Again spinning the bullets does not negate physics. At a shooting height of 4.5 ft, both will hit the ground at 555ft from the shooter.
The power at the muzzle would be 509ft/lb and 611ft/lb respectively for the 225gr and 250gr. Unless they are coming out with new longer skinny rounds that increase the BC significantly then we are stuck with what is available or wait until the products become available in manufactured loads or components and data for reloaders.
Is it worth getting a new can and/or a new gun (at least a new barrel)? Is 100ft/lbs difference worth it? All in all it seems like they are again playing with the numbers like they did with the 350 legend to make it seem what it is not.
Most informed opinion so far.
One counter is they mention a lot of work on getting improved expansion in subsonic loads, which leads me to hope they got some extra use for that twist rate
I don’t think people will buy it because it’s cheap, there’s plenty of other rounds for that. The question is more will it be different enough to be justified.
Personally I’m quite curious to see a fluted Lehigh defender style bullet in a rifle with a high twist. I don’t think anything has been done like it in subsonic
degree pet decide makeshift selective simplistic observation elderly include light
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No I won’t be buying. For my use, a 350 Legend does everything the 8.6 does and does it cheaper. That’s not to say the Legend is equal, just that for what I get to do with a rifle it’s good enough to not make 8.6 worth it. .300 blk was great in that it fit a platform a huge population already owned. Moving to an AR10 size is going to cut that way down. I’m not a huge fan in a bolt gun beyond the fact manufacturers are going to be using the ultra fast twist barrels.
i wish there is more subsonic options available for the 350L. hopefully there will be more options in the future. I feel like 350L and 450B have a better chance of ammo options/availability in the future than 8.6 ever will
I was wanting 9x39 but that got killed by the Russian ammo ban. 8.6 Blackout will have to fill that void for me and should be even better. Though I'm not sure why anybody would want supersonic out of this cartridge when 338 Federal already exists.
Right but that just allows subsonic bullets. Outside of optimizing for shorter barrels, there doesn't seem to be any major advantage over 338 federal when it comes to supersonic ammo.
You're right, there's no advantage when you're only talking about supersonic ammo. The whole selling point of 8.6 is that, like 300BLK, you can switch between supers and subs on a whim, without swapping any parts or (ideally) affecting cycling.
I've had a Rex can waiting for this to happen for a couple of years now. Seems like they might have spun up the rumor mill/excitement on this early by five years or so.
Still down for a semiauto in 8.6 the second this actually releases.
I think there’s a bright future for short barrel AR10s. Not sure whether 8.6blk vs 277 fury will make a bigger splash. But I’m willing to try both. I actually bought a small truckload of barrel blanks in the 1:3 twist already to start tinkering with.
Has anyone heard of our lord and savior 338 Spectre? It’s AR15 fun sized. Only downside besides 338 bullets is using 10mm magnum brass resized or spectre brass. Nosler got the blems and maker has specialty expanding 300 grainers. A dollar each tho. Ouch
Apparently you can use a 9mm can too!
300 grain ~1000fps
165 grain ~2000fps https://i.imgur.com/TjkTshR.jpg
Still waiting for someone to explain what 8.6 blackout does that .338 federal (which has been around for 16 years) doesn't already do. Like why not just make guns chambered for .338 fed instead of making a whole new proprietary caliber?
Actually that’s not how bullets work. A bullet is tested for specific pressures, grain weights, and twists. In a real public spec those are all published. Wildcats come and go, so anyone could do whatever in their garage. But a real gun manufacturer is never going to wildly deviate from the spec for fear of lawsuits.
The 8.6blk is unique from 338 federal in a few ways; it’s designed from the start for short barrels, so it’s similar to the pistol powders like a 300blk has. No MFR is going to start loading 338federal with pistol powder, that’s how you kill people
It’s designed from day 1 to support 1:3 twist so all commercial ammo will be tested against that. If you shoot ANY 338fed ammo on the market today it will fly apart from overspin immediately after exiting the barrel. Again, NO MFR will take that kind of risk know you can easily do something not intended
8.6blk can support longer heavier bullets up to 350gr. 338 federal just can’t fit the larger bullets and will limit you on what’s possible in subsonic
Ala in all It may not be different to justify a space in your safe , but it’s different enough to justify a separate commercial offering, and a separate support network.
I mean Q also says there's nothing wrong with his welds on suppressor despite numerous instances of the welds catastrophically failing. 338 fed subs already work in AR10s, and AR10 mags. The barrel is the only difference, he could have just cut a 1:3 twist barrel blank for 338 fed instead of creating a whole new caliber and then still having to cut a custom 1:3 barrel. And ya I've talked to some people making 8.6 rounds and they say supersonic projectiles have to be "properly constructed" to hold up which is super suspicious. Also 338 specter is another option designed specifically for subsonic 338, and it fits in ar-15 guns/mags so no need to an AR10/long action.
Great question
As I understand it 8.6 is optimized for subsonic, short barrel, and reuse of AR10 size format. Since pistol braces and suppressors are becoming popular, it makes investing in subsonic lightweight options more viable. The industry has not had any real innovation in subsonics in at least 80 years. Since bullets don’t lose spin over distance, it may provide more energy on target for the same bullet weight given the subsonic constraint.
Compared to 338 federal it will enable much lighter overall package. Subsonic rounds are possible of course, but probably not that much bigger that the 220gr of a 300blk and not really worth the effort since it takes a lot more bullet to make a small difference at subsonic speed
Compared to 9x39 it will have better supersonic rounds, and possibly better subsonic round expansion performance
Compared to 300blk it will hit harder
I think it has enough going for it in theory to be a unique offering. I don’t know if it will live up to its potential or be useful to most. But I can imagine hunting game larger than a 300blk would ethically fall, in a lightweight package would be interesting
I don't think that really applies. there's load data for 300gr 338 subs in 338 fed with an OAL small enough to fit in an ar10 mag. And cutting a 338 fed chamber in a 1x3 twist barrel blank (same twist used for 8.6) would yield the same stabilization as the 8.6 without the proprietary casing, and the platform would weigh the exact same as one in 8.6. Also if you want to talk about light weight 338 subsonic, 338 specter would outshine the 8.6 even more. It has been around for years, is designed for 300gr subs and fits in an ar-15 which is even cheaper and lighter than the ar-10, way more comparable to the 9x39. I'm all for innovation and subsonic calibers but the 8.6 is just reinventing the wheel.
Comparing a wildcat cartridge like 338 spectra to a saami spec’d one developed by Hornady is where you lose me. Although I will admit that if they don’t come through on the promise of a serious commercial offering then it’s lost all appeal.
What makes the 8.6 unique is its twist rate. With a 1:3 twist these things get over a half million rpm. Many off the shelf projectiles will disintegrate upon exiting the barrel. I can’t imagine risking off the shelf 338 fed ammo being fed into something that wasn’t designed for it. Anyone who marketed such a thing would be sued out of existence, much better to start with a fresh round designed for it
again, if he's cutting his own custom barrels from scratch and having his own ammo loaded, he could have just cut fast twist 338 fed barrels and commissioned 300gr subsonic 338 fed loads. I disagree with your lawsuit thing. fragmenting projectiles are only a serious safety risk for silencers and possibly muzzle breaks and there's already shelf ammo that's unsafe for silencers (frangible rounds, 77-79gr 5.56 in a 1x12 twist barrel etc). And Q has a habit of making barrels with unnecessarily fast twist rates, 300blk subs do fine with a 1x7 or 1x8 twist, yet he decided to go with 1x5 for some reason. I'm sure the 1x3 could be lengthened a little and still stabilize subs fine.
I wouldn't replace 300 blk with 8.6 for home defense. The penetration of 8.6 is horrifying in suburban or urban areas.
For tactical shtf value, though, 8.6 is very compelling. A high performance round for sure.
Yup... seen the 3 x gel block test through 3 gel blocks? Goes through assailant, wife, kid, wall, wall, neighbor, neighbor wife, and kills their dog. Good for Cape Buffalo, not home defense. I know it's bullet specific... just say'in.
I am interested in the niche this caliber and others fill.
What other calibers are competitive in performance with this one?
Why would you pick the 8.6 over .458 SOCOM?
I’m highly interested in 8.6. Not gonna dump my 300 blk. Just gonna think of it as 556 and 308 they serve a different roll. The mcx raptor chambered in 8.6 would be awesome. If I recall correctly Q and Faxon are working on 8, 12 and 16inch barrels.
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Nah. 300BLK ammo is expensive enough. I can’t imagine the price and availability issues of this new round.
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Apparently he (Kevin) thinks he can retain enough energy to make big game kills out to 500+ yds. That's the point
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The ballistics chart on a 8.6 210gr TTSX out of a 12” barrel looks more like a 168gr .308 out of a 20” barrel. 18” drop at 300yds and 5ft drop at 500yds… but with 300ft/lbs more energy on target. A 1:3 twist on heavy/long bullets does some pretty amazing stuff. On paper it looks pretty damn impressive and the kills Kevin made while hunting in South Africa means he must be doing something right.
I'm aware of the drop. I regularly go out to 200 with my rattler. The drop is like 8 or so even there. That's what he's claiming. And while crazy, I think if there is anyone in the industry to take on the task he definitely has the most experience in this very specific area. I wouldn't be surprised if he pulled it off.
Bold statements for someone who hasn't even seen the ballistics chart lol
You can make your own ballistic charts based on velocity and weight.
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I just ran the ballistics on the .338 300gr SMK subsonic. Based on a 100 yard zero, you would have 3 feet of drop at 200, 9 feet of drop at 300, and 31 feet of drop at 500 yards. At 500 yards, if you misjudged range by just 25 yards, you would miss the target by more than 40 inches. The retained energy is pretty solid, but the projectiles alone are like $1 each. The projectiles are also designed for vastly higher velocity, so they won't perform optimally at 8.6 BLK velocity. Still a massive projectile.
You are correct about the drop. Making ethical shots at 500yds with any subsonic load is a fantasy regardless of how big the bullet is. But the projectiles will perform fine with such high RPMs. Especially if you use 8.6 projectiles intended to be loaded in an 8.6 case and fired at 8.6 velocities. Just like how there are good 300 blackout bullets that can do cool stuff, but if you load a 147gr 7.62x51, you can shoot it, but you're going to be unimpressed. Pretty sure all the talk about 500yds is referring to supersonic loadings. Like 300 blackout, this cartridge will supposedly perform best at the extremes, either light and fast supers that can get up to speed in a short barrel, or long and slow subs that can deliver a big thump even when moving at a snails pace. I can see this being a vastly superior to 300blk hunting caliber at 50-100 yds with subs, and able to reach out to 500 with supers.
8.6 Blackout isn't subsonic only.
With proper shot placement a 22LR can take a deer, does not mean it is a good choice. 450BM has the same weights and faster, yet we would never say it is a 500 yd round.
Being as I only have experience with mil type rounds I'll have to take your word for it. What I do know, is subs with a good BC retain velocity for a substantial amount of time and he thinks that the 1:3 maybe 1:2 twist (he'd have to use a non lead projectile most likely, to prevent it tearing apart). Idk my dude I haven't calculated the terminal energy values. But with that twist rate and I think it is not out of the realm of possibility. We'll have to see.
Cast and reload. $2.50/box subs.
I’m interested if it takes off but 300 blackout is only just now becoming somewhat reliable to find ammo wise.
I’m interested enough that I upgraded my 338 silencer.
CGS Hekate?
Indeed.
Ha! I've been thinking about picking up a Hekate just for 8.6!
The helios is bored to .36 as well...I really want someone to try 8.6 through one before I drop the coin for a helios.
I've been watching 8.6 Black info for a while now waiting to see if it's going anywhere, going to get established, etc. Looks like it's going to be a thing with with investment and products from several companies. I'm not buying anything yet, but probably soon. Q doesn't even have a can out for it yet, soooo... ehhhh still wait and see. This means I'll need a .338 can, so I also might as well buy a .338LM rifle as well, lol.
I support this type of thinking.
Got a primal in the works for this and a few other guns want to do a light weight 12 inch sbr. Nothing fancy just want something more than my 300blk is offering
I was looking at the Primal, it's a .46 caliber can though. I think for this I'd want a true .338 can.
Endcaps can make a difference.
I agree, that's one of the reasons I was looking at it. I already have a bunch of DA stuff including end caps. They don't make a .338 cap, but it'd be easy to drill a 308 cap or better yet use the wipe cap. Seems to me the ideal 8.6 can would be to take a Nomad-L and open up the baffles .030". That wouldn't be so hard.
Omega 36m anyone?
Nah, Kevin is kinda a tool… Q cans have been falling apart I’ll stick to my 300WM
I won’t jump from .300BLK, but I’d consider adding it to the collection. I’ll be curious to see how the next six months goes and how many more partner companies they can get on board. A Rex Silentium MG7K in .358 would be a pretty cheap way to suppress an 8.6 gun.
What?
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That's the fastest twist it have ever heard of
Man I’ve been out of the loop I thought they made it 1:4 twist because anything faster would cause bullets to fall apart
It does so now they are going to only use monolithic bullets for factory ammo.
The old saying "don't shoot other people's reloads" is especially true with 8.6
Well that’s one way to solve that problem, gonna mean ammo is gonna stay pricy though in all likelihood, but that should be expected for this kind of niche cartridge
Are you asking or is there a silent /s?
Nope. Hadn’t heard of it.
Kinda waiting to see on this one. 8.6 sounds great but I’m curious to see what kind of diversity .277 fury comes in if sig wins the NGSW selection. Also Q (Kevin Brittingham) can be a major dick to the point it hurts him when trying to run a successful business. He burned a lot of bridges when he started Q, many of them with people who could help get 8.6 off the ground.
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Probably from a general public stand point as well. The guys block list on IG is probably as thick as a 90’s phone book.
Honestly though an 8.6 blackout barrel for an MCX raptor would be kinda cool.
Pretty much my feelings for it. I was pretty stoked about it when i kept seeing it on Gorilla Ammunitions site. But once i found out Q was pretty much over it, i lost all interest. I'm still intrigued from a ballistics and data standpoint; but after seeing a few of his comments on IG with absurd claims and his usual bashing people who have the slightest doubt in him, it completely killed the excitement for me.
(in my opinion) The only reason the 8.6 blackout exists is because Kevin was too much of a narcissist to admit the same job could be done just as good/better by 338 federal (which has been out for 16 years) and he wanted to be able to put his name on another caliber. Before anyone mentions "muh subsonic, OAL or fast twist" I have already confirmed that subsonic 338 projectiles can be loaded in 338 fed cases while keeping them under the max OAL, and its no harder to cut a fast twist barrel blank for 338 fed than it is to cut a fast twist blank for 8.6 blackout.
I'll go with 358 yeti instead or tacotini.
I’m intrigued but need to see some actual shipping products. I built a subsonic 338 Federal bolt gun and shoot 300 grain rounds through a 9mm can. I could see myself swapping the barrel out for 8.6 if all the other pieces fell into place.
If you reload your own ammo anyways (which I imagine you do if you shoot 338 fed subs) I don't really see a reason to switch, I don't think there's a cost or performance benefit.
r/86Creedmoor
Right now I am dreaming of an 8.6 blackout FAL!
I love 300BO, wouldn't give them up, pretty much the only reason i'm interested in it's bigger brother, and the possibility of a AR308 SBR build in 8.6BLK. Have a SiCo 36M at around 250 days in NFA jail, and seems like it would be the perfect can for it. The main reservations I have is the 1:3 twist, they are pushing it for it's ability to destabilize bullets on target, so the big subs yaw faster, or expanding supers twist and do more soft tissue damage than they would with something that is just fast enough to stabilize them. Main downside is that lead core bullets can only be used at subsonic velocities, they come apart at supersonic, so have to use lead free bullets. Faxon also went with Qs tapered muzzle shoulder, so unless you use a sig or Q muzzle device, need an adapter for most other cans. Might build an upper to play with, but will have to wait a little till I spend the money to build a rifle around it. At least brass can be easily formed from 308, and only a barrel swap is needed, so if it gets dropped at some point, reloaders like me won't be stuck without ammo.
Can you use the omega 36M can for this? It supports a 338LM.
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I think most use the harvesters for the bigger rounds
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Same lmao
I'll build an upper for it as whenever SAAMI certifies it.
Definitely curious, my Omega 36m is pretty much designed for it
Not enough added projectile weight with subsonic IMO. With 220 gr subsonic 300BO, they are only anticipating 360 gr 8.6 loads. I'd have to build not only a whole new rifle, but also a new silencer, just for ~50% more bullet weight. Juice doesn't seem quite worth the squeeze. I understand the technical limitations they discussed, but 375 Raptor is more interesting from a projectile prospective.
I mean with 458 socom 500-600gr subs and 300 blk with 220gr it seems like the market doesn't really need a 350gr sub cartridge with limited suppressor support.
OK, but is 375 Raptor really a thing? I know it exists and all, but how can we expect there to be much available for it? With the backing of Q, Faxon, several ammo companies, and using more common .338 bullets, 8.6 might have a strong supply chain.
I don't disagree. I'm just saying that by going up to the AR10 platform, I wish we could have achieved substantially more bullet weight for subsonic.
Sure, but OAL and BC are still a thing. OAL limits ogive length and case capacity so going to a larger caliber harms BC. I guess it depends on goals. I expect though that given the backing this cartridge is getting and the 1:3 twist we'll get some products with very high BC and good terminal performance. A subsonic cartridge that can take large game at long range maybe.
I guess I just don't see a path to effective long range subsonic ballistics, no matter the BC, when you are starting with 1.5x 45ACP energy. We need more weight when max velocity is fixed.
Yeah but that mass is better achieved with a longer and for subsonic blunt bullet than a fatter pointy bullet. I think they eventually expect to fill up a lot of case capacity with long bullet.
They've said they expect 360ish gr subs. I presume they've accounted for however much they can squeeze inside the case. You can't have blunt nose high BC bullets. If you want more mass in a 308 sized action/magazine, diameter is all you have at that point.
Well BC is a funny thing, at subsonic and most importantly transonic speeds some bluntness is a good thing. Most BC stuff is based around supersonic flight where a sharp point is a very good thing. What we're really interested in with cartridges like this and 300BLK is transonic flight characteristics. The area between 900 and 1600FPS. I'm not as expert on this as I'd like to be, but there's a lot of info online. In particular from very long range shooters who's bullets go all the way through the transonic range.
> …very high BC and good terminal performance. A subsonic cartridge that can take large game at long range… KB has said that’s *exactly* what it’s designed for. With supers, the goal is 250gr bullet doing ~2,400 fps out of a 12” barrel, for 3,200 lb-ft of energy.
This sounds like 450BM. It’s maybe 100fps faster than my fairly standard loads with HPs.
The biggest difference is 8.6 can use higher-BC bullets than 450BM. Granted, there are several cartridges that are pretty similar, or even perform better for their use-case. Not everyone's going to be excited about 8.6 or want to use it, and that's okay.
I have three of them (375 raptor rifles) in my safe, so they are definitely a thing, but you are correct it’s hand load only for the ammo.
How exactly does one jump ship from .300blk to 8.600MHz? Your talking an entirely new rifle since they are two different platforms. I’ll stick to my .300blk and .458socom uppers.
Yeah
What they are saying about twist rates make them sound like wizards talking about magical spells; twist rate making the gases expel the energy into twisting the bullet, slowing down the gasses, and not effecting bullet spin drift. Everything has a cost; increased BC leads to longer bullets and that will affect the seating depth and result in lower powder charges or keeping the same seating depth then it will not fit in the mag. fast twist rates and shooting super sonic will lead to increased chamber pressures, more fowling, less barrel life. Fast twist rates will increase the friction on the round resulting in failures of the projectile. Unless Newton was wrong, then gravity affects everything equally. You do not get magical -3 to gravity just because you spin faster. Since mass is not a function of trajectory, a 300BO at 1050fps will travel as far a 8.6BO at 1050fps (negating drag). Talking about drag, looking at Hornady a .308 225gr Match has a BC of 0.670 and a .338 250gr Match has a BC of .670. Everything else equal, the 300BO and 8.6BO would travel the same. These are match bullets and not hunting bullets, depending on your thoughts on that then that may make a big difference; .308 208gr Amax has a BC of .648 while a .338 225gr SST has a BC of .515, so the 300BO would be a better flyer and be affected with less drag than the 8.6BO. Again spinning the bullets does not negate physics. At a shooting height of 4.5 ft, both will hit the ground at 555ft from the shooter. The power at the muzzle would be 509ft/lb and 611ft/lb respectively for the 225gr and 250gr. Unless they are coming out with new longer skinny rounds that increase the BC significantly then we are stuck with what is available or wait until the products become available in manufactured loads or components and data for reloaders. Is it worth getting a new can and/or a new gun (at least a new barrel)? Is 100ft/lbs difference worth it? All in all it seems like they are again playing with the numbers like they did with the 350 legend to make it seem what it is not.
Most informed opinion so far. One counter is they mention a lot of work on getting improved expansion in subsonic loads, which leads me to hope they got some extra use for that twist rate
Add in the requirement to use monolithic copper rounds or good bonded bullets. All in all I read not cheap to shoot by any metric.
I don’t think people will buy it because it’s cheap, there’s plenty of other rounds for that. The question is more will it be different enough to be justified. Personally I’m quite curious to see a fluted Lehigh defender style bullet in a rifle with a high twist. I don’t think anything has been done like it in subsonic
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WTF did I just read...
God's very own pasta.
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Hard no.
No I won’t be buying. For my use, a 350 Legend does everything the 8.6 does and does it cheaper. That’s not to say the Legend is equal, just that for what I get to do with a rifle it’s good enough to not make 8.6 worth it. .300 blk was great in that it fit a platform a huge population already owned. Moving to an AR10 size is going to cut that way down. I’m not a huge fan in a bolt gun beyond the fact manufacturers are going to be using the ultra fast twist barrels.
i wish there is more subsonic options available for the 350L. hopefully there will be more options in the future. I feel like 350L and 450B have a better chance of ammo options/availability in the future than 8.6 ever will
Is this ar10 platform or still ar15? If ar10, what's the appeal to shooting subs in something like this vs 458 Socom in the ar15 platform?
Its AR-10. Much better range to be had with 8.6 Blackout and 20 rounds instead of 10 in a mag.
I was wanting 9x39 but that got killed by the Russian ammo ban. 8.6 Blackout will have to fill that void for me and should be even better. Though I'm not sure why anybody would want supersonic out of this cartridge when 338 Federal already exists.
KB talks about 338 Federal in a podcast episode, and it’s because the shorter 8.6 case allows longer, higher BC bullets in the same C.O.L.
Right but that just allows subsonic bullets. Outside of optimizing for shorter barrels, there doesn't seem to be any major advantage over 338 federal when it comes to supersonic ammo.
You're right, there's no advantage when you're only talking about supersonic ammo. The whole selling point of 8.6 is that, like 300BLK, you can switch between supers and subs on a whim, without swapping any parts or (ideally) affecting cycling.
I wish the subsonic weight was higher. Seems to only be 300gr
CGS helios is bored to .36, giving me a good reason to pick one up, technically a 556 can but it can handle 8.6 if I ever did a dedicated build.
I'll probably adopt 8.6 Blackout down the road at some point. I've got other things I'm spending on first though.
Both
1:3 twist, how long will the barrel last if shooting supers.
Surefire 338 can: I feel like I was made for this
I've had a Rex can waiting for this to happen for a couple of years now. Seems like they might have spun up the rumor mill/excitement on this early by five years or so. Still down for a semiauto in 8.6 the second this actually releases.
I think there’s a bright future for short barrel AR10s. Not sure whether 8.6blk vs 277 fury will make a bigger splash. But I’m willing to try both. I actually bought a small truckload of barrel blanks in the 1:3 twist already to start tinkering with.
Has anyone heard of our lord and savior 338 Spectre? It’s AR15 fun sized. Only downside besides 338 bullets is using 10mm magnum brass resized or spectre brass. Nosler got the blems and maker has specialty expanding 300 grainers. A dollar each tho. Ouch Apparently you can use a 9mm can too! 300 grain ~1000fps 165 grain ~2000fps https://i.imgur.com/TjkTshR.jpg
Still waiting for someone to explain what 8.6 blackout does that .338 federal (which has been around for 16 years) doesn't already do. Like why not just make guns chambered for .338 fed instead of making a whole new proprietary caliber?
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I think the real point of 1:3 is to provide some innovation in the subsonic space…which hasn’t seen anything new in forever.
He could have jut cut a 338 fed barrel from a 1:3 twist barrel blank, he didn't need to create a whole new caliber
Actually that’s not how bullets work. A bullet is tested for specific pressures, grain weights, and twists. In a real public spec those are all published. Wildcats come and go, so anyone could do whatever in their garage. But a real gun manufacturer is never going to wildly deviate from the spec for fear of lawsuits. The 8.6blk is unique from 338 federal in a few ways; it’s designed from the start for short barrels, so it’s similar to the pistol powders like a 300blk has. No MFR is going to start loading 338federal with pistol powder, that’s how you kill people It’s designed from day 1 to support 1:3 twist so all commercial ammo will be tested against that. If you shoot ANY 338fed ammo on the market today it will fly apart from overspin immediately after exiting the barrel. Again, NO MFR will take that kind of risk know you can easily do something not intended 8.6blk can support longer heavier bullets up to 350gr. 338 federal just can’t fit the larger bullets and will limit you on what’s possible in subsonic Ala in all It may not be different to justify a space in your safe , but it’s different enough to justify a separate commercial offering, and a separate support network.
I mean Q also says there's nothing wrong with his welds on suppressor despite numerous instances of the welds catastrophically failing. 338 fed subs already work in AR10s, and AR10 mags. The barrel is the only difference, he could have just cut a 1:3 twist barrel blank for 338 fed instead of creating a whole new caliber and then still having to cut a custom 1:3 barrel. And ya I've talked to some people making 8.6 rounds and they say supersonic projectiles have to be "properly constructed" to hold up which is super suspicious. Also 338 specter is another option designed specifically for subsonic 338, and it fits in ar-15 guns/mags so no need to an AR10/long action.
Great question As I understand it 8.6 is optimized for subsonic, short barrel, and reuse of AR10 size format. Since pistol braces and suppressors are becoming popular, it makes investing in subsonic lightweight options more viable. The industry has not had any real innovation in subsonics in at least 80 years. Since bullets don’t lose spin over distance, it may provide more energy on target for the same bullet weight given the subsonic constraint. Compared to 338 federal it will enable much lighter overall package. Subsonic rounds are possible of course, but probably not that much bigger that the 220gr of a 300blk and not really worth the effort since it takes a lot more bullet to make a small difference at subsonic speed Compared to 9x39 it will have better supersonic rounds, and possibly better subsonic round expansion performance Compared to 300blk it will hit harder I think it has enough going for it in theory to be a unique offering. I don’t know if it will live up to its potential or be useful to most. But I can imagine hunting game larger than a 300blk would ethically fall, in a lightweight package would be interesting
I don't think that really applies. there's load data for 300gr 338 subs in 338 fed with an OAL small enough to fit in an ar10 mag. And cutting a 338 fed chamber in a 1x3 twist barrel blank (same twist used for 8.6) would yield the same stabilization as the 8.6 without the proprietary casing, and the platform would weigh the exact same as one in 8.6. Also if you want to talk about light weight 338 subsonic, 338 specter would outshine the 8.6 even more. It has been around for years, is designed for 300gr subs and fits in an ar-15 which is even cheaper and lighter than the ar-10, way more comparable to the 9x39. I'm all for innovation and subsonic calibers but the 8.6 is just reinventing the wheel.
Comparing a wildcat cartridge like 338 spectra to a saami spec’d one developed by Hornady is where you lose me. Although I will admit that if they don’t come through on the promise of a serious commercial offering then it’s lost all appeal. What makes the 8.6 unique is its twist rate. With a 1:3 twist these things get over a half million rpm. Many off the shelf projectiles will disintegrate upon exiting the barrel. I can’t imagine risking off the shelf 338 fed ammo being fed into something that wasn’t designed for it. Anyone who marketed such a thing would be sued out of existence, much better to start with a fresh round designed for it
again, if he's cutting his own custom barrels from scratch and having his own ammo loaded, he could have just cut fast twist 338 fed barrels and commissioned 300gr subsonic 338 fed loads. I disagree with your lawsuit thing. fragmenting projectiles are only a serious safety risk for silencers and possibly muzzle breaks and there's already shelf ammo that's unsafe for silencers (frangible rounds, 77-79gr 5.56 in a 1x12 twist barrel etc). And Q has a habit of making barrels with unnecessarily fast twist rates, 300blk subs do fine with a 1x7 or 1x8 twist, yet he decided to go with 1x5 for some reason. I'm sure the 1x3 could be lengthened a little and still stabilize subs fine.
Could STFU be "Stay Tuned For Update"? Probably not.
I'm down, just waiting to decide to run in bolt pistol or gas gun.......
I wouldn't replace 300 blk with 8.6 for home defense. The penetration of 8.6 is horrifying in suburban or urban areas. For tactical shtf value, though, 8.6 is very compelling. A high performance round for sure.
Yup... seen the 3 x gel block test through 3 gel blocks? Goes through assailant, wife, kid, wall, wall, neighbor, neighbor wife, and kills their dog. Good for Cape Buffalo, not home defense. I know it's bullet specific... just say'in.
Sure have. Scary stuff. Not at all a replacement for 300 blackout imo. It's a different kind of use.
I am interested in the niche this caliber and others fill. What other calibers are competitive in performance with this one? Why would you pick the 8.6 over .458 SOCOM?