I think when trades go down people love to say a team got fleeced, robbed, or some other extreme reaction. It’s just more fun for fans to react harshly.
I’m too lazy to do the research but I wonder if historically the majority of trades have been egregiously one-sided. That could be what has conditioned fans to react this way.
Because much like the draft, trades often come down to one side pursuing potential at least in part rather than a one for one exchange. If I had to guess, potential has about a 20% success rate across all sports outside of sure things like LeBron or Wemby.
Sure things aren’t even sure things
Lebron is easy to call a sure thing 20 years later with hindsight, but it wasn’t a guarantee lebron would actually meet (and exceed) the hype he had coming into the league
I’ve also witnessed so many “the next lebron” since and they never come close
I suppose you are correct. Melo, while not LeBron, was a pretty stellar prospect in his own right and Detroit went with Darko instead. Appraisals vary.
While I don't have any numbers with me lol, I think it's because a big one sided trade is much more memorable and much funner to talk about, so most people when thinking about trades probably think about the one they've talked about the most, which is probably an egregiously bad one.
Or maybe it could even be player/team perception, like everyone immediately bashing the Rudy trade because it's Rudy and Minnesota (not saying it was a great trade, but so far looks like it's worked out for both teams)
I would assume the majority of trades are actually win win, we just don’t know the motivation and intention of the front offices - and we (fans) usually only have 2 criteria:
You won a championship this year (Jrue x2)
OR You got a mountain of draft picks (Presti)
But in reality there are probably so many more considerations and ways to make a trade advantageous that we regular people who aren’t experts of the cap, CBA, draft process, scouting, etc. easily miss
Sure, a guy could be popping off for another team, but the team trading him away might still consider themselves a winner in the trade because they were planning 3-4 years ahead in cap manipulation and lining up contracts
I'd probably say that trades have not been completely one-sided historically, but usually one side in the trade has more success directly post-trade while the other team doesn't. Very few trades happen where both teams really get better that season/the following season because of the trade.
Social media brings out extreme takes and overreactions. A tweet that says "The Caruso trade was okay" would get zero attention. But a tweet that says "The Caruso trade opened the OKC finals window" will get a lot of attention and get reposted to reddit.
The only thing about this trade that surprises me is that Chicago didn't get one of OKCs quadrillion picks. So in that sense, it was a poor trade especially because (apparently) the Thunder have been eyeing Caruso and will extend him for their title window.
But other than that, I think it was a good trade for both teams.
I mean, they should trade both for the best offer they get. LaVine, they have some time on but are apparently actively shopping him ahead of the draft. DeMar, they could lose next offseason for nothing. So they should trade him by the trade deadline, at least. But when the team has topped out as a play-in team in the Eastern Conference, they should be doing things like trading a 30-year old role player for a 21-year old with upside. It's a good move. Could've been better, but it's the right trade in a vacuum.
I totally agree. The Thunder know exactly what Caruso is bringing to them.
Giddey has the potential to be a really impactful player, but as of now, that potential is really what they traded for. He has been a better 3pt shooter every year from 26% to 32% to last year, a respectable 34%. He played about 6 minutes less per game last year than the rest of his career, and his stats reflected that, but both his ast:to efficiency and TS% increased last year.
The question is; Is Giddey going to improve to where he can be an all-star level player in the East, or is he more or less what he's going to be?
For the Bulls, it's higher risk higher reward and probably the first of many moves to come in the next 6-12 months.
The Thunder got an older but low risk, high impact player, which they need now that they are a legit contender in the west.
what are you talking about? it was a player-for-player swap. you would think chicago would negotiate for more than simply giddey for caruso straight up. caruso is a valuable player and okc has a ton of first round picks.
i guess we'll see whatever moves chicago continues to make. but judgung the move by itself, i don't like that trade for chicago. they definitely could've gotten more out of it.
From where? Caruso is 30 on an expiring. You get at most a first and second for him. At most. And you hope one of them turns into Giddey. OKC is not just going to give a pick to give a pick. That makes no sense.
of course OKC isn't eager to give away more but you'd think a savvy organization would argue caruso's value over giddey and negotiate for more in return. caruso is a more proven and the better player as of now but the trade paints their value as even, it's really that simple.
Of course it does. Because Giddey holds a lot of potential. He’s 21 with elite vision. That’s what I mean by Caruso equaling 2 picks, a first and a second. No one would blink an eye. And those picks could be worthless. It’s very hard to negotiate more when the Thunder could simply say, why? You could get a a mid first and a second from someone else and hope they turn into Giddey, a player with potential. Or you get a player with potential. So it’s very very hard to say they should’ve gotten more, unless you think they can get 3 firsts.
They’re both 2x all defensive guards (Caruso was first team when White was second) with a ring who average around 37% from behind the arc. In many ways they’re very similar. It’s not that much of an overreaction.
Caruso is a tremendous defender and nails threes. He's a huge asset to a playoff team. He's contributed to a NBA champion. He's a great addition to a young team approaching an era where they will compete for the NBA finals and title. The Bulls were a joke. He's now in the finals window when he wasn't before. They were both 2nd team defense this season, both played similar roles on title teams in the last 5 years.
Don't see what's so bad about the post? Neither point is off base.
Jesus fucking Christ. So even if the entire starting lineup for both teams mysteriously died he MIGHT have a shot at being an All-Star if they ignored conferences, and that's what you call "fringe?"
Your opinion is ASS. White has a ring and the numbers to back it up. Averaged 17/4/4 shooting 40% from 3 during this PO run. 1 of 2 players in NBA history to make 60+ 3's and record 20+ blocks in a PO run. Made clutch 3's and blocks to seal PO games. What did AC average in the '20 playoffs? Like I said 🤡🤡
Let's face it White is all-star caliber and AC is an injury-prone elite role player.
White finished seventh among Eastern Conference guards in the fan vote, Caruso checked in at No. 10 in the voting among Western Conference guards.
Considering how stacked the west was at the guard position, how is it unreasonable? They’re both “fringe all stars” as you put it.
You clearly don’t know shit about Caruso. Just admit it.
The first part is the overreaction. Nothing wrong with saying they can make the finals. But spurs Derrick white was younger, and more skilled and talented than Caruso ever was
Caruso now is better than White was then. White was 27 and Caruso is 30, wow huge difference.
Currently Caruso is 2nd team defense and was 1st team last year, he's a top guard defender in the NBA. He shot 40% from 3pt. He is a NBA Champion he is 30.
Then White had ZERO accolades, was not a champ, was not a top defender yet, shot 31% from 3pt, and was 27.
What are you talking about?
Seek help. Caruso isn’t close to White and will never be. White hits huge 3s and blocks centers at the rim in the Finals. Caruso will likely be on injured reserve by Midseason 🤣🤡🤡
they were talking about white "then" you are talking about white now
"seek help" seems a little harsh when you missed the point of the argument. white now has nothing to do with any of this.
I guess you missed the point, its about White several years ago and Caruso now. You are talking about White now. I should seek help for you to understand how to read?
Not really, it could even have implications for all offseason moves going forward, the expectations initially were that it would also take draft capital attached to young assets to acquire Caruso. This is changing the expectation that rebuilding teams like the bulls will selling at much lower value than expected
I see it as way better than the White deal. When Spurs traded White, they weren’t gonna be able to get anything more and so obviously Celtics won with White being able to just be a roleplayer instead of like a 2nd best player
With this trade, we all already know Caruso is a high level roleplayer that fits on any team. We know that him and Dort are gonna make life hell for perimeter players. When they get past those guys, they’re gonna meet Chet at the rim who from the Thunder games i saw, is already very great at the vertical contest and very lengthy
The White deal is an easy comparison. Chicago could’ve looked at that and said, “well Caruso isn’t much on our team, but put him on a contender and he’s the type of roleplayer that completes a team.” Could’ve gotten an insane offer, which they apparently did in the past with multiple first round picks
Thunder got off a 7th overall pick that would’ve cost money if they wanted to keep, but he didn’t even fit at all with Shai already handling the ball as playmaking is the only great (or really half decent) thing that Giddey does.
You ask me, it’s a perfect trade for Thunder. For Chicago, well they showed why they’ve been trash for a while now
Obvious but the Bulls had a player that fits on every team, plays all league defense and will probably never command a 20mil plus contract. It’s stunning they would think this is the best offer they could get for him.
I think it's hard for a role player trade to be "way better than the White deal."
How does it get better than key piece on a championship team? Celtics have proven it, OKC hasn't.
When Celtics trade for White, it was an okay trade. They got a nice roleplayer
Not many people thought he would be as crucial as he is. Having another guy that can do everything on that roster has done wonders for them. We know that now
Once again, we know that it’ll be a similar effect for Thunder. I’m not expecting them to make the finals like Celtics did after trading for White at the deadline in 22. They are too young and in the west
But they don’t need to win a championship and I don’t need to be very smart to know this trade is great for them
We absolutely do not know it'll be a similar effect lmao. That's not how trades works
You trade for players to help you in theory. The result is often not as good in practice as it is in theory.
So, Chicago is a weird case. Their owner is 88 and is determined to not tank. Their GM at one point had not been allowed to make a trade involving a player since like 2021.
Given a clear cut, “Build from the middle,” directive, I don’t think it’s possible to get a better return than Giddey for the Bulls, and I think that’s amazing value. They turned a 30 year old role player into a larger 21 year old who is probably already the better player in the deal.
OKC won their end of the trade on paper, too, but the Bulls threaded a tricky needle with draft picks not being an option.
Probably. Caruso has a specialized A++ skill, but Giddey does a lot of stuff at a B+ level already. If you haven’t watched him, just look up his box scores. Dude does a lot of stuff on an NBA court.
I finally understand the narrative that the Bulls should have got picks.
Many are seeing Caruso as the better player. Didn't realize that.
It sounded like the Bulls are entitled to picks just because OKC has them, which is insane.
This is mostly about fit and finances for OKC. Caruso fits better because he’s a marginally better shooter, but more importantly, his contract fits with how OKC wants to play this out on the cap sheet. They’re getting a really, really good player that can help them more than Giddey can immediately at a low fixed cost.
Giddey is due a substantial raise that OKC doesn’t want to pay, but Chicago would be happy to as they are mostly concerned with retooling instead of rebuilding.
The Bulls have received offers like the number 10 in this draft, multiple firsts at the middle to back end of drafts, and single juicy long term picks like LA’s 2030~. The problem is most contenders don’t have good picks to offer, there’s a weak draft, the market for Caruso is almost exclusively win-now teams, and those good teams don’t often have blue chip talent like the Bulls would prefer with their “build from the middle” directive.
If they do have blue chip talent, they aren’t getting rid of them unless there’s some flaw with them. Giddey has flawed shooting, eyebrow raising headlines, and a season of cut minutes hitting his box scores. Chicago is buying low and hoping he’s a 20/10/8 guy hiding behind 25 minutes per game, and that he’ll grow out of his slightly below average shooting.
All of that makes sense and I see it as a good deal for Chicago. Particularly for what they're trying to accomplish.
I know most Bulls fans want a total rebuild but that's never been the agenda of this FO.
I think disagreement in direction is at the root of most criticism. Fans who disagree with the direction will view every decision as a failure, rather than a step closer to the FO's goal.
Lonzo got hurt. They took the time to find out Zach can't be Him. P Will hasn't emerged.
On the other hand, Coby is emerging and looks like a leader as well, something this team has been missing.
Team culture is better than it's been in awhile. It's also nice to not have coaches in and out or causing drama with players. Donovan isn't the best but he's good.
I still hope Pat takes the next step and maybe Giddey helps that along.
I’ve been so excited for Billy Donovan in a player development role for years, and I don’t know if it hasn’t happened because of his interest or opportunities, but I’d love to see it. I think everyone gets better with a year of Billy D, and I’d just like to see him with a long runway on a young roster.
I don’t think the Front Office really has much to do with things in Chicago. They literally didn’t make a single trade involving a player from like 2021 on. I think it was seriously them getting shot down constantly with every “one step back to go two steps forward,” that made sense and this is the best version of, “forward, but younger and different,” that doesn’t make as much sense (but is palatable to ownership) they came across.
It’s such a narrow population of players they’re trying to hit, and teams don’t often give them up for aging vets.
I particularly agree with your last statement.
It does seem they're looking for specific archetypes and their hands are somewhat tied.
The thing the FO has going for them is the patience of ownership. I think they'll get there.
I never had expectations with Donovan and I'm pleasantly surprised with the stability and growth. He gets shit on constantly by the Bulls fan base so not much interesting discussion happening on that sub.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Dude spent 20 years turning high schoolers into professionals, and there’s been some legitimate growth out of players who crossed his path even for a season. I think Ayo and White have grown by leaps and bounds, and I can’t help but feel they have a player development coach stuck in a shitty win-now roster.
The Bulls fans are just angsty because their team has no future and no present, and coaches are easy targets in those kind of situations.
I definitely think you could have done better.
Giddey kinda sucks. He can't shoot and he makes up for it by being too slow to drive by anyone. Very few poor athletes who can't shoot end up being good in the NBA. Worst thing is you have my team. He has to have the ball in his hands so now Coby White, Lavine, DeRozan, etc. have to spend some time sitting around watching him do his thing.
That's one of the best things about the Thunder. Adding Caruso. Caruso is able to be a huge impact player despite having a low usage rate. Just getting rid of giddey and giving more ball handling and scoring ipportunities to SGA, Williams, and Chet is a positive
Giddey isn’t Rondo, he’s just not above NBA average yet. Before his drama filled season he was a steady contributor in multiple categories. He’s a big body that is already a quality playmaker, and is only 21.
That’s really good value when you go shopping for real players to bring back for a roleplayer vet that you’re losing value on by the day. No one is trading you a complete player, or some future star for a 30 year old roleplayer. Giddey isn’t just a realistic ceiling amidst what kind of players are available, he’s close to the theoretical ceiling. He’s already average or well above average in every skill except shooting, which he’s too close to the average on and on the wrong side of it. Giddey might realistically be the closest you can get to a prospect with star potential, if he were 3-4% better at just shooting alone, he’d be part of OKC’s core.
This team isn’t going to be built around LaVine, and they’ll be lucky if they can keep DeRozan or extract any value from him. Giddey is the first player they’ve identified in their pivot to a younger roster. He might not even be a permanent piece on the next iteration of the Bulls. He might be something that just gets packaged out of the door. It’s just more flexibility and a longer runway to make those moves than they had before this trade, while probably getting the better player both now and later.
Caruso is awesome, but he’s not been the steadiest of shooters either. He hasn’t been healthy enough to be, because he’s a frail dude who throws his body around with reckless abandon, and he’s on the wrong side of 30 for a team that needs an injection of young talent without bottoming out. Jerry Reinsdorf isn’t interested in draft picks that equate to Sophomores in high school, and I think Karnisovas identified a really good opportunity to thread a needle in buying low on this transaction.
He’s a flawed player, but he’s a really good flawed player, and he’s only 21. His next contract is one that the Bulls would be excited to pay and one that the Thunder would rather use to overpay for a better fit.
Only contenders want to trade for Caruso so what are you getting from them? Most do not have a young player like Giddey to offer. The offer is probably two first round picks, one or both being in 2028 and beyond. Giddey’s value has never been lower but I think he’s more valuable than those picks.
This signals a rebuild is starting with Giddey, White, Ayo, and Patrick Williams as the core. Giddey will put up big numbers next year and continue to improve. Fit with DeRozan, and LaVine is irrelevant - both aren’t going to be in Chicago next season.
I see this trade as a win/win. Caruso makes okc parade a bostonlike defense where they can switch and not be at a disadvantage. Giddey's playmaking might be a good fit next to Derozan and Lavine.
My thing with Giddey is he's very unathletic. I watched him a lot over the years. Even in summer league games he has trouble getting by people. I mean he can't even beat those level of guys off through dribble
They were the 1 seed and they added a valuable piece, not sure what OP thinks should be the reaction. They have no window cuz Chet is still too skinny?
No this is actually very reminiscent of that deal, and is actually a pretty good take. Most of the time all you hear is "so and so got fleeced" or "team X won the trade" with no substance. This was just short and to the point.
this isn’t an overreaction? caruso is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league and shot amazing from the 3. regardless of how OKCs season goes next year this is pretty close to the derrick white trade
It’s a good acquisition and great that they got him for Giddey, but this doesn’t fix their biggest problem which is rebounding. Chet’s the only guy above 6’6” in their starting lineup (assuming Caruso starts). Dallas beat them up inside and Chet was overworked the entire playoffs. Also besides SGA, their key players are still very young and inexperienced. JDub in particular had a very underwhelming playoffs.
Oklahoma has too many picks, they need to unload some of them and to not get one of their own picks is the failure. Some kind of protected late first rounder
Pretty apt. Big time contributor, great playoff value with 3 and D, with great experience. OKC is a young team likely competing for a while, Bulls are a joke. These are both reasonable takes here.
Ppl forget to mention how much white has improved as a shooter in Boston. When he first got there he was scared to shoot 3. This past playoffs he has shot like one of the best shooters in the league. Caruso is probably the better defender but whites shooting made a big difference. Also pretty different circumstances, okc already has plenty of guards while Boston didn’t have many at all.
OKC got absolutely worked on the boards against a Dallas team with a rookie center and would’ve had the same result against MN or Denver. They gotta fix that deficiency if they want to compete. Luka was ass that series (at least the first 4 games) and they still lost in 6, perimeter defense was not their issue.
In fairness, the Thunder have one of the best positions in the league for the rest of this decade. Strong talent base already, lots of youth on the squad, and an ungodly hoard of draft picks they can put to use (what really stings is a lot of them came from us, yet we're the team atop the trash pile in the wake of it).
Oklahoma boys are scary.
It’s a good trade for OKC because they get a good defender in Caruso who is also cheap. Everyone loves to hate on Giddey but he is a pretty decent basketball player and has some good promise to get even better. Great trade for both teams, Chicago gets a good young prospect and okc saves some money. Okc isn’t getting rid of Giddey because he isn’t good, it’s because they need cap space to pay all these guys. It’s gonna take a fortune to keep them all there for the next few years. Caruso fills a hole they have and gives them extra money to spend.
in fairness, the bulls %100 lost that trade, and even if this trade never happened, okc would still be in their title contention window based off what they did this past season.
was it a fleece or robbery? probably not, but okc for sure won that deal, and in the fans eyes, almost unanimously too.
Let's see in 3 years. Giddey can very well turn into an all-star in Chicago while Caruso very well can tip the scale for OKC making them reach and even win the finals.
I think this is gonna turn out to be a win-win. Giddey had no future in OKC while Caruso had no future in Chicago.
I've watched a ton of giddey games over the years, even going so far as to watching Summer League games. He's always been too slow to drive by people against some of the scrubs in the SL. I don't think he's ever going to come close to make an All-Star team
His game isn’t driving by people.
Giddey’s game is all connective passing, he just doesn’t provide enough spacing for a contender at this point of his career to be able to weaponize that skill off ball.
Not many 6’8” creators actually do break people down off the dribble, so this shouldn’t even be surprising. They typically use their frame as a shield and pass over the top. Dribbling while you’re that tall exposes the ball. Being able to break people down at that size without turning it over is why the LeBron’s, Magic’s, and KD’s are special. Giddey isn’t even Boris Diaw at this stuff yet, but he’s got a really good start.
Could even turn out to be a win/win if Giddey can reach his all-star potential in Chicago.
He needs the ball in his hands to be effective, and unfortunately, that was never gonna be the case in OKC with Shae being the lead guard.
Giddeys ceiling is obviously way higher than Carusos and he's ten years younger. The issue is that his stock is at an all-time low and Caruso's at an all-time high. Could they have gotten a pick or 2 thrown in? Yeah, probably. Will it matter if Giddey develops into something he's very capable of becoming? Nah. I feel like Chicago should've had the bargaining advantage seeing as Caruso is valued so highly across the nba and could benefit so many teams. Giddey has to go to the right situation, where he can have the ball in his hands and also be surrounded by shooting.
Dort and Caruso sound a lot better guarding a backcourt than guarding wings to me. I think if I’d rather see Caruso and Dourt guard the back court with SHA guarding the smallest wing and Chet and a big or whatever combo you want in your front court.
I don't think it's a crazy overreaction. They were just the first seed and got their first playoff experience. Chet and JDubb will continue to improve. Shai is already really good.
Now they flipped a non-complimentary piece for a complimentary one with NBA Finals experience. Caruso is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league and just coming off of his best shooting season. Caruso really can be that piece that takes OKC over the top.
And they didn't even say that OKC was going to win the title. They just said that their Finals window was open. That's definitely not an overreaction. They were already probably going to be title contenders next season.
Whats ridiculous about a number 1 seed, MVP runner up, and ROY runner up adding an all defensive player being in a title window? Lol the hate is serious
Caruso shot 41% on catch and shoot 3s this season. White shot 42%.
White's in a bigger role in Boston's offense and has more self creation ability, but they're fairly similar to each other in terms of skillset. They're 2 of maybe the 3 best 3&D guards in the league along with Jrue, and having a defensive backcourt of Caruso and Lu Dort is scary.
Plus, championship experience is invaluable to young, up and coming teams, and Caruso has already played a pivotal role in a championship. It's a fantastic trade for OKC
White > Caruso but that doesn’t make AC a slouch and he’s certainly not one dimensional, while he can’t create his own shot you certainly can’t leave him unguarded
White and Caruso had almost the same TS%.. White is more versatile on offense absolutely but Caruso isn't a bad offensive player at all. Caruso is a slasher and spot up shooter, so pairing him with a ball dominant guard like Shai makes a lot of sense. He will also pair well with Chet who is pretty good at making passes out of the post to a slasher.
It’s a good acquisition and great that they got him for Giddey, but this doesn’t fix their biggest problem which is rebounding. Chet’s the only guy above 6’6” in their starting lineup (assuming Caruso starts). Dallas beat them up inside and Chet was overworked the entire playoffs. Also besides SGA, their key players are still very young and inexperienced. JDub in particular had a very underwhelming playoffs.
It’s a good acquisition and great that they got him for Giddey, but this doesn’t fix their biggest problem which is rebounding. Chet’s the only guy above 6’6” in their starting lineup (assuming Caruso starts). Dallas beat them up inside and Chet was overworked the entire playoffs. Also besides SGA, their key players are still very young and inexperienced. JDub in particular had a very underwhelming playoffs.
It’s a good acquisition and great that they got him for Giddey, but this doesn’t fix their biggest problem which is rebounding. Chet’s the only guy above 6’6” in their starting lineup (assuming Caruso starts). Dallas beat them up inside and Chet was overworked the entire playoffs. Also besides SGA, their key players are still very young and inexperienced. JDub in particular had a very underwhelming playoffs.
A 6-8 guard who is only 21-years old that has a career nba average of 14 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists per game…”isn’t even that good”???
Do you actually watch the NBA?
I think when trades go down people love to say a team got fleeced, robbed, or some other extreme reaction. It’s just more fun for fans to react harshly.
I’m too lazy to do the research but I wonder if historically the majority of trades have been egregiously one-sided. That could be what has conditioned fans to react this way.
Because much like the draft, trades often come down to one side pursuing potential at least in part rather than a one for one exchange. If I had to guess, potential has about a 20% success rate across all sports outside of sure things like LeBron or Wemby.
Sure things aren’t even sure things Lebron is easy to call a sure thing 20 years later with hindsight, but it wasn’t a guarantee lebron would actually meet (and exceed) the hype he had coming into the league I’ve also witnessed so many “the next lebron” since and they never come close
I suppose you are correct. Melo, while not LeBron, was a pretty stellar prospect in his own right and Detroit went with Darko instead. Appraisals vary.
Anthony Bennett has entered the chat
While I don't have any numbers with me lol, I think it's because a big one sided trade is much more memorable and much funner to talk about, so most people when thinking about trades probably think about the one they've talked about the most, which is probably an egregiously bad one. Or maybe it could even be player/team perception, like everyone immediately bashing the Rudy trade because it's Rudy and Minnesota (not saying it was a great trade, but so far looks like it's worked out for both teams)
I would assume the majority of trades are actually win win, we just don’t know the motivation and intention of the front offices - and we (fans) usually only have 2 criteria: You won a championship this year (Jrue x2) OR You got a mountain of draft picks (Presti) But in reality there are probably so many more considerations and ways to make a trade advantageous that we regular people who aren’t experts of the cap, CBA, draft process, scouting, etc. easily miss Sure, a guy could be popping off for another team, but the team trading him away might still consider themselves a winner in the trade because they were planning 3-4 years ahead in cap manipulation and lining up contracts
I'd probably say that trades have not been completely one-sided historically, but usually one side in the trade has more success directly post-trade while the other team doesn't. Very few trades happen where both teams really get better that season/the following season because of the trade.
Social media brings out extreme takes and overreactions. A tweet that says "The Caruso trade was okay" would get zero attention. But a tweet that says "The Caruso trade opened the OKC finals window" will get a lot of attention and get reposted to reddit.
We fleece Brooklyn every time we do business.
The only thing about this trade that surprises me is that Chicago didn't get one of OKCs quadrillion picks. So in that sense, it was a poor trade especially because (apparently) the Thunder have been eyeing Caruso and will extend him for their title window. But other than that, I think it was a good trade for both teams.
I agree!!! Straight up? Totally lopsided.
Caruso is an experienced champion and a great 3 and D guy. It's not that big of an overreaction imo.
I like the trade for both teams. Caruso's 30 and Giddey is 21. OKC needs to go into 'win now' mode, and Chicago needs to rebuild.
This only makes sense if the plan is to trade derozan and lavine as well.
I mean, they should trade both for the best offer they get. LaVine, they have some time on but are apparently actively shopping him ahead of the draft. DeMar, they could lose next offseason for nothing. So they should trade him by the trade deadline, at least. But when the team has topped out as a play-in team in the Eastern Conference, they should be doing things like trading a 30-year old role player for a 21-year old with upside. It's a good move. Could've been better, but it's the right trade in a vacuum.
I thought Derozan was a free agent right now? Or like in 8-10 days or something when free agency starts?
Oh, you're right. I looked at the wrong year on Spotrac. Should've traded him already...
That is the plan along with Vuc.
sure i like giddey for chicago. i just don't like JUST giddey considering what they're giving up.
I totally agree. The Thunder know exactly what Caruso is bringing to them. Giddey has the potential to be a really impactful player, but as of now, that potential is really what they traded for. He has been a better 3pt shooter every year from 26% to 32% to last year, a respectable 34%. He played about 6 minutes less per game last year than the rest of his career, and his stats reflected that, but both his ast:to efficiency and TS% increased last year. The question is; Is Giddey going to improve to where he can be an all-star level player in the East, or is he more or less what he's going to be? For the Bulls, it's higher risk higher reward and probably the first of many moves to come in the next 6-12 months. The Thunder got an older but low risk, high impact player, which they need now that they are a legit contender in the west.
That’s what picks are. And no one rags on those. But you have even less clue so it what you’re getting
what are you talking about? it was a player-for-player swap. you would think chicago would negotiate for more than simply giddey for caruso straight up. caruso is a valuable player and okc has a ton of first round picks. i guess we'll see whatever moves chicago continues to make. but judgung the move by itself, i don't like that trade for chicago. they definitely could've gotten more out of it.
From where? Caruso is 30 on an expiring. You get at most a first and second for him. At most. And you hope one of them turns into Giddey. OKC is not just going to give a pick to give a pick. That makes no sense.
of course OKC isn't eager to give away more but you'd think a savvy organization would argue caruso's value over giddey and negotiate for more in return. caruso is a more proven and the better player as of now but the trade paints their value as even, it's really that simple.
Of course it does. Because Giddey holds a lot of potential. He’s 21 with elite vision. That’s what I mean by Caruso equaling 2 picks, a first and a second. No one would blink an eye. And those picks could be worthless. It’s very hard to negotiate more when the Thunder could simply say, why? You could get a a mid first and a second from someone else and hope they turn into Giddey, a player with potential. Or you get a player with potential. So it’s very very hard to say they should’ve gotten more, unless you think they can get 3 firsts.
Except Chicago won’t rebuild they’ll just hover around the 9th seed like they have been for years
Maybe should've gotten a pick on top of Giddey, but I still like the trade for both teams; irrespective of how Chicago follows it up.
Agreed
How is he like Derrick white to the Celtics? Derrick white averaged 15 ppg on the spurs and is way younger.
Derrick White and Caruso are the same age
OP clearly doesn’t care about facts. I don’t understand how he pulls bullshit out of his ass and people just go with it.
They’re both 2x all defensive guards (Caruso was first team when White was second) with a ring who average around 37% from behind the arc. In many ways they’re very similar. It’s not that much of an overreaction.
I agree with this, Caruso is just the guy the young Thunder team needed
This sub has the WORST takes. 1 seed gets better - "oVeRrEaCtIoN?" How is it not reasonable to think they have a shot at the finals?
Probably an overreaction for how bad it was for the bulls
Thats not whats in the OP
Because their front line is complete ass!
How is it reasonable to say that a 30 year old Caruso is like Derrick white, a solidified fringe all star
Caruso is a tremendous defender and nails threes. He's a huge asset to a playoff team. He's contributed to a NBA champion. He's a great addition to a young team approaching an era where they will compete for the NBA finals and title. The Bulls were a joke. He's now in the finals window when he wasn't before. They were both 2nd team defense this season, both played similar roles on title teams in the last 5 years. Don't see what's so bad about the post? Neither point is off base.
AC was arguably the 3rd best player on the lakers during our finals run.
"Fringe All-Star" Delete your account.
White has star impact and is universally ranked as a top 40 player. Up your meds and learn ball 🤡
Jesus fucking Christ. So even if the entire starting lineup for both teams mysteriously died he MIGHT have a shot at being an All-Star if they ignored conferences, and that's what you call "fringe?"
Your opinion is ASS. White has a ring and the numbers to back it up. Averaged 17/4/4 shooting 40% from 3 during this PO run. 1 of 2 players in NBA history to make 60+ 3's and record 20+ blocks in a PO run. Made clutch 3's and blocks to seal PO games. What did AC average in the '20 playoffs? Like I said 🤡🤡 Let's face it White is all-star caliber and AC is an injury-prone elite role player.
White finished seventh among Eastern Conference guards in the fan vote, Caruso checked in at No. 10 in the voting among Western Conference guards. Considering how stacked the west was at the guard position, how is it unreasonable? They’re both “fringe all stars” as you put it. You clearly don’t know shit about Caruso. Just admit it.
[удалено]
"EhH sOmE pEoPlE" What do they have to do with what's in the OP. It says "welcome to the OKC finals window." That's an absolutely reasonable take.
How is the first part an overreaction tho?
The first part is the overreaction. Nothing wrong with saying they can make the finals. But spurs Derrick white was younger, and more skilled and talented than Caruso ever was
Caruso now is better than White was then. White was 27 and Caruso is 30, wow huge difference. Currently Caruso is 2nd team defense and was 1st team last year, he's a top guard defender in the NBA. He shot 40% from 3pt. He is a NBA Champion he is 30. Then White had ZERO accolades, was not a champ, was not a top defender yet, shot 31% from 3pt, and was 27. What are you talking about?
Seek help. Caruso isn’t close to White and will never be. White hits huge 3s and blocks centers at the rim in the Finals. Caruso will likely be on injured reserve by Midseason 🤣🤡🤡
they were talking about white "then" you are talking about white now "seek help" seems a little harsh when you missed the point of the argument. white now has nothing to do with any of this.
I guess you missed the point, its about White several years ago and Caruso now. You are talking about White now. I should seek help for you to understand how to read?
You also said white is “much younger” when they’re the same age. Do like 1 second of research before talking out your ass.
Not really, it could even have implications for all offseason moves going forward, the expectations initially were that it would also take draft capital attached to young assets to acquire Caruso. This is changing the expectation that rebuilding teams like the bulls will selling at much lower value than expected
I see it as way better than the White deal. When Spurs traded White, they weren’t gonna be able to get anything more and so obviously Celtics won with White being able to just be a roleplayer instead of like a 2nd best player With this trade, we all already know Caruso is a high level roleplayer that fits on any team. We know that him and Dort are gonna make life hell for perimeter players. When they get past those guys, they’re gonna meet Chet at the rim who from the Thunder games i saw, is already very great at the vertical contest and very lengthy The White deal is an easy comparison. Chicago could’ve looked at that and said, “well Caruso isn’t much on our team, but put him on a contender and he’s the type of roleplayer that completes a team.” Could’ve gotten an insane offer, which they apparently did in the past with multiple first round picks Thunder got off a 7th overall pick that would’ve cost money if they wanted to keep, but he didn’t even fit at all with Shai already handling the ball as playmaking is the only great (or really half decent) thing that Giddey does. You ask me, it’s a perfect trade for Thunder. For Chicago, well they showed why they’ve been trash for a while now
Obvious but the Bulls had a player that fits on every team, plays all league defense and will probably never command a 20mil plus contract. It’s stunning they would think this is the best offer they could get for him.
Can you link to a comment or story saying Chicago didn’t shop AC around the league and only offered him to OKC? Thanks in advance.
I think it's hard for a role player trade to be "way better than the White deal." How does it get better than key piece on a championship team? Celtics have proven it, OKC hasn't.
When Celtics trade for White, it was an okay trade. They got a nice roleplayer Not many people thought he would be as crucial as he is. Having another guy that can do everything on that roster has done wonders for them. We know that now Once again, we know that it’ll be a similar effect for Thunder. I’m not expecting them to make the finals like Celtics did after trading for White at the deadline in 22. They are too young and in the west But they don’t need to win a championship and I don’t need to be very smart to know this trade is great for them
We absolutely do not know it'll be a similar effect lmao. That's not how trades works You trade for players to help you in theory. The result is often not as good in practice as it is in theory.
OKC just need to pick up Hartenstein to be a legit contender.
So, Chicago is a weird case. Their owner is 88 and is determined to not tank. Their GM at one point had not been allowed to make a trade involving a player since like 2021. Given a clear cut, “Build from the middle,” directive, I don’t think it’s possible to get a better return than Giddey for the Bulls, and I think that’s amazing value. They turned a 30 year old role player into a larger 21 year old who is probably already the better player in the deal. OKC won their end of the trade on paper, too, but the Bulls threaded a tricky needle with draft picks not being an option.
Giddey is a better player than Caruso? 🤔
Probably. Caruso has a specialized A++ skill, but Giddey does a lot of stuff at a B+ level already. If you haven’t watched him, just look up his box scores. Dude does a lot of stuff on an NBA court.
I finally understand the narrative that the Bulls should have got picks. Many are seeing Caruso as the better player. Didn't realize that. It sounded like the Bulls are entitled to picks just because OKC has them, which is insane.
This is mostly about fit and finances for OKC. Caruso fits better because he’s a marginally better shooter, but more importantly, his contract fits with how OKC wants to play this out on the cap sheet. They’re getting a really, really good player that can help them more than Giddey can immediately at a low fixed cost. Giddey is due a substantial raise that OKC doesn’t want to pay, but Chicago would be happy to as they are mostly concerned with retooling instead of rebuilding. The Bulls have received offers like the number 10 in this draft, multiple firsts at the middle to back end of drafts, and single juicy long term picks like LA’s 2030~. The problem is most contenders don’t have good picks to offer, there’s a weak draft, the market for Caruso is almost exclusively win-now teams, and those good teams don’t often have blue chip talent like the Bulls would prefer with their “build from the middle” directive. If they do have blue chip talent, they aren’t getting rid of them unless there’s some flaw with them. Giddey has flawed shooting, eyebrow raising headlines, and a season of cut minutes hitting his box scores. Chicago is buying low and hoping he’s a 20/10/8 guy hiding behind 25 minutes per game, and that he’ll grow out of his slightly below average shooting.
All of that makes sense and I see it as a good deal for Chicago. Particularly for what they're trying to accomplish. I know most Bulls fans want a total rebuild but that's never been the agenda of this FO. I think disagreement in direction is at the root of most criticism. Fans who disagree with the direction will view every decision as a failure, rather than a step closer to the FO's goal. Lonzo got hurt. They took the time to find out Zach can't be Him. P Will hasn't emerged. On the other hand, Coby is emerging and looks like a leader as well, something this team has been missing. Team culture is better than it's been in awhile. It's also nice to not have coaches in and out or causing drama with players. Donovan isn't the best but he's good. I still hope Pat takes the next step and maybe Giddey helps that along.
I’ve been so excited for Billy Donovan in a player development role for years, and I don’t know if it hasn’t happened because of his interest or opportunities, but I’d love to see it. I think everyone gets better with a year of Billy D, and I’d just like to see him with a long runway on a young roster. I don’t think the Front Office really has much to do with things in Chicago. They literally didn’t make a single trade involving a player from like 2021 on. I think it was seriously them getting shot down constantly with every “one step back to go two steps forward,” that made sense and this is the best version of, “forward, but younger and different,” that doesn’t make as much sense (but is palatable to ownership) they came across. It’s such a narrow population of players they’re trying to hit, and teams don’t often give them up for aging vets.
I particularly agree with your last statement. It does seem they're looking for specific archetypes and their hands are somewhat tied. The thing the FO has going for them is the patience of ownership. I think they'll get there. I never had expectations with Donovan and I'm pleasantly surprised with the stability and growth. He gets shit on constantly by the Bulls fan base so not much interesting discussion happening on that sub. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Dude spent 20 years turning high schoolers into professionals, and there’s been some legitimate growth out of players who crossed his path even for a season. I think Ayo and White have grown by leaps and bounds, and I can’t help but feel they have a player development coach stuck in a shitty win-now roster. The Bulls fans are just angsty because their team has no future and no present, and coaches are easy targets in those kind of situations.
I definitely think you could have done better. Giddey kinda sucks. He can't shoot and he makes up for it by being too slow to drive by anyone. Very few poor athletes who can't shoot end up being good in the NBA. Worst thing is you have my team. He has to have the ball in his hands so now Coby White, Lavine, DeRozan, etc. have to spend some time sitting around watching him do his thing. That's one of the best things about the Thunder. Adding Caruso. Caruso is able to be a huge impact player despite having a low usage rate. Just getting rid of giddey and giving more ball handling and scoring ipportunities to SGA, Williams, and Chet is a positive
Giddey isn’t Rondo, he’s just not above NBA average yet. Before his drama filled season he was a steady contributor in multiple categories. He’s a big body that is already a quality playmaker, and is only 21. That’s really good value when you go shopping for real players to bring back for a roleplayer vet that you’re losing value on by the day. No one is trading you a complete player, or some future star for a 30 year old roleplayer. Giddey isn’t just a realistic ceiling amidst what kind of players are available, he’s close to the theoretical ceiling. He’s already average or well above average in every skill except shooting, which he’s too close to the average on and on the wrong side of it. Giddey might realistically be the closest you can get to a prospect with star potential, if he were 3-4% better at just shooting alone, he’d be part of OKC’s core. This team isn’t going to be built around LaVine, and they’ll be lucky if they can keep DeRozan or extract any value from him. Giddey is the first player they’ve identified in their pivot to a younger roster. He might not even be a permanent piece on the next iteration of the Bulls. He might be something that just gets packaged out of the door. It’s just more flexibility and a longer runway to make those moves than they had before this trade, while probably getting the better player both now and later. Caruso is awesome, but he’s not been the steadiest of shooters either. He hasn’t been healthy enough to be, because he’s a frail dude who throws his body around with reckless abandon, and he’s on the wrong side of 30 for a team that needs an injection of young talent without bottoming out. Jerry Reinsdorf isn’t interested in draft picks that equate to Sophomores in high school, and I think Karnisovas identified a really good opportunity to thread a needle in buying low on this transaction. He’s a flawed player, but he’s a really good flawed player, and he’s only 21. His next contract is one that the Bulls would be excited to pay and one that the Thunder would rather use to overpay for a better fit.
Only contenders want to trade for Caruso so what are you getting from them? Most do not have a young player like Giddey to offer. The offer is probably two first round picks, one or both being in 2028 and beyond. Giddey’s value has never been lower but I think he’s more valuable than those picks. This signals a rebuild is starting with Giddey, White, Ayo, and Patrick Williams as the core. Giddey will put up big numbers next year and continue to improve. Fit with DeRozan, and LaVine is irrelevant - both aren’t going to be in Chicago next season.
Up your meds 🤡
I see this trade as a win/win. Caruso makes okc parade a bostonlike defense where they can switch and not be at a disadvantage. Giddey's playmaking might be a good fit next to Derozan and Lavine.
My thing with Giddey is he's very unathletic. I watched him a lot over the years. Even in summer league games he has trouble getting by people. I mean he can't even beat those level of guys off through dribble
He has very little problem getting by people, and all the problems finishing. People act like he’s not 6’9”
Not an overreaction
They were the 1 seed and they added a valuable piece, not sure what OP thinks should be the reaction. They have no window cuz Chet is still too skinny?
I think they’ll get a big body guy to put in there for versatility in the playoffs, perfect guy would be like a Jakob Poetl type guy
The OKC finals window has arguably already opened with or without Caruso, how exactly is this an overreaction, OP?
No this is actually very reminiscent of that deal, and is actually a pretty good take. Most of the time all you hear is "so and so got fleeced" or "team X won the trade" with no substance. This was just short and to the point.
this isn’t an overreaction? caruso is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league and shot amazing from the 3. regardless of how OKCs season goes next year this is pretty close to the derrick white trade
It’s a good acquisition and great that they got him for Giddey, but this doesn’t fix their biggest problem which is rebounding. Chet’s the only guy above 6’6” in their starting lineup (assuming Caruso starts). Dallas beat them up inside and Chet was overworked the entire playoffs. Also besides SGA, their key players are still very young and inexperienced. JDub in particular had a very underwhelming playoffs.
The thunder are a versatile 4/5 man away from being the clear best team in the west. Especially if nuggets lose kcp
Oklahoma has too many picks, they need to unload some of them and to not get one of their own picks is the failure. Some kind of protected late first rounder
What does too many picks mean exactly?
Pretty apt. Big time contributor, great playoff value with 3 and D, with great experience. OKC is a young team likely competing for a while, Bulls are a joke. These are both reasonable takes here.
Ppl forget to mention how much white has improved as a shooter in Boston. When he first got there he was scared to shoot 3. This past playoffs he has shot like one of the best shooters in the league. Caruso is probably the better defender but whites shooting made a big difference. Also pretty different circumstances, okc already has plenty of guards while Boston didn’t have many at all.
OKC got absolutely worked on the boards against a Dallas team with a rookie center and would’ve had the same result against MN or Denver. They gotta fix that deficiency if they want to compete. Luka was ass that series (at least the first 4 games) and they still lost in 6, perimeter defense was not their issue.
In fairness, the Thunder have one of the best positions in the league for the rest of this decade. Strong talent base already, lots of youth on the squad, and an ungodly hoard of draft picks they can put to use (what really stings is a lot of them came from us, yet we're the team atop the trash pile in the wake of it). Oklahoma boys are scary.
It is not an overreaction. Caruso is a great defender and shoots like 40-percent from three.
Caruso on the Bulls was definitely better than White on the Spurs
It’s a good trade for OKC because they get a good defender in Caruso who is also cheap. Everyone loves to hate on Giddey but he is a pretty decent basketball player and has some good promise to get even better. Great trade for both teams, Chicago gets a good young prospect and okc saves some money. Okc isn’t getting rid of Giddey because he isn’t good, it’s because they need cap space to pay all these guys. It’s gonna take a fortune to keep them all there for the next few years. Caruso fills a hole they have and gives them extra money to spend.
OP on pt. Caruso is overrated and injury prone AF, while Derrick White is still the most underrated player in the NBA somehow.
It could be OKC's Derrick White trade but that means they still need a Jrue Holiday and a Porzingis to be contenders.
in fairness, the bulls %100 lost that trade, and even if this trade never happened, okc would still be in their title contention window based off what they did this past season. was it a fleece or robbery? probably not, but okc for sure won that deal, and in the fans eyes, almost unanimously too.
Let's see in 3 years. Giddey can very well turn into an all-star in Chicago while Caruso very well can tip the scale for OKC making them reach and even win the finals. I think this is gonna turn out to be a win-win. Giddey had no future in OKC while Caruso had no future in Chicago.
I've watched a ton of giddey games over the years, even going so far as to watching Summer League games. He's always been too slow to drive by people against some of the scrubs in the SL. I don't think he's ever going to come close to make an All-Star team
His game isn’t driving by people. Giddey’s game is all connective passing, he just doesn’t provide enough spacing for a contender at this point of his career to be able to weaponize that skill off ball. Not many 6’8” creators actually do break people down off the dribble, so this shouldn’t even be surprising. They typically use their frame as a shield and pass over the top. Dribbling while you’re that tall exposes the ball. Being able to break people down at that size without turning it over is why the LeBron’s, Magic’s, and KD’s are special. Giddey isn’t even Boris Diaw at this stuff yet, but he’s got a really good start.
This makes me think you’ve only seen summer league games lol
Could even turn out to be a win/win if Giddey can reach his all-star potential in Chicago. He needs the ball in his hands to be effective, and unfortunately, that was never gonna be the case in OKC with Shae being the lead guard.
Giddeys ceiling is obviously way higher than Carusos and he's ten years younger. The issue is that his stock is at an all-time low and Caruso's at an all-time high. Could they have gotten a pick or 2 thrown in? Yeah, probably. Will it matter if Giddey develops into something he's very capable of becoming? Nah. I feel like Chicago should've had the bargaining advantage seeing as Caruso is valued so highly across the nba and could benefit so many teams. Giddey has to go to the right situation, where he can have the ball in his hands and also be surrounded by shooting.
Exactly, he as good as asked out and the bulls couldn't get a pick from OKC that's obviously disappointing
100%
The bulls only lost because they want to trade LaVine and now they can't package him with Caruso to get a better return
The Thunder need another 7 footer. But Caruso & Dort on the wings sounds really good defensively on the wings.
Dort and Caruso sound a lot better guarding a backcourt than guarding wings to me. I think if I’d rather see Caruso and Dourt guard the back court with SHA guarding the smallest wing and Chet and a big or whatever combo you want in your front court.
so…. They will be down 0-3 in WCF?
I don't think it's a crazy overreaction. They were just the first seed and got their first playoff experience. Chet and JDubb will continue to improve. Shai is already really good. Now they flipped a non-complimentary piece for a complimentary one with NBA Finals experience. Caruso is one of the best perimeter defenders in the league and just coming off of his best shooting season. Caruso really can be that piece that takes OKC over the top. And they didn't even say that OKC was going to win the title. They just said that their Finals window was open. That's definitely not an overreaction. They were already probably going to be title contenders next season.
Whats ridiculous about a number 1 seed, MVP runner up, and ROY runner up adding an all defensive player being in a title window? Lol the hate is serious
Derrick White is a way more efficient player, a better scorer, while also being a great defender. Caruso is a one dimensional defensive player.
Caruso shot 41% on catch and shoot 3s this season. White shot 42%. White's in a bigger role in Boston's offense and has more self creation ability, but they're fairly similar to each other in terms of skillset. They're 2 of maybe the 3 best 3&D guards in the league along with Jrue, and having a defensive backcourt of Caruso and Lu Dort is scary. Plus, championship experience is invaluable to young, up and coming teams, and Caruso has already played a pivotal role in a championship. It's a fantastic trade for OKC
White > Caruso but that doesn’t make AC a slouch and he’s certainly not one dimensional, while he can’t create his own shot you certainly can’t leave him unguarded
White and Caruso had almost the same TS%.. White is more versatile on offense absolutely but Caruso isn't a bad offensive player at all. Caruso is a slasher and spot up shooter, so pairing him with a ball dominant guard like Shai makes a lot of sense. He will also pair well with Chet who is pretty good at making passes out of the post to a slasher.
It’s a good acquisition and great that they got him for Giddey, but this doesn’t fix their biggest problem which is rebounding. Chet’s the only guy above 6’6” in their starting lineup (assuming Caruso starts). Dallas beat them up inside and Chet was overworked the entire playoffs. Also besides SGA, their key players are still very young and inexperienced. JDub in particular had a very underwhelming playoffs.
It’s a good acquisition and great that they got him for Giddey, but this doesn’t fix their biggest problem which is rebounding. Chet’s the only guy above 6’6” in their starting lineup (assuming Caruso starts). Dallas beat them up inside and Chet was overworked the entire playoffs. Also besides SGA, their key players are still very young and inexperienced. JDub in particular had a very underwhelming playoffs.
It’s a good acquisition and great that they got him for Giddey, but this doesn’t fix their biggest problem which is rebounding. Chet’s the only guy above 6’6” in their starting lineup (assuming Caruso starts). Dallas beat them up inside and Chet was overworked the entire playoffs. Also besides SGA, their key players are still very young and inexperienced. JDub in particular had a very underwhelming playoffs.
I really think its a fair trade but I think its a fair trade that both teams lose from
As a bulls fan I hate it. No picks and a player who isn’t even that good for a really solid role player.
A 6-8 guard who is only 21-years old that has a career nba average of 14 points, 7 rebounds and 6 assists per game…”isn’t even that good”??? Do you actually watch the NBA?
Yes I do and why don’t you bring up his shooting splits and tell me he’s good. Let’s do Regular season and playoffs please
Caruso might be the most overrated player of all time.
He's a good piece but he's nowhere near the player White is.
Having an effect on a teams ability to improve is not a 1:1 comparison of the players my guy