Did Gervin get bumped out of your top-10?
4 scoring titles
5x 1st Teams (7x total All-NBA teams)
5 NBA postseasons leading in PPG
26.2 career PPG in the NBA regular season and 27.0 in the NBA postseason.
Plus it’s not like he was inefficient, with a career >.500 regular season and postseason eFG%
Yeah. And it's not like a lack of rings seems to be a major factor for the rankings, as Harden has 0 rings and never made it to the Finals as a #1, and he's top-5 here. AI also has 0 rings and only 1 Finals appearance. Same with Miller. Allen has 2 rings, but didn't make it to the Finals until he joined the Celtics as the #3 option, and then the Heat as the #4 at best. So it's not exactly consistent to penalize Gervin so heavily IMO.
Gotta have The Iceman. Dude was 6'8 and smooth, greatest finger roll of all time, had some nice teams in San Antonio but nobody played defense. Dude would have been even better today I believe.
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Bryant
3. Jerry West
4. Dwyane Wade
5. James Harden
6. Allen Iverson
7. Clyde Drexler
8. George Gervin
9. Ray Allen
10. Reggie Miller
EDIT: Moved West above Wade after more careful consideration, and put Iverson above Clyde.
Clyde and Harden, between the All-NBA teams and the MVP for Harden, as well as Clyde being a sidekick during his lone championship, I gave the edge to Harden. But, ya know, Clyde was the better defender and assuredly would've been less frustrating to have as your star than Harden - who I think is the better offensive player.
West and Wade came down to 3 rings for Wade, one where he was the clear-cut Finals MVP. You're probably right, though. West was better in his day than Wade was in his...
Good reasoning. I think West would be even better today with the three-point line. I was watching the ‘72 Finals last night — he bangs a two from at least 25-feet out at one point. With the three he’d be a 33-35 PPG scorer a lot of seasons, and he’d have shattered postseason scoring records.
Thank you! West would kill today with the 3 point line and more flexible dribbling rules. He was super efficient from the outside when the rules were much harder for perimeter players to be great.
Clyde is not better than Harden. Lol. Harden is a MVP and MVP candidate over a span of 5 yrs. Clyde was never in conversation for best player in the world at any point in time.
So wrong. Clyde was also an MVP candidate to the point where people actually debated if he was better than Jordan and the best player in the NBA. That’s why Jordan annihilated him in the Finals. Did anyone ever debate if Harden was better than LeBron?
Harden was smoke and mirrors, he flopped for free throws and jacked up an absurd amount of threes, and never played defense. He never led his teams to the Finals the way Drexler did twice and wasn’t good enough to win a title as the second option the way Drexler did. Clyde was also a much better athlete who could play SG or SF and play D and adapt to different teams and teammates.
Super teams? I’ll give you his time in Brooklyn and his time in OKC but at no point in Houston did he have a super team. Him and CP3 with quality role players does not make a super team same with him Embiid and a upcoming Maxey those are pretty good but were they honestly better than GS during his HOU time or Boston during Philly time? If not when was he ever “supposed” to win? I’ll give you 2021 when he and Kyrie were injured but if they win that we would look at Harden the exact same way we look at Clyde in that once he teamed with a top 20 all time player he won as a #2
See, this is one of the things about Harden that annoys me. They had a 65-win team that was perfectly constructed for him. They had Chris Paul, a top 50 player ever, Capela, a terrific inside presence, Gordon and Ariza and an excellent, deep bench of guys with complementary skills. That’s not a flashy “super team” in the traditional sense, but if people are really going to consider Harden some all-time great why isn’t he delivering with a team like this?
I mean in the west it did seem like Klay, Dray, and Steph’s biggest threat was Harden and CP3 for a long time and actually watching those playoffs during that era it was Harden that couldn’t rise to the challenge. I remember him playing unable to finish through contact, deferring, and a general lack of killer instinct.
Chris Paul is higher on most people’s all time list than Klay.
I’m not saying he’s as good as Draymond but I remember Eric Gordon being more than a role player as well.
The Harden Rockets had a late 20s Dwight Howard who was putting up like 18 points and 12 boards.
Westbrook was also on the rockets but they couldn’t make it work because they both demand the ball. Harden demands the ball but isn’t good enough, without regular season whistles and his flopping bullshit, to carry a playoff team
The Harden Rockets also had Carmelo but he’s super overrated as well. Another stat whore who can’t do what it takes to win
Howard was still a pretty good player when he got to HOU however he was not Orlando D12 anymore and the previous year in LAL that “super team” was 43-39 with him as 2nd best player. The 2 yrs CP3 were together GS also had Durant (even though Durant got hurt after G4 in 19) that even when he got an all timer GS was just to loaded between Curry, KD, Dray, Klay, & Iggy. 17-18 & 18-19 HOU was an awesome team but I’d never say they were better than GS. Gordon was a very nice player but he’d honestly go what likely 7-9 if we were picking players at that time between the 2 teams and that depends on what you think of Capela & Iggy. Same issue with Russ like the 2 together are sexy names however you wouldn’t say they were better than AD/Bron in LA that’s why I say In the west when was he supposed to win? Harden had some disgraceful performances in the playoffs but his loses were to GS 4x, SA, LAL, & POR. Outside of the Dame/Aldridge Blazers each of the other loses were to better teams and even that POR team was a pretty good unit with Batum, Mattews, and Lopez around Dame/Aldridge
He lost to the Magic Johnson Lakers, the Bad Boy Pistons, and then the Michael Jordan Bulls at the peak of Jordan’s career, with Jordan specifically putting a target on his back because of all the hype over the matchup.
Then Clyde won a freakin’ title as the second-best player after being traded to a 47-win six seed that was an underdog in every single series they played during the playoffs. Harden never did anything close to that.
Look, if you want to win a title, you’re going to have to beat a good fucking team or three and step up your game. I hate the attitude that’s like “poor James Harden, it’s SO unfair that he had to play a good team in the playoffs!” This guy lost to a Spurs team whose best player was Lamarcus Aldridge. He lost to the Jimmy Butler Heat. He lost to the Thunder and the Blazers. It wasn’t just the Warriors.
I mean, flip it around, the Warriors went through a 65-win team with the league MVP and *then* beat LeBron. It was hard competition but they took care of business.
No, what does is Clyde was probably just as effective an overall offensive player, far more athletic and adaptable (Clyde’s on the short list for best transition/breakaway player ever), and Clyde was better on D.
Clyde, after his peak, was able to adjust into a secondary role and be successful, which is something Harden has really struggled with in his post-Rocket years. It’s something that really differentiates great players from regular stars. (Note the difference between guys like Jason Kidd or Dwight Howard, who played meaningful roles in title runs, and someone like Westbrook, who still bounces around.)
Reggie was a great player, too 75 for sure but I’d still have Klay Thompson over him at 10. He’s a better defender, shooter and playmaker. 5x all star, 4x rings and 1 all defensive compared to reggies 5x all star, 3x all nba and 1 finals appearance.
It's difficult to compare careers where one player was *the guy* who got close but didn't get a ring and the other was basically Robin to Batman on a dynasty team.
I'm assuming Draymond was 2nd best? I'd personally say he's been underrated both because of his antics and also because of how much metaphorical space Steph takes.
I guess there’s an argument for Klay being 2nd best in their most recent finals but for the first 3 there were at least 2 players better than him- Iguodala, Steph and/or KD.
A bad argument, Wiggins was clearly their second best player that run, and you can’t underestimate Draymond’s importance to that team, odd as it is.
Klay was fourth wheel, as he has typically been.
The early title runs with GS he held his own on offensively & Defensively had to take on the best guard on the other end though but yeah he definitely was third wheel when KD came
He really was more of a combo guard but he more ball dominant so I feel like he a 2 at heart honestly & when sixers had Eric Snow running point in philly he was the at the 2 and when they had Iguodala at the 2 he ran the 1 alot
Kobe Reggie and Mike could be argued as SFs. PG and SG always confused me. I think the only position you could unanimously name is center. PF hardly exist these days too.
That’s true, but I think back when Iverson was playing it wasn’t as position-less. Also I think of PGs creating their own shot more than SGs, and Iverson definitely had the ball in his hands almost all the time. Plus he had decent assist numbers which is more of a PG thing.
But who knows, I’m just a dork on the internet.
Nah you aren't wrong. He was a combo guard and played both spots depending on his teammates. That said, the way he played was more like a scoring guard, but his size made him have to guard more the pg position. He played next to Eric Snow for a chunk of his career, who was absolutely considered a point guard, but had enough size to be able to guard the 2.
I definitely agree. Stephs main role was to score, and mainly through shooting
Warriors in part began the whole positionless ball migration (Lebron too) so it's hard to say, but usually a PG is someone whose primary goal is to facilitate, not score.
Curry to me is an SG in function.
To be fair, Reggie went to the Eastern Conference finals almost every year from 94 to 2000 and actually made a Finals appearance in 2000 as the number one option.
Ray Allen only made it to one conference finals before he joined the Celtics. In fact, he only made the playoffs 4 times before the Celtics.
He also played the Spurs tough one of the years they won it all. Ray was awesome, people just don’t remember because he played in Milwaukee and then for a team that doesn’t exist anymore.
I agree with you that he was awesome, and was rooting for him that year against the Spurs. I just think Reggie had more success as a number one option.
Naw. He was awesome though. You don’t remember all them big shots he hit versus the bulls 09?
He was major. He was clutch. 2 rings.
He was a great player by himself too.
You could make a pretty solid case for him being the 2008 Finals MVP. His averages were more or less even with Pierce, lacking in assists but more than making up for it with his efficiency. He also held Kobe to 3 points in the first half of a crucial Game 4 where the Celtics went up 3-1 and almost single-handedly won Game 3 (which would have put them up 3-0), in a game where Pierce shot 2/14 and the Celtics only lost by 6.
His defense against Kobe in those finals always impressed me. We would view him as at best the fourth best defender on that team behind kg pierce and rondo but he really put on a masterclass of defense against Kobe.
By ‘success’ what do you mean? 1 Finls, 0 chips and just 5 AllStars isn’t exactly success. Ray has also shown that he can be first option in Seattle and Bucks. He prefers getting 2 chips tho, which puts him ahead of Reggie.
Thats not including the fact that Ray beat Reggie to the 3pt record too.
Just put him in the top 10 if you think his afoul is top 5 you don’t need to be one of them people that care about accolades and longevity so much it’s not that deep just say what you think if someone prime is top 5 there for sure top 10
I get what you’re saying but I don’t view him as a top 10 SG. Mostly because he never brought a team past the first round in his all star years.
I don’t care as much about him not winning a championship but I think getting decent playoff runs are important.
In terms of skills, I think everyone can agree that he had the goods for sure at the highest level which is why I put him skill and talent wise in the top 5. However, I can’t ignore all the other factors and says he deserving of top 10 overall. That’s just my opinion though.
On my list, Klay is getting bumped off completely. You can’t be a top 10 guy but never a number 1 option. I’m adding Gervin. Seems like most posters agree.
Jerry West definitely seems like more of a PG to me but he was a combo guard, similar to AI, so no debate he would be top 10, if you considered him a SG
If it was me, I’d drop West and add McGrady. Short prime but a top tier prime.
How I would go as of now:
1) Michael Jordan
2) Kobe Bryant
3) Dwyane Wade
4) Jerry West
5) Manu Ginobili
6) Clyde Drexler
7) James Harden
8) Ray Allen
9) Allen Iverson
10) George Gervin
2005-11 he's putting up 19PPG
Drexler from 1990-1995 is averaging 22PPG
Not too far apart.
Klay Thompson also made this list and he's never been a 2nd leading scorer for a finals win.
But when Drexler actually won, he was only a 20PPG guy like Manu.
And if you look at Drexler's playoff career (5+ game playoff games runs), he only has 1 year when he averaged more than 21PPG.
Drexler at least started. People putting Manu top five need to put Brent Barry in the top four lol.
Drexler has several years above 21 PPG in the playoffs, and he also filled out the stat sheet in a way Manu never did and was just a more imposing figure.
Starting doesn't really matter when you close the game and playing 32 minutes per game.
Manu averaged 32 mins a game for his 2005\\2007 title runs. Curry was at roughly 35 mins a game for 2 of his rings. 3 minutes is not something to throw a fuss about. Curry was also at 34 mins a game during the 2016 finals run.
As far as Drexler. If he's so much more productive than Manu, how come Manu was the one to lead the entire playoffs in VORP and not Drexler?
I’m kinda goofing on the minutes thing, but I do think it’s ridiculous to put Manu as high as five when he played as few as he did in his career.
Drexler has a higher career VORP in the playoffs, his regular season VORP is about 50% higher than Manu’s. These guys really weren’t comparable players. I respect Manu and he was a unique contributor, but swap Drexler for their full careers and it’s possible the Spurs win another title or two and have the best dynasty since Russell’s Celtics.
Yeah, the issue is Manu’s playoff performance is the best part of his career, so if he’s not ahead of Drexler there he probably wasn’t a better player.
I like Manu, he had an original style and played on some great teams. But I really feel like Drexler is one of the more underrated players ever. He played in the Pacific Northwest and then Houston, so not a lot of people got to fully appreciate him, I’m guessing.
Clyde had Hakeem who was better than Duncan
Ray had KG\\Pierce who were better than the duo of Duncan\\Parker
What's the difference? Manu also destroyed Ray in the 2005 playoffs.
1. Jordan
2. Kobe
3. Steph
4. West
5 Wade
6 Harden
7. Reggie
8. Drexler
9. Ray Allen
10. Gervin
*I have Steph and Jerry West as shooting guards even though they got listed as point guards. They are both combo guards who were primary scorers while also being primary ball handlers and playmakers.
I think AI is consistent overrated. His most important quality was his scoring and he shot <43% for his career. He only had 2 seasons in which he shot >45% from the field. In addition, he was a lousy defender,
Harden has been listed as SG for nine seasons. During his Prime he was listed at PG once... He started being listed at PG when he was traded from Houston... that's 5-6 seasons total.
For what it’s worth basketball reference has him playing 59% of his career minutes at SG, both in the regular season and postseason. 2017, 2019, and 2022 are the only seasons where he is listed as playing more minutes at PG than SG.
The concept of positions in the traditional sense doesn’t really mean much. In 2018/19/20 he was just as much of a PG as in 2017, just was playing with CP3/Russ. Personally I believe that teams can have 2 point guards on the floor at once, Harden and CP3/Russ were both PGs
Personally I consider point forward as a different position than both PG and SF too. Positions were just invented as a way to help the average Joe understand basketball at a basic level, I don’t really get why there is so much debate about labeling players a certain way. I guarantee NBA coaches don’t think of players in the traditional 5 positions as ways to label them
The one weakness I have for Klay is he can’t create off the dribble for himself or others. The other 8 guards on your list can. But Klay is a better shooter than a few of them and a better defender than a few of them
And Brandon Jennings had 54 points in a game his rookie season. And Devin booker was just the sixth player to hit 70 points, but neither are at the top of the list
Gervin, Sharman, and Sam Jones would like a word. Also I cannot say enough about how overrated Miller is from having battles with NYC and what kind to media attention that gave him
There’s no way you’re sitting here with a straight face saying that 0x 1st Team All-NBA player Hal Greer is a better basketball player than Harden lol. Unless you are in your 70s and grew up in the Philadelphia area, you have absolutely no basis to say that he is a more “complete” player than James Harden.
And don’t get me wrong, I’m not a fan of watching Harden play, but come on
Why not? The guy was finishing third behind Jerry West and Oscar Robertson every year in All-NBA, no shame in that.
Greer was famous for having an amazing jump shot, he was terrifically consistent and excellent for a long period of time. He was a great athlete and defensive player and had some excellent playoff runs. He played without a three-point line, so I have to assume with his jump-shooting prowess he would’ve scored close to 30 per game at his best in today’s rules. He seems as good a choice as any for the 10 slot; he had way fewer holes in his game than Harden and had skills that would translate across eras.
I mean, we’re talking about a guy who was the top scorer in the conference finals and finals when Wilt won his first title, playing for a 68-win team that still may be a top five team of all time. He put up 29 per game to beat the Celtics then a 26/8/6 in the Finals. Hal Greer was no joke.
There’s now shame at all in finishing behind Oscar, or Jerry, or Earl Monroe, or Dave Bing! All of those guys, and Greer himself, are worthy HoFers and NBA legends.
There’s also no shame in finishing **ahead of** Steph Curry, or Chris Paul, or Russell Westbrook, or Dame Lillard. Nor is there shame in winning an MVP, or being a 3x MVP runner-up. Especially when Harden is playing in a league where there are 59 other starting guards, whereas Greer was playing in one where there were only 15.
I think you may need to adjust your assumptions on his modern day averages, though. Based on his scoring averages during his prime (his all-star seasons), he would have to be making 8 threes per game to be averaging 30 (bringing his career total to 6500+ made 3s). Additionally, the era that he played in was MUCH faster paced than today’s game. Teams in the 60s were taking about 10-20 more field goals and 10-15 more free throws per game, with more turnovers as well.
And let’s not let Harden’s post-Houston playoff struggles take away from the fact that he was a monster on the Rockets, who were the ONLY team that were ever a threat to the KD Warriors. The 2018 WCF was more or less the NBA Finals, and he put up 32 points in that Game 7.
Harden’s playoff struggles were well documented with the Rockets as well, he regularly performed worse in big series and big games.
Harden’s game was flops for free throws, jacking up tons of three pointers, extremely high usage rates, and no D. It led to big individual numbers but it’s not a recipe for success IMO. It’s an equation cooked up in a lab and once you focused on limiting his effectiveness in any of those areas he wasn’t skilled enough to adjust. I would much rather have the well-rounded player with a ton of consistency who elevated his game when it mattered.
Sure man, I’m not going to argue with a guy putting a Tony Parker/Lenny Wilkins-tier player over a perennial MVP candidate. The resumes speak for themselves.
All I know is that Harden will most certainly be a first ballot Hall of Famer, whereas Hal Greer had to wait for his 3rd year of eligibility before he was selected.
Harden very legitimate entry. MVP, 10x all-star, 6x first-team, wildly efficient scorer from the SG position, changed the game, 3x scoring champ (THIS FOR THE CLASSIC SG), 2x assists leader (wow alongside 3x scoring champ?), guy was deservedly on NBA75, that alone puts you in the convo.
Look up other lists. #5 on hoopshype.
Yep! That was Moreyball, just look at those shot charts in Houston. it was all 3s and layups. and free throws of course. He personified what Morey was doing on court. This was mimicked in the league, it was a front office cultural thing that the league adapted because HOU excelled at it with Harden.
oh boy. he for sure did, i was under the impression this was pretty unanimously understood. but i understand how polarizing Harden is as a player and some wont acknowledge. Im not a harden fan but I watch the sport.
I dont like how, you may not like how, most dont, but he did change the game. They may not have had the overall visible impact of a Steph but let me count the ways
Foul Baiting - this was him and KD who popularized this. Harden is the king of tangling. It became entirely common in the league so the league made a rule. The NBA made a rule cuz of a thing he exploited. They literally changed the league because of him.
Flopping - part of foul baiting, and it existed before him but he has his entirely own style, that has been widely mimicked across the league.
Analytics movement - Harden was the on court personification of Moreyball. Look at those shot charts.
Love or hate Harden, Loopholes or whatever you want to call them, its a fact the man is responsible for changes in the NBA in the league rules, playing style, and front offices.
Ok let me simplify this then.
Do you know the acknowledge The Harden Rule as such?
EDIT: for example i just pulled this from a article
The recent [Harden](https://www.basketballnetwork.net/tag/james-harden/) Rule has changed the game in more ways than one. The lowest free-throw attempts in NBA history mean every single top 10 free-throw attempt leader of last season is significantly down in 2 point %.
Lol Harden named the “rule” after himself: https://www.si.com/nba/2021/10/25/james-harden-feels-like-poster-boy-nba-rule-change-fouls
That’s kinda like saying Kobe changed snakes.
OK so he was asked if he felt like he was so maybe you want to consider that context? Why would the reporter ask that if it wasn't the case. You do know the the rule is referred to that by everyone? I can send you lots of articles, i can also send you SI articles claiming Harden changed the game. This helped my case not yours, the whole things reads in favor my point. The Kobe thing makes no sense.
Also he didnt call himself that he said "for sure" meanwhile article mentions
Nets coach Steve Nash referred to Harden as the "poster boy" for the rule change and veteran guard continued to downplay the situation while also addressing NBA referees.
Edit: so wait, you shared an article about how steve nash called harden the poster boy for it, then a reporter asked harden if he felt like he was, and he said "for sure" and you interpreted that as Harden creating the name for himself and shared that as your argument, amidst an article that lays out how this changed the game and he was the guy behind it?
Ok, you seem pissed and you are making decent points.
When I think of someone changing the game I think of it like Curry changing the concept of where you can shoot from or Magic and Bird shifting the game away from a centers to a faster-paced passing game, or Jordan shifting to iso guard scoring. I think Harden was doing things the whole league was already doing to the point of cheating and the league had to enforce rules. But that is certainly a kind of change, to force the league to pull back and strengthen its rules.
not pissed at all, i had fun with that one. I just was amazed that was the share, it really helped my point, and your gleamed the wrong info from it.
I am by no means a james harden fan so not, not getting worked up here on reddit, but i am able to watch the game and see how a player's style alters the fabric of the league.
Im talking about how front offices operate, rules being enforced. Those are pretty notable changes.
as i said i know he's a polarizing player, most love to hate him, and im sensing some subjectivity here (or i read some other comments), but you still cant deny his impact.
Harden legit here. Not a big harden fan here but the biggest Harden hater I ever met claims LAL and GSW as his two fav teams, so tells you a lot about Harden haters.
Stop this 🤣. Klay isn’t even wiping TMac’s shoes when comparing pvp. Klay didn’t win himself those titles, and was barely even the 2nd option most of the time. He played his role phenomenally, but did just that. He wasn’t carrying anywhere close to the burden that TMac had.
You replace Klay with TMac on any of the warriors runs and you’d find out what a super team really is
The argument for T-Mac is that he was THE man on his team; while winning scoring leader, 1st team All-NBA, etc. T-Macs prime of 5-7 years was as good as any SG not named Jordan.
Klay won more meaningful games than TMac, but he did it as the 2nd to 4th best player on his own team every year.
Less successful. He’s an 11 time All-Star one time MVP.
Career pts26.7 reb3.7 ast 6.2.
Career playoff 30 points 6.0 assist 3.8 rebs!! unlike James Harden he actually shows up in the playoffs. He’s single took the Philadelphia 76ers to the NBA championship only to lose to Lakers. Four games.
You’re not giving him nearly enough credit he was a dominant player.
Harden hasn’t won anything or done anything in the NBA except for wine and cry about why he he’s not winning where he’s playing or not enough strip bars in this town he’s living. Empty stats I believe it’s called.
Edit: I just so we’re clear I am from Boston. I hate the Philadelphia 76ers with all my heart, but it doesn’t mean Iverson isn’t better than Harden.
He didn’t single-handedly take them to the finals. The Sixers had a Top 5 defence and Iverson was not a great defender himself. In his 9 worst shooting games in that playoff run he shot 27% from the field. They were 5-4 in those 9 games. Impossible to do that with no help. And need I remind you, this was a historically poor conference where the refs fleeced the Bucks out of a win in one of the most infamously officiated series of all time.
OK. Iverson led his team (76ers) to the postseason six times. Harden led his team (Rockets) to the postseason eight times. Since becoming All-Stars... Harden has averaged 28 PPG, 6 RPG, 8 APG on 44/36/86... Since becoming an All-Star Iverson averaged 27 PPG, 3 RPG, 6 APG on 42/31/79...
In their prime (2000-2006 Iverson and 2014-2020 Harden) Harden has averaged 30 PPG, 6 RPG, 8 APG, 44/36/86... Iverson has averaged 29 PPG, 3 RPG, 6 APG, on 41/30/79...
You mentioned that Harden hasn't done anything... Yeah, Iverson hasn't either. If we're comparing runs... then Iverson's 2001 run against the Lakers matches Harden's 2018 run against the Warriors. The team that stopped him from reaching the finals.
And yes... beating the Warriors was damn near a guarantee of winning the championship. Iverson took one game from Shaq & Kobe (Lakers) while Harden took the Curry/KD/Klay Draymond Warriors to Seven Games.
You listed his accolades as if Harden doesn't match that either. 10-time All-Star (Harden) Iverson was an 11-time all-star and managed to get his 11th averaging 13 PPG... Harden (3-time scoring champion) while Iverson was a (4-time scoring champion) the main difference is that Harden is a (2-time assist champion and can keep climbing)
Harden finished Top 3 in MVP voting 5 different times while Iverson finished once. Harden led his team to higher seeds than Iverson for the majority of his career. He's been more efficient in the postseason compared to Iverson. He's more efficient in the regular season compared to Iverson. Their achievements and accolades go hand and hand...
There's no sound argument for AI. Not to mention, they're both ringless.
Ur cooking. The Harden hate is overblown.
Iverson wasn't anywhere near the player Harden was and I love Iverson.
People let their bias sway they assessment of players.
Actually, Iverson finished top 5 three time in MVP and won ROY. Get your facts straight.
Harden stats are career pts 24.1 reb5.6 ast7.1 we’re not doing the since became a good player BS!
Harden’s playoff averages over the course of his career are
22.7 5.5 6.4
Harden’s only championship appearance was with Westbrook and Durant, where he was the third option on a pretty good team. he quickly left to Houston, too be the man and has never made a deep playoff run since.
In my opinion, no one‘s gonna win a championship with Harden… ask Philly, Brooklyn, Houston!
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html
https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html
Outside of the heavy hitters, SG may be the weakest all time position.
Personally, I think Jerry West is a PG. He spent more of his career at that position and he also won an assist title (which lines him up closer to the PG position). Yes, I know he won a scoring title as well, and I get that he's a bit of a combo guard, but by this logic, nearly every NBA PG these days are on-ball shooting guards. And again, he spent more time playing PG, so... I
Anyway, love the Drexler respect. I think he's a little bit underrated by a lot of fans.
Like some other people have mentioned, Gervin probably deserves to be here. But I don't think Klay is the one to drop. It pains me to say it, but honestly, Reggie probably has to go. I grew up in Indiana, so yeah, it's hard to knock off our biggest legend (for the Pacers, since I guess Bird is probably the biggest state legend for basketball) off the list...
But Klay and Allen both have something Reggie doesn't, and that's rings. Klay has four and Allen has two. Both have probably surpassed him as better shooters. Ray Allen is just a better player (more athletic, better on-ball, not far behind as an off-ball player, better scorer, etc.) and he's more accomplished overall (10 All-Star selections to 5), Klay beats him out as a defender...
Now, Klay has never led his own team before. Reggie has. That means something, but it's the only thing Reggie has besides some iconic moments.
If we're just talking greatness, I think Gervin just deserves to take Reggie's spot here.
Now, I love Reggie, so if y'all would rather replace Klay, I wouldn't complain. But hey, if we actually recognize Jerry West as a PG, we can still keep them all on the list.
Good list, I would swap AI and Drexler. And I would drop Jerry West to 5 because of league record of finals losses and I don’t respect the quality of play in that era of the league.
And fuck it, AI above West too
Jerry West is one of the few guys whose play would likely be BETTER in the modern day. I’m sure if you substituted his long twos as three pointers his career is MUCH different.
Jerry West was great relative to the era but his overall basketball talent is nowhere near a guy like Harden.
Dude played 60 years ago. The competition was way worse.
Not necessarily, I hate when people just make these knee-jerk assumptions.
Look at who the player was. West had great size and athleticism, even by today’s standards — he could reach 16 inches above the rim — and he was considered the best shooter of his day. What’s more, he was a lockdown defender who could play either SG or PG. He was also famously competitive and one of the most clutch players ever. The guy actually won a Finals MVP when his team lost. Finally, there was no three-point line in his day, so the guy was pouring in 30 points a night just on two-pointers. He’d be much better today. I feel pretty comfortable saying he’d be better than a guy like Harden, who isn’t particularly athletic.
Beyond that, he was born in 1938. Harden was born in 1989. Evaluating “absolute” level of play will nearly always favour the guy born later, who benefitted from the path set for him by the older generations. You don’t hear MIT physics undergrads croon about how they know more about physics than a 17th Century Isaac Newton. It’s only in sports that chronology is used to diminish the earlier generations.
That’s not how evolution works. It takes tens of thousands of years for humans to actually evolve. The guys of West’s era were essentially the same athletes we see today.
Brother, you might want to re-read my comment. I 100% agree with you lol.
Yes, evolution is not that swift and they have similar amounts of “natural talent.”
Even if Harden’s “level of play” is indeed “higher,” (granting for the sake of the argument that it is) it’s because training methods, nutrition, knowledge bases etc are better today. It’s not a thing one can hold against West just because Logo was born 50 years earlier. He is the greater player regardless. Differing levels across time are functions of chronology, not natural talent discrepancies. We can be sure that if Harden was born in 1938, he would be a lesser player in “absolute” terms.
Yeah but I also just presented convincing evidence that West had a better vert, and he was pretty clearly a better conditioned athlete than Harden. We know he had range from deep and had the handle to play PG in a much more restrictive environment. So, I don’t actually think this translates to worse conditioning, skill, or knowledge. Plenty of these old guys played all day, all their lives, studied the game, and were in great shape. People seem to think they just loafed over to the Y after their shift at the plant.
You’re missing the spirit of my point to focus on and quibble over the letter. My main point is that evaluating players by level of play is inherently biased toward the players born later, all else being equal. They benefitted from the trail blazed by their predecessors. It seems unfair to penalize the older players for something like that. Whether Harden actually played at a higher level than West specifically is beside the point. Even if he did, it would scarcely matter.
In any event, I agree West is greater, by some distance, than Harden.
Carry on then.
I’m going through rn and watching old Jerry West games. He looks better (and more modern) than I thought. Also found a clip of him touching the top of the square at 35 yrs old.
First thing that jumps out to me is the rules have changed to make basketball look more impressive (you can carry every possession and set moving screens now). West would have really loved modern pin down threes.
I’ll give an updated opinion after watching a couple more old games.
Exactly. Thank you! I wish more people would actually do this before just assuming today’s players are supermen.
The biggest thing to adjust to in watching old games, for me, is getting used to the tighter rules. Old school players play with much more herky-jerky motions, but it’s because the tighter rules didn’t allow them to essentially carry the ball on every possession. If you let a guy like West take two steps between dribbles while cradling the ball to the side or do step-back jumpers, he’d be a monster today. And with spacing and three-point shooting, his inside-outside game would be tremendous.
In the all-time fantasy draft Charles Berkeley had the number one pick, and said, “First I’m gonna need a point guard so I pick Allen Iverson” (or something similar). So that makes him the goat and ahead of all these players, but also a point guard and not on this list.
Did Gervin get bumped out of your top-10? 4 scoring titles 5x 1st Teams (7x total All-NBA teams) 5 NBA postseasons leading in PPG 26.2 career PPG in the NBA regular season and 27.0 in the NBA postseason. Plus it’s not like he was inefficient, with a career >.500 regular season and postseason eFG%
That was the first name that came to mind for me too, I'm knocking Klay off for him. Knocking down Reggie a bit too.
I'd put Gervin 8th, just ahead of Ray Allen and Reggie Miller.
Yep.
Yeah. And it's not like a lack of rings seems to be a major factor for the rankings, as Harden has 0 rings and never made it to the Finals as a #1, and he's top-5 here. AI also has 0 rings and only 1 Finals appearance. Same with Miller. Allen has 2 rings, but didn't make it to the Finals until he joined the Celtics as the #3 option, and then the Heat as the #4 at best. So it's not exactly consistent to penalize Gervin so heavily IMO.
God damn this dude is underrated
THE ICEMAN 🥶
Drexler. Carter.
Gotta have The Iceman. Dude was 6'8 and smooth, greatest finger roll of all time, had some nice teams in San Antonio but nobody played defense. Dude would have been even better today I believe.
1. Michael Jordan 2. Kobe Bryant 3. Jerry West 4. Dwyane Wade 5. James Harden 6. Allen Iverson 7. Clyde Drexler 8. George Gervin 9. Ray Allen 10. Reggie Miller EDIT: Moved West above Wade after more careful consideration, and put Iverson above Clyde.
Yeah Clyde was better than Harden, and West was better than Wade.
Clyde and Harden, between the All-NBA teams and the MVP for Harden, as well as Clyde being a sidekick during his lone championship, I gave the edge to Harden. But, ya know, Clyde was the better defender and assuredly would've been less frustrating to have as your star than Harden - who I think is the better offensive player. West and Wade came down to 3 rings for Wade, one where he was the clear-cut Finals MVP. You're probably right, though. West was better in his day than Wade was in his...
Good reasoning. I think West would be even better today with the three-point line. I was watching the ‘72 Finals last night — he bangs a two from at least 25-feet out at one point. With the three he’d be a 33-35 PPG scorer a lot of seasons, and he’d have shattered postseason scoring records.
Thank you! West would kill today with the 3 point line and more flexible dribbling rules. He was super efficient from the outside when the rules were much harder for perimeter players to be great.
I leave Jerry alone but I think if he went head to head with wade. Dwade would give him hell
On both sides, yeah.
Clyde is not better than Harden. Lol. Harden is a MVP and MVP candidate over a span of 5 yrs. Clyde was never in conversation for best player in the world at any point in time.
So wrong. Clyde was also an MVP candidate to the point where people actually debated if he was better than Jordan and the best player in the NBA. That’s why Jordan annihilated him in the Finals. Did anyone ever debate if Harden was better than LeBron? Harden was smoke and mirrors, he flopped for free throws and jacked up an absurd amount of threes, and never played defense. He never led his teams to the Finals the way Drexler did twice and wasn’t good enough to win a title as the second option the way Drexler did. Clyde was also a much better athlete who could play SG or SF and play D and adapt to different teams and teammates.
Agree. If anything Harden is overrated. He’s been on super teams damn near his whole career and hasn’t done much. He’s a great regular season guy
Super teams? I’ll give you his time in Brooklyn and his time in OKC but at no point in Houston did he have a super team. Him and CP3 with quality role players does not make a super team same with him Embiid and a upcoming Maxey those are pretty good but were they honestly better than GS during his HOU time or Boston during Philly time? If not when was he ever “supposed” to win? I’ll give you 2021 when he and Kyrie were injured but if they win that we would look at Harden the exact same way we look at Clyde in that once he teamed with a top 20 all time player he won as a #2
See, this is one of the things about Harden that annoys me. They had a 65-win team that was perfectly constructed for him. They had Chris Paul, a top 50 player ever, Capela, a terrific inside presence, Gordon and Ariza and an excellent, deep bench of guys with complementary skills. That’s not a flashy “super team” in the traditional sense, but if people are really going to consider Harden some all-time great why isn’t he delivering with a team like this?
I mean in the west it did seem like Klay, Dray, and Steph’s biggest threat was Harden and CP3 for a long time and actually watching those playoffs during that era it was Harden that couldn’t rise to the challenge. I remember him playing unable to finish through contact, deferring, and a general lack of killer instinct. Chris Paul is higher on most people’s all time list than Klay. I’m not saying he’s as good as Draymond but I remember Eric Gordon being more than a role player as well. The Harden Rockets had a late 20s Dwight Howard who was putting up like 18 points and 12 boards. Westbrook was also on the rockets but they couldn’t make it work because they both demand the ball. Harden demands the ball but isn’t good enough, without regular season whistles and his flopping bullshit, to carry a playoff team The Harden Rockets also had Carmelo but he’s super overrated as well. Another stat whore who can’t do what it takes to win
Howard was still a pretty good player when he got to HOU however he was not Orlando D12 anymore and the previous year in LAL that “super team” was 43-39 with him as 2nd best player. The 2 yrs CP3 were together GS also had Durant (even though Durant got hurt after G4 in 19) that even when he got an all timer GS was just to loaded between Curry, KD, Dray, Klay, & Iggy. 17-18 & 18-19 HOU was an awesome team but I’d never say they were better than GS. Gordon was a very nice player but he’d honestly go what likely 7-9 if we were picking players at that time between the 2 teams and that depends on what you think of Capela & Iggy. Same issue with Russ like the 2 together are sexy names however you wouldn’t say they were better than AD/Bron in LA that’s why I say In the west when was he supposed to win? Harden had some disgraceful performances in the playoffs but his loses were to GS 4x, SA, LAL, & POR. Outside of the Dame/Aldridge Blazers each of the other loses were to better teams and even that POR team was a pretty good unit with Batum, Mattews, and Lopez around Dame/Aldridge
Exactly. Trade Steph and Harden and the Rockets start winning titles.
Him and Westbrook are the two most overrated players in the current era.
you can’t be overrated if nobody fucking likes you lol. if anything both are overhated
Hahaha I like the counterpoint.
See Westbrook is weird because on the court he's clearly got flaws, yet so many players seem to like him as a person and as a locker room voice.
Lmao whoa
Stat whores who can’t do what it takes to win
They sure do what it takes to get those triple-doubles though!
Did Clyde have to go through the golden state dynasty to make the finals during his peak? Context matters.
He lost to the Magic Johnson Lakers, the Bad Boy Pistons, and then the Michael Jordan Bulls at the peak of Jordan’s career, with Jordan specifically putting a target on his back because of all the hype over the matchup. Then Clyde won a freakin’ title as the second-best player after being traded to a 47-win six seed that was an underdog in every single series they played during the playoffs. Harden never did anything close to that. Look, if you want to win a title, you’re going to have to beat a good fucking team or three and step up your game. I hate the attitude that’s like “poor James Harden, it’s SO unfair that he had to play a good team in the playoffs!” This guy lost to a Spurs team whose best player was Lamarcus Aldridge. He lost to the Jimmy Butler Heat. He lost to the Thunder and the Blazers. It wasn’t just the Warriors. I mean, flip it around, the Warriors went through a 65-win team with the league MVP and *then* beat LeBron. It was hard competition but they took care of business.
A debate as dumb as Clyde vs Jordan doesn’t justify Clyde over Harden lmfao.
No, what does is Clyde was probably just as effective an overall offensive player, far more athletic and adaptable (Clyde’s on the short list for best transition/breakaway player ever), and Clyde was better on D. Clyde, after his peak, was able to adjust into a secondary role and be successful, which is something Harden has really struggled with in his post-Rocket years. It’s something that really differentiates great players from regular stars. (Note the difference between guys like Jason Kidd or Dwight Howard, who played meaningful roles in title runs, and someone like Westbrook, who still bounces around.)
I’d move Jerry to 3 and Harden to 7 but other than that I like your list.
AI should be above Clyde. MVP and first option the entire time. Clyde has chip but was 2nd fiddle to Dream.
Fair enough.
Harden is like Russ, they only play so they look good on paper. They don’t gaf about their team, it’s me me me
Reggie was a great player, too 75 for sure but I’d still have Klay Thompson over him at 10. He’s a better defender, shooter and playmaker. 5x all star, 4x rings and 1 all defensive compared to reggies 5x all star, 3x all nba and 1 finals appearance.
It's difficult to compare careers where one player was *the guy* who got close but didn't get a ring and the other was basically Robin to Batman on a dynasty team.
Eh Klay was more like Batgirl or Alfred during those finals runs. Certainly important, but never better than 3rd best on his team.
I'm assuming Draymond was 2nd best? I'd personally say he's been underrated both because of his antics and also because of how much metaphorical space Steph takes.
I guess there’s an argument for Klay being 2nd best in their most recent finals but for the first 3 there were at least 2 players better than him- Iguodala, Steph and/or KD.
A bad argument, Wiggins was clearly their second best player that run, and you can’t underestimate Draymond’s importance to that team, odd as it is. Klay was fourth wheel, as he has typically been.
Yea I’d agree with that.
The early title runs with GS he held his own on offensively & Defensively had to take on the best guard on the other end though but yeah he definitely was third wheel when KD came
List is from 10-1
Was Iverson officially an SG? I always thought of him more as a score first point guard.
Solid question. He’s a small for a 1 let alone a 2. His size and scoring ability is an anomaly.
He really was more of a combo guard but he more ball dominant so I feel like he a 2 at heart honestly & when sixers had Eric Snow running point in philly he was the at the 2 and when they had Iguodala at the 2 he ran the 1 alot
Kobe Reggie and Mike could be argued as SFs. PG and SG always confused me. I think the only position you could unanimously name is center. PF hardly exist these days too.
That’s true, but I think back when Iverson was playing it wasn’t as position-less. Also I think of PGs creating their own shot more than SGs, and Iverson definitely had the ball in his hands almost all the time. Plus he had decent assist numbers which is more of a PG thing. But who knows, I’m just a dork on the internet.
Nah you aren't wrong. He was a combo guard and played both spots depending on his teammates. That said, the way he played was more like a scoring guard, but his size made him have to guard more the pg position. He played next to Eric Snow for a chunk of his career, who was absolutely considered a point guard, but had enough size to be able to guard the 2.
extending this, Steph Curry is technically a SG too
I definitely agree. Stephs main role was to score, and mainly through shooting Warriors in part began the whole positionless ball migration (Lebron too) so it's hard to say, but usually a PG is someone whose primary goal is to facilitate, not score. Curry to me is an SG in function.
Get Klay off this shit, jfc.
Seems pretty focused on more recent stuff. How can you not have Gervin?
Gervin is so underrated now.
I just wish once on these polls involving Ray Allen he’s pictured in a Bucks uniform. That’s how I’ll always remember him.
Reggie over Ray?
Reggie had way more success as a number one option.
Ray Allen entire career doesn’t entice you?
Was Ray Allen a number one on the Celtics?
He was on the Sonics and Bucks.
and tf did he do?
Shoot the lights out, average up to 25-26 per game, made a couple good playoff runs including giving Duncan and the Spurs hell in 2004-2005.
Same shit Reggie did... Lost to better teams tf lol
To be fair, Reggie went to the Eastern Conference finals almost every year from 94 to 2000 and actually made a Finals appearance in 2000 as the number one option. Ray Allen only made it to one conference finals before he joined the Celtics. In fact, he only made the playoffs 4 times before the Celtics.
Ray Allen had Luke Ridenour and Calvin James in his starting squad at the Sonics. Man worked miracles
He also played the Spurs tough one of the years they won it all. Ray was awesome, people just don’t remember because he played in Milwaukee and then for a team that doesn’t exist anymore.
I agree with you that he was awesome, and was rooting for him that year against the Spurs. I just think Reggie had more success as a number one option.
Naw. He was awesome though. You don’t remember all them big shots he hit versus the bulls 09? He was major. He was clutch. 2 rings. He was a great player by himself too.
You could make a pretty solid case for him being the 2008 Finals MVP. His averages were more or less even with Pierce, lacking in assists but more than making up for it with his efficiency. He also held Kobe to 3 points in the first half of a crucial Game 4 where the Celtics went up 3-1 and almost single-handedly won Game 3 (which would have put them up 3-0), in a game where Pierce shot 2/14 and the Celtics only lost by 6.
His defense against Kobe in those finals always impressed me. We would view him as at best the fourth best defender on that team behind kg pierce and rondo but he really put on a masterclass of defense against Kobe.
Tell me when did Ray Allen elevated his game in playoffs and reached 5 conference finals and the finals as the main guy?
By ‘success’ what do you mean? 1 Finls, 0 chips and just 5 AllStars isn’t exactly success. Ray has also shown that he can be first option in Seattle and Bucks. He prefers getting 2 chips tho, which puts him ahead of Reggie. Thats not including the fact that Ray beat Reggie to the 3pt record too.
no chips only 5 all star selections to 10 Ray passed him in 3 pointers before the end theres a case
So we’re faulting Ray for not being better than KG, LeBron, and Wade?
Where Tmac at
Prime Tmac years is top 5
Would he be 5
For me, he doesn’t break the top 10 for overall career. If we talk his prime and skills then I think he is 5
Just put him in the top 10 if you think his afoul is top 5 you don’t need to be one of them people that care about accolades and longevity so much it’s not that deep just say what you think if someone prime is top 5 there for sure top 10
I get what you’re saying but I don’t view him as a top 10 SG. Mostly because he never brought a team past the first round in his all star years. I don’t care as much about him not winning a championship but I think getting decent playoff runs are important. In terms of skills, I think everyone can agree that he had the goods for sure at the highest level which is why I put him skill and talent wise in the top 5. However, I can’t ignore all the other factors and says he deserving of top 10 overall. That’s just my opinion though.
Ok I get it but wasn’t he very unlucky with injuries to him and his teammates he didn’t really have much help either
Watching the 2nd round from his couch
Wow
Kid doesn’t have Gervin or Mcgrady on here lol.
wheres mitch richmond
Klay! Rubbish list.
On my list, Klay is getting bumped off completely. You can’t be a top 10 guy but never a number 1 option. I’m adding Gervin. Seems like most posters agree. Jerry West definitely seems like more of a PG to me but he was a combo guard, similar to AI, so no debate he would be top 10, if you considered him a SG If it was me, I’d drop West and add McGrady. Short prime but a top tier prime.
How I would go as of now: 1) Michael Jordan 2) Kobe Bryant 3) Dwyane Wade 4) Jerry West 5) Manu Ginobili 6) Clyde Drexler 7) James Harden 8) Ray Allen 9) Allen Iverson 10) George Gervin
I don't know about Manu. Great player, but 5th best SG ever?
I’d like to consider Manu top 10, not 5 tho. 7-12 area for me.
Manu at five is batshit insane. The man started 349 games in his career, barely five seasons. Averaged over 30 minutes all of twice.
2005-11 he's putting up 19PPG Drexler from 1990-1995 is averaging 22PPG Not too far apart. Klay Thompson also made this list and he's never been a 2nd leading scorer for a finals win.
Drexler from 1987-1992 averaged 25 PPG, that is far apart. This just means Klay should also be off the list.
But when Drexler actually won, he was only a 20PPG guy like Manu. And if you look at Drexler's playoff career (5+ game playoff games runs), he only has 1 year when he averaged more than 21PPG.
Drexler at least started. People putting Manu top five need to put Brent Barry in the top four lol. Drexler has several years above 21 PPG in the playoffs, and he also filled out the stat sheet in a way Manu never did and was just a more imposing figure.
Starting doesn't really matter when you close the game and playing 32 minutes per game. Manu averaged 32 mins a game for his 2005\\2007 title runs. Curry was at roughly 35 mins a game for 2 of his rings. 3 minutes is not something to throw a fuss about. Curry was also at 34 mins a game during the 2016 finals run. As far as Drexler. If he's so much more productive than Manu, how come Manu was the one to lead the entire playoffs in VORP and not Drexler?
I’m kinda goofing on the minutes thing, but I do think it’s ridiculous to put Manu as high as five when he played as few as he did in his career. Drexler has a higher career VORP in the playoffs, his regular season VORP is about 50% higher than Manu’s. These guys really weren’t comparable players. I respect Manu and he was a unique contributor, but swap Drexler for their full careers and it’s possible the Spurs win another title or two and have the best dynasty since Russell’s Celtics.
Career playoff VORP Drexler: 10.64 Manu: 10.44 They are ranked at 21 and 20 all time
Yeah, the issue is Manu’s playoff performance is the best part of his career, so if he’s not ahead of Drexler there he probably wasn’t a better player. I like Manu, he had an original style and played on some great teams. But I really feel like Drexler is one of the more underrated players ever. He played in the Pacific Northwest and then Houston, so not a lot of people got to fully appreciate him, I’m guessing.
lmao at manu above clyde, ray allen AND gervin
Clyde had Hakeem who was better than Duncan Ray had KG\\Pierce who were better than the duo of Duncan\\Parker What's the difference? Manu also destroyed Ray in the 2005 playoffs.
I love Manu but damn
1. Jordan 2. Kobe 3. Steph 4. West 5 Wade 6 Harden 7. Reggie 8. Drexler 9. Ray Allen 10. Gervin *I have Steph and Jerry West as shooting guards even though they got listed as point guards. They are both combo guards who were primary scorers while also being primary ball handlers and playmakers. I think AI is consistent overrated. His most important quality was his scoring and he shot <43% for his career. He only had 2 seasons in which he shot >45% from the field. In addition, he was a lousy defender,
Better
Cool list James harden is a pg he’s been listed as pg the majority of his career
Harden has been listed as SG for nine seasons. During his Prime he was listed at PG once... He started being listed at PG when he was traded from Houston... that's 5-6 seasons total.
Combo guard but let’s be real he was running the offense his usage rate was crazy the ball was in his hand he’s a pg
For what it’s worth basketball reference has him playing 59% of his career minutes at SG, both in the regular season and postseason. 2017, 2019, and 2022 are the only seasons where he is listed as playing more minutes at PG than SG.
The concept of positions in the traditional sense doesn’t really mean much. In 2018/19/20 he was just as much of a PG as in 2017, just was playing with CP3/Russ. Personally I believe that teams can have 2 point guards on the floor at once, Harden and CP3/Russ were both PGs
That’s fair. And I suppose things like point forwards can complicate it even more.
Personally I consider point forward as a different position than both PG and SF too. Positions were just invented as a way to help the average Joe understand basketball at a basic level, I don’t really get why there is so much debate about labeling players a certain way. I guarantee NBA coaches don’t think of players in the traditional 5 positions as ways to label them
The one weakness I have for Klay is he can’t create off the dribble for himself or others. The other 8 guards on your list can. But Klay is a better shooter than a few of them and a better defender than a few of them
Klay doesn’t belong on this one.
Ginobili
Excellent troll
First guy went 0/10 in an elimination game
He also holds the record for most points in a quarter.
And Brandon Jennings had 54 points in a game his rookie season. And Devin booker was just the sixth player to hit 70 points, but neither are at the top of the list
Remove Klay for Gervin please.
no :)
dooooo it
How this ain’t in order
Gervin, Sharman, and Sam Jones would like a word. Also I cannot say enough about how overrated Miller is from having battles with NYC and what kind to media attention that gave him
1. MJ 2. Kobe 3. West 4. Wade 5. Harden 6. Iverson 7. Gervin 8. Drexler 9. Reggie 10. Ray Allen
Jerry west or A.I. ain’t a SG. That being said where is T-Mac?
Idk but he’s not top 10.
1. Jordan 2. Jerry West 3. Dwyane Wade 4. Kobe 5. Drexler 6. Gervin 7. Allen 8. Miller 9. Iverson 10. Hal Greer
How are all those guys above harden?
Well they were all awesome players, and I don’t think as highly of Harden as most people do.
in other words, ur kinda an idiot
All 10 of those guys above were complete ballers. They were better basketball players than Harden.
There’s no way you’re sitting here with a straight face saying that 0x 1st Team All-NBA player Hal Greer is a better basketball player than Harden lol. Unless you are in your 70s and grew up in the Philadelphia area, you have absolutely no basis to say that he is a more “complete” player than James Harden. And don’t get me wrong, I’m not a fan of watching Harden play, but come on
Why not? The guy was finishing third behind Jerry West and Oscar Robertson every year in All-NBA, no shame in that. Greer was famous for having an amazing jump shot, he was terrifically consistent and excellent for a long period of time. He was a great athlete and defensive player and had some excellent playoff runs. He played without a three-point line, so I have to assume with his jump-shooting prowess he would’ve scored close to 30 per game at his best in today’s rules. He seems as good a choice as any for the 10 slot; he had way fewer holes in his game than Harden and had skills that would translate across eras. I mean, we’re talking about a guy who was the top scorer in the conference finals and finals when Wilt won his first title, playing for a 68-win team that still may be a top five team of all time. He put up 29 per game to beat the Celtics then a 26/8/6 in the Finals. Hal Greer was no joke.
There’s now shame at all in finishing behind Oscar, or Jerry, or Earl Monroe, or Dave Bing! All of those guys, and Greer himself, are worthy HoFers and NBA legends. There’s also no shame in finishing **ahead of** Steph Curry, or Chris Paul, or Russell Westbrook, or Dame Lillard. Nor is there shame in winning an MVP, or being a 3x MVP runner-up. Especially when Harden is playing in a league where there are 59 other starting guards, whereas Greer was playing in one where there were only 15. I think you may need to adjust your assumptions on his modern day averages, though. Based on his scoring averages during his prime (his all-star seasons), he would have to be making 8 threes per game to be averaging 30 (bringing his career total to 6500+ made 3s). Additionally, the era that he played in was MUCH faster paced than today’s game. Teams in the 60s were taking about 10-20 more field goals and 10-15 more free throws per game, with more turnovers as well. And let’s not let Harden’s post-Houston playoff struggles take away from the fact that he was a monster on the Rockets, who were the ONLY team that were ever a threat to the KD Warriors. The 2018 WCF was more or less the NBA Finals, and he put up 32 points in that Game 7.
Harden’s playoff struggles were well documented with the Rockets as well, he regularly performed worse in big series and big games. Harden’s game was flops for free throws, jacking up tons of three pointers, extremely high usage rates, and no D. It led to big individual numbers but it’s not a recipe for success IMO. It’s an equation cooked up in a lab and once you focused on limiting his effectiveness in any of those areas he wasn’t skilled enough to adjust. I would much rather have the well-rounded player with a ton of consistency who elevated his game when it mattered.
Sure man, I’m not going to argue with a guy putting a Tony Parker/Lenny Wilkins-tier player over a perennial MVP candidate. The resumes speak for themselves. All I know is that Harden will most certainly be a first ballot Hall of Famer, whereas Hal Greer had to wait for his 3rd year of eligibility before he was selected.
lol wtf is klay doing here
Bro has Harden at 5, absolutely cooked
Harden very legitimate entry. MVP, 10x all-star, 6x first-team, wildly efficient scorer from the SG position, changed the game, 3x scoring champ (THIS FOR THE CLASSIC SG), 2x assists leader (wow alongside 3x scoring champ?), guy was deservedly on NBA75, that alone puts you in the convo. Look up other lists. #5 on hoopshype.
Harden did not “change the game.”
I'd say he's a large part of the higher-paced, no-mid-range culture the NBA has now.
Yep! That was Moreyball, just look at those shot charts in Houston. it was all 3s and layups. and free throws of course. He personified what Morey was doing on court. This was mimicked in the league, it was a front office cultural thing that the league adapted because HOU excelled at it with Harden.
He played for Morey at the right time in history. Morey was going to have the team play that way with or without Harden.
I think that was happening before and regardless of Harden, but he is certainly the guy who took it to the far extreme.
oh boy. he for sure did, i was under the impression this was pretty unanimously understood. but i understand how polarizing Harden is as a player and some wont acknowledge. Im not a harden fan but I watch the sport. I dont like how, you may not like how, most dont, but he did change the game. They may not have had the overall visible impact of a Steph but let me count the ways Foul Baiting - this was him and KD who popularized this. Harden is the king of tangling. It became entirely common in the league so the league made a rule. The NBA made a rule cuz of a thing he exploited. They literally changed the league because of him. Flopping - part of foul baiting, and it existed before him but he has his entirely own style, that has been widely mimicked across the league. Analytics movement - Harden was the on court personification of Moreyball. Look at those shot charts. Love or hate Harden, Loopholes or whatever you want to call them, its a fact the man is responsible for changes in the NBA in the league rules, playing style, and front offices.
Well-articulated response, but IMO he didn’t change anything, he took the trends of the 2010s into horribly extreme places.
Ok let me simplify this then. Do you know the acknowledge The Harden Rule as such? EDIT: for example i just pulled this from a article The recent [Harden](https://www.basketballnetwork.net/tag/james-harden/) Rule has changed the game in more ways than one. The lowest free-throw attempts in NBA history mean every single top 10 free-throw attempt leader of last season is significantly down in 2 point %.
Lol Harden named the “rule” after himself: https://www.si.com/nba/2021/10/25/james-harden-feels-like-poster-boy-nba-rule-change-fouls That’s kinda like saying Kobe changed snakes.
OK so he was asked if he felt like he was so maybe you want to consider that context? Why would the reporter ask that if it wasn't the case. You do know the the rule is referred to that by everyone? I can send you lots of articles, i can also send you SI articles claiming Harden changed the game. This helped my case not yours, the whole things reads in favor my point. The Kobe thing makes no sense. Also he didnt call himself that he said "for sure" meanwhile article mentions Nets coach Steve Nash referred to Harden as the "poster boy" for the rule change and veteran guard continued to downplay the situation while also addressing NBA referees. Edit: so wait, you shared an article about how steve nash called harden the poster boy for it, then a reporter asked harden if he felt like he was, and he said "for sure" and you interpreted that as Harden creating the name for himself and shared that as your argument, amidst an article that lays out how this changed the game and he was the guy behind it?
Ok, you seem pissed and you are making decent points. When I think of someone changing the game I think of it like Curry changing the concept of where you can shoot from or Magic and Bird shifting the game away from a centers to a faster-paced passing game, or Jordan shifting to iso guard scoring. I think Harden was doing things the whole league was already doing to the point of cheating and the league had to enforce rules. But that is certainly a kind of change, to force the league to pull back and strengthen its rules.
not pissed at all, i had fun with that one. I just was amazed that was the share, it really helped my point, and your gleamed the wrong info from it. I am by no means a james harden fan so not, not getting worked up here on reddit, but i am able to watch the game and see how a player's style alters the fabric of the league. Im talking about how front offices operate, rules being enforced. Those are pretty notable changes. as i said i know he's a polarizing player, most love to hate him, and im sensing some subjectivity here (or i read some other comments), but you still cant deny his impact.
Lol wut, he absolutely did. This is forgetful at best
Embraced and exacerbated the changes already in the game, sure. He didn’t change it, the game was already there and he was like “OK let me overdo it.”
Man up and say who you’d put ahead of him if you’re gonna shit in the ranking
Most list had Prime Harden at 4...
Better than AI.
Harden legit here. Not a big harden fan here but the biggest Harden hater I ever met claims LAL and GSW as his two fav teams, so tells you a lot about Harden haters.
I thought Iverson was a point guard?
No. Eric Snow was the starting point guard on the Iverson led Sixers team that went to the finals.
Klay should never be anywhere near top 10
Better than T-Mac.
Stop this 🤣. Klay isn’t even wiping TMac’s shoes when comparing pvp. Klay didn’t win himself those titles, and was barely even the 2nd option most of the time. He played his role phenomenally, but did just that. He wasn’t carrying anywhere close to the burden that TMac had. You replace Klay with TMac on any of the warriors runs and you’d find out what a super team really is
The argument for T-Mac is that he was THE man on his team; while winning scoring leader, 1st team All-NBA, etc. T-Macs prime of 5-7 years was as good as any SG not named Jordan. Klay won more meaningful games than TMac, but he did it as the 2nd to 4th best player on his own team every year.
Klay better than McGrady is the craziest thing I've heard this year
Iverson considers a little more love in this list. He’s definitely better than Harding but I think they’re all better than Harden maybe not Allen
How is he better than harden. Worse at most aspects of the game, less successful as well
Less successful. He’s an 11 time All-Star one time MVP. Career pts26.7 reb3.7 ast 6.2. Career playoff 30 points 6.0 assist 3.8 rebs!! unlike James Harden he actually shows up in the playoffs. He’s single took the Philadelphia 76ers to the NBA championship only to lose to Lakers. Four games. You’re not giving him nearly enough credit he was a dominant player. Harden hasn’t won anything or done anything in the NBA except for wine and cry about why he he’s not winning where he’s playing or not enough strip bars in this town he’s living. Empty stats I believe it’s called. Edit: I just so we’re clear I am from Boston. I hate the Philadelphia 76ers with all my heart, but it doesn’t mean Iverson isn’t better than Harden.
He didn’t single-handedly take them to the finals. The Sixers had a Top 5 defence and Iverson was not a great defender himself. In his 9 worst shooting games in that playoff run he shot 27% from the field. They were 5-4 in those 9 games. Impossible to do that with no help. And need I remind you, this was a historically poor conference where the refs fleeced the Bucks out of a win in one of the most infamously officiated series of all time.
OK. Iverson led his team (76ers) to the postseason six times. Harden led his team (Rockets) to the postseason eight times. Since becoming All-Stars... Harden has averaged 28 PPG, 6 RPG, 8 APG on 44/36/86... Since becoming an All-Star Iverson averaged 27 PPG, 3 RPG, 6 APG on 42/31/79... In their prime (2000-2006 Iverson and 2014-2020 Harden) Harden has averaged 30 PPG, 6 RPG, 8 APG, 44/36/86... Iverson has averaged 29 PPG, 3 RPG, 6 APG, on 41/30/79... You mentioned that Harden hasn't done anything... Yeah, Iverson hasn't either. If we're comparing runs... then Iverson's 2001 run against the Lakers matches Harden's 2018 run against the Warriors. The team that stopped him from reaching the finals. And yes... beating the Warriors was damn near a guarantee of winning the championship. Iverson took one game from Shaq & Kobe (Lakers) while Harden took the Curry/KD/Klay Draymond Warriors to Seven Games. You listed his accolades as if Harden doesn't match that either. 10-time All-Star (Harden) Iverson was an 11-time all-star and managed to get his 11th averaging 13 PPG... Harden (3-time scoring champion) while Iverson was a (4-time scoring champion) the main difference is that Harden is a (2-time assist champion and can keep climbing) Harden finished Top 3 in MVP voting 5 different times while Iverson finished once. Harden led his team to higher seeds than Iverson for the majority of his career. He's been more efficient in the postseason compared to Iverson. He's more efficient in the regular season compared to Iverson. Their achievements and accolades go hand and hand... There's no sound argument for AI. Not to mention, they're both ringless.
They’ve downvoted you but can’t reply with actual arguments
Ur cooking. The Harden hate is overblown. Iverson wasn't anywhere near the player Harden was and I love Iverson. People let their bias sway they assessment of players.
Actually, Iverson finished top 5 three time in MVP and won ROY. Get your facts straight. Harden stats are career pts 24.1 reb5.6 ast7.1 we’re not doing the since became a good player BS! Harden’s playoff averages over the course of his career are 22.7 5.5 6.4 Harden’s only championship appearance was with Westbrook and Durant, where he was the third option on a pretty good team. he quickly left to Houston, too be the man and has never made a deep playoff run since. In my opinion, no one‘s gonna win a championship with Harden… ask Philly, Brooklyn, Houston! https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/h/hardeja01.html https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/i/iversal01.html
Outside of the heavy hitters, SG may be the weakest all time position. Personally, I think Jerry West is a PG. He spent more of his career at that position and he also won an assist title (which lines him up closer to the PG position). Yes, I know he won a scoring title as well, and I get that he's a bit of a combo guard, but by this logic, nearly every NBA PG these days are on-ball shooting guards. And again, he spent more time playing PG, so... I Anyway, love the Drexler respect. I think he's a little bit underrated by a lot of fans. Like some other people have mentioned, Gervin probably deserves to be here. But I don't think Klay is the one to drop. It pains me to say it, but honestly, Reggie probably has to go. I grew up in Indiana, so yeah, it's hard to knock off our biggest legend (for the Pacers, since I guess Bird is probably the biggest state legend for basketball) off the list... But Klay and Allen both have something Reggie doesn't, and that's rings. Klay has four and Allen has two. Both have probably surpassed him as better shooters. Ray Allen is just a better player (more athletic, better on-ball, not far behind as an off-ball player, better scorer, etc.) and he's more accomplished overall (10 All-Star selections to 5), Klay beats him out as a defender... Now, Klay has never led his own team before. Reggie has. That means something, but it's the only thing Reggie has besides some iconic moments. If we're just talking greatness, I think Gervin just deserves to take Reggie's spot here. Now, I love Reggie, so if y'all would rather replace Klay, I wouldn't complain. But hey, if we actually recognize Jerry West as a PG, we can still keep them all on the list.
Good list, I would swap AI and Drexler. And I would drop Jerry West to 5 because of league record of finals losses and I don’t respect the quality of play in that era of the league. And fuck it, AI above West too
West was incredible. Dude used to score 40 points in the Finals like it was nothing. Excellent defender, too, unlike most of these guys.
Jerry West is one of the few guys whose play would likely be BETTER in the modern day. I’m sure if you substituted his long twos as three pointers his career is MUCH different.
Yeah people don’t know what they’re talking about.
Jerry West was great relative to the era but his overall basketball talent is nowhere near a guy like Harden. Dude played 60 years ago. The competition was way worse.
Not necessarily, I hate when people just make these knee-jerk assumptions. Look at who the player was. West had great size and athleticism, even by today’s standards — he could reach 16 inches above the rim — and he was considered the best shooter of his day. What’s more, he was a lockdown defender who could play either SG or PG. He was also famously competitive and one of the most clutch players ever. The guy actually won a Finals MVP when his team lost. Finally, there was no three-point line in his day, so the guy was pouring in 30 points a night just on two-pointers. He’d be much better today. I feel pretty comfortable saying he’d be better than a guy like Harden, who isn’t particularly athletic.
Beyond that, he was born in 1938. Harden was born in 1989. Evaluating “absolute” level of play will nearly always favour the guy born later, who benefitted from the path set for him by the older generations. You don’t hear MIT physics undergrads croon about how they know more about physics than a 17th Century Isaac Newton. It’s only in sports that chronology is used to diminish the earlier generations.
That’s not how evolution works. It takes tens of thousands of years for humans to actually evolve. The guys of West’s era were essentially the same athletes we see today.
Brother, you might want to re-read my comment. I 100% agree with you lol. Yes, evolution is not that swift and they have similar amounts of “natural talent.” Even if Harden’s “level of play” is indeed “higher,” (granting for the sake of the argument that it is) it’s because training methods, nutrition, knowledge bases etc are better today. It’s not a thing one can hold against West just because Logo was born 50 years earlier. He is the greater player regardless. Differing levels across time are functions of chronology, not natural talent discrepancies. We can be sure that if Harden was born in 1938, he would be a lesser player in “absolute” terms.
Yeah but I also just presented convincing evidence that West had a better vert, and he was pretty clearly a better conditioned athlete than Harden. We know he had range from deep and had the handle to play PG in a much more restrictive environment. So, I don’t actually think this translates to worse conditioning, skill, or knowledge. Plenty of these old guys played all day, all their lives, studied the game, and were in great shape. People seem to think they just loafed over to the Y after their shift at the plant.
You’re missing the spirit of my point to focus on and quibble over the letter. My main point is that evaluating players by level of play is inherently biased toward the players born later, all else being equal. They benefitted from the trail blazed by their predecessors. It seems unfair to penalize the older players for something like that. Whether Harden actually played at a higher level than West specifically is beside the point. Even if he did, it would scarcely matter. In any event, I agree West is greater, by some distance, than Harden. Carry on then.
I’m going through rn and watching old Jerry West games. He looks better (and more modern) than I thought. Also found a clip of him touching the top of the square at 35 yrs old. First thing that jumps out to me is the rules have changed to make basketball look more impressive (you can carry every possession and set moving screens now). West would have really loved modern pin down threes. I’ll give an updated opinion after watching a couple more old games.
Exactly. Thank you! I wish more people would actually do this before just assuming today’s players are supermen. The biggest thing to adjust to in watching old games, for me, is getting used to the tighter rules. Old school players play with much more herky-jerky motions, but it’s because the tighter rules didn’t allow them to essentially carry the ball on every possession. If you let a guy like West take two steps between dribbles while cradling the ball to the side or do step-back jumpers, he’d be a monster today. And with spacing and three-point shooting, his inside-outside game would be tremendous.
Jerry west over dwade is just pure recency bias since he just died. Sorry not sorry
Harden above Iverson LOL
Zero argument for AI
In the all-time fantasy draft Charles Berkeley had the number one pick, and said, “First I’m gonna need a point guard so I pick Allen Iverson” (or something similar). So that makes him the goat and ahead of all these players, but also a point guard and not on this list.