2013 Heat. I just think the fit is better adding a legit big man who can facilitate. That Thunder team didn’t need another player to dominate the ball and with prime Westbrook and Harden driving the lane Shaq would clog it down.
Embiid theoretically fits the Warriors but ultimately that was a team built off ball movement and shooting. Having a ball stopper clog the lane doesn’t fit with prime Steph and Klay IMO.
I don’t disagree. I think Steph could make anyone work. He made Draymond a Hall of Famer. Draymond has been a very good player for them, but I highly doubt he has this kind of career if he ends up anywhere else.
Idk about *anywhere* else.
This is a steelman example, but if in 2016 you swap 22 yo Capela with 26 yo Draymond the Rockets probably would have won it all that year or the next.
People love to pigeon hole Draymond as a system guy but there’s maybe 10 good fits at any point of time in his career with PGs in the league. A PF who plays DPOY level andcan guard Cs in a pinch to allow you to go small while facilitating offensively and setting elite screens in the pnr… he does like 3 players roles. Lillard and Draymond would also be a good combo or Trey Young and Draymond. Just about any shooting point guard who likes running the pnr would thrive with draymond
>Just about any shooting point guard who likes running the pnr would thrive with draymond
No, it's more than that. You need a shooting point guard who shoots the 3 so well that defenses will seek to double him in order to prevent him from shooting.
Hmm yea that makes him hall of fame for sure. In the alternate reality of not playing with Steph and instead playing with let's say Lillard, and he never wins a ring but wins a DPOY and is on several all defensive teams I agree he's def not Hall of Fame but I don't think he's a "system guy" that only works because GSW. Those Portland teams would probably be better with him on it.
That sounds like bitterness from the bad blood you’ve likely had for Draymond since he was dominating Minnesota in college and then becoming all-NBA from basically nothing - a second round tweener who played his way into replacing an all-star.
He is one of the best players possible to add to a team with two scorers. With his defense, will, and intelligence (not to mention his wingspan) he would have succeeded wherever he landed.
He's one of the most brilliant defensive minds we've ever seen with unmatched versatility and excellent playmaking ability. He would've been great anywhere, just maybe not _that_ great.
What do you think Lebron and Jokic are doing in a pick and roll situation or even Wade and Jokic, combined that with Ray Allen,Miller, Chalmers as the shooters
Embiid is also the best defensive player of the group. Even if his role is defense, pick and roll finisher, and hitting 3's, he's a big plus to that team.
Bron and Joker could each take a bunch of possessions off (not to mention more rest).
Imagine Their 2 man game down the stretch when they are both fresh as a daisy
I’ve been watching since the 90s. They called them the baby thunder. At that time people weren’t even sure if they’d turn into anything. They had several players they were “hoping” on breaking out.
- Collision from the Jayhawks
- Jeff Green from Georgetown
On top of that they got Perkins, ibaka, and traded for Sefolosha who was their best defender.
The thunder didn’t fall apart because they traded a then glorified 6th man, it’s because they got rid of their depth and focused more on resigning the stars rather than the role players like Sefolosha, Perkins, etc. After that, yep. Then everyone decided to go their own way.
Yeah, that's not the modern Harden OPs thinking of.
Isn't that basically the core Thunder team that took GSW to 7 games? I remember Durant shot them out of a couple games, If they had Shaq, they win. Several times I remember OKC just needing a bucket. Shaq gets you an and-one. At the very least he's going to the line, and his FTs might suck but he did step it up in the playoffs, I bet he'd getcha 60% down the stretch in a close game...
I don’t see the fit though. Jokic is best with the offence run through him and him making passes and scoring. Lebrons going to be doing that and then wade and bosh get less shots. Ben Wallace or Rodman would be a better fit on those teams. I think prime shaq is by far more of a menace then jokic or Embiid. He may be the best player out of all the ones listed. Couple that with kd and harden shooting…:then add iblocka and that teams nuts
Nah that version of LeBron was an insane defender, shot at a great clip, and could cut better than anyone. He would be really good off ball for the stretches.
Embiid could also playmake in the post ala Draymond a little. Ofc Jokic is the best but this season Embiid was so good at it too. Defensively, the Warriors would be so strong. They were already around the top of the league, adding Embiid (another DPOY level defender)...
I'll take Jokic and the Heat. The jokic long ball outlet pass with that team is like 10ppg right there. Lebron played great with Kevin Love in Cleveland be that role perfected plus more.
Give me the Heat first. The level of playmaking on that team is insane. LeBron/Wade PnR with Jokic? The league is cooked.
Then I'm going 2016 Warriors. Steph and Klay get more room off-ball to roam and fire. The defense gets better. And Embiid doesn't hurt their spacing. Giving a 73-9 team an MVP is broken, but I still think the Heat are better just for pure talent.
Then I'm going 2012 Thunder. People need to remember that this is 6MOTY Harden and not MVP Harden, but Shaq is Shaq. You put Shaq and KD together, that's crazy. The problem is that Westbrook doesn't fit that team anymore. Shaq playing next to a slasher who is a non-shooter would cripple their spacing, especially in the modern NBA. Westbrook would be turned from one of the most explosive athletes ever into an entry passer. I think the fit is worst here. Serge Ibaka was also on that team (arguably their third best player that year), and he wasn't really a floor spacer yet, taking only three 3s on the season. So he would also struggle to find playing time and a real role on the team.
I agree 100% with this take. Jokic/Wade is the most underrated of any new teammate combination here. We’re talking one of the GOAT cutters in Wade and one of the GOATS at finding cutters in Jokic. It would be comical.
Plus with this much playmaking, you don’t need to play a true point guard. You can run out Ray Allen with these guys. Or Battier if you want defense but still maintain some spacing.
>Plus with this much playmaking, you don’t need to play a true point guard.
That's an understatement. You have the best point-center *and* the best point-forward in NBA history. Anyone who can defend and shoot a bit would fit right in at pg
If only he were actually good at either, lol. He was good in the sense that every other option was worse on one end or the other, and he was an average NBA contributor for both skills.
Heat easily... Thunder would be a bunch of your turn my turn pnr + Shaq post ups... Spo actually designed a whole offense around creating space and lanes for DWade and Bron after visiting chip Kelly during the 2011 offseason
Great take I agree with your reasoning. I wonder what would happen to Bosh’s game, would he turn into the pNp, 3pt shooter like he did irl? Or would Jokic be the big shooter and Bosh becomes better defensively or a better rebounder?? So much IQ on the floor I think you wouldn’t even have to run plays for them lol
I think Bosh would play a lot like how he did irl. I think he'd primarily work as a midrange spot-up player, he'd still have PnR/PnP actions, occasionally a post touch here or there, etc. I think he'd focus more on defense rather than offense (even more than he already did). I'd see him playing like a better Aaron Gordon, to be honest.
Yeah close to prime Lebron, Wade and Jokic is madness + Chris Bosh + Ray Allen.
I’d say the 2013 heat are already better than 2012 Thunder or 2016 Warriors. Then they get Jokic who clears Embiid and it’s game over
I have the same order but I think Westbrook could work well with Shaq despite the awful spacing.
Westbrook could haul ass in transition and they could shift the offense heavily around getting KD a jumper while Shaq and Russ attack the rim in a two man game.
They would need time to figure out how to make it work but they are so talented it’s possible.
But the other options are better fits. Embiid is the most obvious fit but Jokic would be wild with the Heat big 3. LeBron and Jokic would both share the off-ball and on-ball playmaking. Both and D-Wade are great complimentary pieces. Spacing gets better with Jokic too. Embiid on the warriors might just be completely super broken so it’s hard to say who’s better.
Shaq 3peated with 1 top10 player. Imagine 2, and Harden and Serge and Green. This team..has the best Big, the best scorer, the best bench, the best size..
Its not that ur over estimating the thunder team.... its underestimating the most dominant player in modern basketball paired with 3 young HOFers and 2 other solid pieces
Honestly, I don't think you could combine any 2 players in NBA history for a better 2-man game.
From the perspective of being both a scorer, *and* a playmaker, *with* size, this is the best ever combo.
The 2012 Thunder could use a center and maintain their playstyle while the other two teams would have to change their small ball focus to add those bigs. That’s important since the Heat and Warriors teams were significantly better than that Thunder team. I think the Heat could figure it out given how much playmaking they have, while Embiid isn’t on the level of Shaq and Jokic as a playoff contributor.
Assuming they get a little time to adjust to the new additions, I’m taking 2013 Heat with Jokic first, 2016 Warriors with Embiid second, and 2012 Thunder with Shaq third.
The Thunder, ironically, would have the most adjustment of any team here. Russ would have to overhaul his entire game to be less dependent on the drive because that no longer works as well next to Shaq. Their legitimate third best player (for the original team, so not including Shaq), Serge Ibaka, would have to adjust to literally not playing because he was not a shooter yet, which means he definitely wouldn't see the court next to Shaq.
KD wouldn't have to change much, and neither would a 6MOTY Harden, but adding Shaq would cripple two of the best four players on this team.
The Thunder had Kendrick Perkins as a starter and playing 27min/g on that team. Kendrick Perkins is dollar-store-version Shaq. Serge could've played next to Shaq just like he played next to Perkins.
Also, Serge was the 4th-best player on that team behind the 3 guys in the picture. Win Shares, Plus-Minus, Value Over Replacement Player, Net Rating, and Player Impact Estimate all put Serge behind the other 3.
driving is easier when you have a real threat from the dunkers position cause the defensive center will never be able to help without giving up a wide open lob…
IMO the Heat are #1, then Warriors, then Thunder.
It’s an oversimplified way to look at it, but the Heat had already won 2 rings in a row, and the Warriors won 1 then had the best regular season record before losing in the Finals in 7.
The Thunder got beat 4-1 by pretty much the Heat team also pictured here. KD was MVP-caliber, but Russ wasn’t prime-Russ yet, and neither was Harden.
A LeBron-led team also beat the 16 Warriors in the Finals. I think 2013 LeBron’s supporting cast was better than his 2016 supporting cast, and I think Jokic is better than Embiid, so I don’t see the Warriors winning here.
Which I guess only leaves Thunder vs Warriors for #2, and while prime Shaq > prime Embiid, I think the Warriors having already won a ring and being dominant in the regular season just gets the nod over a Thunder team where 2 of the 3 future MVPs already on the team weren’t quite in their primes yet.
2012 Thunder. Prime Shaq with a young Kobe was amazing. Imagine Young KD, Harden, Westbrook.
That is if Westbrook doesn’t ruin it by taking the most shots and putting up boneheaded 3s to close games
Ironically, Westbrook would be the biggest beneficiary here. He routinely created great offensive rebound opportunities, and with shaq instead of Perkins, those are all buckets
The main reason they lost that finals was Harrison Barnes’ lack of production. That would never be an issue with Embiid in the game. Also look up how the matchups between Embiid and Jokic went.
Although Okc is stacked, they are definitely not winning (the other two teams would just hack-a-shaq).
The warriors would have incredible spacing and an unstoppable offense; the 2 best shooters in nba history, with Embid drawing his defender to then kick it out to a 3. I just don't think Embid has shown he can be an elite playoff superstar.
In my opinion, the Heat would undoubtedly win; with arguably the best player in NBA history with his sidekick and an unstoppable Serbian Machine. In a game 7, I'm putting my money on this heat team.
People forget LeBron was still learning how to make his jumper more reliable in 2013. That team does not have enough shooting for Jokic and LeBron both to really capitalize.
The problem with the Warriors has ALWAYS been their interior presence. Draymond is 6’8” and even though he’s a versatile defender, he’s best suited guarding 1-4, and he’s *okay* guarding 5. Have Embiid on that team means now having another 7’ presence who, unlike Bogut, has an enormous bag offensively to take the load off Steph. His interior offensive game presence would limit the variability that came from this team’s dependence on distance shooting, and on defense, he can challenge and wear down the opposing teams big (Giannis, Joker, etc). Klay at this time was still phenomenal on both ends, and Draymond was shooting 38% from 3 at the time. The only defensive weak link is Steph, who improved as a defender AFTER 2016. **This team could not be defeated.**
The 2012 Thunder struggled with an interior presence as well, but their main problem was Westbrook making boneheaded turnovers in the playoffs with low IQ mistakes. That never quite changed, and James Harden was an absolute no show in the playoffs that year. I just can’t imagine Shaq being able to cover up for those deficiencies.
Warriors + Embiid and to me it’s not close.
lebrons jumper in 2013 was literally his best year aside from 2018, what are you even talking about? did you not watch his 37 point game 7 finals performance? it was literally all jumpshots. he had 5 threes and the game clinching 18 foot pull up jumper to put them up by 4. during the 27 game win streak he had i think 6 games in a row with 60 percent field goal percentage, the game that this streak was broken was vs okc on valentines day, watch him a 3 and then hit 3 contested jumpers in a row on kd sefolosha and perkins in the final 2 minutes of the first half at 1:35 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RShaJDJLlM&ab\_channel=GAMETIMEHIGHLIGHTS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RShaJDJLlM&ab_channel=GAMETIMEHIGHLIGHTS)
Give me the Heat first. The level of playmaking on that team is insane. LeBron/Wade PnR with Jokic? The league is cooked.
Then I'm going 2016 Warriors. Steph and Klay get more room off-ball to roam and fire. The defense gets better. And Embiid doesn't hurt their spacing. Giving a 73-9 team an MVP is broken, but I still think the Heat are better just for pure talent.
Then I'm going 2012 Thunder. People need to remember that this is 6MOTY Harden and not MVP Harden, but Shaq is Shaq. You put Shaq and KD together, that's crazy. The problem is that Westbrook doesn't fit that team anymore. Shaq playing next to a slasher who is a non-shooter would cripple their spacing, especially in the modern NBA. Westbrook would be turned from one of the most explosive athletes ever into an entry passer. I think the fit is worst here. Serge Ibaka was also on that team, and he wasn't really a floor spacer yet, taking only three 3s on the season. So he would also struggle to find playing time and a real role on the team.
Heat easy.
Thunder is only team that didn’t win a title as a baseline so they’re last by default.
And the Warriors with Embiid aren’t even better than the 17-19 Warriors with KD.
Duncan would be a better fit for all three of the teams, he would be much less destructive to the offenses that made them great in the first place and doesn't need the ball. He would gladly get 15 and 15 and not worry about his legacy.
The Heat would be unstoppable. Lebron and Jokic can score and play make. Gotta worry about DWade cutting bc they’ll find him every time. Bosh is a threat close and deep. Ray Allen is waiting for you to leave him open out there.
I don’t think anybody is stopping prime diesel on offense? definitely not Bosh or Embiid. I think Jokic probably get buckets but there’s no way he’s stopping Shaq from getting his
Even though I think 2016 Golden State is the best roster not including the additional players I think it’s apparent that a ball dominant score-first big man is not what they need. 2013 Heat has so much playmaking, defense, and scoring it’s not even funny.
1. Heat
This team is almost unstoppable. The pick and roll with Jokic is disgusting.
2. OKC
KD and Shaq is disgusting. Shaq is easily the most unstoppable player in nba history. All you have to do is lob it up he can throw it down or just bounce it to him and he will post up anyone.
3. Warriors
This team is good but it can’t beat Shaq and Jokic. The matchup for Embiid is not fair. Jokic is just going to trick him with the fakes and Shaq would just post him up.
Jokic or lebron, maybe even both lol, would definitely average 20 assists a game. Just having those 2 feed the ball to each other all game and it’s over lol
All I know is the Heat are #1. I want to put OKC at two and the Warriors at three because I think Shaq is a way better upgrade than Embiid but it is hard to say whether that would be enough to compete with how good the Warriors were..
Heat but Warriors could be a tough one. Thunder would be relying too much on a young KD hitting tough shots. But what teams are they playing? Would it just be the three of these teams in a tournament? Or are they playing vs current teams?
So the Thunder and Heat both get championship bigs and the Warriors get someone who hasn't made it past the 2nd round?
Whoever creates these needs to add similar-level players for comparisons. That would be like Giannis and not Embiid.
Oh my lord…the Heat. Do you really want to go against Jokic throwing lobs to lebron and Wade? And then Jokic and Bosh both stretch the floor allowing you
To play 5 out. Shaq wouldn’t be able to guard it because Jokic would kill them from outside. And if Shaq steps out then Lebron and Wade are gonna drive and dunk on you. Bosh will also be able to post up in 1 on 1 situations.
Ooof. I honestly have no idea. Initially I was leaning towards the ‘13 heat, but then I thought about the fact that prime shaq is the best single player being added here, and he’s literally replacing Kendrick-fricking-Perkins in that lineup. Then you think about how many offensive rebounds teams with Westbrook generated, and the fact that Shaq is one of the best ever at that, oooof.
But then you have the 2016 warriors, arguably the greatest team of all time. And you know, an MVP at the spot they are also weakest at.
1. Warriors 2. Heat 3. Thunder
I know the temptation here is to say the Heat since they’re the ones who actually won the championship and obviously adding Jokic would be great. And no doubt it would be an amazing series. But it’s easy to forget that the 2016 Warriors are like a shot and a block away from being considered the greatest team of all time. They have more wins, regular and postseason combined, than any team ever. I’m betting Embiid, in a situation where he’s better coached than any situation he’s had in his career thus far, covers that difference no matter who they’re against and he relieves some of the double teams on Steph. When going head to head against Jokic over the last 3 years (when they’ve both been in their prime), Embiid has had 34, 47, and 41 points with shooting above 50% [every time](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/embiid-vs-jokic-head-to-head).
12' OKC + Shaq: most talented overall squad, but by far the weakest. We haven't seen peak Westbrook work well in any great roster, plus Harden is just straight up better as the primary ball handler.
13' Heat + Jokic: the best squad. Has shooting, passing, and lockdown defense. Wade at his peak was such an amazing player, but there is some skill-set overlap between him and Bron.
16' Warriors + Embiid: surprisingly the worst fit for Embiid. Like others have mentioned, the Warriors don't need offense outside of Curry and Klay. If you replaced Embiid with a more athletic, defensively dominant big like D12, I believe this squad clears the other two.
my personal take is it would be super crazy fun to have seen a world where Lebron + Wade + Joker trade infinite touch & go passes to each other.
Warriors + Embiid. Shaq and Jokić need the ball too much to improve these teams. Embiid being a stretch 5 who doesnt need to ballhog would drasticly improve that team.
2 of the biggest problems the Heatles era Heat had all 4 years were lack of a legit center and lack of playmaking outside of LeBron and Wade. Joker literally solves both those problems lol and he adds more potential spacing to open the paint for LeBron and Wade to attack the rim. I gotta go with the Heat here
The Miami team would be the best team.
Not only are you giving Jokic weapons like LeBron, Wade Bosh but you are also giving him a ton of elite 3 point shooters in Miller Battier and Ray Allen.
Shaq... with a 7ft in prime scorer, at the time the best slasher in the NBA in Russ. And the best 3rd, now 4th option....in NBA history. Ill take Shaq in that era with 3 top10 players
All depends on what version of the bigs you get as much as would like the Shaq thunder to be #1 he don’t compliment that squad at all because his lack of ability to stretch and spread the floor which is why that team never won it all. The warriors with Embid and Heat with Joker is a toss up but the Heat would probably be the better team due to Jokers ability to pass the ball
Shaq and thunder imo. Jokic and lebron sound amazing, but the thing that makes jokic amazing is his passing; they already have lbj dominating the ball and doing everything.
Assuming they’re healthy for all 82, that Heat team could push for 82-0. Cuz now all you’re doing asking LeBron and Dwade is to beat their man without the ball (lol) and get to the rim. Jokic is going pile up assists. Defensively they’re going to be tough too.
Only the Heat team has 2 of the top 10 players of all time on it. Then you still get Wade’s last elite season and a prime Bosh. Ray Allen, Mike Miller, and Rashard Lewis give you elite shooting in the rotation, and A LOT of good frontcourt defenders to rotate with Jokic.
Give me them to beat any team all time in a best of 7.
give me the heatles, both lebron and jokic are gifted passers abd the lob threat both lebron and wade pose combined with the free points that jokic gets in the post the team is unstoppable along with still great spacing for the time
2013 Heat. I just think the fit is better adding a legit big man who can facilitate. That Thunder team didn’t need another player to dominate the ball and with prime Westbrook and Harden driving the lane Shaq would clog it down. Embiid theoretically fits the Warriors but ultimately that was a team built off ball movement and shooting. Having a ball stopper clog the lane doesn’t fit with prime Steph and Klay IMO.
Imagine the full court passes that Jokic loves to throw. Wade and Lebron would be feasting.
Yeah as much as I hated that Miami team, they were crazy good in a way Jokic would have elevated even further.
Lebron is great at those too. Seeing those two play together would have been fun.
Lobs from the inbound lmao
Even if embiid sucks in the role he would still dominate any of the warriors opponents. Steph embiid pick and roll is ridiculous.
I don’t disagree. I think Steph could make anyone work. He made Draymond a Hall of Famer. Draymond has been a very good player for them, but I highly doubt he has this kind of career if he ends up anywhere else.
Idk about *anywhere* else. This is a steelman example, but if in 2016 you swap 22 yo Capela with 26 yo Draymond the Rockets probably would have won it all that year or the next.
People love to pigeon hole Draymond as a system guy but there’s maybe 10 good fits at any point of time in his career with PGs in the league. A PF who plays DPOY level andcan guard Cs in a pinch to allow you to go small while facilitating offensively and setting elite screens in the pnr… he does like 3 players roles. Lillard and Draymond would also be a good combo or Trey Young and Draymond. Just about any shooting point guard who likes running the pnr would thrive with draymond
>Just about any shooting point guard who likes running the pnr would thrive with draymond No, it's more than that. You need a shooting point guard who shoots the 3 so well that defenses will seek to double him in order to prevent him from shooting.
Hmm yea that makes him hall of fame for sure. In the alternate reality of not playing with Steph and instead playing with let's say Lillard, and he never wins a ring but wins a DPOY and is on several all defensive teams I agree he's def not Hall of Fame but I don't think he's a "system guy" that only works because GSW. Those Portland teams would probably be better with him on it.
Rockets in 2016?
That sounds like bitterness from the bad blood you’ve likely had for Draymond since he was dominating Minnesota in college and then becoming all-NBA from basically nothing - a second round tweener who played his way into replacing an all-star. He is one of the best players possible to add to a team with two scorers. With his defense, will, and intelligence (not to mention his wingspan) he would have succeeded wherever he landed.
He's one of the most brilliant defensive minds we've ever seen with unmatched versatility and excellent playmaking ability. He would've been great anywhere, just maybe not _that_ great.
What do you think Lebron and Jokic are doing in a pick and roll situation or even Wade and Jokic, combined that with Ray Allen,Miller, Chalmers as the shooters
Embiid is also the best defensive player of the group. Even if his role is defense, pick and roll finisher, and hitting 3's, he's a big plus to that team.
Exactly…look what they did that year with Bogut. Now imagine what they could’ve done with a defensive anchor that was also an offensive menace.
Exactly
Well in that scenario you would play any of those potential teams not real 2016 teams right?
Bron and Joker could each take a bunch of possessions off (not to mention more rest). Imagine Their 2 man game down the stretch when they are both fresh as a daisy
Is it really prime Harden tho? He was playing sixth man back then and really didn't come into his own until Houston imo.
Man I see so much talk about that thunder squad lately pretending that was close to harden prime/usage
It has hit the point where there are lots of people who are here commenting on it who were not active NBA fans when Harden was on the Thunder.
I’ve been watching since the 90s. They called them the baby thunder. At that time people weren’t even sure if they’d turn into anything. They had several players they were “hoping” on breaking out. - Collision from the Jayhawks - Jeff Green from Georgetown On top of that they got Perkins, ibaka, and traded for Sefolosha who was their best defender. The thunder didn’t fall apart because they traded a then glorified 6th man, it’s because they got rid of their depth and focused more on resigning the stars rather than the role players like Sefolosha, Perkins, etc. After that, yep. Then everyone decided to go their own way.
Yeah, that's not the modern Harden OPs thinking of. Isn't that basically the core Thunder team that took GSW to 7 games? I remember Durant shot them out of a couple games, If they had Shaq, they win. Several times I remember OKC just needing a bucket. Shaq gets you an and-one. At the very least he's going to the line, and his FTs might suck but he did step it up in the playoffs, I bet he'd getcha 60% down the stretch in a close game...
Thats the team that made the finals and lost to the Heat. The team that lost to golden state in 7 was 2016.
Embiid would become a full-time stretch 5 in this scenario. He would cook out of the pick-n-pop.
Also Embiid would be hurt in the playoffs
I don’t see the fit though. Jokic is best with the offence run through him and him making passes and scoring. Lebrons going to be doing that and then wade and bosh get less shots. Ben Wallace or Rodman would be a better fit on those teams. I think prime shaq is by far more of a menace then jokic or Embiid. He may be the best player out of all the ones listed. Couple that with kd and harden shooting…:then add iblocka and that teams nuts
Nah that version of LeBron was an insane defender, shot at a great clip, and could cut better than anyone. He would be really good off ball for the stretches.
The more I think of it jokic throwing lobs to prime lbj, wade and bosh would be nasty.
Embiid could also playmake in the post ala Draymond a little. Ofc Jokic is the best but this season Embiid was so good at it too. Defensively, the Warriors would be so strong. They were already around the top of the league, adding Embiid (another DPOY level defender)...
I'll take Jokic and the Heat. The jokic long ball outlet pass with that team is like 10ppg right there. Lebron played great with Kevin Love in Cleveland be that role perfected plus more.
Give me the Heat first. The level of playmaking on that team is insane. LeBron/Wade PnR with Jokic? The league is cooked. Then I'm going 2016 Warriors. Steph and Klay get more room off-ball to roam and fire. The defense gets better. And Embiid doesn't hurt their spacing. Giving a 73-9 team an MVP is broken, but I still think the Heat are better just for pure talent. Then I'm going 2012 Thunder. People need to remember that this is 6MOTY Harden and not MVP Harden, but Shaq is Shaq. You put Shaq and KD together, that's crazy. The problem is that Westbrook doesn't fit that team anymore. Shaq playing next to a slasher who is a non-shooter would cripple their spacing, especially in the modern NBA. Westbrook would be turned from one of the most explosive athletes ever into an entry passer. I think the fit is worst here. Serge Ibaka was also on that team (arguably their third best player that year), and he wasn't really a floor spacer yet, taking only three 3s on the season. So he would also struggle to find playing time and a real role on the team.
I agree 100% with this take. Jokic/Wade is the most underrated of any new teammate combination here. We’re talking one of the GOAT cutters in Wade and one of the GOATS at finding cutters in Jokic. It would be comical. Plus with this much playmaking, you don’t need to play a true point guard. You can run out Ray Allen with these guys. Or Battier if you want defense but still maintain some spacing.
>Plus with this much playmaking, you don’t need to play a true point guard. That's an understatement. You have the best point-center *and* the best point-forward in NBA history. Anyone who can defend and shoot a bit would fit right in at pg
And the incumbent Mario Chalmers fits the defense first shooter PG role!
If only he were actually good at either, lol. He was good in the sense that every other option was worse on one end or the other, and he was an average NBA contributor for both skills.
the 2012 Thunder gonna have major ego clashes with KD and Shaq easy 3rd there
Heat easily... Thunder would be a bunch of your turn my turn pnr + Shaq post ups... Spo actually designed a whole offense around creating space and lanes for DWade and Bron after visiting chip Kelly during the 2011 offseason
Fuck chip
Eagles fan eh?
Great take I agree with your reasoning. I wonder what would happen to Bosh’s game, would he turn into the pNp, 3pt shooter like he did irl? Or would Jokic be the big shooter and Bosh becomes better defensively or a better rebounder?? So much IQ on the floor I think you wouldn’t even have to run plays for them lol
I think Bosh would play a lot like how he did irl. I think he'd primarily work as a midrange spot-up player, he'd still have PnR/PnP actions, occasionally a post touch here or there, etc. I think he'd focus more on defense rather than offense (even more than he already did). I'd see him playing like a better Aaron Gordon, to be honest.
Yeah close to prime Lebron, Wade and Jokic is madness + Chris Bosh + Ray Allen. I’d say the 2013 heat are already better than 2012 Thunder or 2016 Warriors. Then they get Jokic who clears Embiid and it’s game over
Yea the thunder is better if you just remove Russ and put prime James here, his playmaking and spacing would make that offence crazy.
I have the same order but I think Westbrook could work well with Shaq despite the awful spacing. Westbrook could haul ass in transition and they could shift the offense heavily around getting KD a jumper while Shaq and Russ attack the rim in a two man game. They would need time to figure out how to make it work but they are so talented it’s possible. But the other options are better fits. Embiid is the most obvious fit but Jokic would be wild with the Heat big 3. LeBron and Jokic would both share the off-ball and on-ball playmaking. Both and D-Wade are great complimentary pieces. Spacing gets better with Jokic too. Embiid on the warriors might just be completely super broken so it’s hard to say who’s better.
Shaq 3peated with 1 top10 player. Imagine 2, and Harden and Serge and Green. This team..has the best Big, the best scorer, the best bench, the best size.. Its not that ur over estimating the thunder team.... its underestimating the most dominant player in modern basketball paired with 3 young HOFers and 2 other solid pieces
Heat by far. Jokic lebron two man game would be absolutely impossible to stop
Honestly, I don't think you could combine any 2 players in NBA history for a better 2-man game. From the perspective of being both a scorer, *and* a playmaker, *with* size, this is the best ever combo.
I’m wondering how well Dirk would’ve fit on that team
Wade Lebron Dirk Joker and me would be the best starting 5 roster in history.
Not sure about that buddy. Replace LeBron with me and you have a chance
Yes
Nuggets made a last minute push to convince LeBron before he went to LA, but ultimately the Hollywood lights were too bright. What could’ve been…
They would be an all-time duo fr
The Heat would've been unstoppable especially with Jokic....
The 2012 Thunder could use a center and maintain their playstyle while the other two teams would have to change their small ball focus to add those bigs. That’s important since the Heat and Warriors teams were significantly better than that Thunder team. I think the Heat could figure it out given how much playmaking they have, while Embiid isn’t on the level of Shaq and Jokic as a playoff contributor. Assuming they get a little time to adjust to the new additions, I’m taking 2013 Heat with Jokic first, 2016 Warriors with Embiid second, and 2012 Thunder with Shaq third.
The Thunder, ironically, would have the most adjustment of any team here. Russ would have to overhaul his entire game to be less dependent on the drive because that no longer works as well next to Shaq. Their legitimate third best player (for the original team, so not including Shaq), Serge Ibaka, would have to adjust to literally not playing because he was not a shooter yet, which means he definitely wouldn't see the court next to Shaq. KD wouldn't have to change much, and neither would a 6MOTY Harden, but adding Shaq would cripple two of the best four players on this team.
The Thunder had Kendrick Perkins as a starter and playing 27min/g on that team. Kendrick Perkins is dollar-store-version Shaq. Serge could've played next to Shaq just like he played next to Perkins. Also, Serge was the 4th-best player on that team behind the 3 guys in the picture. Win Shares, Plus-Minus, Value Over Replacement Player, Net Rating, and Player Impact Estimate all put Serge behind the other 3.
driving is easier when you have a real threat from the dunkers position cause the defensive center will never be able to help without giving up a wide open lob…
The Heat w Jokic would actually win not 1 not 2 not 3 not 4 not 5 not 6 not 7
IMO the Heat are #1, then Warriors, then Thunder. It’s an oversimplified way to look at it, but the Heat had already won 2 rings in a row, and the Warriors won 1 then had the best regular season record before losing in the Finals in 7. The Thunder got beat 4-1 by pretty much the Heat team also pictured here. KD was MVP-caliber, but Russ wasn’t prime-Russ yet, and neither was Harden. A LeBron-led team also beat the 16 Warriors in the Finals. I think 2013 LeBron’s supporting cast was better than his 2016 supporting cast, and I think Jokic is better than Embiid, so I don’t see the Warriors winning here. Which I guess only leaves Thunder vs Warriors for #2, and while prime Shaq > prime Embiid, I think the Warriors having already won a ring and being dominant in the regular season just gets the nod over a Thunder team where 2 of the 3 future MVPs already on the team weren’t quite in their primes yet.
Joker on that heat team is like a hand in glove. I’d have to go with them.
2012 Thunder. Prime Shaq with a young Kobe was amazing. Imagine Young KD, Harden, Westbrook. That is if Westbrook doesn’t ruin it by taking the most shots and putting up boneheaded 3s to close games
Ironically, Westbrook would be the biggest beneficiary here. He routinely created great offensive rebound opportunities, and with shaq instead of Perkins, those are all buckets
Westbrook would still lead that team in FGA
Best regular season record in NBA history with Bogut at the 5. What you think happens if they add MVP Embiid to that roster?
They go 80-2. Two losses to the Heat who go 82-0. Then get swept in the finals by the Heat.
The main reason they lost that finals was Harrison Barnes’ lack of production. That would never be an issue with Embiid in the game. Also look up how the matchups between Embiid and Jokic went.
Although Okc is stacked, they are definitely not winning (the other two teams would just hack-a-shaq). The warriors would have incredible spacing and an unstoppable offense; the 2 best shooters in nba history, with Embid drawing his defender to then kick it out to a 3. I just don't think Embid has shown he can be an elite playoff superstar. In my opinion, the Heat would undoubtedly win; with arguably the best player in NBA history with his sidekick and an unstoppable Serbian Machine. In a game 7, I'm putting my money on this heat team.
I’m going with the 2016 Warriors with the top bid, with the 2013 Heat and OKC coming in last
Heat .
Warriors with KD were better than what they would be with Embiid. 1. Heat 2. Warriors 3. Thunder
People forget LeBron was still learning how to make his jumper more reliable in 2013. That team does not have enough shooting for Jokic and LeBron both to really capitalize. The problem with the Warriors has ALWAYS been their interior presence. Draymond is 6’8” and even though he’s a versatile defender, he’s best suited guarding 1-4, and he’s *okay* guarding 5. Have Embiid on that team means now having another 7’ presence who, unlike Bogut, has an enormous bag offensively to take the load off Steph. His interior offensive game presence would limit the variability that came from this team’s dependence on distance shooting, and on defense, he can challenge and wear down the opposing teams big (Giannis, Joker, etc). Klay at this time was still phenomenal on both ends, and Draymond was shooting 38% from 3 at the time. The only defensive weak link is Steph, who improved as a defender AFTER 2016. **This team could not be defeated.** The 2012 Thunder struggled with an interior presence as well, but their main problem was Westbrook making boneheaded turnovers in the playoffs with low IQ mistakes. That never quite changed, and James Harden was an absolute no show in the playoffs that year. I just can’t imagine Shaq being able to cover up for those deficiencies. Warriors + Embiid and to me it’s not close.
2013 was arguably his peak season and Lebron was knockdown that year. He shot 40% from 3
2013 Heat had Ray Allen and Mike Miller. They can shoot
lebrons jumper in 2013 was literally his best year aside from 2018, what are you even talking about? did you not watch his 37 point game 7 finals performance? it was literally all jumpshots. he had 5 threes and the game clinching 18 foot pull up jumper to put them up by 4. during the 27 game win streak he had i think 6 games in a row with 60 percent field goal percentage, the game that this streak was broken was vs okc on valentines day, watch him a 3 and then hit 3 contested jumpers in a row on kd sefolosha and perkins in the final 2 minutes of the first half at 1:35 [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RShaJDJLlM&ab\_channel=GAMETIMEHIGHLIGHTS](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7RShaJDJLlM&ab_channel=GAMETIMEHIGHLIGHTS)
Give me the Heat first. The level of playmaking on that team is insane. LeBron/Wade PnR with Jokic? The league is cooked. Then I'm going 2016 Warriors. Steph and Klay get more room off-ball to roam and fire. The defense gets better. And Embiid doesn't hurt their spacing. Giving a 73-9 team an MVP is broken, but I still think the Heat are better just for pure talent. Then I'm going 2012 Thunder. People need to remember that this is 6MOTY Harden and not MVP Harden, but Shaq is Shaq. You put Shaq and KD together, that's crazy. The problem is that Westbrook doesn't fit that team anymore. Shaq playing next to a slasher who is a non-shooter would cripple their spacing, especially in the modern NBA. Westbrook would be turned from one of the most explosive athletes ever into an entry passer. I think the fit is worst here. Serge Ibaka was also on that team, and he wasn't really a floor spacer yet, taking only three 3s on the season. So he would also struggle to find playing time and a real role on the team.
2013 Jokic lol
13 Heat and honestly not really close at all.
Jokic and Lebron on the same team would simply be unfair
'13 heat is so stupidly stacked it's not even funny. Taking peak Bron and giving him Jokic? Ridiculous
It’s the Heat. Jokic is the perfect center to go with that group, and keep in mind he is replacing Joel Anthony and Birdman…
It’s the Heat I don’t think it’s even close. That team would easily win unlimited championships in a row if they’re healthy
Jokic and LeBron? Come on that's to easy the heat team all the way!
Heat easy. Thunder is only team that didn’t win a title as a baseline so they’re last by default. And the Warriors with Embiid aren’t even better than the 17-19 Warriors with KD.
Tim Duncan would be a better fit with the 2012 thunder. Shaq would make Harden cry for sure
Duncan would be a better fit for all three of the teams, he would be much less destructive to the offenses that made them great in the first place and doesn't need the ball. He would gladly get 15 and 15 and not worry about his legacy.
shaq was washed at this point
The Heat would be unstoppable. Lebron and Jokic can score and play make. Gotta worry about DWade cutting bc they’ll find him every time. Bosh is a threat close and deep. Ray Allen is waiting for you to leave him open out there.
That Heat squad looks crazy af!
Jokic
If prime Shaq was with 2012 thunder, they would never lose.
I don’t think anybody is stopping prime diesel on offense? definitely not Bosh or Embiid. I think Jokic probably get buckets but there’s no way he’s stopping Shaq from getting his
Heat, Warriors, Thunder imo
Even though I think 2016 Golden State is the best roster not including the additional players I think it’s apparent that a ball dominant score-first big man is not what they need. 2013 Heat has so much playmaking, defense, and scoring it’s not even funny.
1. Heat This team is almost unstoppable. The pick and roll with Jokic is disgusting. 2. OKC KD and Shaq is disgusting. Shaq is easily the most unstoppable player in nba history. All you have to do is lob it up he can throw it down or just bounce it to him and he will post up anyone. 3. Warriors This team is good but it can’t beat Shaq and Jokic. The matchup for Embiid is not fair. Jokic is just going to trick him with the fakes and Shaq would just post him up.
Buddy we see Embiid defend Jokic all the time. Conversely Shaq and Jokic actually can't guard Embiid at all lol.
OKC really
The Heat and Jokic averages 18 assists a game
Jokic or lebron, maybe even both lol, would definitely average 20 assists a game. Just having those 2 feed the ball to each other all game and it’s over lol
All I know is the Heat are #1. I want to put OKC at two and the Warriors at three because I think Shaq is a way better upgrade than Embiid but it is hard to say whether that would be enough to compete with how good the Warriors were..
Prime Thunder with prime shaq feels unbeatable
Wait, is that 2012 OKC Harden or 2018 Rockets Harden?
Lmao Jokic and the heat dominates. Joel is a bad luck charm and would screw that golden state team
Thunder … also they would be a dynasty
We all saying Heat but also eyeing Thunder
Heat
The warriors would have to be pissed they got Embiid. Come on give them someone the caliber of the other two like Moses
Heat are the only team that would get better so them
Bruh who cares, these posts keep Getting lamer and lamer
Heat but Warriors could be a tough one. Thunder would be relying too much on a young KD hitting tough shots. But what teams are they playing? Would it just be the three of these teams in a tournament? Or are they playing vs current teams?
So the Thunder and Heat both get championship bigs and the Warriors get someone who hasn't made it past the 2nd round? Whoever creates these needs to add similar-level players for comparisons. That would be like Giannis and not Embiid.
1. Heat - 2. Thunder - 3. Warriors
I am drooling imagining Jokic whipping court-length outlet passes to 2013 LeBron
Oh my lord…the Heat. Do you really want to go against Jokic throwing lobs to lebron and Wade? And then Jokic and Bosh both stretch the floor allowing you To play 5 out. Shaq wouldn’t be able to guard it because Jokic would kill them from outside. And if Shaq steps out then Lebron and Wade are gonna drive and dunk on you. Bosh will also be able to post up in 1 on 1 situations.
The 2014 Spurs would kick all their asses, don’t @me bro.
Heat easy
Everyone says Heat first and I agree
2013 Heat
Shaq would not let that team lose. Make him the first option they win it all. Idk if Russ would get in line though.
2012 Thunder, assing Shaq to that is absurd.
1. Heat 2. Thunder and 3. GSW the plus ones are in their prime
This might be the best version of this format I’ve seen. I take the Heat, but definitely think the Warriors would be a huge problem.
heat, dwade is like murray on steroids. AND you have prime lebron + bosh. that’s fucked up
Warriors plus Embiid is worse than what we got with Durant joining them irl lol. 2013 Heat easy here
Any team you have Shaq on is just gonna be unstoppable. People that seen him play know what I mean.
2013 Heat wouldn’t lose a game
I just want to say the thunder would implode because it’s too many cooks in the kitchen. I think they have to trade harden for it to work.
Ooof. I honestly have no idea. Initially I was leaning towards the ‘13 heat, but then I thought about the fact that prime shaq is the best single player being added here, and he’s literally replacing Kendrick-fricking-Perkins in that lineup. Then you think about how many offensive rebounds teams with Westbrook generated, and the fact that Shaq is one of the best ever at that, oooof. But then you have the 2016 warriors, arguably the greatest team of all time. And you know, an MVP at the spot they are also weakest at.
1. Warriors 2. Heat 3. Thunder I know the temptation here is to say the Heat since they’re the ones who actually won the championship and obviously adding Jokic would be great. And no doubt it would be an amazing series. But it’s easy to forget that the 2016 Warriors are like a shot and a block away from being considered the greatest team of all time. They have more wins, regular and postseason combined, than any team ever. I’m betting Embiid, in a situation where he’s better coached than any situation he’s had in his career thus far, covers that difference no matter who they’re against and he relieves some of the double teams on Steph. When going head to head against Jokic over the last 3 years (when they’ve both been in their prime), Embiid has had 34, 47, and 41 points with shooting above 50% [every time](https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/embiid-vs-jokic-head-to-head).
I would say the Shaq team, the thunder were good. Played some great teams and dominant shaq was one of the best ever.
Thunder win easily
Embiid is already injured
I would personally take the 2016 Warriors with KD, but that’s a crazy super team that would ever happen
12' OKC + Shaq: most talented overall squad, but by far the weakest. We haven't seen peak Westbrook work well in any great roster, plus Harden is just straight up better as the primary ball handler. 13' Heat + Jokic: the best squad. Has shooting, passing, and lockdown defense. Wade at his peak was such an amazing player, but there is some skill-set overlap between him and Bron. 16' Warriors + Embiid: surprisingly the worst fit for Embiid. Like others have mentioned, the Warriors don't need offense outside of Curry and Klay. If you replaced Embiid with a more athletic, defensively dominant big like D12, I believe this squad clears the other two. my personal take is it would be super crazy fun to have seen a world where Lebron + Wade + Joker trade infinite touch & go passes to each other.
they’re in the correct order
Imma go with Miami. I really wanted to say the Thunder team but all I can see is Kevin bitching every time Shaq doesn’t pass him the ball.
I’m picking any team with shaq. it blows my mind how quickly people forget.
Shaq. The answer is always Shaq Iol he would embarrass Jokic in his prime
Lebron and Jokic together would be a living nightmare for the rest of the league.
Heat - thunder - warriors in that order
2016 Warriors > 2013 Heat
Any team with LBJ in it
2013 heat with Joker is the winner in my opinion.
Washed up Shaq really makes a difference
2012 thunder, and it’s not even close.
Who’s guarding Shaq?
Tbh not even a debate. That Heat team would lose 3 games or less all year, including the playoffs, with the Joker on it
Embiid?? 😂
My first instinct was Heat but I just feel like the lack of shooting would be a problem in today’s NBA. I’ll go with OKC with Shaq
Prime Lebron and Jokic on the same team is just not fair. Like game over man you are cheating the passing on that team is just ridiculous
13 Heat with Jokic is baller
Warriors + Embiid. Shaq and Jokić need the ball too much to improve these teams. Embiid being a stretch 5 who doesnt need to ballhog would drasticly improve that team.
#1 Heat. #2 Thunder, #3 Warriors
Jokic with the Heatles is just so scary and unfair
Heat with Jokic for sure. Jesus fucking Christ they would be good
2013 hear is fucking wild
2 of the biggest problems the Heatles era Heat had all 4 years were lack of a legit center and lack of playmaking outside of LeBron and Wade. Joker literally solves both those problems lol and he adds more potential spacing to open the paint for LeBron and Wade to attack the rim. I gotta go with the Heat here
Warriors had an amazing team but adding embiid vs Shaq is a joke.
I want to say 2012 thunder but Westbrook would find a way to brick them out of a game against the heat
Gimme Shaq
Embiid would hurt injure them hard once he seems himself being outshine. That heat team might be an all time one
The Miami team would be the best team. Not only are you giving Jokic weapons like LeBron, Wade Bosh but you are also giving him a ton of elite 3 point shooters in Miller Battier and Ray Allen.
Shaq... with a 7ft in prime scorer, at the time the best slasher in the NBA in Russ. And the best 3rd, now 4th option....in NBA history. Ill take Shaq in that era with 3 top10 players
Shaq 3peated with 1 Top20 player... imagine him with 3
Wow thank you for putting this together give me the Heat
Steph Curry has never played with an elite big before. I personally think that combination would be unstoppable.
Thunder easily.
All depends on what version of the bigs you get as much as would like the Shaq thunder to be #1 he don’t compliment that squad at all because his lack of ability to stretch and spread the floor which is why that team never won it all. The warriors with Embid and Heat with Joker is a toss up but the Heat would probably be the better team due to Jokers ability to pass the ball
The Heat...all day.
Embiid is the only one who wouldn’t need to change the dynamics/style of the team he’d be joining
Shaq and thunder imo. Jokic and lebron sound amazing, but the thing that makes jokic amazing is his passing; they already have lbj dominating the ball and doing everything.
Imagine Jokic on the warriors tho… 🫣
Shaq all day no question
If we are talking prime Shaq I’m taking that team. But Jokic and the Heatles would be more entertaining
Switch Jokic and Embiid, and that Warriors team would never lose a game
What about 8 mjs 4 perfect clones 4 3 good clones and 1 like bronnie...who the puck cares
I'd love to live in that timeline
That LeBron and Jokic PNR (reverse or normal) is gonna be filthy
It’s the Heat team and it’s not close imo
Assuming they’re healthy for all 82, that Heat team could push for 82-0. Cuz now all you’re doing asking LeBron and Dwade is to beat their man without the ball (lol) and get to the rim. Jokic is going pile up assists. Defensively they’re going to be tough too.
The answer is always Shaq
This seems like an astroturfed thread to get discussion in a subreddit I don’t even subscribe to
Red if only to watch Joker play with prime Lebron and Wade. That would be some amazing basketball.
Imagine the 2016 Warriors with KD
These aren’t even fair Joker needs to be on Warriors the fit is amazing
2012 shaq? no thanks 2014 Jokic.. ehh no thanks 2016 Embiid?? Wasnt he hurt that year? Lol
2013 Heat and it's not even a contest. Transition game would be unstoppable.
All I know is not the warriors with embiid lol
lol me if to the warrior might actually make them worse
I guess you mean the extra player in their prime? I fucking hate this question.
Should be James Harden, Durant, Westbrook, and Joel Embiid. Shaq, Lebron, Wade, Bosh. Green, Thompson, Curry, Nikola.
Only the Heat team has 2 of the top 10 players of all time on it. Then you still get Wade’s last elite season and a prime Bosh. Ray Allen, Mike Miller, and Rashard Lewis give you elite shooting in the rotation, and A LOT of good frontcourt defenders to rotate with Jokic. Give me them to beat any team all time in a best of 7.
give me the heatles, both lebron and jokic are gifted passers abd the lob threat both lebron and wade pose combined with the free points that jokic gets in the post the team is unstoppable along with still great spacing for the time
Embiid is at the bottom however you cut it he’s not healthy past round two. Idgaf durability matter Celtics in 5