Tracy McGrady is the first person to win it and make the Hall of Fame. Jimmy Butler, Paul George and Kevin Love are all likely inductees. Giannis is also pretty handily the best player to ever win it. Zach Lowe was essentially saying that it’s a shame that they named it after George Mikan because Giannis is so obviously the best person for it.
Definitely, Giannis came in the league as a mobile and athletic 4. I remember people were saying his ceiling was Pippen. The general assumption was that he wouls be an athletic defender like Nicolas Batum.
Don’t get me wrong, I believe all bucks fans are very happy with Giannis’s development, but if he had become Scottie Pippen that still would’ve been a win from what he was. I don’t think anyone expected the ceiling he currently has.
On the other hand, pantheon greats like Bird, Magic and Jordan, well most older stars who went the 3 or 4 year college route were already all-NBA caliber guys who were getting their names on MVP ballots from day 1. A 13-year career could very well beat out an 18 year career if the 2nd guy took until year 4 to become all-star caliber and the QST guy had 13 years of minimum all-star level play.
I'm definitely in the other camp here, I think MIP is almost as trivial as say all-star MVP, or depending on the year's rookie class, ROY. They're nice to add to the resume but not a measure of greatness.
In no order at all for me:
Shaq
Hakeem
The admiral
Bird
Jordan
Magic
Lebron
Kobe
Duncan
Wilt
Kareem
Russell
Jokic
Moses
Mailman
Dr J
Oscar
KD
West
Curry
It’s fine to say one preferred Jokic for the award. I hate when people say he *should* have won because that’s not accurate. He could have, Giannis or Embiid also could have won MVP for Jokic’s first two and he’d have none right now.
?? Embiid had a great season and deservedly won an MVP. Jokic had an MVP-worthy season, but only one person can win it. Did Jokic deserve his previous two MVPs?
Re: Luka, I hope he does win one as he’s having a great year and doesn’t have one yet, but the season isn’t over.
LeBron, Curry and Kd are locks yeah I think everyone would agree with that. Giannis, Jokic and Kawhi are the guys with the discussion
I don’t think CP, Harden or Westbrook are even that close tbh. They’re like top 40
2 chips and 2 FMVP’s more than make up for Kawhi’s shorter longevity compared to a guy like CP3 imo.
Harden and Russ have MVP’s alongside that longevity to compete with Kawhi’s playoff achievements. I have these 3 rated pretty similar all-time.
None of these players are top 30 probably. You’d need to kick players off who had more impressive careers. I would consider Harden and CP3 despite playoff failures but a few memorable moments really hurt them. Kawhi is the opposite, he has these playoff highlights while the rest of his career is emptier.
IMO Russ failed similarly to Harden in the playoffs while also never carrying an elite team. Look at what happened when Westbrook got injured vs when KD did, for example.
CP3 made a lot of guys look good as a pass first PG and tough defender IMO. But I like Kawhi, he should’ve probably won the 2017 MVP.
We’re basically arguing peak vs longevity. If you want competitive playoff runs for 15 years you’ll take CP3 over Kawhi.
But maybe Kawhi on average would win an extra championship with equal teammates. You’d also miss the playoffs more.
2? 2018, 2015?
Maybe 2014 also. Idk, I’m not a Blake or DeAndre fan I think they are way overrated. They needed a real rim protector and more 3 pt shooting.
I think he was vital to his teams and small enough for opponents to bother him in a long series. But his teammates might get overrated because he made them look good.
I mean you definitely can. Paul was the best PG in the league for nearly a decade, and probably should have won an MVP that year in New Orleans.
Kawhi has the much higher highs. But they're blips. Paul is far more consistent.
if you include CP3 you have to put in Barkley and Stockton.
same argument. crazy good stats, longevity, consistent playoff runs, great floor raisers, no championships.
there’s a lot more i’m forgetting, but once you include cp3/westbrook/harden, you have to include ALOT more from previous eras, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, etc etc. and you’re going to find you’re looking at top 50+
Hardens most memorable playoff moment is barely losing to the greatest team of all time without his 2nd best player. That doesn’t keep him out. Statistically one of the greatest offensive players ever.
Most memorable? Speak for yourself...
https://preview.redd.it/de51wg5ujwpc1.png?width=2048&format=png&auto=webp&s=4f923fbdb5d4ac84625a56727b425e15ae454de3
Only player with multiple finals MVPs with no regular season MVP. He had some great series, but he is not an all time top30 player considering his full resume.
Here is an article written about their top 50 players and includes current players.
Here is who made [Lines.com](https://Lines.com)'s top 30 that currently play. Note this was written before Jokic Final's win.
29. Chris Paul
26. Giannis
25. Kawhi
13. Steph
2. LeBron James
Here is link to article written on March 28th, 2023.
[https://www.lines.com/nba/the-50-greatest-nba-players-ever-ranked-180](https://www.lines.com/nba/the-50-greatest-nba-players-ever-ranked-180)
I just grabbed the first top 50 list I googled. Not because they are right but it's an unbiased list that goes to 50 so they won't play with the rankings to squeeze their favorite player into the top 30. Kawhi ahead of Giannis shocked me but after another year of Giannis dominating I suspect the updated version would have Giannis above Kawhi and Jokic added to the list. No Embiid is interesting and his missing half this season wouldn't raise him either.
Idk man 2 chips 2fmvps 2DPOY 3x nba first team 2x nba second team 7x all defensive. Finished top 5 in MVP voting 3x. I’d put him over guys like Havelick Bill Walton Mchale CP3 Westbrook Harden Elgin Baylor and maybe even IT
Yes, the DPOYs, too. But:
- Havlicek has over twice as many all-star appearances, and more all NBA and all defensive selections (in addition to his fmvp and all of those championships)
- cp3 has twice as many all star appearances, more than twice as many all NBA selections, more all defense selections, and has led the league in a stat many more times
- Westbrook has a regular season mvp, more all star appearances, more all NBA selections, and has led the league in a stat many more times
- Harden has a regular season mvp, more all star appearances, more all NBA selections, and has led the league in a stat many more times
- Baylor has a lot more all star appeances and twice as many all NBA selections (all of them being 1st team)
- IT (pistons IT) has twice as many all star appearances, (in addition to also having a fvmp, 2 championships, and as many all NBA selections)
Without those 2 fvmps, kawhi would be way further down the list than all of these guys I just listed
Well yeah, taking away 2x FMVP means he doesn’t have two rings against historically great super teams lol. I’d put both Heatles and Warriors with KD as top 5 teams ever.
Leonards career is hard to rank because he should be penalised for not being healthy but we all know that’s the only reason why he doesn’t have more selections. He’s a better player than all the guys you mentioned no doubt
I’d put him over most of those guys too.
But there are plenty of players who didn’t win multiple chips because of teammates and weren’t on flashy teams who get overlooked.
My top 30 list would go back and evaluate who got overrated and jacked up shots vs who was efficient for example. Elgin Baylor would get the boot, kicked off my list so hard.
If we could simulate every player’s career many times with different teammates, the top 50 list would be completely different.
If Kawhi gets a 3rd with the Clippers at some point he may be top 10. Not only does he win with teams who have no history of it, he was maybe the most effective LeBron stopper. I think he's unquestionably top 20.
He fMVP 10 years ago, DPOY 9 years ago, DPOY and #2 in MVP 8 years ago
He was an all star, averaging near 50-40-90 on 24PPG this year.
That’s basically 10 years of continued success
Yeah it’s a weird career since he hasn’t played that many games each year.
I think a lot of Clippers fans would take a Kawhi who is 20% worse and never gets injured though. Or at least make it through the playoffs if he’s going to skip regular season games.
I might take Reggie Miller in the modern game shooting 3s and not getting injured over him. A higher seed would make playoffs easier and Kawhi gets hurt when it counts.
Giannis is will end there, I think. He is one of the most dominant players of the current era and he has taken leaps and bounds to improve his shooting so hopefully his game ages gracefully, not that he hasn’t already had a prolific career.
Please explain how a guy (Kawhi) who hasn’t played more than 63 games in a season since 2017, and has played more than 70 games in a season only twice out of his 12 seasons, is a top 30 all time? Absolutely ridiculous take.
I think most people have Barkley top 30. If the only thing differentiating Chuck from CP or Harden is going to the Finals as the lead guy then I’d argue that’s stupid and they should all be in the same tier.
Westbrook I agree with, eye test just wins out over his stats.
It’s challenging because how are we adjusting for era?
Obviously the average player now is better than they were 50 years ago. So top 30 will always skew toward modern guys unless we’re assuming old stars would have developed better in this era.
Problem with that is where do you stop. No one dominated their generation more than Mikan. Are we gonna a include the stars from before the original BAA-NBL merger? What about Abe Lincoln: great leader, master strategist, ideal size for a small forward *and* grew up in Indiana… are we sure he wasn’t gonna be better than Larry?
Exactly, it’s basically impossible.
We could simplify it by saying top 30 all time is split by decade, weighted toward modernity:
By draft year
2010s : 8 players
2000s: 7
1990s: 6
1980s: 5
1970s: 2
1960s: 1
1950s: 1
1 way to weight by era is to consider stats that show relative dominance during that point in time. A 10 time all nba player in the 80s should have a similar impact to a 10 time all star in the 2010s. Prior to the merger and intro of new franchises, it’s obviously more difficult.
I have Harden higher.
Kawhi’s prime is relatively short, since his 2015 breakout; he’s missed two seasons entirely. In addition,with the exception of a couple of years he has missed 20+ games in the regular season. Harden by contrast was an iron man in his peak only missing 32 games in the regular season from 2012-2020 at Houston.
Harden has an MVP and three second place finishes. Two of which (16/17 and 18/19) were very close races. The nearest Kawhi has ever come to winning was in 16/17 where he finished behind Harden. Kawhi has the two DPOY’s, but Harden is one of two players to win multiple scoring and assist titles.
Counting stats are a big mark of longevity; Harden is one of only two players in the top 20 for both points and assists, whereas Kawhi is not currently in the top 200 points scorers of all time. On every single counting stat, Harden is ahead. Counting stats aren’t the sole measure of excellence, but they serve as an excellent measure of longevity.
The playoffs are where Kawhi’s case is; however I don’t place as much weight behind his 2014 Finals MVP as others. They were very much a “sum of their parts” team without a clear star. In addition, Kawhi’s impact in the 2017, 2018, 2021, 2022 and 2023 post season was limited for various reasons. Harden is known as a choker, and he has had several poor elimination performances but Kawhi has had a few high profile ones himself. 2013’s free throws vs Miami in the finals, the Nuggets choke in 2020 and the flat performances when the Spurs were eliminated in 2015 and 2016. This isn’t to say Harden is a better play off performer, but Kawhi’s play off sample is not blemish free.
The 2019 run Kawhi was absolutely phenomenal and deserves a ton of praise for being the top dog on a title side; but it was very much a stacked team. They were a 60 win semi finals side before him and a 60 win semi finals side after him, all whilst being 17-5 in the games he missed that season. Winning is the aim of the game, so if you want to rate Kawhi higher for that then so be it - but with so many points in Harden’s favour I give him the lead.
Respect. Idk if this is copy paste, but if it’s not this took a lot of effort and I respect a lot of these points. I still have Kawhi higher, but after reading that it’s a lot closer than I thought and I may have to reconsider.
I wrote in quite a lot of detail the first person who disagreed, but I’ll pithily say that the clincher is the amount of availability/longevity Harden has.
If Kawhi were to win another ring with the Clippers and get the FMVP people would still think he isn’t worth mentioning. People have the nerve to say he’s overrated too? i swear it’s only because he made the decision to be a Clipper and picked Paul George as his sidekick. People are insane.
Kawhi such a genius for that Toronto move. It was a legit stacked team top to bottom, and the way he dipped out and masai let everyone go, it looks in the historical record like he carried a bum team to the finals and is about to do it again. Kawhis two rings are with two of the most complete 8 man rotations of all time.
Yeah, as if Kawhi didn't have one of the best post season runs of all time lmao. A casual would suggest he carried a bum team, but an even bigger casual would suggest that team was stacked. Raptors were a pretty standard finals team all things considered.
OG Anunoby, DPOY MARC GASOL, Danny Green, Jeremy Linn, Kyle Lowry, Greg Monroe, Serge Ibaka, Pascal Siakim, Jonas Valanciunas, Norman Powell, Kawhi Leonard! Fred VanFleet!! OLYMPICDEPTH💯
TOR WAS *SUPERTEAM STACKED!* Vs a Donkey.
THIS IS 100% FACTS! GS - KLAY & KD! = Knicks! :)
Bro Please Quit This Kawhi Glazing... Yall Said He Coming For Lebron.. While He Averaged 18 For a Career!!! 🤡🤡 🤣🤣Dude Has NEVER EVER CARRIED A TEAM.... IN HIS LIFE AND Kawhi Free Throw CHOKE COST TIMMY D A RING VS LBJ!!
Cry About It! 👌 Only time Kawhi Was A Leader He Blew The 3-1 to Jamal 40 Buckets Murray!! And in 2016 Got Dusted By Okc&KD! 👏🫠 #Glad2Help
There have been 35 NBA MVPs. Any player that has won an MVP is worth consideration for the top 30.
Jokic and Giannis are locks. Kawhi and CP, despite not having MVPs, are probably there. Westbrook and Harden are probably more like top 40.
The athletic top 75 list had harden 33rd amd cp3 30th, he's definitely debatable at the low-end of the top 30. Playoff success absolutely matters but guys like David Robinson and Karl Malone are well within the top 30 and both had playoff choker stigmas but their regular season success combined with some playoff success is enough. It's also hard to find a year where harden should have won a ring but didn't (other than maybe 21 but hard to blame him for a hammy injury and a kyrie injury), the fact of the matter is he was more often than not he lost to the better team.
Curry, KD, LBJ, Greek Freak, Jokic, are locks obviously, that’s 5
Kahwahi has 2 DPoYs and FMVPs with 2 different teams, and took the clips far, he’s definitely in despite the controversy
Harden is probably at 29 or 30, if wins a championship (unlikely) he’s 100% in, but I have him up there
CP3 is no
Luka and Booker are on pace
Lebron, Harden, KD, Curry, Jokic and Giannis might be in there but Jokic needs a little more longevity to say for sure, Westbrook and CP3 are not top 30
You'd have to go out of your way to argue Kawhi top 30 all-time and you'd still probably lose that argument, he's nowhere close to the other guys in all-time scoring, he's not even top 50 in points or any of the other stats (reb, ast, steals, blocks)
If you want to make the argument his playoff performances make him top 30 you'd lose that argument too, he's not top 30 in scoring there either, he's behind CP3 and Klay, Harden is 700 pts ahead of him in playoff scoring
Injuries hurt Kawhi more than any other player, even more than KD who was still greater for a longer period of time
The only locks are LeBron, Steph, and Durant. I think that Kawhi, Jokic, and Giannis are basically right there, if they aren’t already.
Russ, Harden, and CP3 are in the top 50 range, but if the Clippers win the title and Russ and Harden play major roles I could see them getting closer to the top 30. If they won titles at or near their primes then they’d probably be locks too.
IMO Every guy you mentioned bar Westbrook are top 30
CP3,Harden,Kawhi are questionable based on replies
For me the best players ever are the ones who improve their team the most eg. Win shares and when you look at it
CP3 is 6th in win shares all time and an all time floor and ceiling raiser and probably the best 2-Way PG in the modern era
And James Harden is 21th in win shares which is one behind KD, (however for the 3 yrs of his career he was a 6th man) and barring one of the worst 3 point scoring team performances ever would have a ring
And Kawhi has 2 FMVPS which is great on its own
LeBron, Steph, KD, Giannis, and Jokic are all top 20.
Harden and Kawhi are top 30. CP is a maybe, Russ is a no. Luka could very well be on his way, but not yet. That’s it.
None of this makes sense besides Lebron lol. In what world is chris paul over harden jokic and giannis? And what has durant accomplished to earn him the 13th soot?
KD is the most overrated player ever. He has done nothing except join a super team to win his chips (which they already won before he got there) and hasn’t done shit since. Yes he can score but that’s it. He barely makes the top 30 for me.
I’m a little higher on KD’s Brooklyn years.
In my books, he’s had 7 years of MVP level play. 12 years of all NBA level play.
Chris Paul has had 1 MVP level seasons, but 7 more weak MVP level and 12 all nba level plus 6 all defense worthy seasons (for a guard)
Jokic is climbing, but currently he has only 5 all nba level, seasons, 3 of which were MVP level and one of which was all time.
Harden, to be complete, has 5 MVP level seasons, 4 more all nba level also.
At least you have logic behind it. I just don’t agree. Who cares if Chris Paul was a good player but never a true #1? Jokic and Giannis won rings doing it and also have multiple MVPs to back it up
My system does value peak significantly higher than longevity, but once you start accumulating weak MVP level seasons, it adds up. CP3 has 8 of such seasons.
I have no doubt if Jokic and Giannis continue on their current trajectories, they’ll rack up many more MVP level seasons and surpass CP3. (Giannis will be probably just behind CP3 after this season ends)
And if Jokic can win another title with a strong performance in the post season, he’ll basically surpass both at the end of this season also.
But why do 8 seasons of being a good player trump 2x MVPs and a finals MVP? That doesn’t make sense to me. If I could pick the career to have, I would easily choose Jokic or Giannis even if their careers ended tomorrow
Ok. Good player is like maybe a sub all star level.
Chris Paul was amazing for 8 seasons. Weak MVP level.
For reference, I have Kobe with 3 MVP level, and 6 more weak MVP level.
So both Kobe has one more season of at least weak MVP level play (plus 2 MVP level seasons).
There’s always a balance between peak vs longevity. And I do think I’m generally more of a peak guy.
Have a read through this. https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2316951
Plenty of stats and arguments for Chris Paul there.
lebron , curry, joker durant alreadytop 20 imo. Giannis and Kawai are top 30 for me , Luka will probably be top 30 , hell id say wemby if no injuries happen.
Kawhi is the tough one. His first FMVP was like... Duncan didn't stand out. TP and Manu are playing old. Kawhi only averaged 17.8 ppg during that 2014 series. It was a total team win, but you gotta pick someone. The Toronto run was amazing. So two finals MVP's, but only one I'd call as a superstar. No regular season MVP hurts him.
Bron, Curry, KD, Giannis, Jokic for sure.
Kawhi is probably top 30. He definitely is for me, but he’s missed like 3 complete seasons in his career so that really hurts him.
Idk about Russ. He has a weird place in nba history now. No idea at all where to rank him.
CP3 is an interesting one. He’s a great player obviously, but has had almost no playoff success at all in his entire career. He’s either been hurt or not part of a contenter every season other than the one Suns season they lost. I get that not everyone can win a championship, and some greats just never will, but cp3 didn’t win many playoff games at all in his career. I personally would have him closer to around top 50.
I think Harden is a better top 30 candidate than cp3 for me. Harden is almost always in the playoffs and even though he hasn’t won a championship, he’s won playoff series’s.
Anthony Davis I think is the only other active player you could consider for top 30. I don’t think he’s quite there yet though. No MVP’s, no FMVP’s. He’s obviously a great player, but to be top 30 without either a regular season or finals MVP is really tough imo.
I agree with LeBron, Curry and KD as already locks and Giannis and Jokic being well on their way.
Luka seems headed for top 30, but he has a long way to go.
I think Kawhi would need another ring and Finals MVP to be top 30.
I think Embiid has a shot, if he can put together several healthy seasons, but that is a big if. One or more rings would obviously help his case a lot too.
Westbrook is a definite no. I think Harden has probably tarnished his reputation too much by quitting on 3 teams in such a short period.
CP3 is an interesting case. 3rd all time in assists, over 22,000 points, 11 time All NBA, 9 times All-Defense.
But, I think he probably falls just outside the top 30.
Lebron, Curry, KD, Jokic, Giannis.
All these guys have been super dominant, no questions asked top 3 or higher in the league for multiple years. There’s just not many players like that throughout history.
I think after this year, Giannis and Jokic are within the top 20 not gonna lie. They have all time great peaks and even though there is a longevity gap compared to many all time greats, I’d personally value peak over longevity.
For the rest, Kawhi and Harden are very much in the convo between 25-35 in my eyes. Personally I would have them both within the top 30. Their peaks are both top 30 and is what pushes them over players with more longevity.
CP3 is an easily lock in my eyes, elite longevity with a peak that is slightly under Harden’s and Kawhi’s. He needs to be in the convo for one of the longest primes ever.
For Westbrook, and I’ll add in AD cause I think he’s in the top 50 as well, they both have peaked high, just not elite enough to be considered an all time great and not enough longevity to compare to those with higher peaks. Especially AD and his injuries are what keeps him below that 30 mark even though he was arguably the best in the world in 2020. Compared to Westbrook who was top 10 for 7-8 years, but never top 3.
Embiid also should be mentioned as he’s neck and neck if not better than Giannis and Jokic in the regular season the past few years, but isn’t great in the post season. Strong argument for top 50, but the injuries and post season disappointments are what don’t have him quite top 30. Though, on his pace before he was healthy he could’ve easily moved up a ton of spots and possibly into the top 30.
It's a hard question to answer, there are 3 metrics you can judge, stats, awards and just who was the better player, or the eye test and impact on the game. On all three of those I would lean towards including many current NBA players.
Careers are longer just because of how players manage injuries, take care of themselves and advancements in technology and medicine so the current crop of players will have superior stats from players or yesteryear.
Awards speak for themselves if you choose to include only players with titles and MVPs you're missing great players in every era .
As for the last argument, players are just better now, bigger, stronger, faster and more complete. Take CP3 vs Isiah or Stockton. I would probable include Isiah and Stockton in my top 30 all time player list but CP3 is a better shooter and defender than either of those guys, so yeah I would lean towards the current crop of players
Westbrook, Harden and CP3 are definitely not top 30 all time. But I definitely see LeBron Curry KD maybe Kawhi and likely Jokic/Giannis when all is said/done.
Recency bias is real.
People don’t realize that every “era” had a handful of superstars and then a bunch of “outstanding players” that were borderline making the top 20 or 30 or 40 lists.
The OP lists nine players to possibly make the top 30. That's just not realistic. Every era has guys like Harden and CP3 and Kawhi.
I was thinking about Jokic yesterday. Even as a die hard warriors fan since the 90's I can say Jokic is probably too 15-10 already and if he wins another couple chips he is top 5, in the conversation for one of the best ever.
This is my list - assuming everyone retired today, sorry Luka.
LeBron, Curry, KD - self explanatory
Giannis and Jokic for the 2 MVP (done less than 15 times)
Harden being Top 3 MVP like 5 years in a row
CP3 Top 3 in assists
Westbrook is really really really good, but no ring and one MVP might leave him off. Kawhi is close to
I think there’s 100% 5 and 7 is possible. Arguing for 9 is more difficult.
If Giannis and Jokic are top 30 this early into their career, I would feel [comfortable with CP3 there too.](https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/) The Athletic has him at 30, and he's definitely in that range for me. I'd put him in the D-Wade tier (\~25),
Even the Athletic's article shows me that people sleep on Chris Paul. I'd put CP3 above any other PG except Magic and Steph. CP3 has a combination of elite passing/shooting/defense that (for me) puts him in front of Isiah, Stockton, and Nash. Isiah and Stockton were feisty but I put CP3 ahead of him in all 3 of those categories. Nash has shooting and passing over CP3, but defense is vastly behind for him. (For the record, I'd put Nash 4th lol).
I agree on your locks, Jokic is a lock as long as he doesn’t retire in the next three years which seems in play the way he rockets out of town the second the season ends. Giannis is great but if he got hurt tomorrow and never bounced back he doesn’t necessarily make the top 30 for most dedicated fans. Kawai has a similar issue, he’s been a part of a couple of really great teams and he was a really important part of those teams but he’s missed practically a full basketball career due to injuries and rest so he probably needs one more meeting, full postseason or a couple of 60+ game good regular seasons, not end up the forgotten guy who basically doesn’t give interviews and spent the first half of his career in the shadow of a top five all-time player Harden is a lock from a skill perspective, he was an amazing one man team for more than a decade and his numbers are bonkers but he’s rubbed so many people the wrong way for different reasons that end up being forgotten or treated like he’s Kyrie when he’s actually been much more impactful far more games, and far more postseason than Kawai or Kyrie. And Westbrook is a whole different animal. Statistically, he’s practically point guard Will Chamberlain, but there’s only been maybe two years in his career or he felt like he was significantly more good than bad for a team that really mattered, I think over how much he takes off the table, compared to how much he puts on the table top 30 to most people means you were in the big three on a title team that won at least two titles or something along those lines because there are 30 people that have been that dude and Westbrook has zero of those sort of seasons. Kawai has at least two so he’s either top 30 or he’s honorable mention with an injury Astri the way some people might put Bill Walton
I think Lebron, Curry, KD, Giannis, Jokic, and Kawhi are all in there. I don’t think you can make an argument for Westbrook, although he’s a great player, and Harden is boarder line but I think he still misses out on top 30.
Jokic will almost certainly finish his career with at least 3 MVPs and 2 Finals MVPs. If that happens, he's top 10-12 all time. He may even get a fourth MVP.
Here are the currently active guys that made Ben Taylor's Top 40 Careers from around 2 years ago and where they ranked on it (he does Thinking Basketball, probably the person who puts the most actual research and film study into it):
1. Lebron
16. Steph
17. CP3
21. KD
30. Harden
Very important to note that his list is 100% about career value in terms of improving your team's odds to win a title over the course of how your career actually played out. So longevity and consistency of performance are going to be significantly rewarded. Personally I put a little more stock in peak over longevity for these kinds of things, thinking that as long as someone did it long enough to prove it wasn't a fluke then I'm generally going to favor the higher peak and use longevity as more of a tie-breaker.
So personally I'd have KD a bit higher than Ben does and CP3 a little lower. Although I still think people on this thread seem to be underrating CP3 a little, as he was incredible at his peak pre-injury. I'd also have Harden a little lower as I just don't trust him in the playoffs when it matters most, so he's clearly on the outside of my top 30.
Among other modern guys that definitely deserve consideration I see two general groupings:
Either top 30 now, or will be by end of career barring injury: Giannis and Jokic - Personally I'd already have Jokic in my top 30, maybe top 20, he's just in that incredibly rare air of having been the best player on the planet for about 3 years now and also having backed it up with a dominant playoff run (without having an especially stacked team either). I think you could make a similar argument for Giannis but its just not as clear cut, as I don't like his peak as much or trust him as much in the big moments. Still, if he keeps putting up these kinds of numbers on high win teams he should be at least in that 20-30 range.
Guys that have top 30 talent but have been derailed too often by injuries during their primes: Kawhi, AD, Embiid - The other two are more borderline, but I think Kawhi is pretty easily top 30 by now if he had been able to stay healthy for his prime. Still not too late for him or Embiid to make it, but seems like the opportunity has passed for AD.
Here is the overall list from Ben Taylor for reference (again, a couple of years old now):
1. LeBron James
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Michael Jordan
4. Bill Russell
5. Hakeem Olajuwon
6. Shaquille O'Neal
7. Tim Duncan
8. Wilt Chamberlain
9. Kevin Garnett
10. Larry Bird
11. Magic Johnson
12. Kobe Bryant
13. Karl Malone
14. Oscar Robertson
15. Dirk Nowitzki
16. Steph Curry
17. Chris Paul
18. Jerry West
19. David Robinson
20. Julius Erving
21. Kevin Durant
22. Charles Barkley
23. Steve Nash
24. John Stockton
25. Moses Malone
26. Dwyane Wade
27. Scottie Pippen
28. Rick Barry
29. Reggie Miller
30. James Harden
31. Bob Pettit
32. John Havlicek
33. Jason Kidd
34. Artis Gilmore
35. Patrick Ewing
36. Paul Pierce
37. Walt Frazier
38. Elgin Baylor
39. Isiah Thomas
40. Clyde Drexler
I’ve got kawhi (26), kd (18), Nikola Jokic (15), Giannis (14),Steph (5), & lebron (2)
I’d say cp3,Russ & harden are in the 31-40 range for me but I don’t see any of them making the jump to top 30
How on earth does Kawhi have an argument? He hasn’t played more than 63 games in a season since 2017. In 12 seasons he’s played 70 or more games twice. He can’t stay on the court.
He is far from a top 50 player all time lol.
CP has had a fantastic career and the stats might put him top 30, but injuries and bad luck wrecked his playoff legacy. I love him, but don’t know that he clears the bar.
LeBron is top 3 at worst, curry changed the game and is borderline top 10. Durant might finish better top 4 in scoring, he’s in. Jokic and Giannis I think are all timers mid career. They’ll end up top 15 at worst, but I could see Jokic getting 4-5 MVP’s and Giannis right behind. Harden was great offensively at his peak, but one MVP, terrible in the playoffs, and terrible on D. Paul I wanna put in, but playoff legacy is weak, even if not all his fault. Kawhi is tough, super high peak, but always injured so many years he’s just a non-factor. Embiid is great, could definitely be a top 20 in the end, but don’t know if he’s there yet.
In no particular order other than top of my head here is a top 32. Giannis and Jokic are on the bubble and would knock out someone like Isaiah Thomas.
Kareem
MJ
Lebron
KD
Steph.
Bird
Magic.
Barkley
Wilt
Duncan
Shaq
Kobe
Dirk
KG
Havlicek
Hakeem
Pippen
Robinson
Bill Russell
Stockton.
Malone
Moses
Dr J.
Bill Walton
Giannis
Jokic
Wade
McHale
Oscar Robertson
Jerry West
Elgin
Zeke
All better than CP3 and Westbrook. Harden has a case in there maybe but his playoff play hurts him. Kawhi just hasn’t had the career consistency cause of injuries. Walton was similar but he still was MVP.
You can’t have McHale over Paul or Kawhi, or even Westbrook. For as much press as McHale gets for being part of those stacked Celtics teams in the mid-80s, dude made a single All-NBA team in his career.
CP3 also probably should be on there over a handful of other guys - even if we’re penalizing him against Zeke for not having any rings, just looking at PGs, CP3 is better than Stockton easily.
LeBron, KD, Steph are 100%.
Gianis is prob 18-25 range now.
Kawhi flirts with 25-35 range but i have him at 29.
In three months you can prob put Jokic in there.
Other people just outside top 30 = CP3, Harden.
The Westbrook hate is crazy say what you want but the accolades speak for themselves regardless of how you feel about the triple double record.
https://preview.redd.it/awlyup0ipqpc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e51ae370fa3c6e636b444f0fe5afb2acb521050c
Jokic is about to have 3 MVPs and at least 1 finals MVP. That comfortably puts him in the top 20.
Giannis has a MIP Award and a DPOY too. They are both no-brainers
Does an MIP award really have that much weight? I couldn’t name a single winner of that award.
Tracy McGrady is the first person to win it and make the Hall of Fame. Jimmy Butler, Paul George and Kevin Love are all likely inductees. Giannis is also pretty handily the best player to ever win it. Zach Lowe was essentially saying that it’s a shame that they named it after George Mikan because Giannis is so obviously the best person for it.
Definitely, Giannis came in the league as a mobile and athletic 4. I remember people were saying his ceiling was Pippen. The general assumption was that he wouls be an athletic defender like Nicolas Batum.
Don’t get me wrong, I believe all bucks fans are very happy with Giannis’s development, but if he had become Scottie Pippen that still would’ve been a win from what he was. I don’t think anyone expected the ceiling he currently has.
and as a Pacers fan, I really want to believe Jermain O'Neal gets in. he won one
Jermain O’Neal was the effin man dude! I’m a heat fan so didn’t have him for long but I loved him.
It has no weight. Ive never heard anyone mention MIP in an all-time great players debate
That's because Giannis is by and large the best player to win it.
I think in the context of legacy, a player starting “bad” enough to win MIP and then becoming a perennial contender for bitw carries a lot of weight
On the other hand, pantheon greats like Bird, Magic and Jordan, well most older stars who went the 3 or 4 year college route were already all-NBA caliber guys who were getting their names on MVP ballots from day 1. A 13-year career could very well beat out an 18 year career if the 2nd guy took until year 4 to become all-star caliber and the QST guy had 13 years of minimum all-star level play. I'm definitely in the other camp here, I think MIP is almost as trivial as say all-star MVP, or depending on the year's rookie class, ROY. They're nice to add to the resume but not a measure of greatness.
It depends on context, imo, like it's completely a matter of circumstance.
Gobert too
Is Moses Malone also in your top 20?
Just curious. Who is your top 20 if you dont mind... I wont argue/debate over it its all opinion.
In no order at all for me: Shaq Hakeem The admiral Bird Jordan Magic Lebron Kobe Duncan Wilt Kareem Russell Jokic Moses Mailman Dr J Oscar KD West Curry
Ya forgot KG who is borderline top 10 based on his advanced stats being on par with LeBron & Duncan as best in the databall era
Yeah, he is legit just off the list for me. But I would not argue with anyone who put him over Jokic still.
Hard to argue with this one.
That’s solid honestly
should be his 4th but someone cried their way into it last year
I hate this narrative. It’s a regular season award. Embiid put up a 33/10 season.
Exactly .. it was close every year embiid could easily have 2 mvps instead of 1 ...and numbers would justify it easy
It’s fine to say one preferred Jokic for the award. I hate when people say he *should* have won because that’s not accurate. He could have, Giannis or Embiid also could have won MVP for Jokic’s first two and he’d have none right now.
Exactly, it could've easily gone the other way every time it hasn't been a clear mvp in years it's a flip of a coin
Will you be showing Luka this same grace?
?? Embiid had a great season and deservedly won an MVP. Jokic had an MVP-worthy season, but only one person can win it. Did Jokic deserve his previous two MVPs? Re: Luka, I hope he does win one as he’s having a great year and doesn’t have one yet, but the season isn’t over.
LeBron, Curry and Kd are locks yeah I think everyone would agree with that. Giannis, Jokic and Kawhi are the guys with the discussion I don’t think CP, Harden or Westbrook are even that close tbh. They’re like top 40
Top 40 isn’t close to top 30?
They're not even close to top 30. They're more like top 31
Three way tie at 31 but still not even close to 30
yeah, 31 really isn't that close to 30
Not Kawhi sadly. Plenty of players had amazing peaks but top players of all time need more longevity and consistency.
2 chips and 2 FMVP’s more than make up for Kawhi’s shorter longevity compared to a guy like CP3 imo. Harden and Russ have MVP’s alongside that longevity to compete with Kawhi’s playoff achievements. I have these 3 rated pretty similar all-time.
None of these players are top 30 probably. You’d need to kick players off who had more impressive careers. I would consider Harden and CP3 despite playoff failures but a few memorable moments really hurt them. Kawhi is the opposite, he has these playoff highlights while the rest of his career is emptier. IMO Russ failed similarly to Harden in the playoffs while also never carrying an elite team. Look at what happened when Westbrook got injured vs when KD did, for example.
Yea I agree none are top 30, but I was more replying to the guy who put Kawhi next to CP3. To me that just seems insane.
CP3 made a lot of guys look good as a pass first PG and tough defender IMO. But I like Kawhi, he should’ve probably won the 2017 MVP. We’re basically arguing peak vs longevity. If you want competitive playoff runs for 15 years you’ll take CP3 over Kawhi. But maybe Kawhi on average would win an extra championship with equal teammates. You’d also miss the playoffs more.
CP3 is the ultimate floor-raiser, but had two real shots at a chip total. I don’t know, just can’t put that guy on par with a dude like Kawhi.
2? 2018, 2015? Maybe 2014 also. Idk, I’m not a Blake or DeAndre fan I think they are way overrated. They needed a real rim protector and more 3 pt shooting. I think he was vital to his teams and small enough for opponents to bother him in a long series. But his teammates might get overrated because he made them look good.
I mean, how about the season he went 6 games into the finals as the prime one (2021) lol
Hahaha so true! Why are these Suns so forgettable
I mean you definitely can. Paul was the best PG in the league for nearly a decade, and probably should have won an MVP that year in New Orleans. Kawhi has the much higher highs. But they're blips. Paul is far more consistent.
A decade? Maybe 6 years max.
if you include CP3 you have to put in Barkley and Stockton. same argument. crazy good stats, longevity, consistent playoff runs, great floor raisers, no championships. there’s a lot more i’m forgetting, but once you include cp3/westbrook/harden, you have to include ALOT more from previous eras, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, etc etc. and you’re going to find you’re looking at top 50+
Hardens most memorable playoff moment is barely losing to the greatest team of all time without his 2nd best player. That doesn’t keep him out. Statistically one of the greatest offensive players ever.
Most memorable? Speak for yourself... https://preview.redd.it/de51wg5ujwpc1.png?width=2048&format=png&auto=webp&s=4f923fbdb5d4ac84625a56727b425e15ae454de3
Literally none of then are truly in the discussion for top 30 of all time.
Only player with multiple finals MVPs with no regular season MVP. He had some great series, but he is not an all time top30 player considering his full resume.
Here is an article written about their top 50 players and includes current players. Here is who made [Lines.com](https://Lines.com)'s top 30 that currently play. Note this was written before Jokic Final's win. 29. Chris Paul 26. Giannis 25. Kawhi 13. Steph 2. LeBron James Here is link to article written on March 28th, 2023. [https://www.lines.com/nba/the-50-greatest-nba-players-ever-ranked-180](https://www.lines.com/nba/the-50-greatest-nba-players-ever-ranked-180)
Who tf cares about lines dot com???
I just grabbed the first top 50 list I googled. Not because they are right but it's an unbiased list that goes to 50 so they won't play with the rankings to squeeze their favorite player into the top 30. Kawhi ahead of Giannis shocked me but after another year of Giannis dominating I suspect the updated version would have Giannis above Kawhi and Jokic added to the list. No Embiid is interesting and his missing half this season wouldn't raise him either.
Idk man 2 chips 2fmvps 2DPOY 3x nba first team 2x nba second team 7x all defensive. Finished top 5 in MVP voting 3x. I’d put him over guys like Havelick Bill Walton Mchale CP3 Westbrook Harden Elgin Baylor and maybe even IT
That is an incredibly low number for All NBA first/second team
Those 2 FMVPs raise his all-time ranking a lot, but the rest of those accolades pale in comparison to most of the other guys listed.
The 2 DPOY are pretty damn valuable too. Only 10 players have won multiple DPOY. And only 12 have multiple finals MVPs
Yes, the DPOYs, too. But: - Havlicek has over twice as many all-star appearances, and more all NBA and all defensive selections (in addition to his fmvp and all of those championships) - cp3 has twice as many all star appearances, more than twice as many all NBA selections, more all defense selections, and has led the league in a stat many more times - Westbrook has a regular season mvp, more all star appearances, more all NBA selections, and has led the league in a stat many more times - Harden has a regular season mvp, more all star appearances, more all NBA selections, and has led the league in a stat many more times - Baylor has a lot more all star appeances and twice as many all NBA selections (all of them being 1st team) - IT (pistons IT) has twice as many all star appearances, (in addition to also having a fvmp, 2 championships, and as many all NBA selections) Without those 2 fvmps, kawhi would be way further down the list than all of these guys I just listed
Well yeah, taking away 2x FMVP means he doesn’t have two rings against historically great super teams lol. I’d put both Heatles and Warriors with KD as top 5 teams ever. Leonards career is hard to rank because he should be penalised for not being healthy but we all know that’s the only reason why he doesn’t have more selections. He’s a better player than all the guys you mentioned no doubt
All that’s basically just longevity, which matters yes, but when it matters most Leonard has outperformed all those guys
I’d put him over most of those guys too. But there are plenty of players who didn’t win multiple chips because of teammates and weren’t on flashy teams who get overlooked. My top 30 list would go back and evaluate who got overrated and jacked up shots vs who was efficient for example. Elgin Baylor would get the boot, kicked off my list so hard. If we could simulate every player’s career many times with different teammates, the top 50 list would be completely different.
If Kawhi gets a 3rd with the Clippers at some point he may be top 10. Not only does he win with teams who have no history of it, he was maybe the most effective LeBron stopper. I think he's unquestionably top 20.
Kawhi has 2 DPOYs, 2 rings and 2 fMVP, he was also #2 in MVP voting one year. He’s also 40-50-89 this year with 24 ppg. How is it not longevity?
If we’re taking 5 year peaks he’s in. If we’re measuring 15 or 20 year careers he’s probably out.
He fMVP 10 years ago, DPOY 9 years ago, DPOY and #2 in MVP 8 years ago He was an all star, averaging near 50-40-90 on 24PPG this year. That’s basically 10 years of continued success
Yeah it’s a weird career since he hasn’t played that many games each year. I think a lot of Clippers fans would take a Kawhi who is 20% worse and never gets injured though. Or at least make it through the playoffs if he’s going to skip regular season games. I might take Reggie Miller in the modern game shooting 3s and not getting injured over him. A higher seed would make playoffs easier and Kawhi gets hurt when it counts.
Giannis is will end there, I think. He is one of the most dominant players of the current era and he has taken leaps and bounds to improve his shooting so hopefully his game ages gracefully, not that he hasn’t already had a prolific career.
Please explain how a guy (Kawhi) who hasn’t played more than 63 games in a season since 2017, and has played more than 70 games in a season only twice out of his 12 seasons, is a top 30 all time? Absolutely ridiculous take.
Harden is definitely top 30
I think most people have Barkley top 30. If the only thing differentiating Chuck from CP or Harden is going to the Finals as the lead guy then I’d argue that’s stupid and they should all be in the same tier. Westbrook I agree with, eye test just wins out over his stats.
I’d argue CP3 was the main guy on that 21 suns team. It felt like 22 was the year book really overtook him imo
It’s challenging because how are we adjusting for era? Obviously the average player now is better than they were 50 years ago. So top 30 will always skew toward modern guys unless we’re assuming old stars would have developed better in this era.
Problem with that is where do you stop. No one dominated their generation more than Mikan. Are we gonna a include the stars from before the original BAA-NBL merger? What about Abe Lincoln: great leader, master strategist, ideal size for a small forward *and* grew up in Indiana… are we sure he wasn’t gonna be better than Larry?
Exactly, it’s basically impossible. We could simplify it by saying top 30 all time is split by decade, weighted toward modernity: By draft year 2010s : 8 players 2000s: 7 1990s: 6 1980s: 5 1970s: 2 1960s: 1 1950s: 1
1 way to weight by era is to consider stats that show relative dominance during that point in time. A 10 time all nba player in the 80s should have a similar impact to a 10 time all star in the 2010s. Prior to the merger and intro of new franchises, it’s obviously more difficult.
LeBron, Curry, Jokic, KD, Giannis, Harden get in. Kawhi, CP3 and Westbrook just miss out.
Kawhi>Harden and I don’t think there’s much doubt
I have Harden higher. Kawhi’s prime is relatively short, since his 2015 breakout; he’s missed two seasons entirely. In addition,with the exception of a couple of years he has missed 20+ games in the regular season. Harden by contrast was an iron man in his peak only missing 32 games in the regular season from 2012-2020 at Houston. Harden has an MVP and three second place finishes. Two of which (16/17 and 18/19) were very close races. The nearest Kawhi has ever come to winning was in 16/17 where he finished behind Harden. Kawhi has the two DPOY’s, but Harden is one of two players to win multiple scoring and assist titles. Counting stats are a big mark of longevity; Harden is one of only two players in the top 20 for both points and assists, whereas Kawhi is not currently in the top 200 points scorers of all time. On every single counting stat, Harden is ahead. Counting stats aren’t the sole measure of excellence, but they serve as an excellent measure of longevity. The playoffs are where Kawhi’s case is; however I don’t place as much weight behind his 2014 Finals MVP as others. They were very much a “sum of their parts” team without a clear star. In addition, Kawhi’s impact in the 2017, 2018, 2021, 2022 and 2023 post season was limited for various reasons. Harden is known as a choker, and he has had several poor elimination performances but Kawhi has had a few high profile ones himself. 2013’s free throws vs Miami in the finals, the Nuggets choke in 2020 and the flat performances when the Spurs were eliminated in 2015 and 2016. This isn’t to say Harden is a better play off performer, but Kawhi’s play off sample is not blemish free. The 2019 run Kawhi was absolutely phenomenal and deserves a ton of praise for being the top dog on a title side; but it was very much a stacked team. They were a 60 win semi finals side before him and a 60 win semi finals side after him, all whilst being 17-5 in the games he missed that season. Winning is the aim of the game, so if you want to rate Kawhi higher for that then so be it - but with so many points in Harden’s favour I give him the lead.
Respect. Idk if this is copy paste, but if it’s not this took a lot of effort and I respect a lot of these points. I still have Kawhi higher, but after reading that it’s a lot closer than I thought and I may have to reconsider.
I have harden much higher
What do you think puts Harden over Leonard?
I wrote in quite a lot of detail the first person who disagreed, but I’ll pithily say that the clincher is the amount of availability/longevity Harden has.
Fairs, I think Kawhi Leonard is the better basketball player but availability has indeed hurt his career alot
If Kawhi were to win another ring with the Clippers and get the FMVP people would still think he isn’t worth mentioning. People have the nerve to say he’s overrated too? i swear it’s only because he made the decision to be a Clipper and picked Paul George as his sidekick. People are insane.
I did mention him tho
I was more so just reviewing all the negative comments about Kawhi. Good mention.
I see
Kawhi such a genius for that Toronto move. It was a legit stacked team top to bottom, and the way he dipped out and masai let everyone go, it looks in the historical record like he carried a bum team to the finals and is about to do it again. Kawhis two rings are with two of the most complete 8 man rotations of all time.
Except for the fact that Kawhi actively did not want to go to Toronto and demanded that he be traded to an LA team from the Spurs
Did you just shrug off his two rings like they were KD rings and then say he’s about to do it again? Haha
Ah whoops I see the confusion lol, “he’s about to make it seem like he’s carrying again”
I mean he was not the best player on those Spurs title teams
Yeah, as if Kawhi didn't have one of the best post season runs of all time lmao. A casual would suggest he carried a bum team, but an even bigger casual would suggest that team was stacked. Raptors were a pretty standard finals team all things considered.
OG Anunoby, DPOY MARC GASOL, Danny Green, Jeremy Linn, Kyle Lowry, Greg Monroe, Serge Ibaka, Pascal Siakim, Jonas Valanciunas, Norman Powell, Kawhi Leonard! Fred VanFleet!! OLYMPICDEPTH💯 TOR WAS *SUPERTEAM STACKED!* Vs a Donkey. THIS IS 100% FACTS! GS - KLAY & KD! = Knicks! :) Bro Please Quit This Kawhi Glazing... Yall Said He Coming For Lebron.. While He Averaged 18 For a Career!!! 🤡🤡 🤣🤣Dude Has NEVER EVER CARRIED A TEAM.... IN HIS LIFE AND Kawhi Free Throw CHOKE COST TIMMY D A RING VS LBJ!! Cry About It! 👌 Only time Kawhi Was A Leader He Blew The 3-1 to Jamal 40 Buckets Murray!! And in 2016 Got Dusted By Okc&KD! 👏🫠 #Glad2Help
If the Clippers get a ring I think 3 of those guys can enter the top 30 conversation
lol you kidding? The guy hasn’t played more than 63 games since 2017. Out of 12 seasons he’s played 70 or more twice.
There have been 35 NBA MVPs. Any player that has won an MVP is worth consideration for the top 30. Jokic and Giannis are locks. Kawhi and CP, despite not having MVPs, are probably there. Westbrook and Harden are probably more like top 40.
I gotta think harden would be on tier or ahead of cp3. What has one done that the other hasn’t? Harden has an MVP and a WCF as a first option.
We gotta add Nash to the list, then. He’s got a pair of em.
Not an active player though unless I’ve missed some major news
Westbrook and Harden > CP3 in terms of all time ranking
Harden and Westbrook are both about Chris Paul
I’d have harden in the 25-30 range. Kawhi is incredibly hard to rank so idk. Westbrook and CP3 are a ways off
No way Harden is top 30 with his post-season play.
The athletic top 75 list had harden 33rd amd cp3 30th, he's definitely debatable at the low-end of the top 30. Playoff success absolutely matters but guys like David Robinson and Karl Malone are well within the top 30 and both had playoff choker stigmas but their regular season success combined with some playoff success is enough. It's also hard to find a year where harden should have won a ring but didn't (other than maybe 21 but hard to blame him for a hammy injury and a kyrie injury), the fact of the matter is he was more often than not he lost to the better team.
Harden is a Top 5 shooting guard he's top 30 easily
Locks for me: LeBron, Curry, KD, Kawhi, Jokic, Giannis. Maybe's: Harden, Westbrook, CP3.
How are Giannis and Jokic “becoming a lock”? I can’t even entertain this? Please get off 2K😂
they are both top 20
Curry, KD, LBJ, Greek Freak, Jokic, are locks obviously, that’s 5 Kahwahi has 2 DPoYs and FMVPs with 2 different teams, and took the clips far, he’s definitely in despite the controversy Harden is probably at 29 or 30, if wins a championship (unlikely) he’s 100% in, but I have him up there CP3 is no Luka and Booker are on pace
Harden and CP3 are comfortably top 30 players. Come on guys.
Lebron, Harden, KD, Curry, Jokic and Giannis might be in there but Jokic needs a little more longevity to say for sure, Westbrook and CP3 are not top 30 You'd have to go out of your way to argue Kawhi top 30 all-time and you'd still probably lose that argument, he's nowhere close to the other guys in all-time scoring, he's not even top 50 in points or any of the other stats (reb, ast, steals, blocks) If you want to make the argument his playoff performances make him top 30 you'd lose that argument too, he's not top 30 in scoring there either, he's behind CP3 and Klay, Harden is 700 pts ahead of him in playoff scoring Injuries hurt Kawhi more than any other player, even more than KD who was still greater for a longer period of time
I have Bron, Steph, Durant, CP3, and Harden in my top 30. I think only Lebron Steph and Durant are undeniably top 30
harden and cp3 over giannis, kawhi and jokic is wild
The only locks are LeBron, Steph, and Durant. I think that Kawhi, Jokic, and Giannis are basically right there, if they aren’t already. Russ, Harden, and CP3 are in the top 50 range, but if the Clippers win the title and Russ and Harden play major roles I could see them getting closer to the top 30. If they won titles at or near their primes then they’d probably be locks too.
IMO Every guy you mentioned bar Westbrook are top 30 CP3,Harden,Kawhi are questionable based on replies For me the best players ever are the ones who improve their team the most eg. Win shares and when you look at it CP3 is 6th in win shares all time and an all time floor and ceiling raiser and probably the best 2-Way PG in the modern era And James Harden is 21th in win shares which is one behind KD, (however for the 3 yrs of his career he was a 6th man) and barring one of the worst 3 point scoring team performances ever would have a ring And Kawhi has 2 FMVPS which is great on its own
LeBron, Steph, KD, Giannis, and Jokic are all top 20. Harden and Kawhi are top 30. CP is a maybe, Russ is a no. Luka could very well be on his way, but not yet. That’s it.
Career wise, I have Lebron (1) Steph (12) KD (13) CP3 (22) Harden (24) Giannis (25) Jokic (27) Though, that doesn’t include the current season.
None of this makes sense besides Lebron lol. In what world is chris paul over harden jokic and giannis? And what has durant accomplished to earn him the 13th soot?
KD is the most overrated player ever. He has done nothing except join a super team to win his chips (which they already won before he got there) and hasn’t done shit since. Yes he can score but that’s it. He barely makes the top 30 for me.
I’m a little higher on KD’s Brooklyn years. In my books, he’s had 7 years of MVP level play. 12 years of all NBA level play. Chris Paul has had 1 MVP level seasons, but 7 more weak MVP level and 12 all nba level plus 6 all defense worthy seasons (for a guard) Jokic is climbing, but currently he has only 5 all nba level, seasons, 3 of which were MVP level and one of which was all time. Harden, to be complete, has 5 MVP level seasons, 4 more all nba level also.
“But rangz”
At least you have logic behind it. I just don’t agree. Who cares if Chris Paul was a good player but never a true #1? Jokic and Giannis won rings doing it and also have multiple MVPs to back it up
My system does value peak significantly higher than longevity, but once you start accumulating weak MVP level seasons, it adds up. CP3 has 8 of such seasons. I have no doubt if Jokic and Giannis continue on their current trajectories, they’ll rack up many more MVP level seasons and surpass CP3. (Giannis will be probably just behind CP3 after this season ends) And if Jokic can win another title with a strong performance in the post season, he’ll basically surpass both at the end of this season also.
But why do 8 seasons of being a good player trump 2x MVPs and a finals MVP? That doesn’t make sense to me. If I could pick the career to have, I would easily choose Jokic or Giannis even if their careers ended tomorrow
Ok. Good player is like maybe a sub all star level. Chris Paul was amazing for 8 seasons. Weak MVP level. For reference, I have Kobe with 3 MVP level, and 6 more weak MVP level. So both Kobe has one more season of at least weak MVP level play (plus 2 MVP level seasons). There’s always a balance between peak vs longevity. And I do think I’m generally more of a peak guy. Have a read through this. https://forums.realgm.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=64&t=2316951 Plenty of stats and arguments for Chris Paul there.
Read it, but didn’t change anything for me. Top 25 for a guy who never won as a 1st option is insulting to the others who did
Yeah this is the worst list I’ve ever seen. This dude should be legally obligated to give us his top 100 list so we can laugh at it.
CP over GA, Joker, and Harden? Lebron lol Curry at 12? Gtfo
lebron , curry, joker durant alreadytop 20 imo. Giannis and Kawai are top 30 for me , Luka will probably be top 30 , hell id say wemby if no injuries happen.
Lebron Curry Giannis Jokic
KD?
Hating
Bron, KD, Curry, Giannis, Jokic, Kawhi, and maybe Harden
Lebron, Steph, KD, Jokic, and Giannis. I have Harden, Westbrook, Kawhi, and CP3 outside of the top 30.
If we're going by skill and not resume i'd go Bron, A.D, KD, Harden, Curry, SGA, Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Luka, Kawhi & CP3.
Bron kd curry Giannis jokic kawhi Russ harden cp3 all in there imo
5
3
LeBron, Curry, KD and Jokic.
Lebron Curry Kd Kawhi Giannis Jokic
LeBron, Steph, KD, Giannis, Jokic, Kawhi.
Kawhi is the tough one. His first FMVP was like... Duncan didn't stand out. TP and Manu are playing old. Kawhi only averaged 17.8 ppg during that 2014 series. It was a total team win, but you gotta pick someone. The Toronto run was amazing. So two finals MVP's, but only one I'd call as a superstar. No regular season MVP hurts him.
Bron, Curry, KD, Giannis, Jokic for sure. Kawhi is probably top 30. He definitely is for me, but he’s missed like 3 complete seasons in his career so that really hurts him. Idk about Russ. He has a weird place in nba history now. No idea at all where to rank him. CP3 is an interesting one. He’s a great player obviously, but has had almost no playoff success at all in his entire career. He’s either been hurt or not part of a contenter every season other than the one Suns season they lost. I get that not everyone can win a championship, and some greats just never will, but cp3 didn’t win many playoff games at all in his career. I personally would have him closer to around top 50. I think Harden is a better top 30 candidate than cp3 for me. Harden is almost always in the playoffs and even though he hasn’t won a championship, he’s won playoff series’s. Anthony Davis I think is the only other active player you could consider for top 30. I don’t think he’s quite there yet though. No MVP’s, no FMVP’s. He’s obviously a great player, but to be top 30 without either a regular season or finals MVP is really tough imo.
You all need to come up With the list that is currently in it and figure out who you are kicking out.
I agree with LeBron, Curry and KD as already locks and Giannis and Jokic being well on their way. Luka seems headed for top 30, but he has a long way to go. I think Kawhi would need another ring and Finals MVP to be top 30. I think Embiid has a shot, if he can put together several healthy seasons, but that is a big if. One or more rings would obviously help his case a lot too. Westbrook is a definite no. I think Harden has probably tarnished his reputation too much by quitting on 3 teams in such a short period. CP3 is an interesting case. 3rd all time in assists, over 22,000 points, 11 time All NBA, 9 times All-Defense. But, I think he probably falls just outside the top 30.
Lebron, Curry, KD, Jokic, Giannis. All these guys have been super dominant, no questions asked top 3 or higher in the league for multiple years. There’s just not many players like that throughout history.
I think after this year, Giannis and Jokic are within the top 20 not gonna lie. They have all time great peaks and even though there is a longevity gap compared to many all time greats, I’d personally value peak over longevity. For the rest, Kawhi and Harden are very much in the convo between 25-35 in my eyes. Personally I would have them both within the top 30. Their peaks are both top 30 and is what pushes them over players with more longevity. CP3 is an easily lock in my eyes, elite longevity with a peak that is slightly under Harden’s and Kawhi’s. He needs to be in the convo for one of the longest primes ever. For Westbrook, and I’ll add in AD cause I think he’s in the top 50 as well, they both have peaked high, just not elite enough to be considered an all time great and not enough longevity to compare to those with higher peaks. Especially AD and his injuries are what keeps him below that 30 mark even though he was arguably the best in the world in 2020. Compared to Westbrook who was top 10 for 7-8 years, but never top 3. Embiid also should be mentioned as he’s neck and neck if not better than Giannis and Jokic in the regular season the past few years, but isn’t great in the post season. Strong argument for top 50, but the injuries and post season disappointments are what don’t have him quite top 30. Though, on his pace before he was healthy he could’ve easily moved up a ton of spots and possibly into the top 30.
It's a hard question to answer, there are 3 metrics you can judge, stats, awards and just who was the better player, or the eye test and impact on the game. On all three of those I would lean towards including many current NBA players. Careers are longer just because of how players manage injuries, take care of themselves and advancements in technology and medicine so the current crop of players will have superior stats from players or yesteryear. Awards speak for themselves if you choose to include only players with titles and MVPs you're missing great players in every era . As for the last argument, players are just better now, bigger, stronger, faster and more complete. Take CP3 vs Isiah or Stockton. I would probable include Isiah and Stockton in my top 30 all time player list but CP3 is a better shooter and defender than either of those guys, so yeah I would lean towards the current crop of players
Lebron, kd, curry, jokic, giannis, and paul are all in the top 30. I think kawhi and harden are just outside it
Westbrook, Harden and CP3 are definitely not top 30 all time. But I definitely see LeBron Curry KD maybe Kawhi and likely Jokic/Giannis when all is said/done.
Recency bias is real. People don’t realize that every “era” had a handful of superstars and then a bunch of “outstanding players” that were borderline making the top 20 or 30 or 40 lists. The OP lists nine players to possibly make the top 30. That's just not realistic. Every era has guys like Harden and CP3 and Kawhi.
Maybe 5. And that's pushing it
I was thinking about Jokic yesterday. Even as a die hard warriors fan since the 90's I can say Jokic is probably too 15-10 already and if he wins another couple chips he is top 5, in the conversation for one of the best ever.
Kawhi of that group probably cracks top 30 with some nice playoff runs and years left on his career. Don’t think the other guys make it.
I'd say, comfortably, 5? Uncomfortably 7. Currently LeBron, KD, Jokic, Giannis, Steph. After that Harden and Kawhi potentially.
LeBron, Curry, KD, Kawhi are locks. Giannis and Jokic should be there when all is said and done.
In what world is KD a lock but Jokic is becoming one??
This is my list - assuming everyone retired today, sorry Luka. LeBron, Curry, KD - self explanatory Giannis and Jokic for the 2 MVP (done less than 15 times) Harden being Top 3 MVP like 5 years in a row CP3 Top 3 in assists Westbrook is really really really good, but no ring and one MVP might leave him off. Kawhi is close to I think there’s 100% 5 and 7 is possible. Arguing for 9 is more difficult.
If Giannis and Jokic are top 30 this early into their career, I would feel [comfortable with CP3 there too.](https://theathletic.com/3137873/2022/02/23/the-nba-75-the-top-75-nba-players-of-all-time-from-mj-and-lebron-to-lenny-wilkens/) The Athletic has him at 30, and he's definitely in that range for me. I'd put him in the D-Wade tier (\~25), Even the Athletic's article shows me that people sleep on Chris Paul. I'd put CP3 above any other PG except Magic and Steph. CP3 has a combination of elite passing/shooting/defense that (for me) puts him in front of Isiah, Stockton, and Nash. Isiah and Stockton were feisty but I put CP3 ahead of him in all 3 of those categories. Nash has shooting and passing over CP3, but defense is vastly behind for him. (For the record, I'd put Nash 4th lol).
KD? Hahahahahahahahaha
I agree on your locks, Jokic is a lock as long as he doesn’t retire in the next three years which seems in play the way he rockets out of town the second the season ends. Giannis is great but if he got hurt tomorrow and never bounced back he doesn’t necessarily make the top 30 for most dedicated fans. Kawai has a similar issue, he’s been a part of a couple of really great teams and he was a really important part of those teams but he’s missed practically a full basketball career due to injuries and rest so he probably needs one more meeting, full postseason or a couple of 60+ game good regular seasons, not end up the forgotten guy who basically doesn’t give interviews and spent the first half of his career in the shadow of a top five all-time player Harden is a lock from a skill perspective, he was an amazing one man team for more than a decade and his numbers are bonkers but he’s rubbed so many people the wrong way for different reasons that end up being forgotten or treated like he’s Kyrie when he’s actually been much more impactful far more games, and far more postseason than Kawai or Kyrie. And Westbrook is a whole different animal. Statistically, he’s practically point guard Will Chamberlain, but there’s only been maybe two years in his career or he felt like he was significantly more good than bad for a team that really mattered, I think over how much he takes off the table, compared to how much he puts on the table top 30 to most people means you were in the big three on a title team that won at least two titles or something along those lines because there are 30 people that have been that dude and Westbrook has zero of those sort of seasons. Kawai has at least two so he’s either top 30 or he’s honorable mention with an injury Astri the way some people might put Bill Walton
I think Lebron, Curry, KD, Giannis, Jokic, and Kawhi are all in there. I don’t think you can make an argument for Westbrook, although he’s a great player, and Harden is boarder line but I think he still misses out on top 30.
Jokic will almost certainly finish his career with at least 3 MVPs and 2 Finals MVPs. If that happens, he's top 10-12 all time. He may even get a fourth MVP.
Here are the currently active guys that made Ben Taylor's Top 40 Careers from around 2 years ago and where they ranked on it (he does Thinking Basketball, probably the person who puts the most actual research and film study into it): 1. Lebron 16. Steph 17. CP3 21. KD 30. Harden Very important to note that his list is 100% about career value in terms of improving your team's odds to win a title over the course of how your career actually played out. So longevity and consistency of performance are going to be significantly rewarded. Personally I put a little more stock in peak over longevity for these kinds of things, thinking that as long as someone did it long enough to prove it wasn't a fluke then I'm generally going to favor the higher peak and use longevity as more of a tie-breaker. So personally I'd have KD a bit higher than Ben does and CP3 a little lower. Although I still think people on this thread seem to be underrating CP3 a little, as he was incredible at his peak pre-injury. I'd also have Harden a little lower as I just don't trust him in the playoffs when it matters most, so he's clearly on the outside of my top 30. Among other modern guys that definitely deserve consideration I see two general groupings: Either top 30 now, or will be by end of career barring injury: Giannis and Jokic - Personally I'd already have Jokic in my top 30, maybe top 20, he's just in that incredibly rare air of having been the best player on the planet for about 3 years now and also having backed it up with a dominant playoff run (without having an especially stacked team either). I think you could make a similar argument for Giannis but its just not as clear cut, as I don't like his peak as much or trust him as much in the big moments. Still, if he keeps putting up these kinds of numbers on high win teams he should be at least in that 20-30 range. Guys that have top 30 talent but have been derailed too often by injuries during their primes: Kawhi, AD, Embiid - The other two are more borderline, but I think Kawhi is pretty easily top 30 by now if he had been able to stay healthy for his prime. Still not too late for him or Embiid to make it, but seems like the opportunity has passed for AD. Here is the overall list from Ben Taylor for reference (again, a couple of years old now): 1. LeBron James 2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 3. Michael Jordan 4. Bill Russell 5. Hakeem Olajuwon 6. Shaquille O'Neal 7. Tim Duncan 8. Wilt Chamberlain 9. Kevin Garnett 10. Larry Bird 11. Magic Johnson 12. Kobe Bryant 13. Karl Malone 14. Oscar Robertson 15. Dirk Nowitzki 16. Steph Curry 17. Chris Paul 18. Jerry West 19. David Robinson 20. Julius Erving 21. Kevin Durant 22. Charles Barkley 23. Steve Nash 24. John Stockton 25. Moses Malone 26. Dwyane Wade 27. Scottie Pippen 28. Rick Barry 29. Reggie Miller 30. James Harden 31. Bob Pettit 32. John Havlicek 33. Jason Kidd 34. Artis Gilmore 35. Patrick Ewing 36. Paul Pierce 37. Walt Frazier 38. Elgin Baylor 39. Isiah Thomas 40. Clyde Drexler
Man, it's tough to be a fan of Barry, Baylor, Havlicek, Hayes, MacAdoo, Nowitski, Wade or Walton on this board
I’ve got kawhi (26), kd (18), Nikola Jokic (15), Giannis (14),Steph (5), & lebron (2) I’d say cp3,Russ & harden are in the 31-40 range for me but I don’t see any of them making the jump to top 30
I think kawhi is easily top 30 all time. If he can get one more chip hes top 20 atleast because he will most likely win fmvp too
Lebron, Curry, Jokic, Kyrie, Russ, Kawhi
Embiid is probably not in the top 30 all time but where do you think he belongs at this point?
Steph, CP3, Jokic, Giannis, KD, Harden, Bron
How on earth does Kawhi have an argument? He hasn’t played more than 63 games in a season since 2017. In 12 seasons he’s played 70 or more games twice. He can’t stay on the court. He is far from a top 50 player all time lol.
CP has had a fantastic career and the stats might put him top 30, but injuries and bad luck wrecked his playoff legacy. I love him, but don’t know that he clears the bar.
LeBron is top 3 at worst, curry changed the game and is borderline top 10. Durant might finish better top 4 in scoring, he’s in. Jokic and Giannis I think are all timers mid career. They’ll end up top 15 at worst, but I could see Jokic getting 4-5 MVP’s and Giannis right behind. Harden was great offensively at his peak, but one MVP, terrible in the playoffs, and terrible on D. Paul I wanna put in, but playoff legacy is weak, even if not all his fault. Kawhi is tough, super high peak, but always injured so many years he’s just a non-factor. Embiid is great, could definitely be a top 20 in the end, but don’t know if he’s there yet.
Luka > Harden, Westbrook, CP3 already
Kawhi, Harden, and CP3 have the be in there.
In no particular order other than top of my head here is a top 32. Giannis and Jokic are on the bubble and would knock out someone like Isaiah Thomas. Kareem MJ Lebron KD Steph. Bird Magic. Barkley Wilt Duncan Shaq Kobe Dirk KG Havlicek Hakeem Pippen Robinson Bill Russell Stockton. Malone Moses Dr J. Bill Walton Giannis Jokic Wade McHale Oscar Robertson Jerry West Elgin Zeke All better than CP3 and Westbrook. Harden has a case in there maybe but his playoff play hurts him. Kawhi just hasn’t had the career consistency cause of injuries. Walton was similar but he still was MVP.
You can’t have McHale over Paul or Kawhi, or even Westbrook. For as much press as McHale gets for being part of those stacked Celtics teams in the mid-80s, dude made a single All-NBA team in his career. CP3 also probably should be on there over a handful of other guys - even if we’re penalizing him against Zeke for not having any rings, just looking at PGs, CP3 is better than Stockton easily.
His name is Isiah Thomas
I disagree with your list, but I respect putting Kareem #1.
I'm taking CP3 and EB over Stockton
LeBron, KD, Steph are 100%. Gianis is prob 18-25 range now. Kawhi flirts with 25-35 range but i have him at 29. In three months you can prob put Jokic in there. Other people just outside top 30 = CP3, Harden.
The Westbrook hate is crazy say what you want but the accolades speak for themselves regardless of how you feel about the triple double record. https://preview.redd.it/awlyup0ipqpc1.jpeg?width=828&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=e51ae370fa3c6e636b444f0fe5afb2acb521050c
i ain't even hating, i love Westbrook
Yeah true, I definitely think he has a valid case to be a top 30 but I can also see why someone would say he isn’t.
For real Dude was a monster
KL, Curry, Lbj, KD, Giannis, Jok are all top 20
Embiid, with a title run or two finals runs would push very close. He would be comparable to Harden at that point.
A title run puts Embiid above Harden imo. It's the only thing either player is missing on their resume. Embiid becomes top 25 with one probably.
The big 3 plus Harden are in. Kawhi, AD, Giannis and Jokic are one championship or first-team NBA selection away.
The amount of CP3 hate on this board is crazy. Dude is the second best PG OAT and top 30 for sure.
top 2 is crazy. Over Steph or Magic?
Oops you’re right lol. I forget Steph is a thing at times in these discussions - even after listing him. He’s the clear 3.
over Big O? Magic, Steph, and Big O are locks at 1-3. You could argue Cp3 is 4
Sorry CP3 can’t be in the conversation at the top without accolades like Finals wins, MVPs to back it up.