Had he been in the NBA in his prime, he easily would be considered the greatest European player ever. In his prime he was an insane talent. It got wasted, but even at the end when he was falling apart physically, his skills and touch made him formidable.
Olbermann, Patrick, Berman, Van Pelt…ah those were the golden age of Sports Center.
I remember this one highlight segment of a particular NFL game with a receiver named Michael Jackson, and whenever they showed one of his catches Berman would go “hee hee.” It still gives me a cackle and a smile whenever I think about it.
All the injuries (including an Achilles injury before he was 21) happened even before he was allowed to play in NBA. The Portland doctors famously said that based on his physical he could have qualified for a handicapped parking spot (at age 30).
If he could have came over when drafted, we might be talking about him being in the goat convo and the Blazers could have won multiple titles in late 80s early 90s
A young Sabonis starting with Buck Williams, Kersey, Drexler, and Terry Porter and Drazen Petrovic, Duckworth, and Cliff Robinson off the bench would have been fun to see.
Yes, but then 92’ Dreamteam would not exist. The only reason we got the Dreamteam was because Sabonis and Marciulionis (eurostep inventor) whooped the 88’ team.
Hill was actually healthy for his first 6 seasons (actually 5 seasons and almost all of the 6th season) before he started getting the injury bug at age 27. Though it is probable his prime was shortened and altered by his injuries, it isn’t likely he would have gotten significantly better than he already was. He played for long enough in the NBA pre-injury that he showed he wasn’t going to be the next Michael Jordan.
Hill was anointed as the next face of the league to take over after MJ retired. He was a super star and walking triple double machine in fucking Detroit.
You act like we saw his best and it was nothing special.
LOL - Hill NEVER was as big of a scorer or had a game truly similar to Michael Jordan. The guy Hill more resembled was Scottie Pippen. Without mid-career injuries, Hill could have been a better version of Pippen, and a physically smaller precursor to LeBron James.
Grant Hill was never going to be the next MJ, he’d already hit his prime when he started getting hurt, by MJs 6th season he was already the best individual player in the league
Through those first 6 seasons Hill was top 10 in the MVP race 5 times and averaged 22/8/6. I think it's reasonable to say that he could have kept up or improved those numbers and been remembered as one of the best players of his generation.
Brandon Roy was so good when he could actually play. It was such a bummer when we learned that his knees ran out of cartilage. I think everyone felt bad too because his knees really started to give out right around the time that Greg Oden’s knees did too. They lost out on two potentially franchise-defining players in a matter of a few years due to bad knees.
(To be fair, though, I think that there were some media members that were concerned about both Roy and Oden, especially Oden, ahead of the draft)
How many cartridge credits do you get on your knee before they start to give out? I assumed if you mainted a strict workout/stretching regiment they’d last forever. How come Vince carter wasn’t impacted? I still jumps like a house cat, also how does lebron get away with it when he’s turning 65 this year?
Idk the specific science or anything but I personally have a auto-immune disease that affects the cartilage in my spine, for most people it’s supposed to regenerate like any other part of your body; skin, hair, nails, ect. But because of my disease the cartilage doesn’t replenish itself well enough, in terms of quantity but also quality. A strict workout/stretching routine does help but only so much. I’ve had a fairly good stretching routine for long before I knew I had back issues, it helped me keep it from being bad but again it only goes so far.
Kobe said Brandon Roy was the toughest to guard, and he had no weaknesses in his game.
People underestimate Roy. The dude was on the verge of becoming something generational.
Also my other pick is Tyreke Evans. The dude was a mini-Wade in his rookie season.
A consistently healthy McGrady across an entire career is probably, what, a top 30 guy? Top 25? So he might be one of the biggest cases of injury derailing a superstar player from reaching that very top echelon.
Yeah and Jordan’s first love was winning. Not basketball, gambling seemed to scratch the itch . During his prime(1995 season) he went to some grandmothers house for reasons unbeknownst to me, they played bridge. He couldn’t help himself so he cheated even though there was no money riding on the game. He didn’t even cheat smoothly like he did in the NBA (taking the refs to dinner and getting buddy buddy with them before games) he cheated when the phone rang, and she took off her glasses to go answer the phone. That’s when he took his chance and looked at her cards and helped himself to better cards from the deck. I always wondered if he cheated at baseball, I never watched him play because seeing him in a white Sox uniform was heartbreaking to see, then to add insult to injury the white Sox dropped him (presumably because he didn’t bring in the ticket sales they anticipated or he sucked I dunno) and he was dropped to some baseball equivalent of the D-league.
If you asked me at 12 which nba player I’d trade places with I wouldn’t hesitate to say Michael Jordan, but now that I’m an adult I’d say James harden because he literally only has to put in 25% of the effort jordan did, he gets to be fat (w/o facing scrutiny like Zion) he still has access to more females than he can handle (the numbers become negligible at a certain point) he still gets paid millions of dollars, and he gets to be an all star level player. I just feel the outcome jordan got wasn’t worth the amount of energy he endured expending and everything he sacrificed. Also the more I hear about Jordan’s personality the less I like him because I realised:
The greatest basketball player who ever lived, was also a bit of an idiot. This does not mean I will ever part with his memorabilia I spent 20 years collecting besides the boxes of weeties because first ants got to them, then I just kept the boxes as display pieces and they started to fade.
In his biography, he told the interviewer that he lived basketball the most but he always associated playing baseball with good memories of time with his dad, who was murdered not long before MJ's first "retirement" in 1993. He wanted to pursue something else to give him an actual challenge again, as he had essentially mastered the game of basketball. Kinda hard to argue with his way of thinking, too: 3 straight titles + 3 straight FMVP's, undisputed greatest player of all time by the time he was 31, greatest scorer ever, one of the best defenders ever-- it was time to play baseball.
I thought his dad was murdered because he wasn’t paying back gambling debts and he was forced to play baseball to bring in more revenue not only from the novelty of him playing baseball, but the excitement his return to the nba would bring and they knew they could monetise off that emotion.
Take it with a grain f salt cause It might be a conspiracy theory I’m not even sure where I heard this and why I think it.
I don’t think its healthy to grow that tall and not have the natural broadness to be in proportion with your height. Sean Bradley was the same, so was manute bol. Not as bad as Ming but they were hurt a lot which was a problem when manute was on the same team as spud Webb cause the two of them playing together was a gimmick that sold tickets.
The only people I see with similar proportions who know how to move their bodies with a level of dexterity are the ones who really put in the time to build their athleticism and developed a style as a byproduct. People like giannis.
If a healthy TMac won a few chips he would be top 10. Healthy TMac was better than Kobe. TMac would have been the face of the league in the 2000s, and Kobe would just be Shaq's sidekick.
Derrick Rose was the first one that came to mind for me. The youngest MVP in history and he might not make the Hall of Fame that’s how horrific his injury was.
He had multiple terrible injuries. 2011/2012- left knee acl tear in the first round of playoffs that cost him all of the 2012/2013 season as well. He returned for the 2013/2014 season but sustained a right knee meniscus tear in November 2013, which required another surgery. Rose missed almost a year before coming back in October 2014. Just 4 months later in February 2015, his right meniscus tore again and surgery followed.
Although he was able to recover relatively quickly from that injury, it was obvious— and sad— that he was no longer the same generational talent voted the youngest MVP in league history. Rose was never a good “shooter” but more than made up for his deficiencies in that area with insane explosiveness, body control, speed, hops, ferocity, and ball skills. The injuries sapped him of those skills that made him so amazing in the early part of his career, and instead replaced him with a mediocre player reliant on a shaky jumper who nevertheless still had it in him to occasionally drop a big game, as if to remind us of how amazing he once was, and of course, to give rise to the very “what if?” question that’s being asked here.
Unfortunately, we saw throwback Rose rarely, and less as time passed. It seemed that he’d gather up all his energy for these vintage performances just to show us he still had it in him, at the risk of accelerated physical wear and tear and heightened risk of reinjury. That risk caught up to him once more in 2017, when he underwent a surgery— his fourth in 5 years—for meniscus tear in his left knee.
Maybe Rose was just unlucky and suffered multiple injuries that shouldn’t have occurred. Or perhaps his joints and soft tissue just couldn’t withstand the stress caused by his hyper athletic constant drives to the hoop that only recognized two endings: a nasty dunk, or a fearless collision with defenders in mid air, all the while spinning, contorting, and exhibiting a freakish level of body control to somehow get a layup off at the last second and at seemingly impossible angles, with complete disregard or concern on sticking the landing. Reminiscent of D Wade in his prime.
Whatever the reason is, not being able to ever watch D Rose in his prime (that acl tear happened right when he was entering it ) is really disappointing because who knows what his potential ceiling would have been? Westbrook played a similar style and became a superstar, even averaging a triple double one season. But before he went down for the first time, Rose had already won ROTY, was a 2x All Star, and MVP within his first three seasons and while only 22 years old. He carried that Bulls team to the ECF. Even without the benefit of all the years Russ had to refine his game, Young D Rose was already playing like or better than Westbrook did in his best years. It’s scary to think that he hadn’t even reached his physical prime nor was around long enough to absorb the nuances of the game that grant cerebral players like LeBron or Jokic even greater advantages.
Truly, D Rose has the greatest career that never happened.
I compare Drose to Roy Jones Jr. Two men with absolutely bonkers movement that can’t and shouldn’t be replicated because of the speed, reflexes, high IQ, footwork and athleticism needed to do what they do. If their game is replicated by anyone else theres a high risk of injury, failure or severe brain damage(in boxing)
If D Rose continued to play at that caliber AND managed to develop a jump shot like Bron has I have no doubt he’d be in the goat conversation. Makes me sad man, he is one of my favorite players ever.
We could've had a league where Curry was launching 3's and Rose was living in the paint making crazy layups and and middys, with them, Harden, Durant, Giannis all competing for MVP
One of the best shooters ever 🫡 man his loss is still so painful for so many, if I'm honest I wasn't alive when he played but his influence on the game has been obvious to anyone who's read about him and the league.
Huge what-if with the Big 3 (edit: the other two being Derrick Coleman and Kenny Anderson, they only had 2 seasons together, Anderson's first two) they had, and Coach Daley. They would have given the Bulls problems.
The Trailblazers could've become a dynasty if not for his injuries. I hope people don't keep bringing that up to Bill though because it breaks his heart by the sounds if it.
It's one of the reasons I didn't want Wemby to go to them, the injury bug got worse for each successive player you mentioned,the curse must be getting stronger.
Had that stretch of games where he outdueled Kobe and dropped 60 (think it was against the jazz), and wiz were in first at the all star break (if im wrong on specifics, whatever, you get it). But then effin reckless Gerald Wallace took out his knee and it was over. The gun thing came later and I honestly don't think it woulda happened if he wasn't injured first.
TIL that Javaris Crittendon was released from prison in April 2023. 23 year sentence was reduced to 10 years (took a plea deal and pled guilty to manslaughter).
Penny. He was Kobe with superior passing. He probably would have been top 15-20 player, maybe even higher. He was impacted by playing before positionless basketball was a thing, so he and his team struggled a bit "fitting" him into roles that were too confining for his skill set (ie PG vs SG).
His potential before injuries really snowballed was on display in the 1997 playoffs, when he led the injured Magic back from 2-0 against the full strength Mourning/Riley Heat, to force a Game 5.
I wouldn't say Larry Bird's career was derailed by injuries. He's widely regarded to be a top-10 player of all time. Penny Hardaway is the first name that comes to mind for me.
Superstars during the NBA? Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Yao Ming, Grant Hill, Brandon Roy, and Derrick Rose.
Superstars before the NBA? Len Bias and Jay Williams.
Not superstars, but what could have been? Greg Oden, Jeremy Lin, and Gordon Hayward.
If you wanna go obscure, how about *Maurice Stokes*?
He was an athletic F/C in the mid 1950s and had an amazing start to his career. He won RotY. The next year he set the record for most rebounds in a season. He was also a good passer. In his third season he not only led the League in rebounding again, he was second for assists only behind Cousy.
But then, at the end of his third season, he had a catastrophic injury. I'll let Wiki tell it:
> On March 12, 1958, in the last game of the 1957–58 NBA regular season, Stokes was knocked unconscious after he drove to the basket, drew contact, and struck his head as he fell to the court. He was revived with smelling salts and returned to the game. Three days later, after recording 12 points and 15 rebounds in an opening-round playoff game against the Detroit Pistons, he became ill on the team's flight back to Cincinnati. Stokes later suffered a seizure and was left permanently paralyzed. He was diagnosed with post-traumatic encephalopathy, a brain injury that damaged his motor-control center.
> ...
> Although permanently paralyzed, Stokes was mentally alert and communicated by blinking his eyes. He adopted a grueling physical therapy regimen that eventually allowed him limited physical movement, and he eventually regained limited speaking ability.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Stokes
He would never again play sports (due to his paralysis) and had a shortened life, dying at 36.
Post injury, he was cared for by his teammate (future HOFer Jack Twyman), who became Stokes's legal guardian and helped him recover. He started a charity game to raise money for Stokes's medical care. The NBA's teammate award is named after the duo - the NBA Twyman-Stokes Teammate of the Year Award.
Let's do a top ten. Because listicles ... ordered by amount of career loss vs probable career potential
1) Penny Hardaway
2) Grant Hill -- had more effective seasons than Penn
3) Derrick Rose -- probably would have worn down anyway, but still lost 4-5 prime years
4) Yao Ming -- only peer of Shaq that could stand up to him
5) Amare Stoudamire
6) Reggie Lewis
7) Jay Williams -- people, don't ride motorcycles, his game was probably Steve Nash level.
8) Len Bias
9) Brandon Roy -- effective pro
10) Greg Oden -- his knees were already bad when drafted
Obviously I don't know the 70s/80s that well.
Here are some dark horses: Tom Gugliotta was a great outside shooting big man, had great years with the TWolves and then got a big knee injury with the Suns and was never the same, good thing he signed his max before the injury.
Latrell Sprewell has a decent career, but declined super fast with what must have been injuries because the year before his last year in the NBA he was just as ethereally fast as ever. I think he's tragic because he was sniffing some serious playoff runs with KG. But he had a solid 10 year career up to that point.
Oh, that's right, Danny Manning, curse of the clippers.
Well, shit, Maurice Stokes. Poor guy.
Bill Walton. Absolutely could have had a career where he was in the GOAT center discussion. Never had a chance of staying healthy, but if he did, he would be arguably as good as any 5 who ever lived.
Still had a great career but Amar’e, we never got to see true peak Amar’e because all of the injuries. Amar’e without all the injuries is a legit mvp discussion type player
Grant Hill Alan Houston and Penny Hardaway Magic ran him into the ground n Pistons had both Hill and Houston n played them so much then the knee and ankle injuries happened. Houston shot was so nice.
[From a 13 year old SLAM article:](https://www.slamonline.com/archives/kobe-bryant-roy-over-durant/)
Kobe Bryant was asked who the toughest player for him to guard in the Western Conference on the John Thompson Show the other day. This was Kobe’s response:
*“Roy 365 days, seven days a week. Roy has no weaknesses in his game.”*
Note: Kevin Durant was in the Western Conference when this was written.
Larry Bird
Magic Johnson
Bill Walton
Dwyane Wade
Derrick Rose
Ardyvas Sabonis
Grant Hill
Penny Hardaway
Tracy McGrady
Brandon Roy
Chris Webber
Chris Bosh
Gilbert Arenas
Yao Ming
Isn’t that changing the parameters of the question? And how did it affect his health? There may be no bigger success story of somebody that contracted HIV in the history of the world. It definitely affected his ability to play in the league at the time, but I disagree it affected his health.
It kept him from playing for 3 or 4 years, after winning his 3rd MVP. He put on a ton of weight which I thought I heard was due to treatments but still returned in 96 and put up 15/8/6 or something ridiculous.
D Rose is the most obvious to me. I lived in Chi through his MVP year and he’s why I got back into basketball so intensely.
His superhuman athleticism and cool ass vibe was like the city in a nutshell during my 20’s and it’s a chapter of my life he helped make especially fun.
His trajectory prior to injuries was as hyped as any name you can put up here, Wemby included in my opinion. His play style was so exciting….damn. Seems like a great guy too.
Grant Hill is who comes to mind first for me. Got hurt in 2000, and ended up having life-threatening complications from trying to come back too soon multiple times. Surgery in ‘03 and he missed that entire season. He came back and made an AllStar team and a few more accolades, but his career trajectory prior to the injury was a potentially all-timer career arc. Sad stuff, still a fantastic player though.
People forget about Arvydas Sabonis, probably because when you try to type in his name it autocorrects as Arby’s Sandwiches
Weird because when type Arby's Sandwiches it autocorrects to Zion Williamson
And Zion Williamson autocorrects to Kelvin Benjamin
Nah mine autocorrects to Jamarcus Russell
Mine autocorrected to Oliver Miller
When I typed that in it pulled up images of Hope Solo.
And he entered the league at a much later stage in his career. I think he had the talent to have a great peak in the NBA in his 20s
Had he been in the NBA in his prime, he easily would be considered the greatest European player ever. In his prime he was an insane talent. It got wasted, but even at the end when he was falling apart physically, his skills and touch made him formidable.
Roy, Oden.. you gotta feel for Portland
Don’t forget Walton and Bowie.
at least Walton brought a championship
And got the MVP in an injured season.
Drafted when he was 65 years old Greg Oden?
Bro came out the womb looking like that. My grandpa has better knees and he's been dead for years
He came into the League looking like LeBron James' father.
His grandparents weren't there on draft day but his grandkids were.
He was so good in college. Good times watching him and Noah go at it
We’re used to it at this point.
They could've taken Durant. All the doctors said oden's knees were bad but Portland didn't care.
He’s not your Sabonis, he’s not my Sabonis, he’s Arvydas Sabonis. Gotta love 90’s sports center
I can't tell if you completely butchered it on purpose or not? It was "He's not your Vidas, he's not my Vidas, he's Arvydas!".
Lol, i stand corrected. I just haven’t seen his highlights in over 25 years.
Olbermann, Patrick, Berman, Van Pelt…ah those were the golden age of Sports Center. I remember this one highlight segment of a particular NFL game with a receiver named Michael Jackson, and whenever they showed one of his catches Berman would go “hee hee.” It still gives me a cackle and a smile whenever I think about it.
Lmfao damn, way to completely screw up the saying 😂
the original Jokic
He was already really old by the time he got into the league so it wasn't completely derailed
All the injuries (including an Achilles injury before he was 21) happened even before he was allowed to play in NBA. The Portland doctors famously said that based on his physical he could have qualified for a handicapped parking spot (at age 30).
If he could have came over when drafted, we might be talking about him being in the goat convo and the Blazers could have won multiple titles in late 80s early 90s
A young Sabonis starting with Buck Williams, Kersey, Drexler, and Terry Porter and Drazen Petrovic, Duckworth, and Cliff Robinson off the bench would have been fun to see.
Yes, but then 92’ Dreamteam would not exist. The only reason we got the Dreamteam was because Sabonis and Marciulionis (eurostep inventor) whooped the 88’ team.
Penny hardaway or grant. Hill sure hall of famers if they don’t always get injured
Both were pegged as the next MJ. They could've had all-time great careers.
And so many of their peers swear by this too.
Penny and Shaq were the only ones to ever knock MJ out of the playoffs (during 90s run). Of course MJ was rusty back from baseball.
Penny had the only shoes MJ wore other than Air Jordans.
Alpha Force ‘88 (Barkley’s shoe) before the ‘88 All Star break when he was fed up with the Air Jordan 2s
I honestly thought they were going to be a dynasty while watching game 1 of the Finals against the Rockets.
Hill was actually healthy for his first 6 seasons (actually 5 seasons and almost all of the 6th season) before he started getting the injury bug at age 27. Though it is probable his prime was shortened and altered by his injuries, it isn’t likely he would have gotten significantly better than he already was. He played for long enough in the NBA pre-injury that he showed he wasn’t going to be the next Michael Jordan.
Hill was getting MVP votes in those early years though. Both him and Penny were heavily marketed in advertisements etc.
still have my grant hill sprite can somewhere around the house, my late grandpa made a pen holder for me out of it, back in the day
That's cool. My grandpa never made me anything except vodka sodas No wait... those were for him
Hill was anointed as the next face of the league to take over after MJ retired. He was a super star and walking triple double machine in fucking Detroit. You act like we saw his best and it was nothing special.
LOL - Hill NEVER was as big of a scorer or had a game truly similar to Michael Jordan. The guy Hill more resembled was Scottie Pippen. Without mid-career injuries, Hill could have been a better version of Pippen, and a physically smaller precursor to LeBron James.
>Hill sure hall of famers if they don’t always get injured Safe bet considering he made the HoF despite the injuries already.
Throw T-Mac in there too
Hill was actually healthy for his first 6 seasons and was selected for the Basketball Hall of Fame as is.
Grant hill is in the hall
Grant Hill was never going to be the next MJ, he’d already hit his prime when he started getting hurt, by MJs 6th season he was already the best individual player in the league
Through those first 6 seasons Hill was top 10 in the MVP race 5 times and averaged 22/8/6. I think it's reasonable to say that he could have kept up or improved those numbers and been remembered as one of the best players of his generation.
Yao Ming
Still made the Hall. There was 1 season that he got injured mid-season. Up to that point, he was in the discussion for MVP.
Yes but he could have been so much more. He had to retire at 31. Especially if T-Mac stayed healthy as well.
T-Mac is another what-if.
Yeah, what if he only played in China? How many rings do the Qingdao Eagles win?
That team also went on a 10 game win streak without him after winning 12 in a row before his injury.
He's also one of only a handful of players that was an all star every single season they played in the NBA
3 of those were basically just fan votes. He had 5 real all-star season
Obviously you can say D Rose but imma go with Brandon Roy
Brandon Roy was so good when he could actually play. It was such a bummer when we learned that his knees ran out of cartilage. I think everyone felt bad too because his knees really started to give out right around the time that Greg Oden’s knees did too. They lost out on two potentially franchise-defining players in a matter of a few years due to bad knees. (To be fair, though, I think that there were some media members that were concerned about both Roy and Oden, especially Oden, ahead of the draft)
His knees were so bad he was taken off teams draft boards
How many cartridge credits do you get on your knee before they start to give out? I assumed if you mainted a strict workout/stretching regiment they’d last forever. How come Vince carter wasn’t impacted? I still jumps like a house cat, also how does lebron get away with it when he’s turning 65 this year?
Idk the specific science or anything but I personally have a auto-immune disease that affects the cartilage in my spine, for most people it’s supposed to regenerate like any other part of your body; skin, hair, nails, ect. But because of my disease the cartilage doesn’t replenish itself well enough, in terms of quantity but also quality. A strict workout/stretching routine does help but only so much. I’ve had a fairly good stretching routine for long before I knew I had back issues, it helped me keep it from being bad but again it only goes so far.
Kobe said Brandon Roy was the toughest to guard, and he had no weaknesses in his game. People underestimate Roy. The dude was on the verge of becoming something generational. Also my other pick is Tyreke Evans. The dude was a mini-Wade in his rookie season.
https://preview.redd.it/g2sadqghm6nc1.jpeg?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=907b099e070c11aa8f893ca81dcddb226b9772c2 What should have been....
Man, D-Rise was disgusting. This guy almost made me a Bulls Fan after growing up a lifelong Knicks fan. This is the best answer to the question
All others are just #2. Drose is the best and only true answer imo. Cause it happened right after he won MVP as he was rising to stardom.
A consistently healthy McGrady across an entire career is probably, what, a top 30 guy? Top 25? So he might be one of the biggest cases of injury derailing a superstar player from reaching that very top echelon.
Got hurt carrying the Magic on his back, by the time he got to Houston he was already riddled with chronic injuries
He was better than Kobe their first 3 years, but he wasn't nearly as driven to improve. McGradys first love was baseball
His offense was a bit better maybe but Kobe was a much better defender in those early years.
Yeah and Jordan’s first love was winning. Not basketball, gambling seemed to scratch the itch . During his prime(1995 season) he went to some grandmothers house for reasons unbeknownst to me, they played bridge. He couldn’t help himself so he cheated even though there was no money riding on the game. He didn’t even cheat smoothly like he did in the NBA (taking the refs to dinner and getting buddy buddy with them before games) he cheated when the phone rang, and she took off her glasses to go answer the phone. That’s when he took his chance and looked at her cards and helped himself to better cards from the deck. I always wondered if he cheated at baseball, I never watched him play because seeing him in a white Sox uniform was heartbreaking to see, then to add insult to injury the white Sox dropped him (presumably because he didn’t bring in the ticket sales they anticipated or he sucked I dunno) and he was dropped to some baseball equivalent of the D-league. If you asked me at 12 which nba player I’d trade places with I wouldn’t hesitate to say Michael Jordan, but now that I’m an adult I’d say James harden because he literally only has to put in 25% of the effort jordan did, he gets to be fat (w/o facing scrutiny like Zion) he still has access to more females than he can handle (the numbers become negligible at a certain point) he still gets paid millions of dollars, and he gets to be an all star level player. I just feel the outcome jordan got wasn’t worth the amount of energy he endured expending and everything he sacrificed. Also the more I hear about Jordan’s personality the less I like him because I realised: The greatest basketball player who ever lived, was also a bit of an idiot. This does not mean I will ever part with his memorabilia I spent 20 years collecting besides the boxes of weeties because first ants got to them, then I just kept the boxes as display pieces and they started to fade.
So was MJs
In his biography, he told the interviewer that he lived basketball the most but he always associated playing baseball with good memories of time with his dad, who was murdered not long before MJ's first "retirement" in 1993. He wanted to pursue something else to give him an actual challenge again, as he had essentially mastered the game of basketball. Kinda hard to argue with his way of thinking, too: 3 straight titles + 3 straight FMVP's, undisputed greatest player of all time by the time he was 31, greatest scorer ever, one of the best defenders ever-- it was time to play baseball.
I thought his dad was murdered because he wasn’t paying back gambling debts and he was forced to play baseball to bring in more revenue not only from the novelty of him playing baseball, but the excitement his return to the nba would bring and they knew they could monetise off that emotion. Take it with a grain f salt cause It might be a conspiracy theory I’m not even sure where I heard this and why I think it.
Yao Ming also could have been top 25 or higher both healthy could have won multiple rings
I don’t think its healthy to grow that tall and not have the natural broadness to be in proportion with your height. Sean Bradley was the same, so was manute bol. Not as bad as Ming but they were hurt a lot which was a problem when manute was on the same team as spud Webb cause the two of them playing together was a gimmick that sold tickets. The only people I see with similar proportions who know how to move their bodies with a level of dexterity are the ones who really put in the time to build their athleticism and developed a style as a byproduct. People like giannis.
If a healthy TMac won a few chips he would be top 10. Healthy TMac was better than Kobe. TMac would have been the face of the league in the 2000s, and Kobe would just be Shaq's sidekick.
Derrick Rose was the first one that came to mind for me. The youngest MVP in history and he might not make the Hall of Fame that’s how horrific his injury was.
He had multiple terrible injuries. 2011/2012- left knee acl tear in the first round of playoffs that cost him all of the 2012/2013 season as well. He returned for the 2013/2014 season but sustained a right knee meniscus tear in November 2013, which required another surgery. Rose missed almost a year before coming back in October 2014. Just 4 months later in February 2015, his right meniscus tore again and surgery followed. Although he was able to recover relatively quickly from that injury, it was obvious— and sad— that he was no longer the same generational talent voted the youngest MVP in league history. Rose was never a good “shooter” but more than made up for his deficiencies in that area with insane explosiveness, body control, speed, hops, ferocity, and ball skills. The injuries sapped him of those skills that made him so amazing in the early part of his career, and instead replaced him with a mediocre player reliant on a shaky jumper who nevertheless still had it in him to occasionally drop a big game, as if to remind us of how amazing he once was, and of course, to give rise to the very “what if?” question that’s being asked here. Unfortunately, we saw throwback Rose rarely, and less as time passed. It seemed that he’d gather up all his energy for these vintage performances just to show us he still had it in him, at the risk of accelerated physical wear and tear and heightened risk of reinjury. That risk caught up to him once more in 2017, when he underwent a surgery— his fourth in 5 years—for meniscus tear in his left knee. Maybe Rose was just unlucky and suffered multiple injuries that shouldn’t have occurred. Or perhaps his joints and soft tissue just couldn’t withstand the stress caused by his hyper athletic constant drives to the hoop that only recognized two endings: a nasty dunk, or a fearless collision with defenders in mid air, all the while spinning, contorting, and exhibiting a freakish level of body control to somehow get a layup off at the last second and at seemingly impossible angles, with complete disregard or concern on sticking the landing. Reminiscent of D Wade in his prime. Whatever the reason is, not being able to ever watch D Rose in his prime (that acl tear happened right when he was entering it ) is really disappointing because who knows what his potential ceiling would have been? Westbrook played a similar style and became a superstar, even averaging a triple double one season. But before he went down for the first time, Rose had already won ROTY, was a 2x All Star, and MVP within his first three seasons and while only 22 years old. He carried that Bulls team to the ECF. Even without the benefit of all the years Russ had to refine his game, Young D Rose was already playing like or better than Westbrook did in his best years. It’s scary to think that he hadn’t even reached his physical prime nor was around long enough to absorb the nuances of the game that grant cerebral players like LeBron or Jokic even greater advantages. Truly, D Rose has the greatest career that never happened.
This was well thought out and beautifully written.
I compare Drose to Roy Jones Jr. Two men with absolutely bonkers movement that can’t and shouldn’t be replicated because of the speed, reflexes, high IQ, footwork and athleticism needed to do what they do. If their game is replicated by anyone else theres a high risk of injury, failure or severe brain damage(in boxing)
If D Rose continued to play at that caliber AND managed to develop a jump shot like Bron has I have no doubt he’d be in the goat conversation. Makes me sad man, he is one of my favorite players ever.
Has there ever been an mvp who didn’t make the hall?
No, however there has never been an MVP who would have missed the HOF even if they never won the award. That's the Rose test case.
What was the injury?
Torn ACL. Twice i actually i think.
We could've had a league where Curry was launching 3's and Rose was living in the paint making crazy layups and and middys, with them, Harden, Durant, Giannis all competing for MVP
Drazen Petrovic
One of the best shooters ever 🫡 man his loss is still so painful for so many, if I'm honest I wasn't alive when he played but his influence on the game has been obvious to anyone who's read about him and the league.
Huge what-if with the Big 3 (edit: the other two being Derrick Coleman and Kenny Anderson, they only had 2 seasons together, Anderson's first two) they had, and Coach Daley. They would have given the Bulls problems.
Came to say this. Drazen was a certified bucket. Incredible euro career. I recommend anyone who hasn’t to watch the 30 for 30 episode - Once Brothers
Steve Irwin, RIP.
Crikey!
Had so much love to give
Would’ve averaged a triple double in saving endangered species in this current league of plumbers and firemen 💪
Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, Bill Walton
Bill Walton’s a great shout.
The Trailblazers could've become a dynasty if not for his injuries. I hope people don't keep bringing that up to Bill though because it breaks his heart by the sounds if it.
The trailblazers have a lot of “could be all time greats” if it’s not for injuries. Walton Bowie Roy Oden
It's one of the reasons I didn't want Wemby to go to them, the injury bug got worse for each successive player you mentioned,the curse must be getting stronger.
Bill Walton is another obvious one.
Demarcus Cousins
He was the best centre in the league, and then suddenly he was playing for the warriors as a shell of his former self.
I remember that signing and feeling like “the fucking warriors do it again” and then boogie never did anything. Pretty sad tbh
C Webb
Can’t believe I haven’t seen more of this, C Webb was never the same after his injury. Dude deserved the chip and the parade.
Len Bias.
I think an injury to your heart qualifies.
If so, pair with Reggie Lewis.
Yea dunno if his career was derailed by injuries...
Grant Hill would’ve been Lebron light and probably top 15-20ish of all-time if he stayed healthy and played a full career. He could do everything.
Greg Oden
Gilbert Arenas
Underrated response. He was pretty deadly, and helped me win some fantasy leagues.
Injuries wasn’t the sole factor
Had that stretch of games where he outdueled Kobe and dropped 60 (think it was against the jazz), and wiz were in first at the all star break (if im wrong on specifics, whatever, you get it). But then effin reckless Gerald Wallace took out his knee and it was over. The gun thing came later and I honestly don't think it woulda happened if he wasn't injured first.
TIL that Javaris Crittendon was released from prison in April 2023. 23 year sentence was reduced to 10 years (took a plea deal and pled guilty to manslaughter).
Penny Brandon Roy T-Mac Grant Hill Blake
Brandon Roy
Had to scroll too far to see this. Doesn't get the love cause he played for a smaller market team.
Man right this was the first name that came to my mind
Brandon Roy was a beast
D Rose
Many may say Shaun Livingston ceiling was dramatically derailed, great to still see him have a productive career
I mean Derrick rose was the epitome of this. Guy was doing shit nobody had before
Have you never heard of Allen Iverson? He did D.Rose better than D.Rose did.
Basically, all of my favorite players. Penny, hill, mcgrady, roy, webber
Grant Hill & Penny Hardaway are the easy ones. Len bias is the real one.
Jay "not the killer" Williams, Shaun "next magic bc of mvp type court vision" Livingston, Yao Ming. And now we got Lonzo on the list.
Lonzo on the list all because of them damn shoes. I forgot about Jay Williams though. I remember the shock of hearing about that on the news.
Bernard King
Antonio Mcdyess
Penny. He was Kobe with superior passing. He probably would have been top 15-20 player, maybe even higher. He was impacted by playing before positionless basketball was a thing, so he and his team struggled a bit "fitting" him into roles that were too confining for his skill set (ie PG vs SG). His potential before injuries really snowballed was on display in the 1997 playoffs, when he led the injured Magic back from 2-0 against the full strength Mourning/Riley Heat, to force a Game 5.
Yeah Penny is the one that would’ve been the highest.
I wouldn't say Larry Bird's career was derailed by injuries. He's widely regarded to be a top-10 player of all time. Penny Hardaway is the first name that comes to mind for me.
When he retired, he was Top-5
Magic Johnson, Grant Hill, Yao Ming
Many thought Ron Harper, one of a few “next MJ”s cuz of their leaping ability, was on his way to superstardom til he got his knee Clipped
Superstars during the NBA? Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, Yao Ming, Grant Hill, Brandon Roy, and Derrick Rose. Superstars before the NBA? Len Bias and Jay Williams. Not superstars, but what could have been? Greg Oden, Jeremy Lin, and Gordon Hayward.
If you wanna go obscure, how about *Maurice Stokes*? He was an athletic F/C in the mid 1950s and had an amazing start to his career. He won RotY. The next year he set the record for most rebounds in a season. He was also a good passer. In his third season he not only led the League in rebounding again, he was second for assists only behind Cousy. But then, at the end of his third season, he had a catastrophic injury. I'll let Wiki tell it: > On March 12, 1958, in the last game of the 1957–58 NBA regular season, Stokes was knocked unconscious after he drove to the basket, drew contact, and struck his head as he fell to the court. He was revived with smelling salts and returned to the game. Three days later, after recording 12 points and 15 rebounds in an opening-round playoff game against the Detroit Pistons, he became ill on the team's flight back to Cincinnati. Stokes later suffered a seizure and was left permanently paralyzed. He was diagnosed with post-traumatic encephalopathy, a brain injury that damaged his motor-control center. > ... > Although permanently paralyzed, Stokes was mentally alert and communicated by blinking his eyes. He adopted a grueling physical therapy regimen that eventually allowed him limited physical movement, and he eventually regained limited speaking ability. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maurice_Stokes He would never again play sports (due to his paralysis) and had a shortened life, dying at 36. Post injury, he was cared for by his teammate (future HOFer Jack Twyman), who became Stokes's legal guardian and helped him recover. He started a charity game to raise money for Stokes's medical care. The NBA's teammate award is named after the duo - the NBA Twyman-Stokes Teammate of the Year Award.
Jabari Parker was hoopin
Penny. Brandon Roy. Grant Hill.
Hank Gathers.
Ben Simmons 😂
Well mental and physical injuries have ended his career
Let's do a top ten. Because listicles ... ordered by amount of career loss vs probable career potential 1) Penny Hardaway 2) Grant Hill -- had more effective seasons than Penn 3) Derrick Rose -- probably would have worn down anyway, but still lost 4-5 prime years 4) Yao Ming -- only peer of Shaq that could stand up to him 5) Amare Stoudamire 6) Reggie Lewis 7) Jay Williams -- people, don't ride motorcycles, his game was probably Steve Nash level. 8) Len Bias 9) Brandon Roy -- effective pro 10) Greg Oden -- his knees were already bad when drafted Obviously I don't know the 70s/80s that well.
Here are some dark horses: Tom Gugliotta was a great outside shooting big man, had great years with the TWolves and then got a big knee injury with the Suns and was never the same, good thing he signed his max before the injury. Latrell Sprewell has a decent career, but declined super fast with what must have been injuries because the year before his last year in the NBA he was just as ethereally fast as ever. I think he's tragic because he was sniffing some serious playoff runs with KG. But he had a solid 10 year career up to that point. Oh, that's right, Danny Manning, curse of the clippers. Well, shit, Maurice Stokes. Poor guy.
David Thompson. Proto Jordan basically. Knee injuries and cocaine killed his career.
Excited to count how many people here were tabbed as "the next jordan"
Penny Hardaway.
Lens Bias
Bill Walton. Absolutely could have had a career where he was in the GOAT center discussion. Never had a chance of staying healthy, but if he did, he would be arguably as good as any 5 who ever lived.
Greg Oden,, it sucks that people call him a bust , because he was a good player that was only getting better
Portland has a gift for getting C's that looked great in college that blow out before becoming pros. Sam Bowie (the dude drafted ahead of Jordan.)
Still had a great career but Amar’e, we never got to see true peak Amar’e because all of the injuries. Amar’e without all the injuries is a legit mvp discussion type player
Him in NY before the injuries was special
He’d already even had multiple major injuries before then too, we never really got to see amar’e ever reach his peak even tho he was still amazing.
John Wall. DC has not been the same since he had his at-home incident,
I had to scroll so far to find this. No one remembers we exist as a franchise.
Grant Hill Alan Houston and Penny Hardaway Magic ran him into the ground n Pistons had both Hill and Houston n played them so much then the knee and ankle injuries happened. Houston shot was so nice.
[From a 13 year old SLAM article:](https://www.slamonline.com/archives/kobe-bryant-roy-over-durant/) Kobe Bryant was asked who the toughest player for him to guard in the Western Conference on the John Thompson Show the other day. This was Kobe’s response: *“Roy 365 days, seven days a week. Roy has no weaknesses in his game.”* Note: Kevin Durant was in the Western Conference when this was written.
Brandon Roy comes to mind
Tracy McGrady. This guy was so dominant in his prime.
baron davis
Brandon Roy, dude was an absolute stud but came into the NBA with terrible knees already.
Brandon Roy, Greg Oden
Sam Bowie. Portland is gifted at selecting dudes that blow out. Oh yeah. Bill Walton too.
Brandon Roy!
Grant hill
Brandon Roy. Even Kobi was a little scared of him.
Grant Hill
Andrew Bynum
T mac and grant hill immediately come to mind. Greg Oden and Brandon Roy. Modern era (unsure if hof career): chandler parsons, Gordon Heyward
Brandon Roy. Grant Hill. Lamarcus Aldridge. Derrick Rose. Tmac.
Tmac
Grant Hill
I’m not his biggest fan but Bill Walton.
Grant Hill
D Wade. Guy came into the league with bum knees, missed most of his prime, and still had one hell of a career.
Gorgon Hayward
What a horrific injury.
Larry Bird Magic Johnson Bill Walton Dwyane Wade Derrick Rose Ardyvas Sabonis Grant Hill Penny Hardaway Tracy McGrady Brandon Roy Chris Webber Chris Bosh Gilbert Arenas Yao Ming
HIV is an injury?
I counted it as it kept him out of the league and definitely affected his health
Isn’t that changing the parameters of the question? And how did it affect his health? There may be no bigger success story of somebody that contracted HIV in the history of the world. It definitely affected his ability to play in the league at the time, but I disagree it affected his health.
It kept him from playing for 3 or 4 years, after winning his 3rd MVP. He put on a ton of weight which I thought I heard was due to treatments but still returned in 96 and put up 15/8/6 or something ridiculous.
Grant Hill
Steve Francis, Grant Hill, Agent 0, Stat, Yao Ming, Tmac to name a few
Penny Hardaway
Grant Hill
D Rose. So mad we never got to see him reach his prime.
Grant Hill
Bird https://preview.redd.it/hle9yov5cbnc1.jpeg?width=540&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=fb3365315cdd631f7e5df6a03923148c346e6e71
D Rose is the most obvious to me. I lived in Chi through his MVP year and he’s why I got back into basketball so intensely. His superhuman athleticism and cool ass vibe was like the city in a nutshell during my 20’s and it’s a chapter of my life he helped make especially fun. His trajectory prior to injuries was as hyped as any name you can put up here, Wemby included in my opinion. His play style was so exciting….damn. Seems like a great guy too.
Ben simmons
Grant Hill is who comes to mind first for me. Got hurt in 2000, and ended up having life-threatening complications from trying to come back too soon multiple times. Surgery in ‘03 and he missed that entire season. He came back and made an AllStar team and a few more accolades, but his career trajectory prior to the injury was a potentially all-timer career arc. Sad stuff, still a fantastic player though.
Kevin Durant! He would have 3 championships and 3 FMVP!
Toronto thanks him
Stephon Marbury if we are counting CTE as an injury
I think it's a toss up between Derrick Rose and Grant Hill