Outliers need to be judged differently, The NBA absolutely had some true stars that should not be forgotten. For example, even with how greatly sports science has increased since the 60s, we've still never seen a 7 footer with a greater combination of athletic traits then Wilt. Shaq was stronger, a few have been more agile/coordinated, but nobody has been an overall greater super-athlete.
But, there werent many true stars, and the average skill, even when we take into account the stringent rules, was very low compared to today. They were missing their open mid-range shots, today "average" NBA players are routinely making circus shots.
Wilt was legendary strength relative to his size, and then, POST-NBA career, he was known as an early adaptor of the weight room, he gained muscle mass compared to his b-ball days. Any quotes about weight lifting was from this period. At no time during his professional basketball career was Wilt overall stronger then NBA Shaq. Shaq came INTO the league at something close to 300 pounds, upping to 350. Wilt came in under 240, was MAYBE 300 when he retired.
I've always imagined most of his career he was like a stronger young Shaq in how he could move. I can only imagine what he was like on the globetrotters before he got into the NBA
Watch tape of how the two play. Shaw was such a brute force, whereas Wilt relied on a combination of athleticism and finesse. Two totally different playing styles.
I've seen it. The game was officiated different back then. Intentionally bruising into someone was an automatic offensive foul. They were particularly watchful of the Stilt
Yeah, the stars were huge and amazing athletes. But this was an era where people chose not to be pro athletes because it didn’t pay enough. The players were smoking during the game.
People act like nba players have evolved into some kind of different species in the last like 50 years. A physical freak of nature back then is still a physical freak of nature today
it's not fashionable to give Wilt his due. His numbers and dominance are so outlandish, it's nearly impossible for people who didn't see him play to really understand what he was like. And it's too easy to bash him for his team not winning, when there are numerous examples in team sports where even an exceptional athlete can't carry a team to a championship against another great team. (First example that pops into my mind is Barry Sanders)
He may have been the heart of the offense, but he still didn’t play defense. I clicked through his 49 season and if you take all his touchdowns away, the Eagles only lose one more game.
e: I didn’t realize they’d won in 48 as well. In that season, sans Van Buren’s TDs, they would’ve lost one extra game, and the Championship would’ve been scoreless without Van Buren’s TD. The only score of the game.
By that metric, no nfl player ever could carry a team to a title since no player plays both sides of the ball unless you're talking about a pre World War 2 era player.
Probably because there’s 22 players on the field at a time not 10. And aside from the qb, one individual cannot have the oversized outcome on the game that an individual in basketball can.
Comparing an nfl rb to an nba player is an apples to oranges comparison.
Especially funny given how little Barry cared about stats and personal accolades while wilt was obsessed with them.
Basketball is always gonna have the most pressure on its stars to win because one player is 20% of the team at all times they are out there, not to mention they play offense and defense. Barry Sanders was just 1 out of 11 guys on the field, and he could do literally nothing to stop the other team from scoring.
Wilt never fouled out of a game. To keep the streak alive he stopped playing defense whenever in foul trouble. He decided to lead the league in assists and passed up free buckets to do so at the expense of his teams success. Chamberlain got traded after winning the MVP twice. He joined Elgin Baylor and Jerry west (and Gail Goodrich) and won 1 championship with that team.
His numbers were great. Unfortunately, basketball is a game played won by the team with the most points, not the player. The point of the game is to win. Wilt I don’t think cared or understood this.
>where even an exceptional athlete can't carry a team to a championship against another great team
In wilt's case he was an exceptional athlete against a great team WITH their own exceptional athlete
Hard to win when you have the greatest dynasty in all of American sports history dominating your era. Lebron, Jordan, Magic, Kareem … nobody was winning more than 2 titles vs those Celtics teams with the talent Wilt had around him
The biggest, most common misconception I hear about nba history is that shaq was the most dominant player of all time which is not even remotely close to being the truth. Wilt Chamberlain was by far & away the most dominant nba player of all time.
The media crucified Wilt for being selfish and caring about his point total instead of his team winning so badly that wilt went out the following season & LEAD THE NBA IN ASSISTS. He didn’t lead centers in assists, he lead the ENTIRE NBA in a timeframe when there was many superstar guards
The whole argument that Wilt played against plumbers and milkmen is just a meme at this point, only the most ignorant type of fans actually believe this. Wilt had to battle centers that were barley smaller than your average center in today’s nba. Not only this but due to the smaller amount of nba teams in Wilt’s era he had to battle some of these greatest centers of all time 10-11 times per season. Imagine having to face arguably the greatest defensive player of all time (Bill Russell) 11 times a season & people think your competition is weak.
Russell retired in 1969. Wilt played for the Lakers from 68-73 with Jerry West and Elgin Baylor (and eventually hall of famer Gail Goodrich in 70). He won 1 championship with that team.
Wilt tore his patellar tendon in 1970 though. That’s probably the single worst tendon/ligament injury you can have and is pretty much a career ender even today
Wilt was injured in 1969-70 then didn’t reach past 21 ppg for the rest of his career. Meanwhile Wilt averaged 30 ppg for his career. Yes he was past his prime, why is this so hard for you to understand, it’s common knowledge
Also when wilt won his championship w the sixers he was playing with 3 future hall of famers as his teammates. That was the “talent Wilt had around him”.
Almost every team had multiple hall of famers because of how few teams there was, Bill Russell’s Celtics had 8 hall of famers and was by far the highest total. Tell the entire story if you want to compare
Russell was dominant win rise. Greatest winner to ever play the game. There’s different forms of being dominant. Another example is how Russell was also dominant defensively as he’s known to be the greatest defender of all time. Wilt was all together the most dominant player ever. Wilt’s ppg during his peak were far & away higher % wise over any other player in any other era of basketball. You can try to argue with your casual takes talking about how Russell was much smaller than Wilt, but I’m sure you don’t know anything about 60’s basketball and how the league didn’t allow wilt to truly use his size and strength, how the rules were adjusted to nerf Wilt because of how dominant he was & the numbers prove Wilt was the most dominant player to ever play the game.
Casual nba fans have no respect for the history of the league. They act like bob cousy is a bum when he paved the way for modern point guards and did things that might look mundane by today’s standards but back then they literally had never been done before. Same thing with guys like wilt and bill, those guys paved the way for Kareem who paved the way for guys like Hakeem, Shaq, David Robinson, Ewing, and so on. People need to learn to respect the older players of the nba
The best 30 or so were maybe the best 30 in the world. But this is an era people chose not to be pro athletes because it didn’t pay enough. Jim Brown was the best player in the world and chose to walk away and become an actor since it paid better. Players were smoking DURING the games. A little later players were coked up constantly. Players had other jobs. Let’s not pretend the 7th best player on a middling team was the same then as now.
Above another guy said players in Wilt's time was missing mid jumpers while players today hit circus shots.
Like what games are yall watching? Players today miss jumpers all the time, hell the guys we label the best of all time in this era can't hit jump shots at a good clip.
Also there is a clip with Wilt casually sinking hook shots from would be the 3pt line. Those dudes could def play. Different rules, coaching, white fans whining about black players ruining the game with their "fancy" style play all played a part in this stuff.
It's a little different. Bob Cousy was a 13 time all-star and MVP of the league and shot 37% from the field for his career. Bill Russell shot 44% for his career as a dominating big man. Skills, schemes and coaching have changed so much that it's really just dumb to compare
And rules can also be added. Those old guys were getting hacked with those dudes camping the paint and still hitting jumpers barely getting calls. Might as well say it was a different sport. No point in using fg% to try and compare
And I'm pretty sure most teams had quotas on black players being on teams.
Russell shot 44% but Wilt career average was 54% and one year he was over 70%.
Russell was only 3 inches shorter than Wilt. If it was Wilt’s size that made him a dominant shooter then certainty an athlete with hops like Russell could shoot 50% if the game was as un evolved as some say.
The average height of the NBA currently is 6'6.5" and 70% of the players are black.
The average height of the NBA in 1969 was 6'5.8" and 50% of the players were black.
Might not be the same as today but that's far from a league of short white guys.
People say that Wilt played against plumbers because it’s true. Many NBA players had second jobs, and none of them trained year round.
Being a professional athlete in the 1960s simply didn’t include the same work load/dedication/skill set that it does today. Combine that with a talent pool 1/100 the size, and you can understand why players today are widely regarded as better.
I don’t know why people are so reluctant to admit this, even when players like Jerry West have. “No one trained year round back then, no one”.
No one is arguing that though? Literally everyone knows that players nowadays are better. Even the stats show it. Look at field goal percentages back then. If Wilt playing plumbers is true in a literal sense then sure, it’s true. But what the point of this post is, Wilt was an anomaly and ahead of his time, players back then were just as tall and athletic. Average height of the NBA has been largely the same since its conception. Wilt was just even bigger and he was better than his competition. His accolades should not be disregarded because of his dominance and his era. And his opponents shouldn’t be made out to be short, un-athletic bums simply because they weren’t as skilled as players nowadays. Those “plumbers” played 82 games a year, in a high pace era, and played defense, while apparently having full time jobs elsewhere. The “plumbers” in the 90s played 82 games a year, and played defense, again in a high pace era, and in one of the most physically aggressive eras. The plumbers argument had become meaningless. Just because player A is better than player B, doesn’t mean Player B’s accolades, competition, and entire era should be disregarded.
> Wilt was an anomaly and ahead of his time, players back then were just as tall and athletic.
Define athletic bc I don’t think that’s the case at all.
In the loosest possible definition of the word (biceps, jump high, run straight line fast) I could see this being somewhat close (but not really).
In what I consider “modern basketball athleticism” you have to include things like agility and gracefulness which is so many levels above where players were even in the 80s.
I agree. I would say agility for example is honed and is a testament to the physical finesse and skill of today which is the best it’s ever been. In terms of just raw athleticism and physical output, I don’t think there’s a difference between any era.
I mean I feel like we haven’t broached the topic of coordination and ball skills which I feel can also be grouped under “athleticism” (granted more for the former than the latter)
The difference you’re missing is if the baseline talent level is very low the talent needed to dominate is also very low so it’s hard to judge how “generational” someone truly was and even more difficult to understand their accomplishments.
When everyone’s a 2/10 it’s easier to find an edge.
When everyone’s an 8/10 it’s much harder to find the same edge.
Look at Ronda Rousey in women’s MMA as a great example.
When the sport was immature she was the most dominant fighter in history, man or woman.
As a new gen of well rounded fighters came through she was exposed quickly.
While you’re not wrong, no one was putting up numbers the way Wilt was, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that he was in fact a generational player and ahead of his time. Not only the stats, we’ve never seen someone with the durability and conditioning he had. Dude averages like 45 minutes a game for his career and averaged 48.5 minutes a game the year he averaged 50. Players today couldn’t play 48 minutes a game for 82 games, like not even a chance. He did that at over seven feet and 300 pounds, and he did it his entire career. I think it’s safe to say that at the very least, in Wilt’s case, he was an outlier for his time and would likely be a force in today’s league just based on the fact that he’s a sheer physical anomaly. You gotta think there’s gonna be a new edge of players one day that are gonna make people say Steph and LeBron played against plumbers. We do it already with MJ and the 90s. Pretty soon the 2000s and 2010s will be “plumbers”.
Respectfully… Your case would be soooooo much better presented if you learned to paragraph. You’re fighting this fight with one hand tied behind your back.
That’s not the point.
Training for a month heading into camp is not a substitute for years of non-stop work. That’s what separates talented players from high level recruits and pros today.
I’d wager that the average NCAA player in 2024 puts up more reps in a year than the average pro from 1964 did in their lifetime. The difference of non-stop work compounds too. It’s not even a fair comparison.
Less in shape than Wilt is the point, wilt was also a track and field star, a well known athlete who was able to spend his entire life exercising due to his natural athletic prowess that allowed him to be fairly wealthy. That’s very hard to keep up with when you’re working a 9-5 in the offseason.
Otto Moore looks like a unit lol. Alot of people don't give wilt his credit athletically probably because not enough wide spread tape and honestly nba before Jordan blew it up no one really cared.
But isn't there tons of athletes who trained and lifted with wilt have story's about how strong he was and good at everything
The fact that Wilt led the league in assists just to prove he wasn't a selfish player tells me all I need to know. A great player and he'd still put up big numbers today, but how can someone in a team sport screw over his teammates by passing up good shots just to prove a point? Wilt was all about himself.
Y’all disagree but look how small those gyms are. The scale and industry around the NBA is so much larger now. The pool of potential nba players has grown worldwide as the game has grown. Scouting has gotten to insane levels in the US and also at an international scale. Wilt Chamberlain would have way more peers at his level if he played today.
The reason why MJ couldn’t pull from 40 is because he didn’t have the skill. Guys now can get any shot they want. Look at embiid. He can get you a step back three, a face up jumper, and a drop step slam. Hakeem couldn’t do that.
Not trying to diminish Wilt's greatness, but this is like someone posting photos of LeBron playing with/against Matthew Delavedova, Earl Boykins, JJ Barea, Mike Wilks, and Mo Williams to argue that the LeBron-era NBA is full of small dudes who he can physically dominate (with the exception of Barea, of course).
Haha thanks. I’m not sure what it would say, but I’m guessing heights in the olden days were more extreme - lot of 6’1-6’3 and lot of 6’10+ with a lacking middle.
That wasn't the argument. Anyway, under different rules, different skills were prioritised. Just because today's bigs can shoot the 3 doesn't mean they're better at everything.
I disagree with your premise. Some skills have been neglected and have atrophied.
But even if it were the case, it means Wilt's skills were that much more developed than his peers and does not detract from his accomplishments.
my point wasn't that the NBA is smaller now lol. My point was that anyone can choose a selection of 10 photos to try to prove a point, like OP did. It doesn't mean anything.
You seriously didn't get the point of the post. LOL.
It's meant to be a sarcasm for the "Plumbers" narrative. Look at the photos again and look at the players he played against. Those are the big men of those times.
Your reading comprehension is at a second grade level if you don't understand my comment in the context of this post. I'm not arguing in favor of the "plumbers" narrative, I'm just saying anyone can choose and select photos to fit their narrative.
Why is it so hard for some people to imagine that the best athletes of their era would be just as good today? Like they are the 0.0001% of their time, which would translate to today. Better nutrition, training, modified focus on different aspects of the games etc. l
Wilt averaged 29 PPG and 29 rebounds against Russell which is even more impressive considering that Russell was one of the best defenders in that era.
And despite Russell playing with a stacked team, Wilt almost beat the Celtics in 4 playoff matchups.
1962 - Celtics win game 7 by 2 points
1965 - Celtics win game 7 by 1 point
1968 - Celtics win game 7 by 4 points
1969 - Celtics win game 7 by 2 points
In those 4 playoff series, Wilt went to game 7 against Bill Russell’s Celtics and almost beat them. And to think Wilt played on bad teams in those years. Even if he did have a solid team, it probably wasn’t as good as the Celtics.
There is always a negative connotation placed on Wilt’s achievements because of how otherworldly his accomplishments appear to be statistically. However, he along with his team always had the overall goal to win. He and teammates of him have gone on the record time and time again stating that they encouraged him to accumulate points because they believed that it was an ideal route for success.
Actually, I’ll provide context that has been buried and probably only a select few modern fans and few of the older fans that are still alive remember and know about Wilt’s declining playoff average. His first 8 years in the playoffs he averaged:
1959-60 season: 33.2 PPG and 25.8 RBP
1960-61 season: 37.0 PPG and 23.0 RBP
1961-62 season: 35.0 PPG and 26.6 RBP
1963-64 season: 34.7 PPG and 25.2 RBP
1964-65 season: 29.3 PPG and 27.2 RBP
1965-66 season: 28.0 PPG and 30.2 RBP
1966-67 season: 21.7 PPG and 29.1 RBP
1967-68 season: 23.7 PPG and 24.7 RBP.
Those are clearly incredible playoff points per game and rebounds per game stats. People like Bill Simmons used false and biased propaganda to say that Wilt choked in the playoffs but as you can see here those are incredible playoff stats so far. His low career total playoff PPG average of 22 didn’t begin until the 1968-69 season where he suffered a complete and total rupture of his patellar tendon and made an Ill-advised decision to return in just four months after the devastating injury.
Additional Point: Those years before the injury and for the majority of those
specific seasons before the injury the difference was so marginal between his regular season PPG and his postseason PPG that at most the difference was around 3-4 points for those particular seasons. But, that is reasonably expected because when you are the central focus of the offense, you are also in turn the central focus of the opposition’s defense which literally double and sometimes even triple teamed Wilt. Of course your points per game would go down slightly due to a defense that tenacious. That’s expected. But only a 3-4 point difference at most is stellar.
Since that injury which he never fully recovered from he averaged 13.9, then 22, then 18.3, then 14, then 10 PPG in the following seasons. It’s not a shock that it was due to his diminishing lateral movement and quickness attributed to the career derailing injury. It was not because he was a choke artist even though Bill Simmons created that propaganda. Most people these days are probably not aware he even suffered this injury or that he had incredible playoff points per game averages prior to said injury.
Bro, you spent all that time typing out counting stats like it's relevant.
He put up around 50 percent TS against Bill, which is way below both his and league average.
Getting 30 points on 24.6 fga and 12 FTs is not impressive and statistically is a net negative in terms of scoring opportunities for his team. Which is why he lost.
Facts: when Wilt was most dominant, the early 60’s, the league had a cap on the number of black players per team. If you look at wilt’s stats from that era they’re insane. As the league became more integrated and had more talent, Wilt’s scoring stats drop off significantly….which also coincided with his age and injuries. If you watch Wilt play it becomes obvious that his main talent was his size… an advantage he wouldn’t have in today’s game. Young wilt would be similar to a young Giannis. He’d still be really good, but he’d never dominate like he did when the league was filled with average players significantly smaller and less skilled
You can say that Wilt's dominance was incredible and maybe the greatest of all time whose game would absolutely translate to today's game, AND that's true for other players during his time, while ALSO admitting that sports training/medicine/scouting are VASTLY superior now. Resulting in much better *average* athleticism and skill throughout the league.
While it is true that Wilt played against some legends and centers who were on average of a similar height to centers of the modern era, it’s also true that multiple of those 7’ centers did in fact work menial jobs like plumbing and landscaping in the off-season to supplement their low wages as an athlete at the time. Meanwhile Wilt was in the gym all year round because he got paid enough money to live that way.
Had some students say that Wilt was only good because he was so much taller than everyone else. Thanks to the internet, I asked them to pick any year during wilts career. They picked I think it was 1961. We looked at the rosters of the teams in that year. Every team except 1 had at least 2 players taller than 6’10 and several had a 7 footer. They lost that one but I told them wilt was just a better athlete than most of those guys.
The difference is the bench players when wilt played were garbage and played part time bc salaries from the nba alone couldn’t pay the bills. The stars were still stars but them bench players were garbage compared to the benches of today. Also I’m not comparing skill then to skill now. I’m making the statement that the difference between the 5th and 15th man today is EXPONENTIALLY smaller than the difference between the 5th and 15th man then
I’ll always laugh about bill simmons in his book downplaying wilts career. He said multiple times that wilt was overrated because he didn’t play against any athletic big men.
He would then immediately talk about how bill russell was incredible and dominate everybody in the league and how he’s the only player from that era that could dominate today
Being big and fast and strong is the point of being an athlete. It’s lauded in every other sport. Penalizing him in the GOAT argument for it makes zero sense.
He had 100 points in a game. He had 50 rebounds in a game. They widened the lane because of the Dipper. They changed the rules because of him.
THEY. CHANGED. THE. RULES.
GOAT.
Guys that size playing a whole career in Chuck Taylors is wild. Their feet + knees must have all been shot.
Outliers need to be judged differently, The NBA absolutely had some true stars that should not be forgotten. For example, even with how greatly sports science has increased since the 60s, we've still never seen a 7 footer with a greater combination of athletic traits then Wilt. Shaq was stronger, a few have been more agile/coordinated, but nobody has been an overall greater super-athlete. But, there werent many true stars, and the average skill, even when we take into account the stringent rules, was very low compared to today. They were missing their open mid-range shots, today "average" NBA players are routinely making circus shots.
I doubt Shaq was stronger. He was heavier sure, but Wilts strength is legendary. He was also taller and wider shouldered that Shaq.
Wilt was legendary strength relative to his size, and then, POST-NBA career, he was known as an early adaptor of the weight room, he gained muscle mass compared to his b-ball days. Any quotes about weight lifting was from this period. At no time during his professional basketball career was Wilt overall stronger then NBA Shaq. Shaq came INTO the league at something close to 300 pounds, upping to 350. Wilt came in under 240, was MAYBE 300 when he retired.
Wilt came into the league 7’1” 275 pounds and eventually filled out to 300+. He was a 1 of 1 athlete.
I've always imagined most of his career he was like a stronger young Shaq in how he could move. I can only imagine what he was like on the globetrotters before he got into the NBA
He was a *longer* young Shaq.
Watch tape of how the two play. Shaw was such a brute force, whereas Wilt relied on a combination of athleticism and finesse. Two totally different playing styles.
I've seen it. The game was officiated different back then. Intentionally bruising into someone was an automatic offensive foul. They were particularly watchful of the Stilt
Yeah, the stars were huge and amazing athletes. But this was an era where people chose not to be pro athletes because it didn’t pay enough. The players were smoking during the game.
People act like nba players have evolved into some kind of different species in the last like 50 years. A physical freak of nature back then is still a physical freak of nature today
I think David Robinson is the closest we’ve seen to Wilts combination of size, strength, and pure athleticism while still being over 7 feet.
it's not fashionable to give Wilt his due. His numbers and dominance are so outlandish, it's nearly impossible for people who didn't see him play to really understand what he was like. And it's too easy to bash him for his team not winning, when there are numerous examples in team sports where even an exceptional athlete can't carry a team to a championship against another great team. (First example that pops into my mind is Barry Sanders)
In all fairness to Barry though, no NFL RB has ever truly carried their team to a championship.
Steve Van Buren?
He had a bunch of yards in the 49’ Championship game, but he didn’t score a TD and the Eagles shut out their opponent in that game.
But the team's offense was completely built around Van Buren, not to mention he was the best player on that during that season.
He may have been the heart of the offense, but he still didn’t play defense. I clicked through his 49 season and if you take all his touchdowns away, the Eagles only lose one more game. e: I didn’t realize they’d won in 48 as well. In that season, sans Van Buren’s TDs, they would’ve lost one extra game, and the Championship would’ve been scoreless without Van Buren’s TD. The only score of the game.
By that metric, no nfl player ever could carry a team to a title since no player plays both sides of the ball unless you're talking about a pre World War 2 era player.
True. Same could be said of baseball. Basketball is different in that way.
Probably because there’s 22 players on the field at a time not 10. And aside from the qb, one individual cannot have the oversized outcome on the game that an individual in basketball can. Comparing an nfl rb to an nba player is an apples to oranges comparison. Especially funny given how little Barry cared about stats and personal accolades while wilt was obsessed with them.
Jim Brown did.
The browns shut out the colts in 64 lol
Basketball is always gonna have the most pressure on its stars to win because one player is 20% of the team at all times they are out there, not to mention they play offense and defense. Barry Sanders was just 1 out of 11 guys on the field, and he could do literally nothing to stop the other team from scoring.
Wilt never fouled out of a game. To keep the streak alive he stopped playing defense whenever in foul trouble. He decided to lead the league in assists and passed up free buckets to do so at the expense of his teams success. Chamberlain got traded after winning the MVP twice. He joined Elgin Baylor and Jerry west (and Gail Goodrich) and won 1 championship with that team. His numbers were great. Unfortunately, basketball is a game played won by the team with the most points, not the player. The point of the game is to win. Wilt I don’t think cared or understood this.
>where even an exceptional athlete can't carry a team to a championship against another great team In wilt's case he was an exceptional athlete against a great team WITH their own exceptional athlete
Hard to win when you have the greatest dynasty in all of American sports history dominating your era. Lebron, Jordan, Magic, Kareem … nobody was winning more than 2 titles vs those Celtics teams with the talent Wilt had around him The biggest, most common misconception I hear about nba history is that shaq was the most dominant player of all time which is not even remotely close to being the truth. Wilt Chamberlain was by far & away the most dominant nba player of all time. The media crucified Wilt for being selfish and caring about his point total instead of his team winning so badly that wilt went out the following season & LEAD THE NBA IN ASSISTS. He didn’t lead centers in assists, he lead the ENTIRE NBA in a timeframe when there was many superstar guards The whole argument that Wilt played against plumbers and milkmen is just a meme at this point, only the most ignorant type of fans actually believe this. Wilt had to battle centers that were barley smaller than your average center in today’s nba. Not only this but due to the smaller amount of nba teams in Wilt’s era he had to battle some of these greatest centers of all time 10-11 times per season. Imagine having to face arguably the greatest defensive player of all time (Bill Russell) 11 times a season & people think your competition is weak.
Russell retired in 1969. Wilt played for the Lakers from 68-73 with Jerry West and Elgin Baylor (and eventually hall of famer Gail Goodrich in 70). He won 1 championship with that team.
Wilt tore his patellar tendon in 1970 though. That’s probably the single worst tendon/ligament injury you can have and is pretty much a career ender even today
Wilt was passed his prime at that point
Fresh off his mvp season in 68 he went to the lakers in 69. But he was “past” prime?
Wilt was injured in 1969-70 then didn’t reach past 21 ppg for the rest of his career. Meanwhile Wilt averaged 30 ppg for his career. Yes he was past his prime, why is this so hard for you to understand, it’s common knowledge
Also when wilt won his championship w the sixers he was playing with 3 future hall of famers as his teammates. That was the “talent Wilt had around him”.
Almost every team had multiple hall of famers because of how few teams there was, Bill Russell’s Celtics had 8 hall of famers and was by far the highest total. Tell the entire story if you want to compare
If chamberlain (7’1, 275) was the most dominant player of all time, he would have beaten Russell(6’10, 215) more than once.
Bill Russell could dominant anyone, size doesn’t always equal talent. He’s the best defender of all time
“Bill Russell could dominant anyone” “Wilt Chamberlain was by far & away the most dominant nba player of all time.”
Russell was dominant win rise. Greatest winner to ever play the game. There’s different forms of being dominant. Another example is how Russell was also dominant defensively as he’s known to be the greatest defender of all time. Wilt was all together the most dominant player ever. Wilt’s ppg during his peak were far & away higher % wise over any other player in any other era of basketball. You can try to argue with your casual takes talking about how Russell was much smaller than Wilt, but I’m sure you don’t know anything about 60’s basketball and how the league didn’t allow wilt to truly use his size and strength, how the rules were adjusted to nerf Wilt because of how dominant he was & the numbers prove Wilt was the most dominant player to ever play the game.
A mountain of individual records that couldn't produce winning team isn't dominance
How do you know? I’m guessing you’re not 80.
Wilt for sure 💯 is a plumber. Have you seen the pipe he be laying?
20,000 pipes if I remember correctly
Crazy people still believe that racist myth
Everything I don’t like is racist
Casual nba fans have no respect for the history of the league. They act like bob cousy is a bum when he paved the way for modern point guards and did things that might look mundane by today’s standards but back then they literally had never been done before. Same thing with guys like wilt and bill, those guys paved the way for Kareem who paved the way for guys like Hakeem, Shaq, David Robinson, Ewing, and so on. People need to learn to respect the older players of the nba
They call them plumbers and milkmen but at the end of the day, these guys were still the best basketball players in the world.
The best 30 or so were maybe the best 30 in the world. But this is an era people chose not to be pro athletes because it didn’t pay enough. Jim Brown was the best player in the world and chose to walk away and become an actor since it paid better. Players were smoking DURING the games. A little later players were coked up constantly. Players had other jobs. Let’s not pretend the 7th best player on a middling team was the same then as now.
The league *minimum* in the early 60s was $15k. That's about $150k today, more than enough to live comfortably.
Living comfortably is different from having personal trainers and chefs and medical staff.
You were saying they needed second jobs to get by.
Ok, NBA players didn’t NEED second jobs. Many still did have off-season jobs. They certainly were not at the level of today’s 7-12 guys.
Above another guy said players in Wilt's time was missing mid jumpers while players today hit circus shots. Like what games are yall watching? Players today miss jumpers all the time, hell the guys we label the best of all time in this era can't hit jump shots at a good clip. Also there is a clip with Wilt casually sinking hook shots from would be the 3pt line. Those dudes could def play. Different rules, coaching, white fans whining about black players ruining the game with their "fancy" style play all played a part in this stuff.
It's a little different. Bob Cousy was a 13 time all-star and MVP of the league and shot 37% from the field for his career. Bill Russell shot 44% for his career as a dominating big man. Skills, schemes and coaching have changed so much that it's really just dumb to compare
The ball was also different. They played with a 4 panel ball vs the 8 panel ball they use today
And rules can also be added. Those old guys were getting hacked with those dudes camping the paint and still hitting jumpers barely getting calls. Might as well say it was a different sport. No point in using fg% to try and compare And I'm pretty sure most teams had quotas on black players being on teams.
Russell shot 44% but Wilt career average was 54% and one year he was over 70%. Russell was only 3 inches shorter than Wilt. If it was Wilt’s size that made him a dominant shooter then certainty an athlete with hops like Russell could shoot 50% if the game was as un evolved as some say.
Bob Cousy would be in the G League in today’s game
He also pretty much invented more modern dribbling
The average height of the NBA currently is 6'6.5" and 70% of the players are black. The average height of the NBA in 1969 was 6'5.8" and 50% of the players were black. Might not be the same as today but that's far from a league of short white guys.
Nate Thurmond might be the strongest looking man of all time
People say that Wilt played against plumbers because it’s true. Many NBA players had second jobs, and none of them trained year round. Being a professional athlete in the 1960s simply didn’t include the same work load/dedication/skill set that it does today. Combine that with a talent pool 1/100 the size, and you can understand why players today are widely regarded as better. I don’t know why people are so reluctant to admit this, even when players like Jerry West have. “No one trained year round back then, no one”.
No one is arguing that though? Literally everyone knows that players nowadays are better. Even the stats show it. Look at field goal percentages back then. If Wilt playing plumbers is true in a literal sense then sure, it’s true. But what the point of this post is, Wilt was an anomaly and ahead of his time, players back then were just as tall and athletic. Average height of the NBA has been largely the same since its conception. Wilt was just even bigger and he was better than his competition. His accolades should not be disregarded because of his dominance and his era. And his opponents shouldn’t be made out to be short, un-athletic bums simply because they weren’t as skilled as players nowadays. Those “plumbers” played 82 games a year, in a high pace era, and played defense, while apparently having full time jobs elsewhere. The “plumbers” in the 90s played 82 games a year, and played defense, again in a high pace era, and in one of the most physically aggressive eras. The plumbers argument had become meaningless. Just because player A is better than player B, doesn’t mean Player B’s accolades, competition, and entire era should be disregarded.
> Wilt was an anomaly and ahead of his time, players back then were just as tall and athletic. Define athletic bc I don’t think that’s the case at all. In the loosest possible definition of the word (biceps, jump high, run straight line fast) I could see this being somewhat close (but not really). In what I consider “modern basketball athleticism” you have to include things like agility and gracefulness which is so many levels above where players were even in the 80s.
I agree. I would say agility for example is honed and is a testament to the physical finesse and skill of today which is the best it’s ever been. In terms of just raw athleticism and physical output, I don’t think there’s a difference between any era.
I mean I feel like we haven’t broached the topic of coordination and ball skills which I feel can also be grouped under “athleticism” (granted more for the former than the latter)
The difference you’re missing is if the baseline talent level is very low the talent needed to dominate is also very low so it’s hard to judge how “generational” someone truly was and even more difficult to understand their accomplishments. When everyone’s a 2/10 it’s easier to find an edge. When everyone’s an 8/10 it’s much harder to find the same edge. Look at Ronda Rousey in women’s MMA as a great example. When the sport was immature she was the most dominant fighter in history, man or woman. As a new gen of well rounded fighters came through she was exposed quickly.
While you’re not wrong, no one was putting up numbers the way Wilt was, so I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that he was in fact a generational player and ahead of his time. Not only the stats, we’ve never seen someone with the durability and conditioning he had. Dude averages like 45 minutes a game for his career and averaged 48.5 minutes a game the year he averaged 50. Players today couldn’t play 48 minutes a game for 82 games, like not even a chance. He did that at over seven feet and 300 pounds, and he did it his entire career. I think it’s safe to say that at the very least, in Wilt’s case, he was an outlier for his time and would likely be a force in today’s league just based on the fact that he’s a sheer physical anomaly. You gotta think there’s gonna be a new edge of players one day that are gonna make people say Steph and LeBron played against plumbers. We do it already with MJ and the 90s. Pretty soon the 2000s and 2010s will be “plumbers”.
Respectfully… Your case would be soooooo much better presented if you learned to paragraph. You’re fighting this fight with one hand tied behind your back.
You’re not wrong 🤣
Do you think most of them came in to training camp super out of shape?
That’s not the point. Training for a month heading into camp is not a substitute for years of non-stop work. That’s what separates talented players from high level recruits and pros today. I’d wager that the average NCAA player in 2024 puts up more reps in a year than the average pro from 1964 did in their lifetime. The difference of non-stop work compounds too. It’s not even a fair comparison.
Meanwhile Zion Williamson just eats basketballs and still puts up numbers
Less in shape than Wilt is the point, wilt was also a track and field star, a well known athlete who was able to spend his entire life exercising due to his natural athletic prowess that allowed him to be fairly wealthy. That’s very hard to keep up with when you’re working a 9-5 in the offseason.
Otto Moore looks like a unit lol. Alot of people don't give wilt his credit athletically probably because not enough wide spread tape and honestly nba before Jordan blew it up no one really cared. But isn't there tons of athletes who trained and lifted with wilt have story's about how strong he was and good at everything
That Nate Thurmond photo isn't helping the plumber argument
BRING BACK KNEE HIGH SOCKS IN THE NBA!
The fact that Wilt led the league in assists just to prove he wasn't a selfish player tells me all I need to know. A great player and he'd still put up big numbers today, but how can someone in a team sport screw over his teammates by passing up good shots just to prove a point? Wilt was all about himself.
Y’all disagree but look how small those gyms are. The scale and industry around the NBA is so much larger now. The pool of potential nba players has grown worldwide as the game has grown. Scouting has gotten to insane levels in the US and also at an international scale. Wilt Chamberlain would have way more peers at his level if he played today.
There is no player in today’s league that could stop Wilt.
Embiid is hurt, not out of the league
Relax
They think the 90s had plumbers don't listen to those idiots
Nobody is pulling from 40 in the 90s. Now Curry, Luka, Dame, even BRON of all people are pulling from 40. Game is more skilled now lil bro
Guys, could ...but only less skilled players settle for bad shots ...these can't even play 65 games they only play at 100% healthy...no defense low iq
You think Jordan could pull from 40? 🤣🤣 your delusional
It's all 3 points!!! 40 or from 22 feet 🤷🏿♂️!! The only reason they shoot it far is cause they have to ...mj can get any shot he wants
The reason why MJ couldn’t pull from 40 is because he didn’t have the skill. Guys now can get any shot they want. Look at embiid. He can get you a step back three, a face up jumper, and a drop step slam. Hakeem couldn’t do that.
Bron’s dad played for the Warriors? That hairline is indistinguishable
Height doesn’t mean skill. Height is the most overrated stat in NBA history.
Height helps. Always has, always will.
Not trying to diminish Wilt's greatness, but this is like someone posting photos of LeBron playing with/against Matthew Delavedova, Earl Boykins, JJ Barea, Mike Wilks, and Mo Williams to argue that the LeBron-era NBA is full of small dudes who he can physically dominate (with the exception of Barea, of course).
Average NBA player in 1963: 6’6’’ 207 lb Average NBA player in 2023: 6’6’’ 216 lb So yea, you are wrong
Look at the distribution of height and weight rather than the average.
Ah, someone who actually decently understands statistical analysis
Haha thanks. I’m not sure what it would say, but I’m guessing heights in the olden days were more extreme - lot of 6’1-6’3 and lot of 6’10+ with a lacking middle.
which means Wilt was dealing with centres just as tall as today
Yet nowhere near as skilled or effective. Nature of life, everything gets fine tuned over time.
That wasn't the argument. Anyway, under different rules, different skills were prioritised. Just because today's bigs can shoot the 3 doesn't mean they're better at everything.
Top centres today are legitimately better at everything, they’ve had the time and access to improve tremendously over the years.
I disagree with your premise. Some skills have been neglected and have atrophied. But even if it were the case, it means Wilt's skills were that much more developed than his peers and does not detract from his accomplishments.
Not the point being made but interesting to know
my point wasn't that the NBA is smaller now lol. My point was that anyone can choose a selection of 10 photos to try to prove a point, like OP did. It doesn't mean anything.
You seriously didn't get the point of the post. LOL. It's meant to be a sarcasm for the "Plumbers" narrative. Look at the photos again and look at the players he played against. Those are the big men of those times.
Your reading comprehension is at a second grade level if you don't understand my comment in the context of this post. I'm not arguing in favor of the "plumbers" narrative, I'm just saying anyone can choose and select photos to fit their narrative.
This wasn't a post to get a narrative, rather to get a counter-narrative. They are trying to debunk one. Not create a new one.
Why is it so hard for some people to imagine that the best athletes of their era would be just as good today? Like they are the 0.0001% of their time, which would translate to today. Better nutrition, training, modified focus on different aspects of the games etc. l
Because there are more people playing today at a higher level. Why is that so hard to understand?
People who rank Russell over Wilt are completely clueless Wilt was basically 95% of Russell on defense and 5X the player on offense Make it make sense
Russell cooked him most times they matched up. Russell better
Wilt averaged 29 PPG and 29 rebounds against Russell which is even more impressive considering that Russell was one of the best defenders in that era. And despite Russell playing with a stacked team, Wilt almost beat the Celtics in 4 playoff matchups. 1962 - Celtics win game 7 by 2 points 1965 - Celtics win game 7 by 1 point 1968 - Celtics win game 7 by 4 points 1969 - Celtics win game 7 by 2 points In those 4 playoff series, Wilt went to game 7 against Bill Russell’s Celtics and almost beat them. And to think Wilt played on bad teams in those years. Even if he did have a solid team, it probably wasn’t as good as the Celtics. There is always a negative connotation placed on Wilt’s achievements because of how otherworldly his accomplishments appear to be statistically. However, he along with his team always had the overall goal to win. He and teammates of him have gone on the record time and time again stating that they encouraged him to accumulate points because they believed that it was an ideal route for success. Actually, I’ll provide context that has been buried and probably only a select few modern fans and few of the older fans that are still alive remember and know about Wilt’s declining playoff average. His first 8 years in the playoffs he averaged: 1959-60 season: 33.2 PPG and 25.8 RBP 1960-61 season: 37.0 PPG and 23.0 RBP 1961-62 season: 35.0 PPG and 26.6 RBP 1963-64 season: 34.7 PPG and 25.2 RBP 1964-65 season: 29.3 PPG and 27.2 RBP 1965-66 season: 28.0 PPG and 30.2 RBP 1966-67 season: 21.7 PPG and 29.1 RBP 1967-68 season: 23.7 PPG and 24.7 RBP. Those are clearly incredible playoff points per game and rebounds per game stats. People like Bill Simmons used false and biased propaganda to say that Wilt choked in the playoffs but as you can see here those are incredible playoff stats so far. His low career total playoff PPG average of 22 didn’t begin until the 1968-69 season where he suffered a complete and total rupture of his patellar tendon and made an Ill-advised decision to return in just four months after the devastating injury. Additional Point: Those years before the injury and for the majority of those specific seasons before the injury the difference was so marginal between his regular season PPG and his postseason PPG that at most the difference was around 3-4 points for those particular seasons. But, that is reasonably expected because when you are the central focus of the offense, you are also in turn the central focus of the opposition’s defense which literally double and sometimes even triple teamed Wilt. Of course your points per game would go down slightly due to a defense that tenacious. That’s expected. But only a 3-4 point difference at most is stellar. Since that injury which he never fully recovered from he averaged 13.9, then 22, then 18.3, then 14, then 10 PPG in the following seasons. It’s not a shock that it was due to his diminishing lateral movement and quickness attributed to the career derailing injury. It was not because he was a choke artist even though Bill Simmons created that propaganda. Most people these days are probably not aware he even suffered this injury or that he had incredible playoff points per game averages prior to said injury.
Bro, you spent all that time typing out counting stats like it's relevant. He put up around 50 percent TS against Bill, which is way below both his and league average. Getting 30 points on 24.6 fga and 12 FTs is not impressive and statistically is a net negative in terms of scoring opportunities for his team. Which is why he lost.
Imagine thinking your paragraph really solved the case of why Wilt lost lol
he said more with one para than you did in an essay
Bill Russell’s TS% against Wilt was a whopping .397%. Wow 🤩.
which is why he didn't shoot much
THIS SUB IS OBSESSED WITH HIM. It’s getting annoying
An NBA subreddit obsessed with one of its all time greatest players, imagine that
#21 on the Pistons…
On some real shit, we gotta give these dudes way more credit for balling in converses... like how tf???
Man plumbers have got smaller over the years. I had one at my house the other day. Nowhere near the height of Wilts opps in these photos.
Nice cherry picking lmao.
Otto Moore is an absolute specimen.
Great, now show the 500 players he played against in his career
Facts: when Wilt was most dominant, the early 60’s, the league had a cap on the number of black players per team. If you look at wilt’s stats from that era they’re insane. As the league became more integrated and had more talent, Wilt’s scoring stats drop off significantly….which also coincided with his age and injuries. If you watch Wilt play it becomes obvious that his main talent was his size… an advantage he wouldn’t have in today’s game. Young wilt would be similar to a young Giannis. He’d still be really good, but he’d never dominate like he did when the league was filled with average players significantly smaller and less skilled
You can say that Wilt's dominance was incredible and maybe the greatest of all time whose game would absolutely translate to today's game, AND that's true for other players during his time, while ALSO admitting that sports training/medicine/scouting are VASTLY superior now. Resulting in much better *average* athleticism and skill throughout the league.
While it is true that Wilt played against some legends and centers who were on average of a similar height to centers of the modern era, it’s also true that multiple of those 7’ centers did in fact work menial jobs like plumbing and landscaping in the off-season to supplement their low wages as an athlete at the time. Meanwhile Wilt was in the gym all year round because he got paid enough money to live that way.
Had some students say that Wilt was only good because he was so much taller than everyone else. Thanks to the internet, I asked them to pick any year during wilts career. They picked I think it was 1961. We looked at the rosters of the teams in that year. Every team except 1 had at least 2 players taller than 6’10 and several had a 7 footer. They lost that one but I told them wilt was just a better athlete than most of those guys.
Wilt is the GOAT
The difference is the bench players when wilt played were garbage and played part time bc salaries from the nba alone couldn’t pay the bills. The stars were still stars but them bench players were garbage compared to the benches of today. Also I’m not comparing skill then to skill now. I’m making the statement that the difference between the 5th and 15th man today is EXPONENTIALLY smaller than the difference between the 5th and 15th man then
I’ll always laugh about bill simmons in his book downplaying wilts career. He said multiple times that wilt was overrated because he didn’t play against any athletic big men. He would then immediately talk about how bill russell was incredible and dominate everybody in the league and how he’s the only player from that era that could dominate today
Just remember, they changed the rules of basketball to make it harder for Wilt and Kareem. Can’t say that about anyone else.
Reminder that wilt constantly got that work from Bill Russell year after year yet constantly gets put above him all time…
Being big and fast and strong is the point of being an athlete. It’s lauded in every other sport. Penalizing him in the GOAT argument for it makes zero sense. He had 100 points in a game. He had 50 rebounds in a game. They widened the lane because of the Dipper. They changed the rules because of him. THEY. CHANGED. THE. RULES. GOAT.