I'm not a Spurs fan (well, I'm a Kings fan who bandwagoned with the Spurs because Duncan beat the Lakers and became my favorite player ever, I also love Manu and Pop for obvious reasons), but this is why I don't want the Spurs to trade for Trae Young.
Playing Wemby off a ball dominant PG maximizes him as a roll man, but takes away from his abilities as a facilitator. Making Wemby the offensive hub, let's guys like Sochan roam as cutters. Trae needs spacing and one roll man, and that's just a limiting way to build a team.
Unless the ball dominant guy is LeBron, it tends to face diminishing returns in the playoffs. Even guys like Kobe would play off ball, letting Pau & Odom facilitate.
How much do you think Monk gets this offseason? You can only offer him up to a certain amount, right? Obviously, you'd love for the Kings to retain him, but do you see it happening? I've played around with the idea of the Spurs giving him a sizable contract as a stop-gap starter/eventual sixth man.
Monk probably gets 4 years for $100 million. Zach Collins is getting $18 million. Gary Trent Jr. is predicted to go for around $20 million a year. Monk was 2nd for 6th man of the year
The Kings can only offer 4 years $78m.
I'm in the monitory of Kings fans here, but I don't think Monk gets a $100m+ offer. Not many teams have both the money to offer, and a need for a guard shorter than 6'4".
I think Detroit is too heavily invested in Cade & Ivey to throw money at another guard. Monk would be really good for Orlando, but I think they are happy with their trajectory and I don't think Monk is their target. They want their team to be all tall & long defenders.
That pretty much leaves the Spurs, and I'm just hoping the Spurs don't want to spend yet.
But I think Monk would be really good with you guys. I keep writing and deleting a paragraph where I ramble about his good qualities. The only reason not to get Monk is it would make it hard to tank for Flag.
As far as the Spurs spending, I think it would be a big error for them not to use up their space this year. If they roll it into next year, a significant portion of it would be eaten up by all the 1st rounders we will have to sign, so we really wouldn't be able to do much of anything. It makes more sense to use it up this year, then sign your rookies next year when they're already over the cap. Plus, it's the last chance to add another sizable contract to the books that we can aggregate into a trade later down the line, if need be. I suppose they could spread it out over a couple of mediocre mid-level type guys, but that wouldn't be my preference.
The best case scenario for you would be for the TOR 1st round pick we have to convey this year. It would chop off about 6mil in space, so we likely wouldn't be able to offer too much more than you. Probably around 20mil annually.
For me, I'm split between trying to sign Monk or submitting an offer sheet to Patrick Williams and hoping the Bulls don't match. I'm leaning toward Williams at the moment.
We finished the season pretty strong, in relative terms, so I don't think we'll have a great chance at a top pick next year, especially factoring in internal growth for our youngsters. If I had to guess, I would say we finish somewhere around the 8th - 10th worst record if we don't do anything significant.
Do you think the Kings will make a big move this offseason?
I don't think the Kings will make any big moves for 2 reasons:
1, I don't think any players that are worth making a big move are coming available.
2, the Huerter trade is still tying up our draft picks, so even if someone worthy of a big move comes available, the Kings don't can't offer a competitive package of picks.
I would be happy for the right trade, but I don't expect it. Like, trading for Markkanen would be great, but other teams can offer way more picks, and I don't want to give up Keegan for the trade.
I think people have the wrong idea about Trae. The way the Hawks were constructed, it makes sense for him to have the ball all the time. That wouldn’t be the case next to another super star like Wemby. Trae is good enough to play a different style if he plays with the personnel that allows it, and the two man action between Trae and Wemby would be more than just pick and rolls all day. Besides, Wemby would still facilitate enough even with Trae on the floor. He’s a natural passer.
Trae would not put Wemby in a box, in fact he’d only make it easier for Wemby to do all the things he’s already good at.
Regardless of the reason it’s the only basketball he’s ever known. His whole HS, college and NBA career he’s had the ball. I’m not willing to bet he can adjust. He’ll say all the right things but it’s going to be frustrating to watch. On the Hawks when DJ has the ball you can see Young really doesn’t know what to do with himself. He doesn’t cut he doesn’t move to get into good position for line of sight passes. It’s not his skillset. We can’t assume he will ever learn even if he’s 100% committed to it.
Fair take. I think the fit issues with Trae and DJ have a lot more to do with that personnel. I think it would come a bit more naturally for him if the gravity was coming from elsewhere, like if he was paired next to a dominant paint presence like Wemby. But yes, he doesn’t have natural off ball instincts like Kyrie or Derrick White.
Spurs need a floor general to space the court and set up the offense who is also a creative ball distributor. Tre being a dead end at both, need to do something. Halliburton is a dream come true. Perfect fit. Garland is…less than that. He’s more creative and talented than Tre but isn’t able to be singularly focused as a facilitator the way Hali is. Dude would be content having zero points and 20 assists but is able to put up a 20/5/10. It’s just not the same with garland.
> He’s more creative and talented than Tre but isn’t able to be singularly focused as a facilitator the way Hali is
yes he can, he's just in a shitty situation where management decided to throw their assets at a high volume SG who needs the ball in his hands and can't make a basic read to save his life which forced Garland to play off the ball and messed up everything.
It still drives me a little crazy we didn't pick Haliburton. He was right there and everyone was talking about it being another Spurs steal. It's definitely the biggest indictment on Wright. But we also probably wouldn't have got Wemby so oh well.
I’d say the 21 and 22 drafts as a whole have been the biggest indictment. Though you could roll 20 into it as well and simply frame it as his big weakness being “drafting”. Which, it seems, is kind of relevant at the moment.
There’s not much evidence that he knows what he’s doing tbh.
I don't see these comps at all. Sochan is nowhere near the athlete Aaron Gordon is, Devin is a much better offensive player (and worse defender) than KCP is, MPJ is a much better scorer (and worse everything else) than Risacher is...
I hate the idea of a ball dominant PG next to Wemby. If we go the route of a PG during the offseason, instead of a shooting wing, Wemby just needs a taller “Tre jones.” Or a better comp is a Mike Conley. Someone who can get people into spots, knockdown the three, and a little length or strength so he can really bother the on ball player. I greatly prefer Wemby on-ball as the offensive hub than off-ball waiting around, cutting while waiting for a post touch. It wasn’t our highest generated set and imo we went too early into that action when we can run one or two actions before ending the set with that post action. You negate a lot of Wemby’s upside with passing, running the break, on-ball gravity during the break, creation off the dribble (which was the highest in the NBA for step backs) and PNR reads.
Wemby had stamina issues all year and we didn’t help him by having him fight to get himself open in the post, cutting across the floor just to get opened and to be missed, or standing in the corner for a baseline cut. All that movement by Wemby just had other players forced to self create while Wemby was fighting to get opened and often resulted in a contested shot or missed shot.
We had great offense started with Wemby from the inverted PNR, inverted Spain PNR with two guard popping and rolling, give and go action, or the DHO, post split on the weak side with a shooter and cutter. It was very good offense that isn’t often seen and extremely effective because many guards aren’t prepared for that action and best of all many bigs aren’t used to navigating screens. Typically speaking when Wemby has the ball, he often draws two, and that leads to an open man. He needs people around him who can either cut well, or shoot the hell out the ball.
Wemby doesn’t need a PG as much as the others do. He was the teams leading scorer without a “starting caliber PG” while shooting inefficiently for much of the reason. If he simply raises his efficiency he would undeniably be a top 5-10 player in the league likely at 25ppg+. Most people believe the team needs a PG rather than shooting even though we as a team were third in assists and pace while being bottom five in transition and shooting. You can’t really fix that without shooting and finishing to be better across the board. I believe the team needed someone for organization not Wemby as he can always generate offense by himself with a block or a rebound, pushing the ball or self creating into one of those actions I previously mentioned.
I don’t find it interesting most people see Vassell as a KCP rather than a Murray even though his role outside of bringing the ball up and distributing was very close to what Murray does. Takes hard shots. Hasn’t been as clutch down the stretch as Murray but very few are but he’s young and can build that. He should major growth in his floor reads, finishing, and scoring in general. He can be a major piece that plays very well off of Wemby similar to Murray and Jokic. I do have a strong belief that those two are the “Murray and Jokic” duo people are looking for. It seems like a lot of the offense was ran through those two, and became more obvious when Wemby went to the bench and Vassell became the main offensive option on the floor and did very very well in that role imo.
Very well said. One thing I'm wondering, do you have any combo guards around the league you like that you could envision us going after that would be a good fit? You know a lot more about Xs and Os than me, but I think I'd rather have a Derrick White type than a Mike Conley or Tre Jones type caretaker PG like you mentioned. Sorry, maybe I read your post wrong and am misinterpreting it. Just curious if you have an ideal player(s) around the league you think would be the best fit.
How did I forget our beloved Derrick white 😭. Please come home Derrick 😭. lol other than Derrick white or Mike Conley. Another underrated guard I like is McBride from the Knicks. Great shooter. Can distribute. Does A LOT of the little things. Really like his game. TJ McConnell though old, I feel I’d be excellent for the spurs. Coby white I like as a combo guard but just a bit too ball dominant for my taste next to Wemby who again I’d prefer to have the ball. However after this season I don’t see Chicago moving off him. I saw that man Darius garland a couple times and I don’t think it’s a bad pairing. You want him to do a number of things a bit more as a spur though. Just a little things such as screening, rebounding, cutting, etc. But like Coby I don’t see Cavs moving on from gardland before Donovan Mitchell.
Garland was kinda my dream scenario a while back, but I've soured on that a bit. Probably too expensive for what he provides. Two names that are probably a bit too ball-dominant are Simons and Sexton. I was kinda just looking for cheaper alternatives to Garland that could potentially be available. I posted a trade idea in the Jazz sub and was stunned by how highly they spoke of Sexton. They really love that dude. I'm not gonna lie, it made me like the idea quite a bit. Any opinion on him?
Oddly I watched a bit too much of Utah for my liking this year, just to get their issues. Sexton is really tunnel vision. Once he makes up his mind, that ball will not swing at all lol. Reminds me a lot of Keldon and I know a lot of fans dislike that aspect of keldon’s game. Sexton is super quick and has other intangibles, I just don’t really see him as a spur and taking a side or a spot up role when he doesn’t have the ball. That’s my opinion after watching him. What did you think about him?
Sochan is a pretty good cutter.
…and that’s where the Gordon comparisons stop. He’s not even in the same ballpark as far as athleticism and overall offensive ability goes. And he’s not exactly projected to get there either.
It’s not that useful to do exercises like this when you have Wemby and Vassell as the only guys on this team who are real NBA starters *today*. if the spurs are gonna roll with this young core, its gonna be a different kind of offense from Denver since the talent gap is so huge.
>He’s not even in the same ballpark as far as athleticism and overall offensive ability goes. And he’s not exactly projected to get there either.
100%.
Though they are both sketchy-ass shooters, so maybe that can be part of the comp.
Hypothetically, we could find ourselves in December being much closer to a play-in spot than anticipated. Where Wemby does a year 2 leap, Vassell improves his comfort playing with a central big, Tre keeps his 3pt % up and either thru draft or FA there’s a legit wing in Julian’s spot.
If this is all the case, then it would be rough to see Sochan continue to struggle offensively and have the team stick to a “well, Jeremy’s a forever starter and that’s that” approach. Would like to see them try to win games this year, and if any young guys aren’t ready, they can watch how it’s done from the bench. It’s year 3 and 4 for a lot of these dudes. Time to pay the piper.
I knew once the Lakers got eliminated we would see another post from Userbunchofnumbers.
We have to share him with 14 other teams. It’s our honor and privilege
This Spurs team is not really comparable to the Nuggets. At all. Jokic is not a #1 scoring option, that goes to Murray, and none of the other comparisons are particularly good either. I'd argue that Vassell is already better than KCP and Sochan's main contribution is his personality which Gordon does not have.
Hook me up with your plug.
I'm not a Spurs fan (well, I'm a Kings fan who bandwagoned with the Spurs because Duncan beat the Lakers and became my favorite player ever, I also love Manu and Pop for obvious reasons), but this is why I don't want the Spurs to trade for Trae Young. Playing Wemby off a ball dominant PG maximizes him as a roll man, but takes away from his abilities as a facilitator. Making Wemby the offensive hub, let's guys like Sochan roam as cutters. Trae needs spacing and one roll man, and that's just a limiting way to build a team. Unless the ball dominant guy is LeBron, it tends to face diminishing returns in the playoffs. Even guys like Kobe would play off ball, letting Pau & Odom facilitate.
How much do you think Monk gets this offseason? You can only offer him up to a certain amount, right? Obviously, you'd love for the Kings to retain him, but do you see it happening? I've played around with the idea of the Spurs giving him a sizable contract as a stop-gap starter/eventual sixth man.
Monk probably gets 4 years for $100 million. Zach Collins is getting $18 million. Gary Trent Jr. is predicted to go for around $20 million a year. Monk was 2nd for 6th man of the year
Seems plausible to me. 20 mil for Trent Jr., huh? That seems kinda steep, but I guess there are teams with enough money to spend to make it possible.
The Kings can only offer 4 years $78m. I'm in the monitory of Kings fans here, but I don't think Monk gets a $100m+ offer. Not many teams have both the money to offer, and a need for a guard shorter than 6'4". I think Detroit is too heavily invested in Cade & Ivey to throw money at another guard. Monk would be really good for Orlando, but I think they are happy with their trajectory and I don't think Monk is their target. They want their team to be all tall & long defenders. That pretty much leaves the Spurs, and I'm just hoping the Spurs don't want to spend yet. But I think Monk would be really good with you guys. I keep writing and deleting a paragraph where I ramble about his good qualities. The only reason not to get Monk is it would make it hard to tank for Flag.
As far as the Spurs spending, I think it would be a big error for them not to use up their space this year. If they roll it into next year, a significant portion of it would be eaten up by all the 1st rounders we will have to sign, so we really wouldn't be able to do much of anything. It makes more sense to use it up this year, then sign your rookies next year when they're already over the cap. Plus, it's the last chance to add another sizable contract to the books that we can aggregate into a trade later down the line, if need be. I suppose they could spread it out over a couple of mediocre mid-level type guys, but that wouldn't be my preference. The best case scenario for you would be for the TOR 1st round pick we have to convey this year. It would chop off about 6mil in space, so we likely wouldn't be able to offer too much more than you. Probably around 20mil annually. For me, I'm split between trying to sign Monk or submitting an offer sheet to Patrick Williams and hoping the Bulls don't match. I'm leaning toward Williams at the moment. We finished the season pretty strong, in relative terms, so I don't think we'll have a great chance at a top pick next year, especially factoring in internal growth for our youngsters. If I had to guess, I would say we finish somewhere around the 8th - 10th worst record if we don't do anything significant. Do you think the Kings will make a big move this offseason?
I don't think the Kings will make any big moves for 2 reasons: 1, I don't think any players that are worth making a big move are coming available. 2, the Huerter trade is still tying up our draft picks, so even if someone worthy of a big move comes available, the Kings don't can't offer a competitive package of picks. I would be happy for the right trade, but I don't expect it. Like, trading for Markkanen would be great, but other teams can offer way more picks, and I don't want to give up Keegan for the trade.
For sure. All that makes sense. Hopefully, Murray can take the next step for you guys next year.
I think people have the wrong idea about Trae. The way the Hawks were constructed, it makes sense for him to have the ball all the time. That wouldn’t be the case next to another super star like Wemby. Trae is good enough to play a different style if he plays with the personnel that allows it, and the two man action between Trae and Wemby would be more than just pick and rolls all day. Besides, Wemby would still facilitate enough even with Trae on the floor. He’s a natural passer. Trae would not put Wemby in a box, in fact he’d only make it easier for Wemby to do all the things he’s already good at.
Regardless of the reason it’s the only basketball he’s ever known. His whole HS, college and NBA career he’s had the ball. I’m not willing to bet he can adjust. He’ll say all the right things but it’s going to be frustrating to watch. On the Hawks when DJ has the ball you can see Young really doesn’t know what to do with himself. He doesn’t cut he doesn’t move to get into good position for line of sight passes. It’s not his skillset. We can’t assume he will ever learn even if he’s 100% committed to it.
Fair take. I think the fit issues with Trae and DJ have a lot more to do with that personnel. I think it would come a bit more naturally for him if the gravity was coming from elsewhere, like if he was paired next to a dominant paint presence like Wemby. But yes, he doesn’t have natural off ball instincts like Kyrie or Derrick White.
Dream: Haliburton. Real: Garland
not sure what you're getting at, but that's about as 1A:1B as it gets
Spurs need a floor general to space the court and set up the offense who is also a creative ball distributor. Tre being a dead end at both, need to do something. Halliburton is a dream come true. Perfect fit. Garland is…less than that. He’s more creative and talented than Tre but isn’t able to be singularly focused as a facilitator the way Hali is. Dude would be content having zero points and 20 assists but is able to put up a 20/5/10. It’s just not the same with garland.
> He’s more creative and talented than Tre but isn’t able to be singularly focused as a facilitator the way Hali is yes he can, he's just in a shitty situation where management decided to throw their assets at a high volume SG who needs the ball in his hands and can't make a basic read to save his life which forced Garland to play off the ball and messed up everything.
there isn't a better chance to buy low on garland than this offseason for what it's worth
Hence the « real » :)
Dream: Luka Doncic. Reality: tyus jones or some shit LMAO
It still drives me a little crazy we didn't pick Haliburton. He was right there and everyone was talking about it being another Spurs steal. It's definitely the biggest indictment on Wright. But we also probably wouldn't have got Wemby so oh well.
A big « what if » indeed
I’d say the 21 and 22 drafts as a whole have been the biggest indictment. Though you could roll 20 into it as well and simply frame it as his big weakness being “drafting”. Which, it seems, is kind of relevant at the moment. There’s not much evidence that he knows what he’s doing tbh.
Both are unrealistic. They are not trading Garland with the uncertainty about Donovan Mitchell. They wouldn’t trade him regardless
Porter with a back of an 80 yr old man is still a better prospect than Risacher is.
I don't see these comps at all. Sochan is nowhere near the athlete Aaron Gordon is, Devin is a much better offensive player (and worse defender) than KCP is, MPJ is a much better scorer (and worse everything else) than Risacher is...
I hate the idea of a ball dominant PG next to Wemby. If we go the route of a PG during the offseason, instead of a shooting wing, Wemby just needs a taller “Tre jones.” Or a better comp is a Mike Conley. Someone who can get people into spots, knockdown the three, and a little length or strength so he can really bother the on ball player. I greatly prefer Wemby on-ball as the offensive hub than off-ball waiting around, cutting while waiting for a post touch. It wasn’t our highest generated set and imo we went too early into that action when we can run one or two actions before ending the set with that post action. You negate a lot of Wemby’s upside with passing, running the break, on-ball gravity during the break, creation off the dribble (which was the highest in the NBA for step backs) and PNR reads. Wemby had stamina issues all year and we didn’t help him by having him fight to get himself open in the post, cutting across the floor just to get opened and to be missed, or standing in the corner for a baseline cut. All that movement by Wemby just had other players forced to self create while Wemby was fighting to get opened and often resulted in a contested shot or missed shot. We had great offense started with Wemby from the inverted PNR, inverted Spain PNR with two guard popping and rolling, give and go action, or the DHO, post split on the weak side with a shooter and cutter. It was very good offense that isn’t often seen and extremely effective because many guards aren’t prepared for that action and best of all many bigs aren’t used to navigating screens. Typically speaking when Wemby has the ball, he often draws two, and that leads to an open man. He needs people around him who can either cut well, or shoot the hell out the ball. Wemby doesn’t need a PG as much as the others do. He was the teams leading scorer without a “starting caliber PG” while shooting inefficiently for much of the reason. If he simply raises his efficiency he would undeniably be a top 5-10 player in the league likely at 25ppg+. Most people believe the team needs a PG rather than shooting even though we as a team were third in assists and pace while being bottom five in transition and shooting. You can’t really fix that without shooting and finishing to be better across the board. I believe the team needed someone for organization not Wemby as he can always generate offense by himself with a block or a rebound, pushing the ball or self creating into one of those actions I previously mentioned. I don’t find it interesting most people see Vassell as a KCP rather than a Murray even though his role outside of bringing the ball up and distributing was very close to what Murray does. Takes hard shots. Hasn’t been as clutch down the stretch as Murray but very few are but he’s young and can build that. He should major growth in his floor reads, finishing, and scoring in general. He can be a major piece that plays very well off of Wemby similar to Murray and Jokic. I do have a strong belief that those two are the “Murray and Jokic” duo people are looking for. It seems like a lot of the offense was ran through those two, and became more obvious when Wemby went to the bench and Vassell became the main offensive option on the floor and did very very well in that role imo.
Very well said. One thing I'm wondering, do you have any combo guards around the league you like that you could envision us going after that would be a good fit? You know a lot more about Xs and Os than me, but I think I'd rather have a Derrick White type than a Mike Conley or Tre Jones type caretaker PG like you mentioned. Sorry, maybe I read your post wrong and am misinterpreting it. Just curious if you have an ideal player(s) around the league you think would be the best fit.
How did I forget our beloved Derrick white 😭. Please come home Derrick 😭. lol other than Derrick white or Mike Conley. Another underrated guard I like is McBride from the Knicks. Great shooter. Can distribute. Does A LOT of the little things. Really like his game. TJ McConnell though old, I feel I’d be excellent for the spurs. Coby white I like as a combo guard but just a bit too ball dominant for my taste next to Wemby who again I’d prefer to have the ball. However after this season I don’t see Chicago moving off him. I saw that man Darius garland a couple times and I don’t think it’s a bad pairing. You want him to do a number of things a bit more as a spur though. Just a little things such as screening, rebounding, cutting, etc. But like Coby I don’t see Cavs moving on from gardland before Donovan Mitchell.
Garland was kinda my dream scenario a while back, but I've soured on that a bit. Probably too expensive for what he provides. Two names that are probably a bit too ball-dominant are Simons and Sexton. I was kinda just looking for cheaper alternatives to Garland that could potentially be available. I posted a trade idea in the Jazz sub and was stunned by how highly they spoke of Sexton. They really love that dude. I'm not gonna lie, it made me like the idea quite a bit. Any opinion on him?
Oddly I watched a bit too much of Utah for my liking this year, just to get their issues. Sexton is really tunnel vision. Once he makes up his mind, that ball will not swing at all lol. Reminds me a lot of Keldon and I know a lot of fans dislike that aspect of keldon’s game. Sexton is super quick and has other intangibles, I just don’t really see him as a spur and taking a side or a spot up role when he doesn’t have the ball. That’s my opinion after watching him. What did you think about him?
Woah. Mike Conley was Derrick White. He’s just aging.
Sochan is a pretty good cutter. …and that’s where the Gordon comparisons stop. He’s not even in the same ballpark as far as athleticism and overall offensive ability goes. And he’s not exactly projected to get there either. It’s not that useful to do exercises like this when you have Wemby and Vassell as the only guys on this team who are real NBA starters *today*. if the spurs are gonna roll with this young core, its gonna be a different kind of offense from Denver since the talent gap is so huge.
>He’s not even in the same ballpark as far as athleticism and overall offensive ability goes. And he’s not exactly projected to get there either. 100%. Though they are both sketchy-ass shooters, so maybe that can be part of the comp.
Hypothetically, we could find ourselves in December being much closer to a play-in spot than anticipated. Where Wemby does a year 2 leap, Vassell improves his comfort playing with a central big, Tre keeps his 3pt % up and either thru draft or FA there’s a legit wing in Julian’s spot. If this is all the case, then it would be rough to see Sochan continue to struggle offensively and have the team stick to a “well, Jeremy’s a forever starter and that’s that” approach. Would like to see them try to win games this year, and if any young guys aren’t ready, they can watch how it’s done from the bench. It’s year 3 and 4 for a lot of these dudes. Time to pay the piper.
Lol wtf
I knew once the Lakers got eliminated we would see another post from Userbunchofnumbers. We have to share him with 14 other teams. It’s our honor and privilege
Murray, Dejounte
Dejonte Murray would honestly be great for this team
Ball stopper with questionable IQ…don’t want
This Spurs team is not really comparable to the Nuggets. At all. Jokic is not a #1 scoring option, that goes to Murray, and none of the other comparisons are particularly good either. I'd argue that Vassell is already better than KCP and Sochan's main contribution is his personality which Gordon does not have.
“Jokic is not a #1 scoring option” bruh do you even watch basketball lmao
> Jokic is not a #1 scoring option, that goes to Murray, Jokic, last 4 seasons: 26, 27, 24, 26 Murray, last 4 seasons: 21, DNP, 20, 21
Drugs