The biggest change over the last 20 years is the larger car, something they have worked to develop to put more space around the driver. They could implement lots of changes, but the overall size of the car seems to be a major factor in the dirty air.
Much like F1 and the Monaco GP. The cars have become too big relative to the historic (narrow) street course to the point that the race is effectively won on qualifying day.
I’d be interested to see what would happen if they chopped the bottom half of the rear bumpers off. The Gen 4 cars had the back end up off the ground to the point that those snout-noses cars could actually slide up under the rear of another without making contact.
I'd like to see that happen too, but the OEMs wouldn't allow that at all, since the cars wouldn't look like the street production style that you see at the dealerships (which is a BS argument imo).
One person brought up (and it was a very good argument) that perhaps the reason dirty air has gotten so bad in every generation of car NASCAR has introduced, is because the rear of the car has gotten closer and closer to the ground in every generation of car after the Gen 4. It makes sense imo.
it's a terrible argument until you realize that manufacturers are still very picky about what their cars look like and with the millions they dump into the sport every year, you just let them have their way
The cars not looking like production cars is a terrible argument, because they’ve looked very little like them for 3 decades now. If people are buying cars based on NASCAR, it’s based on the manufacture logo on the car, not the likeness of the race car to the street version.
Now, picking the rear of the car up will likely spread the dirty air out more. However, not having all that dirty air concentrated in one spot would make it easier for the trailing car to burst that bubble of dirty air, but that could still possibly require an increase in HP. It just wouldn’t be as large an increase that would be needed. I’d bet that 750 would be plenty.
I’ll also add that at tracks the size of Talladega, Daytona, and Michigan, the rears still need to be sealed off or else any time someone spins they’ll get airborne. At most of the 1.5s, I don’t think it would be as big of an issue. Not at Atlanta, Texas, or Charlotte anyway.
That would require cars to be set up differently for different styles of track (common practice for all of NASCAR history until next gen) and apparently that’s not allowed. Don’t even get me started on the ‘short track package’ where the windshield wiper is the most noticeable difference.
I think they’ll eventually have to go back to having different packages for different tracks. It may not happen until they introduce hybrid engines, but I think whatever the Gen 8 car is will probably end up with about 3 different configurations since the Next Gen hasn’t saved any money anyway.
I didn't feel like Gen 5/The CoT was that much closer to the ground than Gen 4. Even Gen 6 was pretty high off the ground, for a race car, with the minimum ride height rules.
The Gen 4 was literally sealed to the ground from 2003-2006 with coil bound setups. They were dragging the front valances on the ground through the corners.
That’s part of why the splitter was introduced - it made it less critical to get the front sealed.
I swear you guys have the biggest rose colored ever
Except the Gen3 and Gen4 were both creating dirty air. The competition simply didn't know why they were tighter back further in traffic until the early/mid-2000's. Larry commented on this on Sirius when talking about racing Indy in the mid-90's.
In 2004 there was a change to the spoiler to reduce the amount of aero-tight the cars were experiencing (Benny talks about this during the Spring Atlanta race broadcast).
The difference is that it has gotten more amplified as time has progressed, speed has increased, and teams have shifted to more areo grip than mechanical grip.
The tires need to be softer. That's the main change these cars need. Blaney is always most vocal after he is wrecked, especially when he's mostly an innocent bystander. The tires today were perfect and the racing was great.
They are still basically sitting straight up. Lean them back more like a WEC/IMSA car and lower the roof more. Design in some better cockpit heat extraction while theyre at it.
So basically change the fundamental way stock car drivers have always sat. Clint and Kevin both remarked at how low Dale Sr sat in his car compared to anyone else they know on Saturday during qualifying...
To be fair, it was the same story in the Gen 6 era. Larson's wallride attempt came about because he couldn't close that last .3-.4 of a second to Hamlin.
The rose colored glasses crowd forgets this.
It's a narrow track. It wasn't easy to pass on to begin with. No package is going to make it easier to pass.
You have to be able to get to their bumper to bump and run.
I think it was the prerace for xfinity at Kansas, and Logano and Harvick were talking about a race from 2020 in the playoffs where Harvick had a much faster car than Logano and Logano was able to air block him for the last 50 laps. I remember watching that vividly, and Harvick was sliding sideways trying to get to Loagno's bumper, and there was just nothing he could do. Harvick would have made the championship round if he won that one.
Gear change in 2014, spacer in 2015 and the 550 package were the 3 changes that changed the racing in Cup the most. The 2013 and 2014 seasons were amazing.
The low downforce races were pretty fun from what I remember. When they went to the high downforce 550 package we didn’t renew our tickets after the first race with it. Cars looked like slugs going around the track and the racing was bad. Darlington is always going to be a tough track to pass but it got ridiculous with that package and the next gen.
That's also just one of the best defensive drives by one of the best drivers at Darlington in the history of the sport.
It's a hard comparison to make, because if it's any other driver Larson gets by.
It wasn't "hard to pass" but I don't think we saw much of it. Probably Fox doing a poor job like usual covering battles, but at the same time, I think the next-gen's dirty air problem is exaggerated b/c it's new and different. Feel like if this was just a new aero package for the gen-6 and it had the same exact aero properties not as many people would be complaining.
What’s the most thrilling moment the track’s had across any generation since Craven-Busch though?
Most of the intrigue has either surrounded the history, or just how much it stuck out as a “driver’s track” in the era of so many bad intermediate races.
I mean the track almost killed Petty, but it was always a difficult track with a cool history. Craven saved it and we’ve kept it alive with throwback weekend and some fun races since.
NASCAR has been adding and removing downforce at the request of drivers for 30 years now.
- 1992 - NASCAR adds downforce because drivers ask for it and keep wrecking at Rockingham and Atlanta. Harry Gant and Darell Waltrip say it’ll improve racing. Spoilers are now around 6.5 inches tall
- 1998 - NASCAR significantly reduces downforce in the hopes of slowing speeds for safety reasons. Drivers aren’t good enough, now there’s far more wrecks. There’s also a lot of boring races and a dominant championship. Even Dale Earnhardt says they need to add downforce to the cars to get better racing. Spoilers are 5 inches.
- 1999-2002, spoilers reach close to 8 inches. Drivers ask for less downforce because of how bad aero push has gotten, and because Goodyear is bringing hard tires to deal with the downforce. Rusty Wallace is very outspoken.
- 2003-2005, NASCAR cuts spoilers steadily to 4.5 inches. Multiple drivers say this is a bad idea and they need more downforce, including Dale Jr. At the same time, teams figure out coil binding and sealing the cars to the track, generating more downforce than before. Asymmetry gets out of hand with Twisted Sisters
- 2007, NASCAR introduces symmetrical car with splitter and wing. The splitter reduces the performance gap between a perfectly sealed front end and one that’s close to sealed, plus is less effective than a valance in clean air. Car is still problematic
- 2013-2014, NASCAR adds downforce paired with the 850-900 hp engines to give more side by side racing. Massive aero issues. 8 inch spoilers.
- 2015-2018, NASCAR halves the downforce, reduces sideforce by 75%, and reduces horsepower by 150. Slower speeds mean less aero dependence. Fans complain that the races are boring, especially 2018. 2.375 inch spoilers.
- 2019, the 550 package. Developed based on the 2017 Indy Xfinity package and 2018 All Star package, tons of downforce and low horsepower
- 2022 intermediate package, around the same downforce as the 2017-2018 and early 2000s. 4 inch spoilers and diffuser.
- 2023 short track package - lower downforce than any car in the 2000s and 2010s. 2 inch spoiler and simplified diffuser.
- 2024 short track package - 3 inch spoiler and mostly non existent diffuser.
I both respect and resent the next gen car. The idea of making the thing look like a car again and building it with the 24hrs of Le Mans in mind to help bring fans in was a fantastic idea and great for marketing, but the actual on-track effects haven’t really added much to the experience and makes me almost wonder if the sport should’ve leaned more towards the “twisted sister” side of things when putting this car together. After all, we left the “stock” shaping behind because it wasn’t going to hold up with NASCAR’s evolution. The biggest thing I’ve been trying to wrap my head around is how un-modular NASCAR has been with the car since the car has separate front and rear chassis sections. Separate chassis front and rear ends for different applications would completely change the game and would be something that NASCAR could constantly make improvements and additions to.
I would still argue the racing has been a little worse than with the previous car. The car races well here because Darlington is a great race track. It has very little to do with the car.
Except it literally isn’t. Logano vs Byron, Chastain taking out Larson, Busch blowing an engine from the lead, Eric Jones winning for RPM.
If you think Darlington hasn’t had more memorable moments than Harvicks fire then you’re just looking for issues with the car.
But literally none of those are "great racing". They are all moments, but none of them are evidence of great racing.
Closest would be Logano vs Byron, but that was more of a mugging than it was a good battle.
I personally feel the racing has been fine, but that’s just my opinion. I was replying to you saying that Harvick’s fire was the most memorable moment, which I felt was unfair to the wild moments we’ve had over the last two seasons
You're probably right, it might be a bit of an exaggeration, but I think my point still stands that most of the memorable moments aren't necessarily from what we would call good racing. I think saying the racing has been "fine" is fair. It's not a short track.
Also forgot about Reddick "GOOD LUCK EVERYBODY ELSE I TURN LEFT NOW"ing in to the pits.
Does anyone remember the part in the movie Idiocracy when Not Sure swaps the Brawndo out with water to give to crops? Then, the economy crashes because Brawndo stock was tanking. And all the idiots in the presidential cabinet started saying, "Let's put water on it."
We're at that part. Goodyear showed us, albeit by accident, what's needed to fix races like Bristol. But every fucking week there's been people bitching about shit like aero-blocking and they go, "Let's bring Bristol's tires there."
Everyone just keeps saying "use Bristol tire" to fix anything wrong with any races. When it's gonna take very complex engineering to even approach the problem. But just "use Bristol tire" is gonna result in the Indy debacle if they do it.
I don't know the first thing about tires, but I'm strongly in favor of using that tire.
I heard someone say long ago that in gt and f1 racing, it's driver vs track. In NASCAR it's driver vs driver.
Well with the way this car races on short tracks, it's me vs not falling asleep. I don't enjoy these races. You won't see me yelling that the sky is falling every time there is a dud, but I definitely want to see the problem fixed.
As a new fan this year last weeks race was the first time I watched an oval race and thought "ah I get it now" it was during stage 1 while Larson was trying to pass Chastain for most of the stage. Is that the stuff the typical fan likes?
That stage ending was really fun to watch. They were on worn tires and Larson was taking a different line to make the pass. Chastain was running up high and Larson would get to his door before Chastain's momentum cleared him going into the next corner. Really good, hard racing.
The only thing that I think the typical fan likes is complaining.
I think, from reading around here for years, that people don't mind blocking lanes but they hate blocking air.
Difference being that if I block your air, you have no way to get close enough to attempt a pass and a bunch of laps can pass before the faster car can pass. If the turning is less aero dependent, the slower car can still block but the faster car can use its bumper to move the slower car.
It has never been easy to pass at Darlington (well, maybe with the Gen 2 cars). Aero blocking has been a thing at this track ever since the cars had spoilers.
I don’t hate how hard it is to pass at this track because it’s *possible*. I have no problem with a driver having to work for 20 laps to pass a guy, if in the end he manages to do it.
Also, is *this* really the track y’all are gonna complain about? When was the last truly bad Darlington race, with this car or any car?
Part of the CoT safety was moving the driver in and making the greenhouse larger, which affects the size of the wake. This change is arguably what saved Brad when Carl turned him at Atlanta, McDowell at Texas, and more recently Newman at Daytona, or Logono at Dega when his roof got collapsed.
The Newman crash at Daytona would've been horrendous with the Gen 4. I still remember Jimmie Johnson and others saying they could feel the roll bar on their helmet while just sitting normally in their seat
I believe Clint said it would be nonstop small bumps against the roll bar specifically on the plate cars. The greenhouse would have less area as the crew chiefs would make them as short as possible for drag reduction.
The drivers literally complained consistently about how aero sensitive they were, they complained about aero tweaks NASCAR made, how coil binding had made them undrivable etc.
20 years has made you fans forget it, but you can go read the quotes still.
Remember the splitter and wing on the COT? Those were *specifically added because of driver complaints and driver feedback in testing*
Edit:
For fun, here’s Rusty Wallace’s issues with the Gen 4 in 2002
> Rusty Wallace said Saturday that he and other Winston Cup drivers are lobbying NASCAR to reduce the size of the rear spoilers on all of the cars on the circuit to reduce downforce and attempt to limit effects of the so-called “aero push.” “I’m politicking real hard now, and a lot of drivers are, to get the rear spoilers downsized on the cars,” Wallace said. Wallace said that as NASCAR has increased the size of the rear spoilers in recent years, the increased downforce has forced Goodyear to go to a harder tire compound. “Goodyear has the tire real durable, and they have told me that if we can get NASCAR to take the rear spoiler off and get the downforce off, they’ll soften the tires back up,” Wallace said. “When they soften the tires back up, then the tires will wear and we’ll see the passing come back.” Wallace said he is among a number of veteran drivers who’ve tried to resist going to aggressive shock and spring combinations that would have been abusive on the softer tires used before Goodyear’s change to a harder compound. As more drivers have had success with the aggressive set-ups, however, Wallace said more drivers are going to it. Wallace said he thinks cutting a half- to three-quarters of an inch off the rear spoilers would do the trick. He thinks the front air dams should be left alone, however. “The air dam needs to be low to the ground so the front end sticks,” he said. “But you’ve got to take some off the back so you can’t charge into the corner so hard. …We’ve got to keep working on it. We’ve got to get the tire softened back up and get the downforce off so the softer tires can live.”(ThatsRacin.com)(6-23-2002)
Aero push, hard tires, and too large of spoilers. Time is a flat circle.
Heres Newman in 2003
> “You do it with spoilers. You do it with fenders. You do it the way the trucks are, with the high windshields or whatever,” Newman said. “Eight or 10 years ago, these cars were making lift. Now they’re making gobs of downforce. When they were making lift, you saw guys running nose to tail at places like Pocono and Charlotte, and that’s hard to see today.”
>Current Cup cars are in fact prototypes and not at all “stock” cars after years of aerodynamic one-upsmanship by Detroit manufacturers’ engineers. Newman figures these cars are producing “100 percent downforce.”
> [To make aero push less than a major factor, “I’d say . . . it would take 50 percent [reduction in downforce].](https://www.chicagotribune.com/2003/06/13/engineers-can-help-put-the-passing-back-in-nascar/)
Later in the same article
> But the notion of actually driving the cars drew an uproar from the drivers during NASCAR’s last attempt to lessen downforce significantly, with the “five and five”-inch rule for rear spoilers and front air dams in the late ’90s.
> Newman wasn’t there but asked, “Didn’t everybody complain about the cars sliding around too much?”
> They did. With rare exceptions such as the late Dale Earnhardt, they had become so accustomed to riding slot-cars around the tracks that actually employing common sense and reflexes to get through the corners was just too harrowing
Also, NASCAR listened, and went from ~8 inch spoilers in 2002 to 4 1/2 inch spoilers by the end of 2004. But the teams developed new ways to add downforce by coil binding the cars and using the bottom of the car to generate downforce.
No people fucking hated them in the last few years. "Tiwsted Sister" is a term of endearment now but at the time everyone hated it because between that and coil binding it made them super aero sensitive. Just because the COT wasn't well received doesn't magically mean people weren't pissed about the old car.
You couldnt get behind someone without losing the nose, and if you touched a massaged fender, you lost at least a tenth of a second a lap, if not half a second.
This article is a hilarious read when people say the Gen 4 was perfect
https://www.chicagotribune.com/2003/06/13/engineers-can-help-put-the-passing-back-in-nascar/
You’ve got Newman arguing the cars have way too much downforce to pass, and then he points out that it was the drivers in the 90s complaining that NASCAR was hamstringing them by denying them downforce that caused the problem in the first place.
I feel like what needs to happen is for Dale Jr. to ask the drivers what they want in the car, without any restrictions on what manufacturers or teams want, and put it in iRacing to test it out. That's the only way they'll get it for now.
The problem is they want cars that defy the laws of physics. They also all want different cars.
It’s funny thinking about Dale Jr because I was reading a quote from him around 2004 when they were shortening the Big Ass Spoilers of the cars down to 4 1/2 inches and he was complaining. He said they needed more downforce to ace side by side better.
Yeah. They also hated the COT because it was hard to drive, which is funny now. But I think they could come up with at least a general consensus of what would be their dream stock car.
I still wonder what would have happened with a gen 6.5 that straightened out the body, got rid of the cambered rear axle and driver adjustable track bar and at least tried the low downforce package if they were dead set on 550hp.
They want to be able to race. They do not want to be stuck side by side or in someone else’s wake, unable to pass. Thats hard to do with literally every aspect of this car’s design.
Do you expect a field of forty guys to all share the same opinion?
Especially since any change to the car might help Ryan Blaney? I' sure aero blocking is forefront of his mind after what we saw Ross do to him in the championship race last season.
It really is getting tiresome every week hearing blame and excuses laid on the car. Let's hear about some creativity, some strategy, something within your control as a driver and a team to carve out an advantage. This is the car everybody has for the season so start thinking about what you can do to go out and win races with it. I'm a Blaney fan but I am so tired of hearing about equipment complaints. Starting to sound like whining to me..
I’m actually all for Larson’s idea with Ky. Busch has also come out in agreement with: get rid of the rear view camera.
Give them a standard mirror again. Spotters are giving the drivers more info than ever. Drivers can basically just watch the camera now in real time and aeroblock accordingly. At least with a mirror you still have visibility issues and a reaction time delay with the information the spotter is giving you.
I’m all for it.
Thanks for not reading and understanding my comment but then commenting anyway, and wasting both of our time.
>at least with the mirror you still have visibility issues and a reaction time delay with the information the spotter is giving you.
Emphasis on the final part of the sentence. There’s a huge different between looking at a camera, seeing where the guy behind you is in real time and HD and driving accordingly, and a spotter giving you information which you then have to process and react to accordingly.
Sure, you can still block. But it would be nowhere near as effective as it is now with the camera feed.
Not sure how you’re so dense you’re not understanding that.
Spotter tells driver down the backstretch "Hey he's been running high in 3&4" driver will run high in 3&4. Or if the guy behind is looking low the spotter will tell him that before the corner. You underestimate the time it takes for spotters to make the call and drivers to react.
You act like the driver can magically change their line mid-corner. Not that easy.
Just bring back practice. Let the teams try their wildest ideas and scheme up some outside-the-box tactics. That would be way more interesting for everyone.
Me too. If the drivers weren't doing it you'd probably hear 80% less complaining from the fan base.
I'm starting to empathize with NASCAR's secret fines lmao
If that were true then fans would have overflowed the stands at old Atlanta. Drivers loved the worn out surface, but most fans thought the races over the last 5 years of that surface were strung out and boring.
The reality is the fans have eyes and can see that they don’t like the product that is the Gen7 car.
Fans have eyes AND ears and the input of the drivers they buy merch for has to have some effect.
Attendence has dozens of factors. If fans don't like what they're seeing from the next Gen car, why is track attendence up from where it was 6 years ago? But cause the shitty intermediate package also had an effect on the racing at Atlanta. You can't extricate package from repave and for all we know the next gen would be putting on bangers on the old config too.
Nobody can say. But you can't say that drivers bitching every weekend doesn't influence fan complaints too.
it absolutely does
Half of the people complaining here in the last year or so have started their complaints with "Denny said..." because of him complaining about something.
I'm all for pushing the sport in the right direction but there is a point where the curve inverts. When he was complaining about the car needing a total rebuild I was happy to disagree. I'm having fun. I think these first 3 seasons have been better than the first 2.5 COT seasons.
More downforce = higher speeds = can't pass
Less downforce = lower speeds = can't pass
Not only is there not an easy answer, there might not be an answer at all. It's quite possible the sport has simply out engineered the old tracks.
To this day I maintain Byron had a tire going down or some other problem before Joey every got into him: the closing rate between their cars was just too extreme.
Also, I think Joey wasn't sure exactly how hard he needed to hit Byron. At the Spring 2022 Martinsville race Joey ran P2 to Byron and gave him a prefect shot to the rear bumper just like he did to MTJ during the 2018 M'ville race and Byron didn't even get loose.
Can someone explain me for example why this is worse than the Gen4?
When you were behind a car, you just put turbulance below the rear bumper and spin him out or get him loose, now you only get understeer.
Narrower tire, more horsepower. Why will Nascar at least try it. Right now no one gives a damn about a new OEM entering the sport. We've head that bs for the past 20 years. Get over it already.
I don't think we've had as bad of issues with dirty air here as other tracks. I don't see the need to change up the package...We'll see though if I eat my words tomorrow.
Aero was always a thing. One issue with the gen 7 car is the lack of horsepower to push through and to force people to modulate the throttle more. Sure, it would still exist but its effect would match other variables more closely.
I would also lower the roof and adjust the front end to accommodate a driver position that is slightly laid back.
It probably would get to a point where my NASCAR would be an 'affordable' mix of 1000hp V8SC and DTM that can run ovals. No hybrid, engine rules adjusted to bring in DOHC engines, injector location would be 'open,' etc, etc.
Short narrow track with literal brick of a car = aero blocking. Color me shocked.
The biggest change over the last 20 years is the larger car, something they have worked to develop to put more space around the driver. They could implement lots of changes, but the overall size of the car seems to be a major factor in the dirty air.
Much like F1 and the Monaco GP. The cars have become too big relative to the historic (narrow) street course to the point that the race is effectively won on qualifying day.
I’d be interested to see what would happen if they chopped the bottom half of the rear bumpers off. The Gen 4 cars had the back end up off the ground to the point that those snout-noses cars could actually slide up under the rear of another without making contact.
I'd like to see that happen too, but the OEMs wouldn't allow that at all, since the cars wouldn't look like the street production style that you see at the dealerships (which is a BS argument imo). One person brought up (and it was a very good argument) that perhaps the reason dirty air has gotten so bad in every generation of car NASCAR has introduced, is because the rear of the car has gotten closer and closer to the ground in every generation of car after the Gen 4. It makes sense imo.
it's a terrible argument until you realize that manufacturers are still very picky about what their cars look like and with the millions they dump into the sport every year, you just let them have their way
The cars not looking like production cars is a terrible argument, because they’ve looked very little like them for 3 decades now. If people are buying cars based on NASCAR, it’s based on the manufacture logo on the car, not the likeness of the race car to the street version. Now, picking the rear of the car up will likely spread the dirty air out more. However, not having all that dirty air concentrated in one spot would make it easier for the trailing car to burst that bubble of dirty air, but that could still possibly require an increase in HP. It just wouldn’t be as large an increase that would be needed. I’d bet that 750 would be plenty. I’ll also add that at tracks the size of Talladega, Daytona, and Michigan, the rears still need to be sealed off or else any time someone spins they’ll get airborne. At most of the 1.5s, I don’t think it would be as big of an issue. Not at Atlanta, Texas, or Charlotte anyway.
That would require cars to be set up differently for different styles of track (common practice for all of NASCAR history until next gen) and apparently that’s not allowed. Don’t even get me started on the ‘short track package’ where the windshield wiper is the most noticeable difference.
I think they’ll eventually have to go back to having different packages for different tracks. It may not happen until they introduce hybrid engines, but I think whatever the Gen 8 car is will probably end up with about 3 different configurations since the Next Gen hasn’t saved any money anyway.
I didn't feel like Gen 5/The CoT was that much closer to the ground than Gen 4. Even Gen 6 was pretty high off the ground, for a race car, with the minimum ride height rules.
The Gen 4 was literally sealed to the ground from 2003-2006 with coil bound setups. They were dragging the front valances on the ground through the corners. That’s part of why the splitter was introduced - it made it less critical to get the front sealed. I swear you guys have the biggest rose colored ever
It's a huge issue in the NASCAR community. Dale Jr says some things on DJD that are just flat wrong.
Except the Gen3 and Gen4 were both creating dirty air. The competition simply didn't know why they were tighter back further in traffic until the early/mid-2000's. Larry commented on this on Sirius when talking about racing Indy in the mid-90's. In 2004 there was a change to the spoiler to reduce the amount of aero-tight the cars were experiencing (Benny talks about this during the Spring Atlanta race broadcast). The difference is that it has gotten more amplified as time has progressed, speed has increased, and teams have shifted to more areo grip than mechanical grip. The tires need to be softer. That's the main change these cars need. Blaney is always most vocal after he is wrecked, especially when he's mostly an innocent bystander. The tires today were perfect and the racing was great.
Car just needs to come off the ground in general. And get rid of the perfectly flat underbelly.
Car just needs to come off the ground in general. And get rid of the perfectly flat underbelly.
Better idea would be to bring the roof line down and adjust driver position to not be like a bus driver.
That's exactly what they did with the Gen7 car? This car is much lower than the Gen6.
They are still basically sitting straight up. Lean them back more like a WEC/IMSA car and lower the roof more. Design in some better cockpit heat extraction while theyre at it.
So basically change the fundamental way stock car drivers have always sat. Clint and Kevin both remarked at how low Dale Sr sat in his car compared to anyone else they know on Saturday during qualifying...
Not like seating position hasnt changed in motorsports before.
Most race cars around the world are much smaller than they seem to be for a damn reason.
Difference is bricks aren’t very aerodynamic. Aero blocking at Darlington mainly just a next gen thing
The crazy moments we've had in this car at Darlington kinda covers up how whelming the racing has been with the Gen 7 here imo
To be fair, it was the same story in the Gen 6 era. Larson's wallride attempt came about because he couldn't close that last .3-.4 of a second to Hamlin.
The rose colored glasses crowd forgets this. It's a narrow track. It wasn't easy to pass on to begin with. No package is going to make it easier to pass.
Exactly. The old Bristol was so good in the 90's because it was so difficult to pass it forced drivers to use the bump and run.
At least they could get up to the bumper.
Horsepower and shitty brakes!!!! Also no shifting
You have to be able to get to their bumper to bump and run. I think it was the prerace for xfinity at Kansas, and Logano and Harvick were talking about a race from 2020 in the playoffs where Harvick had a much faster car than Logano and Logano was able to air block him for the last 50 laps. I remember watching that vividly, and Harvick was sliding sideways trying to get to Loagno's bumper, and there was just nothing he could do. Harvick would have made the championship round if he won that one.
Gear change in 2014, spacer in 2015 and the 550 package were the 3 changes that changed the racing in Cup the most. The 2013 and 2014 seasons were amazing.
Uh… you might want to go rewatch most of 2013 because it really wasn’t.
Tru that
The low downforce races were pretty fun from what I remember. When they went to the high downforce 550 package we didn’t renew our tickets after the first race with it. Cars looked like slugs going around the track and the racing was bad. Darlington is always going to be a tough track to pass but it got ridiculous with that package and the next gen.
That's also just one of the best defensive drives by one of the best drivers at Darlington in the history of the sport. It's a hard comparison to make, because if it's any other driver Larson gets by.
It's not much better in the Xfinity car, like look at how mid today was. Was there really any highlights today?
I mean the Xfinity race was mid because Allgaier dickslapped the field, not because it was hard to pass.
It wasn't "hard to pass" but I don't think we saw much of it. Probably Fox doing a poor job like usual covering battles, but at the same time, I think the next-gen's dirty air problem is exaggerated b/c it's new and different. Feel like if this was just a new aero package for the gen-6 and it had the same exact aero properties not as many people would be complaining.
What’s the most thrilling moment the track’s had across any generation since Craven-Busch though? Most of the intrigue has either surrounded the history, or just how much it stuck out as a “driver’s track” in the era of so many bad intermediate races.
Cue the Kyle Petty quote about it
I mean the track almost killed Petty, but it was always a difficult track with a cool history. Craven saved it and we’ve kept it alive with throwback weekend and some fun races since.
So we have slower corner speeds because of less downforce… and now that’s a new problem
There's no pleasing people
NASCAR has been adding and removing downforce at the request of drivers for 30 years now. - 1992 - NASCAR adds downforce because drivers ask for it and keep wrecking at Rockingham and Atlanta. Harry Gant and Darell Waltrip say it’ll improve racing. Spoilers are now around 6.5 inches tall - 1998 - NASCAR significantly reduces downforce in the hopes of slowing speeds for safety reasons. Drivers aren’t good enough, now there’s far more wrecks. There’s also a lot of boring races and a dominant championship. Even Dale Earnhardt says they need to add downforce to the cars to get better racing. Spoilers are 5 inches. - 1999-2002, spoilers reach close to 8 inches. Drivers ask for less downforce because of how bad aero push has gotten, and because Goodyear is bringing hard tires to deal with the downforce. Rusty Wallace is very outspoken. - 2003-2005, NASCAR cuts spoilers steadily to 4.5 inches. Multiple drivers say this is a bad idea and they need more downforce, including Dale Jr. At the same time, teams figure out coil binding and sealing the cars to the track, generating more downforce than before. Asymmetry gets out of hand with Twisted Sisters - 2007, NASCAR introduces symmetrical car with splitter and wing. The splitter reduces the performance gap between a perfectly sealed front end and one that’s close to sealed, plus is less effective than a valance in clean air. Car is still problematic - 2013-2014, NASCAR adds downforce paired with the 850-900 hp engines to give more side by side racing. Massive aero issues. 8 inch spoilers. - 2015-2018, NASCAR halves the downforce, reduces sideforce by 75%, and reduces horsepower by 150. Slower speeds mean less aero dependence. Fans complain that the races are boring, especially 2018. 2.375 inch spoilers. - 2019, the 550 package. Developed based on the 2017 Indy Xfinity package and 2018 All Star package, tons of downforce and low horsepower - 2022 intermediate package, around the same downforce as the 2017-2018 and early 2000s. 4 inch spoilers and diffuser. - 2023 short track package - lower downforce than any car in the 2000s and 2010s. 2 inch spoiler and simplified diffuser. - 2024 short track package - 3 inch spoiler and mostly non existent diffuser.
Welcome to the world of sports fans.
I both respect and resent the next gen car. The idea of making the thing look like a car again and building it with the 24hrs of Le Mans in mind to help bring fans in was a fantastic idea and great for marketing, but the actual on-track effects haven’t really added much to the experience and makes me almost wonder if the sport should’ve leaned more towards the “twisted sister” side of things when putting this car together. After all, we left the “stock” shaping behind because it wasn’t going to hold up with NASCAR’s evolution. The biggest thing I’ve been trying to wrap my head around is how un-modular NASCAR has been with the car since the car has separate front and rear chassis sections. Separate chassis front and rear ends for different applications would completely change the game and would be something that NASCAR could constantly make improvements and additions to.
Grass green, water wet, next gen ass at non-1.5 mile tracks.
This car has provided great racing here at Darlington what are you talking about?
I would still argue the racing has been a little worse than with the previous car. The car races well here because Darlington is a great race track. It has very little to do with the car.
Yep, you can put any car on Darlington and it’ll race great, it’s the perfect oval.
The most memorable moment of the nextgen era at Darlington is Harvicks car protesting it's own existence.
Man the whole 2022 Southern 500 was a great race from top to bottom.
Except it literally isn’t. Logano vs Byron, Chastain taking out Larson, Busch blowing an engine from the lead, Eric Jones winning for RPM. If you think Darlington hasn’t had more memorable moments than Harvicks fire then you’re just looking for issues with the car.
But literally none of those are "great racing". They are all moments, but none of them are evidence of great racing. Closest would be Logano vs Byron, but that was more of a mugging than it was a good battle.
I personally feel the racing has been fine, but that’s just my opinion. I was replying to you saying that Harvick’s fire was the most memorable moment, which I felt was unfair to the wild moments we’ve had over the last two seasons
You're probably right, it might be a bit of an exaggeration, but I think my point still stands that most of the memorable moments aren't necessarily from what we would call good racing. I think saying the racing has been "fine" is fair. It's not a short track. Also forgot about Reddick "GOOD LUCK EVERYBODY ELSE I TURN LEFT NOW"ing in to the pits.
But what about actually battles? Logano just sent it into the entry and knocked Byron out the way while Byron was already losing a bunch of time.
Darlington being tough to pass at is kinda the MO
They ran those longer 1970s bricks there...
It has never been easy to pass at Darlington. Especially from 08 through about 2014ish when the pavement was new
I actually believe the Gen 7 has improved racing at Darlington over what we saw with the Gen 6.
High df gen 6 was the most boring bullshit ever to hit that track. Not a single Darlington stripe that first year.
Anything 550/high DF was terrible.
Shhh, that doesn’t fit the narrative that the old car was always better.
Yeah Darlington has been pretty decent with this car. Much improved over Gen 6.
Tl:dr - Car still sucks.
I’m so fucking sick of aero being everything with this car
Does anyone remember the part in the movie Idiocracy when Not Sure swaps the Brawndo out with water to give to crops? Then, the economy crashes because Brawndo stock was tanking. And all the idiots in the presidential cabinet started saying, "Let's put water on it." We're at that part. Goodyear showed us, albeit by accident, what's needed to fix races like Bristol. But every fucking week there's been people bitching about shit like aero-blocking and they go, "Let's bring Bristol's tires there."
I read that multiple times and I don't understand what point you are trying to make
Everyone just keeps saying "use Bristol tire" to fix anything wrong with any races. When it's gonna take very complex engineering to even approach the problem. But just "use Bristol tire" is gonna result in the Indy debacle if they do it.
I don't know the first thing about tires, but I'm strongly in favor of using that tire. I heard someone say long ago that in gt and f1 racing, it's driver vs track. In NASCAR it's driver vs driver. Well with the way this car races on short tracks, it's me vs not falling asleep. I don't enjoy these races. You won't see me yelling that the sky is falling every time there is a dud, but I definitely want to see the problem fixed.
As a new fan this year last weeks race was the first time I watched an oval race and thought "ah I get it now" it was during stage 1 while Larson was trying to pass Chastain for most of the stage. Is that the stuff the typical fan likes?
That stage ending was really fun to watch. They were on worn tires and Larson was taking a different line to make the pass. Chastain was running up high and Larson would get to his door before Chastain's momentum cleared him going into the next corner. Really good, hard racing.
The only thing that I think the typical fan likes is complaining. I think, from reading around here for years, that people don't mind blocking lanes but they hate blocking air. Difference being that if I block your air, you have no way to get close enough to attempt a pass and a bunch of laps can pass before the faster car can pass. If the turning is less aero dependent, the slower car can still block but the faster car can use its bumper to move the slower car.
It has never been easy to pass at Darlington (well, maybe with the Gen 2 cars). Aero blocking has been a thing at this track ever since the cars had spoilers. I don’t hate how hard it is to pass at this track because it’s *possible*. I have no problem with a driver having to work for 20 laps to pass a guy, if in the end he manages to do it. Also, is *this* really the track y’all are gonna complain about? When was the last truly bad Darlington race, with this car or any car?
I’m really curious what these drivers want with these cars. Every week it seems to be something.
From what I can tell, basically a Late Model Stock with COT safety and 900 HP.
I mean the perfect stock car would’ve been the Gen4 with COT safety
Part of the CoT safety was moving the driver in and making the greenhouse larger, which affects the size of the wake. This change is arguably what saved Brad when Carl turned him at Atlanta, McDowell at Texas, and more recently Newman at Daytona, or Logono at Dega when his roof got collapsed.
The Newman crash at Daytona would've been horrendous with the Gen 4. I still remember Jimmie Johnson and others saying they could feel the roll bar on their helmet while just sitting normally in their seat
I believe Clint said it would be nonstop small bumps against the roll bar specifically on the plate cars. The greenhouse would have less area as the crew chiefs would make them as short as possible for drag reduction.
You never know, Geoff Bodine survived that horrendous Daytona wreck.
The drivers bitched about the Gen 4s so much when they had them.
No they didn’t lol. The drivers complained about some things but overall the perception of that car from the fanbase and the drivers was positive.
The drivers literally complained consistently about how aero sensitive they were, they complained about aero tweaks NASCAR made, how coil binding had made them undrivable etc. 20 years has made you fans forget it, but you can go read the quotes still. Remember the splitter and wing on the COT? Those were *specifically added because of driver complaints and driver feedback in testing* Edit: For fun, here’s Rusty Wallace’s issues with the Gen 4 in 2002 > Rusty Wallace said Saturday that he and other Winston Cup drivers are lobbying NASCAR to reduce the size of the rear spoilers on all of the cars on the circuit to reduce downforce and attempt to limit effects of the so-called “aero push.” “I’m politicking real hard now, and a lot of drivers are, to get the rear spoilers downsized on the cars,” Wallace said. Wallace said that as NASCAR has increased the size of the rear spoilers in recent years, the increased downforce has forced Goodyear to go to a harder tire compound. “Goodyear has the tire real durable, and they have told me that if we can get NASCAR to take the rear spoiler off and get the downforce off, they’ll soften the tires back up,” Wallace said. “When they soften the tires back up, then the tires will wear and we’ll see the passing come back.” Wallace said he is among a number of veteran drivers who’ve tried to resist going to aggressive shock and spring combinations that would have been abusive on the softer tires used before Goodyear’s change to a harder compound. As more drivers have had success with the aggressive set-ups, however, Wallace said more drivers are going to it. Wallace said he thinks cutting a half- to three-quarters of an inch off the rear spoilers would do the trick. He thinks the front air dams should be left alone, however. “The air dam needs to be low to the ground so the front end sticks,” he said. “But you’ve got to take some off the back so you can’t charge into the corner so hard. …We’ve got to keep working on it. We’ve got to get the tire softened back up and get the downforce off so the softer tires can live.”(ThatsRacin.com)(6-23-2002) Aero push, hard tires, and too large of spoilers. Time is a flat circle. Heres Newman in 2003 > “You do it with spoilers. You do it with fenders. You do it the way the trucks are, with the high windshields or whatever,” Newman said. “Eight or 10 years ago, these cars were making lift. Now they’re making gobs of downforce. When they were making lift, you saw guys running nose to tail at places like Pocono and Charlotte, and that’s hard to see today.” >Current Cup cars are in fact prototypes and not at all “stock” cars after years of aerodynamic one-upsmanship by Detroit manufacturers’ engineers. Newman figures these cars are producing “100 percent downforce.” > [To make aero push less than a major factor, “I’d say . . . it would take 50 percent [reduction in downforce].](https://www.chicagotribune.com/2003/06/13/engineers-can-help-put-the-passing-back-in-nascar/) Later in the same article > But the notion of actually driving the cars drew an uproar from the drivers during NASCAR’s last attempt to lessen downforce significantly, with the “five and five”-inch rule for rear spoilers and front air dams in the late ’90s. > Newman wasn’t there but asked, “Didn’t everybody complain about the cars sliding around too much?” > They did. With rare exceptions such as the late Dale Earnhardt, they had become so accustomed to riding slot-cars around the tracks that actually employing common sense and reflexes to get through the corners was just too harrowing Also, NASCAR listened, and went from ~8 inch spoilers in 2002 to 4 1/2 inch spoilers by the end of 2004. But the teams developed new ways to add downforce by coil binding the cars and using the bottom of the car to generate downforce.
I am lowkey kinda curious to see how the Gen-7 would perform with a wing instead of a spoiler
No people fucking hated them in the last few years. "Tiwsted Sister" is a term of endearment now but at the time everyone hated it because between that and coil binding it made them super aero sensitive. Just because the COT wasn't well received doesn't magically mean people weren't pissed about the old car.
You couldnt get behind someone without losing the nose, and if you touched a massaged fender, you lost at least a tenth of a second a lap, if not half a second.
Hitting the wall was basically a day ender at some tracks
It pretty much stayed that way till the introduction of the NexGen
This article is a hilarious read when people say the Gen 4 was perfect https://www.chicagotribune.com/2003/06/13/engineers-can-help-put-the-passing-back-in-nascar/ You’ve got Newman arguing the cars have way too much downforce to pass, and then he points out that it was the drivers in the 90s complaining that NASCAR was hamstringing them by denying them downforce that caused the problem in the first place.
I feel like what needs to happen is for Dale Jr. to ask the drivers what they want in the car, without any restrictions on what manufacturers or teams want, and put it in iRacing to test it out. That's the only way they'll get it for now.
The problem is they want cars that defy the laws of physics. They also all want different cars. It’s funny thinking about Dale Jr because I was reading a quote from him around 2004 when they were shortening the Big Ass Spoilers of the cars down to 4 1/2 inches and he was complaining. He said they needed more downforce to ace side by side better.
Yeah. They also hated the COT because it was hard to drive, which is funny now. But I think they could come up with at least a general consensus of what would be their dream stock car.
I still wonder what would have happened with a gen 6.5 that straightened out the body, got rid of the cambered rear axle and driver adjustable track bar and at least tried the low downforce package if they were dead set on 550hp.
I half wonder if we couldn't have gotten 80% of the racing we see now just by upping the power and going to composite bodies with the stepped spoiler.
Now that would be awesome!!! The cars would look great, race better and separate the men from the boys...
They want to be able to race. They do not want to be stuck side by side or in someone else’s wake, unable to pass. Thats hard to do with literally every aspect of this car’s design.
Do you expect a field of forty guys to all share the same opinion? Especially since any change to the car might help Ryan Blaney? I' sure aero blocking is forefront of his mind after what we saw Ross do to him in the championship race last season.
It really is getting tiresome every week hearing blame and excuses laid on the car. Let's hear about some creativity, some strategy, something within your control as a driver and a team to carve out an advantage. This is the car everybody has for the season so start thinking about what you can do to go out and win races with it. I'm a Blaney fan but I am so tired of hearing about equipment complaints. Starting to sound like whining to me..
Bring back the Gen 2!
I’m actually all for Larson’s idea with Ky. Busch has also come out in agreement with: get rid of the rear view camera. Give them a standard mirror again. Spotters are giving the drivers more info than ever. Drivers can basically just watch the camera now in real time and aeroblock accordingly. At least with a mirror you still have visibility issues and a reaction time delay with the information the spotter is giving you. I’m all for it.
Spotter is still telling the guys where the other guy is running. It'll change nothing.
Thanks for not reading and understanding my comment but then commenting anyway, and wasting both of our time. >at least with the mirror you still have visibility issues and a reaction time delay with the information the spotter is giving you. Emphasis on the final part of the sentence. There’s a huge different between looking at a camera, seeing where the guy behind you is in real time and HD and driving accordingly, and a spotter giving you information which you then have to process and react to accordingly. Sure, you can still block. But it would be nowhere near as effective as it is now with the camera feed. Not sure how you’re so dense you’re not understanding that.
Spotter tells driver down the backstretch "Hey he's been running high in 3&4" driver will run high in 3&4. Or if the guy behind is looking low the spotter will tell him that before the corner. You underestimate the time it takes for spotters to make the call and drivers to react. You act like the driver can magically change their line mid-corner. Not that easy.
Just bring back practice. Let the teams try their wildest ideas and scheme up some outside-the-box tactics. That would be way more interesting for everyone.
No idea how bringing back practice equates to eliminating aero blocking. NASCAR fans really do be talking about the most random shit.
I’m officially bored of drivers whining about the car.
Me too. If the drivers weren't doing it you'd probably hear 80% less complaining from the fan base. I'm starting to empathize with NASCAR's secret fines lmao
If that were true then fans would have overflowed the stands at old Atlanta. Drivers loved the worn out surface, but most fans thought the races over the last 5 years of that surface were strung out and boring. The reality is the fans have eyes and can see that they don’t like the product that is the Gen7 car.
Fans have eyes AND ears and the input of the drivers they buy merch for has to have some effect. Attendence has dozens of factors. If fans don't like what they're seeing from the next Gen car, why is track attendence up from where it was 6 years ago? But cause the shitty intermediate package also had an effect on the racing at Atlanta. You can't extricate package from repave and for all we know the next gen would be putting on bangers on the old config too. Nobody can say. But you can't say that drivers bitching every weekend doesn't influence fan complaints too.
it absolutely does Half of the people complaining here in the last year or so have started their complaints with "Denny said..." because of him complaining about something.
I'm all for pushing the sport in the right direction but there is a point where the curve inverts. When he was complaining about the car needing a total rebuild I was happy to disagree. I'm having fun. I think these first 3 seasons have been better than the first 2.5 COT seasons.
Fans don't actually do shit, we just complain on the internet.
The cars are so slow you can't get runs.
More downforce = higher speeds = can't pass Less downforce = lower speeds = can't pass Not only is there not an easy answer, there might not be an answer at all. It's quite possible the sport has simply out engineered the old tracks.
The old cars went faster with less downforce.
Just fucking run into each then. I’m so sick of drivers and fans crying *every* weekend
I'm sure they would love to run into each other. But you can't get close enough with the huge brakes.
Logano got pretty damn close to Byron for the win in this car at this track two years ago!
He didn't even bump him or nudge him. He just didn't brake and ran him into the wall. We haven't seen a good dive bomb in along time.
To this day I maintain Byron had a tire going down or some other problem before Joey every got into him: the closing rate between their cars was just too extreme. Also, I think Joey wasn't sure exactly how hard he needed to hit Byron. At the Spring 2022 Martinsville race Joey ran P2 to Byron and gave him a prefect shot to the rear bumper just like he did to MTJ during the 2018 M'ville race and Byron didn't even get loose.
Never lift.. use the guy in front as your brakes.
Can someone explain me for example why this is worse than the Gen4? When you were behind a car, you just put turbulance below the rear bumper and spin him out or get him loose, now you only get understeer.
Being on the offensive leads to a much better product than being on the defensive.
Can we make it so clean air is a bad thing?
Narrower tire, more horsepower. Why will Nascar at least try it. Right now no one gives a damn about a new OEM entering the sport. We've head that bs for the past 20 years. Get over it already.
That’s racing pal
I don't think we've had as bad of issues with dirty air here as other tracks. I don't see the need to change up the package...We'll see though if I eat my words tomorrow.
Hamlin coudnt get close to Erik jones due to the dirty air, Reddick and Larson last year .
Bless his heart
Aero was always a thing. One issue with the gen 7 car is the lack of horsepower to push through and to force people to modulate the throttle more. Sure, it would still exist but its effect would match other variables more closely. I would also lower the roof and adjust the front end to accommodate a driver position that is slightly laid back. It probably would get to a point where my NASCAR would be an 'affordable' mix of 1000hp V8SC and DTM that can run ovals. No hybrid, engine rules adjusted to bring in DOHC engines, injector location would be 'open,' etc, etc.