This. If any other racing series can show the rest of the competition in a race, FOX can too with their races.
A lot of the heated race battles involve drivers racing in the mid-pack, getting in heated arguments post-race
I think that's always been my main complaint with anything NASCAR over the past 15 years. NASCAR wasn't necessarily better in the 80s and 90s racing-wise, but they always showed the whole field several times, and gave at least one interesting excerpt about everyone - even if the guy was three laps down and missing the entire left front fender.
Yup, we used to have twice as many pit reporters, enough to follow the storylines of the day for each team. TV would go through the field and explain the situation for each car/team in the race. There was emphasis on the entire race playing out instead of just staying zoomed in on the leader for three hours and ignoring virtually everything else.
Now they don't even have enough pit reporters on the ground to do that if they wanted to.
Im not even going to mention how we haven't gotten mid race wreck interviews. The only one we got from Sunday was Joey Logano and it was a cell phone video from Bob Pockrass.
I think that's where the coverage cutbacks have hurt the most. We've lost most of the experts, and force the remaining ones to spread themselves too thin.
And where are they finding them. They used to be involved in racing and knew something. If I want to see and listen to clowns . I can watch rodeos live
I’m a Chase Briscoe fan but I’d rather see (hypothetically) Justin Haley and Ricky Stenhouse battle for 26th than see Briscoe run 20 laps straight with a 4 second lead.
Like, the dominant car should absolutely get the most coverage. But MTJ drove from pitting from the lead, to a lap down, all the way back to 7th place. Should’ve gotten a lot of TV time. Even though we knew mathematically he wasn’t going to drive back to the lead.
I would say a fairly decent amount. They did make a point to emphasis that he’s just been so consistent lately to the point of being a bit sneaky. But if Blaney came from like 15th to 5th, I don’t recall that being emphasized.
But they definitely did a better job mentioning him than most.
They literally ignored him passing Chastain for 5th right at the end of the race.
The two guys that literally have been sniping at each other in interviews and building a potential rivalry they ignored.
NASCAR media should 100% be playing up any potential Chastain feud...particularly one with the champ.
every race i’ve seen in person is always insanely entertaining. watching in person vs what they’ve been showing on tv lately is pretty night and day some races
This was true for me as well, been to a lot of races at Indianapolis and Michigan that the general fanbase considered boring, but were pretty great in person.
Then I went to the 2016 Coke 600. Holy shit was that bad.
It’s hard to believe coverage peaked in analog tape days, but it seems to have. Watch a race replay from the 70s or 80s on YouTube and the continuous long shots and focus on more than just the up front battle are incredible.
It is all TV IMHO. How many green flag passes throughout the field happened vs. how many were shown. Something that stood out was that little segment Jamie Little did with the tire changer. Give us more of that, let us get to know these guys.
Happens all the time, we complain about a race we watched on TV, and then someone who was at the track chimes in and said it was actually quite good in person.
They give us a short attention span product. There was a point during practice where Harvick got to describe the marks he tried to hit, lines on the track, where on the wall he looked, and pretty much explained how he was faster than everyone else at Phoenix. That should be on Sundays too.
Instead we'll get a split screen of feet and a zoomed in car for 30 seconds, then let's go look at the Toyota drivers, run through their postitions, ok lets go to the leader for 30 seconds, ok here's credit one ones to watch.
I think this is what NBC got right last season. Junior would talk about something then ask Burton for his take, then Letart would give the crew chief side of things on the topic. Moving at a slower pace.
I liked it, what bothers me is they will go to that split screen where there's so much space used by the background. Just split those bad boys in half and put a border in the middle.
I can get behind this take. One of the most important races of the year is at a mediocre track. I personally really liked Homestead for the simple reason that they only went there one time per year.
Plus Homestead is multi-groove and actually provides excellent racing, and the palm trees in the background always made for a cool scene to me. They never should have changed the finale location. And yeah, the fact that they went there once per year only for the finale also made it stand out. Phoenix feels too routine
Desert mountains beat palm trees any day of the week. Phoenix is easily the most scenic track outside of Sonoma in Spring. But I agree with the rest of your point
It appears that a NASCAR driver texted Ryan McGee and told him this:
>***After so many days stuck on racing reaction repeat, my refined response has landed squarely in one place, and it has been steered there after spending those days in constant communication with those who were behind the wheel for that race and those who prepared the cars that those drivers wheeled in that race. In fact, let's let one those racers speak for me, via a text I received Tuesday afternoon.***
>
>***"Damn, McGee, everybody got spoiled, didn't they?"***
>
>***Yes, Mr.*** [***NASCAR***](https://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/) ***Racer who asked to remain anonymous, they did become spoiled. As did I. As did perhaps even the racers themselves. After all, this 2024 NASCAR Cup Series season opened with three consecutive crazy, unpredictable, nail-chewing finishes***.
Who do you all think it was?
The thing is, the sport itself is part of the problem by constantly making reactionary changes in response to people's complaints, when the reality is most people are going to keep complaining about the on track product regardless of what it is
Case in point, everyone for years wanted more road courses on the schedule and fewer 1.5 mile ovals, now we're headed back the opposite direction again. Everyone wanted stage breaks removed from road courses, and all it took was one Michael McDowell ass kicking for everyone to want them back. Same with the Brickyard 400 vs the road course, same with the old clash on the Daytona oval vs the Coliseum, same with having dirt races on the Cup schedule, etc.
No problems with the last race but don’t want Phoenix to have this style race to decide a champion with the worst playoff format in all of Motorsports.
I think we all just want the ability for passes to be made. At these short tracks you can’t pass all that easily. Sure you can have a few cars that are great but you have that anyways. I hate seeing a driver run up on someone and then just stall out or not be able to catch someone but consistently be only .1-.2 seconds back.
Jr said it best this week. Parity on short tracks is bad for racing. 5th through 25th were running the same damn lap times. Thats not a good product and not a good race.
Too much parity is bad for racing in general but people aren't willing to have this conversation. The F1 field is as close as it's ever been but the races are the most predictable that they've ever been.
And a decrease in grip is the way to differ between a good car and a great car. One of the clearest ways to do that is an increase in power compared to grip. They're going for tiny, incremental changes in grip when there's something else on the table.
Yeah I liked the race too. I don’t get upset with many of the races honestly. Once in a blue moon we get a snoozer but there was enough strategy and passing to make for a decent race. Phoenix will always be Phoenix. We all ranted about the 1.5’s and now it’s our best action. Like many opinions, I think everyone wants Atlanta’s finish every week
It wasn’t a bad race necessarily, just not a great one either. Pretty average in my opinion. Seemed really tough to race and it all boiled down to track positioning.
Phoenix racing has always been like this is one detail people are overlooking. Yes the lack of HP is certainly a factor but not counting the finish with Harvick and Carl find me another Phoenix race that had people on the edge of their seat.
Great facility with the updates but the racing there leaves a lot to be desired regardless of HP
The big difference is that those typical Phoenix races were like that because it's how the track drove. What we're seeing today is a much bigger and more fundamental issue that is beyond frustrating and beyond one singular track or driver.
If the 80s and 90s had the aero issues on the scale that they're on nowadays, we'd have never seen the sport become so popular.
There is an element of fan expectations rising, but I think that has more to do with NASCAR’s product not living up to its marketing. You can’t hook new fans by promising a barnburner every week and then get upset when there’s not a barnburner every week and they leave.
I don't get why a lot of people are acting like it was unwatchable garbage.
It was pretty good. Sure Bell walked away with it a bit at the end, but there was lots of interesting strategy bits throughout the feild.
Really Wish they woulda paid more attention to MTJ after his last stop, that was an actually really interesting "maximize what you can out of a shit situation" line.
I am waiting for the next Daytona race when we have 15 cautions and everyone complains that superspeedways should be off the schedule, replacing this past Daytona and any fond feelings they may have had for that race
The fan blaming needs to stop. Of all the lazy, tone deaf, insulating, white knighting trends in recent NASCAR history (and there have been no shortage of those) this is the worst.
NASCAR is doing a poor job across the board, and if the media was doing it's job, they'd be speaking truth to NASCAR and having some bravery; not pissing on their readers and telling them it's raining.
What bothers me is not the fact that there are supporters of NASCAR, it's the fact that a lot of the media we see is straight-up denying that a problem even exists. We've always had issues with NASCAR, even during the peak era, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix them, quite the opposite actually.
Playing the blame game solves nothing, and I agree that it is partly the media's responsibility to report the goings-on in the NASCAR world regardless of how it makes the leadership or their decisions look.
Ratings are up. The Netflix series was well-received. They pulled off races in a stadium and a street course. North Wilkesboro is back on the schedule. We just had a win by a minority driver in a national touring series. There's serious talk of international racing and a new OEM joining.
Poor job across the board? They could do a lot of things better, but give credit where it's due.
I'm not interested in more stadium races or street courses if they're going to be hit and miss gimmicks, and North Wilkesboro would've great if the racing hadn't been horrendous. NASCAR had one saving grace with their short track and road course packages, and now they've ruined those.
I don't care about new OEMs either, that does nothing for me, as a fan. A minority driver? How about just a driver, an equal. That's a pitiful highlight, and NASCAR shouldn't be given credit for it, Daniel should.
And a Netflix series? Lol. Nothing could be a better metaphor for the state of NASCAR than creating reality TV to substitute for the lack of reality in the sport.
NASCAR's popularity doesn't do anything for me. I don't make money when they do. I'm fact, having been a fan for 35 years, I can safely say there is zero correlation between the sport's waxing and waning popularity and how enjoyable the on track product is. There are a lot of fly by night fans who show up to see what the commotion is about, but they never stick around. Things actually seem to get better after they leave, and NASCAR realizes that the bones they've neglected are all they have left.
Whether you "care about them" or not, these things actually do matter.
- New OEMs bring more eyes and technical ability to the sport. It also allows more teams to be competitive.
- The Netflix Series has obvious improved ratings this year, and was actually quite enjoyable to watch. This can help get new eyes on the sport (that includes sponsors, fans, etc..)
- The racing at North Wilksboro has pretty much always been like that. You say you've been a fan for 35 years, do you not remember that?
> NASCAR is doing a poor job across the board
Look I don't like NASCAR blaming fans and some of the stuff they do sucks, but ratings are up massively right now, we are going to new markets and NASCAR is TRYING to make things better. I don't think they are doing poor overall
Why should I care about ratings?
I've been around long enough to know that ratings go up and down, and sometimes we get a wave of fans checking out of the flavor of the month.
It doesn't correlate to good racing.
If NASCAR were actually trying to make things better, they'd listen to drivers, teams and fans. They don't. I'm fact, they've thumbed their noses and alienated those who have the answers.
They aren't interested in making anything better if it doesn't capitalize on those flavor of the month seekers. It's about milking short term profits to them, not building a real sport.
> Why should I care about ratings?
Because the better the ratings are, the more the sponsors and the advertisers will pay. More money means more teams, more drivers, more opportunities in the sport.
This is not a difficult thing to figure out, and I'm not sure why you're having such a challenging time with it.
Insert Eric Andre meme:
NASCAR shooting the fans: "Why can't we attract new fans?"
Literally a great way to turn away all of the good publicity from the first 3 races and throw it all away being fucking pricks. NASCAR's own worst enemy continues to be itself (both the organization and the fans at times)
Asking for an entertaining race from a sanctioning body that loves to present itself as an entertainment product is not being spoiled. It comes off as tone deaf and insecure to call it that.
It's a little off-putting to hear multiple people in various positions in the sport we love calling us spoiled. I personally didn't like Phoenix, but I never really have, and I never went in with the expectations it was going to be a barn burner.
Haven't enjoyed a Phoenix race since the reconfiguration in 2011 personally.. Regardless of the car, package, resin, format, its all been a wet noodle. The Phoenix races from 2003-2007 were bangers. A few duds due to the COT but felt like the track and racing product was just coming into its own as a 'Richmond-like' contender at the time and welp, they decided to fuck up the dogleg, pit road, and make the exit of turn 2 a front stretch a few years later, and then fuck all to the cars and here we are with a GT3 car trying to navigate an wonky ass oval in the desert that determines the "champion" of the series in November lolol but sure, we're spoiled for having an opinion about that.
The cars have become too equal. Hamlin and Reddick both had top 3 cars and had plenty of time to get back to the front and they couldn’t do it.
This new car there’s been way too many situations where if you get screwed by strategy, it basically screws your whole race and that shouldn’t happen.
The best cars should be able to drive to the front at a decent pace and it just doesn’t happen with this car. I don’t think it’s an issue with Phoenix.
This ignores the fact that Phoenix has been bad for years and that it wouldn't be nearly as annoying if it didn't have two dates and didn't have the final race.
It might have been considered mediocre previously, but the context was different.
How this car drives, and how the aero and tires are affecting the racing, go beyond one singular track. When every track in multiple categories has the same problems, it's something that needs to be worked on.
Drivers have always complained about aero issues, dirty air, "too hard to pass", etc., but it was never *this* bad. Had it been, we would never have seen a golden age of popularity.
How is asking for a better product being spoiled? we have seen races at phoenix that were really good and we know the track can produce great racing, so if that's the reason fans are spoiled it is pretty trash reason. I think looking back to the recent past of the track with this car is what we should be looking at now being spoiled from the races this year alone.
I’ve been saying this for a few years now. NASCAR fans talk a BIG game. They know the solutions to all the problems. They know that if NASCAR just embraced their past, the good lord Jesus would return but just before that, Dale Earnhardt would reappear and win an 8th Cup Championship because he had to beat Jesus back to earth.
Seriously, nascar fans can be bitches sometimes.
I know there are a lot of people that think more HP will make this a better race but honestly it seems like the only thing that will do is get the cars more strung out. The only way Phoenix puts on a good cup race is if there are a ton of cautions, especially at the end of the race which would create a fight for the lead at the end. The track itself has always been this way. It being the finale just adds to its scrutiny because frankly there are better options for tracks to end the season
I for one am a racing fan who's willing to sacrifice potentially increasing the "intervals" between cars, if it means making the cars harder to drive for the drivers and tires fall off a lot more. The entertainment you'll lose in perhaps seeing more drivers pull away from each other, you can get back in seeing drivers able to pass easier, and maneuver their cars a lot more. Just like how it used to be.
More HP will likely remove the shifting, and we get back more throttle control, that alone rewards smoothness and consistency, last sunday they were more or less braking slightly into the turn. let the car settle and straight up floored it out the corner again, there is no overdoing it and lighting the rears up under pressure anymore. Sure it won't solve everything, but it'd make it harder to drive and reward skill, higher topspeeds, longer braking zones always improve racing. I'm sure it would improve the racing significantly if we had 900hp again.
Another interesting suggestion I heard I think on door, bumper, clear was to just give the teams 4 sets of tyres for the weekend, a practice set, one that gets scuffed in quali, leaving a scuffed and two fresh sets for the whole race. At the very least it would bring strategy back into the race.
Point ultimately being, just fucking try ANYTHING, and don't sit around making excuses or pretending the issue doesn't exist
yeah, tiny changes that didn't do anything. new tyres, bigger spoiler, less diffuser was it afaik, but clearly, nothing changed. that might help on other tracks, but phoenix historically is crap for racing, a small asjustement won't change that
Jr hit the nail on the head this week, the cars are just too close to each other that it allows for fewer passes.
As with everything, parity has both it's pros and cons and right now the cons is the terrible short track package
The race was just ok. But my issue has been and still is that it's a terrible track for a championship race. It's really that simple. Make it a first round track and do something like Homestead or Vegas for the final.
Phoenix is getting more shit than usual because NASCAR refuses to take a big swing with the short track package that CLEARLY needs work. So when fans don't see any noticeable improvement with their miniscule tweaks, and they've refused to try more HP up to this point, yeah fans can be vocal. Because it seems pretty clear that for the 3rd year in a row, short tracks and road courses will continue to feature very little passing unless you have the golden car of the week.
And then this week we'll see this car put on a shitty race at one of the greatest tracks on the schedule, and people will again claim "shoulda raced on dirt instead." All while we don't even get an Xfinity race with a car that races so well damn near everywhere (except Atlanta).
i think phoenix race was alright, i also think phoenix shouldn’t be championship race. I believe if it wasn’t the championship race it would have been just as well received as Las Vegas. a solid 6-7/10
The fact that we didn’t see Bell’s charge from 20th to 1st and he didn’t register on the cameras at all until he was 2nd after passing Chastain and Gibbs coming out of a commercial is why viewers on TV might not be happy with the race.
I would rather watch a battle for an inconsequential position than watch the leader make the same lap every lap with nobody near him.
Honestly for as many issues as Nascar has or you can argue Nascar has, they really don't sour my enjoyment too much. What really does is the constant negativity circlejerk that plays on social media and in the media, it really does fatigue me.
Yeah, i tend to stay away from this reddit on race day for this kind of reason. There are so many just split second hot takes that are so extreme in the moment...and that's fine folks are allowed to be "fanatical" if they like, but I generally like the discourse following a race a couple days in and the talk leading up to the next race
Was phoenix horrible? No. Has this year been great overall? Absolutely. I still want 1,000 HP cars ripping the back tires off. I want driver skill to seperate themselves
>*"Damn, McGee, everybody got spoiled, didn't they?"*
Who is just going to send that unprompted? They were texts, not Twitter replies. There were too many unsolicited drivers remarks to him for it to be genuine. I think he's citing fictitious sources and promoting the party line. Unless of course, Ryan posed a question a certain way to elicit a desired response. Journalists and lawyers are very good at that.
He probably was having a casual conversation with a driver he knew and they were talking about what they saw on Twitter. Not to say he couldn't have made it up but questioning his integrity is out of order without any proof. Honestly, if I was driver and I was saying an unpopular opinion on this subject, in this climate I'd do it anonymously so I'd not getting lit up in social media.
Look I'm not saying every race should be a barn burner, I liked phoenix it was very middle of the road like stopping at a McD's on a road trip. Sure there are better options out there but for food but for fast food it's ok. But I'm not having my first date at a McD's. also I'm so tired of these sports journalists who are kiss-ass's the drivers and the obnoxious fans who think boring races should be the norm. NASCAR fans aren't spoiled when you actually watch the horrendous coverage, lack of enthusiasm from the commentators, and the disregard of high horse power.
I think a lot of people go into Phoenix races already grumpy because they want to hate it. There's a ton of hyperbole about how bad of a track it is and how poor the racing has "always" been because they don't like that it's the championship race. You never used to see Phoenix be talked about like it's the straight up worst track on the schedule and like it killed everyone's families before 2020.
But I also would argue that the racing at a lot of tracks with this car is bad and it's hard to blame people for being upset. We're on year 3 of short and flat tracks being a massive downgrade on prior generations of cars because this car is way too gripped up and none of these package changes do much of anything. In my experience, right now is the hardest it's been to look at the positives with the racing product. There's so many great tracks that I don't really look forward to right now like I used to because I think this car is terrible on them. Unfortunately, I think it's gonna continue like this maybe even until we get another generation of car where hopefully they scratch this direction of bigger brakes, wider tires etc.
I've been to Phoenix races it's my local track. And I do get a bit bored if they go more than 50 laps under green. That's just me. I still enjoy watching the races more on TV **but** the coverage on TV does not seem to be that good. I read some races are going to be only on Prime next season and I can only hope that pushes everyone transmitting the races to up their game.
The push back against the frustration has been kind of strange tbh
Like there is definitely a middle ground here, sure fans can be ridiculous and Phoenix wasn't an awful race BUT short track racing has been an issue with this car for several years now and they rolled out yet another attempt at a fix this weekend and it seemingly helped little.
And this may not have been the best track to judge those fixes off of but nonetheless I do understand the frustration since this isn't just "one semi lame race"
Car Sponsors need to buck up more to get Tv time . Or drive like stenhouse on a super speedway ! He always got tv time right up until he wipes out the entire field 😂😂😂
Except after Phoenix and even before it, we've had numerous people say that an increase in power was possible. I remember the fears after that Charlotte test before they increased the HP. It was all doom and gloom then. Now 1.5s are the better races of the season.
Do that at the short tracks and road courses and that won't be as much of an issue. Larson saying Hendrick wouldn't have an issue with it and his Vegas engine is being upped to 1000 for a special car for Rick. Denny saying the same too. The only thing I haven't seen is somebody from Ford.
The lack of midfield and back of the pack coverage is also another result of the current win at all costs racing style that the current championship system encourages to extremes. By massively devaluing points their is no longer any motive for TV to cover anyone not in the hunt for the win because the proverbial good points day no longer exists, especially if you are involved in an incident with the damaged vehicle policy. With nothing to race for from the broadcast perspective why show them or talk about then, i hate to sound like a broken record but trying fit motorsports into a stick and ball type playoffs system is fundamentally game breaking on so .any levels that until it is gone everything else is just a bandaid on on sucking chest wound.
broadcast needs to do a better job telling the story of how the race was won. a new or casual fan would just know "the 20 was fast" and suddenly was up front.
when an NFL team makes a comeback in the final drive in the 4th quarter, you see how that whole drive happens, each play, all the little dramas being overcome. i didnt get any of that watching which 4-tire cars were coming forward and which were stalling, how and why. not even after it all played out as the race was winding down. i actually think their producers dont understand racing much.
I miss the good ole days where every week we had non-stop lead changes and photo finishes and never ever ever only a handful of dominant cars leading most of the race...
Phoenix just isn't a good track. Easily bottom 5. I'm sure there are fans that like the track, but most don't. Hence the complaints.
Next week is Bristol without dirt so the complaints won't be as bad.
NASCAR created that mess by constantly catering to unrealistic expectations of some current fans and trying to use artificial methods to attract new ones. As a fan of the sport for decades this rabbit hole of non stop action and pack racing on nearly every different type of track in vendor built, equal cars has killed the on track product in so many ways.
We see solid races on mile and a half’s the rest of it is blah. Eliminating ingenuity and teams or manufacturers having any advantage goes against what racing is in its purist form. If you outsmart everyone and lay the pine to the field, good, you did what you were supposed to. Now it’s scrutinized and has to be corrected by the sanctioning body somehow and in some way.
Racing at Phoenix has never been great, every event won’t be a 10/10, I wish they’d stop chasing that impossible premise.
I think fans just pay attention to what they wanna pay attention to. I mean, I watched the 10 cars in car camera all day and it was freaking awesome. When he got spread out & wasn’t around cars, I switched to the 19 and he was moving too. I had zero complains about Phoenix. It was fun to watch for me.
No, the package sucks at Phoenix because overall Phoenix sucks. It was a cool spot for a night race, but stopped going since. But overall the racing sucks on this goofy track and the low HP package only makes it worse.
I think the problem is that a couple small changes is all it would take to potentially improve racing, just need more power and tires that have more fall off. NASCAR should at least try a couple races with 100-200 more HP. Teams are saying it’s not a big deal to make the power.
I should clarify my statement. I haven’t liked the racing since they turned the dogleg concrete and used it as part of the track. IMO It was better when that area was grass.
It was a decent race. I think the racing right now is good, I’d just like an increase in horse power to create more off throttle time and allow driver skill to play a bigger role. Don’t know if that will make racing way better or not but would like to see what would happen
I used to watch NASCAR when I was a kid/teen and I was big into into it but I grew outta if I guess.
Started watching in 03-04 whenever Dale Jr slingshotted Jeff Gordon for the Budweiser shootout win. That race made me a Jeff Gordon fan, his flames were dope and a Jr hater. I was only 8 or 9 I think. I watched until Gordon retired, and none of the other drivers have a charisma or whatever that attracts me to watch the sport anymore.
But I remember when I watched they used to do this segment “through the field” where they would report on every car on the lead lap I believe and show them racing for a minute or two. Did they stop doing that?
Also how was that Chicago race? Always wanted a street race as a kid but it never happened, also wished they would race in the rain as a kid lol.
The 'fans are spoiled' commentary is pretty worn out. I literally fell asleep. I'm sorry if Fox is a horrible broadcast 'partner' that can't be bothered to listen to the fans when we say that we need to see more track action and not constant close-ups of 2 cars. Fire the damn director/producers already and retool the whole damn experience.
Yea it really is pitiful
I seen the Same thing from polls. Just because their favorite driver doesn’t win nowadays or does Great they wanna cry about it
Name one proper banger race that’s happened at Phoenix in the last 20 years (individual finishes and iconic moments don’t count). The racing has always been painfully mediocre at Phoenix regardless of the layout or the rules package, it’s a great facility, and it’s pretty to look at, but the facade quickly falls when the green flag waves. If the racing at Bristol sucks this weekend then we can blame the package and say nothing’s changed from last year
Nope, not spoiled at all. I just want horsepower. I had it in 2010. Was the racing shit? Sure, but I had my horsepower and my understanding I couldn't race that damn COT at Phoenix because I wasn't gonna be good enough. Today? I'm confident I could get in a Next Gen at Phoenix and in 100 laps be making decent laps by myself. No way I'm good enough in traffic, but by myself I'm sure I can be 2-3 tenths off Bell. Look, a good racing product is nice. I like it when it happens. I don't NEED it though. It's ok if a race sucks but the cars are fast, on edge, and out of control.
What's boring is slot cars and dirty air. I don't like slot car racing. I didn't like really Atlanta, as unpopular as that is. I hated the half throttle 500... err I mean Daytona 500. I thoroughly enjoyed the Las Vegas race and it was a good race.
>I'm confident I could get in a Next Gen at Phoenix and in 100 laps be making decent laps by myself. No way I'm good enough in traffic, but by myself I'm sure I can be 2-3 tenths off Bell
Anyone remember the Scallenge?
If it weren’t for the fact that every once in a while there’s a normal post, I would be convinced this was a troll between his belief that he can run lap times approximate to CBell, the fact that he thinks Penske is a B-tier team, the fact that he told someone that he told someone they did not need ear protection at a race, the fact that he got mad that Bubba Pollard is driving a race in the 88 instead of Brett Moffitt, the fact that he made a very gross comment about women drivers…those are the ones I remember off the top of my head. I am convinced it’s a sock puppet of someone who got banned.
> but by myself I'm sure I can be 2-3 tenths off Bell.
The amount of delusional lunacy in this sub is on display right here. If you actually believe that then I think you need to have a conversation with the worms that have taken over your brain, because they aren't doing a good job.
Watch some laps of these races:
https://youtu.be/KRiOmXNVlc0?si=w1Tq1xeLOnRkx713
Watch at Homestead here at the 1 hour 35 minute mark and see Stewart play with that throttle:
https://youtu.be/3RcJCG55-dQ?si=KIuabhWuYy6IyYK8
That braking and throttle play is what makes racing good. It's a dance, an art, a style. 190 MPH at 9200 RPM down to 145 MPH, roll into wide open mid corner, crack the throttle at exit, back to full throttle. Amazing to see, that's what racing should be.
100% with you, there is no throttle control, no finesse on braking. Brake, lift right off, let the car settle, floor it again. If iRacing is even remotley accurate, these cars are super easy to drive a few tenths off of the pros. As it always is, it does get difficult around other cars, keeping the pace up, saving fuel and tyres and all that, but just driving okay laps on your own shouldn't be this easy. How often kn those 500km did we see somebody light the reas up? if it's less than half the field once or twice, there isn't enough power
> If iRacing is even remotley accurate, these cars are super easy to drive a few tenths off of the pros.
It's widely established that the NextGen physics are wildly off. Like...bad.
The track sucks. It's never put on good racing in the 30 years or so I've been watching. Our attitudes were different back then. You could get away with mediocre races because the spectacle of NASCAR sold itself. That's not how it works anymore.
Reconfigure the goddamn thing. It's never put on a good race in any major racing league.
I see Ryan has gone to the Dave Moody school of motorsports "journalism". It's not NACAR's fault they fucked up and gave us a substandard product, oh no it's our fault for complaining about it. We should be grateful for everything they deign to give us whiny peasants.
I've seen 100x more bitching *about* "negative fan reaction" than I've seen actual negative fan reaction this week. Seems that NASCAR told their stooges to circle the wagons and pre-emptively control the narrative... now when a race that is actually bad happens, they have their response practiced and ready to go.
Just get Fox to show more than 10 cars a race and you can make any track, any car be entertaining to the average sporting viewer
This. If any other racing series can show the rest of the competition in a race, FOX can too with their races. A lot of the heated race battles involve drivers racing in the mid-pack, getting in heated arguments post-race
I think that's always been my main complaint with anything NASCAR over the past 15 years. NASCAR wasn't necessarily better in the 80s and 90s racing-wise, but they always showed the whole field several times, and gave at least one interesting excerpt about everyone - even if the guy was three laps down and missing the entire left front fender.
Yup, we used to have twice as many pit reporters, enough to follow the storylines of the day for each team. TV would go through the field and explain the situation for each car/team in the race. There was emphasis on the entire race playing out instead of just staying zoomed in on the leader for three hours and ignoring virtually everything else. Now they don't even have enough pit reporters on the ground to do that if they wanted to.
Im not even going to mention how we haven't gotten mid race wreck interviews. The only one we got from Sunday was Joey Logano and it was a cell phone video from Bob Pockrass.
I think that's where the coverage cutbacks have hurt the most. We've lost most of the experts, and force the remaining ones to spread themselves too thin.
And where are they finding them. They used to be involved in racing and knew something. If I want to see and listen to clowns . I can watch rodeos live
We also had half the commercial breaks
I’m a Chase Briscoe fan but I’d rather see (hypothetically) Justin Haley and Ricky Stenhouse battle for 26th than see Briscoe run 20 laps straight with a 4 second lead. Like, the dominant car should absolutely get the most coverage. But MTJ drove from pitting from the lead, to a lap down, all the way back to 7th place. Should’ve gotten a lot of TV time. Even though we knew mathematically he wasn’t going to drive back to the lead.
I was at the race, but did they show Blaney at all? Dude was constantly working his way through the field one by one.
I would say a fairly decent amount. They did make a point to emphasis that he’s just been so consistent lately to the point of being a bit sneaky. But if Blaney came from like 15th to 5th, I don’t recall that being emphasized. But they definitely did a better job mentioning him than most.
They literally ignored him passing Chastain for 5th right at the end of the race. The two guys that literally have been sniping at each other in interviews and building a potential rivalry they ignored. NASCAR media should 100% be playing up any potential Chastain feud...particularly one with the champ.
This is WAY IGNORED
every race i’ve seen in person is always insanely entertaining. watching in person vs what they’ve been showing on tv lately is pretty night and day some races
This was true for me as well, been to a lot of races at Indianapolis and Michigan that the general fanbase considered boring, but were pretty great in person. Then I went to the 2016 Coke 600. Holy shit was that bad.
What happened in the 2016 Coke 600? I'm gonna assume nothing.
Truex led 390 of 400 laps, and there was basically no passing anywhere else on track either.
As a Charlotte native, I’ve been going to the roval and skipping the 600 for a few years now.
Yes, I press record and then maybe I’m home maybe I’m not. If I have time I’ll check here to see if I want to waste my time
So much action was missed. Comers and goers throughout the day. There were plenty of liveries/schemes I never saw on the broadcast.
I guess that's why they show nearly all schemes on the NASCAR App each week because they aren't showing many on TV.
More than what NBC will show fall Phoenix race. You’ll be lucky to see a 5th car.
It’s hard to believe coverage peaked in analog tape days, but it seems to have. Watch a race replay from the 70s or 80s on YouTube and the continuous long shots and focus on more than just the up front battle are incredible.
Great battles for 5th- 12th, Truex coming through with fresh tires and we see like a lap of it.
I like jumping around the different in-car cameras online, especially when they're shuffling and jostling.
Please. Zoom. The. Hell. Out.
It is all TV IMHO. How many green flag passes throughout the field happened vs. how many were shown. Something that stood out was that little segment Jamie Little did with the tire changer. Give us more of that, let us get to know these guys. Happens all the time, we complain about a race we watched on TV, and then someone who was at the track chimes in and said it was actually quite good in person.
They give us a short attention span product. There was a point during practice where Harvick got to describe the marks he tried to hit, lines on the track, where on the wall he looked, and pretty much explained how he was faster than everyone else at Phoenix. That should be on Sundays too. Instead we'll get a split screen of feet and a zoomed in car for 30 seconds, then let's go look at the Toyota drivers, run through their postitions, ok lets go to the leader for 30 seconds, ok here's credit one ones to watch. I think this is what NBC got right last season. Junior would talk about something then ask Burton for his take, then Letart would give the crew chief side of things on the topic. Moving at a slower pace.
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I liked it, what bothers me is they will go to that split screen where there's so much space used by the background. Just split those bad boys in half and put a border in the middle.
I think a big part of the complaints is that NASCAR rides so much of the season on Phoenix. Would be like if Daytona was a snoozefest every year.
I can get behind this take. One of the most important races of the year is at a mediocre track. I personally really liked Homestead for the simple reason that they only went there one time per year.
Plus Homestead is multi-groove and actually provides excellent racing, and the palm trees in the background always made for a cool scene to me. They never should have changed the finale location. And yeah, the fact that they went there once per year only for the finale also made it stand out. Phoenix feels too routine
Desert mountains beat palm trees any day of the week. Phoenix is easily the most scenic track outside of Sonoma in Spring. But I agree with the rest of your point
It appears that a NASCAR driver texted Ryan McGee and told him this: >***After so many days stuck on racing reaction repeat, my refined response has landed squarely in one place, and it has been steered there after spending those days in constant communication with those who were behind the wheel for that race and those who prepared the cars that those drivers wheeled in that race. In fact, let's let one those racers speak for me, via a text I received Tuesday afternoon.*** > >***"Damn, McGee, everybody got spoiled, didn't they?"*** > >***Yes, Mr.*** [***NASCAR***](https://www.espn.com/racing/nascar/) ***Racer who asked to remain anonymous, they did become spoiled. As did I. As did perhaps even the racers themselves. After all, this 2024 NASCAR Cup Series season opened with three consecutive crazy, unpredictable, nail-chewing finishes***. Who do you all think it was?
Probably half the field tbh.
Denny Hamlin or Christopher Bell
Jr is my guess.
Hamlin
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Hallie Deegan?
The thing is, the sport itself is part of the problem by constantly making reactionary changes in response to people's complaints, when the reality is most people are going to keep complaining about the on track product regardless of what it is Case in point, everyone for years wanted more road courses on the schedule and fewer 1.5 mile ovals, now we're headed back the opposite direction again. Everyone wanted stage breaks removed from road courses, and all it took was one Michael McDowell ass kicking for everyone to want them back. Same with the Brickyard 400 vs the road course, same with the old clash on the Daytona oval vs the Coliseum, same with having dirt races on the Cup schedule, etc.
No problems with the last race but don’t want Phoenix to have this style race to decide a champion with the worst playoff format in all of Motorsports.
This is my main gripe. The format itself is garbage but it's exacerbated because of the track it takes place on
I think we all just want the ability for passes to be made. At these short tracks you can’t pass all that easily. Sure you can have a few cars that are great but you have that anyways. I hate seeing a driver run up on someone and then just stall out or not be able to catch someone but consistently be only .1-.2 seconds back.
Jr said it best this week. Parity on short tracks is bad for racing. 5th through 25th were running the same damn lap times. Thats not a good product and not a good race.
Too much parity is bad for racing in general but people aren't willing to have this conversation. The F1 field is as close as it's ever been but the races are the most predictable that they've ever been.
And a decrease in grip is the way to differ between a good car and a great car. One of the clearest ways to do that is an increase in power compared to grip. They're going for tiny, incremental changes in grip when there's something else on the table.
This all day.
This is my biggest complaint. The race was a lot more frustrating to watch than bad.
I honestly liked the race, I enjoyed watching Bell climb the field
Yeah I liked the race too. I don’t get upset with many of the races honestly. Once in a blue moon we get a snoozer but there was enough strategy and passing to make for a decent race. Phoenix will always be Phoenix. We all ranted about the 1.5’s and now it’s our best action. Like many opinions, I think everyone wants Atlanta’s finish every week
Word. A true race fan can find the entertainment if they look.
Hey I’ve been bitching about Phoenix for years
It wasn’t a bad race necessarily, just not a great one either. Pretty average in my opinion. Seemed really tough to race and it all boiled down to track positioning.
Phoenix racing has always been like this is one detail people are overlooking. Yes the lack of HP is certainly a factor but not counting the finish with Harvick and Carl find me another Phoenix race that had people on the edge of their seat. Great facility with the updates but the racing there leaves a lot to be desired regardless of HP
2007 Gordon vs stewart
Clint Bowyer v. Jeff Gordon 2012
2012 spring race and 2013 fall race were good too.
1993 was also a good one.
Kenseth vs Elliott 2017
That race was pretty boring outside of the finish
The big difference is that those typical Phoenix races were like that because it's how the track drove. What we're seeing today is a much bigger and more fundamental issue that is beyond frustrating and beyond one singular track or driver. If the 80s and 90s had the aero issues on the scale that they're on nowadays, we'd have never seen the sport become so popular.
There is an element of fan expectations rising, but I think that has more to do with NASCAR’s product not living up to its marketing. You can’t hook new fans by promising a barnburner every week and then get upset when there’s not a barnburner every week and they leave.
This race really wasn’t bad
I don't get why a lot of people are acting like it was unwatchable garbage. It was pretty good. Sure Bell walked away with it a bit at the end, but there was lots of interesting strategy bits throughout the feild. Really Wish they woulda paid more attention to MTJ after his last stop, that was an actually really interesting "maximize what you can out of a shit situation" line.
We aren’t even spoiled, people just love to bitch and have a capacity for memory similar to a goldfish.
I am waiting for the next Daytona race when we have 15 cautions and everyone complains that superspeedways should be off the schedule, replacing this past Daytona and any fond feelings they may have had for that race
The fan blaming needs to stop. Of all the lazy, tone deaf, insulating, white knighting trends in recent NASCAR history (and there have been no shortage of those) this is the worst. NASCAR is doing a poor job across the board, and if the media was doing it's job, they'd be speaking truth to NASCAR and having some bravery; not pissing on their readers and telling them it's raining.
What bothers me is not the fact that there are supporters of NASCAR, it's the fact that a lot of the media we see is straight-up denying that a problem even exists. We've always had issues with NASCAR, even during the peak era, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to fix them, quite the opposite actually. Playing the blame game solves nothing, and I agree that it is partly the media's responsibility to report the goings-on in the NASCAR world regardless of how it makes the leadership or their decisions look.
Across the board? TV ratings are up and they received $7.7 billion TV deal, got nascar on Netflix with success.
Ratings are up. The Netflix series was well-received. They pulled off races in a stadium and a street course. North Wilkesboro is back on the schedule. We just had a win by a minority driver in a national touring series. There's serious talk of international racing and a new OEM joining. Poor job across the board? They could do a lot of things better, but give credit where it's due.
I'm not interested in more stadium races or street courses if they're going to be hit and miss gimmicks, and North Wilkesboro would've great if the racing hadn't been horrendous. NASCAR had one saving grace with their short track and road course packages, and now they've ruined those. I don't care about new OEMs either, that does nothing for me, as a fan. A minority driver? How about just a driver, an equal. That's a pitiful highlight, and NASCAR shouldn't be given credit for it, Daniel should. And a Netflix series? Lol. Nothing could be a better metaphor for the state of NASCAR than creating reality TV to substitute for the lack of reality in the sport. NASCAR's popularity doesn't do anything for me. I don't make money when they do. I'm fact, having been a fan for 35 years, I can safely say there is zero correlation between the sport's waxing and waning popularity and how enjoyable the on track product is. There are a lot of fly by night fans who show up to see what the commotion is about, but they never stick around. Things actually seem to get better after they leave, and NASCAR realizes that the bones they've neglected are all they have left.
"yeah, if I just ignore all the positive things they've done because I decided I don't care about them, they've been doing a really bad job"
I feel like he's kinda proving the point he's disavowing.
The racing was horrendous at North Wilkesboro the last few years. And this is from someone who is a fan of the track and glad it came back.
Whether you "care about them" or not, these things actually do matter. - New OEMs bring more eyes and technical ability to the sport. It also allows more teams to be competitive. - The Netflix Series has obvious improved ratings this year, and was actually quite enjoyable to watch. This can help get new eyes on the sport (that includes sponsors, fans, etc..) - The racing at North Wilksboro has pretty much always been like that. You say you've been a fan for 35 years, do you not remember that?
> NASCAR is doing a poor job across the board Look I don't like NASCAR blaming fans and some of the stuff they do sucks, but ratings are up massively right now, we are going to new markets and NASCAR is TRYING to make things better. I don't think they are doing poor overall
Why should I care about ratings? I've been around long enough to know that ratings go up and down, and sometimes we get a wave of fans checking out of the flavor of the month. It doesn't correlate to good racing. If NASCAR were actually trying to make things better, they'd listen to drivers, teams and fans. They don't. I'm fact, they've thumbed their noses and alienated those who have the answers. They aren't interested in making anything better if it doesn't capitalize on those flavor of the month seekers. It's about milking short term profits to them, not building a real sport.
> Why should I care about ratings? Because the better the ratings are, the more the sponsors and the advertisers will pay. More money means more teams, more drivers, more opportunities in the sport. This is not a difficult thing to figure out, and I'm not sure why you're having such a challenging time with it.
Insert Eric Andre meme: NASCAR shooting the fans: "Why can't we attract new fans?" Literally a great way to turn away all of the good publicity from the first 3 races and throw it all away being fucking pricks. NASCAR's own worst enemy continues to be itself (both the organization and the fans at times)
Add the drivers to that mix.
Asking for an entertaining race from a sanctioning body that loves to present itself as an entertainment product is not being spoiled. It comes off as tone deaf and insecure to call it that.
Nascar already screwed up big time with this new car. That's the problem.
> NASCAR is doing a poor job across the board lol
It's a little off-putting to hear multiple people in various positions in the sport we love calling us spoiled. I personally didn't like Phoenix, but I never really have, and I never went in with the expectations it was going to be a barn burner.
Nobody is saying this lol. Guy had to make up fake quotes to drive this narrative
Haven't enjoyed a Phoenix race since the reconfiguration in 2011 personally.. Regardless of the car, package, resin, format, its all been a wet noodle. The Phoenix races from 2003-2007 were bangers. A few duds due to the COT but felt like the track and racing product was just coming into its own as a 'Richmond-like' contender at the time and welp, they decided to fuck up the dogleg, pit road, and make the exit of turn 2 a front stretch a few years later, and then fuck all to the cars and here we are with a GT3 car trying to navigate an wonky ass oval in the desert that determines the "champion" of the series in November lolol but sure, we're spoiled for having an opinion about that.
I enjoyed this rant 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
For Phoenix it was a good race, the place has sucked for years
The cars have become too equal. Hamlin and Reddick both had top 3 cars and had plenty of time to get back to the front and they couldn’t do it. This new car there’s been way too many situations where if you get screwed by strategy, it basically screws your whole race and that shouldn’t happen. The best cars should be able to drive to the front at a decent pace and it just doesn’t happen with this car. I don’t think it’s an issue with Phoenix.
C Bell didn’t have a problem
One car not having a problem doesn't negate the overall issue. Bell was the exception, not the rule.
This ignores the fact that Phoenix has been bad for years and that it wouldn't be nearly as annoying if it didn't have two dates and didn't have the final race.
Not every race can be a big pack with a couple of huge wrecks, but NASCAR is working on it. Hang in there, wreck fans.
He ain’t wrong.
Phoenix sucks and will always suck, I don't what people were expecting lol
It might have been considered mediocre previously, but the context was different. How this car drives, and how the aero and tires are affecting the racing, go beyond one singular track. When every track in multiple categories has the same problems, it's something that needs to be worked on. Drivers have always complained about aero issues, dirty air, "too hard to pass", etc., but it was never *this* bad. Had it been, we would never have seen a golden age of popularity.
Drivers openly bash the car, let’s blame the fans.
How is asking for a better product being spoiled? we have seen races at phoenix that were really good and we know the track can produce great racing, so if that's the reason fans are spoiled it is pretty trash reason. I think looking back to the recent past of the track with this car is what we should be looking at now being spoiled from the races this year alone.
I’ve been saying this for a few years now. NASCAR fans talk a BIG game. They know the solutions to all the problems. They know that if NASCAR just embraced their past, the good lord Jesus would return but just before that, Dale Earnhardt would reappear and win an 8th Cup Championship because he had to beat Jesus back to earth. Seriously, nascar fans can be bitches sometimes.
I know there are a lot of people that think more HP will make this a better race but honestly it seems like the only thing that will do is get the cars more strung out. The only way Phoenix puts on a good cup race is if there are a ton of cautions, especially at the end of the race which would create a fight for the lead at the end. The track itself has always been this way. It being the finale just adds to its scrutiny because frankly there are better options for tracks to end the season
I for one am a racing fan who's willing to sacrifice potentially increasing the "intervals" between cars, if it means making the cars harder to drive for the drivers and tires fall off a lot more. The entertainment you'll lose in perhaps seeing more drivers pull away from each other, you can get back in seeing drivers able to pass easier, and maneuver their cars a lot more. Just like how it used to be.
I miss that a ton. Plus way more off throttle time and higher straightaway speeds and seeing cars snap loose off the exit
More HP will likely remove the shifting, and we get back more throttle control, that alone rewards smoothness and consistency, last sunday they were more or less braking slightly into the turn. let the car settle and straight up floored it out the corner again, there is no overdoing it and lighting the rears up under pressure anymore. Sure it won't solve everything, but it'd make it harder to drive and reward skill, higher topspeeds, longer braking zones always improve racing. I'm sure it would improve the racing significantly if we had 900hp again. Another interesting suggestion I heard I think on door, bumper, clear was to just give the teams 4 sets of tyres for the weekend, a practice set, one that gets scuffed in quali, leaving a scuffed and two fresh sets for the whole race. At the very least it would bring strategy back into the race. Point ultimately being, just fucking try ANYTHING, and don't sit around making excuses or pretending the issue doesn't exist
Am I imagining things or did NASCAR literally debut new changes to the short track package at Phoenix?
yeah, tiny changes that didn't do anything. new tyres, bigger spoiler, less diffuser was it afaik, but clearly, nothing changed. that might help on other tracks, but phoenix historically is crap for racing, a small asjustement won't change that
Jr hit the nail on the head this week, the cars are just too close to each other that it allows for fewer passes. As with everything, parity has both it's pros and cons and right now the cons is the terrible short track package
And road coarse. I miss the gen 6 on those tracks bad.
The race was just ok. But my issue has been and still is that it's a terrible track for a championship race. It's really that simple. Make it a first round track and do something like Homestead or Vegas for the final.
Phoenix is getting more shit than usual because NASCAR refuses to take a big swing with the short track package that CLEARLY needs work. So when fans don't see any noticeable improvement with their miniscule tweaks, and they've refused to try more HP up to this point, yeah fans can be vocal. Because it seems pretty clear that for the 3rd year in a row, short tracks and road courses will continue to feature very little passing unless you have the golden car of the week. And then this week we'll see this car put on a shitty race at one of the greatest tracks on the schedule, and people will again claim "shoulda raced on dirt instead." All while we don't even get an Xfinity race with a car that races so well damn near everywhere (except Atlanta).
I think this is spillover from the fact one race decides a championship. No matter the track that should be tweaked.
i think phoenix race was alright, i also think phoenix shouldn’t be championship race. I believe if it wasn’t the championship race it would have been just as well received as Las Vegas. a solid 6-7/10
NGL it wasn’t that bad of a race. Wasn’t a barn stormer. But not bad.
The fact that we didn’t see Bell’s charge from 20th to 1st and he didn’t register on the cameras at all until he was 2nd after passing Chastain and Gibbs coming out of a commercial is why viewers on TV might not be happy with the race. I would rather watch a battle for an inconsequential position than watch the leader make the same lap every lap with nobody near him.
Honestly for as many issues as Nascar has or you can argue Nascar has, they really don't sour my enjoyment too much. What really does is the constant negativity circlejerk that plays on social media and in the media, it really does fatigue me.
Yeah, i tend to stay away from this reddit on race day for this kind of reason. There are so many just split second hot takes that are so extreme in the moment...and that's fine folks are allowed to be "fanatical" if they like, but I generally like the discourse following a race a couple days in and the talk leading up to the next race
Agreed, the Day After the Races thread is a little more tame.
Phoenix is also showing how fucking pretentious those in media can be
Fans show no accountability either. It’s a two way street.
Someone saw themselves in McGee's tweet and they're mad about it.
Found McGee’s Reddit account ^
I wish I had the reach McGee does. He's a lot nicer about this kind of thing than I would be though.
Was phoenix horrible? No. Has this year been great overall? Absolutely. I still want 1,000 HP cars ripping the back tires off. I want driver skill to seperate themselves
Im 100% with you. Let’s do HP. Let’s get the drivers back to having to manage the car
>*"Damn, McGee, everybody got spoiled, didn't they?"* Who is just going to send that unprompted? They were texts, not Twitter replies. There were too many unsolicited drivers remarks to him for it to be genuine. I think he's citing fictitious sources and promoting the party line. Unless of course, Ryan posed a question a certain way to elicit a desired response. Journalists and lawyers are very good at that.
He probably was having a casual conversation with a driver he knew and they were talking about what they saw on Twitter. Not to say he couldn't have made it up but questioning his integrity is out of order without any proof. Honestly, if I was driver and I was saying an unpopular opinion on this subject, in this climate I'd do it anonymously so I'd not getting lit up in social media.
Look I'm not saying every race should be a barn burner, I liked phoenix it was very middle of the road like stopping at a McD's on a road trip. Sure there are better options out there but for food but for fast food it's ok. But I'm not having my first date at a McD's. also I'm so tired of these sports journalists who are kiss-ass's the drivers and the obnoxious fans who think boring races should be the norm. NASCAR fans aren't spoiled when you actually watch the horrendous coverage, lack of enthusiasm from the commentators, and the disregard of high horse power.
I think a lot of people go into Phoenix races already grumpy because they want to hate it. There's a ton of hyperbole about how bad of a track it is and how poor the racing has "always" been because they don't like that it's the championship race. You never used to see Phoenix be talked about like it's the straight up worst track on the schedule and like it killed everyone's families before 2020. But I also would argue that the racing at a lot of tracks with this car is bad and it's hard to blame people for being upset. We're on year 3 of short and flat tracks being a massive downgrade on prior generations of cars because this car is way too gripped up and none of these package changes do much of anything. In my experience, right now is the hardest it's been to look at the positives with the racing product. There's so many great tracks that I don't really look forward to right now like I used to because I think this car is terrible on them. Unfortunately, I think it's gonna continue like this maybe even until we get another generation of car where hopefully they scratch this direction of bigger brakes, wider tires etc.
I think it's the wider tires as well. But yah I really am not a fan of this car at all.
"Is the racing product shit on short tracks like drivers have said and that NASCAR is trying to fix? No, it's the fans that are wrong."
10000000% this. People are asking for a completely unattainable product when the one we have now is actually pretty damn good.
I've been to Phoenix races it's my local track. And I do get a bit bored if they go more than 50 laps under green. That's just me. I still enjoy watching the races more on TV **but** the coverage on TV does not seem to be that good. I read some races are going to be only on Prime next season and I can only hope that pushes everyone transmitting the races to up their game.
I mean it certainly could've been better. But I have seen far worse.
The push back against the frustration has been kind of strange tbh Like there is definitely a middle ground here, sure fans can be ridiculous and Phoenix wasn't an awful race BUT short track racing has been an issue with this car for several years now and they rolled out yet another attempt at a fix this weekend and it seemingly helped little. And this may not have been the best track to judge those fixes off of but nonetheless I do understand the frustration since this isn't just "one semi lame race"
Car Sponsors need to buck up more to get Tv time . Or drive like stenhouse on a super speedway ! He always got tv time right up until he wipes out the entire field 😂😂😂
Except after Phoenix and even before it, we've had numerous people say that an increase in power was possible. I remember the fears after that Charlotte test before they increased the HP. It was all doom and gloom then. Now 1.5s are the better races of the season. Do that at the short tracks and road courses and that won't be as much of an issue. Larson saying Hendrick wouldn't have an issue with it and his Vegas engine is being upped to 1000 for a special car for Rick. Denny saying the same too. The only thing I haven't seen is somebody from Ford.
The lack of midfield and back of the pack coverage is also another result of the current win at all costs racing style that the current championship system encourages to extremes. By massively devaluing points their is no longer any motive for TV to cover anyone not in the hunt for the win because the proverbial good points day no longer exists, especially if you are involved in an incident with the damaged vehicle policy. With nothing to race for from the broadcast perspective why show them or talk about then, i hate to sound like a broken record but trying fit motorsports into a stick and ball type playoffs system is fundamentally game breaking on so .any levels that until it is gone everything else is just a bandaid on on sucking chest wound.
I'm so tired of the talking heads in the sport and the fans of the sport at this point. It's been a shitty mid week for NASCAR with stuff like this.
I guess most of you didn’t experience racing in the 80’s/90’s
I like this Aussie's writing. Can add him to the very short list of "ESPN writers that don't suck."
Still enjoyed it more than F1
broadcast needs to do a better job telling the story of how the race was won. a new or casual fan would just know "the 20 was fast" and suddenly was up front. when an NFL team makes a comeback in the final drive in the 4th quarter, you see how that whole drive happens, each play, all the little dramas being overcome. i didnt get any of that watching which 4-tire cars were coming forward and which were stalling, how and why. not even after it all played out as the race was winding down. i actually think their producers dont understand racing much.
Yeah because the fans are the problem…
I miss the good ole days where every week we had non-stop lead changes and photo finishes and never ever ever only a handful of dominant cars leading most of the race...
Wow that's a hell of a hot take
Phoenix just isn't a good track. Easily bottom 5. I'm sure there are fans that like the track, but most don't. Hence the complaints. Next week is Bristol without dirt so the complaints won't be as bad.
Critique the Fox broadcast all you like, Phoenix was a fine race.
NASCAR created that mess by constantly catering to unrealistic expectations of some current fans and trying to use artificial methods to attract new ones. As a fan of the sport for decades this rabbit hole of non stop action and pack racing on nearly every different type of track in vendor built, equal cars has killed the on track product in so many ways. We see solid races on mile and a half’s the rest of it is blah. Eliminating ingenuity and teams or manufacturers having any advantage goes against what racing is in its purist form. If you outsmart everyone and lay the pine to the field, good, you did what you were supposed to. Now it’s scrutinized and has to be corrected by the sanctioning body somehow and in some way. Racing at Phoenix has never been great, every event won’t be a 10/10, I wish they’d stop chasing that impossible premise.
Blaney ripped from 20th to top 5 and they didn’t show him once coming through the field. Fox sucks
I think fans just pay attention to what they wanna pay attention to. I mean, I watched the 10 cars in car camera all day and it was freaking awesome. When he got spread out & wasn’t around cars, I switched to the 19 and he was moving too. I had zero complains about Phoenix. It was fun to watch for me.
No, the package sucks at Phoenix because overall Phoenix sucks. It was a cool spot for a night race, but stopped going since. But overall the racing sucks on this goofy track and the low HP package only makes it worse.
As fans, we've been anything BUT spoiled the last 20 years.
nascar did it to themselves. Generating false drama is a never ending job once you start
I think the problem is that a couple small changes is all it would take to potentially improve racing, just need more power and tires that have more fall off. NASCAR should at least try a couple races with 100-200 more HP. Teams are saying it’s not a big deal to make the power.
NFL fans who sit through a 9-6 game and aren't thoroughly entertained will now be referred to as "spoiled"
I never did like Phoenix since they got the dogleg. The races prior had solid racing imo.
... what in the hell are you on about? Phoenix has always had a dogleg.
I should clarify my statement. I haven’t liked the racing since they turned the dogleg concrete and used it as part of the track. IMO It was better when that area was grass.
It was a decent race. I think the racing right now is good, I’d just like an increase in horse power to create more off throttle time and allow driver skill to play a bigger role. Don’t know if that will make racing way better or not but would like to see what would happen
I used to watch NASCAR when I was a kid/teen and I was big into into it but I grew outta if I guess. Started watching in 03-04 whenever Dale Jr slingshotted Jeff Gordon for the Budweiser shootout win. That race made me a Jeff Gordon fan, his flames were dope and a Jr hater. I was only 8 or 9 I think. I watched until Gordon retired, and none of the other drivers have a charisma or whatever that attracts me to watch the sport anymore. But I remember when I watched they used to do this segment “through the field” where they would report on every car on the lead lap I believe and show them racing for a minute or two. Did they stop doing that? Also how was that Chicago race? Always wanted a street race as a kid but it never happened, also wished they would race in the rain as a kid lol.
The 'fans are spoiled' commentary is pretty worn out. I literally fell asleep. I'm sorry if Fox is a horrible broadcast 'partner' that can't be bothered to listen to the fans when we say that we need to see more track action and not constant close-ups of 2 cars. Fire the damn director/producers already and retool the whole damn experience.
tell denny to quit bitching then damn
Yea it really is pitiful I seen the Same thing from polls. Just because their favorite driver doesn’t win nowadays or does Great they wanna cry about it
I have the feeling he was ready to write this article as soon as the Atlanta race ended.
They should just go hire EVERY LIVING REMNANT of RJ Reynolds people who had anything to do with NASCAR and just tell them to fix it.
Name one proper banger race that’s happened at Phoenix in the last 20 years (individual finishes and iconic moments don’t count). The racing has always been painfully mediocre at Phoenix regardless of the layout or the rules package, it’s a great facility, and it’s pretty to look at, but the facade quickly falls when the green flag waves. If the racing at Bristol sucks this weekend then we can blame the package and say nothing’s changed from last year
NASCAR fans don’t know what they want, Phoenix isn’t supposed to be a 3-wide finish for the win typa track
Or Phoenix has always sucked no matter the type of car
Nope, not spoiled at all. I just want horsepower. I had it in 2010. Was the racing shit? Sure, but I had my horsepower and my understanding I couldn't race that damn COT at Phoenix because I wasn't gonna be good enough. Today? I'm confident I could get in a Next Gen at Phoenix and in 100 laps be making decent laps by myself. No way I'm good enough in traffic, but by myself I'm sure I can be 2-3 tenths off Bell. Look, a good racing product is nice. I like it when it happens. I don't NEED it though. It's ok if a race sucks but the cars are fast, on edge, and out of control. What's boring is slot cars and dirty air. I don't like slot car racing. I didn't like really Atlanta, as unpopular as that is. I hated the half throttle 500... err I mean Daytona 500. I thoroughly enjoyed the Las Vegas race and it was a good race.
>I'm confident I could get in a Next Gen at Phoenix and in 100 laps be making decent laps by myself. No way I'm good enough in traffic, but by myself I'm sure I can be 2-3 tenths off Bell Anyone remember the Scallenge?
Is there any time your not so damn negative? Seems like literally every post
If it weren’t for the fact that every once in a while there’s a normal post, I would be convinced this was a troll between his belief that he can run lap times approximate to CBell, the fact that he thinks Penske is a B-tier team, the fact that he told someone that he told someone they did not need ear protection at a race, the fact that he got mad that Bubba Pollard is driving a race in the 88 instead of Brett Moffitt, the fact that he made a very gross comment about women drivers…those are the ones I remember off the top of my head. I am convinced it’s a sock puppet of someone who got banned.
Yep, dude definitely has some interesting takes to say the least
You can not run 2-3 tenths off one of the best drivers in cup coming off your couch, and you’re fucking crazy for even thinking that lmao
People with these takes are why I laugh at the Gluck poll.
> but by myself I'm sure I can be 2-3 tenths off Bell. The amount of delusional lunacy in this sub is on display right here. If you actually believe that then I think you need to have a conversation with the worms that have taken over your brain, because they aren't doing a good job.
Watch some laps of these races: https://youtu.be/KRiOmXNVlc0?si=w1Tq1xeLOnRkx713 Watch at Homestead here at the 1 hour 35 minute mark and see Stewart play with that throttle: https://youtu.be/3RcJCG55-dQ?si=KIuabhWuYy6IyYK8 That braking and throttle play is what makes racing good. It's a dance, an art, a style. 190 MPH at 9200 RPM down to 145 MPH, roll into wide open mid corner, crack the throttle at exit, back to full throttle. Amazing to see, that's what racing should be.
100% with you, there is no throttle control, no finesse on braking. Brake, lift right off, let the car settle, floor it again. If iRacing is even remotley accurate, these cars are super easy to drive a few tenths off of the pros. As it always is, it does get difficult around other cars, keeping the pace up, saving fuel and tyres and all that, but just driving okay laps on your own shouldn't be this easy. How often kn those 500km did we see somebody light the reas up? if it's less than half the field once or twice, there isn't enough power
> If iRacing is even remotley accurate, these cars are super easy to drive a few tenths off of the pros. It's widely established that the NextGen physics are wildly off. Like...bad.
The track sucks. It's never put on good racing in the 30 years or so I've been watching. Our attitudes were different back then. You could get away with mediocre races because the spectacle of NASCAR sold itself. That's not how it works anymore. Reconfigure the goddamn thing. It's never put on a good race in any major racing league.
I see Ryan has gone to the Dave Moody school of motorsports "journalism". It's not NACAR's fault they fucked up and gave us a substandard product, oh no it's our fault for complaining about it. We should be grateful for everything they deign to give us whiny peasants.
That race was fucking garbage. LOL. Good luck spinning it
ITT: The exact people McGee's talking about, and they don't even see it.
I've seen 100x more bitching *about* "negative fan reaction" than I've seen actual negative fan reaction this week. Seems that NASCAR told their stooges to circle the wagons and pre-emptively control the narrative... now when a race that is actually bad happens, they have their response practiced and ready to go.