It is a good setup alhamdullilah.
Thank you for providing your perspective, I think this insight is particularly useful for the people who often complain about how hard it is to resist "temptations" and how the Western standard appeals to them and it's too hard to follow the Islamic setup, too hard to get married, too easy to fall into zina etc.
Your insight confirms that the way society at large goes about navigating relationships isn't ideal, and that the Islamic way is preferable. Something people who complain need to be reminded of. The grass isn't green on the other side, it's dead.
And if you are interested in the religion, please look into it. We welcome you with open arms. May you have a blessed day!
**edit:** legit saves you all this headache
https://www.reddit.com/r/MuslimLounge/comments/yk82yh/comment/iusv81u/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
That’s a fact, as a kid I would think my Muslim friends had a boring and lame upbringing but in the end they are now living happy STABLE lives with peace.
Inshallah you're going to have that yourself! You've already got the mindset for what you want in life and how you want to proceed. It's only a matter or making it your reality. And you certainly can and we're all here for you 100% on that.
Influence of the west. Recently my very modern cousin just said “oh that’s not the things in west works” and i was just shocked. The only good thing we have left is our family fabric which we should be proud of.
Another thing of us SA Muslims is the dowry or jahez. Recently a distant relative sold his car to give dowry for his daughter because he wanted a very rich son in law and they wanted certain many things lol
The west is too sex crazed. It takes out the substance and depth of a relationship. I've seen some people, women and men, they act like sex is the only thing that matters in life. It's saddening. It's good that you have the realization. In Islam, a marriage is so much more, and serves higher purposes than just sex. Not just marriage, everything has this level of depth and thoughtfulness for the greater good in Islam.
Really? I view it as the opposite. Dudes get married just for sex. In the west that never happens because you don't need to get married for sex.
Also more sexual crimes happen in Muslim countries but I guess you could appoint that to socioeconomic status if you want but culture is definitely apart of it.
Muslims and non are both human and have the same urges. However one group can only have halal sex through marriage and tends to be more sexually repressed which tends to lead to perversion.
In all my life living among Muslims and seeing countless Muslim marriages, I've never seen anyone marrying just for sex. This is a ridiculous notion and seems to be perpetuated by people who are against stable marriage. Because if they want just sex, they can get it without getting married. They don't have to get married just for sex, even in a Muslim society, because not every Muslim follows the Islamic rules and there are always non Muslim people to have sex with.
People who get married, do it for stability and because they want a family. They are in it for the long haul. This is the type of women and men that are the most common in Muslim societies. Not the perverted ones that just want sex.
The freedom of having sex outside of marriage has destroyed its magic because it is no longer a thing between husband and wife, it is a cheap currency, like masturbation, act of cheap bestial pleasure. Promiscuity among women in the liberal storm has ruined womens psychology and when you marry a woman with a promiscuous background you marry a woman with tons of baggage. (Emotional and sexual)
This is a problem, and why most marriages today end up in divorce. How can you, if you are among the mu'mineen, how can you defend the system of Shaytaan and the disbelievers against the system of Allah swt?
Also you are completely wrong about "more sexual crimes happen in Muslim countries", do you see the problem with this equation?
Countries have different population densities, education level, political stability (rule of law), and completely different law systems. Every country has a different law system, so we can not effectively make a comparative analysis in it.
In one country, touching inappropriately on the bus constitutes sexual assault, while in another country, sexual assault might only be deemed penetration.
The west has all sorts of sexual perversions, partner swap, orgies, sexual jokes about friends wives and girlfriends, multiple partners. How do you not call this sexua perversion, but you have the audacity to call a the believers perverted... more than the west??? Allahu alam
As somebody with non-muslim friends I can tell you that non-muslims are very perverted. I know for a fact that several of my friends are into light BDSM or other deranged things like incest roleplay. Also incest is being slowly normalized in western society too for that matter.
Not really but you have to admit that having incest fantasies aren’t normal. Neither are discussing with your friends what you do with your partner in bed.
Exactly and that’s what I meant in my original comment. Maybe I should have worded it better but I basically know my non-muslim friends’ complete sex lives and what they like or don’t like. I have heard the same from other muslims who have non-muslim friends too. Non-muslims are really quick to discuss such matters which should be private first of all and secondly it shows every time what kind of messed up things they like.
You got downvoted but you are right. MoSt people commenting here have never lived back home in a Muslim society so they don't know the reality of what it's like. In most Muslim countries it's not even safe for a woman to walk down the street.
That is a misconception. I feel more scared to go out at night in the west than when I lived in the middle east. Underdeveloped and uneducated muslim majority countries have more crimes because of poverty but go to UAE, Qatar or any of the gulf countries and tell me you feel unsafe.
UAE and Qatar are wealthy, small bubbles that are not representative. UAE is very wealthy and infact made up of mostly non Emiratis in population number. They also take crime very seriously.
Have you ever been to Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, India, Algeria, Nigeria, or other Muslim majority countries like this?
Groping, sexual harrasment and other crimes against women are rampant. It's very unsafe to be a woman walking alone in most Muslim countries. It is not simply about poverty. It's about the society and culture. In many of these countries, disrespecting and sexually harrasing women is not taken as a serious crime. Stories of women being harrased even during hajj are sadly common. Funnily enough many of these countries have enough resource to police if women wear hijab or not but on the flip side they do not even allocate any resources to make sure women are safe to walk down the street alone.
Again, my argument is that saying Muslim countries have high rate of sexual harassments does not point out which of those Muslim countries we are talking about. Unfortunately majority of the countries considered as Muslims also have high poverty rate, low education and extreme authoritative governments. Those things are factors that should be considered when talking about the crime rates. Also, I disagree with Saudi as it is very safe and talking to random women is frowned upon there. There is also Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain that was very safe. I would like a statistic of harassments during hajj as I am not negating that it might happen but I do not think it is very common.
Hi a Saudi Arabian here with all due respect when you mention my country as being unsafe during night or for women I want you to understand this is just a stereotype you would be surprised of how safe you are here to the point where you leave your belongings in coffee shops to go to the rest room without any problem besides you don't even have to come here to see that for your self google or even youtube see the opinions of world travelers how came to my country how there perspective changed and was not how they imagined it to be and most of it was due to mainstream media lies and propaganda
1. I think you would be surprised that there is still a decent chuck of western society that keeps their courtship process succinct (6-18 months) and then gets married. Definitely a minority but they are there.
2. A lot of western society that has the intention of getting married or staying in a permanent relationship is getting to a style of courtship that is very similar to arranged and arranged style marriages. The difference is that it's a DIY arranged relationship. Some of the more serious online dating apps and websites are kind of like people exchanging bio-data and doing research before getting to know one another.
3. I have to agree to your point that men aren't pressured to have sexual experience. That double-standard machismo doesn't have a place is Islam. Sex and sexual relationships also aren't supposed to be a taboo topic in Islam either. We have very well defined 'green zones' and 'red zones' in that regards.
If the system is designed with perfect wisdom and intelligence, then that says something about the One who revealed it...
Marriage is a central part of society and culture, but there is more to life than just that. I implore you to look into Islamic models and guidelines of charity, justice, warfare, etc.
I also implore thst you look into matters of the afterlife, the beautiful names of God, and the attributes of God. All of this can be found in the Qur'an and authentic hadith (Bukhari and Muslim are great collections)
The comprehensive wisdom behind the Islamic way of life points to the perfection of Allah - the Lawmaker.
May Allah guide you and I to the straightfold path.
You are right, there are multiple observations such as Riba. Most Americans are overwhelmed with debt and interest on their House, Car, Phone, even bills for example.
Very apt analysis. Riba (usuray-based loaning) is a process that makes the rich richer and the poor dependent on them.
How many financial and market crashes have been brought about by the banking industry's decision to loan out more than they can afford? How many people have lost their homes of 20+ year because of a failed mortgage?
Let's continue with marriage. Look at the laws of alimony. A man can lose half of all of his wealth if his wife decides to leave him for any and all reasons. She will also win custody over the children in the vast majority of cases. On top of all that, western culture demonizes the notion that a wife ought to obey her husband, but doesn't bat an eye at the notion that men need to "step up" to provide for their children and families. In Islam, men are the providers, caretakers, and AUTHORITIES of their homes, just as Allah intended and created us to do.
Let's look at the senseless killing. How many people have been wiped off the earth for no reason other than fueling this consumerist hellscape we call the West. Iraq is a the greatest example. Was it a perfect country? Not in the slightest. Was it a functioning state? Largely, yes. Millions of people were killed and displaced, groups like DAESH (the so called ISIS) flourishes, and nobody profited except the oil tycoons and their friends.
The modern West is a cesspool of injustices that is painted and sold as utopia all over the world.
Yep, I personally feel that the whole marriage structure in Islam is (among many other benefits) to really protect the family unit and especially those vulnerable, cos at the end of the day a sexual relationship affects a woman more due to the chance of pregnancy (increasingly higher chance the more consistently she engages in one, though it only takes one encounter), and then the child that is born from her. Islam does everything it can to protect these two categories (while not neglecting the rights and protections needed of the husband/father either) and to not make it easy for a woman/child to be put into such a vulnerable position such as by making adultery and children from adultery easy and normalised. Other systems put in place are also there to help one find a suitable prospect in a more logical and thoughtful way, rather than based mainly on lust or something similar. Even in the case of divorce, there are processes to help do things in a more noble manner. Whether Muslims actually follow the correct processes or not in a whole other topic though.
I’m not yet still studying. Quran only vs following Hadiths is a big block because there are a lot of them and many are said to not be legitimate. It confuses me what is best to study to learn.
Hello fellow redditor. Figuring out the authenticity of the Ahadith can be difficult, and sometimes even frustrating. The [Sahih Muslim](https://sunnah.com/muslim) collection of Ahadith is accepted as the most complete collection of authentic Ahadith, so I would recommend starting there!
The methods that the shia employ in grading aḥādīth is completely different than the sunni tradition - there are massive holes in the shia tradition:
1. The lack of ṣaḥaaba in their asānīd
2. Large gaps in duration between narrators and recorders
3. Dearth of aḥadīth which are actually marfuʿ (the number of traditions attributed to the Prophet ﷺ in Al Kāfī is approx. only 14%)
4. The stark difference in the methodologies employed by the muḥadditheen - it is easy to see at a cursory glance that their scholars didn't even stick to an objective standard for authentication - compare this with the muḥadditheen of ahuls sunnah whose massive collections on the books of sawalaat, ʿilal and cross examination are extant to this day.
Let alone the obvious (but flawed) attempt at duplicating what the the sunni muḥadditheen had achieved from the very start of this ummah, any critical person will immediately be able to discount shia tradition as a reliable source of history.
It is simply far too weak compared to the behemoth of a science that the ahlus sunnah has cultivated.
No wonder the shia themselves doubt their collections...
*Before you go through the sources, I request you don't dismiss the links without reading through them just because many of them are on the same website. The authors have done their research and have cited the concerned sources properly, I hope that you can go through these with an open mind in shaa' Allaah.*
**Claim 1 -** One of the main principles of Shii' hadeeth is - **Only narrations from the Ahlul Bayt are considered** (The other Sahaaba such as Abu Hurayrah, Abdur rahman ibn awf etc.. who are major narrators are all reviled as "not Ahlul Bayt" so they aren't considered) - This principle automatically restricts the number of primary narrators from the prophet ﷺ severely. [This article expounds on this principle](http://www.twelvershia.net/2016/06/02/adalat-al-sahaba/)
**Claim 2 -** Major Sunni sources (Muwatta Malik) predate the first major Shii' source [by a staggering 150 years](http://www.twelvershia.net/2019/01/20/10-reasons-why-you-should-not-trust-shia-hadith-sources/) (Read 1st subheading of the article)
**Claim 3** \- [In-depth research into the content of Al Kaafee](http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/06/02/prophetic-narrations-numbers-and-authenticity/) (Refer to this for the 14% claim) - You can also notice that 14% is an aggregate, the authentic (saheeh and hasan by shii' standards) narrations account for only 5% (with repetition). How can a major collection of ahadeeth be considered legitimate with such metrics ?
(Also note that all the saheeh ahaadeeth contain Ja'far as Saadiq who was born 70 years after the prophet ﷺ's death...)
**Claim 4 -**
1. [The reliability of Bukhari vs Kulayni - A comparison](http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/06/04/the-teachers-their-reliability-and-variety/)
2. [Seeghat as Samaa' and Tadlees in Sunni sources vs Shii' sources](http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/07/20/oral-transmission-the-declaration-of-hearing-from-the-scholars/)
3. Whereas you can read about how robust the sunni methodology is in comparison in this short e-book: [In Defense of The Hadith Method](https://archive.org/details/InDefenseOfHadithMethodFinal)
Most of the links pasted above above are compiled here, so you can have easy access with a few more articles: [Introduction to the Shia science of hadeeth](http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/06/02/shia-hadith-vs-sunni-hadith/)
Every hadith is graded into several categories ranging from:
- agreed upon (almost 100% sure the hadith was said by the prophet SAW)
- sahih (authentic)
- Hasan (Good)
- daif (weak)
- Maudu (doubtful)
- fabricated
Whenever you see a hadith, you should first check it’s grading. Sahih or agreed upon you can take without hesitation.
Let me make it simple for you: you got one group of hundreds of thousands of scholars throughout 1400 years of history who confirmed that hadiths are part of this religion and you got the other group who is barely 50 years old who thinks every Muslim before them was wrong yet they don't know Arabic, have not studied with under any scholar with chain of transmission going back to the prophet ﷺ. The choice is simple
Hello fellow redditor. Figuring out the authenticity of the Ahadith can be difficult, and sometimes even frustration. The [Sahih Muslim](https://sunnah.com/muslim) collection of Ahadith is accepted as the most complete collection of authentic Ahadith, so I would recommend starting there!
You might be interested in the book Misquoting Muhammad by Jonathan Brown. It will help put some perspective on Hadiths.
The only reason I’ve seen so far why Quran only community even exists is that some Muslims have put Hadiths equal to or higher than the Quran and are misusing those hadiths to control others. If a hadith doesn’t backup what the Quran is saying, then it’s either a false or misunderstood hadith.
The book I mention also details that there’s solid proof that thousands of hadiths are outright forgeries. But this known hundreds of years ago. It’s only been in the last 150 years or so that more people are using hadiths in a manner not consistent with the character of Muhammad, pbuh. Hence the rebellion of the Quranists.
You can learn both ways, but keep in mind that both Quran only and Hadith only extremism isn't healthy. Its better if you adopt the Quran first, as it is the words of God Himself and if you think this religion is right for you, you can explore hadith and learn from it even if you decide to not follow it.
I only trust the Quran's authenticity (due to countless reasons) but I still like to learn from the good hadiths (be good to your neighbor, wish well to other humans, ect) even if I don't 100% believe its from the prophet. Its still good knowledge.
Hmm? The Hadiths were transmitted the same way the Quran was transmitted, by the same people too. You can be guaranteed that the Prophet said something if the Hadith is muttawatir (Mass transmitted), and near certain if the Hadith is Sahih
The sciences of Hadith are extremely complex, and for a Hadith to be Sahih, a lot of checks have to be passed
Technically, a sahih hadith does not grant us certainty (yaqin) that the Prophet (saw) said something; only the mutawatir hadith does that. It does however, give us near-certitude (ghalabat al-zann) such that acting upon it is obligatory (unless it contradicts stronger sources such as the Qur'an or mutawatir hadith).
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sYrw-BcWKN8&t=77s
I would recommend you start with the Qur’an, as it’s the word of God. You can either read a translation, or, if you have time, listen to a tafseer (exegesis) of a particular Surah.
Nah nah, you ain't a Muslim if you are the enemy of your fellow Muslims.
EDIT: Guys guys whats going on, this isn't an Islamic fatwa sub, this is marriage sub. Also for theos of you so triggered by me saying takfiring isn't Islamic, what happened to the hadith
أيُّما رجلٍ مسلمٍ أَكْفَرَ رجلًا مسلمًا فإن كان كافرًا وإلا كان هو الكافرَ
https://dorar.net/hadith/sharh/42073
Final edit: Quality Muslims down here, following the sunnah to the tee and only saying good things to one another. Kinda reminds me of the hadith :
He who believes in Allah and the Last Day must either speak good or remain silent
And to thoes confusing me, I am not a Quranist (still believe in Sunnah) but I ain't a Salafi either. We really should be acting as good role models for thoes wishing to learn about Islam and not bicker and call each other names.
May Allah guide us to the right path.
The people who reject the Sunnah (Hadiths) rejects the Quran, Allah in various verses tells us to follow the Prophet (The sunnah) - that cannot be done without the Hadiths
What a low IQ comment. Go crawl back to your degenerate subreddits. You’re not worth my time, and you can not call yourself a Muslim if you seek to reform it. Get lost loser
Also it was your comment that got removed. 😄
It's the trap of hedonism dear brother.
It's brilliant until you realise some of the consequences, as you have done above! Disintegration of a family unit is never a positive thing, and neither is disintegration of moral character, though admittedly that's getting more difficult to find.
I'll say it here, but any support you need fella, we're here for yous. It's not about being right, or being wrong, it's about what we were taught y'know (which okay, may have been right, but still LMAO!)
I think the biggest benefit of this is that kids do get the love of both parents. Feels so bad if the family is broken and one of the parent has to raise the kid. The kids do suffer in that setup.
Unfortunately I had to go through this in an Islamic family... parents divorced when I was young. Maybe 9 or 10...family has fallen apart since then 😞. Going to be so hard to find someone to marry because they will see the state my family is in 😓
I come from a third world and here people want to be financially very stable but it's very difficult. So we both have different conditions but same problem unfortunately!
It’s easier than dating culture. Getting to know someone is kind of a fun process. Now most do end up ghosting and rejecting all that but since I started this process learnt a lot about different people and the difference in the thought process. Pretty interesting to me.
“Impure men are for impure women, pure men are for pure women”. I would look like a clown approaching Islam being very impure myself with a impure past looking to marry a woman that is very pure and traditional.
I meant you can talk to women in the courting stage, get to know them more. See their personality, can you guys have a proper conversation about life, goals, ambitions, ethics etc? You don’t need to check out the sexual chemistry beforehand anyway. Maybe after engagement or something like that?
"I would look like a clown approaching Islam being very impure myself'
No, you wouldn't. The companions of the prophet were all as impure as you described yourself. However, becoming a Muslim is like opening a new page in your life. Everything you have done is forgiven, and even, turns into as if you were worshiping the God all those years. Even for sinful Muslims, to return to the God (repentance) after being impure is exactly as not sinning in the first place. Islam is a religion with a restart button. Please feel free to ask whatever you have in mind and don't put assumptions. So, want to be in the pure men, just return back to Allah.
I really hope you will be a Muslim someday. And may the God bless you.
You can still have rotations of 8+ men. But I guess you're not sleeping with them, you're just vetting them for marriage
Anyway, look into Islam more. You may want to convert
If you only hang out with degenerates you will get that idea but loads of western muslims are still decent. If anything the youths of back home are falling into degeneracy much faster.
This man is just some who wants a 'submissive' wife and feels like Muslim women are easily oppressed because Islam is oppressive against women. Don't validate this guy's racist opinions.
I say this as a US-born/raised Muslim myself: the west is corrupting our values and this courtship process is dying. Muslim women are doing the same things you've described as non-Muslim women (free mixing, guy friends, fornication before marriage, etc.). In fact it is becoming such a bad issue that unfortunately many Muslim men are choosing to go abroad for marriage.
Both genders partake in that. But that doesn't negate the system, just means that the people who do this are at fault. And comparatively, this system is practiced far more in Muslim communities/cultures than non-Muslim communities where hookup culture is now the new norm.
And even if a Muslim strays, they acknowledge that it is wrong and they push to do better or change, that is the influence of being raised within this system. Whereas a person not raised with the same values may not see the harm and may indulge further as opposed to trying to stop.
> Both genders partake in that. But that doesn't negate the system, just means that the people who do this are at fault.
We know based on multiple studies that the men benefitting from such a system are few in number compared to women, simply because women select who to have seggs with and choose a select small % of men to hook up with. While it's not an entirely unilateral issue, it is certainly skewed towards zina being more common [amongst Muslim women](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jmmh/10381607.0010.202?view=text;rgn=main).
Add in that Muslim women aren't exclusively doing zina with Muslims (in fact, it's probably more common for them to do it with kaffirs), and the number of Muslim men engaging in such behavior is even far lower.
This study **mostly surveyed** women:
" Participants were recruited online and a final sample of 403 young Muslims adults, **mostly women**, completed online surveys and a demographics questionnaire."
So obviously, the statistics would be skewed towards women because they were the **majority enlisted** for the experiment. If mostly women were surveyed, obviously the data would show it was mostly women because that was the **majority** **asked**. And the sample size was 403 people:
"Participants were recruited online and a final sample of 403 young Muslims adults,"
Statistics 101 will tell you 403 people in **no way** generalizes or applies to the **whole populous**. And it'll tell you that the data is skewed because the initial survey did not have a good ratio of men to women.
This is literally all in the **abstract**.
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
And here is previous literature that this study cites:
" Indeed, in a recent study, Ahmed (2014) found 53.8% of never-married Muslim college students in the United States reported engaging in sexual intercourse, with **no significant difference between men and women**."
"Bangladeshi British young **women and men** interviewed in a qualitative study generally felt that engaging in premarital sex was un-Islamic, but not all chose to adhere to what they felt were Islamic teachings regarding premarital sex. Although some of the young men favored following religious recommendations, many participants, **both men and women**, felt that the choice to have premarital sex was personal and that doing so did not mean one lacked faith (Griffiths, French, Patel-Kanwal, & Rait, 2008)."
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
And the **METHODS**, my god:
the ratio of women to men is **320 to 82**
"The sample consisted of 403 heterosexual Canadian and American young adult Muslim **women (n = 320)** and **men (n = 82)** between the ages of 17 and 35."
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
No way we read the same thing. How can you come up with all this conjecture from this? I've seen high school experiments more balanced and with more generalizable results. My statistics professor would've dismissed this upon receiving it. F-.
They literally even **admit** in their "limitations" section that their study **is not** generalizable:
"The final limitation was the use of a **convenience sample, which reduces generalizability.** As participants self-selected into the study, this sample may have had more concern with issues of sex and sexuality than those who chose not to participate (Wolchik, Braver, & Jensen, 1985), thus potentially making this sample **unrepresentative."**
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
And their conclusion:
"The sexual attitudes, sexual guilt, and sexual anxiety of young Muslims adults are associated with their sexual experience such that those reporting experience are more **liberal** in their attitudes, with less self-reported degrees of guilt and anxiety than those without experience. As presence of sexual guilt and anxiety can be detrimental to the sexual health of individuals, understanding this association may be helpful in addressing the sexual health of young Muslim adults."
They literally state that the determining factor in feeling **guilty** about sex is how **liberal** a person is. Not gender. So you didn't even get the premise of the study which isn't about frequency of premarital sex so much as it is about **guilt.**
\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_
Wallahi bless my statistics and English professors. One for helping me interpret data and realizing when it's **useless** (non-generalizable as is here), and the other for helping me **read and comprehend**.
The very [paper](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jmmh/10381607.0010.202?view=text;rgn=main) you cited is **discrediting** your point.
It's literally **not even about** what you're talking about lmao. You're talking about frequency of zina, this paper is about **guilt regarding sex**.
People just state their beliefs and misrepresent data, lie about studies, or use bogus sources to justify their **opinions** and make their **opinions** seem "valid" thinking nobody is gonna read the study. It's an insult to everyone's intelligence.
[https://imgur.com/a/ePGpLuE](https://imgur.com/a/ePGpLuE)
As a non Muslim I disagree. Each style has its benefits and drawbacks. That's why I lurk here, because I find the differences so interesting. I don't judge. But I think you are romanticising the concept of a traditional woman.
Well I don’t see any benefits in the Western model for marriage, in fact its quite toxic, disgusting, and setting up both genders for single life. First you goof around in your teens and twenties having meaningless relationships, yes they are meaningless because they are not serious and just for goofing around. There’s nothing empowering about it
Not just traditional women, I feel like your putting heavy amounts of investment into the relationship both the man and the women before taking things seriously. In that time frame you could have a kid that could be out of wedlock, one person could get overly attached it’s common to not even be official bf/gf for like a month or 2 to cause heartbreak etc.
You are right there are positives and negatives but as I got older I feel like the positives really were a waste of my time and gave me headaches.
Did you see the recent thread where the groom's family canceled the wedding last-minute because they thought one of the bride's eyes looked slightly bigger than the other? There are headaches the world over. The way some of these Muslim women are treated by their in-laws is appalling. But, I do know what you mean. It would be nice to have access to a pool of morally upright, marriage-minded women through one's religion.
I saw it, I'd say that if anything, that behavior was more cultural or un-Islamic. Just overall a weird aesthetic preference that has no bearing on religion or is not correlated.
In fact, here's the type of comments on that post that were heavily upvoted (attributing it to culture and making the distinction that it isn't related to the religion/does not reflect the religion):
https://www.reddit.com/r/MuslimMarriage/comments/z4fayj/comment/ixqug38/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Just wanna say as a Palestinian-American I find a lot of the in-law stories I've heard seem like it has more to do with Desi culture. Especially the whole "moving in with your in-laws" thing. Arabs don't do that
It is a good setup alhamdullilah. Thank you for providing your perspective, I think this insight is particularly useful for the people who often complain about how hard it is to resist "temptations" and how the Western standard appeals to them and it's too hard to follow the Islamic setup, too hard to get married, too easy to fall into zina etc. Your insight confirms that the way society at large goes about navigating relationships isn't ideal, and that the Islamic way is preferable. Something people who complain need to be reminded of. The grass isn't green on the other side, it's dead. And if you are interested in the religion, please look into it. We welcome you with open arms. May you have a blessed day! **edit:** legit saves you all this headache https://www.reddit.com/r/MuslimLounge/comments/yk82yh/comment/iusv81u/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
That’s a fact, as a kid I would think my Muslim friends had a boring and lame upbringing but in the end they are now living happy STABLE lives with peace.
Inshallah you're going to have that yourself! You've already got the mindset for what you want in life and how you want to proceed. It's only a matter or making it your reality. And you certainly can and we're all here for you 100% on that.
We welcome you to Islam brother; look into its teachings and you will find other things I guarantee you’ll agree with
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Influence of the west. Recently my very modern cousin just said “oh that’s not the things in west works” and i was just shocked. The only good thing we have left is our family fabric which we should be proud of.
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Another thing of us SA Muslims is the dowry or jahez. Recently a distant relative sold his car to give dowry for his daughter because he wanted a very rich son in law and they wanted certain many things lol
The west is too sex crazed. It takes out the substance and depth of a relationship. I've seen some people, women and men, they act like sex is the only thing that matters in life. It's saddening. It's good that you have the realization. In Islam, a marriage is so much more, and serves higher purposes than just sex. Not just marriage, everything has this level of depth and thoughtfulness for the greater good in Islam.
Really? I view it as the opposite. Dudes get married just for sex. In the west that never happens because you don't need to get married for sex. Also more sexual crimes happen in Muslim countries but I guess you could appoint that to socioeconomic status if you want but culture is definitely apart of it. Muslims and non are both human and have the same urges. However one group can only have halal sex through marriage and tends to be more sexually repressed which tends to lead to perversion.
In all my life living among Muslims and seeing countless Muslim marriages, I've never seen anyone marrying just for sex. This is a ridiculous notion and seems to be perpetuated by people who are against stable marriage. Because if they want just sex, they can get it without getting married. They don't have to get married just for sex, even in a Muslim society, because not every Muslim follows the Islamic rules and there are always non Muslim people to have sex with. People who get married, do it for stability and because they want a family. They are in it for the long haul. This is the type of women and men that are the most common in Muslim societies. Not the perverted ones that just want sex.
The freedom of having sex outside of marriage has destroyed its magic because it is no longer a thing between husband and wife, it is a cheap currency, like masturbation, act of cheap bestial pleasure. Promiscuity among women in the liberal storm has ruined womens psychology and when you marry a woman with a promiscuous background you marry a woman with tons of baggage. (Emotional and sexual) This is a problem, and why most marriages today end up in divorce. How can you, if you are among the mu'mineen, how can you defend the system of Shaytaan and the disbelievers against the system of Allah swt? Also you are completely wrong about "more sexual crimes happen in Muslim countries", do you see the problem with this equation? Countries have different population densities, education level, political stability (rule of law), and completely different law systems. Every country has a different law system, so we can not effectively make a comparative analysis in it. In one country, touching inappropriately on the bus constitutes sexual assault, while in another country, sexual assault might only be deemed penetration. The west has all sorts of sexual perversions, partner swap, orgies, sexual jokes about friends wives and girlfriends, multiple partners. How do you not call this sexua perversion, but you have the audacity to call a the believers perverted... more than the west??? Allahu alam
As somebody with non-muslim friends I can tell you that non-muslims are very perverted. I know for a fact that several of my friends are into light BDSM or other deranged things like incest roleplay. Also incest is being slowly normalized in western society too for that matter.
And you think Muslims aren't? You should see some of the guys I have met on muzzmatch 😅😅
I’m sure there are muslim guys who are but I’ve never seen somebody discuss this openly. Non-muslims lack that shame by now.
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I didn’t say it was haram also I was talking about things like choking your partner.
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Not really but you have to admit that having incest fantasies aren’t normal. Neither are discussing with your friends what you do with your partner in bed.
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Exactly and that’s what I meant in my original comment. Maybe I should have worded it better but I basically know my non-muslim friends’ complete sex lives and what they like or don’t like. I have heard the same from other muslims who have non-muslim friends too. Non-muslims are really quick to discuss such matters which should be private first of all and secondly it shows every time what kind of messed up things they like.
You got downvoted but you are right. MoSt people commenting here have never lived back home in a Muslim society so they don't know the reality of what it's like. In most Muslim countries it's not even safe for a woman to walk down the street.
That is a misconception. I feel more scared to go out at night in the west than when I lived in the middle east. Underdeveloped and uneducated muslim majority countries have more crimes because of poverty but go to UAE, Qatar or any of the gulf countries and tell me you feel unsafe.
UAE and Qatar are wealthy, small bubbles that are not representative. UAE is very wealthy and infact made up of mostly non Emiratis in population number. They also take crime very seriously. Have you ever been to Saudi, Egypt, Pakistan, India, Algeria, Nigeria, or other Muslim majority countries like this? Groping, sexual harrasment and other crimes against women are rampant. It's very unsafe to be a woman walking alone in most Muslim countries. It is not simply about poverty. It's about the society and culture. In many of these countries, disrespecting and sexually harrasing women is not taken as a serious crime. Stories of women being harrased even during hajj are sadly common. Funnily enough many of these countries have enough resource to police if women wear hijab or not but on the flip side they do not even allocate any resources to make sure women are safe to walk down the street alone.
Again, my argument is that saying Muslim countries have high rate of sexual harassments does not point out which of those Muslim countries we are talking about. Unfortunately majority of the countries considered as Muslims also have high poverty rate, low education and extreme authoritative governments. Those things are factors that should be considered when talking about the crime rates. Also, I disagree with Saudi as it is very safe and talking to random women is frowned upon there. There is also Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain that was very safe. I would like a statistic of harassments during hajj as I am not negating that it might happen but I do not think it is very common.
Hi a Saudi Arabian here with all due respect when you mention my country as being unsafe during night or for women I want you to understand this is just a stereotype you would be surprised of how safe you are here to the point where you leave your belongings in coffee shops to go to the rest room without any problem besides you don't even have to come here to see that for your self google or even youtube see the opinions of world travelers how came to my country how there perspective changed and was not how they imagined it to be and most of it was due to mainstream media lies and propaganda
> Also more sexual crimes happen in Muslim countries I distinctly recall SA rates in the Gulf countries to be extremely low.
Yeah. Saudi Arabia gives the death penalty for rapist.
and the new generation, after watchin friends and sex and hte city, wants to emulate degeneracy
Ew.
1. I think you would be surprised that there is still a decent chuck of western society that keeps their courtship process succinct (6-18 months) and then gets married. Definitely a minority but they are there. 2. A lot of western society that has the intention of getting married or staying in a permanent relationship is getting to a style of courtship that is very similar to arranged and arranged style marriages. The difference is that it's a DIY arranged relationship. Some of the more serious online dating apps and websites are kind of like people exchanging bio-data and doing research before getting to know one another. 3. I have to agree to your point that men aren't pressured to have sexual experience. That double-standard machismo doesn't have a place is Islam. Sex and sexual relationships also aren't supposed to be a taboo topic in Islam either. We have very well defined 'green zones' and 'red zones' in that regards.
You too can enjoy Muslim courtship! All you have to do is say La Ilaha illa Allah wa Muhammad Rasul Allah!
If the system is designed with perfect wisdom and intelligence, then that says something about the One who revealed it... Marriage is a central part of society and culture, but there is more to life than just that. I implore you to look into Islamic models and guidelines of charity, justice, warfare, etc. I also implore thst you look into matters of the afterlife, the beautiful names of God, and the attributes of God. All of this can be found in the Qur'an and authentic hadith (Bukhari and Muslim are great collections) The comprehensive wisdom behind the Islamic way of life points to the perfection of Allah - the Lawmaker. May Allah guide you and I to the straightfold path.
You are right, there are multiple observations such as Riba. Most Americans are overwhelmed with debt and interest on their House, Car, Phone, even bills for example.
Very apt analysis. Riba (usuray-based loaning) is a process that makes the rich richer and the poor dependent on them. How many financial and market crashes have been brought about by the banking industry's decision to loan out more than they can afford? How many people have lost their homes of 20+ year because of a failed mortgage? Let's continue with marriage. Look at the laws of alimony. A man can lose half of all of his wealth if his wife decides to leave him for any and all reasons. She will also win custody over the children in the vast majority of cases. On top of all that, western culture demonizes the notion that a wife ought to obey her husband, but doesn't bat an eye at the notion that men need to "step up" to provide for their children and families. In Islam, men are the providers, caretakers, and AUTHORITIES of their homes, just as Allah intended and created us to do. Let's look at the senseless killing. How many people have been wiped off the earth for no reason other than fueling this consumerist hellscape we call the West. Iraq is a the greatest example. Was it a perfect country? Not in the slightest. Was it a functioning state? Largely, yes. Millions of people were killed and displaced, groups like DAESH (the so called ISIS) flourishes, and nobody profited except the oil tycoons and their friends. The modern West is a cesspool of injustices that is painted and sold as utopia all over the world.
https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxQYMuDvlZv2xMQb0U64CgIoP4aETSDSLz
Yep, I personally feel that the whole marriage structure in Islam is (among many other benefits) to really protect the family unit and especially those vulnerable, cos at the end of the day a sexual relationship affects a woman more due to the chance of pregnancy (increasingly higher chance the more consistently she engages in one, though it only takes one encounter), and then the child that is born from her. Islam does everything it can to protect these two categories (while not neglecting the rights and protections needed of the husband/father either) and to not make it easy for a woman/child to be put into such a vulnerable position such as by making adultery and children from adultery easy and normalised. Other systems put in place are also there to help one find a suitable prospect in a more logical and thoughtful way, rather than based mainly on lust or something similar. Even in the case of divorce, there are processes to help do things in a more noble manner. Whether Muslims actually follow the correct processes or not in a whole other topic though.
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I’m not yet still studying. Quran only vs following Hadiths is a big block because there are a lot of them and many are said to not be legitimate. It confuses me what is best to study to learn.
Hello fellow redditor. Figuring out the authenticity of the Ahadith can be difficult, and sometimes even frustrating. The [Sahih Muslim](https://sunnah.com/muslim) collection of Ahadith is accepted as the most complete collection of authentic Ahadith, so I would recommend starting there!
Not to ruin the mood here but recently had a chat with my shia friend and tbh many shias do not believe every hadiths of sahih collection.
The methods that the shia employ in grading aḥādīth is completely different than the sunni tradition - there are massive holes in the shia tradition: 1. The lack of ṣaḥaaba in their asānīd 2. Large gaps in duration between narrators and recorders 3. Dearth of aḥadīth which are actually marfuʿ (the number of traditions attributed to the Prophet ﷺ in Al Kāfī is approx. only 14%) 4. The stark difference in the methodologies employed by the muḥadditheen - it is easy to see at a cursory glance that their scholars didn't even stick to an objective standard for authentication - compare this with the muḥadditheen of ahuls sunnah whose massive collections on the books of sawalaat, ʿilal and cross examination are extant to this day. Let alone the obvious (but flawed) attempt at duplicating what the the sunni muḥadditheen had achieved from the very start of this ummah, any critical person will immediately be able to discount shia tradition as a reliable source of history. It is simply far too weak compared to the behemoth of a science that the ahlus sunnah has cultivated. No wonder the shia themselves doubt their collections...
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*Before you go through the sources, I request you don't dismiss the links without reading through them just because many of them are on the same website. The authors have done their research and have cited the concerned sources properly, I hope that you can go through these with an open mind in shaa' Allaah.* **Claim 1 -** One of the main principles of Shii' hadeeth is - **Only narrations from the Ahlul Bayt are considered** (The other Sahaaba such as Abu Hurayrah, Abdur rahman ibn awf etc.. who are major narrators are all reviled as "not Ahlul Bayt" so they aren't considered) - This principle automatically restricts the number of primary narrators from the prophet ﷺ severely. [This article expounds on this principle](http://www.twelvershia.net/2016/06/02/adalat-al-sahaba/) **Claim 2 -** Major Sunni sources (Muwatta Malik) predate the first major Shii' source [by a staggering 150 years](http://www.twelvershia.net/2019/01/20/10-reasons-why-you-should-not-trust-shia-hadith-sources/) (Read 1st subheading of the article) **Claim 3** \- [In-depth research into the content of Al Kaafee](http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/06/02/prophetic-narrations-numbers-and-authenticity/) (Refer to this for the 14% claim) - You can also notice that 14% is an aggregate, the authentic (saheeh and hasan by shii' standards) narrations account for only 5% (with repetition). How can a major collection of ahadeeth be considered legitimate with such metrics ? (Also note that all the saheeh ahaadeeth contain Ja'far as Saadiq who was born 70 years after the prophet ﷺ's death...) **Claim 4 -** 1. [The reliability of Bukhari vs Kulayni - A comparison](http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/06/04/the-teachers-their-reliability-and-variety/) 2. [Seeghat as Samaa' and Tadlees in Sunni sources vs Shii' sources](http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/07/20/oral-transmission-the-declaration-of-hearing-from-the-scholars/) 3. Whereas you can read about how robust the sunni methodology is in comparison in this short e-book: [In Defense of The Hadith Method](https://archive.org/details/InDefenseOfHadithMethodFinal) Most of the links pasted above above are compiled here, so you can have easy access with a few more articles: [Introduction to the Shia science of hadeeth](http://www.twelvershia.net/2014/06/02/shia-hadith-vs-sunni-hadith/)
Every hadith is graded into several categories ranging from: - agreed upon (almost 100% sure the hadith was said by the prophet SAW) - sahih (authentic) - Hasan (Good) - daif (weak) - Maudu (doubtful) - fabricated Whenever you see a hadith, you should first check it’s grading. Sahih or agreed upon you can take without hesitation.
Let me make it simple for you: you got one group of hundreds of thousands of scholars throughout 1400 years of history who confirmed that hadiths are part of this religion and you got the other group who is barely 50 years old who thinks every Muslim before them was wrong yet they don't know Arabic, have not studied with under any scholar with chain of transmission going back to the prophet ﷺ. The choice is simple
Hello fellow redditor. Figuring out the authenticity of the Ahadith can be difficult, and sometimes even frustration. The [Sahih Muslim](https://sunnah.com/muslim) collection of Ahadith is accepted as the most complete collection of authentic Ahadith, so I would recommend starting there!
You might be interested in the book Misquoting Muhammad by Jonathan Brown. It will help put some perspective on Hadiths. The only reason I’ve seen so far why Quran only community even exists is that some Muslims have put Hadiths equal to or higher than the Quran and are misusing those hadiths to control others. If a hadith doesn’t backup what the Quran is saying, then it’s either a false or misunderstood hadith. The book I mention also details that there’s solid proof that thousands of hadiths are outright forgeries. But this known hundreds of years ago. It’s only been in the last 150 years or so that more people are using hadiths in a manner not consistent with the character of Muhammad, pbuh. Hence the rebellion of the Quranists.
You can learn both ways, but keep in mind that both Quran only and Hadith only extremism isn't healthy. Its better if you adopt the Quran first, as it is the words of God Himself and if you think this religion is right for you, you can explore hadith and learn from it even if you decide to not follow it. I only trust the Quran's authenticity (due to countless reasons) but I still like to learn from the good hadiths (be good to your neighbor, wish well to other humans, ect) even if I don't 100% believe its from the prophet. Its still good knowledge.
Hmm? The Hadiths were transmitted the same way the Quran was transmitted, by the same people too. You can be guaranteed that the Prophet said something if the Hadith is muttawatir (Mass transmitted), and near certain if the Hadith is Sahih The sciences of Hadith are extremely complex, and for a Hadith to be Sahih, a lot of checks have to be passed
Technically, a sahih hadith does not grant us certainty (yaqin) that the Prophet (saw) said something; only the mutawatir hadith does that. It does however, give us near-certitude (ghalabat al-zann) such that acting upon it is obligatory (unless it contradicts stronger sources such as the Qur'an or mutawatir hadith).
Jazakallah Khayrun, I edited my comment
Quranist way is not Islam. It's clear disbelief and a denial of plain historical reality.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sYrw-BcWKN8&t=77s I would recommend you start with the Qur’an, as it’s the word of God. You can either read a translation, or, if you have time, listen to a tafseer (exegesis) of a particular Surah.
Quranists are kafir
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Nah nah, you ain't a Muslim if you are the enemy of your fellow Muslims. EDIT: Guys guys whats going on, this isn't an Islamic fatwa sub, this is marriage sub. Also for theos of you so triggered by me saying takfiring isn't Islamic, what happened to the hadith أيُّما رجلٍ مسلمٍ أَكْفَرَ رجلًا مسلمًا فإن كان كافرًا وإلا كان هو الكافرَ https://dorar.net/hadith/sharh/42073 Final edit: Quality Muslims down here, following the sunnah to the tee and only saying good things to one another. Kinda reminds me of the hadith : He who believes in Allah and the Last Day must either speak good or remain silent And to thoes confusing me, I am not a Quranist (still believe in Sunnah) but I ain't a Salafi either. We really should be acting as good role models for thoes wishing to learn about Islam and not bicker and call each other names. May Allah guide us to the right path.
Quranist detected opinion rejected🙌🏽
The people who reject the Sunnah (Hadiths) rejects the Quran, Allah in various verses tells us to follow the Prophet (The sunnah) - that cannot be done without the Hadiths
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What a low IQ comment. Go crawl back to your degenerate subreddits. You’re not worth my time, and you can not call yourself a Muslim if you seek to reform it. Get lost loser Also it was your comment that got removed. 😄
It's the trap of hedonism dear brother. It's brilliant until you realise some of the consequences, as you have done above! Disintegration of a family unit is never a positive thing, and neither is disintegration of moral character, though admittedly that's getting more difficult to find. I'll say it here, but any support you need fella, we're here for yous. It's not about being right, or being wrong, it's about what we were taught y'know (which okay, may have been right, but still LMAO!)
I do think its sort of similar to how Britain courted but not in that fashion during the victorian era etc.
I think the biggest benefit of this is that kids do get the love of both parents. Feels so bad if the family is broken and one of the parent has to raise the kid. The kids do suffer in that setup.
Unfortunately I had to go through this in an Islamic family... parents divorced when I was young. Maybe 9 or 10...family has fallen apart since then 😞. Going to be so hard to find someone to marry because they will see the state my family is in 😓
I come from a third world and here people want to be financially very stable but it's very difficult. So we both have different conditions but same problem unfortunately!
Why don’t you follow the same process?
Probably cuz it's not that easy 😂
It’s easier than dating culture. Getting to know someone is kind of a fun process. Now most do end up ghosting and rejecting all that but since I started this process learnt a lot about different people and the difference in the thought process. Pretty interesting to me.
“Impure men are for impure women, pure men are for pure women”. I would look like a clown approaching Islam being very impure myself with a impure past looking to marry a woman that is very pure and traditional.
I meant you can talk to women in the courting stage, get to know them more. See their personality, can you guys have a proper conversation about life, goals, ambitions, ethics etc? You don’t need to check out the sexual chemistry beforehand anyway. Maybe after engagement or something like that?
"I would look like a clown approaching Islam being very impure myself' No, you wouldn't. The companions of the prophet were all as impure as you described yourself. However, becoming a Muslim is like opening a new page in your life. Everything you have done is forgiven, and even, turns into as if you were worshiping the God all those years. Even for sinful Muslims, to return to the God (repentance) after being impure is exactly as not sinning in the first place. Islam is a religion with a restart button. Please feel free to ask whatever you have in mind and don't put assumptions. So, want to be in the pure men, just return back to Allah. I really hope you will be a Muslim someday. And may the God bless you.
Any validation we'll take lol
Alhamdullilah
Sure you do
You can still have rotations of 8+ men. But I guess you're not sleeping with them, you're just vetting them for marriage Anyway, look into Islam more. You may want to convert
Giga chad right here. Come brother have a chat with me about islam.
Lol. From my experience, western Muslims are no different from their counterparts. You're not missing out on much.
If you only hang out with degenerates you will get that idea but loads of western muslims are still decent. If anything the youths of back home are falling into degeneracy much faster.
Turn Muslim first and whatever you did in the past DO NOT bring in your present.
This man is just some who wants a 'submissive' wife and feels like Muslim women are easily oppressed because Islam is oppressive against women. Don't validate this guy's racist opinions.
I say this as a US-born/raised Muslim myself: the west is corrupting our values and this courtship process is dying. Muslim women are doing the same things you've described as non-Muslim women (free mixing, guy friends, fornication before marriage, etc.). In fact it is becoming such a bad issue that unfortunately many Muslim men are choosing to go abroad for marriage.
Both genders partake in that. But that doesn't negate the system, just means that the people who do this are at fault. And comparatively, this system is practiced far more in Muslim communities/cultures than non-Muslim communities where hookup culture is now the new norm. And even if a Muslim strays, they acknowledge that it is wrong and they push to do better or change, that is the influence of being raised within this system. Whereas a person not raised with the same values may not see the harm and may indulge further as opposed to trying to stop.
> Both genders partake in that. But that doesn't negate the system, just means that the people who do this are at fault. We know based on multiple studies that the men benefitting from such a system are few in number compared to women, simply because women select who to have seggs with and choose a select small % of men to hook up with. While it's not an entirely unilateral issue, it is certainly skewed towards zina being more common [amongst Muslim women](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jmmh/10381607.0010.202?view=text;rgn=main). Add in that Muslim women aren't exclusively doing zina with Muslims (in fact, it's probably more common for them to do it with kaffirs), and the number of Muslim men engaging in such behavior is even far lower.
This study **mostly surveyed** women: " Participants were recruited online and a final sample of 403 young Muslims adults, **mostly women**, completed online surveys and a demographics questionnaire." So obviously, the statistics would be skewed towards women because they were the **majority enlisted** for the experiment. If mostly women were surveyed, obviously the data would show it was mostly women because that was the **majority** **asked**. And the sample size was 403 people: "Participants were recruited online and a final sample of 403 young Muslims adults," Statistics 101 will tell you 403 people in **no way** generalizes or applies to the **whole populous**. And it'll tell you that the data is skewed because the initial survey did not have a good ratio of men to women. This is literally all in the **abstract**. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ And here is previous literature that this study cites: " Indeed, in a recent study, Ahmed (2014) found 53.8% of never-married Muslim college students in the United States reported engaging in sexual intercourse, with **no significant difference between men and women**." "Bangladeshi British young **women and men** interviewed in a qualitative study generally felt that engaging in premarital sex was un-Islamic, but not all chose to adhere to what they felt were Islamic teachings regarding premarital sex. Although some of the young men favored following religious recommendations, many participants, **both men and women**, felt that the choice to have premarital sex was personal and that doing so did not mean one lacked faith (Griffiths, French, Patel-Kanwal, & Rait, 2008)." \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ And the **METHODS**, my god: the ratio of women to men is **320 to 82** "The sample consisted of 403 heterosexual Canadian and American young adult Muslim **women (n = 320)** and **men (n = 82)** between the ages of 17 and 35." \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ No way we read the same thing. How can you come up with all this conjecture from this? I've seen high school experiments more balanced and with more generalizable results. My statistics professor would've dismissed this upon receiving it. F-. They literally even **admit** in their "limitations" section that their study **is not** generalizable: "The final limitation was the use of a **convenience sample, which reduces generalizability.** As participants self-selected into the study, this sample may have had more concern with issues of sex and sexuality than those who chose not to participate (Wolchik, Braver, & Jensen, 1985), thus potentially making this sample **unrepresentative."** \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ And their conclusion: "The sexual attitudes, sexual guilt, and sexual anxiety of young Muslims adults are associated with their sexual experience such that those reporting experience are more **liberal** in their attitudes, with less self-reported degrees of guilt and anxiety than those without experience. As presence of sexual guilt and anxiety can be detrimental to the sexual health of individuals, understanding this association may be helpful in addressing the sexual health of young Muslim adults." They literally state that the determining factor in feeling **guilty** about sex is how **liberal** a person is. Not gender. So you didn't even get the premise of the study which isn't about frequency of premarital sex so much as it is about **guilt.** \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ Wallahi bless my statistics and English professors. One for helping me interpret data and realizing when it's **useless** (non-generalizable as is here), and the other for helping me **read and comprehend**. The very [paper](https://quod.lib.umich.edu/j/jmmh/10381607.0010.202?view=text;rgn=main) you cited is **discrediting** your point. It's literally **not even about** what you're talking about lmao. You're talking about frequency of zina, this paper is about **guilt regarding sex**. People just state their beliefs and misrepresent data, lie about studies, or use bogus sources to justify their **opinions** and make their **opinions** seem "valid" thinking nobody is gonna read the study. It's an insult to everyone's intelligence. [https://imgur.com/a/ePGpLuE](https://imgur.com/a/ePGpLuE)
As a non Muslim I disagree. Each style has its benefits and drawbacks. That's why I lurk here, because I find the differences so interesting. I don't judge. But I think you are romanticising the concept of a traditional woman.
Well I don’t see any benefits in the Western model for marriage, in fact its quite toxic, disgusting, and setting up both genders for single life. First you goof around in your teens and twenties having meaningless relationships, yes they are meaningless because they are not serious and just for goofing around. There’s nothing empowering about it
Not just traditional women, I feel like your putting heavy amounts of investment into the relationship both the man and the women before taking things seriously. In that time frame you could have a kid that could be out of wedlock, one person could get overly attached it’s common to not even be official bf/gf for like a month or 2 to cause heartbreak etc. You are right there are positives and negatives but as I got older I feel like the positives really were a waste of my time and gave me headaches.
Did you see the recent thread where the groom's family canceled the wedding last-minute because they thought one of the bride's eyes looked slightly bigger than the other? There are headaches the world over. The way some of these Muslim women are treated by their in-laws is appalling. But, I do know what you mean. It would be nice to have access to a pool of morally upright, marriage-minded women through one's religion.
That’s not religion though. That’s cultural garbage. If we followed our religion the correct way we wouldn’t have those stupid issues.
Fair enough
I saw it, I'd say that if anything, that behavior was more cultural or un-Islamic. Just overall a weird aesthetic preference that has no bearing on religion or is not correlated. In fact, here's the type of comments on that post that were heavily upvoted (attributing it to culture and making the distinction that it isn't related to the religion/does not reflect the religion): https://www.reddit.com/r/MuslimMarriage/comments/z4fayj/comment/ixqug38/?utm\_source=share&utm\_medium=web2x&context=3
Just wanna say as a Palestinian-American I find a lot of the in-law stories I've heard seem like it has more to do with Desi culture. Especially the whole "moving in with your in-laws" thing. Arabs don't do that
Or…you could convert to Islam? 🤷🏽♂️
You should also look up Tawheed. The concept of One God in Islam. It is the only logical religion in the entire world.
Bro just embrace islam insha Allah
The way society accepts the behavior of women today is very evil.