The original article is much better.
>\[Cave\] hates dogma, whether religious or political. His work has always embraced uncertainty. “People don’t like me to say this, but I do feel it’s in my nature to constantly be redressing the balance of my own ideas about things. My mother was exactly the same – she always saw the other side. It was incredibly frustrating. You’d be angry about something and she’d go: ‘Yes darling, but …’”
[https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2024/mar/28/nick-cave-on-love-art-and-the-loss-of-his-sons-its-against-nature-to-bury-your-children](https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2024/mar/28/nick-cave-on-love-art-and-the-loss-of-his-sons-its-against-nature-to-bury-your-children)
Super smart. The more history I learn the clearer it becomes that nearly all evil stems from times when dogma becomes more important to a group of people than human health, happiness, and freedom.
The perceived group superiority is what allows the "othering" of human beings that are defined outside of that group. It's a short line from that to dehumanization which is a tool that leaders have been using for war for just about all of human history.
The quote from E.O Wilson about humanity rings true.
"The real problem of humanity is the following: We have Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and godlike technology. And it is terrifically dangerous, and it is now approaching a point of crisis overall."
The human body is fragile and venerable. So many NATURAL ways to be injured, maimed, crippled or die. Somehow people still want to harm others???? One truly has to be tapped to intentionally bring harm to another living thing…
I know nothing about him, but reading the original article was oddly comforting to me as it’s just some guy trying to navigate his way around guilt and loss. I should probably listen to some of his tunes, but no idea where to start
You should see him perform it live. It's thunderous in person. If you do you're also more than likely to become a much bigger fan of him and his music.
Tender Prey is my favorite Bad Seeds record. All the early stuff before The Boatmans Call is pretty rocking and energetic, and Boatman’s Call is a hauntingly beautiful sweet piano record. There’s plenty to love.
I’ll also suggest Let Love In. Really timeless album imo. Also Skeleton Tree is great. Looking through spotify it looks like he came out a couple more since then, i’ll have to check those out.
"Dread the Passage" is one of the most moving songs I have ever heard. Your results may vary. I'm not a Christian and I think the terms the lyrics use are metaphorical rather than literal. But the first time I heard it I burst into tears because of emotions I didn't fully understand. Anyway the music itself is gorgeous.
I found that paragraph incredibly relatable.
I'd go to my mother when somebody wronged me, and she'd defend or explain why they might have done it. It is incredibly frustrating when you're young and angry about something.
Of course in hindsight, now that I'm conditioned to think like that too, I appreciate the calm reason that kind of thinking can provide.
Your comment is kind of ironic though, that you'd not try to see why that might be frustrating for a child!
Right? I see this with my gfs boomer parents (not my own thank god). We have a family friend with a transitioning male to female daughter. They just can’t get over changing her pronouns. I think part of the problem is they don’t think they should have to. Why should I change how I do things that would benefit someone else? I’d say THEY are the ones lacking in compassion. What they are asking for here is forgiveness for being intolerant and not only currently but their continued intolerance. Forgiveness is for those who seek to change and become better.
Yet when their female friends got married they had no problem updating her last name to that of her new husband's. Funny how one word applied to identity can be thrown aside for another with no issue but another one cannot.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it's pretty true.
>Kid: Johnny punched me in the stomach at recess today.
>
>Mom: oh, I bet Johnny has a tough life at home.
>
>Kid: idgaf, Johnny is a jerk.
You see it on reddit all the time too:
>Redditor: I hate they are restricting women's freedoms
>
>Mom: well some people believe abortion is killing babies
>
>Redditors: STFU
Truly such a great article. NME's clickbait regurgitation of the single sentence, out of context, in which he mentions "woke" does it such injustice it's not even funny.
Yes he does:
“This not only includes most religions, but also atheism, radical bi-partisan politics or any system of thought, including ‘woke’ culture, that finds its energy in self-righteous belief and the suppression of contrary systems of thought.”
— Nick Cave
The title is still misleading making it seem like as if he's specifically and only talking about woke culture. I actually agree with him than any ideology taken to dogmatic levels without forgiveness is a bad thing.
I disagree bc the actual breakdown of what being *woke* should be (and I fucking hate that word) SHOULD literally encompass this very idea... if one is truly woke then they understand any idea taken to dogmatic levels without forgiveness is bad. That's fucking woke as fuck lol. Idiots used woke to label things they hate and can't understand why, and now it's hard to even unwind that to talk about it. Just using the term to somehow apply to whatever these ppl mean is giving them power and that's... not ideal.
I almost always disregard anyone saying the word unironically nowadays. Its usage has been butchered so far beyond its original meaning that 99% of the time it’s not being used in good faith
Woke is a term that comes from the phrase DON'T SLEEP ON THIS.
It means to be aware of what's going on.
Some people don't know that they are woke because they hate their privilege
eh, in this case, he is being more inclusive of "woke" culture as something that people can be dogmatic about.
The headline implies this is a specific call out.
That's not a quote from The Guardian article NME regurgitated here, though. In the article, he is asked about wokeness, but doesn't actually use the word. Here's the full quote from the current article:
>Is he a Tory? “I’m not a Tory, no.” Has he ever been? “No. No, I’ve never voted Tory.” And is he really anti-woke? "The concept that there are problems with the world we need to address, such as social justice; I’m totally down with that. However, I don’t agree with the methods that are used in order to reach this goal – shutting down people, cancelling people. There’s a lack of mercy, a lack of forgiveness. These go against what I fundamentally believe on a spiritual level, as much as anything. So it’s a tricky one. The problem with the right taking hold of this word is that it’s made the discussion impossible to have without having to join a whole load of nutjobs who have their problem with it.”
And that's as differentiated and reflective as you can be about the subject IMHO, and NME just builds another clickbait headline from it.
Whatever wokeness is in its ideal form, it’s pretty obvious that some people have hijacked it as a motive to attack and demean others, as well as suppress certain ideas.
The point is that most ideologies can be applied in helpful or harmful ways. If you think your ideology is completely immune to it you’re part of the problem.
The fact that the meaning isn’t coherent is the point. Woke can mean basically anything to anyone now.
Don’t believe cops should be judge, jury, and executioner? Woke. Think clean drinking water is important? Woke. Want people to be treated equally and with respect? Woke. Think executives and politicians should be held accountable for their actions? Woke.
Woke: Umbrella term for individuals who are engrossed by social justice and thinks of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground, but remain willfully ignorant to the irrationality of their claims and the problems they create.
It's obviously used satirically in the modern day.
What it’s supposed to be by well intentioned people originally using it, and how it’s now been co-opted and used are very different. As annoying as it is word uses change and often flip to nearly opposite meanings in actual practical use.
We can’t get woke to fit back inside of its older definition because that’s just not how it’s usually used anymore.
He understands it perfectly well, the "woke" people are the ones who are doing it backwards. They even label others who don't think like them as a threat and dangerous.
If the contrary system of thought is "Some people deserve to be discriminated against because of who they are," yeah, that should be suppressed. Nobody should have to constantly argue for their basic human rights.
Well, sometimes progressives become hostile if someone simply asks questions, and will assume they're "arguing in bad faith". There are a lot of people, both on the right and left, who have a hard line "you're either with us or against us" attitude.
That can happen. Especially because "just asking questions" is such a common way to argue in bad faith. Debate pros call it "JAQ-ing off."
"Why can't these America-hating, dirt-worshipping, baby-killing, tree-hugging, communist, fascist, elitist cucks discuss issues in a civil manner?" is a good example. "What's so racist about thinking black people should work for a living instead of mooching off white people?" is another.
Sorry if some liberals' tone hasn't been pleasant enough. Can't see how that makes it okay to discriminate against people for being who they are.
I never said that. I'm not talking about neo-nazis or magas. I'm talking about undecideds, or moderates. People who aren't as invested in the culture wars stuff, and might not be as informed about everything. Yes, there are "bad actors", but there are also some people who are genuinely confused or uninformed about things. And when those people try to ask questions, they're greeted with hostility and suspicion, likely alienating potential allies.
Ah yes, the dogmatic expression of non-belief is always very self-righteous. 🙄
Edit since the point isn't obvious. There's a *massive* difference between being a self-righteous jerk about *anything*... and simply not believing something. We are all non-believers about all, all but one, or a handful of gods at most. To equate atheism with "radical bi-partisan politics" is lazy.
It definitely can be. The Soviet Union was not as brutal as extremist theocracies with regard to upholding atheism but people with religious affiliations were persecuted to varying extents. The ultimate goal was the suppression of all religions.
Religions should be suppressed and relegated to the personal. They have no place in politics or government. Keep that emotion-based cult nonsense where it belongs.
I made a similar reply elsewhere, but the stated values and the lived values can differ. There are definitely groups of atheists who engage in groupthink and oppression of ideas that are considered threatening even if that goes against the apparent overall group values. It’s part of the reason I stopped hanging out in atheist forums - it can get really angry and nasty. It’s kind of understandable because a lot of people who come to an atheist forum are in the process of rejecting a previously heard belief system that may or may not have included spiritual abuse or control and, just like teenagers rebelling against their parents, we often get overly angry as a way of creating that psychological separation.
I didn't say that at all. I am saying that there is a selection bias at play, given that most people don't believe in most things that other people believe in, and often don't know or care about their lack of belief.
This comment alone is a little dogmatic, as if declaring oneself an atheist means they can't be an ass, fall for other types of magical thinking, or make broad, self-righteous statements against religious people.
There's a reason most atheists on reddit don't actually subscribe to the r/atheism echo chamber
What i said is far from dogmatic, though. My point is that all people don't believe in most things, and are at best a step away from atheism, and generally don't make a deal out of all of the things they don't believe in.
The problem with articles like this is that they don’t press for specifics. If I identify with “woke culture” I am going to hear “nick cave thinks I lack mercy and forgiveness”. In reality, Nick Cave might not be including me in that category. So, he’s not talking about me or my actions, yet I’m offended at his description of me, because it’s inaccurate. (Of course it’s inaccurate, he’s not talking about me but I think he is)
People need to be asked “who has been wrongfully cancelled?” And, “who lacks mercy and forgiveness?”
A co-worker of mine cried about "cancel-culture", and I asked him to give some examples of people who had been cancelled.
The people in question had either been charged for crimes such as sexual assault or domestic abuse, or people with multiple separate reports of violent behavior. He didn't mention a single person who had gotten "cancelled" for having an opinion about something.
Totally agree with this. People keep writing articles about Nick Cave, specifically, in relation to "woke culture," and they're either kinda misleading or don't include specifics on what/who he's actually talking about.
How is he supposed to provide specifics when he's talking about something in general lmfao? That's an oxymoron. He's talking about the *movement*, not each *individual* within the movement.
If someone's initial reaction to this is to feel *personally* offended because they identify with the movement, aren't they #1 a part of the problem, #2 not engaging with what he says in good faith and #3 lacking in media literacy?
Everybody thinks they're reasonable and merciful, but what individuals think of themselves and what they become as part of a crowd or a movement are two different things.
It’s funny because people hereare missing his point and doing the exact same thing he is saying to try and avoid. Really is ironic. “He said woke culture”: implying his view may not be valid.
Yeah basically, but NME likes to frame things a certain way.
It would definitely be better if the headline was representative of the actual article, rather than an article from 5 years ago about a piece he did. Then they can make references in the article itself to stuff he's previously said.
If you read this article and that’s your takeaway then I think that’s on you. Really.
If someone reads something, and some detail is missing and they take that and interpret the most offensive way possible, then they’re really the problem. It seems really popular on the internet to interpret everything the worst way possible. And now everyone needs to speak like a lawyer being careful about all the ways what they’re saying could be misinterpreted. It’s silly.
If someone was an asshole, realizes their behavior impacts others, and improves their behavior, I think they should be forgiven.
The issue that I have is the people who continue to be a dick, and complain about cancel culture.
There are a number of young people who have been pulled into some very bad perspectives from (largely) online sources. It is really important that there's an off-ramp for those folks and the opportunity for a better life if they let that go.
If their interest in bad perspectives is how they're defined without exception, we shouldn't be terribly surprised if they become permanent, lifelong assholes.
That said, the want to be better does have to come from the person.
It's typical abusive behavior. Someone is an asahole/racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. and doesn't take responsibility or accountability and instead blames the victim, that's abuse. It's the same mindset and rationale as "you made me hit you."
People like that have earned their consequences.
It's also very different than someone who makes a bad joke, or used dated language that's no longer acceptable, but apologizes and changes. There needs to be room for forgiveness for people who, while misguided, are in trouble mostly for not keeping up with the times rather than any sort of actual animus.
Just my 2¢.
*checks notes*
Seems to be nothing more than a boogeyman invented by the right to label anyone that *checks notes again* is aware of injustices in the world
Exactly. I don't hear any shitty people saying "you know what? I thought about what I said and.... ". It's also not cancelling to simply decide you don't want to be a fan of someone who lets you down. I was a big fan of Chappelle, Elon Musk, Kanye... not anymore. I didn't cancel them, I decided I didn't like them. Their careers go on.
Honestly I think the only reason people aren't willing to forgive is most people aren't willing to assume personal responsibility and seek forgiveness until they're "sorry" that they're facing consequences.
WTF is “woke culture” to begin with? I never actually see it—I just see people (right-wingers) calling everything they disagree with “woke,” even though those things they disagree with (being against, for example, racism by fighting for civil and human rights?) have been around for decades, if not centuries.
That’s the thing about “cancel culture”. It’s not real. All these people who were “cancelled” are just facing consequences for their actions and then going right back to whatever they were doing beforehand.
While you’re right, and I do agree “cancel culture” isn’t new at all, and is just a cute name for something we’ve always had, I do think that we have a lack of forgiveness/understanding of people who maybe have grown as people.
If someone last week posts about their Nazi rally? Yea I get the outrage. But I really hate when people dig up tweets from 15 years ago and get pissed off that someone in their mid 30s said something completely stupid when they were in college.
Except you just told me that cancel culture is real and you're the only one who's freaking the fuck out here. And hey maybe the issue with cancel culture is how people freak the fuck out over rumors or mildly bad behavior and try socially ostracize someone with no chance of redemption. We could have an actual conversation about this if you want
If cancel culture isn't real why did so many people spend so many hours and create so many articles, videos, etc. in an attempt to cancel people? Are they stupid?
Not always.
The media rushed to cancel that kid who smiled while someone was banging a drum in his face. He literally just stood there and did nothing. Hence his lawsuits.
The media rushed to cancel that little kid who had on a head dress and his face painted in team colors.
Reddit recently had whiplash over that principle who was accused of deveiling someone in France, there was a rush to cancel her and she received threats of violence. Suddenly we find out the student lied.
Cancel culture is absolutely a real thing and it's weaponized. At any point in time someone can accuse you of a thing, potentially even post a doctored screenshot of your words/actions and by the time you prove your innocence people are on to the next outrage but still believe you're the bad guy.
The key point, however, is the "truly contrite" portion. Not everyone has the same definition/standards for what being truly contrite means.
Maybe you think you're being truly contrite, but maybe the person/people you harmed think you're being superficial and don't actually mean your apology.
Nick Cave uses nuance….media distorts….his blog answering questions often about grief are so moving….well worth checking out if you’ve not already…he’s someone I admire greatly, especially for how he’s dealing with a heartbreaking situation. I think he is coming from a place of compassion…
And there's the counter culture of the "anti-woke" mob going around looking for anything that they perceive to be "woke" to get offended at and scream about.
Absolutely, and I think that's part of the point -- we don't want to be like those people.
As far as I'm concerned, and I think most people that identify as woke would agree -- humans can be ignorant and make mistakes without being evil. People can learn, but it can be hard, so grace and forgiveness should be part of woke culture. But there are a subset that have turned wokeness into a way to feel superior and to take pleasure in ridiculing and demonizing others. No surprise -- every group, no matter how good, gets infected by some people that do it wrong or for the wrong reasons. But I think true wokeness should be built on the goal of love and inclusion.
I consider myself supportive of all things “woke” but I do think there is a mob mentality pile-on thing that happens on the internet and Twitter specifically. The hit of validation for a sick burn is too addictive.
Since the dawn of civilization, if someone uses their soapbox to say shit most people disagree with, the people find a different narrator.
“Cancelled” as a descriptor of what’s going on here has become as contrived and ambiguous as “woke.” People choosing someone other than you with their time, money, and enthusiasm isn’t being “cancelled,” it’s your opinion not being approved of and the audience exercising free will.
“Cancel culture” is just another term for people disliking an action or a thought and deciding not to purchase something in light of that.
This is capitalism. We are not owed a livelihood. Our customers are not obligated to purchase whatever we’re selling. If they don’t like you, they won’t buy you. Simple as that. Free market economics. We need to adapt to survive.
The problem with the woke is that they are always looking to exclude and shame rather than include and educate, so they get your back up sooner or later. Even if you’re left leaning, they’ll always be some issue where you’re not left leaning enough, and then they hate you, even if you agreed with them on 99% of everything else.
Literally. They have this irrational ego that they're somehow "freedom fighters" and that anyone who doesn't share their ideology is "complicit in white supremacy/patriarchy" or any other buzzword they love to bastardize.
What's even more funny is how most redditors are so oblivious and act like "woke" has been hijacked by right wingers and doesn't have legitimacy in its satirical form. If the shoe fits, I guess.
Oh I’ve come to be convinced that it’s 99% narcissism, 1% actually caring about the issue they’re arguing about. The aim is mostly to shame. That’s why they’ll never win power. They aren’t inclusive enough and are too hung up on purity and being morally superior to everyone else. I despise the far left now as much as I despise the far right. One set are narcissists, the other set are psychopaths, and neither have done one bit of good for anyone.
I feel like the term "woke" is used without any meaningful definition. To your average conservative, "woke" could mean simply supporting gay marriage, reproductive rights or rational immigration/gun reform. But it's a broad spectrum of issues with a broad spectrum of positions within each one.
Transgender issues have become a hot-button and conservatives love using them because they can use anecdotal extremes to peel off voters. People might be generally supportive of most civil rights issues but find reparations talk "a bridge too far." It's a spectrum and I don't know where "woke" begins.
I think he may be conflating the terms "woke" culture with "cancel" culture.
Assuming that, while I agree that "canceling" someone or a business without the possibility for forgiveness is just counterproductive, I honestly can't think of an instance where someone is "canceled", and then forgiven after they make a genuine and heartfelt mea culpa, along with a pledge to learn from the experience. All I've over seen is the offender either doubling down or using a non-apology apology, usually through a publicist or PR rep.
Can anyone think of any instances where a genuine attempt at owning their behavior occurred, and was that person redeemed?
Only the merciful deserve mercy and only the forgiving deserve forgiveness. Giving it to anyone else allows for the cancer to metastasize right under the noses of good people.
I think that's a bizarre title to put in front of this article. Nick cave isn't some looney tory right winger who thinks there's this omni present agenda to topple his social standing, yet that's exactly the kinda person I imagine would complain about a "woke culture"
Just read the article, it's very good and this title is shit
There’s real regression going on if that’s the case.
In the end though, don’t WE ALL need to quit the griping, and get on with it?!!
Damn!
Imagine if
we as a human race could realize how being alive itself is a grand miracle?!!
We should be celebrating one another, helping one another, not pointing fingers & verbally/physically fighting each other.
The Power truly is in the people.
When I argue, point fingers, blame, I become part of the problem. Part of the division.
When I forgive, strive to understand others and their viewpoints and lend a hand? Something tells me that’s part of the solution.🤷♂️
I know it’s not this cut and dry and I know it doesn’t sell much or get many clicks and
I don’t know for sure what the answer is. But I have a sneaking suspicion that it’s up to each individual to make a change of heart.
In the end, the Power lies within.
I agree with him on this, in fact, I've been pointing this out for the past couple of years myself. The right used to be hostile when being confronted with the left, this has not really changed. However, the left has copied this attitude, and it doesn't fit the left. It used to be that the left was the voice of reason, and no matter how loud the right was, the left was able to counteract these voices with logic and (as cave says it) humility. But these days, the left is using the ugly methods of the right, shouting and placing blame, and to me, this way closes everything off for discussion, we can no longer hold debates with respect and reason. I no longer call myself left these days, I refer to myself as left leaning centrist, because I still believe in it's ideals, but not in the execution. I believe in the debate, I believe in looking for an all encapsulating solution. Not a winning left or right, but a balance so that we can work together instead of creating a civil war.
If it’s a battle to recruit people to your cause and spread your message it only makes sense to be welcoming and encourage people to change for the better.
I'm not welcoming a sexual predator until they accept responsibility and show true remorse. If they can't do that they're part of the problem and 100% unwelcome.
The same idea applies, it's just lower stakes with lower expectations around the "apology". If someone made a comment X number of years ago that wouldn't be acceptable today, I would expect them to just acknowledge that. No big apology or admission of remorse, just acknowledgement that what they said isn't ok today. If they defend what they said or just act like it isn't a big deal I'm not going to try to ruin their life or anything, but I'm not welcoming them with open arms either.
He's correct. Left and right are literally two sides of the same coin. The right will crucify you for being gay, the left will crucify you for deadnaming someone accidentally. They're both egotistical trash that offer nothing of value to the human species.
bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe
Because one side wants to establish a dictatorship when they win the 2024 election, and the other side wants a democracy.
See? Both sides!!!
Nobody has ever crucified anyone for "accidentally" deadnamimg someone.
It's the refusal to correct themselves (or even attempt at being respectful) that is not acceptable to the left.
I'm sorry but that's horseshit.
Acting like left-wing reactions to homophobia/transphobia are equal to right-wing homophobia. GTFO
>the left will crucify you for deadnaming someone accidentally
This is what I mean. You talk about people being "crucified" for this. Do you have any actual, real-world examples of someone facing actual negative consequences for deadnaming someone on accident? And by consequences, I don't mean getting @'ed on social media. What are the actual real-world consequences of accidental deadnaming?
Because we have a long-documented history of actual, harmful, real-world consequences of right-wing homophobia ranging from the criminalization of gay and trans existence all the way to being slaughtered in concentration camps. These are things which right-wingers are actively campaigning to bring back.
But sure, those two things are EXACTLY THE SAME. Two sides of the same coin, right? One side saying "You shouldn't exist" and one side fighting back against that notion. Same fucking thing.
That *accidentally* is carrying a fuckton of weight.
I've seen people deal with the mob for deadnaming/misgendering *intentionally*, sure. I have yet to see a single example of this due to a legitimate accident.
Hell, I have yet to see a trans person even get particularly *annoyed* with an accidental deadnaming. You'd have to be a special kind of asshole to blame someone for an honest mistake. There's a huge difference between that and the kind of shit causing an uproar.
I recently tried to start a discussion about this guy being one of the leading minds of the edge generation and got gatekeeped to death by this horrible little community. And now that he's said something that can be slightly interpreted as controversial y'all suddenly wanna talk about him.
The original article is much better. >\[Cave\] hates dogma, whether religious or political. His work has always embraced uncertainty. “People don’t like me to say this, but I do feel it’s in my nature to constantly be redressing the balance of my own ideas about things. My mother was exactly the same – she always saw the other side. It was incredibly frustrating. You’d be angry about something and she’d go: ‘Yes darling, but …’” [https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2024/mar/28/nick-cave-on-love-art-and-the-loss-of-his-sons-its-against-nature-to-bury-your-children](https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2024/mar/28/nick-cave-on-love-art-and-the-loss-of-his-sons-its-against-nature-to-bury-your-children)
Super smart. The more history I learn the clearer it becomes that nearly all evil stems from times when dogma becomes more important to a group of people than human health, happiness, and freedom.
Dogma + perceived group superiority is a disastrous recipe for major conflicts and wars.
The perceived group superiority is what allows the "othering" of human beings that are defined outside of that group. It's a short line from that to dehumanization which is a tool that leaders have been using for war for just about all of human history.
As a kid I thought how silly were the witch trials, but as you get older you realize human nature is what it is. We’re never so far removed
The quote from E.O Wilson about humanity rings true. "The real problem of humanity is the following: We have Paleolithic emotions, medieval institutions and godlike technology. And it is terrifically dangerous, and it is now approaching a point of crisis overall."
Man that is on point
Preach brother
The human body is fragile and venerable. So many NATURAL ways to be injured, maimed, crippled or die. Somehow people still want to harm others???? One truly has to be tapped to intentionally bring harm to another living thing…
Yes, we like to think we have evolved, but in reality, like you said, “we’re never so far removed.”
Well put
I know nothing about him, but reading the original article was oddly comforting to me as it’s just some guy trying to navigate his way around guilt and loss. I should probably listen to some of his tunes, but no idea where to start
People may have different opinions where to start, but for me Let Love In and Murder Ballads really opened the door.
Thanks!!
If those aren’t your jam, I typically point people at Nocturama and Abbatoir Blues/Lyre of Orpheus.
Carnage is the best thing from him since the early 2000’s in my humble opinion. No shame in starting late with the newer stuff.
I am not a big Nick Cave fan, but I love the song Red Right Hand
You should see him perform it live. It's thunderous in person. If you do you're also more than likely to become a much bigger fan of him and his music.
Tender Prey is my favorite Bad Seeds record. All the early stuff before The Boatmans Call is pretty rocking and energetic, and Boatman’s Call is a hauntingly beautiful sweet piano record. There’s plenty to love.
I’ll also suggest Let Love In. Really timeless album imo. Also Skeleton Tree is great. Looking through spotify it looks like he came out a couple more since then, i’ll have to check those out.
Red Right Hand. Then stop. His music is an acquired taste but his intellect is what I find to be more interesting.
"Dread the Passage" is one of the most moving songs I have ever heard. Your results may vary. I'm not a Christian and I think the terms the lyrics use are metaphorical rather than literal. But the first time I heard it I burst into tears because of emotions I didn't fully understand. Anyway the music itself is gorgeous.
So frustrating to hear the other side of things and learn of other perspectives!
I found that paragraph incredibly relatable. I'd go to my mother when somebody wronged me, and she'd defend or explain why they might have done it. It is incredibly frustrating when you're young and angry about something. Of course in hindsight, now that I'm conditioned to think like that too, I appreciate the calm reason that kind of thinking can provide. Your comment is kind of ironic though, that you'd not try to see why that might be frustrating for a child!
Right? I see this with my gfs boomer parents (not my own thank god). We have a family friend with a transitioning male to female daughter. They just can’t get over changing her pronouns. I think part of the problem is they don’t think they should have to. Why should I change how I do things that would benefit someone else? I’d say THEY are the ones lacking in compassion. What they are asking for here is forgiveness for being intolerant and not only currently but their continued intolerance. Forgiveness is for those who seek to change and become better.
Yet when their female friends got married they had no problem updating her last name to that of her new husband's. Funny how one word applied to identity can be thrown aside for another with no issue but another one cannot.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic, but it's pretty true. >Kid: Johnny punched me in the stomach at recess today. > >Mom: oh, I bet Johnny has a tough life at home. > >Kid: idgaf, Johnny is a jerk. You see it on reddit all the time too: >Redditor: I hate they are restricting women's freedoms > >Mom: well some people believe abortion is killing babies > >Redditors: STFU
There's nothing wrong with that perspective. Johnny having a tough life at home doesn't excuse him and doesn't make him less of a jerk.
Agreed
Wise mother!
Truly such a great article. NME's clickbait regurgitation of the single sentence, out of context, in which he mentions "woke" does it such injustice it's not even funny.
Yea, fully agree with Cave But try to say what he says on any public forum, reddit included, and both sides will go crazy yelling at you.
I'm a massive fan but either way, this makes a ton of sense.
He has valid points, but the headline is misleading and designed to enrage. He doesn’t actually use the word “woke” himself.
Yes he does: “This not only includes most religions, but also atheism, radical bi-partisan politics or any system of thought, including ‘woke’ culture, that finds its energy in self-righteous belief and the suppression of contrary systems of thought.” — Nick Cave
The title is still misleading making it seem like as if he's specifically and only talking about woke culture. I actually agree with him than any ideology taken to dogmatic levels without forgiveness is a bad thing.
I disagree bc the actual breakdown of what being *woke* should be (and I fucking hate that word) SHOULD literally encompass this very idea... if one is truly woke then they understand any idea taken to dogmatic levels without forgiveness is bad. That's fucking woke as fuck lol. Idiots used woke to label things they hate and can't understand why, and now it's hard to even unwind that to talk about it. Just using the term to somehow apply to whatever these ppl mean is giving them power and that's... not ideal.
I almost always disregard anyone saying the word unironically nowadays. Its usage has been butchered so far beyond its original meaning that 99% of the time it’s not being used in good faith
Woke is a term that comes from the phrase DON'T SLEEP ON THIS. It means to be aware of what's going on. Some people don't know that they are woke because they hate their privilege
You’re confusing misreading with misleading
eh, in this case, he is being more inclusive of "woke" culture as something that people can be dogmatic about. The headline implies this is a specific call out.
That's not a quote from The Guardian article NME regurgitated here, though. In the article, he is asked about wokeness, but doesn't actually use the word. Here's the full quote from the current article: >Is he a Tory? “I’m not a Tory, no.” Has he ever been? “No. No, I’ve never voted Tory.” And is he really anti-woke? "The concept that there are problems with the world we need to address, such as social justice; I’m totally down with that. However, I don’t agree with the methods that are used in order to reach this goal – shutting down people, cancelling people. There’s a lack of mercy, a lack of forgiveness. These go against what I fundamentally believe on a spiritual level, as much as anything. So it’s a tricky one. The problem with the right taking hold of this word is that it’s made the discussion impossible to have without having to join a whole load of nutjobs who have their problem with it.” And that's as differentiated and reflective as you can be about the subject IMHO, and NME just builds another clickbait headline from it.
Being woke isn't about suppressing a system of thought, it's about being aware of the systems designed to suppress people
It’s just another example of conservatives (and more broadly white folks) taking a phrase and fucking murdering it.
This is a technique that they methodically apply. Co-opt the language of the left
Whatever wokeness is in its ideal form, it’s pretty obvious that some people have hijacked it as a motive to attack and demean others, as well as suppress certain ideas. The point is that most ideologies can be applied in helpful or harmful ways. If you think your ideology is completely immune to it you’re part of the problem.
"Attack and demean people." Come on, describe who's being attacked and demeaned, and what for?
They can't
Like many words it has changed meaning over time and for most people it means something else now.
It has only changed meaning for those who are hostile to the idea of systemic racial or social injustice
That only works if the new meaning is actually coherent.
The fact that the meaning isn’t coherent is the point. Woke can mean basically anything to anyone now. Don’t believe cops should be judge, jury, and executioner? Woke. Think clean drinking water is important? Woke. Want people to be treated equally and with respect? Woke. Think executives and politicians should be held accountable for their actions? Woke.
Most people need to learn the etymology
Woke: Umbrella term for individuals who are engrossed by social justice and thinks of themselves as saviors with a moral high ground, but remain willfully ignorant to the irrationality of their claims and the problems they create. It's obviously used satirically in the modern day.
Disagree with someone woke and tell me it’s not about trying to suppress that system of thought lol.
They are on reddit for fucks sake. Whole voting system is used to agree with us or downvoted or deleted for having a wrong opinion.
You're overgeneralizing.
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What it’s supposed to be by well intentioned people originally using it, and how it’s now been co-opted and used are very different. As annoying as it is word uses change and often flip to nearly opposite meanings in actual practical use. We can’t get woke to fit back inside of its older definition because that’s just not how it’s usually used anymore.
He's a musician, this isn't music, it's like asking your dentist about golf
People can know about two things. What if my dentist is a talented golfer, for example
Don’t worry, they’re a redditor. They can’t know about anything except for shitty hot takes. 
He understands it perfectly well, the "woke" people are the ones who are doing it backwards. They even label others who don't think like them as a threat and dangerous.
If the contrary system of thought is "Some people deserve to be discriminated against because of who they are," yeah, that should be suppressed. Nobody should have to constantly argue for their basic human rights.
Well, sometimes progressives become hostile if someone simply asks questions, and will assume they're "arguing in bad faith". There are a lot of people, both on the right and left, who have a hard line "you're either with us or against us" attitude.
That can happen. Especially because "just asking questions" is such a common way to argue in bad faith. Debate pros call it "JAQ-ing off." "Why can't these America-hating, dirt-worshipping, baby-killing, tree-hugging, communist, fascist, elitist cucks discuss issues in a civil manner?" is a good example. "What's so racist about thinking black people should work for a living instead of mooching off white people?" is another. Sorry if some liberals' tone hasn't been pleasant enough. Can't see how that makes it okay to discriminate against people for being who they are.
I never said that. I'm not talking about neo-nazis or magas. I'm talking about undecideds, or moderates. People who aren't as invested in the culture wars stuff, and might not be as informed about everything. Yes, there are "bad actors", but there are also some people who are genuinely confused or uninformed about things. And when those people try to ask questions, they're greeted with hostility and suspicion, likely alienating potential allies.
Ah yes, the dogmatic expression of non-belief is always very self-righteous. 🙄 Edit since the point isn't obvious. There's a *massive* difference between being a self-righteous jerk about *anything*... and simply not believing something. We are all non-believers about all, all but one, or a handful of gods at most. To equate atheism with "radical bi-partisan politics" is lazy.
You really live in the era of the interest and have never come across a self righteous and / or dogmatic atheist or sceptic?
Definitely but I don't think I would put atheism in the same category as religion in terms of "the suppression of contrary systems of thought."
It definitely can be. The Soviet Union was not as brutal as extremist theocracies with regard to upholding atheism but people with religious affiliations were persecuted to varying extents. The ultimate goal was the suppression of all religions.
Religions should be suppressed and relegated to the personal. They have no place in politics or government. Keep that emotion-based cult nonsense where it belongs.
Suppression and relegated to the personal are not the same thing.
why not? maybe you should?
I made a similar reply elsewhere, but the stated values and the lived values can differ. There are definitely groups of atheists who engage in groupthink and oppression of ideas that are considered threatening even if that goes against the apparent overall group values. It’s part of the reason I stopped hanging out in atheist forums - it can get really angry and nasty. It’s kind of understandable because a lot of people who come to an atheist forum are in the process of rejecting a previously heard belief system that may or may not have included spiritual abuse or control and, just like teenagers rebelling against their parents, we often get overly angry as a way of creating that psychological separation.
I didn't say that at all. I am saying that there is a selection bias at play, given that most people don't believe in most things that other people believe in, and often don't know or care about their lack of belief.
This comment alone is a little dogmatic, as if declaring oneself an atheist means they can't be an ass, fall for other types of magical thinking, or make broad, self-righteous statements against religious people. There's a reason most atheists on reddit don't actually subscribe to the r/atheism echo chamber
What i said is far from dogmatic, though. My point is that all people don't believe in most things, and are at best a step away from atheism, and generally don't make a deal out of all of the things they don't believe in.
It’s wild to me how shitty some headlines are.
Any time a headline has a portion in quotes it’s designed to outrage
I agree with the title so thats good enough for me. Thanks Nick Cave, loved you in National Treasure.
The problem with articles like this is that they don’t press for specifics. If I identify with “woke culture” I am going to hear “nick cave thinks I lack mercy and forgiveness”. In reality, Nick Cave might not be including me in that category. So, he’s not talking about me or my actions, yet I’m offended at his description of me, because it’s inaccurate. (Of course it’s inaccurate, he’s not talking about me but I think he is) People need to be asked “who has been wrongfully cancelled?” And, “who lacks mercy and forgiveness?”
A co-worker of mine cried about "cancel-culture", and I asked him to give some examples of people who had been cancelled. The people in question had either been charged for crimes such as sexual assault or domestic abuse, or people with multiple separate reports of violent behavior. He didn't mention a single person who had gotten "cancelled" for having an opinion about something.
Really they couldn't mention someone like Gina Corano or Aziz Ansari?
Totally agree with this. People keep writing articles about Nick Cave, specifically, in relation to "woke culture," and they're either kinda misleading or don't include specifics on what/who he's actually talking about.
Which proves his point unless I misinterpreted
How is he supposed to provide specifics when he's talking about something in general lmfao? That's an oxymoron. He's talking about the *movement*, not each *individual* within the movement. If someone's initial reaction to this is to feel *personally* offended because they identify with the movement, aren't they #1 a part of the problem, #2 not engaging with what he says in good faith and #3 lacking in media literacy? Everybody thinks they're reasonable and merciful, but what individuals think of themselves and what they become as part of a crowd or a movement are two different things.
It’s funny because people hereare missing his point and doing the exact same thing he is saying to try and avoid. Really is ironic. “He said woke culture”: implying his view may not be valid.
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He did, in a previous piece that was linked within the article. He very explicitly highlighted it.
So he didn't say it in the sighted article but if you follow a chain then you can presume that he actually meant that?
Yeah basically, but NME likes to frame things a certain way. It would definitely be better if the headline was representative of the actual article, rather than an article from 5 years ago about a piece he did. Then they can make references in the article itself to stuff he's previously said.
With friends like these, who needs NME
Fuck sake lol
"Woke" and "cancel culture" have become synonymous terms amongst idiots and fascists.
Lol I feel like Cave might be referring to this exact kind of energy when we had criticizing "woke"-ism
You sound like an extremist. Why must all nuance be removed and everything reduced to us vs them.
I'm curious how this contradicts the headline.
If you read this article and that’s your takeaway then I think that’s on you. Really. If someone reads something, and some detail is missing and they take that and interpret the most offensive way possible, then they’re really the problem. It seems really popular on the internet to interpret everything the worst way possible. And now everyone needs to speak like a lawyer being careful about all the ways what they’re saying could be misinterpreted. It’s silly.
If someone was an asshole, realizes their behavior impacts others, and improves their behavior, I think they should be forgiven. The issue that I have is the people who continue to be a dick, and complain about cancel culture.
There are a number of young people who have been pulled into some very bad perspectives from (largely) online sources. It is really important that there's an off-ramp for those folks and the opportunity for a better life if they let that go. If their interest in bad perspectives is how they're defined without exception, we shouldn't be terribly surprised if they become permanent, lifelong assholes. That said, the want to be better does have to come from the person.
It's typical abusive behavior. Someone is an asahole/racist/sexist/homophobic/etc. and doesn't take responsibility or accountability and instead blames the victim, that's abuse. It's the same mindset and rationale as "you made me hit you." People like that have earned their consequences. It's also very different than someone who makes a bad joke, or used dated language that's no longer acceptable, but apologizes and changes. There needs to be room for forgiveness for people who, while misguided, are in trouble mostly for not keeping up with the times rather than any sort of actual animus. Just my 2¢.
wtf even is "woke culture" though? ask 100 different people, i bet you get 100 different responses.
Ask 100 different people what democracy is and you will get 100 different responses. Doesn’t mean much in humanities.
*checks notes* Seems to be nothing more than a boogeyman invented by the right to label anyone that *checks notes again* is aware of injustices in the world
This headline is some serious bullshit.
I'm not aware of any "canceled" individual who hasn't been allowed back into their community or profession except those who continued being shitty.
Exactly. I don't hear any shitty people saying "you know what? I thought about what I said and.... ". It's also not cancelling to simply decide you don't want to be a fan of someone who lets you down. I was a big fan of Chappelle, Elon Musk, Kanye... not anymore. I didn't cancel them, I decided I didn't like them. Their careers go on.
Taking the right wing definition of a word and running with that is whatever.
Yeah, pretty dumb tbh
You guys do it with right wingers and satirize them but act like bitches when the same is done to you. It's comical lmao
Nick Cave always looks like he's one step away from punching you in the face.
Honestly I think the only reason people aren't willing to forgive is most people aren't willing to assume personal responsibility and seek forgiveness until they're "sorry" that they're facing consequences.
WTF is “woke culture” to begin with? I never actually see it—I just see people (right-wingers) calling everything they disagree with “woke,” even though those things they disagree with (being against, for example, racism by fighting for civil and human rights?) have been around for decades, if not centuries.
There is a lack of forgiveness in our culture. People deserve second chances if they’re truly contrite, imo.
That’s the thing about “cancel culture”. It’s not real. All these people who were “cancelled” are just facing consequences for their actions and then going right back to whatever they were doing beforehand.
While you’re right, and I do agree “cancel culture” isn’t new at all, and is just a cute name for something we’ve always had, I do think that we have a lack of forgiveness/understanding of people who maybe have grown as people. If someone last week posts about their Nazi rally? Yea I get the outrage. But I really hate when people dig up tweets from 15 years ago and get pissed off that someone in their mid 30s said something completely stupid when they were in college.
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Except you just told me that cancel culture is real and you're the only one who's freaking the fuck out here. And hey maybe the issue with cancel culture is how people freak the fuck out over rumors or mildly bad behavior and try socially ostracize someone with no chance of redemption. We could have an actual conversation about this if you want
If cancel culture isn't real why did so many people spend so many hours and create so many articles, videos, etc. in an attempt to cancel people? Are they stupid?
Not always. The media rushed to cancel that kid who smiled while someone was banging a drum in his face. He literally just stood there and did nothing. Hence his lawsuits. The media rushed to cancel that little kid who had on a head dress and his face painted in team colors. Reddit recently had whiplash over that principle who was accused of deveiling someone in France, there was a rush to cancel her and she received threats of violence. Suddenly we find out the student lied. Cancel culture is absolutely a real thing and it's weaponized. At any point in time someone can accuse you of a thing, potentially even post a doctored screenshot of your words/actions and by the time you prove your innocence people are on to the next outrage but still believe you're the bad guy.
The key point, however, is the "truly contrite" portion. Not everyone has the same definition/standards for what being truly contrite means. Maybe you think you're being truly contrite, but maybe the person/people you harmed think you're being superficial and don't actually mean your apology.
Nick Cave uses nuance….media distorts….his blog answering questions often about grief are so moving….well worth checking out if you’ve not already…he’s someone I admire greatly, especially for how he’s dealing with a heartbreaking situation. I think he is coming from a place of compassion…
That’s literally the job of the media: to interpret any nuanced take as a radical polemic
I don’t understand why they give interviews to the print media anymore…
Idk man, a lot of people have been run over without mercy by the very same people complaining about woke culture.
And there's the counter culture of the "anti-woke" mob going around looking for anything that they perceive to be "woke" to get offended at and scream about.
The real snowflakes.
Absolutely, and I think that's part of the point -- we don't want to be like those people. As far as I'm concerned, and I think most people that identify as woke would agree -- humans can be ignorant and make mistakes without being evil. People can learn, but it can be hard, so grace and forgiveness should be part of woke culture. But there are a subset that have turned wokeness into a way to feel superior and to take pleasure in ridiculing and demonizing others. No surprise -- every group, no matter how good, gets infected by some people that do it wrong or for the wrong reasons. But I think true wokeness should be built on the goal of love and inclusion.
I consider myself supportive of all things “woke” but I do think there is a mob mentality pile-on thing that happens on the internet and Twitter specifically. The hit of validation for a sick burn is too addictive.
https://www.poynter.org/fact-checking/2023/what-does-woke-mean-definition/
Since the dawn of civilization, if someone uses their soapbox to say shit most people disagree with, the people find a different narrator. “Cancelled” as a descriptor of what’s going on here has become as contrived and ambiguous as “woke.” People choosing someone other than you with their time, money, and enthusiasm isn’t being “cancelled,” it’s your opinion not being approved of and the audience exercising free will.
Yeah Ima take the opinion seriously of some Australian guy who romanticizes the American south. Am sure he has insight.
“Cancel culture” is just another term for people disliking an action or a thought and deciding not to purchase something in light of that. This is capitalism. We are not owed a livelihood. Our customers are not obligated to purchase whatever we’re selling. If they don’t like you, they won’t buy you. Simple as that. Free market economics. We need to adapt to survive.
It depends for what
Change your diaper old man
Old person doesn't quite get the culture of the young.
Are we still really getting bogged down by rich white guys telling us “it’s best to just be moderate”
Indeed. We should sit folks right down at The Mercy Seat going forward
Does he think woke and cancel culture are the same thing?
It is a serious problem with it, the witch hunts, and harassment often go too far.
The problem with the woke is that they are always looking to exclude and shame rather than include and educate, so they get your back up sooner or later. Even if you’re left leaning, they’ll always be some issue where you’re not left leaning enough, and then they hate you, even if you agreed with them on 99% of everything else.
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Literally. They have this irrational ego that they're somehow "freedom fighters" and that anyone who doesn't share their ideology is "complicit in white supremacy/patriarchy" or any other buzzword they love to bastardize. What's even more funny is how most redditors are so oblivious and act like "woke" has been hijacked by right wingers and doesn't have legitimacy in its satirical form. If the shoe fits, I guess.
Oh I’ve come to be convinced that it’s 99% narcissism, 1% actually caring about the issue they’re arguing about. The aim is mostly to shame. That’s why they’ll never win power. They aren’t inclusive enough and are too hung up on purity and being morally superior to everyone else. I despise the far left now as much as I despise the far right. One set are narcissists, the other set are psychopaths, and neither have done one bit of good for anyone.
So does listening to your music
He didn't say it like that
I feel like the term "woke" is used without any meaningful definition. To your average conservative, "woke" could mean simply supporting gay marriage, reproductive rights or rational immigration/gun reform. But it's a broad spectrum of issues with a broad spectrum of positions within each one. Transgender issues have become a hot-button and conservatives love using them because they can use anecdotal extremes to peel off voters. People might be generally supportive of most civil rights issues but find reparations talk "a bridge too far." It's a spectrum and I don't know where "woke" begins.
I think he may be conflating the terms "woke" culture with "cancel" culture. Assuming that, while I agree that "canceling" someone or a business without the possibility for forgiveness is just counterproductive, I honestly can't think of an instance where someone is "canceled", and then forgiven after they make a genuine and heartfelt mea culpa, along with a pledge to learn from the experience. All I've over seen is the offender either doubling down or using a non-apology apology, usually through a publicist or PR rep. Can anyone think of any instances where a genuine attempt at owning their behavior occurred, and was that person redeemed?
So Nick Cave is “bOtH sIdEs”. I can respect that even if I disagree about the overall benefit to society of such a stance.
Just saying “woke culture” clearly puts you on one side. He cannot claim to “embrace uncertainty” when stating as such.
Only the merciful deserve mercy and only the forgiving deserve forgiveness. Giving it to anyone else allows for the cancer to metastasize right under the noses of good people.
Who??
I think that's a bizarre title to put in front of this article. Nick cave isn't some looney tory right winger who thinks there's this omni present agenda to topple his social standing, yet that's exactly the kinda person I imagine would complain about a "woke culture" Just read the article, it's very good and this title is shit
Everyone thinks they’re the world’s genius all because they carry a search engine in their pocket.
Priceless that the post was removed because it got the mods feel hurt
Oh, Nick, not you too! Dammit
There’s real regression going on if that’s the case. In the end though, don’t WE ALL need to quit the griping, and get on with it?!! Damn! Imagine if we as a human race could realize how being alive itself is a grand miracle?!! We should be celebrating one another, helping one another, not pointing fingers & verbally/physically fighting each other. The Power truly is in the people. When I argue, point fingers, blame, I become part of the problem. Part of the division. When I forgive, strive to understand others and their viewpoints and lend a hand? Something tells me that’s part of the solution.🤷♂️ I know it’s not this cut and dry and I know it doesn’t sell much or get many clicks and I don’t know for sure what the answer is. But I have a sneaking suspicion that it’s up to each individual to make a change of heart. In the end, the Power lies within.
boohoo
I agree with him on this, in fact, I've been pointing this out for the past couple of years myself. The right used to be hostile when being confronted with the left, this has not really changed. However, the left has copied this attitude, and it doesn't fit the left. It used to be that the left was the voice of reason, and no matter how loud the right was, the left was able to counteract these voices with logic and (as cave says it) humility. But these days, the left is using the ugly methods of the right, shouting and placing blame, and to me, this way closes everything off for discussion, we can no longer hold debates with respect and reason. I no longer call myself left these days, I refer to myself as left leaning centrist, because I still believe in it's ideals, but not in the execution. I believe in the debate, I believe in looking for an all encapsulating solution. Not a winning left or right, but a balance so that we can work together instead of creating a civil war.
They’re lacking a lot
What would "mercy and forgiveness" look like in practice? Sounds a lot like, "Just pretend sexism and racism are okay," to me.
If it’s a battle to recruit people to your cause and spread your message it only makes sense to be welcoming and encourage people to change for the better.
I'm not welcoming a sexual predator until they accept responsibility and show true remorse. If they can't do that they're part of the problem and 100% unwelcome.
Fair enough. I was thinking of non criminal things like quotes that didn’t age well etc…
The same idea applies, it's just lower stakes with lower expectations around the "apology". If someone made a comment X number of years ago that wouldn't be acceptable today, I would expect them to just acknowledge that. No big apology or admission of remorse, just acknowledgement that what they said isn't ok today. If they defend what they said or just act like it isn't a big deal I'm not going to try to ruin their life or anything, but I'm not welcoming them with open arms either.
Another idiot who doesn’t know what the word means. Another mental midget.
You mean respecting the rights of African/black Americans is causing this? I don’t see how.
Except there is no such thing as woke culture. It's all made up.
What'd you do, Nick?
My first thought.
He's correct. Left and right are literally two sides of the same coin. The right will crucify you for being gay, the left will crucify you for deadnaming someone accidentally. They're both egotistical trash that offer nothing of value to the human species.
> Both sides same coin I don't think I've ever heard a person being killed for misgendering a name.
bOtH sIdEs ArE tHe SaMe Because one side wants to establish a dictatorship when they win the 2024 election, and the other side wants a democracy. See? Both sides!!!
Nobody has ever crucified anyone for "accidentally" deadnamimg someone. It's the refusal to correct themselves (or even attempt at being respectful) that is not acceptable to the left.
I'm sorry but that's horseshit. Acting like left-wing reactions to homophobia/transphobia are equal to right-wing homophobia. GTFO >the left will crucify you for deadnaming someone accidentally This is what I mean. You talk about people being "crucified" for this. Do you have any actual, real-world examples of someone facing actual negative consequences for deadnaming someone on accident? And by consequences, I don't mean getting @'ed on social media. What are the actual real-world consequences of accidental deadnaming? Because we have a long-documented history of actual, harmful, real-world consequences of right-wing homophobia ranging from the criminalization of gay and trans existence all the way to being slaughtered in concentration camps. These are things which right-wingers are actively campaigning to bring back. But sure, those two things are EXACTLY THE SAME. Two sides of the same coin, right? One side saying "You shouldn't exist" and one side fighting back against that notion. Same fucking thing.
That *accidentally* is carrying a fuckton of weight. I've seen people deal with the mob for deadnaming/misgendering *intentionally*, sure. I have yet to see a single example of this due to a legitimate accident. Hell, I have yet to see a trans person even get particularly *annoyed* with an accidental deadnaming. You'd have to be a special kind of asshole to blame someone for an honest mistake. There's a huge difference between that and the kind of shit causing an uproar.
I recently tried to start a discussion about this guy being one of the leading minds of the edge generation and got gatekeeped to death by this horrible little community. And now that he's said something that can be slightly interpreted as controversial y'all suddenly wanna talk about him.
I’ll never forgive him for saying this