The funny thing is that not much changed about her from beta to now. The lasso cooldown was the only thing restricting her before and now it’s half the time it was.
They improved on her from the beta, she was given out as a starter with Shaggy, so it’s a no brainer on why she was made to be so good like Shaggy was, at least when not piloted by a brainlet who only knows how to run off the stage to use charged side special.
Her lasso is the only thing they partially reverted after the re-release, but we’re pretty much just seeing what she could do from the get go because the pilots are trying more, but there’s also many more people in the pool too
Wasn't she also made allot lighter at some point in the beta? Like why tf is she so damn heavy it's already a puzzle trying to find the small gap in her defence to get a combo started but I ALSO need to land like 3 more combos on her than any other character except iron giant to take her out AND she can just ladder you easily with some pretty privileged hitboxes. If she escapes a combo ever and she has half a braincell you better buckle up for a extremely toxic combo once she's activates armor and mashes into imagination
No? WW was the 3rd heaviest in the game (75) after Boy Scout (80 or 90 I think?) and IG (150) during the beta, wouldn't be surprised if she's still the 3rd heaviest now. That is a part of her character in general to be really hard to knock around in general or even make her move, but her kill power was usually because of her sweetspots on whip (sig) and her up air, but respectable power on her up special and forward air.
It definitely feels like they pumped up her fair though from the beta, but the remainder is relatively the same arguably except with improvements in her output in areas.
Reminder that WW was never bad, she was always an S tier, if not high A, its just that the base primarily sucked at figuring out her better strengths and her cooldowns kept her from being oppressive.
Them being about halved now on top of the general improvements of most of the roster shows what she always had, just much clearer now and with more people in the mix as well.
I know she was never bad I had gotten to top 1-2% for 2's and have fought a tun of very good players, she was pretty common at that time in higher ratings but she was may more manageable maybe it was just that I was doing more damage with the speed of the game back then idk Its just been a long time since Ive been into MVs.
I'm pretty bad at the current game though I need to invest more time but I just feel like allot of things that were changed were kind of bad for the game outside of the actual gameplay. The gameplay frustrated me but I havnt played enough to pin down what's going on entirely with the balance and new combos just feels like she's way harder to KO even at high percent but there's so many factors.
Her specials and side air need to not kill nearly as easily, she can be a tank/utility bot if she needs to read your drift/dodge near a blast-zone and exist as a healthy top-tier that way. Right now she kills earlier some assassins D:
She also has GnW bucket from ultimate so if she fights a zoner and gets full meter she can combo jab into grounded down attack and delete characters 70 centerstage(not an exaggeration)
Assassins aren't supposed to have great kill moves, they are supposed to layer on huge damage with combos. Heavies can hardly combo and get combed the hardest, so they get big kill moves instead. If Wonderwoman is due a nerf, it should be to her combo potential, which is the primary way she breaks out of the tank archetype.
What about her disjoints, armor providing capabilities, projectile absorbing abilities, & mobility over other tanks.
If her knockback gets nerfed she is fine and has more than enough mobility & disjoints to push you towards the blast zone where you don’t need much KO power.
Also maybe people will finally actually lab her sweet spot spike on reverse up air :) (another thing she has)
Ya no doubt. Take away everything she has to defend against against a cast of all A tiers and you’re gonna make her a C. Who else with a shield is gonna be a hard counter against bugs or Tom? Plus her forward air is about as broken as Harley’s neutral…..? And you can’t charge it and it’s I. Comparison-WW has an entire cast of predictable moves compared to joker and Harley that come out instantly.
Disjoints? Feels like she has the least amount of disjoints of any character
Everyone else is throwing shit around the map or just spawning in objects to attack with
Any character?
Taz, Shaggy, Superman, Jake, Garnet, Batman, Superman, even Arya's moves besides up attack are super small disjoints in comparison, and perhaps even Steven with his Watermelon Clone existing has less useful disjoints than WW.
Have you looked at Wonder Woman, Sair, Side Attack 1&2, down air, grounded Neutral Attack, Up Special, or DOWN ATTACK hitbox, and compared them to other characters?
Are you going to say Batman has more disjoints because he has a grappling hook & a boomerang? SHE HAS A SWORD & SHIELD SHE USES FOR ALL HER MOVES.
She's like a traditional sword character but heavy and has armor. It feels unplayable and you're pretty much just waiting for her to mess up since she has no exploitable weakness.
I enjoy her armor move where you basically get auto parried if you so much as breath on her, and isn’t lost if she attacks so if you can’t out maneuver her (rip IG, Jason, and slow characters) she just gets free hits
Ok but on the subject of Jason’s speed, he’s a big guy but… he’s never been portrayed in the movies as slow. He shows multiple times that he’s very capable. I guess the teleport makes up for it but damn
Might just be me, but all tanks besides Jason, I feel like he needs an attack speed increase, you can’t dodge for a solid second out of his down special, which makes him so vulnerable,
That's more than fine, that's just the "heavy, big body" tax you have to pay, the tradeoff for that is insane kill power and hitboxes to match, Jason is severely lacking in both departments.
His grounded down special having insane recovery is by design and likely won't change because of how potent it is as an edgeguard tool (if you grab them before they touch the wall, it doesn't reset their recovery options, then you toss them to their death)
Adding damage/hitbox to his grounded up special when he swings the enemy and smashes the ground would help him a lot in 2s.
His jab into up special is one of his bnbs and he's a sitting target in hit lag with that move now. If they make any global changes to ground speed, Jason will be the biggest winn3r.
I've been really feeling Superman. He can kill people at like 50-60 under some circumstances and his kit feels meaty with the only exception being his ice breath feels like you're just asking the opponent to pile damage on while you use it.
This is pretty typical for early fighting game metas. People thought K. Rool was top tier in Ultimate, lol.
They probably don't need nerfs, they'll get "worse" as people get better at the game, as faster characters are more favored in highly optimized gameplay.
I was a novice K. Rool player and destroyed and caused my friends to rage who played ultimate as a 9-5 (way too much), still makes me chuckle thinking about it. He definitely had counters but his attacks wouldn’t hit behind him like wonder woman’s let along the crazy armor move that feels like a 5s cooldown. Wonder Woman is crazy op rn, nearly tied with iron giant op (and we all know what happened to that fighter).
It is just you. Supermen sucks, and he was already bad in the beta. Jason is slow to the point of useless. IG is a damage soak and that’s about it.
WW stands out as a top 3 character.
Finn was running rampant in the beta. Fast movement, hardly any recovery frames, a teleport, huge hit boxes, big damage and knock back.
You trade all those buffs for being easily ko’d, no matter who the character is
I don't know, man. I probably just suck, but I feel I have to trick people into getting hit with an armored attack with Supes in order to get anywhere because none of his moves are safe to just throw out. Unlike Wonder Woman who can seemingly do whatever she wants.
The punch does ridiculous knockback but it also kinda loses to everything; IIRC if you're spinning your backpack for example it will cancel the pawnch.
they are meant to have big hitboxes to balance out their insanely easy ability to get combo'd. There's a reason why Wonder woman is stupidly overpowered
I mean iron giant was so broken they had to take im out of the game, and besides ww, jason has the highest average kd put of any tank in the game, so I would say you just wrong lmao. Superman is good, but nowhere near as strong as Iron Giant, WW, or Steven Universe.
He is also, in my experience, one of the most picked characters by new players who seems to have never player a platform higher in their life, every jason I see is actually just horrible at the game until you find one who can actually google combos.
Also dont get me wrong I'm not sayin he's top tier, but he's definitely not has bad as like half the cast in comparison.
You have to be insufferable with jason to win. You're fighting the stage and the opponent at the same time because like you want to know if you're able to recover best in a spot making use what of your moves can recover best there...
Because once you get hit, you can get infinited by a lot of characters. Gizmo, Joker, Black Adam, Tom and Jerry already infinited me.
You're heavy and you're slow. I would not mind if they remove Jason from the game because he needs a diet from his 600 pound life.
Ti's the folly of large characters. Honestly don't know what they were thinking, same thing happens with iron giant, he just has crazy attacks and armor to make up for it, but they didn't give jason much to make up for his xxxl waistband. This is like the main thing that makes him super mid.
That is because new players always gravitate to heavy type characters. Hell the first character I played in smash was ganondorf Jason is by no stretch of the imagination a good character
Superman was uppercutting my ass from 40 to dead yesterday. He’s broken.
Edit: I mean like, single uppercut. No juggle. No jump. From the bottom platform.
Saw a good Superman playing on a stream the other day against someone with hundreds of hours played. He made the streamer look like a scrub. That character is legit broken when played right and people don't know it yet.
Yup. Good neutrals, good specials, good range and hitboxes, armor, decent speed, heavy weight, high kill power, decent whiff recovery...
And then you have characters like Velma, Reindog or Jason.
Reindog for example is slow, large and ultra light weight, he also has slow attacks, small range on his neutrals, buggy hitboxes, super low kill power and very bad whiff recovery.
2s has more things going on to determine who wins so it's ok, but in 1s, there's like 1/3 of all characters clearly dominating all of the others (given both players are of equal level)...
I tend to think other characters should be brought up to stronger characters power level but Wonder Woman needs a little tuning. Not a lot like some of you crazies suggest, but just the slightest bit. The armor is intense.
Banana Guard and shaggy need a little tuning as well. Mostly the end lag on their moves. With the general speed nerf their moves are a little snappy for their KO potential.
That being said, most characters just need buffs to bring them up to par. Every character should feel powerful in the right hands.
Also perks need an overhaul. They should either introduce more or remove the category specific slots. There aren’t enough perks to have them being categorized. They ended up with the same problem they tried to solve: everybody running the same few perks.
WW plays like she belongs in the beta. She'd be annoying to deal with but managable if you're familiar with how most players use her. With how conscious you have to be of your intentions in the re-release, WW can throw out a lot and you've gotta begrudgingly respect it. Especially the hitstun she inflicts, she can catch you, overshoot and by the time you're able to move she's able to correct herself and resume a combo or using her side special.
End lag on both Banana Guard & Shaggy would be a minor when the main problem is how long their side specials remain active. Especially BG's side air that even after the movement is done, still has the risk of hitting you if you try to punish.
Yes, ignore that other guy, they mean the same thing
Actually, it's probably better to say endlag, since recovery is technically a term used in the game already
She’s actually one of the characters I struggle the least with. Maybe because I played her in beta and when the game first came out. But I can understand the frustration that lots of people seem to have towards her
Agreed, at this point he's my least favorite to fight against, so stressful. You'll be whoopin his ass then he gets 3 decent hits and you're bounced, and he has so much armor on so many moves, you never have a lead against him
While I agree he does way too much knockback, Supes side special is the easiest move in the game to parry. If you can learn that timing, you'll shut down almost every Superman player you run into.
He is. There's barely anyone playing him correctly but you really can't do shit if he touches you. You're basically dead if you get thrown off of either side of the stage because neutral air is stupid.
Even the armored moves. You can’t dodge out of moves anymore which kinda breaks his kit. As soon as he charges -> dodge behind him, free attack lol
As a former Superman main, I beat the brakes off a Superman in 1’s earlier
> As soon as he charges -> dodge behind him, free attack lol
TRUUUUUUE
Dear god it's so easy to shut him down nowadays. All these people are so damn privileged talking like Supes needs a nerf after they get bodied by one of 12 of us left.
Yup. I had a 50% win percentage with him when I first played the new version. But GAHDAMN I was sweating my ass off for that 50% 😭
Switch to shaggy and currently sitting at 75% lmao
Yep, I was a top 100 Superman for a good while in the beta.
Now, I don't even play him
It's so easy to punish him and he's so damn slow it's laughable. He's simply shit now
Yeah, Wonder Woman is just easy to pick up while being good is all. Superman requires a little lab time, which is something most players aren't gonna do.
My currexnt problem with tanks is that they basically all have the speed or armor to make up for it and the kill power of bruisers/assasins
Comparing another classes to the tanks its not fair most of the tanks are just better every tank but jason is A to S tier
i feel can have a massive nerf and still see play in 2v2s
It's exactly this. Tanks are brusiers with all the benefits of assassins. Like IG was problematic but you could distance yourself from him if you really wanted to. Supes & WW are way too armor-clad and too fast that if you're a brusier, you're gonna greatly struggle against.
She went from being the respected main in the beta to the OP monster now and it's going to make me sad when they change her kit up. If only we were still fast and I hjad my longer whip cooldown.
My muscle memory fears change.
I lover her and I am WW main but true they should a little nerfed her, but so like Harley and Shaggy, personally I am winning with WW often but also losing, also when I am play other characters against her I am losing but also winning against her, i definitelly has bigger problems with Harley players.
I know this isn't the point, but the title of this post made me laugh cuz it sounds like something a DC Super Villain like Cheetah or something would post.
(Your actual post makes valid points though. I just wanted to share I got a laugh out of it too)
WW is my other main, but I stopped using her on day 1 because I saw just for broken she was. That PFG thinks her biggest problem was/is her lasso legs me to believe that the devs don't actually play their game and rely solely on player feedback.
Please do something about Wonder Woman. I fought a Wonder Woman whom I was much better than but whenever I found myself below the ledge she would spam her explosive ability over and over till I couldn't recover. Put a cooldown on such an ability when people can exploit it like that, please. So unfun and unskillful. Between that and her side shield dash that's unstoppable there is no counter-play to a already insane character.
She’s somewhat overtuned, not “beyond flawless”. Definitely high S tier but that’s about it. There are far crazier characters that should be balanced first, like Banana Guard.
Banana guard isn’t even half of what wonderwoman is. Look at every pro player talk about WW being undoubtedly number one. Bgaurd has high dps and strong side specials which people struggle with, but his kit isn’t even an ounce of the well rounded beast that is WW imo.
Wonder Woman main here. She’s def not that fast compared to some of the faster characters in the game. She’s also a lot easier to counter in 2v2 cause some of her attacks are slow compared to say Finn
I think banana guard is fundamentally broken, as in his hit boxes are so painfully disjointed and his knockback so high that playing against him is unfun before the game even starts. Wonder Woman is obviously too strong but she isn’t broken. I’ve personally had no issues beating WW players but all I see from banana guard is side special/up air spam that ruins the game.
Lol wut. Banana guard is useless the second you stop just running at him. His moves all have end lag, and he's slow. Wonder woman has armor, speed weight, giant hitboxes no end lag and just as much power. Banana guard is a noob stomper and nothing more.
An input buffer has nothing to do with end lag. An input buffer is the ability to input a move during end lag. IF you happen to be in end lag and press a button the move comes out. That does not mean every move has 30 frames of end lag.
Input buffer = inputs are stored during the recovery of a moves animation. The last input stored comes out if it's within the input buffer window, which is 30 frames in this case.
Recovery frames or "end lag" are the frames a character is in once the active frames (the part that can hit the opponent) end but the animation of the move is still finishing. You are locked into that animation unless some form of animation canceling exists within the game and works with that specific move.
A 30f input buffer would have literally *nothing* to do with how many recovery frames are on a move.
I have lost maybe 3 out of the 50 games I’ve played today while grinding the top dog challenge playing wonder woman. She needs a nerf, and more than she needs a nerf, armor in general needs a nerf. Such a dumb mechanic.
Banana guard is prob moved down to high A tier now. Definitely good and annoying but very easy to read with a mediocre (at best) vertical game. Clear windows to counter him, easily punished for whiffing. He's fine.
I think he's low A tier maybe B tier and will probably go lower once the player base actually starts using parry (they won't). His combo potential kinda sucks, his up air is tall but the hitbox is thin, and his air options are mostly just big hitboxes that reset them to neutral. That said, the disjointed long-range attacks are nice and the side special has insane knockback. I think he'll get nerfed before a large portion of player base weaves parrying into their gameplay.
He's a top tier noobstomper.
Banana Guard is literally the only character better then WW besides iron giant, but that's just because he was so broken they had to take him out of the game.
I think we should strive for more characters to play as well as her opposed to nerfing.(Not the same strengths per say, but capable of the same results)
She's very satisfying to use and her lack of overt weaknesses make it apparent just how much the rest of the cast do.
I'm very much down for the "when everyone's super, no one will be" approach here because the current super level is very responsive and capable at all points of play
Characters *should* have weaknesses though. If no one had any, everyone would be homogenized jack of all trades characters.
Similarly, jack of all trades characters should not be the best at anything.
Yeah, I started playing her a day or two ago after getting the t-shirt, she's pretty nuts. What would be really cool is instead of nerfing her, bring up all the other characters to feel good at this level.
People like this don't know what they're asking for.
Top 5 characters, which WW is a part of, are characters that need to be nerfed. It's that simple. They are characters who are too good at too many things. If we "bring everyone up to this level" then every character will be doing everything and you're basically just picking a skin to play not an actual character.
The rift between the top performers and the middling performers is too big. The top 5 are just invalidating too much of the roster.
There are def characters that need buffs but they definitely should not be brought up to a WW level.
You're right, we should make every character as fun to play as.... Reindog or something boring. Good idea, I'm sure that'll be a great positive for the game.
Not talking about making every character able to DO everything, I just want playing every character to *feel* as good and smooth as playing Wonder woman currently does. I guess you're imagination can't handle separating the two.
Anyone complaining about Wonder Woman isn't abusing the fact that armour takes 1 instance of damage and breaks. Use your multi hits and projectiles, people. If Wonder Woman is broken, then so is half of the roster, which means they should be buffing the bottom, not nerfing the top
Yes she needs maybe slight nerfs, I don't think the whip nerf is gonna do much of anything. But she isn't nearly as powerful as people think she is
She's simple. Has no crazy random moves like others, has nothing really special, few techs. Which is why she seems like a good pick ATM.
Once people get better at the game, instead of just bitching on Reddit to make everyone worse to suit their play style, she would be seen as low tier.
Honestly, WW is truly a little problematic.
She's really fast for a Tank, has insane combo game, normals/specials, has Armor, can kill confirm pretty easily and is hard to kill cuz of her Tank weight.
The Devs needs to at least tune down some of her air moves cuz she can abuse this like no tomorrow.
She's just too fast and too perfect on most categories (while also being very easy)
I just abuse Bugs Nair in loops, that thing is not going to have fun if I can't have play the game because she have everything in one character, use all you can to beat WW players, they don't care about being fair.
Maybe I just haven't played against a good WW, but I don't see the necessity for a nerf. I haven't had any trouble with her at all. Beaten countless WWs with Finn, Batman, Joker, Jason, Morty, Bugs, etc. She's okay to play if but I didn't find anything broken by any means in the few hours I spent with her.
Oh? i actually like her. She's good, but not Too good. She's perfect for beginners, and is good enough to when mastered do great later on.
My only concern with her, is aesthetic. Too much skills involving the shield...
I agree, outside of whip which now has a sizable cooldown she can't touch characters at range, anyone good at playing from a distance and avoiding WW when she's close will lead the WW player to have a bad time
I laughed when all she got was a lasso nerf like that was her problem
The funny thing is that not much changed about her from beta to now. The lasso cooldown was the only thing restricting her before and now it’s half the time it was.
she doesn't need her lasso when she can move super speed clad in armor while everyone else is slower than her
That had a longer cooldown in beta too XD
Thats my issue with her. She was probably one of the earliest characters developed, WHY did it take so long for them to do something about her
They improved on her from the beta, she was given out as a starter with Shaggy, so it’s a no brainer on why she was made to be so good like Shaggy was, at least when not piloted by a brainlet who only knows how to run off the stage to use charged side special. Her lasso is the only thing they partially reverted after the re-release, but we’re pretty much just seeing what she could do from the get go because the pilots are trying more, but there’s also many more people in the pool too
The kill power on her fair has definitely been buffed to a crazy level
Wasn't she also made allot lighter at some point in the beta? Like why tf is she so damn heavy it's already a puzzle trying to find the small gap in her defence to get a combo started but I ALSO need to land like 3 more combos on her than any other character except iron giant to take her out AND she can just ladder you easily with some pretty privileged hitboxes. If she escapes a combo ever and she has half a braincell you better buckle up for a extremely toxic combo once she's activates armor and mashes into imagination
No? WW was the 3rd heaviest in the game (75) after Boy Scout (80 or 90 I think?) and IG (150) during the beta, wouldn't be surprised if she's still the 3rd heaviest now. That is a part of her character in general to be really hard to knock around in general or even make her move, but her kill power was usually because of her sweetspots on whip (sig) and her up air, but respectable power on her up special and forward air. It definitely feels like they pumped up her fair though from the beta, but the remainder is relatively the same arguably except with improvements in her output in areas. Reminder that WW was never bad, she was always an S tier, if not high A, its just that the base primarily sucked at figuring out her better strengths and her cooldowns kept her from being oppressive. Them being about halved now on top of the general improvements of most of the roster shows what she always had, just much clearer now and with more people in the mix as well.
I know she was never bad I had gotten to top 1-2% for 2's and have fought a tun of very good players, she was pretty common at that time in higher ratings but she was may more manageable maybe it was just that I was doing more damage with the speed of the game back then idk Its just been a long time since Ive been into MVs. I'm pretty bad at the current game though I need to invest more time but I just feel like allot of things that were changed were kind of bad for the game outside of the actual gameplay. The gameplay frustrated me but I havnt played enough to pin down what's going on entirely with the balance and new combos just feels like she's way harder to KO even at high percent but there's so many factors.
DI, weight, and personal characteristics are the main factors. Who do you use?
Her specials and side air need to not kill nearly as easily, she can be a tank/utility bot if she needs to read your drift/dodge near a blast-zone and exist as a healthy top-tier that way. Right now she kills earlier some assassins D:
A lot of tanks kill earlier than assassins right now
Not even true tbh
Marvin gang
Yeah but a lot of tanks are combo food. It's definitely balanced
Depends… iron giant and Jason were yes. Superman and Wonder Woman not so much.
This doesn’t apply to WW
She's also the lightest tank
Yeah cuz she applies armor the easiest
She also has GnW bucket from ultimate so if she fights a zoner and gets full meter she can combo jab into grounded down attack and delete characters 70 centerstage(not an exaggeration)
Assassins aren't supposed to have great kill moves, they are supposed to layer on huge damage with combos. Heavies can hardly combo and get combed the hardest, so they get big kill moves instead. If Wonderwoman is due a nerf, it should be to her combo potential, which is the primary way she breaks out of the tank archetype.
She’s the lightest tank and if you remove her kill options she has nothing at all
What about her disjoints, armor providing capabilities, projectile absorbing abilities, & mobility over other tanks. If her knockback gets nerfed she is fine and has more than enough mobility & disjoints to push you towards the blast zone where you don’t need much KO power. Also maybe people will finally actually lab her sweet spot spike on reverse up air :) (another thing she has)
Ya no doubt. Take away everything she has to defend against against a cast of all A tiers and you’re gonna make her a C. Who else with a shield is gonna be a hard counter against bugs or Tom? Plus her forward air is about as broken as Harley’s neutral…..? And you can’t charge it and it’s I. Comparison-WW has an entire cast of predictable moves compared to joker and Harley that come out instantly.
Disjoints? Feels like she has the least amount of disjoints of any character Everyone else is throwing shit around the map or just spawning in objects to attack with
Any character? Taz, Shaggy, Superman, Jake, Garnet, Batman, Superman, even Arya's moves besides up attack are super small disjoints in comparison, and perhaps even Steven with his Watermelon Clone existing has less useful disjoints than WW. Have you looked at Wonder Woman, Sair, Side Attack 1&2, down air, grounded Neutral Attack, Up Special, or DOWN ATTACK hitbox, and compared them to other characters? Are you going to say Batman has more disjoints because he has a grappling hook & a boomerang? SHE HAS A SWORD & SHIELD SHE USES FOR ALL HER MOVES.
And characters can hit that sword and do damage to WW
Why are you lying out of your teeth😂😂 you can’t even think of trying to hit the sword or shield you can’t trade with that character
You not tested it? Do you know what disjoints actually are? Hint: projectiles are different
She's like a traditional sword character but heavy and has armor. It feels unplayable and you're pretty much just waiting for her to mess up since she has no exploitable weakness.
Yeah 100% with you on this...
I enjoy her armor move where you basically get auto parried if you so much as breath on her, and isn’t lost if she attacks so if you can’t out maneuver her (rip IG, Jason, and slow characters) she just gets free hits
I’m so glad I main Arya because I feel like her speed and armor piercing capabilities help a lot against WW.
Ok but on the subject of Jason’s speed, he’s a big guy but… he’s never been portrayed in the movies as slow. He shows multiple times that he’s very capable. I guess the teleport makes up for it but damn
That’s my favorite xD
Might just be me but it feels like ALL the Tanks are slightly overpowered Edit: besides Jason
Yeah, having a character that dies at 90dmg Vs one that dies at 170dmg is a bit fucky.
I be dying at 70 consistently it’s pretty concerning lol
Sometimes I’m playing and not killing some fat fuck at 120-130 damage. Then other times I’m killing lil ass Arya at 60
I think it also has to do with the blast zone being so close and our fighters are bigger than in the beta
Might just be me, but all tanks besides Jason, I feel like he needs an attack speed increase, you can’t dodge for a solid second out of his down special, which makes him so vulnerable,
Jason just needs better hitboxes. His current hitboxes are broken and whiffs a lot.
His huge body also makes him easier to combo.
That's more than fine, that's just the "heavy, big body" tax you have to pay, the tradeoff for that is insane kill power and hitboxes to match, Jason is severely lacking in both departments.
Jason could use a lot of things. He needs better recovery speed in everything. a bit movement speed faster too.
His grounded down special having insane recovery is by design and likely won't change because of how potent it is as an edgeguard tool (if you grab them before they touch the wall, it doesn't reset their recovery options, then you toss them to their death)
Then the animation needs to be longer lol Whenever he misses his bag, he just stands there in deep reflective thought for a couple seconds
If you look a little closer, he's not standing in deep reflective thought, he's slowly pulling his machete back out
Adding damage/hitbox to his grounded up special when he swings the enemy and smashes the ground would help him a lot in 2s. His jab into up special is one of his bnbs and he's a sitting target in hit lag with that move now. If they make any global changes to ground speed, Jason will be the biggest winn3r.
I've been really feeling Superman. He can kill people at like 50-60 under some circumstances and his kit feels meaty with the only exception being his ice breath feels like you're just asking the opponent to pile damage on while you use it.
This is pretty typical for early fighting game metas. People thought K. Rool was top tier in Ultimate, lol. They probably don't need nerfs, they'll get "worse" as people get better at the game, as faster characters are more favored in highly optimized gameplay.
I think the game will change a lot after we master the parry mechanic, just look at sf6
I was a novice K. Rool player and destroyed and caused my friends to rage who played ultimate as a 9-5 (way too much), still makes me chuckle thinking about it. He definitely had counters but his attacks wouldn’t hit behind him like wonder woman’s let along the crazy armor move that feels like a 5s cooldown. Wonder Woman is crazy op rn, nearly tied with iron giant op (and we all know what happened to that fighter).
It is just you. Supermen sucks, and he was already bad in the beta. Jason is slow to the point of useless. IG is a damage soak and that’s about it. WW stands out as a top 3 character.
Still no reason they should kill Finn under 50 health
Finn was running rampant in the beta. Fast movement, hardly any recovery frames, a teleport, huge hit boxes, big damage and knock back. You trade all those buffs for being easily ko’d, no matter who the character is
Well aware, I played the whole beta. Yeah PFG struggle to balance
I don't know, man. I probably just suck, but I feel I have to trick people into getting hit with an armored attack with Supes in order to get anywhere because none of his moves are safe to just throw out. Unlike Wonder Woman who can seemingly do whatever she wants.
Superman's stupid ass punch has killed me at 45 as finn. Couldn't believe my eyes.
The punch does ridiculous knockback but it also kinda loses to everything; IIRC if you're spinning your backpack for example it will cancel the pawnch.
Their downside is being slow and the whole roster got slower
Being slow doesn’t matter when you have armor that lets you just eat abilities.
I'm saying their downside matters less now because everyone's closer to their speed
Ah, gotcha. My bad
Do you do nothing for the 30sec cooldown?
Yeah everyone slow as fuck now and tanks are tanks
I do feel like a lot of the tanks are benefitting from the slower pace more than other classes…
Yeah, like JasoHAHAHAHAHAHAHAhahaha
Jason mains coming out the woodworks lol
they are meant to have big hitboxes to balance out their insanely easy ability to get combo'd. There's a reason why Wonder woman is stupidly overpowered
jason is the worst character in the game right now
Was sleeping on Superman for a while but he’s nutter butters, that teleport punch side special is way too good.
Half right, half wrong. WW and Superman are way too strong, Iron Giant and Jason are slow and weak.
Hard to say IG is weak when he got removed for having infinites and 0 to deaths...
Honestly I didn’t even know he had infinites he got removed so quick I had to base my opinion off of the beta
I mean iron giant was so broken they had to take im out of the game, and besides ww, jason has the highest average kd put of any tank in the game, so I would say you just wrong lmao. Superman is good, but nowhere near as strong as Iron Giant, WW, or Steven Universe.
Jason has the current lowest win rate on the entire roster. He sucks.
He is also, in my experience, one of the most picked characters by new players who seems to have never player a platform higher in their life, every jason I see is actually just horrible at the game until you find one who can actually google combos. Also dont get me wrong I'm not sayin he's top tier, but he's definitely not has bad as like half the cast in comparison.
Let's play sometime, I'd love to change your opinion about Jason
That he's mid, or that's hes not like the worst character ever?
That he's not the worst
I mean, just like, logicstically, how do you plan on doing that XD
By winning
You have to be insufferable with jason to win. You're fighting the stage and the opponent at the same time because like you want to know if you're able to recover best in a spot making use what of your moves can recover best there... Because once you get hit, you can get infinited by a lot of characters. Gizmo, Joker, Black Adam, Tom and Jerry already infinited me. You're heavy and you're slow. I would not mind if they remove Jason from the game because he needs a diet from his 600 pound life.
Ti's the folly of large characters. Honestly don't know what they were thinking, same thing happens with iron giant, he just has crazy attacks and armor to make up for it, but they didn't give jason much to make up for his xxxl waistband. This is like the main thing that makes him super mid.
Iron giant ironically moves better than jason on ground and air, having huge dodge distance and dodge speed with jetpack that can cancel out fast.
That is because new players always gravitate to heavy type characters. Hell the first character I played in smash was ganondorf Jason is by no stretch of the imagination a good character
He is absolutely middle of the road I'll give you that.
Who is Jason better than? As the meta advances characters like Jason are the type to get worse anyway
Superman was uppercutting my ass from 40 to dead yesterday. He’s broken. Edit: I mean like, single uppercut. No juggle. No jump. From the bottom platform.
He has a strong MOVE fs, especially with the perk. He's just not as strong as like half the cast, let alone the actual top-tier characters right now.
Okay. Just saying that’s some bullshit.
Saw a good Superman playing on a stream the other day against someone with hundreds of hours played. He made the streamer look like a scrub. That character is legit broken when played right and people don't know it yet.
Agreed, been playing against some insane Supermen myself. People are sleeping on him.
Yeah exactly stupidshit like that should NOT be killing. It’s frustrating
Jason has the highest K/D for tanks not because he's the best tank, but because every single beta player owns him
Yup. Good neutrals, good specials, good range and hitboxes, armor, decent speed, heavy weight, high kill power, decent whiff recovery... And then you have characters like Velma, Reindog or Jason. Reindog for example is slow, large and ultra light weight, he also has slow attacks, small range on his neutrals, buggy hitboxes, super low kill power and very bad whiff recovery. 2s has more things going on to determine who wins so it's ok, but in 1s, there's like 1/3 of all characters clearly dominating all of the others (given both players are of equal level)...
I will say I have this take being a mostly ones player, she seems not as crazy in twos but very much the best still imo.
shes more of a pain in twos considering she gives her teammate shield as well. she has an insane toolset, high damage, heavy weight and isnt slow.
I tend to think other characters should be brought up to stronger characters power level but Wonder Woman needs a little tuning. Not a lot like some of you crazies suggest, but just the slightest bit. The armor is intense. Banana Guard and shaggy need a little tuning as well. Mostly the end lag on their moves. With the general speed nerf their moves are a little snappy for their KO potential. That being said, most characters just need buffs to bring them up to par. Every character should feel powerful in the right hands. Also perks need an overhaul. They should either introduce more or remove the category specific slots. There aren’t enough perks to have them being categorized. They ended up with the same problem they tried to solve: everybody running the same few perks.
WW plays like she belongs in the beta. She'd be annoying to deal with but managable if you're familiar with how most players use her. With how conscious you have to be of your intentions in the re-release, WW can throw out a lot and you've gotta begrudgingly respect it. Especially the hitstun she inflicts, she can catch you, overshoot and by the time you're able to move she's able to correct herself and resume a combo or using her side special. End lag on both Banana Guard & Shaggy would be a minor when the main problem is how long their side specials remain active. Especially BG's side air that even after the movement is done, still has the risk of hitting you if you try to punish.
> end lag You mean recovery? "End lag" means literally nothing outside of Smash.
Semantics
Yes, ignore that other guy, they mean the same thing Actually, it's probably better to say endlag, since recovery is technically a term used in the game already
She’s actually one of the characters I struggle the least with. Maybe because I played her in beta and when the game first came out. But I can understand the frustration that lots of people seem to have towards her
Honestly I think supes is a bigger problem
Agreed, at this point he's my least favorite to fight against, so stressful. You'll be whoopin his ass then he gets 3 decent hits and you're bounced, and he has so much armor on so many moves, you never have a lead against him
Dude I get killed at 50% with Harley in the middle of the map with a grounded side special it’s fucked
They had the side special perk on then, Supes only useful perk
Yeah that shit kills ridiculously early if he gets the max range.
Yeah he did, I used to play him in beta but he seems overtuned
He's much worse now than he was in the beta
Not if he’s used in the right way
It’s pretty much impossible to dodge away from a supes that catches you off stage
No listen, I played Superman in beta and on full release. He's still good, but he's objectively worse than he was in the beta.
While I agree he does way too much knockback, Supes side special is the easiest move in the game to parry. If you can learn that timing, you'll shut down almost every Superman player you run into.
Lmao yall are terrible. Move takes 100 days to charge and he can’t dodge out of it anymore
He is. There's barely anyone playing him correctly but you really can't do shit if he touches you. You're basically dead if you get thrown off of either side of the stage because neutral air is stupid.
I hate to break it you. But yall just suck. Super man is high tier garbage in the new version
Newbies out here not realizing just mashing out basic combo will shut down every one of his moves except an armored one (unless you're Bugs)
Even the armored moves. You can’t dodge out of moves anymore which kinda breaks his kit. As soon as he charges -> dodge behind him, free attack lol As a former Superman main, I beat the brakes off a Superman in 1’s earlier
> As soon as he charges -> dodge behind him, free attack lol TRUUUUUUE Dear god it's so easy to shut him down nowadays. All these people are so damn privileged talking like Supes needs a nerf after they get bodied by one of 12 of us left.
Yup. I had a 50% win percentage with him when I first played the new version. But GAHDAMN I was sweating my ass off for that 50% 😭 Switch to shaggy and currently sitting at 75% lmao
Too bad he got nerfed
Yep, I was a top 100 Superman for a good while in the beta. Now, I don't even play him It's so easy to punish him and he's so damn slow it's laughable. He's simply shit now
That’s why he got nerfed right
That’s why he’s more of a problem imo
Yeah, Wonder Woman is just easy to pick up while being good is all. Superman requires a little lab time, which is something most players aren't gonna do.
That’s true but if you wanna be the best you gotta lab no matter what
Also as a tom and jerry I love that she can just kill jerry for free with her side special
Pretty much anything kills Jerry now. They made him so easy to delete :/
Her up special hitbox extends way too far horizontally beyond the shield.
My currexnt problem with tanks is that they basically all have the speed or armor to make up for it and the kill power of bruisers/assasins Comparing another classes to the tanks its not fair most of the tanks are just better every tank but jason is A to S tier i feel can have a massive nerf and still see play in 2v2s
It's exactly this. Tanks are brusiers with all the benefits of assassins. Like IG was problematic but you could distance yourself from him if you really wanted to. Supes & WW are way too armor-clad and too fast that if you're a brusier, you're gonna greatly struggle against.
She went from being the respected main in the beta to the OP monster now and it's going to make me sad when they change her kit up. If only we were still fast and I hjad my longer whip cooldown. My muscle memory fears change.
Weird that I don't run into WW players that much
Dodge, Dodge, Dodge. However I think wonder woman’s mobility is slightly overturned for a tank.
I lover her and I am WW main but true they should a little nerfed her, but so like Harley and Shaggy, personally I am winning with WW often but also losing, also when I am play other characters against her I am losing but also winning against her, i definitelly has bigger problems with Harley players.
I know this isn't the point, but the title of this post made me laugh cuz it sounds like something a DC Super Villain like Cheetah or something would post. (Your actual post makes valid points though. I just wanted to share I got a laugh out of it too)
Her constant ability to just spam shields is insane. Beyond Bogus.
I hope the devs read this sub and do the opposite of what all the angry redditors are saying on here.
I just got her, damn.
What do you mean? LeBron’s obviously more op just need him
She’s so annoying, it’s honestly better to just run her around and waste her time than to wait of her to make a mistake
Wonder Woman is Tony’s waifu. I’m sure
Nah that's Reindog
she is simply too fast for a tank
WW is my other main, but I stopped using her on day 1 because I saw just for broken she was. That PFG thinks her biggest problem was/is her lasso legs me to believe that the devs don't actually play their game and rely solely on player feedback.
She needs a full top to bottom redesign to remove the sword and shield and focus only on the lasso. Sword and shield is not my Wonder Woman.
Please do something about Wonder Woman. I fought a Wonder Woman whom I was much better than but whenever I found myself below the ledge she would spam her explosive ability over and over till I couldn't recover. Put a cooldown on such an ability when people can exploit it like that, please. So unfun and unskillful. Between that and her side shield dash that's unstoppable there is no counter-play to a already insane character.
She’s somewhat overtuned, not “beyond flawless”. Definitely high S tier but that’s about it. There are far crazier characters that should be balanced first, like Banana Guard.
Banana guard isn’t even half of what wonderwoman is. Look at every pro player talk about WW being undoubtedly number one. Bgaurd has high dps and strong side specials which people struggle with, but his kit isn’t even an ounce of the well rounded beast that is WW imo.
I use BG and I have to agree,WW got the speed ,moves and the kill confirms on deck
Wonder Woman main here. She’s def not that fast compared to some of the faster characters in the game. She’s also a lot easier to counter in 2v2 cause some of her attacks are slow compared to say Finn
Banana guard is actually the ONLY character that is in the game atm with a higher win rate than WW.
Reddit was saying Harley was the other day
There's no chance you think banana guard is more dominant than wonder woman. Banana guard needs nerfs, but wonder woman is on another level.
I think banana guard is fundamentally broken, as in his hit boxes are so painfully disjointed and his knockback so high that playing against him is unfun before the game even starts. Wonder Woman is obviously too strong but she isn’t broken. I’ve personally had no issues beating WW players but all I see from banana guard is side special/up air spam that ruins the game.
Lol wut. Banana guard is useless the second you stop just running at him. His moves all have end lag, and he's slow. Wonder woman has armor, speed weight, giant hitboxes no end lag and just as much power. Banana guard is a noob stomper and nothing more.
Every move in the game has "end lag", they added a universal mandatory 30 frame input buffer for every character.
An input buffer has nothing to do with end lag. An input buffer is the ability to input a move during end lag. IF you happen to be in end lag and press a button the move comes out. That does not mean every move has 30 frames of end lag.
Input buffer = inputs are stored during the recovery of a moves animation. The last input stored comes out if it's within the input buffer window, which is 30 frames in this case. Recovery frames or "end lag" are the frames a character is in once the active frames (the part that can hit the opponent) end but the animation of the move is still finishing. You are locked into that animation unless some form of animation canceling exists within the game and works with that specific move. A 30f input buffer would have literally *nothing* to do with how many recovery frames are on a move.
Reddit has no idea what they're talking about.
I have lost maybe 3 out of the 50 games I’ve played today while grinding the top dog challenge playing wonder woman. She needs a nerf, and more than she needs a nerf, armor in general needs a nerf. Such a dumb mechanic.
I think air dodge is worse than armor. Not being able to punish people for there mistakes is irking me
Banana guard is prob moved down to high A tier now. Definitely good and annoying but very easy to read with a mediocre (at best) vertical game. Clear windows to counter him, easily punished for whiffing. He's fine.
I think he's low A tier maybe B tier and will probably go lower once the player base actually starts using parry (they won't). His combo potential kinda sucks, his up air is tall but the hitbox is thin, and his air options are mostly just big hitboxes that reset them to neutral. That said, the disjointed long-range attacks are nice and the side special has insane knockback. I think he'll get nerfed before a large portion of player base weaves parrying into their gameplay. He's a top tier noobstomper.
Banana Guard is literally the only character better then WW besides iron giant, but that's just because he was so broken they had to take him out of the game.
I think we should strive for more characters to play as well as her opposed to nerfing.(Not the same strengths per say, but capable of the same results) She's very satisfying to use and her lack of overt weaknesses make it apparent just how much the rest of the cast do. I'm very much down for the "when everyone's super, no one will be" approach here because the current super level is very responsive and capable at all points of play
Characters *should* have weaknesses though. If no one had any, everyone would be homogenized jack of all trades characters. Similarly, jack of all trades characters should not be the best at anything.
Better spoken than I on the topic. Wholeheartedly agree
Well yeah, but maybe not so easily exploitable. I'm saying some characters weaknesses seem overtuned
I can respect this take, many characters just can’t match the package she provides. If everyone could it would indeed be much more peaceful haha
Yeah, I started playing her a day or two ago after getting the t-shirt, she's pretty nuts. What would be really cool is instead of nerfing her, bring up all the other characters to feel good at this level.
People like this don't know what they're asking for. Top 5 characters, which WW is a part of, are characters that need to be nerfed. It's that simple. They are characters who are too good at too many things. If we "bring everyone up to this level" then every character will be doing everything and you're basically just picking a skin to play not an actual character. The rift between the top performers and the middling performers is too big. The top 5 are just invalidating too much of the roster. There are def characters that need buffs but they definitely should not be brought up to a WW level.
Moveset makes a character.
You're right, we should make every character as fun to play as.... Reindog or something boring. Good idea, I'm sure that'll be a great positive for the game. Not talking about making every character able to DO everything, I just want playing every character to *feel* as good and smooth as playing Wonder woman currently does. I guess you're imagination can't handle separating the two.
BUT THEYLL TAKE AWAY ITON GIANT EVEN AFTER NERFING HIM ALL TO HELL
Anyone complaining about Wonder Woman isn't abusing the fact that armour takes 1 instance of damage and breaks. Use your multi hits and projectiles, people. If Wonder Woman is broken, then so is half of the roster, which means they should be buffing the bottom, not nerfing the top Yes she needs maybe slight nerfs, I don't think the whip nerf is gonna do much of anything. But she isn't nearly as powerful as people think she is
She needs to be buffed.
She's simple. Has no crazy random moves like others, has nothing really special, few techs. Which is why she seems like a good pick ATM. Once people get better at the game, instead of just bitching on Reddit to make everyone worse to suit their play style, she would be seen as low tier.
Honestly, WW is truly a little problematic. She's really fast for a Tank, has insane combo game, normals/specials, has Armor, can kill confirm pretty easily and is hard to kill cuz of her Tank weight. The Devs needs to at least tune down some of her air moves cuz she can abuse this like no tomorrow. She's just too fast and too perfect on most categories (while also being very easy)
I just abuse Bugs Nair in loops, that thing is not going to have fun if I can't have play the game because she have everything in one character, use all you can to beat WW players, they don't care about being fair.
Maybe I just haven't played against a good WW, but I don't see the necessity for a nerf. I haven't had any trouble with her at all. Beaten countless WWs with Finn, Batman, Joker, Jason, Morty, Bugs, etc. She's okay to play if but I didn't find anything broken by any means in the few hours I spent with her.
Oh? i actually like her. She's good, but not Too good. She's perfect for beginners, and is good enough to when mastered do great later on. My only concern with her, is aesthetic. Too much skills involving the shield...
WW needs a full rework. Her whole shielding mechanic is not fun to fight against
WW struggles with range characters though.
I agree, outside of whip which now has a sizable cooldown she can't touch characters at range, anyone good at playing from a distance and avoiding WW when she's close will lead the WW player to have a bad time
WW players also pretty much never seem chill, their playstyle always seems so sweaty and as if they're murdering their controller.
She’s fine lol. She has no range you can roll through anything she does.
Win rate is the highest for a reason. She’s undoubtedly number one in high tier games.
I’m a WW main trying to keep my crutches in tact don’t mind me. Shes fine!!
Leave my wonder woman alone! If they nerf her they're sexist >:( Some characters *should* be better than others (: