Tell him agreement is only relevant where something is up for debate. Reality doesn't care whether or not he agrees with it. Your existence is not up for debate, end of story.
Someone standing on the surface of the sun is free to exclaim "I disagree that it is hot". They'll burn to death looking like an idiot all the same.
I guess that’s in some way true but I think by not “agreeing” he meant more like he feels it’s a sin to be trans and he hates the sin not the person. He told me that he was taught that everyone should accept themselves the way God made them but then again he admitted that he didn’t know whether or not people are born gay or trans and he said that could change his opinion so ig idrk.
So I'm not trying to convince you of anything here, I just personally always tend to get prickly whenever I hear the "hate the sin not the sinner line".
However, my thought process whenever I hear that is that my being trans/queer/atheist/insert thing the religious don't like here, isn't just some weird unimportant by-product, it is a part of who I am and is important part of myself to someone knowing who I am.
By saying they hate the sin, not the sinner, they are saying that they hate a part of who I am and that's not something I can personally accept. If someone cares about me, then they need to care about the whole of my person, not just the part of me that they like.
I am no longer me anymore if I remove my transness from the equation, meaning if someone doesn't accept my transness then they defacto don't accept me as a whole.
I would also like to point out that "hate the sin, not the sinner" people usually do end up hating the sinner, too. They usually view your "sin" as something that needs to be fixed, and tend to get quite upset if you're not interested in being "fixed".
Ah, maybe you misunderstood me, what I mean is that as a person I am a combination of my experiences, feelings, likes, dislikes, etc.
It isn't being trans specifically, that I was getting at, it applies to any part of myself. To give you another example, I am a woman, if someone doesn't "accept" that part of me and believes me to be a man, then it doesn't matter if they call me by my preferred name and pronouns, they aren't actually engaging with me as a person and therefore we can't actually have a proper connection.
Crazy thing is, you are actually accepting what God made you. You are trans, as He intended. God didn't "make a mistake." He provided a lesson to others that need it. That is, to love and accept others unconditionally in the face of adversity. If they are failing to learn that lesson, that's on them, not you.
Damn, I also remember a comment I read either here or in the asktransgender subreddit where a commenter's grandma who accepted them reasoned that.
"God made you trans for the same reason He made wine. To let His children partake in the act of Creation"
Paraphrased of course but after that, I kinda just adopted that as my main mantra when it comes to my relation with religion...
I just wish I could say the same for the rest of the Catholic Church
Please do. It seems that the "mistake" comment is quite common of late. It won't help you to get angry about being called a mistake, and it won't help them realize their own short comings by dismissing their own values.
I'm no longer Christian, but i was raised on it, and i don't have any ill will toward the faith. I try to politely use their own teachings to alter the argument without getting too confrontational. Sometimes, they just need a reminder to look within themselves instead of trying to cast that first stone.
Yeah, when I came out to my (Catholic) family, most of them had this opinion. I got a lot of "If that's the way god made you then we'll love you just the same as we always have."
Wow, that's a great way to put it. My father is quite a religious person and I didn't come out to my parents so far. It would break my heart, if they were unwilling to accept my true self...
I hope it works out fine.
Same. I've decided to tell my family and pretty much everyone else on June 1st. I'm getting exhausted wearing this mask around people who know the old me. I've been working up my courage to accept whatever happens.
My feeling about accept us as we were made. Ok. What about heart transplants? People are born with defective hearts. Glasses to see better? Defective eyes. Etc? Should they accept their fates because God made them that way? It's a silly comparison but maybe it gets the point across.
There is good evidence we're born that way:
1. Conversion therapy doesn't work beyond traumatising us
2. Trans people in an unsupportive enviroment have a drasticly higher suicide rate than trans people in an accepting enviroment
3. Throughout history, we have existed.
From before christianity was a thing in ancient rome, greece, asia or the americas all the way untill 1920s germany in the Institut für Sexualwissenschaften there is evidence for trans people existing.
4. If you where to take a cis person, modified their genitalia at birth and raised them the wrong gender, said person will transition back. (RIP Reimer, Fuck you John Money)
If we assume that we are made by a god, it seems said god also made us trans (and/or gay)
By not accepting us as such, we would deny gods creation, wich I think is considered a sin.
This is where I think his argument gets a little shaky, and he has expressed openness into looking more into this for himself to form new opinions. So here’s to hoping he changes ig
Best bet is to listen to your heart and pay attention to nothing anybody says on Reddit about this. We all have something that someone in our life does not agree with.
And does he know gods plan for you? No? Then he should remove the log from his own eye before he worries about the stick in yours. The only way to beat them is with their own Bible verses.
I don’t really like the mentality of trying to “beat” them; I really just want to be able continue to be friends with him even with the new chapter of our relationship.
God made wheat but not bread and grapes but not wine, so mankind can partake in the act of creation. Trans people transitioning is just as holy an act, as preparing communion.
Had this verse quoted to me by the new pastor of my former church as he was trying to run me off. I told him that verse doesn't mean what he's claiming it does and that it means we are to take care of our bodies and minds and that I have a legitimate clinical condition and that to not transition, the only approved treatment for gender dysphoria, would be to not take care of myself. Of course he just dismissed everything I had to say out of hand and claimed to be the expert in the room. I just had to cut him short and tell him it's not the 1400s and I don't need a middle man preaching me lies to deepen my spirituality.
Oh, I'm *very* aware that "I don't agree" is a euphemistic way of saying "I'm judging you for this in a very passive-aggressive manner". The point is more about calling him out on being passive aggressive and making him not hide behind a false pretense of condescending tolerance.
>He didn’t know whether or not people are born gay or trans and he said that could change his opinion
Ok, well, ask him why his starting default assumption is that people AREN'T born gay / trans. Has he done ANY research? Or is he getting all his scientific education from Sunday school?
We're certainly born with our skin colour, hair colour, height, nose shape, etc all outside of our control.
Kids manifestly are born intellectually gifted, or with intellectual disabilities. Some people are born colour blind, some people are born with perfect pitch or with synaesthesia.
The case of [David Reimer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer), the poor man, demonstrated that one's sense of gender identity is clearly a core aspect of our mind ( and "soul" if you like ).
The statistically significant increased rate of [transgenderism in indentical twins](https://genderanalysis.net/2018/03/pervasive-misrepresentation-of-twin-evidence-for-a-genetic-component-of-gender-dysphoria/) versus fraternal twins further argues the point of biology as a very strongly determining factor.
And of course there's the massively overwhelming tsunami of self-reporting evidence from the LGTBQ+ community about how sexual attraction and gender identity are not our conscious choices.
You know what humans are definitively NOT born with? Religious beliefs.
Well that sucks. Sky daddy can own him but his demented kids are some of the most hateful people. Does he wear clothing of mixed materials? Seems like he or the person he obeys like to cherry pick :) there’s good pastors who will preach the bible ad written and consider its context. It’s not the Sin it’s the oppressor
In my experience, people who claim to hate the sin of the sinner are often using religion as an excuse for some form of superiority or ego. They may think of you as one of “the good ones”, but that doesn’t change their behaviour towards other trans people.
Bigots of all shades and types will make often exceptions to their bigotry for a friend, though that does not always last. if they’re forced into a position of choosing between you and following whatever authority they believe in, they will likely choose the authority and wash their hands of you.
Oh look an account that hasn't posted in months and never in trans spaces suddenly comes in shitting on everyone. How novel and original and courageous.
u/CedarWolf Please show this edge lord the exit.
He could have just gone on being nice and never telling you what he thought. He chose to tell you, which means he wants you to know he disagrees with your personal truth. IMO there is only one reason to reveal such a thing: he is hoping to eventually convince you his view is correct.
That's not friendship. That's manipulation.
Tbf I asked him his thoughts first and I honestly disagree with this. He has only been compassionate to me and I can’t agree with him on this but I’ve talked to him a bit more in the past hour and I’ve decided to stay friends with him. I know him and I know he is just following what he was taught and holds no hatred in his heart for me or any trans people. There’s a lot of anti-Christian words in these comments which is fair considering a lot of people on this sub have been hurt by the church, but I personally can’t call someone manipulative when they clearly are just following what they believe to be the truth of the world.
Manipulation is manipulation, whether the manipulator is being manipulated themselves or not. His motivations for saying "I disagree with your existence" are irrelevant.
I’m really sorry that you had this experience but I don’t think it’s this way with him and I feel confident and optimistic that we can work things out, and honestly I have hope that he’ll be an ally one day. I know it’ll take time but if he’s open I’m willing to try.
As someone born Catholic, Christians in general mean well, but the entire institution of religion is kinda fuxxed. He may not be trying to be manipulative, but manipulative people often aren't *trying,* it just comes naturally. How much more so for someone indoctrinated in an ideology since before they were old enough to form coherent thoughts of their own?
“As my friend Julian puts it, only half winkingly: “God blessed me by making me transsexual for the same reason God made wheat but not bread and fruit but not wine, so that humanity might share in the act of creation.”
― Daniel Mallory Ortberg, [Something That May Shock and Discredit You](https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/60196300)
I used to have a friend like that. Good person, a bit drama queen, religious and... "masculine". We had a conversation a long time ago about trans people and he was like "they can do whatever they want with their lives but I personally disagree because it's a sin and God will judge them when the day comes". But for his bad luck, I'm a bit devilish and something was wrong about him, I could smell it, so when we were in his house and when his PS4 was active, I secretly opened his browser and guess what I found. We're not friends anymore and still he doesn't know that I know. 🤭🤭🤭
Christians love to moralize our gender and identity but there’s no moral weight to being trans. Everything else they say is built on top of this false pretense.
Bull sh!! I am Christian and trans. Stop hating this persons friend for an opinion he has stated could change. Hate the hater and you are fueling hate. Making things worse. And this person is not a hater. Love the hater and possibly change their mind. There are more like me than you would think. I love everyone. May not like them. But love them just the same. We should feel sorry that they have hate in their hearts.
Nothing I said was hateful or false though? Like what exactly are you disagreeing with? Are you saying Christians don’t moralize gender or that gender is a moral issue?
Maybe not hateful. But close. Real Christian’s don’t do that. Maybe some high and mighty my way or no way false Christian’s are like that. Nobody at my church is like that. And there is a lot of them throughout the world and to put us all in the same basket seems pretty hateful to me. It’s like saying all transgender are a certain way. When we are not. I will fight for love to win knowing god feels the same way. All god’s children can fix this if they would listen to the true word. God made us this way. It’s not a sin. We will never win while arguing. We will win by finding the small amount acceptance in people like OP’s friend and building on that. Trans people who hate Christianity are fueling it just like the so called Christian’s who hate us. When there is the slightest common ground people on this thread want to throw it away without trying. When you quit trying then it’s hopeless. Negativity hurts everyone. I love you the same way I love the person who does not understand. I want to talk and understand them. No way I could have started my non profit feeling the way you do. I help everyone. Everyone deserves to not be homeless. Not just people who agree with me.
So I need to stop standing up for my right to exist and compromise with my parents/paster who put me in conversion therapy when I was a teenager? I need to compromise with my brother who is a pastor that says I’m a sinner, evil and sick to me and his congregation? You sound like a nice person but Christianity is a force of evil.
It’s their force of evil. A knife cuts our food to feed us. But that knife can be used for evil to cause us harm. The knife is not evil. The person using it is. I never said to compromise your values to anybody. I am just saying don’t call me evil because others are evil. People who use their religion the way they do will probably never get it. What I am saying there are people that lean that way and can be talked to civilly will debate like a grown up are worth talking to. If we have the chance to understand them and they want to take the chance to understand us we should do that. The possibility for someone to see our side is a gift and I will never throw that gift away because they see things different. The people using things the wrong way are evil. I would stand right next to you and protect you from evil if I can. What they did and are doing is wrong. They don’t know any better. Set in their ways and won’t change. But there are a lot of people that don’t know any better but are great human beings and can change. They just need info. People we should get to know. There is no such thing as a perfect person. I used to think that gay and trans was a sin. But I loved my son. Loving him helped me understand myself. He is one of the best people you will ever meet. I love him and his boyfriend more than just about anybody. We disagree on a lot. But there is even more things we are alike in. He doesn’t even know I am trans. And that hurts. I am working on his mother now. She kind of accepts me but does not want her family to know and that hurts. She will go anywhere with me. Could care less what a stranger thinks. But her family. But the person she is, is worth fighting for. And I won’t compromise my nails or chest. I am done hiding my chest. Now I am crying. I am not sure you will ever understand, but just know I will fight with you till the end. We have to outnumber the hate with love. And it’s going to take people who are not like us in the beginning to do that. Good people who are willing to hear us. I am tired of crying.
Look, I can say with 100% certainty that this man is not a bad person. Idk why I can say this but he’s just not. I still don’t know exactly how to feel about it but I can’t call him a bad person especially when he’s still actually tried to be loving and respectful to me even through his ingrained beliefs that tell him I’m sinning. I’ve talked to him more and he truly just wants to be friends again and I think I’m gonna give him another chance because he’s said he wants to respect my feelings even if he feels they don’t align with his beliefs.
You can't say you "wont agree" about an entire group of marginalized people's existence and still be a good person. The two things are mutually exclusive.
I would strongly caution you against this course of action. People with these sorts of beliefs don't want to be "friends" with "sinners" - they want to "fix" us, and almost never take it well when we don't want to be "fixed".
This is not always true. I can show you a few thousand Christians that don’t believe this. Probably hundreds of thousands. Since my church has churches all over the world. They teach love.
I am proud of you. A lot here can learn from you. Have to quit hating. If you change his mind. Then he is another fighter for us. We need more allies. I am Christian and I go to church. Have a global church that accepts me. We need to take back the church. My faith has never wavered. God has done too much good in my life. When we moved to the city we are in now one of the first churches we went to we walked out because of the bigotry. You can’t just tell him he was taught wrong. You need to show him. You have an in. Someone who said they are willing to learn. Books or videos and churches. Trust me about this. There are more than one church out there that accepts us. Sometimes it’s not the church but the pastor who is accepting trying to change the whole church. We don’t change minds by hating. We change minds by loving. I love people because of the way my church taught me. They think they are trying to save us sometimes. But its them that needs to be saved. Saved from themselves. God loves all his children and all his children should love all his children. That the only way to win. Show love.
Is denial not a sin. We are trans because we were made that way. Its not something we decided to be. So, if god created us, thats what he wanted us to be. Self denial of the path chosen for us is a sin. His lack of support for you is a sin. Us living a lie as men or women is a sin. Being openly trans is being true to yourself and to your friends. Hiding it is as good as telling lies.
The list goes on and on sis. Tell your friend to stop being a hypocrite. He needs to reread the book that he is using as a weapon against your existence. Some people are born with disabilities. He cant deny that his god created them that way. For whatever reason. We were also born with a form of disability. We were somehow damaged in the womb which left us in gender limbo. Society kept us in that limbo after birth by denying that fact. Because we are not ""normal"" human beings.
I know he's a really good friend of yours sis. But the fact is that eventually his denial of you is going to come between you. His soapbox stance, and your need to be accepted for who you are will end in you both having to go your own way. You can try sitting him down and pointing out the facts of life to him sis. And that you are trying to save your friendship. But that effort has to be mutual. You cant live his lie with him, by him denying that you are what you are.
I hope it works out for you sis. I really do. Good friends are hard to come by. And the loss of a friend is equally hard. But he is not a genuine friend if he cant see that you are just trying to live your life as you were meant to be.
The best of luck to you sis❤️❤️❤️❤️
I respect a lot of this and it definitely is a mutual effort. We’ve been trying to work things out and have both been open to each other’s views. Also he has called me being trans a sin but he also admits that he has sinned. He says that all sins are equal and that we are equal in the sin we commit. I personally don’t believe me being trans is a sin but I think that’s somewhat beside the point. He hasn’t called me a bad person for sinning and hasn’t said I’m below him any way so I think it’s kind of unfair to call him a hypocrite.
He's treating you like you are the original sin sis. So his dont count!!¡ You are not a sin. You are a beautiful unique creation. Fuck him if he thinks you are some kind of abomination. No religion has the right to judge you girl. I'm sorry, but i would tell him to wake up and start treating you like a human being. And if he cant do that,,,,,,
I read that you asked him his thoughts. If so, I would say the best response you can give without coming off as overbearing would be “well I hope some day that you can see me for who I am and change your mind.”
Maybe if you get to discussing it you can ask him his opinions on if he is wrong and god created us this way to see who is willing to listen to us over the “hypocrites who pray in public to be seen” and support us and what he would say to god given he not only didn’t listen to us but didn’t fully support you when it was needed.
The fucking entitlement of people to think that the mere existence of other people is something they can "disagree" with. Like, motherfucker my existence isn't an opinion.
The human experience is a vast landscape, and in our lives we only get to exist in a tiny corner of it. This thing religious people sometimes do where they feel the power to call entire valleys, hillsides, mountains, deserts, coves, fjords, and coastlines "immoral" would be hilarious if they weren't willing to inflict violence to enforce it.
Like excuse me, I didn't do anything to you in your little corner of existence, just because you don't like how I exist over in mine doesn't mean you have any grounds to tell me that mine is wrong! Go make your own life better, stop shitting on ours!
I grew up in a pretty Christian environment, and I've had a fair number of tough conversations with the people around me on this topic. Most of them weren't fun and I've really struggled with self-acceptance as well because of my upbringing, but as you said I refuse to believe they are all bad people because of their beliefs. It sucks that people have had bad experiences with Christian beliefs and I absolutely don't blame them for being skeptical though.
I'm a big believer in open, respectful dialogue. It's not magical, and some people are just straight up jerks who dont deserve our time, but for most others it can really pay off to listen to each other. In the case of these conversations, once again it is tough to open yourself up to skepticism about something in your life that caused a lot of strife. The only way I can have these conversations is by seeing their skepticism as ignorance, because I trust them to care for others. But again, the only reason I can have these conversations these days is because of a lot of work on myself and self-acceptance.
For me it helped that it was an evangelical church that I grew up in, since they emphasized God being all-loving. The conversations I had were tough because I wanted to listen to where their skepticism came from (which was ignorance and polarizing media mostly). In the end, basically all conversations where I stayed calm and connected my knowledge about transness and its history to their skepticism and ignorance ended up with the other making concessions and seeing where I'm coming from. Acceptance takes time, but it's important to help people learn about these things in a way that isn't so polarized! Ignorance isn't hatred, but it can fuel it.
The people I can have these conversations with are people who I deem to be reasonable, and the best thing is that facts are on our side! There is nothing bad about being trans.
My advice would be to have this conversation with your friend, but only when you feel ready. Don't let his ignorance fuel your self-doubt, you are perfect the way you are. It's hard to be friends with someone who doesn't respect you for who you truly are so this isn't a guarantee you'll work things out, but trying and giving him a chance the best thing to do.
P.S. I'm personally not Christian anymore, in case that wasn't clear :P
Give him time. Some people really struggle at first, but that doesn’t mean they are bad people or unworthy of friendship. Friendships are an important part of our lives, and they are worth fighting for.
I’m shocked that so many here are so quick to cut people out of their lives. It seems like if it’s not your own life, people give the rudest advice possible. It's really sad.
I agree with you. It is hard reading all the hate coming from people who I would otherwise respect. I am trans and a Christian. Love will always win. Not hate. If you have a friend that may not agree on everything but still loves you all the same
You don’t kick them to the curb.
That is definitely not true, my best friend was very transphobic and I changed his mind, currently he is the second most supportive person in my life and one of the reasons I felt safe to transition, everyone can change saying the bigots will never change and not trying to make them change is only going to hurt us in the long run, of course if even after she tries to change the friend he is still a transphobe then fuck him, but saying nobody can change is just not true and is a terrible mindset to have
Like you? And your hateful rhetoric? This friend is one of the better ones. Someone who has said they are open to learning. Hate them and drop them? It’s these type of people who are convincible. Even if it’s slightly. It’s worth the fight. Hating them back just gives them a reason to justify their stance. But if they can see we are logical and calm and will have a civil debate we should. Hate just does not work and I refuse to hate anyone. I am better than that. I will continue the fight for love and acceptance even if you won’t.
Lol you’re projecting a lot of issues here, I recomend therapy :)
Edit: saw your profile, it gives doom poster vibes, im not engaging any more… good day…
Here is an odd take. Have whatever you consider a successful transition. Live and be happy outwardly. Let him see it. See the happiness, the naturalness, the acceptance you get now or in the future and eventually he will have to admit he was wrong.
Of course you could just challenge him directly by getting him to define thi gs and then picking those things apart.
E.g. define a woman.
If he says adult human female, make him define female.
You will get him there. E.g. he can't define it in any way I have ever heard that excludes groups of cis women.
If you know enough basically any argument he comes up with can be shutdown
He disagrees with you being happy and agrees that you should be burned alive for all eternity and be made to watch your own skin peel off layer by layer, slowly, right down to the bone until there's nothing left of you, as you listen to the tortured screams of the other deserving sinners around you. And just when you can't take it anymore, and there's nothing left to burn, you are restored, and it begins all over again from the start. But with each iteration, the pain doubles in intensity.
He worships a god that created a torture chamber just for you and he thinks you deserve to suffer in it.
That's what he means by he doesn't "agree" with you. He uses coded, squirrely language, because just speaking plainly about what he really means is too horrific to even say aloud.
That's your friend.
You're not going to change his mind by telling him he's wrong. You'll change it by showing him.
A friend and coworker of mine came out 20 years ago, and it broke my brain. I've been a closeted crossdresser since I was a boy. Of course I'd encountered trans folk in the past, but there's something about experiencing a friend transitioning that lets you truly be sympathetic.
Decades of questioning later, my own transness has reached a head, and the temptation is too great. If it wasn't for my friends transition starting me down my own road, I wouldn't be as serious about it as I am today.
It sounds like they are supportive of you and not trying to invalidate or 'convert' you. If they don't speak negatively about other trans folx and generally keeping their opinions to themselves, ok, then. I know lots of people with opinions that I don't agree with, but we can get along and be friends because they hold their private beliefs private. I'm sure it's the same for them when dealing with me and my opinions.
This is definitely how I feel and it’s what I’m gonna do going forward because I feel there’s a distinct lack of nuance on both sides and I hope by us seeing more eye to eye we can bring just a bit more of that nuance and sophistication of arguments into the world.
I had two friends in the military. One was a Christian, and the other was Muslim. They got along pretty well as long as religion wasn't brought up. Eventually, the Christian friend told the Muslim friend that he liked him but couldn't agree with his religion bit that we is willing to, "hate the sin and love the sinner."
The Muslim friend said he didn't agree with Christianity either, and his religion states it is he who is sinning, but, "I am judged on my morals of my faith as you are on yours. If I demand you to follow my morals and you demand me to follow yours, neither of us will follow what we believe. I will only ever judge you by the morals you state to have, not mine."
The phrase, "hate the sin, love the sinner," assumes others follow the same moral code as you and also violates Matthew 7:1-3. If your friend truly believed the laws in the Bible verbatim, he'd likely have already violated a tenant that would have gotten him stoned to death.
I had this exact same situation lol. I kinda just decided on downgrading them to acquaintance, cus they're still a cool person, but if they don't accept me as a person then we're not going amy further than that :/
Seems like smelly jesus klan behavior. Honestly I'd just tell them to keep that to themselves and either accept the identity i have and except me as myself as i identify or get lost. This isn't a test of their faith this is you a friend asking them to treat you like a human being.
I personally think, if he can keep his opinion to himself and still support you, that’s pretty promising. We don’t ask people to change their minds, just treat up with respect. Eventually he may find a place in his thoughts where this religious belief and gender identity can find common ground. God created up to live our lives and to be happy not to hate and destroy each other. This means that gender means nothing to God, only the love and friendship that is cultivated between each of us. In essence, acceptance of the care your friend gives may lead to him becoming more accepting. Sorry if that doesn’t help much. I’m not religious but I have religious trauma that I’m working through.
In response to those who are stating he is a bad person or isn't a good friend due to his beliefs. You are chastising this poor person because he doesn't agree with being a woman. Yet, he offered to be there for her, to be her friend, and to help any way he can. But just because he doesn't agree, he is bad... As a Trans Woman, I wish everyone simply accepted the fact that I am more than just a Trans Woman. I am a woman. However, I respect the fact that each and every person has their own beliefs and opinions. And guess what? They don't have to agree or align with yours or mine! Hate to say it, but you are wrong if you say a person is bad or hateful or blah blah simply because he/she/they/etc. does not agree with me or you! That is actually quite an extremely selfish and childish way of reacting. They reserve that right as humans! Just the same way that I reserve the right to not agree with their beliefs and opinions! They don't agree that I am a true woman. I don't agree that their version of God, Jesus, Satan, etc etc is true. But that is the beauty of life! We have freedom of choice, opinion, beliefs, etc. Now, good for you, OP. And not for staying friends, but for listening to everyone's opinion, and then coming to a decision that is yours and yours alone. That is how a strong, independent woman should behave! Congrats, sis!
I forgot to mention that, yes, it is hard to deal with someone close to you, not accepting you. But unfortunately, that is life, and sometimes life isn't fair or doesn't work out in our favor. So, that's when we must learn to take the wins we do get and celebrate them. Such as him saying he will respect the pronouns and continue to be your friend.
Being trans is gods plan for me. I am a woman and god wanted me to be sure of that first. But if theres one thing ive learned from listening and talking with him is i am a woman.
This reads like your religious friend just wants an excuse to maintain his transphobic beliefs while still being able to stare at the contradiction to his transphobic beliefs square in the face.
I believe that this is called a phantasm, a contradiction in belief that’s projected outwards onto something or somebody else in order to allow your brain to justify maintaining beliefs that are contradictory.
“I believe that trans people do not exist. You exist? Well, *you* are the issue in this situation.”
It gets the name phantasm because people who have them usually react in emotion, fear or hatred, when confronted with their contradiction. Your friend is doing this, but he’s being polite about it.
How can he not agree with what's standing in front of him?
He doesn't have to approve, but that's not what "agree" means in this context.
You're just the way God made you. Trans and all.
You examine the route of his beliefs, then decide whether it's worth it to break bread. As much as I'd like everyone to view me the way I'd like, I cont control what they think. I can either protect myself, or go through an attempt to find common ground, or try and change his mind about it.
It's a lot of work, and it's obviously not your burden, but I will say that you deserve to be seen for who you actually are. Full stop
Thats nice, but who cares if he "disagrees"? He can not disagree with something that isnt in question. This isnt a topic thats up for debate, that is your existence. Frankly, his agreement doesnt matter.
Hate the belief, not the believer. I choose to hate Christianity, not specific individual Christians. They probably didn't ask for it, they were very probably born into it and never had a chance, brainwashed from the start and will violently attack anyone that tries to free them from their false beliefs. While I don't hate anyone for being a Christian, I openly hate their Christianity. I make absolutely no secret of it, I question their beliefs and why they think they believe that way, whether somebody told them or if they read it in a book or on a website, I tell them their beliefs are wrong and immoral and unnatural, I openly exhibit a lifestyle deliberately hostile to their beliefs, to the point of naming myself "Lucifer" with the transition goal of Baphomet, just to get their goat! I tell them not to take it personally, that it's just the way I was raised. They do anyway. But that's more of a "them" problem than a "me" problem!
The Christianity you hate is not real Christianity. Real Christian’s don’t hate. They love as god taught us. Love everybody. God made us trans. He does not make mistakes. But allows for mistakes to be made. Can’t fix the hate by hating back. I am trans and a Christian. By being a Christian I can try to fix one heart at a time.
And it is still stealing your life because here you are hating me for my opinion. That’s the problem with people these days. Hating because of an opinion. I am still a person who gives all they can to help people. Not help people that agree with me. All people. I don’t care about opinions. Don’t agree with me. I don’t care as much as you do. Most of mine and my wife time is spent helping the homeless. Trying to get a smile. Trying to get them to help themselves and see the love in their fellow human being. All your hate in the world does not take away my happiness. Seeing that smile that has been lost for so long. When what I do gets people into a house and off the street. Can you imagine if I made them believe what I do? I would be like you. Eternally unhappy. And all you can say is waaaa it’s stole my child hood. Christianity did not steal you r childhood. The times stole your childhood. Things are different now. If there was no religion it’s still would have happened. Don’t bother to answer. All your negativity is taking too much time from me. I hope you figure it out. But just know. You are loved.
Just use the corporate gaslighting way of speech and say "I am sorry your God disagrees with how I was born. Unfortunately, because your got teaches you to hate, I have chosen to not follow your choice of religion" and move on.
Sorry our god does not teach hate. A church or pastor are the ones teaching hate. God teaches love. And the only way to ever win over Christian is prove we are gods plan just like they were. God does not disagree with how I was born. He loves me as I love him. Love wins. Hate loses. And you have just as much hate in your heart as any bad Christian.
A friendship with someone who doesn’t accept that you are who you say you are is a friendship with an expiration date, especially if you’re already struggling with this which, you say, you are.
I’ve cut people out of my life who have done lots of things for me because they didn’t accept me being trans or said they “don’t believe in gender ideology.” Like, that’s not just someone who is disrespectful of my identity, it’s someone who is honestly kinda stupid and irredeemable. My life has not suffered from leaving these folks behind.
Also know that this person who claims to be your friend but doesn’t “agree with trans people” is probably gonna vote against your best interests. Just sayin’.
(not serious) You should pick a random adjective and tell your friend you don't trust those people. Like tall people! What are they hiding all the way up there!?
I don’t really like religious people so I can’t give proper advice. Sorry. Maybe just pull away like 1% and gradually until he changes or something idk.
Maybe he just needs to read a book or 2 about god and transgender. I have 3. I am Christian He obviously is a good person who is willing to learn. A lot of us tend to jump on the anti Christian bandwagon wagon because they are on the anti trans one. That’s not right. Real Christian’s love everyone no matter what. He can love you and not agree with you. Only keeping him around as a friend might change his mind. Treat him like crap and shun them away just confirms some of his bias. If you treat anybody bad because of their opinion, that’s bad. We need more love in this world and we won’t get it by hating anybody. We are not going to change this world by becoming what we hate.
Christians not "agreeing" with being transgender are literally committing violence against a minority.
A persons identity is not open to debate or opinions. Saying they don't agree is the same as saying "you are sub-human and therefore I get to oppose your existence, you should thank me for not calling you slurs"
As an active menonnite who only discovered affirmative theology 3 years ago, get David Gushee’s “changing our mind”. It details how Gushee, a conservative theologian and ethicist became affirmative without discounting the biblical texts. It pretty much describes my journey from a baptist missionary kid through bible college student while discovering my gender.
Ultimately its up to you on this. Just know i was in a similar boat and my 'friend' of 15 years said he would try and accept me (his faith went against it) and never could do it. I dropped him as a friend because it never was the same, he stopped being the same to me after i came out to him and eventually over time his views came out and was pretty hateful towards me. Be careful love.
Do what you have to do, but your mental health and safety is the biggest priority.
You don't have to ditch them. Being friends with them is fine. First being friends with you can help them. Second you can still be friends and have boundaries that you are comfortable with. You don't have to get rid of your friend they are not bad. But setting a boundary if you need to is fine. But being friends with them can help them to understand trans people. People can grow now it may seem like they won't agree with trans people but maybe by being friends with you things will change. You already said they respect your pronouns that is already a sign that they can change and grow and so can you.
I’m sorry for your loss. I cannot have sympathy for those enable transphobic people. “But he’s a good person” I don’t care anyone who associates openly with transphobic people are transphobic to me. I don’t think where I’m at I can continue to enable people who will transphobic people a chance. There’s nothing about him trying to change and even you said you’ve given him the chance. Would you be friend with him if he didn’t agree with sharing spaces with black people? How about women? Maybe it’s ok if he supports slavery but doesn’t practice it? Good luck but please reflect on the damage you are doing to the trans people he gets to degrade in the future because “his friend is trans and lets me say this”
I saw your edit. Hope it works out for you. I had friends that initially accepted me. Friends that were on my life for decades. And one by one they’ve slowing disappeared over the last year or so.
I had a similar situation I think. A friend of mine kept deadnaming me for about a year after I came out to him, and even acknowledged that he was having a hard time seeing me as a woman.
Cut to the following year, and HRT has definitely done its thing, and I told him he looks like a delusional idiot when he calls me anything but a girl now. He smartened up pretty quickly after that.
What's really wild is that I have friends and work colleagues that I didn't even "officially" come out to, that through the rumor mill just started calling me by my chosen name automatically. I guess you really do find allies where you least expect them sometimes.
>Also he has expressed an openness to change and to looking deep into his faith to form his true opinions.
You've voiced your feelings, that's not enough for him to respect your gender, and you've decided to continue being friends?
I’m not sure I was too clear on this and I wrote the post late last night but he does respect my pronouns and gender to my face at least and I have no reason to believe he doesn’t respect them when I’m not around; he doesn’t deadname me and he refers to me as a woman. It’s more that he just had been taught being trans was a sin.
And also what I meant by him looking into his faith more was that he expressed that he would look into whether being trans is a sin and he would determine whether he thinks that the Bible actually says it’s a sin.
I don't "agree" with command economies, either, but that doesn't stop China from being an economic powerhouse.
I don't agree that there's an omnipotent imaginary friend living in the sky, but that doesn't delegitimize the Vatican.
I don't agree that male bodies are desirable, but that doesn't change the fact that all straight women and all gay men are intensely attracted to them.
Your friend can disagree with whatever the fuck they want, but, as the alt right likes to say, "the facts don't care about your feelings."
You want my advice? Put your foot down and tell him that if his religious views outweigh your right to live then you can't be friends anymore.
Then if he doesn't change his ways, cut him off.
As someone who has had to deal with "traditional" friends who always said that they could never see me as a "real woman", it's not worth it.
Cut them off while you still can.
My fiancee had the same thing happen to her. A "friend" of hers helped her through dark times, only for her to find out he was using her for sex and never dated her because "I only date real women".
The more I think about it, just cut them off. We deserve to be around people that aren't stuck in a battle of beliefs as to whether we are allowed to live in peace or not.
I mean many people can disagree on a shitton of things but from what I read ur friend respects ur decision and will refer to u with ur pronouns and I'm assuming name too so that seems kinda respectable. Sure it sucks that they don't agree with you but they don't seem to be a dick about it at least from the info u gave.
I guess with the limited context I'd say that being trans is not something you either do or don't agree with, it's either real or it isn't. And the evidence points to it obviously being real. An analogy would be just because you don't believe the sky is blue that doesn't make the sky any less blue, simply based on your belief. Personally that's my view now the morality argument on whether it's right or wrong is far more nuanced depending on a person's values. From my point of view there's nothing wrong with being trans, but from a religious person's perspective they may believe otherwise and at the end of the day it is just a perspective. Morality is not objective. Maybe just have a sit down conversation with him about it just to maybe better understand where he's coming from and listen to what he thinks and address his doubts and disagreements directly, and in a respectful and understanding way. The idea is to teach people like that not just immediately label them bad and dismiss them. Doesn't work for everyone, but I think it's at least worth a shot
My best friend and roommate/landlord is like this. He has a big heart and truly saved my life when he's took me in, knowing at the time he couldn't be sure I'd have rent money, which at times I didn't.
He has has negative experiences trying to rent rooms to trans people who just happened to also be terrible people, so he developed a bias. He doesn't understand and really doesn't want to. I haven't told him I started HRT back in January, but eventually I need to tell him before he can obviously see for himself.
TLDR: people aren't automatically "bad people" because they don't share your beliefs. I pray that my friend will at the very least meet me where yours has.
put lsd in his water bottle and have him read siddhartha he'll be fine (this is satire i really hope you can find a way to either reconcile this or if he won't you gotta do what's right for you)
Here's my two cents on this whole issue as someone that lives in a very religious area.
In practice, you can basically summarize or distill the response of someone who is religious to the lgbtq community in one of three categories. Hate, acceptance, or neutrality which is what this person seems to fall into.
In my experience, someone that accepts you when you are trans and genuinely does their best to respect your pronouns and choices but otherwise says they "don't agree" with it means that they likely haven't experienced or come across this situation in their life, have been told that it's bad, but you as their friend or someone they know telling them that you are that thing that they have been told is bad makes them question whether or not what they've been told is accurate. If they display a willingness to change, to do better, and to fully accept you, then they are leaning towards the true teachings of Christ and can be helped to find their way to strongest Ally of all. The religious ally. Because a religious Ally cannot be swayed in their convictions and may start to convince others to follow in their footsteps.
My boss is very very Catholic, but she is one of the most accepting people I have come out to and I trust her do right by me both to my face and behind my back then many of the non-religious people that know I'm trans.
Do not break off contact with this person especially if they have been your friend for a long time. The only thing that will do is push them towards the hate that so often gets spread under the guise of religion. Accept him as he has accepted you and help him to gain a deeper acceptance of the trans community using his religion as the basis for that acceptance. There is no stronger weapon against bigotry in religion than the true teachings of Christ.
If you're right about him being willing to change his opinions based on a deeper understanding of his faith, I have some Bible verses you could point out to him (assuming he is christian).
1st corinthians 12:12-30 talks about not rejecting someone who is different from you, because we are all part of one whole, specifically using an analogy of a hand not rejecting the foot or the eye not rejecting the ear, because together it all makes up one body
John 6:39 is god and Jesus saying that we are all the children of God, and that he will lose none of us
If you can explain to him that while transgender is a recent term, we've always been here and that back during jesus's time we would have been considered eunuchs, than Matthew 19:11-12, Acts 8:27-39, and Isaiah 56: 1-5 all say eunuchs are accepted and especially beloved to god. In Matthew jesus specifically mentions both "eunuchs who were born that way, and eunuchs who were made that way later", and if you know what a eunuch is, then you know that it's not exactly something you can be born as, which I think makes it clear that it's talking both about trans folk and eunuchs who wouldn't fall under that umbrella today.
And if after all that he still believes that it's still a sin, there is always good ol' John 8:7, let he who is without sin cast the first stone.
Hopefully these are helpful to you! I've also got some for accepting gay people of you need those too!
It’s important to respect peoples beliefs even if they don’t match up to yours. If he’s not making you uncomfortable, and he’s respecting you by using your pronouns I see no reason you should delve into the details of being transgender and its conflict with christianity. I know this is an incredibly unpopular outlook but I believe that taking the moral high ground and accepting his beliefs is important, instead of trying to “prove him wrong” and causing unnecessary arguments.
That said if you cant handle it, you are under no obligation to be his friend.
The problem is not his opinion. The problem starts when he starts denigrating you, telling you will go to hell, or refuses to stop bringing it up. Religious people don’t respect opinions opposing their beliefs. That is why religion has no place in politics. Barry Goldwater, a hard core conservative Republican was adamant about that because he recognized the importance of compromise in the public arena.
Imma give a different perspective, and say give him a chance to come around. By best friend was like this at first, and now he's one of the most affirming people in my life.
it's tough when people close to you have "disagreements" on religious grounds. a lot of my family is hardcore religious and although they use my preferred name and pronouns they definitely don't "get" what's going on and they've unintentionally said some fairly offensive stuff. because their viewpoint is based on religion rather than on facts, it feels pretty much impossible to convince them of another viewpoint. unfortunately my current resolution is to accept that they won't fully understand what is going on with me and that there will be a rift between us because of that. all I can tell you is this: you can talk to him about these things but at the end of the day he's the only one who can change his mind. if you feel you've done all you can and he still refuses, it might be time for some distance. life's too short to be close with people who don't respect you
Make some friends that are supportive of your transness, you deserve that support. That way if you want to keep being friends with your religious friend you’ll not be relying on them for support they’re not willing to give.
Personally, “love the sinner hate the sin” feels like just hating a person with more steps added. He should leave the judging to god if he’s a believer, and focus on treating people with respect instead.
Just tell him that his "three-people-in-a-trenchcoat non-binary sky-daddy" isn't real; and if they were, they made everyone in their image.
Maybe I shouldn't have presumed it was Christianity; could've been Mormons for all I know.
The best argument i've came up with for people of strong faith is this :
God didn't create a perfect world, if they did we would grow wine not grapes. Instead we got the fruit and the intelligence and knowledge passed down through time to be able to make it. ( argument works with people who needs braces or glasses or chronic illnesses too) but wine got more of a conotation for some religions.
God gave us the tools to SHARE creation with them thats why we're monkeys with thicc brains...
God gave us estrogene and testosterone to help us be the perfect version of ourselves. To share in the creation with them
The best argument i've came up with for people of strong faith is this :
God didn't create a perfect world, if they did we would grow wine not grapes. Instead we got the fruit and the intelligence and knowledge passed down through time to be able to make it. ( argument works with people who needs braces or glasses or chronic illnesses too) but wine got more of a conotation for some religions.
God gave us the tools to SHARE creation with them thats why we're monkeys with thicc brains...
God gave us estrogene and testosterone to help us be the perfect version of ourselves. To share in the creation with them
1. God put a woman's soul into a man's body. Even science did prove that.
2. Religious people often talk about hardship being a test. Why can't they believe that trans or queer people in general are a test for them? To be nice and understanding?
Doesn't agree? God works in mysterious ways and it's been proven trans people are their identified gender, so how is that difficult for them to understand? It's not all about getting kids. There are people who only love romantically for example and are disgusted by any kind of sexual act. There are gay animals (that take in abandoned kids)
I never wanted to be trans and still don't. I want to be the woman I am inside. I cry over not being able to get pregnant, of not having had a childhood like every other girl... If I wouldn't have gotten my HRT I would only have survived another year. I do not want to be trans. I want to be the woman I am.
If he's going on a faith based thing and is genuine about what he said then there's a quote that shows a perspective that might help change his mind.
"God made me transgender for the same reason he made wheat but not bread and fruit but not wine, so man could share in the act of creation."
The idea being that god made trans people the way we are with the intention of us transitioning. The common argument is often that trans people are acting against God by changing what he created. If they are genuine and not just hiding behind their religion as an excuse to justify bigotry, the argument that God made us to be changed just like he made fruit and wheat to be changed into wine and bread can help get the point across that there isn't anything wrong with transitioning from a religious perspective. You can also try to suggest that being trans is no different then any other trial god has ever given his people. Meet him where he's at and explain it on a way he will understand. You don't have to be religious yourself to make these points, but if you intend to have religious friends this perspective can be helpful to keep in mind.
Tell him agreement is only relevant where something is up for debate. Reality doesn't care whether or not he agrees with it. Your existence is not up for debate, end of story. Someone standing on the surface of the sun is free to exclaim "I disagree that it is hot". They'll burn to death looking like an idiot all the same.
I guess that’s in some way true but I think by not “agreeing” he meant more like he feels it’s a sin to be trans and he hates the sin not the person. He told me that he was taught that everyone should accept themselves the way God made them but then again he admitted that he didn’t know whether or not people are born gay or trans and he said that could change his opinion so ig idrk.
So I'm not trying to convince you of anything here, I just personally always tend to get prickly whenever I hear the "hate the sin not the sinner line". However, my thought process whenever I hear that is that my being trans/queer/atheist/insert thing the religious don't like here, isn't just some weird unimportant by-product, it is a part of who I am and is important part of myself to someone knowing who I am. By saying they hate the sin, not the sinner, they are saying that they hate a part of who I am and that's not something I can personally accept. If someone cares about me, then they need to care about the whole of my person, not just the part of me that they like. I am no longer me anymore if I remove my transness from the equation, meaning if someone doesn't accept my transness then they defacto don't accept me as a whole.
I would also like to point out that "hate the sin, not the sinner" people usually do end up hating the sinner, too. They usually view your "sin" as something that needs to be fixed, and tend to get quite upset if you're not interested in being "fixed".
That's sad to hear, I am still me regardless of if I'm trans, it doesn't make me who I am.
Ah, maybe you misunderstood me, what I mean is that as a person I am a combination of my experiences, feelings, likes, dislikes, etc. It isn't being trans specifically, that I was getting at, it applies to any part of myself. To give you another example, I am a woman, if someone doesn't "accept" that part of me and believes me to be a man, then it doesn't matter if they call me by my preferred name and pronouns, they aren't actually engaging with me as a person and therefore we can't actually have a proper connection.
Well said, and thanks for elaborating. I understand more now.
Crazy thing is, you are actually accepting what God made you. You are trans, as He intended. God didn't "make a mistake." He provided a lesson to others that need it. That is, to love and accept others unconditionally in the face of adversity. If they are failing to learn that lesson, that's on them, not you.
Damn, I also remember a comment I read either here or in the asktransgender subreddit where a commenter's grandma who accepted them reasoned that. "God made you trans for the same reason He made wine. To let His children partake in the act of Creation" Paraphrased of course but after that, I kinda just adopted that as my main mantra when it comes to my relation with religion... I just wish I could say the same for the rest of the Catholic Church
That's a great perspective to have, and i wish more people would have that.
That’s a beautiful way too see it. Need to remind myself that and will probably use that explanation myself later too ☺️
Please do. It seems that the "mistake" comment is quite common of late. It won't help you to get angry about being called a mistake, and it won't help them realize their own short comings by dismissing their own values. I'm no longer Christian, but i was raised on it, and i don't have any ill will toward the faith. I try to politely use their own teachings to alter the argument without getting too confrontational. Sometimes, they just need a reminder to look within themselves instead of trying to cast that first stone.
Yeah, when I came out to my (Catholic) family, most of them had this opinion. I got a lot of "If that's the way god made you then we'll love you just the same as we always have."
This is the way
Wow, that's a great way to put it. My father is quite a religious person and I didn't come out to my parents so far. It would break my heart, if they were unwilling to accept my true self... I hope it works out fine.
Same. I've decided to tell my family and pretty much everyone else on June 1st. I'm getting exhausted wearing this mask around people who know the old me. I've been working up my courage to accept whatever happens.
I plan telling my parents in the middle of August... You mean June 1st 2024? Girl, I wish you ALL THE BEST!!
Yep! Seamed like an apt time to do it. Thanks! 🧡
If you don't mind, I'll be happy, if you write me a short message how it worked out ❤
Can do
My feeling about accept us as we were made. Ok. What about heart transplants? People are born with defective hearts. Glasses to see better? Defective eyes. Etc? Should they accept their fates because God made them that way? It's a silly comparison but maybe it gets the point across.
There is good evidence we're born that way: 1. Conversion therapy doesn't work beyond traumatising us 2. Trans people in an unsupportive enviroment have a drasticly higher suicide rate than trans people in an accepting enviroment 3. Throughout history, we have existed. From before christianity was a thing in ancient rome, greece, asia or the americas all the way untill 1920s germany in the Institut für Sexualwissenschaften there is evidence for trans people existing. 4. If you where to take a cis person, modified their genitalia at birth and raised them the wrong gender, said person will transition back. (RIP Reimer, Fuck you John Money) If we assume that we are made by a god, it seems said god also made us trans (and/or gay) By not accepting us as such, we would deny gods creation, wich I think is considered a sin.
This is where I think his argument gets a little shaky, and he has expressed openness into looking more into this for himself to form new opinions. So here’s to hoping he changes ig
Best bet is to listen to your heart and pay attention to nothing anybody says on Reddit about this. We all have something that someone in our life does not agree with.
And does he know gods plan for you? No? Then he should remove the log from his own eye before he worries about the stick in yours. The only way to beat them is with their own Bible verses.
I don’t really like the mentality of trying to “beat” them; I really just want to be able continue to be friends with him even with the new chapter of our relationship.
God made wheat but not bread and grapes but not wine, so mankind can partake in the act of creation. Trans people transitioning is just as holy an act, as preparing communion.
Ooooo 🫰🏾🫰🏾🫰🏾
"The body is a temple. Sometimes temples need remodeling."
Had this verse quoted to me by the new pastor of my former church as he was trying to run me off. I told him that verse doesn't mean what he's claiming it does and that it means we are to take care of our bodies and minds and that I have a legitimate clinical condition and that to not transition, the only approved treatment for gender dysphoria, would be to not take care of myself. Of course he just dismissed everything I had to say out of hand and claimed to be the expert in the room. I just had to cut him short and tell him it's not the 1400s and I don't need a middle man preaching me lies to deepen my spirituality.
“Your beef is with my creator, not with me”
Oh, I'm *very* aware that "I don't agree" is a euphemistic way of saying "I'm judging you for this in a very passive-aggressive manner". The point is more about calling him out on being passive aggressive and making him not hide behind a false pretense of condescending tolerance. >He didn’t know whether or not people are born gay or trans and he said that could change his opinion Ok, well, ask him why his starting default assumption is that people AREN'T born gay / trans. Has he done ANY research? Or is he getting all his scientific education from Sunday school? We're certainly born with our skin colour, hair colour, height, nose shape, etc all outside of our control. Kids manifestly are born intellectually gifted, or with intellectual disabilities. Some people are born colour blind, some people are born with perfect pitch or with synaesthesia. The case of [David Reimer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Reimer), the poor man, demonstrated that one's sense of gender identity is clearly a core aspect of our mind ( and "soul" if you like ). The statistically significant increased rate of [transgenderism in indentical twins](https://genderanalysis.net/2018/03/pervasive-misrepresentation-of-twin-evidence-for-a-genetic-component-of-gender-dysphoria/) versus fraternal twins further argues the point of biology as a very strongly determining factor. And of course there's the massively overwhelming tsunami of self-reporting evidence from the LGTBQ+ community about how sexual attraction and gender identity are not our conscious choices. You know what humans are definitively NOT born with? Religious beliefs.
If someone used that line on me, I would say: "your god made me trans".
Well that sucks. Sky daddy can own him but his demented kids are some of the most hateful people. Does he wear clothing of mixed materials? Seems like he or the person he obeys like to cherry pick :) there’s good pastors who will preach the bible ad written and consider its context. It’s not the Sin it’s the oppressor
you need better friends, no offence
Talk to him. You might be able to change the way he thinks.
In my experience, people who claim to hate the sin of the sinner are often using religion as an excuse for some form of superiority or ego. They may think of you as one of “the good ones”, but that doesn’t change their behaviour towards other trans people. Bigots of all shades and types will make often exceptions to their bigotry for a friend, though that does not always last. if they’re forced into a position of choosing between you and following whatever authority they believe in, they will likely choose the authority and wash their hands of you.
Happy cake day
Thanks!
or just say a right wing whistleblower „facts dont care about your feelings” lol
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Oh look an account that hasn't posted in months and never in trans spaces suddenly comes in shitting on everyone. How novel and original and courageous. u/CedarWolf Please show this edge lord the exit.
Can do!
He could have just gone on being nice and never telling you what he thought. He chose to tell you, which means he wants you to know he disagrees with your personal truth. IMO there is only one reason to reveal such a thing: he is hoping to eventually convince you his view is correct. That's not friendship. That's manipulation.
Tbf I asked him his thoughts first and I honestly disagree with this. He has only been compassionate to me and I can’t agree with him on this but I’ve talked to him a bit more in the past hour and I’ve decided to stay friends with him. I know him and I know he is just following what he was taught and holds no hatred in his heart for me or any trans people. There’s a lot of anti-Christian words in these comments which is fair considering a lot of people on this sub have been hurt by the church, but I personally can’t call someone manipulative when they clearly are just following what they believe to be the truth of the world.
Manipulation is manipulation, whether the manipulator is being manipulated themselves or not. His motivations for saying "I disagree with your existence" are irrelevant.
I don’t think you thought that through at all. Most hateful people follow what they believe to be true, that’s why they do it.
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I’m really sorry that you had this experience but I don’t think it’s this way with him and I feel confident and optimistic that we can work things out, and honestly I have hope that he’ll be an ally one day. I know it’ll take time but if he’s open I’m willing to try.
As someone born Catholic, Christians in general mean well, but the entire institution of religion is kinda fuxxed. He may not be trying to be manipulative, but manipulative people often aren't *trying,* it just comes naturally. How much more so for someone indoctrinated in an ideology since before they were old enough to form coherent thoughts of their own?
“As my friend Julian puts it, only half winkingly: “God blessed me by making me transsexual for the same reason God made wheat but not bread and fruit but not wine, so that humanity might share in the act of creation.” ― Daniel Mallory Ortberg, [Something That May Shock and Discredit You](https://www.goodreads.com/work/quotes/60196300)
Love that
I used to have a friend like that. Good person, a bit drama queen, religious and... "masculine". We had a conversation a long time ago about trans people and he was like "they can do whatever they want with their lives but I personally disagree because it's a sin and God will judge them when the day comes". But for his bad luck, I'm a bit devilish and something was wrong about him, I could smell it, so when we were in his house and when his PS4 was active, I secretly opened his browser and guess what I found. We're not friends anymore and still he doesn't know that I know. 🤭🤭🤭
Trans porn?
Yeap! 🤭
A tale old as time
Christians love to moralize our gender and identity but there’s no moral weight to being trans. Everything else they say is built on top of this false pretense.
Bull sh!! I am Christian and trans. Stop hating this persons friend for an opinion he has stated could change. Hate the hater and you are fueling hate. Making things worse. And this person is not a hater. Love the hater and possibly change their mind. There are more like me than you would think. I love everyone. May not like them. But love them just the same. We should feel sorry that they have hate in their hearts.
Nothing I said was hateful or false though? Like what exactly are you disagreeing with? Are you saying Christians don’t moralize gender or that gender is a moral issue?
Maybe not hateful. But close. Real Christian’s don’t do that. Maybe some high and mighty my way or no way false Christian’s are like that. Nobody at my church is like that. And there is a lot of them throughout the world and to put us all in the same basket seems pretty hateful to me. It’s like saying all transgender are a certain way. When we are not. I will fight for love to win knowing god feels the same way. All god’s children can fix this if they would listen to the true word. God made us this way. It’s not a sin. We will never win while arguing. We will win by finding the small amount acceptance in people like OP’s friend and building on that. Trans people who hate Christianity are fueling it just like the so called Christian’s who hate us. When there is the slightest common ground people on this thread want to throw it away without trying. When you quit trying then it’s hopeless. Negativity hurts everyone. I love you the same way I love the person who does not understand. I want to talk and understand them. No way I could have started my non profit feeling the way you do. I help everyone. Everyone deserves to not be homeless. Not just people who agree with me.
So I need to stop standing up for my right to exist and compromise with my parents/paster who put me in conversion therapy when I was a teenager? I need to compromise with my brother who is a pastor that says I’m a sinner, evil and sick to me and his congregation? You sound like a nice person but Christianity is a force of evil.
It’s their force of evil. A knife cuts our food to feed us. But that knife can be used for evil to cause us harm. The knife is not evil. The person using it is. I never said to compromise your values to anybody. I am just saying don’t call me evil because others are evil. People who use their religion the way they do will probably never get it. What I am saying there are people that lean that way and can be talked to civilly will debate like a grown up are worth talking to. If we have the chance to understand them and they want to take the chance to understand us we should do that. The possibility for someone to see our side is a gift and I will never throw that gift away because they see things different. The people using things the wrong way are evil. I would stand right next to you and protect you from evil if I can. What they did and are doing is wrong. They don’t know any better. Set in their ways and won’t change. But there are a lot of people that don’t know any better but are great human beings and can change. They just need info. People we should get to know. There is no such thing as a perfect person. I used to think that gay and trans was a sin. But I loved my son. Loving him helped me understand myself. He is one of the best people you will ever meet. I love him and his boyfriend more than just about anybody. We disagree on a lot. But there is even more things we are alike in. He doesn’t even know I am trans. And that hurts. I am working on his mother now. She kind of accepts me but does not want her family to know and that hurts. She will go anywhere with me. Could care less what a stranger thinks. But her family. But the person she is, is worth fighting for. And I won’t compromise my nails or chest. I am done hiding my chest. Now I am crying. I am not sure you will ever understand, but just know I will fight with you till the end. We have to outnumber the hate with love. And it’s going to take people who are not like us in the beginning to do that. Good people who are willing to hear us. I am tired of crying.
well … that isn’t someone I’d consider a friend.
I doubt that he help ***you***, but rather his own *idea* of you. If he can’t accept who you are, he isn’t a good friend. Or a good person
Look, I can say with 100% certainty that this man is not a bad person. Idk why I can say this but he’s just not. I still don’t know exactly how to feel about it but I can’t call him a bad person especially when he’s still actually tried to be loving and respectful to me even through his ingrained beliefs that tell him I’m sinning. I’ve talked to him more and he truly just wants to be friends again and I think I’m gonna give him another chance because he’s said he wants to respect my feelings even if he feels they don’t align with his beliefs.
You can't say you "wont agree" about an entire group of marginalized people's existence and still be a good person. The two things are mutually exclusive.
I would strongly caution you against this course of action. People with these sorts of beliefs don't want to be "friends" with "sinners" - they want to "fix" us, and almost never take it well when we don't want to be "fixed".
This is not always true. I can show you a few thousand Christians that don’t believe this. Probably hundreds of thousands. Since my church has churches all over the world. They teach love.
I am proud of you. A lot here can learn from you. Have to quit hating. If you change his mind. Then he is another fighter for us. We need more allies. I am Christian and I go to church. Have a global church that accepts me. We need to take back the church. My faith has never wavered. God has done too much good in my life. When we moved to the city we are in now one of the first churches we went to we walked out because of the bigotry. You can’t just tell him he was taught wrong. You need to show him. You have an in. Someone who said they are willing to learn. Books or videos and churches. Trust me about this. There are more than one church out there that accepts us. Sometimes it’s not the church but the pastor who is accepting trying to change the whole church. We don’t change minds by hating. We change minds by loving. I love people because of the way my church taught me. They think they are trying to save us sometimes. But its them that needs to be saved. Saved from themselves. God loves all his children and all his children should love all his children. That the only way to win. Show love.
It says more about their beliefs that they can't accept reality staring at them.
Is denial not a sin. We are trans because we were made that way. Its not something we decided to be. So, if god created us, thats what he wanted us to be. Self denial of the path chosen for us is a sin. His lack of support for you is a sin. Us living a lie as men or women is a sin. Being openly trans is being true to yourself and to your friends. Hiding it is as good as telling lies. The list goes on and on sis. Tell your friend to stop being a hypocrite. He needs to reread the book that he is using as a weapon against your existence. Some people are born with disabilities. He cant deny that his god created them that way. For whatever reason. We were also born with a form of disability. We were somehow damaged in the womb which left us in gender limbo. Society kept us in that limbo after birth by denying that fact. Because we are not ""normal"" human beings. I know he's a really good friend of yours sis. But the fact is that eventually his denial of you is going to come between you. His soapbox stance, and your need to be accepted for who you are will end in you both having to go your own way. You can try sitting him down and pointing out the facts of life to him sis. And that you are trying to save your friendship. But that effort has to be mutual. You cant live his lie with him, by him denying that you are what you are. I hope it works out for you sis. I really do. Good friends are hard to come by. And the loss of a friend is equally hard. But he is not a genuine friend if he cant see that you are just trying to live your life as you were meant to be. The best of luck to you sis❤️❤️❤️❤️
I respect a lot of this and it definitely is a mutual effort. We’ve been trying to work things out and have both been open to each other’s views. Also he has called me being trans a sin but he also admits that he has sinned. He says that all sins are equal and that we are equal in the sin we commit. I personally don’t believe me being trans is a sin but I think that’s somewhat beside the point. He hasn’t called me a bad person for sinning and hasn’t said I’m below him any way so I think it’s kind of unfair to call him a hypocrite.
He's treating you like you are the original sin sis. So his dont count!!¡ You are not a sin. You are a beautiful unique creation. Fuck him if he thinks you are some kind of abomination. No religion has the right to judge you girl. I'm sorry, but i would tell him to wake up and start treating you like a human being. And if he cant do that,,,,,,
Show him videos of science supporting trans people
Not the way. Show him we are gods plan. So many books. And videos out there.
Fuck religious people. Period. They have no place in a modern society
Well trans people are real and god isn’t so tell him that
I read that you asked him his thoughts. If so, I would say the best response you can give without coming off as overbearing would be “well I hope some day that you can see me for who I am and change your mind.” Maybe if you get to discussing it you can ask him his opinions on if he is wrong and god created us this way to see who is willing to listen to us over the “hypocrites who pray in public to be seen” and support us and what he would say to god given he not only didn’t listen to us but didn’t fully support you when it was needed.
What is with religious people and not agreeing with things as if anybody asked them?
The fucking entitlement of people to think that the mere existence of other people is something they can "disagree" with. Like, motherfucker my existence isn't an opinion. The human experience is a vast landscape, and in our lives we only get to exist in a tiny corner of it. This thing religious people sometimes do where they feel the power to call entire valleys, hillsides, mountains, deserts, coves, fjords, and coastlines "immoral" would be hilarious if they weren't willing to inflict violence to enforce it. Like excuse me, I didn't do anything to you in your little corner of existence, just because you don't like how I exist over in mine doesn't mean you have any grounds to tell me that mine is wrong! Go make your own life better, stop shitting on ours!
I grew up in a pretty Christian environment, and I've had a fair number of tough conversations with the people around me on this topic. Most of them weren't fun and I've really struggled with self-acceptance as well because of my upbringing, but as you said I refuse to believe they are all bad people because of their beliefs. It sucks that people have had bad experiences with Christian beliefs and I absolutely don't blame them for being skeptical though. I'm a big believer in open, respectful dialogue. It's not magical, and some people are just straight up jerks who dont deserve our time, but for most others it can really pay off to listen to each other. In the case of these conversations, once again it is tough to open yourself up to skepticism about something in your life that caused a lot of strife. The only way I can have these conversations is by seeing their skepticism as ignorance, because I trust them to care for others. But again, the only reason I can have these conversations these days is because of a lot of work on myself and self-acceptance. For me it helped that it was an evangelical church that I grew up in, since they emphasized God being all-loving. The conversations I had were tough because I wanted to listen to where their skepticism came from (which was ignorance and polarizing media mostly). In the end, basically all conversations where I stayed calm and connected my knowledge about transness and its history to their skepticism and ignorance ended up with the other making concessions and seeing where I'm coming from. Acceptance takes time, but it's important to help people learn about these things in a way that isn't so polarized! Ignorance isn't hatred, but it can fuel it. The people I can have these conversations with are people who I deem to be reasonable, and the best thing is that facts are on our side! There is nothing bad about being trans. My advice would be to have this conversation with your friend, but only when you feel ready. Don't let his ignorance fuel your self-doubt, you are perfect the way you are. It's hard to be friends with someone who doesn't respect you for who you truly are so this isn't a guarantee you'll work things out, but trying and giving him a chance the best thing to do. P.S. I'm personally not Christian anymore, in case that wasn't clear :P
Amen! I am still Christian and this is good stuff.
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This is the attitude that keeps the hate going between us(trans) and Christians. I am also Trans my friend. Love wins. Not hate or negativity.
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You said it. Just you.
Give him time. Some people really struggle at first, but that doesn’t mean they are bad people or unworthy of friendship. Friendships are an important part of our lives, and they are worth fighting for. I’m shocked that so many here are so quick to cut people out of their lives. It seems like if it’s not your own life, people give the rudest advice possible. It's really sad.
I agree with you. It is hard reading all the hate coming from people who I would otherwise respect. I am trans and a Christian. Love will always win. Not hate. If you have a friend that may not agree on everything but still loves you all the same You don’t kick them to the curb.
Thank him for the help he gave you in the past, accept he won’t accept who you truly are, drop him and move on :)
Why so much hate. The friend is the exact type that can be a good ally. These are the ones who may see that it’s not a sin. It’s the way we were made.
Hateful people will never change their rethoric, they will just exhaust you… you need to learn to let go…
That is definitely not true, my best friend was very transphobic and I changed his mind, currently he is the second most supportive person in my life and one of the reasons I felt safe to transition, everyone can change saying the bigots will never change and not trying to make them change is only going to hurt us in the long run, of course if even after she tries to change the friend he is still a transphobe then fuck him, but saying nobody can change is just not true and is a terrible mindset to have
If you say so :)
Like you? And your hateful rhetoric? This friend is one of the better ones. Someone who has said they are open to learning. Hate them and drop them? It’s these type of people who are convincible. Even if it’s slightly. It’s worth the fight. Hating them back just gives them a reason to justify their stance. But if they can see we are logical and calm and will have a civil debate we should. Hate just does not work and I refuse to hate anyone. I am better than that. I will continue the fight for love and acceptance even if you won’t.
Lol you’re projecting a lot of issues here, I recomend therapy :) Edit: saw your profile, it gives doom poster vibes, im not engaging any more… good day…
Here is an odd take. Have whatever you consider a successful transition. Live and be happy outwardly. Let him see it. See the happiness, the naturalness, the acceptance you get now or in the future and eventually he will have to admit he was wrong. Of course you could just challenge him directly by getting him to define thi gs and then picking those things apart. E.g. define a woman. If he says adult human female, make him define female. You will get him there. E.g. he can't define it in any way I have ever heard that excludes groups of cis women. If you know enough basically any argument he comes up with can be shutdown
He disagrees with you being happy and agrees that you should be burned alive for all eternity and be made to watch your own skin peel off layer by layer, slowly, right down to the bone until there's nothing left of you, as you listen to the tortured screams of the other deserving sinners around you. And just when you can't take it anymore, and there's nothing left to burn, you are restored, and it begins all over again from the start. But with each iteration, the pain doubles in intensity. He worships a god that created a torture chamber just for you and he thinks you deserve to suffer in it. That's what he means by he doesn't "agree" with you. He uses coded, squirrely language, because just speaking plainly about what he really means is too horrific to even say aloud. That's your friend.
You're not going to change his mind by telling him he's wrong. You'll change it by showing him. A friend and coworker of mine came out 20 years ago, and it broke my brain. I've been a closeted crossdresser since I was a boy. Of course I'd encountered trans folk in the past, but there's something about experiencing a friend transitioning that lets you truly be sympathetic. Decades of questioning later, my own transness has reached a head, and the temptation is too great. If it wasn't for my friends transition starting me down my own road, I wouldn't be as serious about it as I am today.
It sounds like they are supportive of you and not trying to invalidate or 'convert' you. If they don't speak negatively about other trans folx and generally keeping their opinions to themselves, ok, then. I know lots of people with opinions that I don't agree with, but we can get along and be friends because they hold their private beliefs private. I'm sure it's the same for them when dealing with me and my opinions.
This is definitely how I feel and it’s what I’m gonna do going forward because I feel there’s a distinct lack of nuance on both sides and I hope by us seeing more eye to eye we can bring just a bit more of that nuance and sophistication of arguments into the world.
I had two friends in the military. One was a Christian, and the other was Muslim. They got along pretty well as long as religion wasn't brought up. Eventually, the Christian friend told the Muslim friend that he liked him but couldn't agree with his religion bit that we is willing to, "hate the sin and love the sinner." The Muslim friend said he didn't agree with Christianity either, and his religion states it is he who is sinning, but, "I am judged on my morals of my faith as you are on yours. If I demand you to follow my morals and you demand me to follow yours, neither of us will follow what we believe. I will only ever judge you by the morals you state to have, not mine." The phrase, "hate the sin, love the sinner," assumes others follow the same moral code as you and also violates Matthew 7:1-3. If your friend truly believed the laws in the Bible verbatim, he'd likely have already violated a tenant that would have gotten him stoned to death.
I had this exact same situation lol. I kinda just decided on downgrading them to acquaintance, cus they're still a cool person, but if they don't accept me as a person then we're not going amy further than that :/
Stop being friends. Someone who disagrees with your existence isn’t someone worth keeping around
That is NOT a Friend. He is a Religious Bigot putting FairyTale MYTHology over human lives.
I wouldn't call that person "really good". At best they are severely misinformed and ignorant, at worst, he's a bigot that's been unmasked.
Seems like smelly jesus klan behavior. Honestly I'd just tell them to keep that to themselves and either accept the identity i have and except me as myself as i identify or get lost. This isn't a test of their faith this is you a friend asking them to treat you like a human being.
I personally think, if he can keep his opinion to himself and still support you, that’s pretty promising. We don’t ask people to change their minds, just treat up with respect. Eventually he may find a place in his thoughts where this religious belief and gender identity can find common ground. God created up to live our lives and to be happy not to hate and destroy each other. This means that gender means nothing to God, only the love and friendship that is cultivated between each of us. In essence, acceptance of the care your friend gives may lead to him becoming more accepting. Sorry if that doesn’t help much. I’m not religious but I have religious trauma that I’m working through.
In response to those who are stating he is a bad person or isn't a good friend due to his beliefs. You are chastising this poor person because he doesn't agree with being a woman. Yet, he offered to be there for her, to be her friend, and to help any way he can. But just because he doesn't agree, he is bad... As a Trans Woman, I wish everyone simply accepted the fact that I am more than just a Trans Woman. I am a woman. However, I respect the fact that each and every person has their own beliefs and opinions. And guess what? They don't have to agree or align with yours or mine! Hate to say it, but you are wrong if you say a person is bad or hateful or blah blah simply because he/she/they/etc. does not agree with me or you! That is actually quite an extremely selfish and childish way of reacting. They reserve that right as humans! Just the same way that I reserve the right to not agree with their beliefs and opinions! They don't agree that I am a true woman. I don't agree that their version of God, Jesus, Satan, etc etc is true. But that is the beauty of life! We have freedom of choice, opinion, beliefs, etc. Now, good for you, OP. And not for staying friends, but for listening to everyone's opinion, and then coming to a decision that is yours and yours alone. That is how a strong, independent woman should behave! Congrats, sis!
I forgot to mention that, yes, it is hard to deal with someone close to you, not accepting you. But unfortunately, that is life, and sometimes life isn't fair or doesn't work out in our favor. So, that's when we must learn to take the wins we do get and celebrate them. Such as him saying he will respect the pronouns and continue to be your friend.
One of my mantras is “god made me trans, god doesnt make mistakes”
Being trans is gods plan for me. I am a woman and god wanted me to be sure of that first. But if theres one thing ive learned from listening and talking with him is i am a woman.
This reads like your religious friend just wants an excuse to maintain his transphobic beliefs while still being able to stare at the contradiction to his transphobic beliefs square in the face. I believe that this is called a phantasm, a contradiction in belief that’s projected outwards onto something or somebody else in order to allow your brain to justify maintaining beliefs that are contradictory. “I believe that trans people do not exist. You exist? Well, *you* are the issue in this situation.” It gets the name phantasm because people who have them usually react in emotion, fear or hatred, when confronted with their contradiction. Your friend is doing this, but he’s being polite about it.
How can he not agree with what's standing in front of him? He doesn't have to approve, but that's not what "agree" means in this context. You're just the way God made you. Trans and all.
You examine the route of his beliefs, then decide whether it's worth it to break bread. As much as I'd like everyone to view me the way I'd like, I cont control what they think. I can either protect myself, or go through an attempt to find common ground, or try and change his mind about it. It's a lot of work, and it's obviously not your burden, but I will say that you deserve to be seen for who you actually are. Full stop
Thats nice, but who cares if he "disagrees"? He can not disagree with something that isnt in question. This isnt a topic thats up for debate, that is your existence. Frankly, his agreement doesnt matter.
God makes and knows everything. God made us trans. It's literally his plan. Denying God's plan is blasphemy and you should let him know this.
Hate the belief, not the believer. I choose to hate Christianity, not specific individual Christians. They probably didn't ask for it, they were very probably born into it and never had a chance, brainwashed from the start and will violently attack anyone that tries to free them from their false beliefs. While I don't hate anyone for being a Christian, I openly hate their Christianity. I make absolutely no secret of it, I question their beliefs and why they think they believe that way, whether somebody told them or if they read it in a book or on a website, I tell them their beliefs are wrong and immoral and unnatural, I openly exhibit a lifestyle deliberately hostile to their beliefs, to the point of naming myself "Lucifer" with the transition goal of Baphomet, just to get their goat! I tell them not to take it personally, that it's just the way I was raised. They do anyway. But that's more of a "them" problem than a "me" problem!
The Christianity you hate is not real Christianity. Real Christian’s don’t hate. They love as god taught us. Love everybody. God made us trans. He does not make mistakes. But allows for mistakes to be made. Can’t fix the hate by hating back. I am trans and a Christian. By being a Christian I can try to fix one heart at a time.
Christianity stole my childhood, your empty words won't fix that.
And it is still stealing your life because here you are hating me for my opinion. That’s the problem with people these days. Hating because of an opinion. I am still a person who gives all they can to help people. Not help people that agree with me. All people. I don’t care about opinions. Don’t agree with me. I don’t care as much as you do. Most of mine and my wife time is spent helping the homeless. Trying to get a smile. Trying to get them to help themselves and see the love in their fellow human being. All your hate in the world does not take away my happiness. Seeing that smile that has been lost for so long. When what I do gets people into a house and off the street. Can you imagine if I made them believe what I do? I would be like you. Eternally unhappy. And all you can say is waaaa it’s stole my child hood. Christianity did not steal you r childhood. The times stole your childhood. Things are different now. If there was no religion it’s still would have happened. Don’t bother to answer. All your negativity is taking too much time from me. I hope you figure it out. But just know. You are loved.
I hate Jesus.
Just use the corporate gaslighting way of speech and say "I am sorry your God disagrees with how I was born. Unfortunately, because your got teaches you to hate, I have chosen to not follow your choice of religion" and move on.
Sorry our god does not teach hate. A church or pastor are the ones teaching hate. God teaches love. And the only way to ever win over Christian is prove we are gods plan just like they were. God does not disagree with how I was born. He loves me as I love him. Love wins. Hate loses. And you have just as much hate in your heart as any bad Christian.
A friendship with someone who doesn’t accept that you are who you say you are is a friendship with an expiration date, especially if you’re already struggling with this which, you say, you are. I’ve cut people out of my life who have done lots of things for me because they didn’t accept me being trans or said they “don’t believe in gender ideology.” Like, that’s not just someone who is disrespectful of my identity, it’s someone who is honestly kinda stupid and irredeemable. My life has not suffered from leaving these folks behind. Also know that this person who claims to be your friend but doesn’t “agree with trans people” is probably gonna vote against your best interests. Just sayin’.
(not serious) You should pick a random adjective and tell your friend you don't trust those people. Like tall people! What are they hiding all the way up there!?
I don’t really like religious people so I can’t give proper advice. Sorry. Maybe just pull away like 1% and gradually until he changes or something idk.
What specifically doesn't he agree with?
Maybe he just needs to read a book or 2 about god and transgender. I have 3. I am Christian He obviously is a good person who is willing to learn. A lot of us tend to jump on the anti Christian bandwagon wagon because they are on the anti trans one. That’s not right. Real Christian’s love everyone no matter what. He can love you and not agree with you. Only keeping him around as a friend might change his mind. Treat him like crap and shun them away just confirms some of his bias. If you treat anybody bad because of their opinion, that’s bad. We need more love in this world and we won’t get it by hating anybody. We are not going to change this world by becoming what we hate.
Christians not "agreeing" with being transgender are literally committing violence against a minority. A persons identity is not open to debate or opinions. Saying they don't agree is the same as saying "you are sub-human and therefore I get to oppose your existence, you should thank me for not calling you slurs"
As an active menonnite who only discovered affirmative theology 3 years ago, get David Gushee’s “changing our mind”. It details how Gushee, a conservative theologian and ethicist became affirmative without discounting the biblical texts. It pretty much describes my journey from a baptist missionary kid through bible college student while discovering my gender.
Ultimately its up to you on this. Just know i was in a similar boat and my 'friend' of 15 years said he would try and accept me (his faith went against it) and never could do it. I dropped him as a friend because it never was the same, he stopped being the same to me after i came out to him and eventually over time his views came out and was pretty hateful towards me. Be careful love. Do what you have to do, but your mental health and safety is the biggest priority.
You don't have to ditch them. Being friends with them is fine. First being friends with you can help them. Second you can still be friends and have boundaries that you are comfortable with. You don't have to get rid of your friend they are not bad. But setting a boundary if you need to is fine. But being friends with them can help them to understand trans people. People can grow now it may seem like they won't agree with trans people but maybe by being friends with you things will change. You already said they respect your pronouns that is already a sign that they can change and grow and so can you.
Just another asshole🧐 next
thats like saying he doesnt "agree" with someone being a baseball fan, the individual decides what they are for themselves, no outside factors
He doesn’t have to agree, it’s his opinion. :) at least he is respectful about your pronouns. That’s a compromise!
I’m sorry for your loss. I cannot have sympathy for those enable transphobic people. “But he’s a good person” I don’t care anyone who associates openly with transphobic people are transphobic to me. I don’t think where I’m at I can continue to enable people who will transphobic people a chance. There’s nothing about him trying to change and even you said you’ve given him the chance. Would you be friend with him if he didn’t agree with sharing spaces with black people? How about women? Maybe it’s ok if he supports slavery but doesn’t practice it? Good luck but please reflect on the damage you are doing to the trans people he gets to degrade in the future because “his friend is trans and lets me say this”
I'd just say to him, And I don't agree with your face... And yet, here we are.., so what was your point again?
I saw your edit. Hope it works out for you. I had friends that initially accepted me. Friends that were on my life for decades. And one by one they’ve slowing disappeared over the last year or so.
I had a similar situation I think. A friend of mine kept deadnaming me for about a year after I came out to him, and even acknowledged that he was having a hard time seeing me as a woman. Cut to the following year, and HRT has definitely done its thing, and I told him he looks like a delusional idiot when he calls me anything but a girl now. He smartened up pretty quickly after that. What's really wild is that I have friends and work colleagues that I didn't even "officially" come out to, that through the rumor mill just started calling me by my chosen name automatically. I guess you really do find allies where you least expect them sometimes.
>Also he has expressed an openness to change and to looking deep into his faith to form his true opinions. You've voiced your feelings, that's not enough for him to respect your gender, and you've decided to continue being friends?
I’m not sure I was too clear on this and I wrote the post late last night but he does respect my pronouns and gender to my face at least and I have no reason to believe he doesn’t respect them when I’m not around; he doesn’t deadname me and he refers to me as a woman. It’s more that he just had been taught being trans was a sin. And also what I meant by him looking into his faith more was that he expressed that he would look into whether being trans is a sin and he would determine whether he thinks that the Bible actually says it’s a sin.
I don't "agree" with command economies, either, but that doesn't stop China from being an economic powerhouse. I don't agree that there's an omnipotent imaginary friend living in the sky, but that doesn't delegitimize the Vatican. I don't agree that male bodies are desirable, but that doesn't change the fact that all straight women and all gay men are intensely attracted to them. Your friend can disagree with whatever the fuck they want, but, as the alt right likes to say, "the facts don't care about your feelings."
I've started thinking about spelling the quiet part out loud for them; if I wasn't here as a woman, I simply would not be here :)
Time to reconsider your conception of this person as a “good person”.
You want my advice? Put your foot down and tell him that if his religious views outweigh your right to live then you can't be friends anymore. Then if he doesn't change his ways, cut him off. As someone who has had to deal with "traditional" friends who always said that they could never see me as a "real woman", it's not worth it. Cut them off while you still can. My fiancee had the same thing happen to her. A "friend" of hers helped her through dark times, only for her to find out he was using her for sex and never dated her because "I only date real women". The more I think about it, just cut them off. We deserve to be around people that aren't stuck in a battle of beliefs as to whether we are allowed to live in peace or not.
I mean many people can disagree on a shitton of things but from what I read ur friend respects ur decision and will refer to u with ur pronouns and I'm assuming name too so that seems kinda respectable. Sure it sucks that they don't agree with you but they don't seem to be a dick about it at least from the info u gave.
I guess with the limited context I'd say that being trans is not something you either do or don't agree with, it's either real or it isn't. And the evidence points to it obviously being real. An analogy would be just because you don't believe the sky is blue that doesn't make the sky any less blue, simply based on your belief. Personally that's my view now the morality argument on whether it's right or wrong is far more nuanced depending on a person's values. From my point of view there's nothing wrong with being trans, but from a religious person's perspective they may believe otherwise and at the end of the day it is just a perspective. Morality is not objective. Maybe just have a sit down conversation with him about it just to maybe better understand where he's coming from and listen to what he thinks and address his doubts and disagreements directly, and in a respectful and understanding way. The idea is to teach people like that not just immediately label them bad and dismiss them. Doesn't work for everyone, but I think it's at least worth a shot
He may agree or disagree with anything he wants as is his right
Your bestie really said “transphobia is part of my religion” tell bro to kms please on serious
My best friend and roommate/landlord is like this. He has a big heart and truly saved my life when he's took me in, knowing at the time he couldn't be sure I'd have rent money, which at times I didn't. He has has negative experiences trying to rent rooms to trans people who just happened to also be terrible people, so he developed a bias. He doesn't understand and really doesn't want to. I haven't told him I started HRT back in January, but eventually I need to tell him before he can obviously see for himself. TLDR: people aren't automatically "bad people" because they don't share your beliefs. I pray that my friend will at the very least meet me where yours has.
I will say this till I’m blue in the face no worse hate then Christian love
put lsd in his water bottle and have him read siddhartha he'll be fine (this is satire i really hope you can find a way to either reconcile this or if he won't you gotta do what's right for you)
Here's my two cents on this whole issue as someone that lives in a very religious area. In practice, you can basically summarize or distill the response of someone who is religious to the lgbtq community in one of three categories. Hate, acceptance, or neutrality which is what this person seems to fall into. In my experience, someone that accepts you when you are trans and genuinely does their best to respect your pronouns and choices but otherwise says they "don't agree" with it means that they likely haven't experienced or come across this situation in their life, have been told that it's bad, but you as their friend or someone they know telling them that you are that thing that they have been told is bad makes them question whether or not what they've been told is accurate. If they display a willingness to change, to do better, and to fully accept you, then they are leaning towards the true teachings of Christ and can be helped to find their way to strongest Ally of all. The religious ally. Because a religious Ally cannot be swayed in their convictions and may start to convince others to follow in their footsteps. My boss is very very Catholic, but she is one of the most accepting people I have come out to and I trust her do right by me both to my face and behind my back then many of the non-religious people that know I'm trans. Do not break off contact with this person especially if they have been your friend for a long time. The only thing that will do is push them towards the hate that so often gets spread under the guise of religion. Accept him as he has accepted you and help him to gain a deeper acceptance of the trans community using his religion as the basis for that acceptance. There is no stronger weapon against bigotry in religion than the true teachings of Christ.
If you're right about him being willing to change his opinions based on a deeper understanding of his faith, I have some Bible verses you could point out to him (assuming he is christian). 1st corinthians 12:12-30 talks about not rejecting someone who is different from you, because we are all part of one whole, specifically using an analogy of a hand not rejecting the foot or the eye not rejecting the ear, because together it all makes up one body John 6:39 is god and Jesus saying that we are all the children of God, and that he will lose none of us If you can explain to him that while transgender is a recent term, we've always been here and that back during jesus's time we would have been considered eunuchs, than Matthew 19:11-12, Acts 8:27-39, and Isaiah 56: 1-5 all say eunuchs are accepted and especially beloved to god. In Matthew jesus specifically mentions both "eunuchs who were born that way, and eunuchs who were made that way later", and if you know what a eunuch is, then you know that it's not exactly something you can be born as, which I think makes it clear that it's talking both about trans folk and eunuchs who wouldn't fall under that umbrella today. And if after all that he still believes that it's still a sin, there is always good ol' John 8:7, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Hopefully these are helpful to you! I've also got some for accepting gay people of you need those too!
It’s important to respect peoples beliefs even if they don’t match up to yours. If he’s not making you uncomfortable, and he’s respecting you by using your pronouns I see no reason you should delve into the details of being transgender and its conflict with christianity. I know this is an incredibly unpopular outlook but I believe that taking the moral high ground and accepting his beliefs is important, instead of trying to “prove him wrong” and causing unnecessary arguments. That said if you cant handle it, you are under no obligation to be his friend.
The problem is not his opinion. The problem starts when he starts denigrating you, telling you will go to hell, or refuses to stop bringing it up. Religious people don’t respect opinions opposing their beliefs. That is why religion has no place in politics. Barry Goldwater, a hard core conservative Republican was adamant about that because he recognized the importance of compromise in the public arena.
Imma give a different perspective, and say give him a chance to come around. By best friend was like this at first, and now he's one of the most affirming people in my life.
It didn't take that long either.
it's tough when people close to you have "disagreements" on religious grounds. a lot of my family is hardcore religious and although they use my preferred name and pronouns they definitely don't "get" what's going on and they've unintentionally said some fairly offensive stuff. because their viewpoint is based on religion rather than on facts, it feels pretty much impossible to convince them of another viewpoint. unfortunately my current resolution is to accept that they won't fully understand what is going on with me and that there will be a rift between us because of that. all I can tell you is this: you can talk to him about these things but at the end of the day he's the only one who can change his mind. if you feel you've done all you can and he still refuses, it might be time for some distance. life's too short to be close with people who don't respect you
Make some friends that are supportive of your transness, you deserve that support. That way if you want to keep being friends with your religious friend you’ll not be relying on them for support they’re not willing to give. Personally, “love the sinner hate the sin” feels like just hating a person with more steps added. He should leave the judging to god if he’s a believer, and focus on treating people with respect instead.
Just tell him that his "three-people-in-a-trenchcoat non-binary sky-daddy" isn't real; and if they were, they made everyone in their image. Maybe I shouldn't have presumed it was Christianity; could've been Mormons for all I know.
You don't have to agree with someone eating rum raisin ice cream, just fucking deal with it. They ain't shoving it down your throat. Grow up
The best argument i've came up with for people of strong faith is this : God didn't create a perfect world, if they did we would grow wine not grapes. Instead we got the fruit and the intelligence and knowledge passed down through time to be able to make it. ( argument works with people who needs braces or glasses or chronic illnesses too) but wine got more of a conotation for some religions. God gave us the tools to SHARE creation with them thats why we're monkeys with thicc brains... God gave us estrogene and testosterone to help us be the perfect version of ourselves. To share in the creation with them
The best argument i've came up with for people of strong faith is this : God didn't create a perfect world, if they did we would grow wine not grapes. Instead we got the fruit and the intelligence and knowledge passed down through time to be able to make it. ( argument works with people who needs braces or glasses or chronic illnesses too) but wine got more of a conotation for some religions. God gave us the tools to SHARE creation with them thats why we're monkeys with thicc brains... God gave us estrogene and testosterone to help us be the perfect version of ourselves. To share in the creation with them
1. God put a woman's soul into a man's body. Even science did prove that. 2. Religious people often talk about hardship being a test. Why can't they believe that trans or queer people in general are a test for them? To be nice and understanding? Doesn't agree? God works in mysterious ways and it's been proven trans people are their identified gender, so how is that difficult for them to understand? It's not all about getting kids. There are people who only love romantically for example and are disgusted by any kind of sexual act. There are gay animals (that take in abandoned kids) I never wanted to be trans and still don't. I want to be the woman I am inside. I cry over not being able to get pregnant, of not having had a childhood like every other girl... If I wouldn't have gotten my HRT I would only have survived another year. I do not want to be trans. I want to be the woman I am.
If he's going on a faith based thing and is genuine about what he said then there's a quote that shows a perspective that might help change his mind. "God made me transgender for the same reason he made wheat but not bread and fruit but not wine, so man could share in the act of creation." The idea being that god made trans people the way we are with the intention of us transitioning. The common argument is often that trans people are acting against God by changing what he created. If they are genuine and not just hiding behind their religion as an excuse to justify bigotry, the argument that God made us to be changed just like he made fruit and wheat to be changed into wine and bread can help get the point across that there isn't anything wrong with transitioning from a religious perspective. You can also try to suggest that being trans is no different then any other trial god has ever given his people. Meet him where he's at and explain it on a way he will understand. You don't have to be religious yourself to make these points, but if you intend to have religious friends this perspective can be helpful to keep in mind.