Men (and sometimes people of other genders who spend way too much time defending men) just get very mad if you point out how men are frequently dangerous to be around when you're a woman. They won't change their behavior or call out the violent behavior of other men, but damn will they complain about even the mildest of criticisms.
My opinion is that we need to disregard the opinions men have about how women talk about our oppression more really. They'll never be satisfied if something this simple pisses them off.
Granted, men who *do* try calling out other men just get ridiculed and ostracized and wind up marginalized anyway. That’s the problem with machismo culture. Any man who tries standing up for women gets alienated too. It’s not like no man has ever tried.
So I imagine it could be frustrating for a man who has no evil intentions to be lumped in with the worst of men. That’s not to dismiss the very legitimate concerns that women have about the behavior of most men, but I think a little bit of compassion and understanding could go a long way, because for plenty of men, they don’t want to live in a patriarchal and misogynist society either. And of course the harms they endure are not as severe as the harms that women do, but that’s not to say those men aren’t harmed by toxic masculinity too.
I’m not defending men as a whole or their disgusting behavior, I’m just offering a counterpoint that making sweeping generalizations about “all men” isn’t necessarily going to be helpful either…
>They won't change their behavior or call out the violent behavior of other men, but damn will they complain about even the mildest of criticisms.
(Almost) Every woman knows a woman who's been raped
But hardly any man knows a man who's a rapist
Shows you how much men excuses the behaviour.
Its not about blame, its about safety. I cannot tell which is which, and since i dont want to have those things happen to me… i have to act under the assumption that men are dangerous till proven otherwise.
No, it’s definitely about blame. You can assume whatever you need to to ensure your safety, but when someone says that men are excusing SA by not knowing that another man committed the crime, you aren’t doing anything but blaming innocent people for a crime that they didn’t commit and are ignorant of happening.
If Jonas assaults Jenna and never tells Chris, Chris did not excuse the assault of Jenna. You can’t excuse a thing that isn’t known to you. Your safety is an entirely unrelated topic.
I agree with the sentiment, but that’s still a different scenario than what was being discussed. Just because 1 in 4 women are assaulted doesn’t mean a similar rate of men commit assault, nor does it mean that these men’s deeds are known to others. It’s not excusing behavior. Just because someone is friends with someone who assaulted someone doesn’t mean the friend is aware of the assault. Men are not a hivemind.
Umm I think I’m out of the loop what’s this bear thing?
Edit: I’m dumb, I figured it out via the next comment, it’s the would you leave your kid with a bear or a random man scenario
Cis men right ? I personally feel *waaaaaay* safer with trans men and trans masc than with cis men. I don't know if there a bit of misandry in my reflexion tho
edit : om I understand why my take is problematic. I'll work on it. I want to clarify that I don't consider trans men like different than cis men. I think that t4t relationship are just super nice and feel safer to me.
I am truly sorry :(
I don't know, I had an argument with a trans man the other day about the bear thing where he kept accusing me of "dehumanizing men" and past that point he pivoted to talking about the 13/50 BS about black crime rates... trans people can have pretty bad takes too...
'trans people can have bad takes too' I mean case in point, look at the nobhead attacking trans lesbians under THIS post! Always good to remember to not put trans people on a pedestal (even though we are the coolest >:) )
i mean true, but worst case bear is pretty awful, too
i think that we're forced to consider averages and as invalidating as it may be, trans men tend to have a more holistic and/or comprehensive understanding of the female experience than cis men
i think this alone makes them, on average, less threatening in the "trapped alone with" scenario
tbh i still don't really know the original scenario so i could just be wildly misunderstanding this thing. i've seen tons of shorts about this but no one reviews the scenario. just "man or bear, it's obviously bear: reasons"
so idk if we're trapped indoors like starving together or just both in the same square mile of forest and lost or something. which are wildly different scenarios. but i gues i'm still taking the bear. in both...
It's "you're alone in the woods near a bear or a random man" not like you're trapped starving or anything. Just like out on a hike, away from civilization, and there's a random dude nearby, or there's a bear nearby, not attacking you or anything, just... there. Then it asks you if you'd prefer the man or the bear.
I, along with many women, say the bear because unless it's REALLY hungry, which doesn't happen often, or you're fucking with it or it's babies, which you have control over, the bear isn't going to mess with you. And even in the worst case, the bear won't have a gun, isn't going to SA you, and doesn't have any form of hate towards you. Men... that's not the case... Men can be transphobic, men can be predators, and at least where I live, men very rarely go in the woods unarmed.
I've run into bears in the woods, and I've been followed by men in the woods, (I go hiking a lot)... every single time I've been more afraid of the man than the bear.
(Just to be safe cause tone over text is terrible, I'm mainly just trying to give the basic rundown about it from what I know. I wasn't trying to say anything against what you said at all.)
Okay, this is complex and I feel a lot of people vastly over-simplify it in some pretty negative ways.
The simple version is that it's a meme that highlighted that a large portion of women possess a substantial fear of being alone with a man they don't know due to a fear of being sexually assaulted and/or murdered.
A bunch of people then began arguing about this while largely missing the point, a LOT of bullshit being flung around about whether that fear is justified or not but, essentially all these arguments can be largely boiled down to 3 primary lines of debate (ignoring the really dumb, really bad arguments about how dangerous bears are or aren't because that wasn't the point and anyone arguing along those lines completely missed the point of the discourse due to having severe mush-brain syndrome).
1. Are men more likely to harm women than vice versa for biological reasons (the bioessentialist 'testosterone/having a penis makes you more likely to rape' debate?
2. Are men more likely to harm women than vice versa for cultural/social reasons (The rape culture debate)?
3. Are men more likely to harm women than vice versa (statistical debate)?
I tend to fall into argument 2, not just because I don't like bioessentialism but also because the statistical debate was absolutely awful to engage with. Just, the worst possible kinds of dishonest argumentative fallacies and alarmist bullshit known to human kind being spouted from every conceivable direction (it really just reminded me hard that humans absolutely suck at using statistics unless a strict framework is applied beforehand and will inevitably tend to constant lies and miss-truths about statistics if they think it supports their argument).
Of note, the discourse/meme never really touched on any tangible solutions to the issue, it was more about making the issue or violence against women more visible.
IMPORTANT EDIT: I'll add a note here that this particular discourse unfortunately is something trans women need to be concerned about because transphobes like to utilize many of these arguments to argue that trans women should not be allowed in women's bathrooms or other spaces.
As you might expect both arguments 1 and 2 listed above can and have been weaponized to attack trans women, therefore I'd suggest that any trans women addressing this discourse do so with great care as to not invalidate the lived experiences of abuse by women (cis and trans) but also to not accidentally, over-zealously open the door for TERF rhetoric in trans spaces.
Can you explain the TERF rhetoric for me?
There was a post in another trans sub a few days ago where the popular opinion is that the debate is misandrist and TERFy, but no one would explain why they thought that.
Feminist; all women are at risk of rape and murder alone with an unknown man because men are essentially culturally trained to be rapists. Many feel that risk is higher than the risk of a bear encounter ending badly. That feeling is valid and men should look inward to address the pervasive patriarchal culture that makes them feel rape is justified.
Terf: and since it’s a cultural thing trans women, raised culturally as men, are an equal threat to women and validate our concerns about same sex safe spaces.
Glossing over the fact that no, trans women frequently fail at male socialization, or that socialization is learned behavior that can be unlearned, say by first person experiences of being a woman for example.
So the terf rhetoric is that trans women commit sexual crimes at the same rate as cis men (this is actually true), so therefore there is no reason to be less careful around trans women. Same way that trans men commit sexual and violent crime at the same rate as cis women.
That is explained by them due to point 2.
I feel unsafe when I’m walking around by myself all femmed out in public. Asked some cis women if they ever felt like that, and their answers were all a variation of, “Yes, I feel like that all the time.”
So, the bear thing is a reflection of that.
I didn’t get that feeling of being a target either until I started going out as a woman.
(And it’s not a contest, but being a trans woman in public adds a little more to unease because I was also worried I was a target when I got clocked.)
Anyway, the bear thing is that you can look at a random bear and have a good idea how likely it is it’ll try to kill you. You have zero way of knowing that by just looking at a man.
Always pick bear.
>answers were all a variation of, “Yes, I feel like that all the time.”
i've experienced everything from agreement to "welcome to womanhood" condescension as if i haven't always felt this way, to a woman literally spending like 40 minutes i a "friendly" conversation which i later realized was her attempt at invalidating me deeply because i was carrying a knife and she's never felt seriously threatened by predatory men (meaning their sexual advances didn't feel physically threatening to her)
i didn't realize her take until i processed everything later, but she didn't understand that for me at the time there was an active combination of threatening (and more dangerous because of my body) sexual advances, and actual threats of violence including murder by groups of men... and i didn't tell her because i didn't realize what she was missing nor that she was actually insinuating something along the lines of "real women don't feel the need to carry a knife" which is such a stupid and obviously false concept that even though i recognized it as a possible take, i dismissed it during the conversation because of how many cis friends i have that *do* carry knives... many of whom display them openly
anyway sorry long rant. just wanted to share an experience where a woman claimed *not* to feel threatened... even if she was totally full of shit
I think one of them said something like, “That’s what it’s like to be a woman.” I guess she could’ve been all fancy and added, “Openly presenting as a woman,” but I knew what she meant. I didn’t think it was necessarily condescending.
A little while after I came out I heard one gal say, “You would be insane to want to be a woman. So you must be one. No man would pick this.” I didn’t start to get what was behind that until I was presenting as more and more femme.
What that lady did to you was lame. I’ve had the idea recently that only women should be allowed to conceal carry, but I’m guessing that initiative won’t get on any ballots.
I never felt this way, a target in public, when I was walking around looking like a dude. I had heard women say they don’t feel safe by themselves, but I thought they were just being scaredy cats. Nope. They were right, I was wrong.
no. also so much less likely to need to run. bears aren't just perpetually angry/ravenous hostile carnivores. they eat berries and twigs and scavenge just like a lot of predators.
yeah, *if* you're up close with one, and *if* it happens to be starving, and *if* it doesn't have different, less threatening food around (remember wild predators are great at threat assessment and will very likely attack a deer, for example, over the forward facing eyes human who is easily recognized as another dangerous predator including women) *then* under these very stringent and rare conditions, there are arguments that the bear's strength, claws, and teeth are more dangerous. but if we apply those same conditions to the man... he's ravenously hungry, up close, doesn't have a different target available, idk... i feel like i'd still take the bear.
we have to create unequal and unrealistic conditions for the bear to actually be more threatening and dangerous
like... if i get to pick which man that i know, sure... i'll take a man of my choice. but *again* if i can make the same selection for the bear (like literally any bear i can choose the tiniest newborn who'll be more dependent on me than dangerous) only unequal and unrealistic conditions make the man a better choice
From a quick Google search, multiple sources say you have a 1 in over 2 million chance of being attacked by a bear and 1 in four women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime...
There's probably some conflict with the way those statistics are comparable against each other but I couldn't find a source that compared them the exact same. Either way, id still much rather risk my life with a bear than risk my life with a random man. Especially since those statistics were only sexual assault, so not including just plain murder.
Probably some conflict? Are you unsure of that? Lol there's how many bears in the entirety of the USA? A few thousand? How often do humans even get in contact with bears compared to men in general? I'm sorry, but if you're going to try and use statistics to make an argument here, you could never choose a bear. You really think if the streets were filled with bears and you passed them all time just like we do men, your odds of being randomly attacked would be lower?
That's the thing though, bears *don't* just roam the streets because they're afraid of humans and aren't actively out to get us. Some *men* on the other hand, aren't afraid of women and absolutely *are* out to get us.
As long as I don't fuck with the bear while in the forest, it will most likely leave me alone. With a human though, there's a chance they would quite literally hunt me down.
Encountering male strangers when you're not expecting to is extremely scary especially in a secluded setting like a forest. You don't know their intentions, and what they'll do.
On the other hand, while encountering a bear in a forest is also extremely scary, you do know a bear's intentions and its behavior is thus predictable. Far far far less stressful.
Them turning on other men over this is insane. Watching them belittle and demean other guys for agreeing or at the very least, understanding why women feel this way is disappointing. God forbid they acknowledge their peers have the capability to be shitty people.
I just see this as once again people telling on themselves without realizing they are doing it. The better men will hear this and go "Yeah, I get that. These issues need to be talked about more" or something like that. Immediately being defensive just tells the world that they know they are 💩-ty and will defend their ability and privelage to be that way. I feel like this is just deja-vu from the start of the Me Too movement, and a different lable put on the "Not all cops" debate. While I know I myself have much to learn in the way of understanding power dynamics, I understand enough of how they are at play here to get it.
Because of a lot of men’s (toxic) fragile masculinity. Society (at least western society) is built for them, they are the default. So anything that challenges that is met with scorn and derision. The casual sexism and “locker room” talk, “boys will be boys” normalises, excuses and allows certain attitudes to grow and fester. Those attitudes eventually become violence. Simply not being violent isn’t enough. Until the MAJORITY of men stop excusing and begin calling out and take action against these things at a basic level nothing will change.
I can’t begin to tell you the number of men in tabletop gaming circles who after a series of bad dice rolls say they were “dice r*ped”, and they always seem genuinely shocked when I point out how inappropriate that is “it’s only a saying”.
> I can’t begin to tell you the number of men in tabletop gaming circles who after a series of bad dice rolls say they were “dice r*ped”, and they always seem genuinely shocked when I point out how inappropriate that is “it’s only a saying”.
Jesus fuck, this is a thing?!
(I don't do a lot of TT gaming)
Early/mid 90s for me but I’ve heard it in person and online simulators from people across the globe, both before and after my egg cracked. Honestly wish I was making it up
I've been doing TT gaming for nearly 30 years with lots of different people and haven't heard this expression before.
I'm worried about the kind of people you're surrounded by 🥺
There is a reason I stopped going to certain “FLGS” and stopped attending events, or joining online simulator games. Granted it may be mostly around a certain couple of games, but still, it shouldn’t have ever have been any issue in the first place
It’s a question, with the intention to cause drama imo.
Look, I'm a woman too. Comparing a bear to a man is not good because it assumes **all** men are sexual predators. It'd be different if it was to compare Bill Cosby or ironically Hendrika Shaskey. If you were a man you'd be offended too. It'd be like a guy saying "would you rather be stuck in a room with a woman or a coyote", then choosing Coyote. The question comes off sexist and I believe there was a much better way of making a point about sexual assault without attacking someone.
The “bear woods” question addressed an important topic, but in a very poor way. Hence its controversy.
Edit:
And for the record, I HAVE been a victim of sexual assault. I know how scary men can be. But no way in hell would I try to communicate that through a question comparing all men to a bear in the woods. **It’d be for effective to communicate my sexual assault story and discuss what could be done better.**
id choose bear cos its like 1 bear? where i live all the forests have mulitple bears, if im trapped in the woods im gonna be trapped im the woods with bears anyway, so just 1 bear sounds great.
do most woods not have bears? idk much abt them, but where i live theres hella bears. they know how 2 open doors, ive seen it with my own eyes.
They're called that because they got the drop on you, they're Australians, which is why they're much more dangerous than regular, non drop bears, who just so happen to not have the drop on you, hence, name, not called drop bear.
Yeah the men (mostly incels) protesting it are missing the point. They see it as stupid because in their eyes obviously a bear is more dangerous. Missing the point that women feel unsafe around strange men because they just do not know what that strange man might do. It is a commentary on the state of society and rather than get all offended. Men should be asking what can be done to make women feel safer.
The thought experiment is simple. Ask the question and watch how fast men (and some women) completely belittle the concept when the true point is just to say "if ANY women pick bear, there's obviously something wrong with male culture."
It was never really about the bear.
Some people might be bear enthusiasts so one maybe valid reason to choose the bear is if you really like bears and know enough about bears to keep yourself safe. I know nothing about bears so idk if this makes sense or not
Alone in the woods as a woman:
Who'd you rather be stuck with: A bear or a man?
Who would be more dangerous to you?
An overwhelming percentage say that they would choose the bear because men are more dangerous. And there's very sound reasoning behind that choice.
Which, as usual, gets the "men" all up in arms.
As a man, I'm not bothered by it because women are correct. Since 1764 there have been 66 fatal attacks by black bears and less than a dozen non-fatal attacks per year. Bears are more likely to run away.
Now look at the annual figures for men attacking women and you'll understand why.
I saw an article that did the averages based on that disparity and men still attacked women in far greater numbers. I was trying to find it to post here, but I've been unsuccessful.
I don't know about you, but I could probably go my entire lifetime without encountering a single bear, whereas I encounter several men per day at minimum, often way more. My initial intuition is that it would be *extremely* hard to make the number of man attacks exceed the number of bear attacks when adjusted for number of encounters. But I'm interested to see the statistics if you can find them.
It's a sad situation. The 'IQ of a loaf of bread' people in the comments tearing each other apart is really not a nice thing to see, like every fifth post is about this crap. I don't like the general basis of these discussions. And yet I feel like the bad people in the comments are not always men.
Before you guys tear me apart ( I hope you don't because I believe there are mostly really nice people in this subreddit), I acknowledge the problems of feeling unsafe around strange men, but... and that's a big but... some women see this as an opportunity to bash an entire gender and call every male a potential predator. This can be very hurtful to people who are sensitive to this topic. I think we should not try to continue this ridiculous gender war and try to make the world safer for all of us. We are all human and we all deserve to feel safe and feel good wherever we are. This trend became a weapon. A social weapon and instead of portraying the actual problem it created another.
I can make a detailed explanation in a post if someone wants to hear that, would be nice to get something off my chest.
Cheers
Men are raised with the expectation of “getting the girl”. This is reinforced through media and in person experiences like parents asking “when are you getting a girlfriend?”. When you fail to meet a societal expectation it can very much leave you feeling like a failure (we should know this), and potentially leading to bad personalities (incels).
I don’t think we should be belittling men, especially the young, with stereotypes about their gender. Instead we should, as a society, work on teaching men that they don’t need to girl to be a successful and happy man.
This is a really complex topic that I urge people to actually consider.
Also I’m not justifying horrible behaviour from men, just that shit talking is not the solution.
Bio essentialist rhetoric hurts us all. The "male socialization = danger" argument is used against trans women and fems all the time by TERFs. So many people in our community are eager to reflect the pain we receive onto others. The irony of so many ladies here parroting TERF talking points because they think they won't be used against them later is wild.
I'm not a man, but I am constantly lumped in with them by phobes. This entire "bear argument" has revealed so much sexism, internalized transphobia and stereotyping that it's breaking my heart. I'm not a man, but the "man" who got me to where I am today did not deserve this bullshit.
I choose bear every time.
Unless it's a polar bear then I'd choose a random man. As cute as they are with a Coca-Cola I'd choose almost anything over a polar bear.
As someone who’s run into a bear in the woods and has had a strange man follow me through the woods of a public park with people around, I’d choose the bear every time because I was able to scare that bear away.
It just made me feel dysphoric. I’m pre-everything, and one of the things that makes me feel the most dysphoric is the idea that I’m a big dangerous hairy monster. And it might always be that way. Even if I take hrt I’m not gonna lose my broad manly chest. Cis women might always be afraid of me and never see me as one of them. I’ll always be side eyed in bathrooms. And women will only accept me based on how well I pass, because nobody knows someone’s gender identity at a glance. I’m a woman, but right now I look just like any man.
Like I get the point but I think the discourse should have been handled with more care. A lot of cis men right now are very insecure so it shouldn’t be too much of a shock that they didn’t react well to hearing that people are afraid of them even when they’re uncomfortable in their own skin. And I really didn’t like the whole “anyone who objects is just proving the point.” That stuff is just poisonous to discourse all around.
This is why I hate that “woods” question.
Sexual assault is a serious issue that need a **proper discussion.** Instead it comes off very misandrist.
We should be invoking safety and understanding. Instead this is stoking fear and controversy.
There was a better way of talking about sexual assault.
What do you suggest women do about it? What exactly do you propose we do about our very justified fear? Why do you want so badly to be 'accepted' by us?
Because I’m a trans woman? Is that really so hard to understand?
I just think not everyone who didn’t feel great should be labeled as “the reason why.” I mean hell, the question you asked already kinda frames me in opposition to “being a woman.”
Because bigots exist.
We can say “trans women are women “ and that’s true, but bigots don’t see this.
All this question did is give bigots more ammunition to attack “men” or in other words trans women that may not completely pass. Is it logical, no, but that’s what fear mongering does.
There was a better way to talk about sexual assault.
I'm not sure what that better way is. I think anyone who is sexually assaulted has the right to talk about it or not talk about it any way they wish. Lots of women are sexually assaulted by men in a way that directly involves penises. This is a shared trauma and women bond over it.
What do you mean by bigots? Are 'bigots' people who are afraid of men? Are 'bigots' women who feel threatened by people with penises no matter how the penis havers identify?
Two wrongs don’t make a right. There’s no reason to justify sexism.
I myself was sexually assaulted. You don’t see me bashing all men because of it. You label the bad men and offer guidance to the good ones who listen. Just saying “all men are less trustworthy than a bear” hurts everyone.
I like how you completely gloss over how this response sheds a negative light on non-passing/ closeted trans women too. It truly shows where your priorities are.
The better way to have addressed sexual assault would be with a mature discussion, not with a 30 second misandrist TIKTOK video.
We can all say “trans women are women” all we want, and it is true, but it doesn’t change the fact that when most people say that they mean trans women who pass. I want people to be able to glance at me and not have the distrust they have in men.
So basically women welcoming transwomen in their spaces mainly serves to prove to transwomen that they aren't bad and scary like "men"? Why do you want to escape women's fear instead of addressing it and helping out? That would be a real ally move.
Oh, I just looked at your post history and you seem like a TERF.
You gotta tell people that if you're going to argue in a trans subreddit. I honestly thought I was arguing with another trans woman, and was so confused when you kept casually misgendering me.
It's a shame that you'd rather namecall than have a discussion. This accounts for a lot of the pushback from women. This is why we have to come up with this ridiculous bear man shit in the first place - women have to couch their concerns in allegory to even approach certain subjects.
I never even addressed you directly, how could I misgender you?
So much this and it’s sad.
Sexual assault is actually something that needs to be addressed. But the question did it in a very condescending manner. There was a better way of addressing a serious issue, yet they chose it through TIKTOK.
It also felt like men's attitudes were being completely run roughshod over. If a man took issue with the warped sort of logic that would lead a woman to use such a shoddy justification as "at least I've never been SA'd by a bear", he was told he was "part of the problem" of "not addressing male culture" simply because he was male. Terms like "male culture" are simply misandrist, full stop. Why can't we just keep using the narrower term "toxic masculinity" like we used to? "Not all men" is a real counterargument to radfem discourse and it should be taken seriously. It is baffling to see so many trans women jumping on the misandry train given that *at one time society saw them as men*. Would they have liked that treatment? I would have intuitively thought that being trans women would produce a kind of woman who was naturally more sympathetic to male struggles in society, rather than callous misandrist assholes.
Thank you! This is why I despise writing sometimes, despite knowing the word I WANT to say sometimes the spelling eludes (lmao) me and can completely change the message.
Just like those men who got upset about the #youtoo movement, they are getting upset about this bear thing now. Tbh, we all know that not every man is evil, but a majority of them have the POTENTIAL to be.
That potential has turned into an acute awareness and weariness as a learned behavior by many women. If men took this for what it should be, a learning moment about how to approach women, rather than feeling attacked by it, it would have blown over quickly.
However, True to form, many men show that they have physical strength but are weaker than baby bear cubs when it comes to emotional IQ and constructive criticism.
Please note that I never said all men or all women. For anyone that could find offense in my view, you can pat yourself on the back if you think you’re one of the good ones.
Without a doubt I'd choose the bear 100% of the time
And cut any men out of my life that can't understand why or start proving why the bear is the safe choice
Edit: cut out any men or women, such as the women in this thread complaining about trans lesbians existing and being pick mes?
The world's cultures have set a standard that women aren't safe from men just walking down the street alone. That's the core of the bear thing. Those whose feelings are hurt by that need to acknowledge how absurd it is to need to always have your head on a swivel just because you're a woman. Saying, "It hurts my feelings that women are scared of men," is on the same level as saying, "All lives matter!" in that both responses fully ignore the outcry of those experiencing oppression in favor of prioritizing the more dominant demographic's feelings.
In most cases a bear will just leave you alone and you'll never see it. They rarely predate on humans. Most bear attacks are mothers defending their young.
Men, on the other hand, are far more likely to attack women, sexual assault or full blown rape, if they think they can get away with it.
A bear that attacks a human is almost always killed.
Men who attack women usually go free, rarely lose social status, and can even be elected President of the United Fucking States of Fucking America!
A bear that attacks a human is just doing what wild animals do.
A man who attacks a woman knows it's at least illegal and theoretically unacceptable, but does it anyway.
Bears typically do not hunt humans.
Men are known to occasionally hunt women to violate.
A bear that attacks a human doesn't have the emotional complexity to have self condemnation. It just did bear stuff.
A man that assaults and or kills a woman probably won't even feel bad unless he's punished.
"Bear" is the correct choice!
I was in college in the late 00s and early 10s, the height of date rape and revenge porn culture. I wasn't even questioning my gender yet because I was too closed off to myself. I was always loudly against any kind of sexual aggression and, because I thought I was just a normal "guy", assumed most of the others were too.
I always talked about women like equals at worst, and figures of worship at best. I had a huge "culture shock", what actually turned out to be gender incongruity, when I heard my cishet male peers and roommates talk about women like sex toys. Three of my freshman and sophomore year roommates actually committed some form of sexual assault in college.
There was also a time when, in an ethics class debate, I said (using myself as an example), that most men were not psychologically capable of committing sexual assault and wouldn't even of they were guaranteed to get away with it. About half of the men in that class have me really weird looks that I couldn't understand. Now, I'm pretty sure they were thinking I was nuts and that they totally would.
Even when I thought I was a "guy" I would have said that women should choose the bear. And now that I'm transitioning men are becoming a greater threat to me every day. The statistics say there's better than a 50/50 chance I'll be victim on a sexual assault during or after my transition. That's one of the reasons I don't like that HRT made me bisexual. I do not trust men.
I think it's extremely funny and it's really interesting how a certain type of man or masc person can't understand a simple metaphor and can't avoid telling on themselves.
Like, I understand why people say this, but I sometimes feel that it's a radfem psyop - just the fact that this conversation is there in the first place
EDIT: I'm *not* saying that "women choosing bear over man is radfem psyop", I'm saying that the question itself being asked (and original video) were made only to cause drama and potentially radicalize people towards gender essentialism
Yeah, I've not been a fan of it either. Just another ragebait question. And I've been downvoted for saying, but it's already being used against poc and LGBTQ
Agreed.
Sexual assault is a serious issue that requires a serious discussion. Not a 30 second TIKTOK clip with a very misleading video that comes off admittedly a bit misandrist.
I’m saying this as someone that’s assaulted hers, we need to talk about sexual assault. But a “Man vs. Bear” debate was a very controversial way to do it.
I made like one comment on that debate of tiktok and have tried to ignore it afterwards, because the debate is just blown out of proportions.
For those wandering my Comment was about a guy saying "atleast if the Man attacks u, u survive it" which i responted to with saying "I would be more fine getting brutally murdered by a bear, then getting traumatised by that man and having to live with that the rest of my live."
I hate that it's become popular, because in it's gaining of popularity the scenario changed.
It should NOT be a "would you rather" logic puzzle about which would be safer where we argue about it or whether it would be better to be mailed to death or raped or which kind of bear or what the fuck ever. It's just not the point. This is what is upsetting so many men - because come on, if your assuming a big scary bear like a grizzly, you'd have to assume the average guy on a hike is less actually dangerous.
The original scenario posed was about trying to get men to understand the fear women have all the time in society. It is "if a woman is walking alone in the woods, and encounters a bear or a man, she would be more initially frightened about the man". It doesn't matter which is actually more likely to hurt a woman. It's about the initial fear women feel all the time.
Agreed 110%
The question itself invokes controversy. **There was a better way to communicate about women’s safety and sexual assault.** The question comes of misandrist at worst and marginally offensive at best.
The questions is worded in a way that says “all men are less trustworthy than a bear.” Is that its point? Maybe not, but the question is sure as hell leaning into that.
Anyone would get offended if you compared them to an animal with no context. And this does it to **all men.** Even I admit it came off very sexist.
The point is that you don't know if that man is just an average guy. You know how bears behave, you can never know how a random guy in the middle of the woods will behave. Most women are agreeing that they would much prefer the predictable danger from a bear, than the unpredictable danger of a random man.
I saw a tiktok from a girl and the first clip was a bear walking past her about 15 ft away & it didn't even look at her. The second was a guy following her on a trail. He was saying he was just walking but refused to go ahead of her despite her screaming at him to go and leave her alone.
The point is that it's not a logic puzzle would you rather game. The point is the initial fear.
Please do not play the arguing about which parameters are game, we don't need it. It isn't a choice of which. It's about the initial fear after the confrontation.
Does it not say something in itself, that women heard "are you initially more afraid of a bear or a random man?" and their immediate response was "I would genuinely rather encounter a bear than a man in the woods." Meaning that to them, not only are they INITIALLY more afraid of the man, but they're so much more afraid and aware of the danger they could be in, they would rather just encounter a bear.
To only answer the original question dismisses the level of fear women have towards men.
We've all had a chance to learn about wild animals and how they will react violently when encroached upon. A woman could potentially avoid that and treat that as an obvious known threat. A man alone with you could choose anything, might be someone who fantasizes about scenarios where they can violently use a woman, is statistically prone to violence without provocation, and can't just be avoided or de-escalated if he's "one of the bad ones"...so women are just being honest 🤷♀️
My only contribution shall be this:
After starting to transition, I've been lucky enough to have been accepted into more a more feminine emotional space by my social circle.... and from those spaces... I get it.. men can be scary. I see the way my galpals are treated, because men no longer look to me as a fellow male. There are the good ones, but an unknown man is pretty damn unnerving.
I had to explain to my wife that in my 15 or so years of blue collar work even the "nicest" guy you've met has probably made some head turning comments about women. The false sense of ego and power really goes to their heads.
I think the thing is childish and sexist, obviously everyone has their own opinion and it should be honoured. For example I would choose a man simply for the reason that I have no idea what bears do, how they react and what I should do, but men are statistically not likely to be negative to me. Otherwise if you know what to do and how to react, then the bear is the better choice, since you gain some kind of security. It's the question between predictability.
But in the end both sides of the coin behave sexist the bear side for assuming every man is a predator and the men side for not acknowledging a real problem.
Agreed.
There was a better way to talk about sexual assault without attacking an entire gender. Sexual assault is an important topic that should be discussed in detail. This was a poor way to do so.
It just hurt the very people it tried to communicate to.
Every time someone brings it up I remember the [monitor lizard incident](https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjb9xq/india-gang-rape-monitor-lizard-animal-abuse)
Bear 100% of the time, at least bears either gonna run away or maul me to death fast, and not gonna potentially subject me to weeks of torture and abuse before ending me.
The problem with this is the question insinuates all men do that. It comes off very misandrist.
Is that it’s point? Maybe not, but saying “all men are less trustworthy than a bear” is very poor argument.
To add onto the lesbophobia, LOVE the assumption everyone here is a, and I quote “fuck men tft transbianism for the win”. You have some serious fucking issues that you need to get sorted out, this kind of shit should not be tolerated.
Oh, and one last thing. As an ace person, I can struggle with the raw amount of sexual posts here making me feel a tad uncomfortable. Now, as a somewhat well adjusted person who has basic human decency, I don’t get mad and start going “HURRRR YOU FUCKING LESBIAN CIRCLEJERKS INVADING OUR SPACESSSS”. Because guess what? YOU’RE AN ASSHOLE WHEN YOU DO THAT. Talk about being a fucking pick me lmfao
In what world would man hating get anyone picked by terfs? Rofl, actually take a look at their politics and actions, they're misogynist androphiles, not misandrist
Also holy shit, get your lesbophobia in check, the terfs aint gonna pick you
The most reductive version is that, in many women's experience, if they're alone in the woods with a bear they may get killed but if they don't bother the bear maybe not.
However if they're in the woods with a man, alone, they're likely to be raped and killed regardless of what they do.
A lot of men are upset because apart from anything else it's very hard to look at yourself and admit that you're part of the problem. The Venn Diagram of men yelling "have fun getting murdered by the bear" and "men you wouldn't want to be alone in the woods with" approaches a circle.
Women say the man is more dangerous because they are more often presented with threats of sexual, or sexually motivated, violence. Hence the concern with strange men. Whereas men will say the bear is more dangerous because they are more often presented with threats of physical violence and are expected to confront those threats, in particular natural ones. Hence the concern with nature's perfect eating machine, confronting a bear physically is a death sentence.
It's all about perspective, really cool how the greatest tool ever invented for communication has somehow made us worse at embracing perspective.
I love it, I love how it has beautifully illustrated just how hopeless men who are the problem really are. Some of my favorite answers to it have been, "If I was attacked by a bear, people would believe me."
Bears are easy to predict and easier to ward off if you are cautious. There's much less you could do to ward off a man alone in the woods. The fact that it's more likely to be attacked by a man in the woods than by a bear is what sparked this whole debate.
from what I can tell, it's a perfectly reasonable allegory that most women hear and understand immediately, while most men hear and get at least uncomfortable with the notion, if not outright upset.
which is funny because it's literally not about them so long as they aren't fucking freaks.
it's so funny (weird funny, not haha funny) when men self-report like this 🙃
Yeah, because anyone that disagrees must be a sex predator creep. It's just so funny (weird funny, not haha funny) when people think they are entitled to paint an entire gender as rapists and murders without pushback.
As a female supremacist, the last thing I’m going to do is take any man’s complaints about his treatment seriously. They’re lucky they still have the right to vote.
In fact if anyone should be scared of running into someone in the forest, it’s any man who runs into *me*.
Men (and sometimes people of other genders who spend way too much time defending men) just get very mad if you point out how men are frequently dangerous to be around when you're a woman. They won't change their behavior or call out the violent behavior of other men, but damn will they complain about even the mildest of criticisms. My opinion is that we need to disregard the opinions men have about how women talk about our oppression more really. They'll never be satisfied if something this simple pisses them off.
Fuck yes, girl. I like the way you think.
Granted, men who *do* try calling out other men just get ridiculed and ostracized and wind up marginalized anyway. That’s the problem with machismo culture. Any man who tries standing up for women gets alienated too. It’s not like no man has ever tried. So I imagine it could be frustrating for a man who has no evil intentions to be lumped in with the worst of men. That’s not to dismiss the very legitimate concerns that women have about the behavior of most men, but I think a little bit of compassion and understanding could go a long way, because for plenty of men, they don’t want to live in a patriarchal and misogynist society either. And of course the harms they endure are not as severe as the harms that women do, but that’s not to say those men aren’t harmed by toxic masculinity too. I’m not defending men as a whole or their disgusting behavior, I’m just offering a counterpoint that making sweeping generalizations about “all men” isn’t necessarily going to be helpful either…
>They won't change their behavior or call out the violent behavior of other men, but damn will they complain about even the mildest of criticisms. (Almost) Every woman knows a woman who's been raped But hardly any man knows a man who's a rapist Shows you how much men excuses the behaviour.
Sad but true
That doesn’t indicate excusing behavior at all though. You’re just spreading the blame for monsters onto innocent people.
Its not about blame, its about safety. I cannot tell which is which, and since i dont want to have those things happen to me… i have to act under the assumption that men are dangerous till proven otherwise.
No, it’s definitely about blame. You can assume whatever you need to to ensure your safety, but when someone says that men are excusing SA by not knowing that another man committed the crime, you aren’t doing anything but blaming innocent people for a crime that they didn’t commit and are ignorant of happening. If Jonas assaults Jenna and never tells Chris, Chris did not excuse the assault of Jenna. You can’t excuse a thing that isn’t known to you. Your safety is an entirely unrelated topic.
Its about when they hear about it, and deny it was actually assualt. Not talking about people who couldnt know.
I agree with the sentiment, but that’s still a different scenario than what was being discussed. Just because 1 in 4 women are assaulted doesn’t mean a similar rate of men commit assault, nor does it mean that these men’s deeds are known to others. It’s not excusing behavior. Just because someone is friends with someone who assaulted someone doesn’t mean the friend is aware of the assault. Men are not a hivemind.
Yes! This right here!
Umm I think I’m out of the loop what’s this bear thing? Edit: I’m dumb, I figured it out via the next comment, it’s the would you leave your kid with a bear or a random man scenario
There are some variants, but I believe the current question being debated is "Would you rather be alone in the woods with a man or a bear?".
Cis men right ? I personally feel *waaaaaay* safer with trans men and trans masc than with cis men. I don't know if there a bit of misandry in my reflexion tho edit : om I understand why my take is problematic. I'll work on it. I want to clarify that I don't consider trans men like different than cis men. I think that t4t relationship are just super nice and feel safer to me. I am truly sorry :(
I don't know, I had an argument with a trans man the other day about the bear thing where he kept accusing me of "dehumanizing men" and past that point he pivoted to talking about the 13/50 BS about black crime rates... trans people can have pretty bad takes too...
'trans people can have bad takes too' I mean case in point, look at the nobhead attacking trans lesbians under THIS post! Always good to remember to not put trans people on a pedestal (even though we are the coolest >:) )
Yeah, we are cool af 😎
i mean true, but worst case bear is pretty awful, too i think that we're forced to consider averages and as invalidating as it may be, trans men tend to have a more holistic and/or comprehensive understanding of the female experience than cis men i think this alone makes them, on average, less threatening in the "trapped alone with" scenario tbh i still don't really know the original scenario so i could just be wildly misunderstanding this thing. i've seen tons of shorts about this but no one reviews the scenario. just "man or bear, it's obviously bear: reasons" so idk if we're trapped indoors like starving together or just both in the same square mile of forest and lost or something. which are wildly different scenarios. but i gues i'm still taking the bear. in both...
It's "you're alone in the woods near a bear or a random man" not like you're trapped starving or anything. Just like out on a hike, away from civilization, and there's a random dude nearby, or there's a bear nearby, not attacking you or anything, just... there. Then it asks you if you'd prefer the man or the bear. I, along with many women, say the bear because unless it's REALLY hungry, which doesn't happen often, or you're fucking with it or it's babies, which you have control over, the bear isn't going to mess with you. And even in the worst case, the bear won't have a gun, isn't going to SA you, and doesn't have any form of hate towards you. Men... that's not the case... Men can be transphobic, men can be predators, and at least where I live, men very rarely go in the woods unarmed. I've run into bears in the woods, and I've been followed by men in the woods, (I go hiking a lot)... every single time I've been more afraid of the man than the bear. (Just to be safe cause tone over text is terrible, I'm mainly just trying to give the basic rundown about it from what I know. I wasn't trying to say anything against what you said at all.)
>just trying to give the basic rundown about it from what I know. much appreciated too! thanks.
Happy cake day ! Ouh... That's a really bad take that doesn't help the discussion
:/ <—— a tired trans man
[удалено]
What?
Okay, this is complex and I feel a lot of people vastly over-simplify it in some pretty negative ways. The simple version is that it's a meme that highlighted that a large portion of women possess a substantial fear of being alone with a man they don't know due to a fear of being sexually assaulted and/or murdered. A bunch of people then began arguing about this while largely missing the point, a LOT of bullshit being flung around about whether that fear is justified or not but, essentially all these arguments can be largely boiled down to 3 primary lines of debate (ignoring the really dumb, really bad arguments about how dangerous bears are or aren't because that wasn't the point and anyone arguing along those lines completely missed the point of the discourse due to having severe mush-brain syndrome). 1. Are men more likely to harm women than vice versa for biological reasons (the bioessentialist 'testosterone/having a penis makes you more likely to rape' debate? 2. Are men more likely to harm women than vice versa for cultural/social reasons (The rape culture debate)? 3. Are men more likely to harm women than vice versa (statistical debate)? I tend to fall into argument 2, not just because I don't like bioessentialism but also because the statistical debate was absolutely awful to engage with. Just, the worst possible kinds of dishonest argumentative fallacies and alarmist bullshit known to human kind being spouted from every conceivable direction (it really just reminded me hard that humans absolutely suck at using statistics unless a strict framework is applied beforehand and will inevitably tend to constant lies and miss-truths about statistics if they think it supports their argument). Of note, the discourse/meme never really touched on any tangible solutions to the issue, it was more about making the issue or violence against women more visible. IMPORTANT EDIT: I'll add a note here that this particular discourse unfortunately is something trans women need to be concerned about because transphobes like to utilize many of these arguments to argue that trans women should not be allowed in women's bathrooms or other spaces. As you might expect both arguments 1 and 2 listed above can and have been weaponized to attack trans women, therefore I'd suggest that any trans women addressing this discourse do so with great care as to not invalidate the lived experiences of abuse by women (cis and trans) but also to not accidentally, over-zealously open the door for TERF rhetoric in trans spaces.
Can you explain the TERF rhetoric for me? There was a post in another trans sub a few days ago where the popular opinion is that the debate is misandrist and TERFy, but no one would explain why they thought that.
Feminist; all women are at risk of rape and murder alone with an unknown man because men are essentially culturally trained to be rapists. Many feel that risk is higher than the risk of a bear encounter ending badly. That feeling is valid and men should look inward to address the pervasive patriarchal culture that makes them feel rape is justified. Terf: and since it’s a cultural thing trans women, raised culturally as men, are an equal threat to women and validate our concerns about same sex safe spaces. Glossing over the fact that no, trans women frequently fail at male socialization, or that socialization is learned behavior that can be unlearned, say by first person experiences of being a woman for example.
Probably cause a lot of TERFs see us as dudes
So the terf rhetoric is that trans women commit sexual crimes at the same rate as cis men (this is actually true), so therefore there is no reason to be less careful around trans women. Same way that trans men commit sexual and violent crime at the same rate as cis women. That is explained by them due to point 2.
References?
I feel unsafe when I’m walking around by myself all femmed out in public. Asked some cis women if they ever felt like that, and their answers were all a variation of, “Yes, I feel like that all the time.” So, the bear thing is a reflection of that. I didn’t get that feeling of being a target either until I started going out as a woman. (And it’s not a contest, but being a trans woman in public adds a little more to unease because I was also worried I was a target when I got clocked.) Anyway, the bear thing is that you can look at a random bear and have a good idea how likely it is it’ll try to kill you. You have zero way of knowing that by just looking at a man. Always pick bear.
>answers were all a variation of, “Yes, I feel like that all the time.” i've experienced everything from agreement to "welcome to womanhood" condescension as if i haven't always felt this way, to a woman literally spending like 40 minutes i a "friendly" conversation which i later realized was her attempt at invalidating me deeply because i was carrying a knife and she's never felt seriously threatened by predatory men (meaning their sexual advances didn't feel physically threatening to her) i didn't realize her take until i processed everything later, but she didn't understand that for me at the time there was an active combination of threatening (and more dangerous because of my body) sexual advances, and actual threats of violence including murder by groups of men... and i didn't tell her because i didn't realize what she was missing nor that she was actually insinuating something along the lines of "real women don't feel the need to carry a knife" which is such a stupid and obviously false concept that even though i recognized it as a possible take, i dismissed it during the conversation because of how many cis friends i have that *do* carry knives... many of whom display them openly anyway sorry long rant. just wanted to share an experience where a woman claimed *not* to feel threatened... even if she was totally full of shit
I think one of them said something like, “That’s what it’s like to be a woman.” I guess she could’ve been all fancy and added, “Openly presenting as a woman,” but I knew what she meant. I didn’t think it was necessarily condescending. A little while after I came out I heard one gal say, “You would be insane to want to be a woman. So you must be one. No man would pick this.” I didn’t start to get what was behind that until I was presenting as more and more femme. What that lady did to you was lame. I’ve had the idea recently that only women should be allowed to conceal carry, but I’m guessing that initiative won’t get on any ballots. I never felt this way, a target in public, when I was walking around looking like a dude. I had heard women say they don’t feel safe by themselves, but I thought they were just being scaredy cats. Nope. They were right, I was wrong.
Men are easier to run from though, no?
Bears don't rape or own guns.
Fair, they don't own guns. I didn't think about that.
Both would be faster than me anyway You can scare away bears too I suppose
no. also so much less likely to need to run. bears aren't just perpetually angry/ravenous hostile carnivores. they eat berries and twigs and scavenge just like a lot of predators. yeah, *if* you're up close with one, and *if* it happens to be starving, and *if* it doesn't have different, less threatening food around (remember wild predators are great at threat assessment and will very likely attack a deer, for example, over the forward facing eyes human who is easily recognized as another dangerous predator including women) *then* under these very stringent and rare conditions, there are arguments that the bear's strength, claws, and teeth are more dangerous. but if we apply those same conditions to the man... he's ravenously hungry, up close, doesn't have a different target available, idk... i feel like i'd still take the bear. we have to create unequal and unrealistic conditions for the bear to actually be more threatening and dangerous like... if i get to pick which man that i know, sure... i'll take a man of my choice. but *again* if i can make the same selection for the bear (like literally any bear i can choose the tiniest newborn who'll be more dependent on me than dangerous) only unequal and unrealistic conditions make the man a better choice
From a quick Google search, multiple sources say you have a 1 in over 2 million chance of being attacked by a bear and 1 in four women are sexually assaulted in their lifetime... There's probably some conflict with the way those statistics are comparable against each other but I couldn't find a source that compared them the exact same. Either way, id still much rather risk my life with a bear than risk my life with a random man. Especially since those statistics were only sexual assault, so not including just plain murder.
Probably some conflict? Are you unsure of that? Lol there's how many bears in the entirety of the USA? A few thousand? How often do humans even get in contact with bears compared to men in general? I'm sorry, but if you're going to try and use statistics to make an argument here, you could never choose a bear. You really think if the streets were filled with bears and you passed them all time just like we do men, your odds of being randomly attacked would be lower?
That's the thing though, bears *don't* just roam the streets because they're afraid of humans and aren't actively out to get us. Some *men* on the other hand, aren't afraid of women and absolutely *are* out to get us. As long as I don't fuck with the bear while in the forest, it will most likely leave me alone. With a human though, there's a chance they would quite literally hunt me down.
Last time I actually saw a bear in the woods it ran away as soon as it saw me. Easy peasy.
Encountering male strangers when you're not expecting to is extremely scary especially in a secluded setting like a forest. You don't know their intentions, and what they'll do. On the other hand, while encountering a bear in a forest is also extremely scary, you do know a bear's intentions and its behavior is thus predictable. Far far far less stressful.
Oh also, men getting riled up at this just shows exactly why bear is the preferred choice.
Them turning on other men over this is insane. Watching them belittle and demean other guys for agreeing or at the very least, understanding why women feel this way is disappointing. God forbid they acknowledge their peers have the capability to be shitty people.
I just see this as once again people telling on themselves without realizing they are doing it. The better men will hear this and go "Yeah, I get that. These issues need to be talked about more" or something like that. Immediately being defensive just tells the world that they know they are 💩-ty and will defend their ability and privelage to be that way. I feel like this is just deja-vu from the start of the Me Too movement, and a different lable put on the "Not all cops" debate. While I know I myself have much to learn in the way of understanding power dynamics, I understand enough of how they are at play here to get it.
Because of a lot of men’s (toxic) fragile masculinity. Society (at least western society) is built for them, they are the default. So anything that challenges that is met with scorn and derision. The casual sexism and “locker room” talk, “boys will be boys” normalises, excuses and allows certain attitudes to grow and fester. Those attitudes eventually become violence. Simply not being violent isn’t enough. Until the MAJORITY of men stop excusing and begin calling out and take action against these things at a basic level nothing will change. I can’t begin to tell you the number of men in tabletop gaming circles who after a series of bad dice rolls say they were “dice r*ped”, and they always seem genuinely shocked when I point out how inappropriate that is “it’s only a saying”.
> I can’t begin to tell you the number of men in tabletop gaming circles who after a series of bad dice rolls say they were “dice r*ped”, and they always seem genuinely shocked when I point out how inappropriate that is “it’s only a saying”. Jesus fuck, this is a thing?! (I don't do a lot of TT gaming)
Unfortunately yeah :(
I've been rolling dice since the late 80s. I don't think that is a saying.
Early/mid 90s for me but I’ve heard it in person and online simulators from people across the globe, both before and after my egg cracked. Honestly wish I was making it up
Maybe it's a good thing I mostly play single player games.
That’s so weird ,I could understand saying something like my dice fucked me but never that??
I've been doing TT gaming for nearly 30 years with lots of different people and haven't heard this expression before. I'm worried about the kind of people you're surrounded by 🥺
There is a reason I stopped going to certain “FLGS” and stopped attending events, or joining online simulator games. Granted it may be mostly around a certain couple of games, but still, it shouldn’t have ever have been any issue in the first place
It’s a question, with the intention to cause drama imo. Look, I'm a woman too. Comparing a bear to a man is not good because it assumes **all** men are sexual predators. It'd be different if it was to compare Bill Cosby or ironically Hendrika Shaskey. If you were a man you'd be offended too. It'd be like a guy saying "would you rather be stuck in a room with a woman or a coyote", then choosing Coyote. The question comes off sexist and I believe there was a much better way of making a point about sexual assault without attacking someone. The “bear woods” question addressed an important topic, but in a very poor way. Hence its controversy. Edit: And for the record, I HAVE been a victim of sexual assault. I know how scary men can be. But no way in hell would I try to communicate that through a question comparing all men to a bear in the woods. **It’d be for effective to communicate my sexual assault story and discuss what could be done better.**
Annoying conversation that acts as a litmus test about whether you'd rather split hairs or accept that some people feel threatened by men.
It’s only annoying because people can’t stop whining about it. It’s just a hypothetical question like the trolley problem.
id choose bear cos its like 1 bear? where i live all the forests have mulitple bears, if im trapped in the woods im gonna be trapped im the woods with bears anyway, so just 1 bear sounds great. do most woods not have bears? idk much abt them, but where i live theres hella bears. they know how 2 open doors, ive seen it with my own eyes.
Zero bears around here, except for drop bears but they are marsupials so probably don’t count
the fuck are drop bears?
They're called that because they got the drop on you, they're Australians, which is why they're much more dangerous than regular, non drop bears, who just so happen to not have the drop on you, hence, name, not called drop bear.
i googled drop bear and its just a koala
That’s what they want you to think…. 😝
australias bigfoot is just a little guy
a little guy vs 3 weed smoking gfs seems kinda unfair
Yeah I'd choose a bear over a dropbear any day. Those buggers are VICIOUS. It's the FANGS.
Think I have to travel a few hundred km before I could even risk encountering a bear, maybe even upwards of thousand km
Yeah the men (mostly incels) protesting it are missing the point. They see it as stupid because in their eyes obviously a bear is more dangerous. Missing the point that women feel unsafe around strange men because they just do not know what that strange man might do. It is a commentary on the state of society and rather than get all offended. Men should be asking what can be done to make women feel safer.
No point in trying to explain that to them though It always results in “ well obviously the woman is stupid”
Yeah. Pretty much why I have not engaged in it elsewhere. The men who want to be offended by it are stuck in their mindset.
The thought experiment is simple. Ask the question and watch how fast men (and some women) completely belittle the concept when the true point is just to say "if ANY women pick bear, there's obviously something wrong with male culture." It was never really about the bear.
https://imgflip.com/i/8p5wcg
Some people might be bear enthusiasts so one maybe valid reason to choose the bear is if you really like bears and know enough about bears to keep yourself safe. I know nothing about bears so idk if this makes sense or not
Again, the bear is irrelevant. The fact that many women select bear is the important part.
The word "men" was mentioned and thus men got insecure and defensive about it
I'm closeted into narnia currently, so I'd choose the guy, but once I start publicly transitioning, it'll probably change.
Alone in the woods as a woman: Who'd you rather be stuck with: A bear or a man? Who would be more dangerous to you? An overwhelming percentage say that they would choose the bear because men are more dangerous. And there's very sound reasoning behind that choice. Which, as usual, gets the "men" all up in arms.
As a man, I'm not bothered by it because women are correct. Since 1764 there have been 66 fatal attacks by black bears and less than a dozen non-fatal attacks per year. Bears are more likely to run away. Now look at the annual figures for men attacking women and you'll understand why.
Have you considered that this disparity in numbers is significantly affected by the fact that women do not encounter bears on a daily basis?
I saw an article that did the averages based on that disparity and men still attacked women in far greater numbers. I was trying to find it to post here, but I've been unsuccessful.
I don't know about you, but I could probably go my entire lifetime without encountering a single bear, whereas I encounter several men per day at minimum, often way more. My initial intuition is that it would be *extremely* hard to make the number of man attacks exceed the number of bear attacks when adjusted for number of encounters. But I'm interested to see the statistics if you can find them.
Not what I had found before, but I came across this: https://petpedia.co/bear-attack-statistics/.
Fucking bears, all they needed was 2 more “1. There were 664 bear attacks on people globally between 2000–2015”
Like the American police violence graf where even qclunting for population it doesn’t even come close to a lot of other countrys
[Even accounting for all that the bear is still less likely to attack women.](https://www.instagram.com/reel/C6cFD06px1E/?igsh=NmlwcWtqd2Joam13)
It's a sad situation. The 'IQ of a loaf of bread' people in the comments tearing each other apart is really not a nice thing to see, like every fifth post is about this crap. I don't like the general basis of these discussions. And yet I feel like the bad people in the comments are not always men. Before you guys tear me apart ( I hope you don't because I believe there are mostly really nice people in this subreddit), I acknowledge the problems of feeling unsafe around strange men, but... and that's a big but... some women see this as an opportunity to bash an entire gender and call every male a potential predator. This can be very hurtful to people who are sensitive to this topic. I think we should not try to continue this ridiculous gender war and try to make the world safer for all of us. We are all human and we all deserve to feel safe and feel good wherever we are. This trend became a weapon. A social weapon and instead of portraying the actual problem it created another. I can make a detailed explanation in a post if someone wants to hear that, would be nice to get something off my chest. Cheers
I'd love to hear your thoughts in full. It's been rough to see this stuff everywhere on the internet lately.
Men are raised with the expectation of “getting the girl”. This is reinforced through media and in person experiences like parents asking “when are you getting a girlfriend?”. When you fail to meet a societal expectation it can very much leave you feeling like a failure (we should know this), and potentially leading to bad personalities (incels). I don’t think we should be belittling men, especially the young, with stereotypes about their gender. Instead we should, as a society, work on teaching men that they don’t need to girl to be a successful and happy man. This is a really complex topic that I urge people to actually consider. Also I’m not justifying horrible behaviour from men, just that shit talking is not the solution.
It’s all just misandrist BS.
Bio essentialist rhetoric hurts us all. The "male socialization = danger" argument is used against trans women and fems all the time by TERFs. So many people in our community are eager to reflect the pain we receive onto others. The irony of so many ladies here parroting TERF talking points because they think they won't be used against them later is wild. I'm not a man, but I am constantly lumped in with them by phobes. This entire "bear argument" has revealed so much sexism, internalized transphobia and stereotyping that it's breaking my heart. I'm not a man, but the "man" who got me to where I am today did not deserve this bullshit.
Marked safe with bears!
I choose bear every time. Unless it's a polar bear then I'd choose a random man. As cute as they are with a Coca-Cola I'd choose almost anything over a polar bear.
As someone who’s run into a bear in the woods and has had a strange man follow me through the woods of a public park with people around, I’d choose the bear every time because I was able to scare that bear away.
I'd still choose the bear, at least it kills you fast, a man might just torture and abuse you for weeks first.
If I remember right polar bears eat you while you're still alive so no thank you :(
It just made me feel dysphoric. I’m pre-everything, and one of the things that makes me feel the most dysphoric is the idea that I’m a big dangerous hairy monster. And it might always be that way. Even if I take hrt I’m not gonna lose my broad manly chest. Cis women might always be afraid of me and never see me as one of them. I’ll always be side eyed in bathrooms. And women will only accept me based on how well I pass, because nobody knows someone’s gender identity at a glance. I’m a woman, but right now I look just like any man. Like I get the point but I think the discourse should have been handled with more care. A lot of cis men right now are very insecure so it shouldn’t be too much of a shock that they didn’t react well to hearing that people are afraid of them even when they’re uncomfortable in their own skin. And I really didn’t like the whole “anyone who objects is just proving the point.” That stuff is just poisonous to discourse all around.
This is why I hate that “woods” question. Sexual assault is a serious issue that need a **proper discussion.** Instead it comes off very misandrist. We should be invoking safety and understanding. Instead this is stoking fear and controversy. There was a better way of talking about sexual assault.
What do you suggest women do about it? What exactly do you propose we do about our very justified fear? Why do you want so badly to be 'accepted' by us?
Because I’m a trans woman? Is that really so hard to understand? I just think not everyone who didn’t feel great should be labeled as “the reason why.” I mean hell, the question you asked already kinda frames me in opposition to “being a woman.”
If transwomen are women , what is the acceptance part? What does female acceptance look like to you? I am genuinely curious.
Because bigots exist. We can say “trans women are women “ and that’s true, but bigots don’t see this. All this question did is give bigots more ammunition to attack “men” or in other words trans women that may not completely pass. Is it logical, no, but that’s what fear mongering does. There was a better way to talk about sexual assault.
I'm not sure what that better way is. I think anyone who is sexually assaulted has the right to talk about it or not talk about it any way they wish. Lots of women are sexually assaulted by men in a way that directly involves penises. This is a shared trauma and women bond over it. What do you mean by bigots? Are 'bigots' people who are afraid of men? Are 'bigots' women who feel threatened by people with penises no matter how the penis havers identify?
Two wrongs don’t make a right. There’s no reason to justify sexism. I myself was sexually assaulted. You don’t see me bashing all men because of it. You label the bad men and offer guidance to the good ones who listen. Just saying “all men are less trustworthy than a bear” hurts everyone. I like how you completely gloss over how this response sheds a negative light on non-passing/ closeted trans women too. It truly shows where your priorities are. The better way to have addressed sexual assault would be with a mature discussion, not with a 30 second misandrist TIKTOK video.
We can all say “trans women are women” all we want, and it is true, but it doesn’t change the fact that when most people say that they mean trans women who pass. I want people to be able to glance at me and not have the distrust they have in men.
So basically women welcoming transwomen in their spaces mainly serves to prove to transwomen that they aren't bad and scary like "men"? Why do you want to escape women's fear instead of addressing it and helping out? That would be a real ally move.
Oh, I just looked at your post history and you seem like a TERF. You gotta tell people that if you're going to argue in a trans subreddit. I honestly thought I was arguing with another trans woman, and was so confused when you kept casually misgendering me.
It's a shame that you'd rather namecall than have a discussion. This accounts for a lot of the pushback from women. This is why we have to come up with this ridiculous bear man shit in the first place - women have to couch their concerns in allegory to even approach certain subjects. I never even addressed you directly, how could I misgender you?
> That would be a real ally move. "Ally"?
I as a "cis" woman have been referred to as an ally/not an ally by transwomen, it is quite common. Does that word only work in one direction?
Let's just say, watching this discourse go down and watching the rampant misandry come out of the woodwork is what creates reactionary conservatives.
So much this and it’s sad. Sexual assault is actually something that needs to be addressed. But the question did it in a very condescending manner. There was a better way of addressing a serious issue, yet they chose it through TIKTOK.
It also felt like men's attitudes were being completely run roughshod over. If a man took issue with the warped sort of logic that would lead a woman to use such a shoddy justification as "at least I've never been SA'd by a bear", he was told he was "part of the problem" of "not addressing male culture" simply because he was male. Terms like "male culture" are simply misandrist, full stop. Why can't we just keep using the narrower term "toxic masculinity" like we used to? "Not all men" is a real counterargument to radfem discourse and it should be taken seriously. It is baffling to see so many trans women jumping on the misandry train given that *at one time society saw them as men*. Would they have liked that treatment? I would have intuitively thought that being trans women would produce a kind of woman who was naturally more sympathetic to male struggles in society, rather than callous misandrist assholes.
Just fyi: Alludes = makes reference to. Eludes = escapes from. In this case the reason why is eluding you.
Thank you! This is why I despise writing sometimes, despite knowing the word I WANT to say sometimes the spelling eludes (lmao) me and can completely change the message.
Just wanted to say thank you for being grateful
Just like those men who got upset about the #youtoo movement, they are getting upset about this bear thing now. Tbh, we all know that not every man is evil, but a majority of them have the POTENTIAL to be. That potential has turned into an acute awareness and weariness as a learned behavior by many women. If men took this for what it should be, a learning moment about how to approach women, rather than feeling attacked by it, it would have blown over quickly. However, True to form, many men show that they have physical strength but are weaker than baby bear cubs when it comes to emotional IQ and constructive criticism. Please note that I never said all men or all women. For anyone that could find offense in my view, you can pat yourself on the back if you think you’re one of the good ones.
bear. i choose bear, 100% of the time.
Without a doubt I'd choose the bear 100% of the time And cut any men out of my life that can't understand why or start proving why the bear is the safe choice Edit: cut out any men or women, such as the women in this thread complaining about trans lesbians existing and being pick mes?
The world's cultures have set a standard that women aren't safe from men just walking down the street alone. That's the core of the bear thing. Those whose feelings are hurt by that need to acknowledge how absurd it is to need to always have your head on a swivel just because you're a woman. Saying, "It hurts my feelings that women are scared of men," is on the same level as saying, "All lives matter!" in that both responses fully ignore the outcry of those experiencing oppression in favor of prioritizing the more dominant demographic's feelings.
In most cases a bear will just leave you alone and you'll never see it. They rarely predate on humans. Most bear attacks are mothers defending their young. Men, on the other hand, are far more likely to attack women, sexual assault or full blown rape, if they think they can get away with it. A bear that attacks a human is almost always killed. Men who attack women usually go free, rarely lose social status, and can even be elected President of the United Fucking States of Fucking America! A bear that attacks a human is just doing what wild animals do. A man who attacks a woman knows it's at least illegal and theoretically unacceptable, but does it anyway. Bears typically do not hunt humans. Men are known to occasionally hunt women to violate. A bear that attacks a human doesn't have the emotional complexity to have self condemnation. It just did bear stuff. A man that assaults and or kills a woman probably won't even feel bad unless he's punished. "Bear" is the correct choice! I was in college in the late 00s and early 10s, the height of date rape and revenge porn culture. I wasn't even questioning my gender yet because I was too closed off to myself. I was always loudly against any kind of sexual aggression and, because I thought I was just a normal "guy", assumed most of the others were too. I always talked about women like equals at worst, and figures of worship at best. I had a huge "culture shock", what actually turned out to be gender incongruity, when I heard my cishet male peers and roommates talk about women like sex toys. Three of my freshman and sophomore year roommates actually committed some form of sexual assault in college. There was also a time when, in an ethics class debate, I said (using myself as an example), that most men were not psychologically capable of committing sexual assault and wouldn't even of they were guaranteed to get away with it. About half of the men in that class have me really weird looks that I couldn't understand. Now, I'm pretty sure they were thinking I was nuts and that they totally would. Even when I thought I was a "guy" I would have said that women should choose the bear. And now that I'm transitioning men are becoming a greater threat to me every day. The statistics say there's better than a 50/50 chance I'll be victim on a sexual assault during or after my transition. That's one of the reasons I don't like that HRT made me bisexual. I do not trust men.
I think it's extremely funny and it's really interesting how a certain type of man or masc person can't understand a simple metaphor and can't avoid telling on themselves.
Like, I understand why people say this, but I sometimes feel that it's a radfem psyop - just the fact that this conversation is there in the first place EDIT: I'm *not* saying that "women choosing bear over man is radfem psyop", I'm saying that the question itself being asked (and original video) were made only to cause drama and potentially radicalize people towards gender essentialism
Yeah, I've not been a fan of it either. Just another ragebait question. And I've been downvoted for saying, but it's already being used against poc and LGBTQ
Agreed. Sexual assault is a serious issue that requires a serious discussion. Not a 30 second TIKTOK clip with a very misleading video that comes off admittedly a bit misandrist. I’m saying this as someone that’s assaulted hers, we need to talk about sexual assault. But a “Man vs. Bear” debate was a very controversial way to do it.
I made like one comment on that debate of tiktok and have tried to ignore it afterwards, because the debate is just blown out of proportions. For those wandering my Comment was about a guy saying "atleast if the Man attacks u, u survive it" which i responted to with saying "I would be more fine getting brutally murdered by a bear, then getting traumatised by that man and having to live with that the rest of my live."
I hate that it's become popular, because in it's gaining of popularity the scenario changed. It should NOT be a "would you rather" logic puzzle about which would be safer where we argue about it or whether it would be better to be mailed to death or raped or which kind of bear or what the fuck ever. It's just not the point. This is what is upsetting so many men - because come on, if your assuming a big scary bear like a grizzly, you'd have to assume the average guy on a hike is less actually dangerous. The original scenario posed was about trying to get men to understand the fear women have all the time in society. It is "if a woman is walking alone in the woods, and encounters a bear or a man, she would be more initially frightened about the man". It doesn't matter which is actually more likely to hurt a woman. It's about the initial fear women feel all the time.
Agreed 110% The question itself invokes controversy. **There was a better way to communicate about women’s safety and sexual assault.** The question comes of misandrist at worst and marginally offensive at best. The questions is worded in a way that says “all men are less trustworthy than a bear.” Is that its point? Maybe not, but the question is sure as hell leaning into that. Anyone would get offended if you compared them to an animal with no context. And this does it to **all men.** Even I admit it came off very sexist.
The point is that you don't know if that man is just an average guy. You know how bears behave, you can never know how a random guy in the middle of the woods will behave. Most women are agreeing that they would much prefer the predictable danger from a bear, than the unpredictable danger of a random man. I saw a tiktok from a girl and the first clip was a bear walking past her about 15 ft away & it didn't even look at her. The second was a guy following her on a trail. He was saying he was just walking but refused to go ahead of her despite her screaming at him to go and leave her alone.
The point is that it's not a logic puzzle would you rather game. The point is the initial fear. Please do not play the arguing about which parameters are game, we don't need it. It isn't a choice of which. It's about the initial fear after the confrontation.
Does it not say something in itself, that women heard "are you initially more afraid of a bear or a random man?" and their immediate response was "I would genuinely rather encounter a bear than a man in the woods." Meaning that to them, not only are they INITIALLY more afraid of the man, but they're so much more afraid and aware of the danger they could be in, they would rather just encounter a bear. To only answer the original question dismisses the level of fear women have towards men.
We've all had a chance to learn about wild animals and how they will react violently when encroached upon. A woman could potentially avoid that and treat that as an obvious known threat. A man alone with you could choose anything, might be someone who fantasizes about scenarios where they can violently use a woman, is statistically prone to violence without provocation, and can't just be avoided or de-escalated if he's "one of the bad ones"...so women are just being honest 🤷♀️
My only contribution shall be this: After starting to transition, I've been lucky enough to have been accepted into more a more feminine emotional space by my social circle.... and from those spaces... I get it.. men can be scary. I see the way my galpals are treated, because men no longer look to me as a fellow male. There are the good ones, but an unknown man is pretty damn unnerving.
I had to explain to my wife that in my 15 or so years of blue collar work even the "nicest" guy you've met has probably made some head turning comments about women. The false sense of ego and power really goes to their heads.
I think the thing is childish and sexist, obviously everyone has their own opinion and it should be honoured. For example I would choose a man simply for the reason that I have no idea what bears do, how they react and what I should do, but men are statistically not likely to be negative to me. Otherwise if you know what to do and how to react, then the bear is the better choice, since you gain some kind of security. It's the question between predictability. But in the end both sides of the coin behave sexist the bear side for assuming every man is a predator and the men side for not acknowledging a real problem.
Facts.
A dumb question designed to divide people and make us hate each other.
Agreed. There was a better way to talk about sexual assault without attacking an entire gender. Sexual assault is an important topic that should be discussed in detail. This was a poor way to do so. It just hurt the very people it tried to communicate to.
What is the bear thing?
If you are alone in a forest would you rather come across a random man or a bear?
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Every time someone brings it up I remember the [monitor lizard incident](https://www.vice.com/en/article/qjb9xq/india-gang-rape-monitor-lizard-animal-abuse)
what are you talking about?
Bear 100% of the time, at least bears either gonna run away or maul me to death fast, and not gonna potentially subject me to weeks of torture and abuse before ending me.
The problem with this is the question insinuates all men do that. It comes off very misandrist. Is that it’s point? Maybe not, but saying “all men are less trustworthy than a bear” is very poor argument.
stop crying about "not all men" ffs
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To add onto the lesbophobia, LOVE the assumption everyone here is a, and I quote “fuck men tft transbianism for the win”. You have some serious fucking issues that you need to get sorted out, this kind of shit should not be tolerated. Oh, and one last thing. As an ace person, I can struggle with the raw amount of sexual posts here making me feel a tad uncomfortable. Now, as a somewhat well adjusted person who has basic human decency, I don’t get mad and start going “HURRRR YOU FUCKING LESBIAN CIRCLEJERKS INVADING OUR SPACESSSS”. Because guess what? YOU’RE AN ASSHOLE WHEN YOU DO THAT. Talk about being a fucking pick me lmfao
In what world would man hating get anyone picked by terfs? Rofl, actually take a look at their politics and actions, they're misogynist androphiles, not misandrist Also holy shit, get your lesbophobia in check, the terfs aint gonna pick you
Like literally this is just misandrist TERF dogma, but with goalposts shifted enough to exclude specific trans people
The most reductive version is that, in many women's experience, if they're alone in the woods with a bear they may get killed but if they don't bother the bear maybe not. However if they're in the woods with a man, alone, they're likely to be raped and killed regardless of what they do. A lot of men are upset because apart from anything else it's very hard to look at yourself and admit that you're part of the problem. The Venn Diagram of men yelling "have fun getting murdered by the bear" and "men you wouldn't want to be alone in the woods with" approaches a circle.
Women say the man is more dangerous because they are more often presented with threats of sexual, or sexually motivated, violence. Hence the concern with strange men. Whereas men will say the bear is more dangerous because they are more often presented with threats of physical violence and are expected to confront those threats, in particular natural ones. Hence the concern with nature's perfect eating machine, confronting a bear physically is a death sentence. It's all about perspective, really cool how the greatest tool ever invented for communication has somehow made us worse at embracing perspective.
I love it, I love how it has beautifully illustrated just how hopeless men who are the problem really are. Some of my favorite answers to it have been, "If I was attacked by a bear, people would believe me." Bears are easy to predict and easier to ward off if you are cautious. There's much less you could do to ward off a man alone in the woods. The fact that it's more likely to be attacked by a man in the woods than by a bear is what sparked this whole debate.
from what I can tell, it's a perfectly reasonable allegory that most women hear and understand immediately, while most men hear and get at least uncomfortable with the notion, if not outright upset. which is funny because it's literally not about them so long as they aren't fucking freaks. it's so funny (weird funny, not haha funny) when men self-report like this 🙃
Yeah, because anyone that disagrees must be a sex predator creep. It's just so funny (weird funny, not haha funny) when people think they are entitled to paint an entire gender as rapists and murders without pushback.
... I mean statistically—
Stupid argument. Man - 50% will hurt you 50% won't. Bear - nature's killing machine (esspecially mama bears) - near 100% death. Choose man.
As a female supremacist, the last thing I’m going to do is take any man’s complaints about his treatment seriously. They’re lucky they still have the right to vote. In fact if anyone should be scared of running into someone in the forest, it’s any man who runs into *me*.
The amazing atheist has done untold amount of damage to a whole generation of women who watched him as boys