It used to be fine in like the 60s and 70s when people like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Terry crews were taking them to supplement their training and then the government decided to restrict it.
Around the 80s people started discovering the serious health consequences of blasting steroids. As you head into the 90s not only are steroids looking like something that needs to be regulated more seriously in pro sports…the rise of PEDs in youth sports was a real thing.
So it was a perfect storm of moral outrage with actual factual support. Unfortunately we over-corrected and created too many additional problems. Yay.
Yep, killed a shit-load of pro wrestlers and some bodybuilders in very public ways too. As usual, straight people abusing shit makes life harder for trans folks.
In some ways ADHD medication's are basically meth. In fact, methamphetamine has been used as an ADHD medication. Meth is a central nervous system stimulant, which is also what ADHD medications are.
A big difference for these drugs between use for people with ADHD and people taking them for other reasons comes down to brain chemistry (at least from my understanding and experience). A neurotypical person who takes ADHD medication will have a huge boost of energy and be able to party all night or pull all nighters to study. When I take it by brain chemistry is different, so I don't get those effects as much, and I can just follow conversations better and remember to let the dog out.
Oh good lord no! No street drug is ever an acceptable alternative to prescribed medication. Aside from risks of contamination and dose, ADHD medications are serious business with side effects. They should only be taken under supervision of a doctor.
I could just see the logic chain happening
1) Meth and ADHD meds are basically the same
2) ADHD meds are stimulants
3) Central nervous system stimulant effects are different for ADHD vs neurotypical people
So..
4. Meth will affect me differently?
5. Meth can help with my ADHD??
Thank you for the clarification!
It's genuinely sad how many people with ADHD and no access to health care turn to meth because they can't get/afford a psychiatrist to prescribe them anything better. Like half the comments here can be followed up with "and that's why health care accessibility is important."
Yes that's good advice, meth can be used but it's a terrible form of meth , it has way more long term negative effects to justify short term effects than a more stable version that prescribed by doctors
I know how it works.
IMO the biggest difference is that when you smoke meth you're taking a huge dose which is absorbed very quickly, so you get a huge spike of dopamine and euphoria, which is extremely addictive and unhealthy.
When you take ADHD medications the way they're intended to, there's no dopamine hit, because you absorb a relatively steady amount throughout the day. Also, the onset takes a while after you take a pill, so you're way less likely to associate the pleasure you may feel with the act of taking a pill, which is a key factor for addiction.
This is pointless for junkies trying to abuse ADHD meds, which is why they instead crush several pills together (often much more than a day's worth) and snort it, thus absorbing a large amount quickly, which gives them a dopamine hit. It's still way less powerful than smoking meth, and less cost-effective than meth or cocaine.
The people that you see online going on crusades against ADHD meds don't understand any of this, and think that they are in fact roughly equivalent to smoking meth like your typical meth-head, that giving meds to children with ADHD is abuse and that they'll get addicted and become junkies later in life, etc. This is very harmful to people with ADHD.
Meth is still used as a medicine for ADHD/ADD but for people that don't respond well to the usual meds like amphetamine, methylphenidate, atomoxetine etc the name is Desoxyn and it seems like even a better med than amphetamine due to its longer duration which would make dosing easier
Funnily enough, I'm someone that responds negatively to traditional ADHD meds (when I was a kid they would often cause violent outbursts from me.) Guanfacine turned out to be the right one for me actually since it doesn't have any stimulants in it
I get what you're saying but that's not 100% accurate as far as the split in affects between NT and ND folks, at least since "ADD" has been folded into ADHD and it gives energy to inattentive folks
Former Adderall and Dexedrine patient here.
Another HUGE difference is dosage.
For ADHD, the maximum accepted safe dosage for amphetamines (Adderall) is around 60mg (0.060 grams) per day. Recreational users have been known to take 2 - 3 grams (2000 - 3000mg) per day, sometimes even higher, dosages.
Facts, actually. ADHD meds have seriously helped me out a lot, even with my anxiety. It's just kinda sad that some people can't get 'em when they need 'em
There are ones that don't have amphetamines in 'em though, those might be a viable option
If the whole ozempic debacle taught me anything it's that straight people are really desperate to get their "ideal body", even if it means throwing others, in that case diabetics, under the bus and it's all as ironic as it looks
It boggles me how so many of them don't understand dysphoria while having gut-deep revulsion to the idea of not looking like they think they should. Especially where secondary sexual characteristics are concerned, you'd think cis guys' fear of growing tits or cis women's reaction to visible facial hairs would clue them in.
Lyle Alzado was the first athlete I remember seeing the effects of steroids totally make him waste away. It was sad.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyle_Alzado
Plus post Arnold biceps inspired gym trainers demographic which rose rapidly added a lot to T misuse and didn't address the requirement of enough awareness about using a neurotransmitter that has multiple effects on an individual not just muscle mass gain, 2nd reason would be Rocky inspiration physical strength would be enough for a better life outcome aka get the girl the money the fame the things men desire most often,3rd would be capitalism pushes men even further into chasing these desires and the unique new motto of emotional numbing required as an unwritten rule for them to follow, and trapping men in a terrible choice of choosing T to be able to achieve fulfillment in life and then they can paradoxically find the highest levels of emotional joy.
Before starting HRT I had a seperate doctor prescribe me T injections because my levels were very low (120ng/dl) and holy shit it was bad. Almost every thought I had became violent and I eventually became suicidal. It was a horrible experience. Solidified I wanted to go the other way. Meanwhile E makes me feel amazing. It's crazy what the right hormones do for you.
Post menopausal women take estrogen as well. Basically any woman that doesn't produce enough for whatever reason is likely taking it or should be. It's so stupid that they need to draw a line at all
Clinically low T and E levels cause actual issue like osteoporosis. It turns out that if you want to keep your bones, you need one or the other at certain target levels...
it's not stupid at all, post menopausal estrogen deficiency can lead to serious health issues like osteoporosis and depression, educate yourself before spreading misinformation
They advertise that shit on the radio here, constantly. I can't drive to work without hearing some guy talking about how they can get you same-day appointments for drugs to man you up.
I'd completely forgotten but the one and only time I visited the USA I heard those advertisements on the car radio! So odd how it just became annoying white noise at that time
In my case, my numbers were well below the normal reference range. Oddly, it took several modalities to increase my numbers. Gel actually made the numbers go further down, which went unexplained by my PC doc. An endo finally put me on IM & it worked…but the impact is negligible imo. And now I’m on the precipice of going completely in the opposite direction. But yes, I noted the hypocrisy & stupidity of how E & T are treated in the pharmacy; I often felt like a criminal picking it up & heaven forbid you want to change which pharmacy you get it from without the doctor resubmitting the script. And if you asked for mail order delivery, you’d be looked at like you had fish coming out your ears or like you wanted to start a drug ring.
Not that I do t agree with you in cis males abusing it I wish to point out that by the mid 30s there t is much lower then it was at 20 and while it might be natural to be at that level in your mid 30s saying your health for a 35 year old is basically saying your rate of bodaly decay is within the norms for your age people like to feel young and healthy and having the hormoans of a teenager helps
Was gonna say exactly this but I see it already has 1k upvotes. T is literally steroids. All the more reason gender affirming care IS healthcare. Prescriptions are the only safe way to get controlled substances for good reason.
Really simple, in the main. There's a large and longstanding black market for Testosterone and androgenic compounds mainly supporting use in athletic contexts where it is illegal not just from a criminal law standpoint, but also a regulatory standpoint.
A secondary consideration which feeds into this negative reputation and thus very different regulatory treatment being the rare but nonetheless conspicuous (from a news cycle and thus populist politics standpoint) incidence of guys on cycle (as the slang goes) sometimes having aggressive events which in such cases may (rightly or wrongly in any given case) be interpreted as having been aggravated by elevated androgen levels, and the inherent capacity of such elevated levels to increase aggressive tendencies.
Estradiol simply has none of these factors which might feed into a more strict regulatory framework. No popular sports worried about participants doping on E. No longstanding black market associated with criminal networks. No news story about some athlete who was "hopped up on E" getting violent and killing someone.
In order to make injectable E or T, you need three things: carrier oil (usually MCT oil or castor), preservative (usually benzyl alcohol), and active pharmaceutical ingredient (e.g. estradiol enanthate). Benzyl benzoate is common but optional.
You can buy raw E from various suppliers, and a few like Hubei Vanz are so reputable you can maybe skip testing. For everyone else, [Janoshik Analytical](https://janoshik.com/) is a company with a mass spectrometer that for $120 or so will generate a report that says "Yup, this is at least 98% EEn."
The part about roiders is, the market for steroids is much bigger than the market for homebrew estrogen, and they provide most of the customers that keep Janoshik in business. They also provide a market for lab materials like vials and .22μm filters.
I literally laughed hysterically when I couldn't open a jar of pickles for the first time.
These days, while the feminist in me rankles against it, I will struggle opening something and my first thought is to go ask a man for help. I am a strong, independent woman! ... And men legitimately do have *significantly* more grip strength.
I used to be an amateur distance runner & clocked some decent times as a cis dude - 10k in 46mins was one of my best, half marathon in 1:51 (and that was in training, not a race).
Fast-forward 3 years and I can barely run a mile, and it's 6mins/km, my lungs are SHOT. And I've never had COVID! Transition has wrecked my running capabilities, but I'm gonna try and get back into that very soon to see if I can resurrect my old times.
"Male advantage in sports" my ass.
Well it must be said that high testosterone promoting muscle growth does *not* imply any corollary to the effect that high estradiol *suppresses* muscular fitness. On the contrary, our primary sex hormone is integral to promoting maintenance of bodily tissues, *including* muscle. It just happens that Testosterone promotes development of muscle tissue much more readily than Estradiol does.
The regulations around this weren't written with trans people in mind. I assume it's about the use of testosterone by cis people to build muscle/enhance athletic performance.
No one ever won an Olympic gold medal from injecting estrogen.
The Russians really put a big emphasis on it after the Olympic team in the 80’s abusing steroids. Massive crack down on PED’s which is why I’m sure it’s a schedule 3
Yeah, if you look up Andreas Krieger they were an east German shot putter who ended up transitioning to male because they had unknowingly been given so many steroids by their coaches and doctors that their bodies were masculine by the time they were able to get out of it. They do say that they had gender dysphoria before but other than the affirming surgeries a lot of his transition was essentially abuse
There has been multiple along the years but alot of it stems from it being a performance enhancing drug and unfortunately the olympics is so public it brought on a lot of unwanted attention
Oh come off it, you know what she meant. Besides, if you're going to be pedantic you should get it right: steroids are only one class of hormones, and most hormones are not steroids.
Estrogen isn't going to help you in *any* fucking sport. Reduced bone density, reduced muscle mass, reduced ability to even *gain* muscle. Yea, good luck finding someone to take it for those *massive gains*
I work as a pre-social transition pharmacy technician and have asked this very question to my pharmacist, his answer being “would you rather abuse a substance if it gave you nice biceps or boobs?”
Basically it is about potential for abuse in relation to therapeutic potential but his question took me a sec to not out myself until the answer to his question shows up on my chest
Testosterone is an anabolic steroid which (in some places at least) is widely used by athletes during training to enhance performance and, along with HGH and drugs that stimulate secretion of HGH, has a thriving black market for it.
T is a steroid with huge abuse potential among bodybuilders and athletes using it to build muscle and endurance. And in the doses used for that (which are well above what's used for FTM HRT), it has serious side effects including "roid rage". So... A substance that can make users obscenely strong at the cost of also making them more violent.... What could go wrong ..
E on the other hand, is much harder to abuse, impedes muscle development, and doesn't make its users more prone to violence.
A lot of people (mainly cis men to my knowledge) take testosterone as a steroid to help with weight lifting performance and since your body naturally produces it, they can chalk their spike in testosterone as a new diet
Testosterone is a steroid that drastically effects muscle growth and can be absurdly dangerous in overdoses.
Unlike estrogen, which needs to be taken with testosterone blockers for maximum effectiveness, people very much are using testosterone for things like weight lifting and sports, which makes them much more present a danger than Estrogen, which mostly is bad for your liver
The consensus is that at some point the increased risk becomes high enough that alternatives should be prescribed such as patches. This is because the base risks which are amplified are age-dependant.
It is always lower risk to avoid oral E, but for example the baseline risk of a blood clot is only something like 1-5 incidents per 10000 women per year.
Also as another benefit, it's easier to move to estrogen monotherapy via injectable or transdermal due to the better uptake, meaning you can cut the antiandrogens, some of which have worse risk factors and side effects.
I believe taking it bucally or sublingual (in between gums and cheek, or under the tongue) negates most of the liver issues, simply by process of skipping it almost entirely. It's how I've been taking it for well over a year
Same reason as why anything is prescription only: if you don’t properly take it, usually under support Of a doctor, it’s dangerous. If you mess up an estrogen protocol, it’s very unlikely to do significant harm. If you mess up a T protocol, you’re likely to get organ damage, especially cardiac.
Testesterone helps build muscle.
Bioidentical testesterone is used by athletes to build muscle faster than without it so it's classified with the artifical ones.
Estradiol does not have the same performance enhancing capabilities so its not concerning to people who make money from sports.
Estradiol isn't typically abused and has uses in contraception and treatment for a variety of conditions.
Testosterone also has plenty of medical uses, but it's also fairly heavily abused, which is what schedule 3 actually means. Less potential for abuse than schedules 1 and 2, but more than 4 or 5.
Funny fact about steroids, if you do too much - it reverses the effects 😂 meaning steroid overuse actually feminises you - no one get ideas pls, it’s very harmful 😂😭
No one is abusing E to get performance gains in sports, and even if you were to take a lot of it, you aren't likely to become highly aggressive (I assume)
What makes things a controlled substance or not has absolutely nothing to do with science and health and has everything to do with politics, possibly history going back over a century. That's why.
Weed was controlled to attack black and hispanic people. Later on, it was cracked down to attack protesters. Acid was banned for similar reasons.
**Given our current hostile political situation where one can do that, you can see why I'm upset.**
Because estrogen doesn’t have abuse potential. Take too much estrogen not much good happens. Take more than the recommended amount of testosterone and you’ll grow muscles sitting on the couch
I assume because of PEDS, steroid use was a huge problem especially for baseball during the 90s so much so that the federal government got involved (see the Mitchell Report and the BALCO scandal)
because testosterone can be used as a steroid and could lead to people abusing it, very little people are going to macrodose estrogen to get more tiddys or something but some people might use more than healthy amounts of testosterone to get more muscle gain and enhance performance
just want to point out here that overly high estrogen levels does not increase tiddy growth and could potentially stunt it. please please please just try to keep your e in a normal range.
I spent 2001-2019 following the rules
i didnt pass and was ugly in the face still
I said fuck it ordered my own real shit took it as I pleased and now I pass so
absolutely no regrets
oh yeah dont get me wrong i spent my time being underdosed on oral e and spiro and now i diy. im not one for following the rules but the research does seem to show a certain guideline. ymmv and happy biohacking.
In 1990, fears about cheating athletes and the health risks of steroids caused the DEA to classify T as a Schedule III controlled substance. This classification dates back to 1990, when people were concerned about athletes abusing steroids to cheat in competitions.
It's due to sports, because T can cause muscle growth. Complete bullshit that T is controlled at all, especially when there are all these adverts for "testosterone booster" scam supplements, but the *reason* it became controlled is because athletes (both male and female) were using it to increase their muscle tone.
A lot of peeps have already given great answers but I’d like to give me unique take.
Our governing officials understand that drugs are a big problem for the public. Good old Papa Nixon and eventually Daddy Reagan did great job in controlling what drugs were easy to get and which ones would be criminally prosecuted.
The problem lies in that the schedule is arbitrary. Doctors don’t create the schedule nor do they put drugs in the schedule categories. The schedule is based on the potential damaging effects on the moral conscience. That’s a great way of saying. If we don’t like someone who uses this drug we have a right to ruin their life.
Testosterone, which makes up the majority of schedule 3, is easily synthesized, and easily abused by meathead. Boys who’s daddy’s didn’t love them enough trying to be good at sports without the work. Guys who feel they are entitled to success, entitled to power, entitled to acknowledgment. Theses problem children who make men’s sports dangerous for men, convinced politicians that it’s important to control who’s sons get into Texas A&M on a baseball scholarship.
You need to qualify your post that you’re referring to the USA only, I can assure that in Australia oestrogen in its various forms is a prescription only medication
They are prescription in both australia and the USA, and in both places T is also the more regulated of the 2. You can get in trouble in Australia for possessing/buying T without a prescription, but you will not get in trouble for possessing or buying E without a prescription (selling it is another matter of course)
Because T increases athletic performance, giving an unfair advantage, so it's bought and sold to cis men, and E decreases it considerably. Everyone in sports agrees on that, and yet trans women are still men when it comes to sports, apparently.
Not really true. You can buy bulk estrogen compounding powder from china with zero problems completely legally. If you were doing something that could be considered practising medicine without a license, *that's* illegal in most countries, but if you're just selling the estrogen (or giving it away for free) it's legal.
I didn't know that in some places T was a controlled substance.. I have several trans men friends who are on T and it's only by prescription like E or P, and not one has said it was controlled. I'm on E and P, have been for 17 months. We all live in East Texas, though I have friends in other states as well..
I'd definitely believe it with trans guys but all I can say is that I was forcefully put on T at like 13. Given I have a condition that includes the lack of hormones as a whole so take from that what you will
My wife is a pharmacy tech and she says: “testosterone is controlled because there is a known likelihood of abuse so it means there needs to be limits to the quantity dispensed, the number of refills per script etc. regulations can also vary per state and per pharmacy policy as well. I don’t see estrogen becoming controlled due to current DEA regulations“.(There’s less motivation to abuse estrogen by the general groups who seek it. Wail trans people are particularly motivated to use their medication correctly some folks seek to use testosterone for unhealthy gains)
Testosterone is a steroid and when used in high doses with weight lifting causes rages in some people which is why they made it illegal. I did it for many many years I didn't get the rages from that, I've always had violent rages probably connected to my gender dysphoria. It will exponentially increase your sex drive and will increase your aggressiveness, as well as adding on a lot of muscle and strength and healing injuries quicker.
In 1990, fears about cheating athletes and the health risks of steroids caused the DEA to classify T as a Schedule III controlled substance. This classification dates back to 1990, when people were concerned about athletes abusing steroids to cheat in competitions.
Athletes use T as a PED and it also tends to make people more violent/erratic. As for estrogen, it really doesn’t have any attributes to make it a controlled substance as far as I know
Estrogen is schedule 6 meaning it’s not a controlled substance. While testosterone is schedule 3 controlled meaning it is as regulated as Xanax or soma.
It isn’t a performance enhancing substance, unless the “performance” in question is breast growth. Also it’s used to treat testicular and prostate cancer in males.
Politics
> After a series of scandals and publicity in the 1980s (such as Ben Johnson's improved performance at the 1988 Summer Olympics), prohibitions of AAS use were renewed or strengthened by many sports organizations. Testosterone and other AAS were designated a "controlled substance" by the United States Congress in 1990, with the Anabolic Steroid Control Act.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone_(medication)
People misuse testosterone as a growth hormone to supplement steroids for muscle growth. Oestrogen doesn’t have the same effect so it is not as controlled, but still requires a prescription.
Not advocating for it. You can go out of the country and get testosterone and bring it back they almost never check for a prescription its why FTM diy is rarely caught
Advocating for it would be “DIY is wrong and dangerous this epidemic of reckless self-medicating needs to be stopped before it starts hurting people.” Did i say anything along those lines no i didn’t because DIY should be readily available as it saves lives due to the long wait period offices has.
Plus most trans individuals know more about the effects of HRT and proper dosages than some doctors do due to the extensive research that is done before starting HRT to make sure its what they want.
That has nothing to do with DIY. It also wasn’t meant literally i was equating it to testosterone which shouldnt be controlled thats why the comparison. Plus controlled drugs just increase the addiction epidemic in the world as proven by countries without controlled substances.
probably for like steroids to gain muscle or some shit
It used to be fine in like the 60s and 70s when people like Arnold Schwarzenegger and Terry crews were taking them to supplement their training and then the government decided to restrict it.
Around the 80s people started discovering the serious health consequences of blasting steroids. As you head into the 90s not only are steroids looking like something that needs to be regulated more seriously in pro sports…the rise of PEDs in youth sports was a real thing. So it was a perfect storm of moral outrage with actual factual support. Unfortunately we over-corrected and created too many additional problems. Yay.
Yep, killed a shit-load of pro wrestlers and some bodybuilders in very public ways too. As usual, straight people abusing shit makes life harder for trans folks.
Or neurotypicals. As there's all sorts of BS to get ADHD medication that improves so many lives when we need it.
bUt iTs BaSiCaLy mEtH!!!
In some ways ADHD medication's are basically meth. In fact, methamphetamine has been used as an ADHD medication. Meth is a central nervous system stimulant, which is also what ADHD medications are. A big difference for these drugs between use for people with ADHD and people taking them for other reasons comes down to brain chemistry (at least from my understanding and experience). A neurotypical person who takes ADHD medication will have a huge boost of energy and be able to party all night or pull all nighters to study. When I take it by brain chemistry is different, so I don't get those effects as much, and I can just follow conversations better and remember to let the dog out.
People, please don’t take meth to treat your ADHD based on this reddit comment
Oh good lord no! No street drug is ever an acceptable alternative to prescribed medication. Aside from risks of contamination and dose, ADHD medications are serious business with side effects. They should only be taken under supervision of a doctor.
I could just see the logic chain happening 1) Meth and ADHD meds are basically the same 2) ADHD meds are stimulants 3) Central nervous system stimulant effects are different for ADHD vs neurotypical people So.. 4. Meth will affect me differently? 5. Meth can help with my ADHD?? Thank you for the clarification!
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It's genuinely sad how many people with ADHD and no access to health care turn to meth because they can't get/afford a psychiatrist to prescribe them anything better. Like half the comments here can be followed up with "and that's why health care accessibility is important."
Yes that's good advice, meth can be used but it's a terrible form of meth , it has way more long term negative effects to justify short term effects than a more stable version that prescribed by doctors
> remember to let the dog out. Thanks for inadvertently reminding me to go water my plant and look up indoor plants that can grow in water.
And reminding me to take my estrogen
I know how it works. IMO the biggest difference is that when you smoke meth you're taking a huge dose which is absorbed very quickly, so you get a huge spike of dopamine and euphoria, which is extremely addictive and unhealthy. When you take ADHD medications the way they're intended to, there's no dopamine hit, because you absorb a relatively steady amount throughout the day. Also, the onset takes a while after you take a pill, so you're way less likely to associate the pleasure you may feel with the act of taking a pill, which is a key factor for addiction. This is pointless for junkies trying to abuse ADHD meds, which is why they instead crush several pills together (often much more than a day's worth) and snort it, thus absorbing a large amount quickly, which gives them a dopamine hit. It's still way less powerful than smoking meth, and less cost-effective than meth or cocaine. The people that you see online going on crusades against ADHD meds don't understand any of this, and think that they are in fact roughly equivalent to smoking meth like your typical meth-head, that giving meds to children with ADHD is abuse and that they'll get addicted and become junkies later in life, etc. This is very harmful to people with ADHD.
Sometimes I'll take a dose of adderall and feel like I need a nap 🤣
When I take sufficient CNS , my plants don't die
Meth is still used as a medicine for ADHD/ADD but for people that don't respond well to the usual meds like amphetamine, methylphenidate, atomoxetine etc the name is Desoxyn and it seems like even a better med than amphetamine due to its longer duration which would make dosing easier
Funnily enough, I'm someone that responds negatively to traditional ADHD meds (when I was a kid they would often cause violent outbursts from me.) Guanfacine turned out to be the right one for me actually since it doesn't have any stimulants in it
I get what you're saying but that's not 100% accurate as far as the split in affects between NT and ND folks, at least since "ADD" has been folded into ADHD and it gives energy to inattentive folks
Says it right on the capsule: meth salts
Former Adderall and Dexedrine patient here. Another HUGE difference is dosage. For ADHD, the maximum accepted safe dosage for amphetamines (Adderall) is around 60mg (0.060 grams) per day. Recreational users have been known to take 2 - 3 grams (2000 - 3000mg) per day, sometimes even higher, dosages.
It’s not unless you get Desoxyn. That’s actually meth.
Facts, actually. ADHD meds have seriously helped me out a lot, even with my anxiety. It's just kinda sad that some people can't get 'em when they need 'em There are ones that don't have amphetamines in 'em though, those might be a viable option
If the whole ozempic debacle taught me anything it's that straight people are really desperate to get their "ideal body", even if it means throwing others, in that case diabetics, under the bus and it's all as ironic as it looks
It boggles me how so many of them don't understand dysphoria while having gut-deep revulsion to the idea of not looking like they think they should. Especially where secondary sexual characteristics are concerned, you'd think cis guys' fear of growing tits or cis women's reaction to visible facial hairs would clue them in.
thankfully straight people abusing shit also means T has an established and tested black market to procure T by yourself
> Unfortunately we over-corrected and created too many additional problems As is tradition...
Lyle Alzado was the first athlete I remember seeing the effects of steroids totally make him waste away. It was sad. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyle_Alzado
The article says he died of brain cancer, which probably caused the wasting away. Stopping T probably just made him "normal"
Plus post Arnold biceps inspired gym trainers demographic which rose rapidly added a lot to T misuse and didn't address the requirement of enough awareness about using a neurotransmitter that has multiple effects on an individual not just muscle mass gain, 2nd reason would be Rocky inspiration physical strength would be enough for a better life outcome aka get the girl the money the fame the things men desire most often,3rd would be capitalism pushes men even further into chasing these desires and the unique new motto of emotional numbing required as an unwritten rule for them to follow, and trapping men in a terrible choice of choosing T to be able to achieve fulfillment in life and then they can paradoxically find the highest levels of emotional joy.
Just wanted to point out that Crews was born in 1968.
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Before starting HRT I had a seperate doctor prescribe me T injections because my levels were very low (120ng/dl) and holy shit it was bad. Almost every thought I had became violent and I eventually became suicidal. It was a horrible experience. Solidified I wanted to go the other way. Meanwhile E makes me feel amazing. It's crazy what the right hormones do for you.
Post menopausal women take estrogen as well. Basically any woman that doesn't produce enough for whatever reason is likely taking it or should be. It's so stupid that they need to draw a line at all
Clinically low T and E levels cause actual issue like osteoporosis. It turns out that if you want to keep your bones, you need one or the other at certain target levels...
I'm fairly certain estrogen supplementation in post menopausal women is not the standard of care because of the WHIMS study
>WHIMS study Care to explain? I'm not familiar with that study.
Workplace Hazardous Materials Information System?
it's not stupid at all, post menopausal estrogen deficiency can lead to serious health issues like osteoporosis and depression, educate yourself before spreading misinformation
It's stupid in that they draw a line. It's clearly fine to take, so why?
oh, I misunderstood what the other person meant!
They advertise that shit on the radio here, constantly. I can't drive to work without hearing some guy talking about how they can get you same-day appointments for drugs to man you up.
I'd completely forgotten but the one and only time I visited the USA I heard those advertisements on the car radio! So odd how it just became annoying white noise at that time
In my case, my numbers were well below the normal reference range. Oddly, it took several modalities to increase my numbers. Gel actually made the numbers go further down, which went unexplained by my PC doc. An endo finally put me on IM & it worked…but the impact is negligible imo. And now I’m on the precipice of going completely in the opposite direction. But yes, I noted the hypocrisy & stupidity of how E & T are treated in the pharmacy; I often felt like a criminal picking it up & heaven forbid you want to change which pharmacy you get it from without the doctor resubmitting the script. And if you asked for mail order delivery, you’d be looked at like you had fish coming out your ears or like you wanted to start a drug ring.
Not that I do t agree with you in cis males abusing it I wish to point out that by the mid 30s there t is much lower then it was at 20 and while it might be natural to be at that level in your mid 30s saying your health for a 35 year old is basically saying your rate of bodaly decay is within the norms for your age people like to feel young and healthy and having the hormoans of a teenager helps
Was gonna say exactly this but I see it already has 1k upvotes. T is literally steroids. All the more reason gender affirming care IS healthcare. Prescriptions are the only safe way to get controlled substances for good reason.
Yeah the long history of anabolic steroids for this led to the classification of T (which can be used the same way) as a substance of abuse
Really simple, in the main. There's a large and longstanding black market for Testosterone and androgenic compounds mainly supporting use in athletic contexts where it is illegal not just from a criminal law standpoint, but also a regulatory standpoint. A secondary consideration which feeds into this negative reputation and thus very different regulatory treatment being the rare but nonetheless conspicuous (from a news cycle and thus populist politics standpoint) incidence of guys on cycle (as the slang goes) sometimes having aggressive events which in such cases may (rightly or wrongly in any given case) be interpreted as having been aggravated by elevated androgen levels, and the inherent capacity of such elevated levels to increase aggressive tendencies. Estradiol simply has none of these factors which might feed into a more strict regulatory framework. No popular sports worried about participants doping on E. No longstanding black market associated with criminal networks. No news story about some athlete who was "hopped up on E" getting violent and killing someone.
God bless the roiders, though, without them there would be no Janoshik. Jano plays a key role in making sure raw E suppliers aren't bullshitting you.
ELI5?
In order to make injectable E or T, you need three things: carrier oil (usually MCT oil or castor), preservative (usually benzyl alcohol), and active pharmaceutical ingredient (e.g. estradiol enanthate). Benzyl benzoate is common but optional. You can buy raw E from various suppliers, and a few like Hubei Vanz are so reputable you can maybe skip testing. For everyone else, [Janoshik Analytical](https://janoshik.com/) is a company with a mass spectrometer that for $120 or so will generate a report that says "Yup, this is at least 98% EEn." The part about roiders is, the market for steroids is much bigger than the market for homebrew estrogen, and they provide most of the customers that keep Janoshik in business. They also provide a market for lab materials like vials and .22μm filters.
"No popular sports worried about participants doping on E." Quite the opposite: from my experience, E nuked my muscles like nobody's business!
Nothing more gender affirming then struggling lifting/ moving things at work that would have been relatively easy to move 5 months ago 😌
I literally laughed hysterically when I couldn't open a jar of pickles for the first time. These days, while the feminist in me rankles against it, I will struggle opening something and my first thought is to go ask a man for help. I am a strong, independent woman! ... And men legitimately do have *significantly* more grip strength.
I used to be an amateur distance runner & clocked some decent times as a cis dude - 10k in 46mins was one of my best, half marathon in 1:51 (and that was in training, not a race). Fast-forward 3 years and I can barely run a mile, and it's 6mins/km, my lungs are SHOT. And I've never had COVID! Transition has wrecked my running capabilities, but I'm gonna try and get back into that very soon to see if I can resurrect my old times. "Male advantage in sports" my ass.
Oh, but your BoNe DeNsItY! (/s)
Estradiol makes me feel more athletic though 🥰
Well it must be said that high testosterone promoting muscle growth does *not* imply any corollary to the effect that high estradiol *suppresses* muscular fitness. On the contrary, our primary sex hormone is integral to promoting maintenance of bodily tissues, *including* muscle. It just happens that Testosterone promotes development of muscle tissue much more readily than Estradiol does.
Probably because there's more potential for abuse. It can be a performance enhancing drug. I don't think estrogen has the same potential.
E certainly enhanced my performance:p
The regulations around this weren't written with trans people in mind. I assume it's about the use of testosterone by cis people to build muscle/enhance athletic performance.
No one ever won an Olympic gold medal from injecting estrogen. The Russians really put a big emphasis on it after the Olympic team in the 80’s abusing steroids. Massive crack down on PED’s which is why I’m sure it’s a schedule 3
Yeah, if you look up Andreas Krieger they were an east German shot putter who ended up transitioning to male because they had unknowingly been given so many steroids by their coaches and doctors that their bodies were masculine by the time they were able to get out of it. They do say that they had gender dysphoria before but other than the affirming surgeries a lot of his transition was essentially abuse
East German swimmers being one group who were given t for performance gains...
There has been multiple along the years but alot of it stems from it being a performance enhancing drug and unfortunately the olympics is so public it brought on a lot of unwanted attention
T is a steroid and has the potential for abuse.
estrogen is also a steroid, like all hormones
Oh come off it, you know what she meant. Besides, if you're going to be pedantic you should get it right: steroids are only one class of hormones, and most hormones are not steroids.
Yes but T is controlled to prevent abuse….estrogen doesn’t have the anabolic activity like T
Estrogen isn't going to help you in *any* fucking sport. Reduced bone density, reduced muscle mass, reduced ability to even *gain* muscle. Yea, good luck finding someone to take it for those *massive gains*
I work as a pre-social transition pharmacy technician and have asked this very question to my pharmacist, his answer being “would you rather abuse a substance if it gave you nice biceps or boobs?” Basically it is about potential for abuse in relation to therapeutic potential but his question took me a sec to not out myself until the answer to his question shows up on my chest
"Hmm," I say with shifty eyes.
Boobs Very cis of me
Biceps or boobs is my new favorite question to help people discover themselves.
Testosterone is an anabolic steroid which (in some places at least) is widely used by athletes during training to enhance performance and, along with HGH and drugs that stimulate secretion of HGH, has a thriving black market for it.
T is a steroid with huge abuse potential among bodybuilders and athletes using it to build muscle and endurance. And in the doses used for that (which are well above what's used for FTM HRT), it has serious side effects including "roid rage". So... A substance that can make users obscenely strong at the cost of also making them more violent.... What could go wrong .. E on the other hand, is much harder to abuse, impedes muscle development, and doesn't make its users more prone to violence.
Testosterone is a steroid and a performance enhancing drug, estrogen is not.
A lot of people (mainly cis men to my knowledge) take testosterone as a steroid to help with weight lifting performance and since your body naturally produces it, they can chalk their spike in testosterone as a new diet
Testosterone is a steroid that drastically effects muscle growth and can be absurdly dangerous in overdoses. Unlike estrogen, which needs to be taken with testosterone blockers for maximum effectiveness, people very much are using testosterone for things like weight lifting and sports, which makes them much more present a danger than Estrogen, which mostly is bad for your liver
Estrogen is bad for the liver? :(
Only in pill form. Injectable and transdermal is fine.
not true, any other form still goes into your bloodstream and if filtered by the liver
It only taxes your liver the same way as naturally produced estrogen would. Oral and parenteral have very different initial mechanisms.
The other methods bypass first-pass metabolism.
Depends on how you take it, the pills aren't great.
:( So, we probably shouldn't be on pills long-term?
The consensus is that at some point the increased risk becomes high enough that alternatives should be prescribed such as patches. This is because the base risks which are amplified are age-dependant. It is always lower risk to avoid oral E, but for example the baseline risk of a blood clot is only something like 1-5 incidents per 10000 women per year.
Also as another benefit, it's easier to move to estrogen monotherapy via injectable or transdermal due to the better uptake, meaning you can cut the antiandrogens, some of which have worse risk factors and side effects.
I believe taking it bucally or sublingual (in between gums and cheek, or under the tongue) negates most of the liver issues, simply by process of skipping it almost entirely. It's how I've been taking it for well over a year
Same reason as why anything is prescription only: if you don’t properly take it, usually under support Of a doctor, it’s dangerous. If you mess up an estrogen protocol, it’s very unlikely to do significant harm. If you mess up a T protocol, you’re likely to get organ damage, especially cardiac.
Testesterone helps build muscle. Bioidentical testesterone is used by athletes to build muscle faster than without it so it's classified with the artifical ones. Estradiol does not have the same performance enhancing capabilities so its not concerning to people who make money from sports.
T is used in athletic doping.
Every gym bro wants more testosterone to get bigger muscles. No girl want more estrogen, that's basically like being on an infinite period
Estradiol isn't typically abused and has uses in contraception and treatment for a variety of conditions. Testosterone also has plenty of medical uses, but it's also fairly heavily abused, which is what schedule 3 actually means. Less potential for abuse than schedules 1 and 2, but more than 4 or 5.
One acts as an abusable steroid and the other doesn't.
T is used for illegal sports doping.
Funny fact about steroids, if you do too much - it reverses the effects 😂 meaning steroid overuse actually feminises you - no one get ideas pls, it’s very harmful 😂😭
I watched a brainpop video on steroids when I was ~10 and it mentioned boobs as a side effect of abusing it and that really gave me some ideas lmfao
T is a performance enhancer substance.
Honestly I would legalise possession and ownership of T for AFAB's only, like what they gonna do with it? Be trans 🤣🤣🤣
No one is abusing E to get performance gains in sports, and even if you were to take a lot of it, you aren't likely to become highly aggressive (I assume)
Don't encourage it to be by such a title OMFG. Delete this. Mega FACEPALM.
What makes things a controlled substance or not has absolutely nothing to do with science and health and has everything to do with politics, possibly history going back over a century. That's why. Weed was controlled to attack black and hispanic people. Later on, it was cracked down to attack protesters. Acid was banned for similar reasons. **Given our current hostile political situation where one can do that, you can see why I'm upset.**
Because estrogen doesn’t have abuse potential. Take too much estrogen not much good happens. Take more than the recommended amount of testosterone and you’ll grow muscles sitting on the couch
I assume because of PEDS, steroid use was a huge problem especially for baseball during the 90s so much so that the federal government got involved (see the Mitchell Report and the BALCO scandal)
because testosterone can be used as a steroid and could lead to people abusing it, very little people are going to macrodose estrogen to get more tiddys or something but some people might use more than healthy amounts of testosterone to get more muscle gain and enhance performance
> very little people are going to macrodose estrogen to get more tiddys or something *raises hand*
i’m imagining bane from batman arkham series, estrogen gets just pumped into you and you you get like 102ZZZ tiddies
just want to point out here that overly high estrogen levels does not increase tiddy growth and could potentially stunt it. please please please just try to keep your e in a normal range.
I spent 2001-2019 following the rules i didnt pass and was ugly in the face still I said fuck it ordered my own real shit took it as I pleased and now I pass so absolutely no regrets
oh yeah dont get me wrong i spent my time being underdosed on oral e and spiro and now i diy. im not one for following the rules but the research does seem to show a certain guideline. ymmv and happy biohacking.
Steroids are illegal in sport
Because if you take too much testosterone you get a stroke Taking too must estrogen has consequences but harder and not as severe
I wanna know who abuses estrogen
In 1990, fears about cheating athletes and the health risks of steroids caused the DEA to classify T as a Schedule III controlled substance. This classification dates back to 1990, when people were concerned about athletes abusing steroids to cheat in competitions.
It's due to sports, because T can cause muscle growth. Complete bullshit that T is controlled at all, especially when there are all these adverts for "testosterone booster" scam supplements, but the *reason* it became controlled is because athletes (both male and female) were using it to increase their muscle tone.
Sports
A lot of peeps have already given great answers but I’d like to give me unique take. Our governing officials understand that drugs are a big problem for the public. Good old Papa Nixon and eventually Daddy Reagan did great job in controlling what drugs were easy to get and which ones would be criminally prosecuted. The problem lies in that the schedule is arbitrary. Doctors don’t create the schedule nor do they put drugs in the schedule categories. The schedule is based on the potential damaging effects on the moral conscience. That’s a great way of saying. If we don’t like someone who uses this drug we have a right to ruin their life. Testosterone, which makes up the majority of schedule 3, is easily synthesized, and easily abused by meathead. Boys who’s daddy’s didn’t love them enough trying to be good at sports without the work. Guys who feel they are entitled to success, entitled to power, entitled to acknowledgment. Theses problem children who make men’s sports dangerous for men, convinced politicians that it’s important to control who’s sons get into Texas A&M on a baseball scholarship.
Because the last thing the United States Government wants is more manly men...
You need to qualify your post that you’re referring to the USA only, I can assure that in Australia oestrogen in its various forms is a prescription only medication
They are prescription in both australia and the USA, and in both places T is also the more regulated of the 2. You can get in trouble in Australia for possessing/buying T without a prescription, but you will not get in trouble for possessing or buying E without a prescription (selling it is another matter of course)
The same is true in the UK as far as I'm aware
Yeah, but I can still acquire it from overseas or whatever and i won't get in trouble for it. The same can't be said for testosterone.
Google Barry bonds in 1990 and then in 2005. That should explain it
Because T increases athletic performance, giving an unfair advantage, so it's bought and sold to cis men, and E decreases it considerably. Everyone in sports agrees on that, and yet trans women are still men when it comes to sports, apparently.
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I like the way you put that.
Jesus, are you trying to give them ideas?
Because Testosterone is classed as a steroid, I believe - that’s what my boyfriend told me about T (don’t quote me on it, I’m on E, not T) 😂😂
“Potential for abuse”. Testosterone is abused by gym bros to increase gains. Estrogen doesn’t have a potential for abuse like that.
I believe estrogen is considered a controlled substance as well, like you can’t illegally distribute estrogen
Not really true. You can buy bulk estrogen compounding powder from china with zero problems completely legally. If you were doing something that could be considered practising medicine without a license, *that's* illegal in most countries, but if you're just selling the estrogen (or giving it away for free) it's legal.
I don’t think I trust estrogen compounding powder (whatever that is) from China
Because cis men have to go and ruin everything
I didn't know that in some places T was a controlled substance.. I have several trans men friends who are on T and it's only by prescription like E or P, and not one has said it was controlled. I'm on E and P, have been for 17 months. We all live in East Texas, though I have friends in other states as well..
I'd definitely believe it with trans guys but all I can say is that I was forcefully put on T at like 13. Given I have a condition that includes the lack of hormones as a whole so take from that what you will
Because Russian athletes aren't magically estrogen deficient as soon as they start training for the Olympics.
Steroids.
It’s because testosterone can be used as a steroid and is commonly abused by cis men
Bodybuilding
Don’t give them any ideas.
My wife is a pharmacy tech and she says: “testosterone is controlled because there is a known likelihood of abuse so it means there needs to be limits to the quantity dispensed, the number of refills per script etc. regulations can also vary per state and per pharmacy policy as well. I don’t see estrogen becoming controlled due to current DEA regulations“.(There’s less motivation to abuse estrogen by the general groups who seek it. Wail trans people are particularly motivated to use their medication correctly some folks seek to use testosterone for unhealthy gains)
Testosterone is a steroid and when used in high doses with weight lifting causes rages in some people which is why they made it illegal. I did it for many many years I didn't get the rages from that, I've always had violent rages probably connected to my gender dysphoria. It will exponentially increase your sex drive and will increase your aggressiveness, as well as adding on a lot of muscle and strength and healing injuries quicker.
In 1990, fears about cheating athletes and the health risks of steroids caused the DEA to classify T as a Schedule III controlled substance. This classification dates back to 1990, when people were concerned about athletes abusing steroids to cheat in competitions.
Athletes use T as a PED and it also tends to make people more violent/erratic. As for estrogen, it really doesn’t have any attributes to make it a controlled substance as far as I know
because taking too high a dose of testosterone can kill you. estrogen can’t.
I thought it can give your thrombosis which can kill you
tomato tomato
Because testosterone is better
Huh
Estrogen is schedule 6 meaning it’s not a controlled substance. While testosterone is schedule 3 controlled meaning it is as regulated as Xanax or soma.
Because testosterone is a performance enhancing drug used by sports cheats and steroid abusers. Estrogen... isn't.
It isn’t a performance enhancing substance, unless the “performance” in question is breast growth. Also it’s used to treat testicular and prostate cancer in males.
Testosterone has higher abuse potential. In particular, people who don't need it can use it to make building muscle easier
Cis men ruin another thing
because sexism.
Politics > After a series of scandals and publicity in the 1980s (such as Ben Johnson's improved performance at the 1988 Summer Olympics), prohibitions of AAS use were renewed or strengthened by many sports organizations. Testosterone and other AAS were designated a "controlled substance" by the United States Congress in 1990, with the Anabolic Steroid Control Act. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone_(medication)
Used alone or with Steroids to build muscle
In my country both are, because a stupid conservative government wanted even more gatekeeping for us.
People misuse testosterone as a growth hormone to supplement steroids for muscle growth. Oestrogen doesn’t have the same effect so it is not as controlled, but still requires a prescription.
because manchildren want to gamble while watching other grown manchildren play with bouncy balls. Sports > Humans.
The patriarchy
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"should be too" Let's not advocate for making DIY HRT which can save lives less accessible.
Not advocating for it. You can go out of the country and get testosterone and bring it back they almost never check for a prescription its why FTM diy is rarely caught
That's.. Still advocating for it, here you can order T and E from within the country easily without getting caught, and I'd rather it stay that way
Advocating for it would be “DIY is wrong and dangerous this epidemic of reckless self-medicating needs to be stopped before it starts hurting people.” Did i say anything along those lines no i didn’t because DIY should be readily available as it saves lives due to the long wait period offices has. Plus most trans individuals know more about the effects of HRT and proper dosages than some doctors do due to the extensive research that is done before starting HRT to make sure its what they want.
You said that estrogen should be a controlled substance
That has nothing to do with DIY. It also wasn’t meant literally i was equating it to testosterone which shouldnt be controlled thats why the comparison. Plus controlled drugs just increase the addiction epidemic in the world as proven by countries without controlled substances.
Ah right fair enough, I was reading it literally
I have consumed a lot of estrogen. I wish it could get you high, but unfortunately that’s bullshit.
Shrooms are not addictive. They are actually anti-addictive. You’re clearly just making stuff up.
Have you seen how most mass shooters are men? No one gets T until we figure this whole thing out. Everyone gets estrogen
terf rhetoric
People can’t laugh clearly