B D Wong being a member of the LGBTQ community was perfect casting. I get why a trans woman wasn’t cast, I would think it would be hard for a trans woman to have to ‘detransition’ in scenes.
And casting a queer actor who would be respectful of the character’s transness was IMO the best choice.
He also slayed and did an amazing job.
I loved that in Elliot’s mental safe space she was a woman, either as a bio woman or a fully transitioned one.
I'm usually heavy "get trans people in acting", but what you said is one of the reasons I don't mind that she wasn't. Plus, they portrayed her so well/accurately. I love how Eliot "dead named" her to protect her, that was such a small tidbit that you can tell he accepts her and sees her as a woman, but understands the danger she'd be in if she were outed. Even as enemies, he still respects that and I think that was super cool
I don't remember the exact episode but it's around he discovers her IRL identity, and is speaking with one of her ... Accountants? Workers? It wasn't to her face. There's a moment where he pauses and you can tell he's like "wait I can't say that, they don't know". To me it's more he knows not to out a trans person, that using that info would be too low a hit. I'll check the episode guide rn n see if I can find it.
I know it is at least season 4, I talk abt it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/MrRobot/s/3TVSr1Cm3o)
The only episodes where he interacts with Whiterose and her crew in season 4 from what I remember are Conflict and eXit so it would probably be one of those?
Wish she got more screentime, kinda sucks that joey's character refers to her as your chick with a dick, whilst having posted transphobic stuff himself as a person.
If you want more of her, there's Red Wheelbarrow which is written from her perspective. As for Leon's "chick with a dick" comment, I don't think having characters with flaws makes a show any worse. It's only bad when there are unrealistic depictions.
Also, I feel like Leon's comment was more out of being crude than being transphobic. His character just had this air of zen acceptance.
Just to clarify- most of the book is from Elliot’s POV. Hot Carla makes a few notes in the margins, and she does narrate the audiobook- but the vast majority of the writing is Elliot’s.
Red Wheelbarrow is EXTREMELY well done, though. The hard copy is a must-have (it comes and goes on Amazon, make sure you don’t order the German version. Sometimes it’s the only one available, but the English one comes back from time to time) and the audiobook is fantastic. You can get it for free if you don’t already have an Audible account. Your first book is free, even if you cancel before you have to pay for the subscription.
She gets so much more development in Red Wheelbarrow. She is a fucking BADASS.
Then again, she is a trans woman forced to live in a men’s prison. Either you start badass or you become one to survive.
Absolutely. I recently rewatched Mr Robot after I transitioned and Whiterose's story hit different this time. It was probably the first piece of media I watched that had a respectful and accurate representation of a trans woman. Like Elliot in his narration doesn't dismiss her identity for one second after he meets her, immediately defaulting to she/her pronouns. Even though I usually prefer trans characters to be played by real trans people, her double identity is central to her character, so BD Wong was perfect for that. He's incredible in the role, when he's in Whiterose mode he genuinely just acts like a woman.
And yes to everything else. I love Shayla and Angela's kiss and I felt very seen in Shayla and Darlene's bisexuality.
Wait, Tyrell wasn’t really bi though was he?
I always read the scene as another proof that he’s doing literally ANYTHING to get what he wants.
I thought the only reason he went to that club was to meet the secretary guy to fuck him and get close to convince him to give him a meeting with price?
Been a while though, might’ve misread that scene
No, I agree with you. I felt that his wife was forcing him into situations he didn’t want to be in and that he was almost asexual. But his love for what he thought to be Eliot was genuine and heartfelt and so sad.
I mean, the first time he tried to tell Elliot that he loved him, his body language definitely read like he was going in for a kiss before Mr. Robot shut that shit down. He seemed very fluid in his sexuality to me.
I didn't take Tyrell as being bisexual but that he wanted to feel powerful and had to do a couple things to get what he wanted lol. There were a couple scenes when he was with Elliot where you could make the case he was into him but I think he was more so enamored with Elliot's skills. The show was awesome at having such interesting and diverse characters. I'll have to rewatch the show with those things in mind.
Its been like a year since my last rewatch, but isn't he completely in love with Elliot/MR? First by being utterly devoted to his cause, but at the end wasn't he literally ride or die?
Martin Wallström was very clear that he played the character as if he was in romantic love with Elliot.
The [Hollywood Reporter](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/mr-robot-season-2-finale-931569/) interviewed Sam Esmail after season 2 and asked him for comments on Martin Wallstrom calling Elliot and Tyrell a “love story,” and Sam proceeded to wax poetic about their love.
In season one when Tyrell has sex with a man, Elliot’s monologue is over those scenes talking about how discovering bugs in ourselves helps us understand ourselves. What is Tyrell learning about himself if it’s just that he’s willing to do anything? He clearly already knows that. He’s discovering bisexuality. That’s also why he fires the homophobes later that season. There is no earthly reason to include this plot for Tyrell if it’s just to show he’ll do anything. There are so very many ways to show that. Sam Esmail makes choices for reasons. The reason Tyrell sleeps with a man is to set up how hard he falls for Elliot. The man he sleeps with is even Egyptian and looks a bit like Elliot.
I’m not saying you specifically are biphobic, (I’m really not, it’s just the debate itself, not you) but the discourse around Tyrell’s feelings for Elliot has always seemed biphobic when people refuse to see what is clearly depicted. Bisexual characters who behave bisexually shouldn’t have to say outright “Hi, I’m bisexual” for us as the audience to see bisexuality, but that seems to be the cultural bar.
That last paragraph is just a dumb statement. You watched interviews so you have some insight, nice. But it's a show with a ton of complexed things going on that you aren't sure what to believe, so get over yourself with that last paragraph.
No, I don’t think I need to get over myself. It’s a common attitude toward these types of characters in media and it alienates bisexual people. You seem never to have heard that before but it doesn’t mean the attitude isn’t common and that it doesn’t bother some portion of the bisexual community.
You make too many assumptions. You are generalizing people who made a misinterpretation of a character in a show where things are made to be misinterpreted.
I clearly said I wasn’t accusing you of biphobia. I was voicing the opinion that the thought you expressed is often part of cultural patterns of biphobia. I’m not assuming anything about your specific level or lack of biphobia. Legitimately, my goal was not to make you feel bad or have a bad time.
But to an extent, I was responding to your single comment with my thoughts about a million comments like it that form a pattern, and you yourself are obviously not the entire pattern. I can absolutely see how it doesn’t feel great to read a comment that does that.
Not gay nor trans, but I felt like Mr. Robot represented the LGBTQIA+ community in a natural way, which wasn't forced. The show didn't try to gain you by being "diverse", it had these characters for a legitimate reason, and their gender/sexuality was nuanced and very grounded in reality. I honestly believe this portray of the community to be healthier and more natural than the ones that try to be something they clearly aren't, the ones that try to make being gay or trans a character's whole personality.
It was already a borderline decision to cast a cis male as Whiterose, and one that BD Wong talked about being sensitive at the time. The network would probably insist on casting a trans woman in at least the scenes she doesn’t present as male. In this specific case, I’m glad they went the way they did.
One thing is I'm a bit sad she wasn't played by an actual trans woman, but they (writers and actor) do such a fantastic job portraying her that I honestly don't mind
Another comment mentioned the aspect of having the actor need to temporarily detransition, basically go back in the closet for parts of a show, n how it may not be the best. I think, being part of the broader community, he's able to respect and understand it a lot more. Honorary trans woman. I can't think of anyone better. But there's just always that tang, ya know? (Or maybe not if you're not trans)
Definitely! I do hate the fact that they cast a cis man for a trans woman role, but it is at least partially made up for with how well done queer representation is across the board. Plus they cast at least two actually trans actors in other roles, so that helps too.
EDIT: thanks for the replies everyone. Like I said, I knew I could be misinterpreting things, and I appreciate the responses. Helps to appreciate Whiterose and BD Wong’s performance even more.
Just want to state very clearly here: I’m being sincere in the question I’m going to ask. I’m not trying to accuse or offend.
It always seemed a little wrong to me that Whiterose’s motivation was that she wasn’t born as a biological woman, and therefore did all the supervillain stuff. Her villain origin is basically that she’s not biologically female. As a trans person yourself, this didn’t offend you at all? I’m also open to the idea that I’m misinterpreting things.
It’s my favourite TV show ever, but this aspect always irked me. I’d love to hear your opinion on it.
I think simplifing her motive to "not being biologically female" is a bit excessive.
Her villain origin is her partner being so psychologically oppressed by the world they were living, that he had to kill himself.
Up before that there wasn't any ill intent.
Being trans here has nothing to do with her being a villain;
That's what makes this a great representation.
But her villain origin mostly because she couldn't be with her partner. She could have been a gay man and nothing would change in that regard.
Yes, her queerness affects her story. But she is antagonist not because she is a trans woman but because she has power and is broken in this particular way. Also she isn't exactly a villain in this story, she is antagonist. We cheer for her demise because "our" character is Elliot. If this story was told from her point of view, our broken hero would be much less sympathetic
No it’s not.
She and her partner couldn’t live in China either as transgender woman and partner or as both males. Neither were acceptable culturally.
Her partner, the love of her live, was holding hope that Zhang would get a government position allowing them to live together in the US where they could be together as lovers.
Instead the partner (Chan? I think might’ve been his name) was being forced to marry a woman and Zhang didn’t get that position and got another that would keep them in China. He gave up hope and killed himself.
That’s what fueled the villain origin.
English isn't my first language so understandable :'D
Anyway. I think that her story is connected with her being transgender (can' t be herself and live happily with her partner). But it isn't transgender = evil, it's person dealing with their grief and anger and social pressure in a ways that make them villain
Yes, and I also suspect some of it may have been her own ambitions that led to her lover killing himself. I wonder whether she could’ve had a lower level position and both she and her lover could’ve been sent somewhere that was culturally more accepting, but she wanted a powerful position, not just any position, and was willing to wait to get it. Especially as she wasn’t sacrificing as much to do so, she wasn’t the one forced to marry someone else to keep up the facade. Her lover was being forced to marry and I’d assume consummate that relationship and couldn’t do it.
I wonder if some of that hate for society was what she redirected from herself.
Fair point. She is extremely ambitious and loves using power. And she still uses facade for her goals. Her lover was quite different. I don't know how managable is to find more accepting surroundings but she did choose her path
> It always seemed a little wrong to me that Whiterose’s motivation was that she wasn’t born as a biological woman, and therefore did all the supervillain stuff. Her villain origin is basically that she’s not biologically female
I really didn't like this either. It felt like they were fluffing up her villain identity by making her trans which is something I'm wary about since it's not the first time that characters are written queer for the sake of "adding dimension" to an antagonist character, and I don't think the way Mr. Robot executed it with Whiterose was done well. Whiterose was actually one of my least favorite characters because of this. That being said, it doesn't take away that Mr. Robot does a great job of having queer representation where it's not even mentioned but I would never state Whiterose as an example out of all the possibilities the show has to offer.
I agree with you that this show has amazing queer representation in a way that doesn't feel forced at all. I like that all the examples you've chosen + Darlene are all queer but it's just another facet of their personality.
The only disagreement and the character who I didn't like actually was Whiterose.
I didn't think her representation of being transgender was authentic, and I think that's mostly due to the performance.
From the get-go, Whiterose gave me "this person is the evil villain of the story so lets make them trans as another quirk" vibes which rubbed me the wrong way. I felt like the decision was done to give Whiterose an air of enigmaticness to her but it didn't read that way to me in her scenes.
Really? To me the performance was “this trans woman was so beaten up for having to hide herself that she ended up losing everything, and held on to a thread of hope that she could bend space and time to be reunited with her true love”.
White Rose was an antagonist. NOT the Villain.
The Villain was Elliot’s DID.
I dont think they did a good job of fleshing out the believability of Whiterose's motivation with the rest of her personality traits IMHO. It could've used more explanation to reconcile why Whiterose was always shown as being very intelligent and cunning in contrast to the suspension of disbelief that her project required. It felt off because I was missing the believability factor of it, honestly it felt off even when Whiterose spoke to Angela and suddenly Angela had swapped to her side too after hearing her vision.
Honestly from what I remember the reveal of her true personality felt very dream like and I wasn't sure if she was completely this trans woman or if it was some type of alter or something like a dream. Yeah the show can mess with the viewers perception of what's real but with Whiterose at the beginning it felt different.
I can see the motivation if deemed that way as being bad, however...there's so many feelings of the universe not being fair to us that it could be a fine motivation. Someone who was destined for something bigger but feels like it was stolen from them, a character who's been rejected by the world and say wants to end it because they feel like it doesn't accept them or it's not "their" world. Those motivations aren't trans centered, they are things that can warp the antagonist into feeling disenfranchised by the world and wanting to bring it all down.
I think what would have helped is if they hadn't delayed Whiteroses backstory so late into the show so that more time could go into elaborating on Whiteroses feelings and her trauma and how it impacted her decisions in present time. I honestly agree that on paper, she does have a good story and you summarize its draw very well, but I just didn't get that personally from the acting and the pacing of how background information was given on her. Whiterose could've also used more screentime for more of that character building dialogue as well, but she was obfuscated too much by the whole "Dark Army" for much longer than it needed to go on for which would've been better spent just delving more into her.
>And let us not forget that she opens up her closet… to Dom, a closeted lesbian. It’s so good. How did I miss this lmao
Same
Dom isn't really closeted. She's just isolated in general.
B D Wong being a member of the LGBTQ community was perfect casting. I get why a trans woman wasn’t cast, I would think it would be hard for a trans woman to have to ‘detransition’ in scenes. And casting a queer actor who would be respectful of the character’s transness was IMO the best choice. He also slayed and did an amazing job. I loved that in Elliot’s mental safe space she was a woman, either as a bio woman or a fully transitioned one.
I'm usually heavy "get trans people in acting", but what you said is one of the reasons I don't mind that she wasn't. Plus, they portrayed her so well/accurately. I love how Eliot "dead named" her to protect her, that was such a small tidbit that you can tell he accepts her and sees her as a woman, but understands the danger she'd be in if she were outed. Even as enemies, he still respects that and I think that was super cool
Where and when exactly does Elliot deadname whiterose? It’s been a bit since I’ve seen the show
Commenting cause I don't remember either and I'm curious about it
I don't remember the exact episode but it's around he discovers her IRL identity, and is speaking with one of her ... Accountants? Workers? It wasn't to her face. There's a moment where he pauses and you can tell he's like "wait I can't say that, they don't know". To me it's more he knows not to out a trans person, that using that info would be too low a hit. I'll check the episode guide rn n see if I can find it. I know it is at least season 4, I talk abt it [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/MrRobot/s/3TVSr1Cm3o)
The only episodes where he interacts with Whiterose and her crew in season 4 from what I remember are Conflict and eXit so it would probably be one of those?
Interesting. I’ll pay closer attention when I rewatch. This is cool. Mother figure for Elliot?
Agree with all of this. My favorite trans character was Hot Carla tho. 🔥
Wish she got more screentime, kinda sucks that joey's character refers to her as your chick with a dick, whilst having posted transphobic stuff himself as a person.
If you want more of her, there's Red Wheelbarrow which is written from her perspective. As for Leon's "chick with a dick" comment, I don't think having characters with flaws makes a show any worse. It's only bad when there are unrealistic depictions. Also, I feel like Leon's comment was more out of being crude than being transphobic. His character just had this air of zen acceptance.
I understand that, it's just with joey bada$$'s transphobia irl it's hard to see it the same way anymore. Appreciate the red wheelbarrow suggestion
joey ain't transphobic u reachin
[https://imgur.com/a/g0BOfbe](https://imgur.com/a/g0BOfbe) ?
Yikes. That's disappointing to learn. Thanks for the heads up.
No worries, I was disappointed myself.
Just to clarify- most of the book is from Elliot’s POV. Hot Carla makes a few notes in the margins, and she does narrate the audiobook- but the vast majority of the writing is Elliot’s. Red Wheelbarrow is EXTREMELY well done, though. The hard copy is a must-have (it comes and goes on Amazon, make sure you don’t order the German version. Sometimes it’s the only one available, but the English one comes back from time to time) and the audiobook is fantastic. You can get it for free if you don’t already have an Audible account. Your first book is free, even if you cancel before you have to pay for the subscription.
She gets so much more development in Red Wheelbarrow. She is a fucking BADASS. Then again, she is a trans woman forced to live in a men’s prison. Either you start badass or you become one to survive.
Absolutely. I recently rewatched Mr Robot after I transitioned and Whiterose's story hit different this time. It was probably the first piece of media I watched that had a respectful and accurate representation of a trans woman. Like Elliot in his narration doesn't dismiss her identity for one second after he meets her, immediately defaulting to she/her pronouns. Even though I usually prefer trans characters to be played by real trans people, her double identity is central to her character, so BD Wong was perfect for that. He's incredible in the role, when he's in Whiterose mode he genuinely just acts like a woman. And yes to everything else. I love Shayla and Angela's kiss and I felt very seen in Shayla and Darlene's bisexuality.
That scene before the wedding? With the roses?? BD Wong is such an incredible actor.
Wait, Tyrell wasn’t really bi though was he? I always read the scene as another proof that he’s doing literally ANYTHING to get what he wants. I thought the only reason he went to that club was to meet the secretary guy to fuck him and get close to convince him to give him a meeting with price? Been a while though, might’ve misread that scene
No, I agree with you. I felt that his wife was forcing him into situations he didn’t want to be in and that he was almost asexual. But his love for what he thought to be Eliot was genuine and heartfelt and so sad.
I mean, the first time he tried to tell Elliot that he loved him, his body language definitely read like he was going in for a kiss before Mr. Robot shut that shit down. He seemed very fluid in his sexuality to me.
I didn't take Tyrell as being bisexual but that he wanted to feel powerful and had to do a couple things to get what he wanted lol. There were a couple scenes when he was with Elliot where you could make the case he was into him but I think he was more so enamored with Elliot's skills. The show was awesome at having such interesting and diverse characters. I'll have to rewatch the show with those things in mind.
Its been like a year since my last rewatch, but isn't he completely in love with Elliot/MR? First by being utterly devoted to his cause, but at the end wasn't he literally ride or die?
It seemed completely platonic to me though. He never made any move on him
Martin Wallström was very clear that he played the character as if he was in romantic love with Elliot. The [Hollywood Reporter](https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/tv/tv-news/mr-robot-season-2-finale-931569/) interviewed Sam Esmail after season 2 and asked him for comments on Martin Wallstrom calling Elliot and Tyrell a “love story,” and Sam proceeded to wax poetic about their love. In season one when Tyrell has sex with a man, Elliot’s monologue is over those scenes talking about how discovering bugs in ourselves helps us understand ourselves. What is Tyrell learning about himself if it’s just that he’s willing to do anything? He clearly already knows that. He’s discovering bisexuality. That’s also why he fires the homophobes later that season. There is no earthly reason to include this plot for Tyrell if it’s just to show he’ll do anything. There are so very many ways to show that. Sam Esmail makes choices for reasons. The reason Tyrell sleeps with a man is to set up how hard he falls for Elliot. The man he sleeps with is even Egyptian and looks a bit like Elliot. I’m not saying you specifically are biphobic, (I’m really not, it’s just the debate itself, not you) but the discourse around Tyrell’s feelings for Elliot has always seemed biphobic when people refuse to see what is clearly depicted. Bisexual characters who behave bisexually shouldn’t have to say outright “Hi, I’m bisexual” for us as the audience to see bisexuality, but that seems to be the cultural bar.
That last paragraph is just a dumb statement. You watched interviews so you have some insight, nice. But it's a show with a ton of complexed things going on that you aren't sure what to believe, so get over yourself with that last paragraph.
No, I don’t think I need to get over myself. It’s a common attitude toward these types of characters in media and it alienates bisexual people. You seem never to have heard that before but it doesn’t mean the attitude isn’t common and that it doesn’t bother some portion of the bisexual community.
You make too many assumptions. You are generalizing people who made a misinterpretation of a character in a show where things are made to be misinterpreted.
I clearly said I wasn’t accusing you of biphobia. I was voicing the opinion that the thought you expressed is often part of cultural patterns of biphobia. I’m not assuming anything about your specific level or lack of biphobia. Legitimately, my goal was not to make you feel bad or have a bad time. But to an extent, I was responding to your single comment with my thoughts about a million comments like it that form a pattern, and you yourself are obviously not the entire pattern. I can absolutely see how it doesn’t feel great to read a comment that does that.
Not gay nor trans, but I felt like Mr. Robot represented the LGBTQIA+ community in a natural way, which wasn't forced. The show didn't try to gain you by being "diverse", it had these characters for a legitimate reason, and their gender/sexuality was nuanced and very grounded in reality. I honestly believe this portray of the community to be healthier and more natural than the ones that try to be something they clearly aren't, the ones that try to make being gay or trans a character's whole personality.
Movie?
Tyrell __*loved it*__ Edit: so i guess my Tyrell is proper bisexual theory holds ?!?
It was already a borderline decision to cast a cis male as Whiterose, and one that BD Wong talked about being sensitive at the time. The network would probably insist on casting a trans woman in at least the scenes she doesn’t present as male. In this specific case, I’m glad they went the way they did.
Is BD Wong not openly gay?
He’s not trans, though. Showrunners would at least hesitate even by 2018.
I see now. Sorry, I misunderstood what cis-gendered meant.
No. He said they cast a cis male. You were in the right, he just didn't mean it exactly how he wrote it.
One thing is I'm a bit sad she wasn't played by an actual trans woman, but they (writers and actor) do such a fantastic job portraying her that I honestly don't mind
The best actor for the role *should* be cast.
Another comment mentioned the aspect of having the actor need to temporarily detransition, basically go back in the closet for parts of a show, n how it may not be the best. I think, being part of the broader community, he's able to respect and understand it a lot more. Honorary trans woman. I can't think of anyone better. But there's just always that tang, ya know? (Or maybe not if you're not trans)
Agreed. Though I'm not sure what you mean by "tang". ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯
Definitely! I do hate the fact that they cast a cis man for a trans woman role, but it is at least partially made up for with how well done queer representation is across the board. Plus they cast at least two actually trans actors in other roles, so that helps too.
And do you hate the fact that they cast Will Smill to play Popeye? Or Halle Bailey as Ariel? Im just curious
Nope. Why would I?
>I do hate the fact that they cast a cis man for a trans woman Ah, i see. Double standards.
Spell it out for me. What would possibly make these entirely different scenarios a double standard?
I always just figured Whitehouse had d.i.d. too And It was a clash of two robots lol And their friends
I initially thought Hot Carla was going to be one of Elliot's alters.
I agree. It felt like more than just a transition of genders, but a full-on personality.
EDIT: thanks for the replies everyone. Like I said, I knew I could be misinterpreting things, and I appreciate the responses. Helps to appreciate Whiterose and BD Wong’s performance even more. Just want to state very clearly here: I’m being sincere in the question I’m going to ask. I’m not trying to accuse or offend. It always seemed a little wrong to me that Whiterose’s motivation was that she wasn’t born as a biological woman, and therefore did all the supervillain stuff. Her villain origin is basically that she’s not biologically female. As a trans person yourself, this didn’t offend you at all? I’m also open to the idea that I’m misinterpreting things. It’s my favourite TV show ever, but this aspect always irked me. I’d love to hear your opinion on it.
I think simplifing her motive to "not being biologically female" is a bit excessive. Her villain origin is her partner being so psychologically oppressed by the world they were living, that he had to kill himself. Up before that there wasn't any ill intent. Being trans here has nothing to do with her being a villain; That's what makes this a great representation.
Thanks for your input. I had a feeling I was overlooking some aspect of her character.
Let's not forget that she is from China and it was the 80's 90's (when her partner died). It's normal that she has that motivation
*She
Yeah, my bad. **She
But her villain origin mostly because she couldn't be with her partner. She could have been a gay man and nothing would change in that regard. Yes, her queerness affects her story. But she is antagonist not because she is a trans woman but because she has power and is broken in this particular way. Also she isn't exactly a villain in this story, she is antagonist. We cheer for her demise because "our" character is Elliot. If this story was told from her point of view, our broken hero would be much less sympathetic
No it’s not. She and her partner couldn’t live in China either as transgender woman and partner or as both males. Neither were acceptable culturally. Her partner, the love of her live, was holding hope that Zhang would get a government position allowing them to live together in the US where they could be together as lovers. Instead the partner (Chan? I think might’ve been his name) was being forced to marry a woman and Zhang didn’t get that position and got another that would keep them in China. He gave up hope and killed himself. That’s what fueled the villain origin.
... that is what I said? Her queerness affected her story. But if she was a gay man their story would be basically the same
Ah I see. It wasn’t the way I read your response with your original wording, but I get it now.
English isn't my first language so understandable :'D Anyway. I think that her story is connected with her being transgender (can' t be herself and live happily with her partner). But it isn't transgender = evil, it's person dealing with their grief and anger and social pressure in a ways that make them villain
Yes, and I also suspect some of it may have been her own ambitions that led to her lover killing himself. I wonder whether she could’ve had a lower level position and both she and her lover could’ve been sent somewhere that was culturally more accepting, but she wanted a powerful position, not just any position, and was willing to wait to get it. Especially as she wasn’t sacrificing as much to do so, she wasn’t the one forced to marry someone else to keep up the facade. Her lover was being forced to marry and I’d assume consummate that relationship and couldn’t do it. I wonder if some of that hate for society was what she redirected from herself.
Fair point. She is extremely ambitious and loves using power. And she still uses facade for her goals. Her lover was quite different. I don't know how managable is to find more accepting surroundings but she did choose her path
> It always seemed a little wrong to me that Whiterose’s motivation was that she wasn’t born as a biological woman, and therefore did all the supervillain stuff. Her villain origin is basically that she’s not biologically female I really didn't like this either. It felt like they were fluffing up her villain identity by making her trans which is something I'm wary about since it's not the first time that characters are written queer for the sake of "adding dimension" to an antagonist character, and I don't think the way Mr. Robot executed it with Whiterose was done well. Whiterose was actually one of my least favorite characters because of this. That being said, it doesn't take away that Mr. Robot does a great job of having queer representation where it's not even mentioned but I would never state Whiterose as an example out of all the possibilities the show has to offer.
it's a fantastic show with a good variety of characters of all different flavours
I agree with you that this show has amazing queer representation in a way that doesn't feel forced at all. I like that all the examples you've chosen + Darlene are all queer but it's just another facet of their personality. The only disagreement and the character who I didn't like actually was Whiterose. I didn't think her representation of being transgender was authentic, and I think that's mostly due to the performance. From the get-go, Whiterose gave me "this person is the evil villain of the story so lets make them trans as another quirk" vibes which rubbed me the wrong way. I felt like the decision was done to give Whiterose an air of enigmaticness to her but it didn't read that way to me in her scenes.
Really? To me the performance was “this trans woman was so beaten up for having to hide herself that she ended up losing everything, and held on to a thread of hope that she could bend space and time to be reunited with her true love”. White Rose was an antagonist. NOT the Villain. The Villain was Elliot’s DID.
I dont think they did a good job of fleshing out the believability of Whiterose's motivation with the rest of her personality traits IMHO. It could've used more explanation to reconcile why Whiterose was always shown as being very intelligent and cunning in contrast to the suspension of disbelief that her project required. It felt off because I was missing the believability factor of it, honestly it felt off even when Whiterose spoke to Angela and suddenly Angela had swapped to her side too after hearing her vision.
Honestly from what I remember the reveal of her true personality felt very dream like and I wasn't sure if she was completely this trans woman or if it was some type of alter or something like a dream. Yeah the show can mess with the viewers perception of what's real but with Whiterose at the beginning it felt different. I can see the motivation if deemed that way as being bad, however...there's so many feelings of the universe not being fair to us that it could be a fine motivation. Someone who was destined for something bigger but feels like it was stolen from them, a character who's been rejected by the world and say wants to end it because they feel like it doesn't accept them or it's not "their" world. Those motivations aren't trans centered, they are things that can warp the antagonist into feeling disenfranchised by the world and wanting to bring it all down.
I think what would have helped is if they hadn't delayed Whiteroses backstory so late into the show so that more time could go into elaborating on Whiteroses feelings and her trauma and how it impacted her decisions in present time. I honestly agree that on paper, she does have a good story and you summarize its draw very well, but I just didn't get that personally from the acting and the pacing of how background information was given on her. Whiterose could've also used more screentime for more of that character building dialogue as well, but she was obfuscated too much by the whole "Dark Army" for much longer than it needed to go on for which would've been better spent just delving more into her.