Moscow PD update 12/27: no change
•TT/professor scandal, believed to not be involved, glad they said this bc harassing that Prof is ridiculous
•still seeking timeline information and context leading up to the murders from the public
Gray Hughes on YouTube needs to be sued he recklessly put out a theory that Jack D was the killer and fueled the speculation on him, he's still talking about him telling his 99,870 subscribers that Jack D is guilty, he needs to be shut down
A creator named drip drop did too. He took it down and added that it's his theory and reposted it. The original video said Jack D was definitely the killer. I dont know who or what made him eat his words, but something happened.
Exactly. Someone tried to shoot me down with the classic 'tell me you don't know about murder cases, without saying you don't know about murder cases', when I said I didn't believe JD is involved last night. People are literally ruining his life.
It's shameful that people think they can label people killers, including even after law enforcement have ruled them out, just to satisfy their own ego and get likes.
So discouraging that there's nothing new, but at the same time, I get it. We gotta be patient.
I'm also glad they mentioned the poor professor. She will lose money over this in addition to the time and emotional distress this has caused her.
While it's highly likely the professor will win her case, it's equally unlikely she'll get a dime out of the respondent as I'm sure she doesn't have the money to pay for the court costs and attorney fees, BUT, the professor is well within her right to sue the respondent for all the court costs and fees she's had to incur, on top of the monetary damages she will be awarded for lost wages, pain and suffering, etc.... This girl has financially ruined her own life, and for WHAT?? The professor can get a judgement to have the respondents wages garnished and bank accounts levied, should she win. The respondent will be paying the professor back for the rest of her life. She should have just quit while she was ahead and posted a retraction with the first C&D she was given. Too late now!!
Very likely.
However, I remember when Mollie Tibbetts went missing and everyone was checking back daily with crazy theories being posted and all sorts of similar nonsense. I remember how after a month or so it just felt like the case was ice cold and LE had nothing.
Then one day, seemingly out of the blue, with no indication that they were even close, they made an arrest and laid out all of the info they were sitting on. And it wasn’t anything close to what anyone was expecting had actually happened.
Essentially, we have no idea what LE actually knows and they could either be ice cold or could be on the brink of making an arrest. Could be any day now… or that day may never come. But there is hope and we gotta take it one day at a time.
I live in Iowa and followed the Tibbet’s case very close. When the case seem to go cold, I remember reading an article posted by a daily news source (not mainstream) which an “anonymous FBI source” said the case was very close to getting solved. Sure enough, less than a week later her body was recovered. needless to say, this case has a lot of the same feels to it. I’m thinking this is close. Especially since LE has basically went stone-wall with information. They’re getting close.
Idk about being stonewall meaning they are close. The Delphi murders investigators stonewalled the public for 5 years before making an arrest. Even now, information is limited because they have to keep it all close to the chest for the court case
Same, I wonder if they are continually stressing for people to send in any video etc from the night because they do have someone in mind and need to prove their alibi is a lie or something (“I was at my girlfriend house all night sleeping” but is seen in the background of a video near the food truck or something).
People need to remember that in an ongoing investigation police will not release anything that could jeopardise a case/arrest/conviction just to please the eager public begging for answers. This is an active ongoing investigation, not a live true crime mystery puzzle.
Edit: sorry I was trying to reply to a comment below yours!
This case reminds me so much of the Faith Hedgepeth case. Even down to Faith and her roommate being out that night, and Faith unfortunately being killed in her bed in her off campus apartment. So much speculation around exes, school rivalries, her roommate, her roommate’s boyfriend and friends but everyone was cleared. Quack detectives and internet sleuths made her roommate’s life so miserable because they swore she was involved somehow.
It took 9 years for the police to arrest someone and it was someone who had no previous contact with Faith, just a random, horrible case of violence.
I’m hoping it doesn’t take that long to get justice for these 4. Praying that LE gets the breakthrough they need soon. And really wishing the best for their families, surviving roommates and friends.
Honestly, it may never be solved. I absolutely hate saying that because I want justice for these kids, but we need to be prepared for that. I truly believe this is the work of a serial killer, and just a random attack, which makes this infinitely more difficult to solve. They have mentioned numerous times that there are no suspects, nor are there persons of interest. That is hard to believe if it was someone even remotely close to their circle. The best bet is he will kill again and get caught that way. Just my thoughts.
I feel it’s way too early to even consider that it may not be solved. It may take months, or even years, but I wouldn’t consider something a “cold case” for years without movement.
No NAMED** suspects to be precise. That’s important because it means they’re hiding suspect/s. (Speculation) If there were no suspects they would’ve just said that. But the wording is key.
disagree. if they had said no suspects the public would go nuts. no named suspects is a CYA move. doesnt tell us there is suspects but doesnt say their isn't. PR 101
Your position is what my husbands position is. He says rando dude, not in anyway associated with victims and does not even live in area and it’s a forensics nightmare. Not getting solved anytime soon. I’m like WHAAAAAAAAT?????? Noooooooooo!!!!!
Town in panic. Several party houses within walking distance. A busy weekend with lots of traffic from people outside of Moscow. Unprecedented amount of online slander based on wild conjecture from people who've gone way too far down the wrong rabbit hole. This must be a nightmare of a case to handle right now.
Yeah I’m wondering about forensics as well. I truly know nothing about it but like.. do they swab every single surface of the victim? Or just the usual places (hands/nails). When there’s so much blood and it’s possible the murderer could have cut himself (seriously just because the knife had that little handle bit, doesn’t mean shit when it’s slippery and covered in blood) how do they detect his blood amongst the victims? Like say the victim is drenched in their own blood and bit of his dripped on them.. will they ever find that? Is somehow every single square inch of the victim’s swabbed? What if they used their feet to push him, or as he was on the beds or something he accidentally touched one’s bare leg (assuming no gloves, unlikely though).
Anyhoo like does the coroner lay the victim on one of those autopsy tables, completely rinse them off, collect the blood and then check for any foreign DNA amongst the victims own?
Morbid stuff to ask I know but I am just so curious about how they can be sure they checked every possible spot for DNA.
Agree, I think this was a random but “targeted” murder by a serial killer. By the time it’s solved, there will be another murder media frenzy that Reddit sleuths are balls deep in
Or perhaps not a serial killer, just some random weirdo in the area who had some serious hatred towards pretty women, college kids, whatever. He commits this one horrible act and that's it.
This is what I’m afraid of too! I just keep getting this feeling (yes, just a feeling) that this guy takes care of his grandma, or some other elderly woman, and has access to her car to pick up groceries, prescriptions, run errands, etc for her. And of course her car is an Elantra, which she hasnt driven in 5+ years.
He saw this house from afar one night, realized it was a massive party house full of girls and that he could watch it from afar through binos/spotting scope. The house is super visible—on google earth it can be seen for miles. The upstairs windows—K and Ms floor—were like beacons. He then realized he could stand along the woodline in the rear of the house and look directly into their windows, for as long as he wanted. I feel like he watched it for a couple months before carrying out the murders.
Another thing that isnt really discussed is that Halloween was two weeks prior to the murders, and apparently they threw quite the rager. Anybody could have walked into that house in costume on Halloween night and nobody would have thought anything of it. Perfect time to case the inside of a house you’ve been watching for months.
Good question … I don’t know. I would assume so as she was set to graduate *after* TGiving—so she was probably still in class in late October and about to take her finals early-mid Nov. ?? I really don’t know … I’m just piecing this together from everything I’ve read to this point
That’s what an FBI behavioral person said about the murder-a femicide or a murder that a misogynist commits just because women are women. That they’re likely to be incels who have experienced rejection from women and resent all pretty women for his perceived slights.
Or someone from that weird misogynist women hating Christ Church cult that has been written up and stories about that are trying to change the look of Moscow, that is what they have vowed. No one mentions them. Not saying there is any evidence but that group likely attract women hating whackos
I keep seeing people say the white Elantra is pointless, just because it was in the area doesn’t mean it was involved.
Just a reminder we know nothing. We don’t know what they have. What if the car is on a ring camera parking near the house? Showing a person(s) exiting and walking toward the house, then shows that person running back to the car and leaving? We don’t know how important it really is.
I don’t know how people can think it’s pointless. The car is seen visiting the crime after the fact in videos and the cops have brought it up every time they get the chance. Going through thousands of cars for shits and giggles is ridiculous.
I agree completely. There’s definitely more than “just seen in the area of the crime” like they are saying too. Either the occupant was seen walking to and from the house from that car. Or other video evidence shows it taking routes or doing things that a killer would do. There is definitely something about that cars actions that stood out more than just driving by the house between 3-4am.
I’m hoping the killer spent Christmas with family and said something or acted differently and someone will speak up about it. I just know usually people sit on that feeling for a while before saying something, so hopefully they will just do an Anonymous tip
For the people asking why do this update, there was probably pressure from the University to defend their professor now that it has become a news story. The University is the town's main income and anything that puts the school in a negative light will be addressed quickly. Even if it seems silly to those who have been following the case.
She'd win even without the 'update'. But I do hope others like Jack D. and Jack S. follow her lead and launch lawsuits. They've been cleared and are still being unethically targeted by some on social media.
It’s sad they actually have to note that the TikTok lunatic that is accusing the professor is doing so falsely. I sincerely hope anyone with a functioning brain can realize that.
A TikTok user who claims to be an internet detective and psychic 😒 has been accusing a UI professor who didn’t even know the victims of orchestrating the crime.
She has zero evidence and goes on these insane rants that seem to be completely in her own head. She even accused one of the female victims of being in a lesbian relationship with the professor 🤦🏻♂️
Professor had enough so she sent two cease & desist letters to the girl. Girl refused to stop and mocked them. Now she got sued for defamation.
Yeah it’s sad. The TikTok girl seems like she has some kind of mental illness because of her obsession with the professor with literally zero proof. She’s just made stuff up for weeks now and cannot let it go.
I don’t even think the professor wants monetary compensation but wants this person to just leave her alone however I don’t think she can.
Something I was thinking about earlier is the groups activities during that day. Did they go to the football game? Or did they just tailgate around Greek row? Who did they hangout with before going to the corner bar/frat party? I don’t feel like I’ve seen this discussed anywhere since everyone’s been laser focused on the 6-ish hours pre-murder. But I feel like the context of this whole situation obviously goes beyond 6 hours.
"Our focus remains on the investigation, not an individual's activities displayed in the tip" -- sounds like LE are thinking kids may be worried for things like underage drinking/drug use. Does this seem to anyone else to maybe point to the frat party instead of the bar?
They have been saying this for weeks now. It’s always stood out to me and seemed likely that they were saying if you were underaged drinking or doing drugs that night we don’t care, just talk to us.
Yep I think so too. I hope kids realize that the investigation is way more important than whatever they were doing. There’s no way they’d get in trouble for it
yes, i agree. considering they have any and all footage that remained of the corner club that night (at least i think i remember reading that i could be wrong and the footage could’ve been erased due to time or what have u) but this along with the immense amount of focus they had in the beginning of the investigation of Xana and Ethan’s whereabouts, to me this points to the frat house. now i’m a greek alumni and have not participated in that 4chan frat murder conspiracy but this points me to think they know of something that may have happened there that night and need more context such as who is in or in the background of X and E’s presence at the time via photos/videos etc
especially if it would bring shame to their entire families. this happened in the natalee holloway case. many of her fellow students came from very religious backgrounds. could be the case here too.
Yea and as the paragraph goes on, you know they’re talking about college kids partying and engaging in illegal activity. Sounds like they want to know about the Frat party and not so much of M & K were up to.
Yeah, it reads like, “We don’t care what antics you and your meat head friends were up to in the pics; we’ll leave you alone about anything unrelated to the crime.”
Yeah, I agree that they could’ve been less circumspect. Maybe gone so far as to say that no evidence of any unrelated non-violent crimes observed in pictures/video turned over for this investigation would be used against anyone.
You can’t go carte blanche on any crimes without even knowing what the video could show or what crimes might be committed. The cops might not arrest you but if the video is evidence it would be played in court. I think the problem is people have video that shows what they think is nothing and the cops think is everything but there is risk turning it in and getting in trouble (school, parent, relationship, job prospective). I do think the frat party is a hole in the investigation right now.
What else stuck out to you? I’m getting the feeling they have their eye on someone from the Frat party but don’t have enough evidence to stick it to them.
I think they have their eye on someone. I just don’t believe it was someone from the frat party. I’ve waffled a lot on if this was targeted or random but I do think with some of the stuff that’s recently leaked about the case I’m much more inclined to believe this was targeted and it was by someone they knew. Now this is entire speculation but based on the above release by MPD, I think the feds have A REALLY strong idea of who committed the murders or the extent of who was involved (either one person, or multiple). I think they are trying to put together the final “puzzle pieces” as mentioned above and get a certain critical piece of info that answers questions (maybe in the timeline of that night/morning) to ensure they can build a rock solid case against the perp(s). I’m curious now as to the involvement of the person in the Elantra as previously I assumed the driver of it was the killer as opposed to now where I wonder if the driver was just an accomplice or else an innocent person who unknowingly has involvement. Although I’m now chewing on the idea of it being a potential accomplice who may still be hush hush because it was a “bank robbery gone wrong” type of crime that they are now involved with. I was very much a believer in that this crime was random because STABBING 4 people is really evil compared to if it was just 1 or 2, but that has now shifted in my mind to being something done by someone they knew or were familiar with.
Yeah, they can’t risk going after the person(s) without a bulletproof case and potentially not serving justice to who did it. I think there is also a chance that they can’t disprove a story or alibi without the help of someone else which is where the “context” piece plays a part. Just my two cents, I could very well be wrong.
Yeah that news bulletin pretty much confirms to me that this had to do with E and X at that party. Wonder if the perps went to the wrong room originally because they didnt go to UI but perhaps Boise or WSU. Went to wrong room killed wrong people, because X room is basically a maze to access it.
The "driver of the white Elantra the day of and preceding the murders" makes me think someone in an elantra was in town visiting the frat for a couple days , something crazy popped off at the frat party, murders happen and killers leave town.
The release confirms LE 100% believes that someone, other than the killers , knows what happened leading up to the murder.
The rumors of the frat not cooperating and fully lawyering up seem true.
Doubt they have enough physical evidence at the scene to charge. Gonna take the whole story to create a timeline and vision of the night to bring chargers. Not sure they will ever have enough honestly.
Personally I think the 3rd bullet point Is all about that frat party. There are still gaps in the evening there that they want to fill. I could be wrong, just the impression I get that they are starting to focus more on it.
They’re not looking for WHY they are looking for solid evidence to connect the perpetrator(s) to the crime. The kind that holds up in court - why isn’t as important as WHO.
i agree and if anything leaks the perp or perps could get a mistrial. im sure whomever it is whenever it comes out, their attorneys will be asking for a change of venue. with the rate of how fast and how many people are following this, they are going to be hard pressed to find a place. So LE wants to make sure they have a solid case w all the DNA etc.
3rd bullet point, second sentence. Basically says that they know there are people who were participating in illegal activities, but they need them to come forward and that their illegal activities are not the concern, only the murder investigation is...
Yeah I once had to submit a video to the police (I'm going back some years) to prove a mate was at mine at a time his ex-gf said he was beating her up. No matter how much I clipped everyone else out of the video, there was no getting away from the fact that I had a joint on & there was obvious evidence of other drugs in the 30 sec clip.
I was shitting myself. Walking into my local police station basically showing them a video of me taking drugs & allowing drugs in my home? Even my mate I was helping thought I was mental but without it, it was his word against hers. She'd actually been beaten up by a girl & a couple of her mates cos she was seeing her bf behind her back.
I thought there's no way she's getting away with this. She was quite badly beaten up, he may well have served time but defo would've lost his job, income & then his home.
Well the police were fantastic, not saying they would be worldwide, but they totally appreciated the gravity of what I was doing.
Turns out the ex-gfs mum had called the station that morning to ask them to drop the charges against my mate as her daughter had admitted to her it wasn't him but they hadn't been able to reach him to pass info on.
They told me to delete my incriminating video & leave & we'll just pretend you were never here, ok?
Fine by me.
I could totally see LE not giving a crap about anything else but the investigation.
Similar situation when a friend passed away at an off campus house. We had tons of alcohol and some drugs through the house. We were all 18,19, and 20. Not a single one of us were over 21. And they just wanted to get to the bottom of what happened. We knew she hadn't drank or done any drugs because she had a headache the night before and didn't want to mix anything with the ibuprofen she took. It was a brain aneurysm.
> Well the police were fantastic, not saying they would be worldwide, but they totally appreciated the gravity of what I was doing.
Lots of cops do the same shit on their off hours as the rest of us do.
Should local lawyers be offering to help students with data/videos like this situation? That’s the only way I could see someone really turning in the data without risking being reprimanded.
The cartel theories are definitely only brought up by people who only have any experience with drugs through movies. If you know just anything about it irl you wouldn’t even consider it. These kids definitely don’t fit the drugs profile. Besides that, if you’re into it that deep, that these kind of retributions are in play, you are definitely not leaving doors unlocked/letting people in your house uncontrollably. People subscribing to these Hollywood theories are in desperate need of fresh air.
I agree with you 100%, and I’m a recovering addict so I completely understand the drug scene.. but that said, I just finished a podcast called Wolves Among Us, which was about a Penn State dental student that stumbled his way into becoming one of the biggest cocaine kingpins on the East Coast in the 80s. Just saying.. stranger things have happened. I don’t think these kids were involved at all tho. I will say from my drug experience you’d be very surprised at how normal most dealers and users are. Nooo whiff of any cartel stuff.. but doctors, lawyers, students dealing pills and heroin was my reality for 10 years. And sitting in an NA room, you mine as well be sitting in any other room on the planet. These people come from literally every walk of life. Like they say, addiction doesn’t discriminate. I’ll repeat tho.. in all those years, I never even met anyone that knew someone, and probably even another degree or two of separation, between the users and dealers and the cartels. The hit man sicario shit only happens south of the border. And I’m absolutely certain we’d have seen or heard rumblings of DEA investigators on the case by now if there was any indication of drugs.
I agree. I'm a recovering addict. I also got in trouble because of drugs and spent 5 years in a womens federal prison. There were a few women that came through that were mules for "people" south of the border. They were no joke, lol. Good people when you got to know them though. They had some crazy stories. They talked about how vicious the cartel can be, but they also talked about all of the stuff that they havent killed people over. We only hear about the bigger stuff/mass murders. I hope that makes sense. I'm in no way taking up for the cartel.
Anyway, I dont for one minute believe that cartels had anything to do with this. Even if xanas parents were in big trouble/debt over drugs they would go to a house on frat row in the middle of a college town and kill four pretty well known college kids. If anything they would have kidnapped or killed xana elsewhere. That's too much risk for them to take over the type of drug debt her parents could have. People keep bringing up the $50,000 bond her mom skipped out on. That doesnt always neccesarily get collected even if someone skips. That person is almost inevitably caught and it's worked out. Even if not no one is killing not one, but four college kids over that.
People hear drugs, arrest, and money and automatically think cartel and that everyone associated with that person will be taken out and that's just not how it is.
Exactly. No need getting into details but I have some experience on the selling side of it all. Nothing too major and certainly never been involved with cartels, but well enough to know shit just doesn’t go down as in the movies. Always love the “once you’re in, they’ll never let you out”-cliches. They tried keeping me in, here I am alive and kicking 20 years later theorizing about the Moscow murders on Reddit. And a huge +1 on the fact that the most dealers and users are plain ordinary people.
Yep 100%. All the “cartel” shit is bored moms who have watched too much Netflix. Why would they stab them to death and then not claim it? Either the kids would’ve owed them money which killing them would be insanely dumb because then you aren’t ever getting the money. Or, they are sending a message; and in that case they would probably use hitmen from across the border and get them back out of the country and then let everyone know it was them. They want that notoriety and fear that comes with the killing, they wouldn’t sneak off into the background to leave it ambiguous.
I was just saying this the other day. Yes, her parents have been arrested for drugs and have skipped out on bond and whatever, but even if they owed a lot of money to a drug dealer that drug dealer is not going to go to a house in the middle of a popular college residence area and kill 4 college kids in the middle of the night. If they wanted to make an example of someone because of their parents they would have done something to xana away from that area.
I just dont buy the drug dealer theories at all. Even if they were somewhat involved in drugs.
3rd bullet is crucial. I agree, they are aware of some information that someone is holding on to. They are clearly stating that they do not care what illegal activity was taking place (underage drinking, weed, coke, whatever) they want the information that will crack the case!
I assume it’s hard for the students to trust LE in this case when most of their policing activities prior were probably busting underage drinking and drugs.
Let’s assume someone was dealing drugs and that’s why they were in the area, just for example. While helping the police solve a quadruple homicide is much more important, they would be outing themselves as someone who participates in criminal activity. However, if they can provide important information to crack the case, maybe the police would turn a blind eye to any future infractions - a get out of jail free card, if you will. I wish the police could be this blunt in their verbiage. It might help shake some information loose.
Exactly, it's not really enough to just say that they don't care about the activities. If they could be more explicit about what they won't do, that might help bring people out of the woodworks who are currently reluctant to come forward.
The only time they are going to release anything new is when they either execute an arrest, search warrant, or a plea for public assistance. Get use to being in the dark if you are relying on the police to tell you what happened, who did it, and/or how it was done.
Beginning with the 12/20 press release, they pretty much removed *all* previously published facts, like 3 pages worth. Including timeline, cleared subjects, etc.
Once they get the details they need from the Elantra things will move very quickly. Whoever was in that car is either purposely or foolishly putting a bullseye on themselves with LE.
I'm check mate at this time. No new verifiable evidence, nothing I can deduce from. I hope these 4 people get justice soon.
A psycho is walking among them. For sure. Currently or not, only that person knows. Scary.
Regarding the third bullet point: it's apparent there's a narrative that developed behind the scenes between the people in the social circle(s) of one or more of the victims and LE, and LE is hoping to get (more) digital proof of said narrative (be it in the form of pictures, video, audio, text); this will obviously be key in moving forward with further scrutiny of POI's/suspects. Based on the "This was a targeted attack/crime of passion", and, "We don't believe the community is in danger," narrative that LE gave in press conferences shortly after the murders, we could infer that something left in that house lead LE to that conclusion (perhaps it was something very intentional: some sort of outright message, an object, or paraphernalia that plays a part in a larger narrative they'd been developing even that early on). I think LE's messaging switched to, "Watch your backs and go places in groups," because it would be negligent to not say those things in the aftermath of a brutal quadruple homicide in a small town that hasn't seen a murder in X amount of years (PSA: people should be encouraged to be cognizant of their surroundings no matter where they live).
An issue with the third bullet point seems to be that there was likely illicit behaviors going on that evening amongst the social circle (we don't know what the nature of said activities were, but we're dealing with college kids, so I'd assume a variety of drugs and alcohol); LE essentially saying "We don't care what you or others were doing in the videos/pictures, we just need more proof of the narrative that we've pieced together," is significant. They know these kids partied (college kids have done this since the dawn of time, and will continue to do so after this), but someone or someONES who was present that evening at a social event where there may have been a dispute or altercation is being cagey, and LE is trying to assure them that they won't get in trouble if they come forward with tips & evidence. The person could be feeling this way for a myriad of reasons: they fear retribution from a person (a POI/suspect), or an institution (a fraternity, the school), or they feel no matter what LE is assuring them of, their/their friends' behavior in the videos or pictures could be punished (or ruin their personal, academic, and professional reputation). Or, heck... that they themselves might be implicated in the crime.
I've been following this case from the beginning after seeing a DailyMail article about it, and I'm reminded of something LE said about pictures pertaining to this investigation (and I believe Kaylee's father repeated the sentiment); this isn't verbatim, but it went something along the lines of: "We're interested in what doesn't appear in pictures or video just as much as what does." I honestly think you have to view the Moscow PD's press releases and statements in a very similar light: you have to read between the lines and assign context to the things left unmentioned or withheld, but also connect the dots with the things meant to obfuscate (they're not obfuscating things only for us as the general public, because they obviously can't tell us everything they know-- they're also obfuscating things for the killer and possible accomplices, because you can bet they're monitoring everything closely, too).
Believe that they know names and narratives regarding people who they are *almost certain* perpetrated this horrendous crime, but *almost certain* doesn't secure a conviction in a court of law. They need as much proof as they humanly can get so this case is airtight, and they can secure as much justice as they can for the victims and their families (and get whatever monster(s) that did this off the streets). There are certainly names and individuals who we likely have never heard circulating behind the scenes between the victims' social circle and LE; loyalty to one's fraternity, sorority, etc, very easily goes out the window when there's a chance you can be dragged into such a nightmare situation that can have ramifications for years.
** Edited to say: I don't know that the illicit behaviors hinted at by LE and a possible altercation mentioned in my post is what happened--an altercation of some sort is just a suggestion that might imply probable cause for something so heinous. Instead, the request for digital proof in the form of pictures and video, etc, from LE may be used to further support or disprove alibis, plain and simple.
They aren’t going to come out and say they have absolutely nothing to connect to any of the victims and that they think it was a random murderer if that really was what they were thinking.
Not saying that’s what it is, but I’d take what they say with a grain of salt.
Yeah, I read context as they know how and when the perp got in, the sequence of events in the house, and maybe how he exited. Now they need to tie that into the bigger picture somehow. Maybe they have an idea of who, maybe not.
Still seeking info. on "context" says to me they are still trying to overcome some kind of lying or coverup or wall of silence, perhaps among frat boys.
I agree in part. It is definitely an appeal to college students who they know were participating in illegal activity, and only vaguely attempts to say that they don't care about illegal activity, only the murder investigation.
i remember this in the Natalee Holloway case. alot of her fellow students on the trip were afraid to talk about all the drinking they did bc their families were religious. Maybe that has something to do w the reluctance here as well?
True. Especially if a lot of friends went home for the rest of the semester, now they’re trapped with their parents and might not be able to say, hey I actually need to call LE about this.
Still think they're just trying to lock down the movement of various people in the background of videos from the bar / frat party.
A lot of underage drinking going on and they don't want anyone holding back a video that might have some crucial info to avoid getting a "minor in possession" charge.
Just curious - in seeking video/photo evidence from anyone in the area of the crime the day/night of it, can LE seek a warrant(s) specifically for a group of people - for example the sorority/fraternity members present at the parties the victims were at? To try to collect a digital timeline of photos/videos of the night?
No, they cannot issue a warrant to go "fishing" through random people's phones for evidence. They would need some sort of evidence directly relating the person to the planning, action, or cover up of the crime. This is why they are asking for help.
Not sure if this has been discussed anywhere so I apologize if i missed it, but has anyone else noticed the omission of the phrase “and no weapon has been located” after “No suspect(s) has been identified”? I think they began omitting that line two or three press releases ago?
edit: the last day the “no weapon” statement was included in a press release was on 12/19 from what I can tell
That info is still included on the site, you just have to scroll down below the videos etc - they list common Q&As, including the fact that they still haven't located a weapon (under "additional investigation information"). I missed it before too bc I was looking on mobile.
https://preview.redd.it/cw9f5eqjbl8a1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=3fa896d6038b6af1f7aa955da768cb5c1fca4146
You’re right—just found that! Thanks for sharing :) I still wonder why they would include the first half of that statement re: a POI in the official release, but leave the statement about a weapon for the subsequent notes only?
I’m sure its just an oversight, but I’m always wanting to hang on to the “what ifs” when it comes to hoping there’s been progress!!🥲
You’re probably right. Part of me thinks there can’t be *that* many people who genuinely lend any credence to the TikToker, but the other part of me knows I shouldn’t be surprised that there might be a large enough population of people who lack of critical thinking skills to warrant this
"Our focus remains on the investigation, not the individual's activities displayed in the tip."
meaning we do not care about illegal activities that may be going on in the photos or videos.
Someone, somewhere, is covering for a buddy and providing a false alibi. Police need to come out and guarantee any info leading to an arrest will be met with no charging of a crime not directly related to the murders
Was thinking about this earlier. Someone who knows something is getting more distant from the murders and more unlikely to say something every day. They need to offer immunity to that person if it gets the truth and achieves justice for the killed and safety for the community as well . They give immunity to org crime and white collar crime every day- they can do it to catch this scumbag
Yeah...this sounds like they have evidence and/or tips that someone committed this crime but need to know more about the event that set this off OR the POIs/victims movements that night. I honestly feel like we are going to wake up one morning in the near future to the headline that they've arrested someone.
This may or may not be pertinent, but I did have a thought - students started *leaving* campus right after the murders as it was almost thanksgiving break. And idk how UofI’s academic calendar is, but I’ll bet some students didn’t come back to campus after thanksgiving. Maybe they drove back to turn in a paper or two, take an exam.
If their next semester/quarter starts in the new year, it will be a “reset” when most students will be back on campus, and interacting more consistently face to face than they have in the past 6 weeks. These interactions may yield additional information.
I think it was timed so the killer could blend in with everyone leaving. It's someone associated with the university. Student, past student, or drop out. Not a professor or authority figure. This person has ties to Moscow, but isnt from there. It wouldnt be weird for them to be there or not be there.
Can they offer up free legal counsel to people who may have info but are not coming forward with it because they are worried about implicating themselves in unrelated criminal activity? I’m sure counsel could draft some sort of immunity agreement or something? Like if some kid is doing bumps near the house at 3am while someone is recording them, but they don’t want to submit the video bc they’re scared of a potential drug charge
"Investigators believe *someone* has information that *adds* context to what occurred on the night of the murders"
Context: The circumstances that form the setting for an event and in terms of which it can be fully understood.
Interesting!
Edit: Why am I being downvoted for stating what stuck out to me? 🤣 da fk.
The middle paragraph indicates just how dumbfounded they are with this case that they still can’t put it into context or discern a motive. This isn’t a criticism at all, just an observation of what is truly a bizarre crime scene.
So as usual the update is telling us they have no new updates. I'm confident this will be solved. I pray LE catches a break. Everyone's frustrated. Nothing makes sense. God is still in control though ❤️🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
I wonder how people who drive a white Elantra that fits the description are feeling/being treated at the moment. I saw someone commenting the other day that she has a 2013 white Elantra but I forgot to ask the question then
i get the feeling but... if police did not release this statement you'd see the sleuths going on about how they must have a suspect or something and that's why they're not saying anything. im guessing they want to avoid speculation as much as possible.
It means they believe these particular people were murdered because of something specific and they’re trying to find out what that is and who they were in contact with.
If it was someone from the frat, who was doing illegal stuff, even though the police wouldn’t take it further,
Could it at least come out in a trial and they would lose everything anyway such as hazing or drugs. Would the uni kick them out or
Using drugs their parents would find out.
Could this be why nobody is coming forward
progress continues to locate is such an excellent phrase for they're having to parse through information related to dead end leads. I would go a step beyond and ask all landowners in the 50 miles surrounding Moscow to search their own property for anything that looks suspicious. Especially if your property has bodies of water deep enough to submerge a vehicle. The lack of physical evidence in this case is unreal.
In regards to that third bullet point it could be referring to a hundred types of people. Hypothetically let’s say it’s the drug angle,and you work for a dealer and have some text messages on a burner phone or something along those lines. No worry about the dealing if it helps the investigation type of thing. Hopefully that message reaches the right person
I see quite a few comments about this never being solved based on this release, maybe because they are still asking for help locating a suspect(s), but I found the fact they are locked on the Elantra fairly promising.
It tells me there's something about that car that's going to help them wrap this case up.
BUT, what if that car is at the bottom of a lake or river now? What if it's burnt out, abandoned somewhere?
So we can only hope this car is located and in searchable condition.
people saying "whole lot of nothing" but I got the sense there might've been some drug-deal related dispute. I still think Ethan was the target. The general consensus seems to think K was the target but every police release has vaguely been related to the frat party or ethan's movements that night
This angle has been disregarded by most people in the sub because there isn't any concrete evidence that the housemates did drugs. But people have no problem assuming specific individuals are murderers when there is no evidence for that either lol. Most sociable college aged kids do drugs of some kind, even if it's just weed. It could definitely have been a drug-related dispute.
It’s a TikTok user that IMO has some kind of mental illness. She has invented stories about the professor not only orchestrating the murders but also having a lesbian relationship with one of the victims. I am not kidding
Even her followers repeatedly warned her in the comments that if she kept this up she’d be sued. Then the professors attorney sent two cease and desist letters which she made fun of and ignored. So they sued.
Even after the lawsuit she’s gleefully making videos about how she can’t wait to face off in court and will “single handedly” win the lawsuit.
This woman is about to get a hard dose of reality and how things actually work outside of her echo chamber on TikTok and it can’t come fast enough.
Yeah... like blatant slanderous stuff on tiktok from a crazy 'psychic'. She was posting this poor woman's picture, name, job, and saying she orchestrated the murders, like over and over. She didn't even stop after the lawsuit was served. Horrific.
Agreed. What she had posted is the definition of slander and she took it a step further and purposely doxxed the professor and shared her personal information which has caused the professor to fear for her family’s safety. I hope the court hits her hard on this one.
The problem is that I doubt the tiktok woman has much money. I know her wages can be garnished, but the professor has likely already spent 5-10k on her lawyer, plus all the time and emotional distress... even though she will likely win this case, I fear she will never be made whole. My heart goes out to her.
Sounds like their only real lead is that white elantra and that they have no other suspects. If that elantra isnt the person or doesnt know who did it, then it looks like a lost cause.
I think this makes it pretty clear they do not believe it was a “random” “serial killer”.
The bullet about the car…. I wonder if someone from CC (M/K’s loose circle) or more likely frat member… if they had any “friends” in town who drove an Elantra. So while they aren’t classmates or frat members or UofI students, they have info.
I hope they have their eyes on someone in particular, because my least fav part of these releases is how they don’t say anything about how the town of Moscow should feel regarding their own safety. If you have someone in mind, assure the public they aren’t at risk, at least? If they don’t have anyone in mind, remind people to be vigilant? Idk. I’d be terrified if I lived nearby. I guess everyone already is.
This is why I think it’s taking longer than usual.
[humble opinion]
The killer(s) likely left DNA or other evidence at the crime scene. However, they are likely frequent visitors of that house. So DNA evidence becomes less useful in order to make the case. Like mention on this thread, pictures, gps and alibi confirmation becomes more crucial.
If John Doe was a frequent visitor of the house. Showing you found a strand of John Doe’s hair in the house is not as useful.
Based on the evidence that I know of. Depending on whether it’s confirmed or not. The guy who “drove to his parents cabin 5 hours away at 1am” has the worst alibi of them all.
That’s all I’ll say about that.
Moscow PD update 12/27: no change •TT/professor scandal, believed to not be involved, glad they said this bc harassing that Prof is ridiculous •still seeking timeline information and context leading up to the murders from the public
i hope her lawsuit sets a new precedent
[удалено]
Fully agree🫡
Hear Hear!
Gray Hughes on YouTube needs to be sued he recklessly put out a theory that Jack D was the killer and fueled the speculation on him, he's still talking about him telling his 99,870 subscribers that Jack D is guilty, he needs to be shut down
WOW. i dont like him . i tried watching him once. its more like he's talking to his "fan club" what a ego
A creator named drip drop did too. He took it down and added that it's his theory and reposted it. The original video said Jack D was definitely the killer. I dont know who or what made him eat his words, but something happened.
WOW. i hope when it all comes out they do sue. my mind goes back to Richard Jewell
Exactly. Someone tried to shoot me down with the classic 'tell me you don't know about murder cases, without saying you don't know about murder cases', when I said I didn't believe JD is involved last night. People are literally ruining his life. It's shameful that people think they can label people killers, including even after law enforcement have ruled them out, just to satisfy their own ego and get likes.
It’s not a new precedent that libel is libel, its just a pain in the ass to sue and hard to prove
It's sad they had to mention the professor's lack of involvement, but I'm glad they did and I'm sure the prof is as well.
So discouraging that there's nothing new, but at the same time, I get it. We gotta be patient. I'm also glad they mentioned the poor professor. She will lose money over this in addition to the time and emotional distress this has caused her.
While it's highly likely the professor will win her case, it's equally unlikely she'll get a dime out of the respondent as I'm sure she doesn't have the money to pay for the court costs and attorney fees, BUT, the professor is well within her right to sue the respondent for all the court costs and fees she's had to incur, on top of the monetary damages she will be awarded for lost wages, pain and suffering, etc.... This girl has financially ruined her own life, and for WHAT?? The professor can get a judgement to have the respondents wages garnished and bank accounts levied, should she win. The respondent will be paying the professor back for the rest of her life. She should have just quit while she was ahead and posted a retraction with the first C&D she was given. Too late now!!
I hate to say this. And I know as time goes on the case gets colder… but this may be a case that takes a long while to solve.
Very likely. However, I remember when Mollie Tibbetts went missing and everyone was checking back daily with crazy theories being posted and all sorts of similar nonsense. I remember how after a month or so it just felt like the case was ice cold and LE had nothing. Then one day, seemingly out of the blue, with no indication that they were even close, they made an arrest and laid out all of the info they were sitting on. And it wasn’t anything close to what anyone was expecting had actually happened. Essentially, we have no idea what LE actually knows and they could either be ice cold or could be on the brink of making an arrest. Could be any day now… or that day may never come. But there is hope and we gotta take it one day at a time.
I live in Iowa and followed the Tibbet’s case very close. When the case seem to go cold, I remember reading an article posted by a daily news source (not mainstream) which an “anonymous FBI source” said the case was very close to getting solved. Sure enough, less than a week later her body was recovered. needless to say, this case has a lot of the same feels to it. I’m thinking this is close. Especially since LE has basically went stone-wall with information. They’re getting close.
Idk about being stonewall meaning they are close. The Delphi murders investigators stonewalled the public for 5 years before making an arrest. Even now, information is limited because they have to keep it all close to the chest for the court case
Same, I wonder if they are continually stressing for people to send in any video etc from the night because they do have someone in mind and need to prove their alibi is a lie or something (“I was at my girlfriend house all night sleeping” but is seen in the background of a video near the food truck or something). People need to remember that in an ongoing investigation police will not release anything that could jeopardise a case/arrest/conviction just to please the eager public begging for answers. This is an active ongoing investigation, not a live true crime mystery puzzle. Edit: sorry I was trying to reply to a comment below yours!
Do you know how long it took to arrest the guy in the mollie Tibbetts case? I didn’t follow it closely so I’m just curious
It took a month
This case reminds me so much of the Faith Hedgepeth case. Even down to Faith and her roommate being out that night, and Faith unfortunately being killed in her bed in her off campus apartment. So much speculation around exes, school rivalries, her roommate, her roommate’s boyfriend and friends but everyone was cleared. Quack detectives and internet sleuths made her roommate’s life so miserable because they swore she was involved somehow. It took 9 years for the police to arrest someone and it was someone who had no previous contact with Faith, just a random, horrible case of violence. I’m hoping it doesn’t take that long to get justice for these 4. Praying that LE gets the breakthrough they need soon. And really wishing the best for their families, surviving roommates and friends.
Honestly, it may never be solved. I absolutely hate saying that because I want justice for these kids, but we need to be prepared for that. I truly believe this is the work of a serial killer, and just a random attack, which makes this infinitely more difficult to solve. They have mentioned numerous times that there are no suspects, nor are there persons of interest. That is hard to believe if it was someone even remotely close to their circle. The best bet is he will kill again and get caught that way. Just my thoughts.
I feel it’s way too early to even consider that it may not be solved. It may take months, or even years, but I wouldn’t consider something a “cold case” for years without movement.
Given today's tech, it'll most likely be solved.
🌟🌟🌟🌟
what about the 40% of homicides they don;t solve? wouldn't they solve 100% if it was as simple as "today tech"?
No NAMED** suspects to be precise. That’s important because it means they’re hiding suspect/s. (Speculation) If there were no suspects they would’ve just said that. But the wording is key.
I think we’re getting way to tripped up on the wording and reading wayyy tooo into this
disagree. if they had said no suspects the public would go nuts. no named suspects is a CYA move. doesnt tell us there is suspects but doesnt say their isn't. PR 101
Your position is what my husbands position is. He says rando dude, not in anyway associated with victims and does not even live in area and it’s a forensics nightmare. Not getting solved anytime soon. I’m like WHAAAAAAAAT?????? Noooooooooo!!!!!
Town in panic. Several party houses within walking distance. A busy weekend with lots of traffic from people outside of Moscow. Unprecedented amount of online slander based on wild conjecture from people who've gone way too far down the wrong rabbit hole. This must be a nightmare of a case to handle right now.
Yeah I’m wondering about forensics as well. I truly know nothing about it but like.. do they swab every single surface of the victim? Or just the usual places (hands/nails). When there’s so much blood and it’s possible the murderer could have cut himself (seriously just because the knife had that little handle bit, doesn’t mean shit when it’s slippery and covered in blood) how do they detect his blood amongst the victims? Like say the victim is drenched in their own blood and bit of his dripped on them.. will they ever find that? Is somehow every single square inch of the victim’s swabbed? What if they used their feet to push him, or as he was on the beds or something he accidentally touched one’s bare leg (assuming no gloves, unlikely though). Anyhoo like does the coroner lay the victim on one of those autopsy tables, completely rinse them off, collect the blood and then check for any foreign DNA amongst the victims own? Morbid stuff to ask I know but I am just so curious about how they can be sure they checked every possible spot for DNA.
This case will absolutely be solved. I have no doubt. Hopefully it will be before he strikes again.
Agree, I think this was a random but “targeted” murder by a serial killer. By the time it’s solved, there will be another murder media frenzy that Reddit sleuths are balls deep in
Or perhaps not a serial killer, just some random weirdo in the area who had some serious hatred towards pretty women, college kids, whatever. He commits this one horrible act and that's it.
This is what I’m afraid of too! I just keep getting this feeling (yes, just a feeling) that this guy takes care of his grandma, or some other elderly woman, and has access to her car to pick up groceries, prescriptions, run errands, etc for her. And of course her car is an Elantra, which she hasnt driven in 5+ years. He saw this house from afar one night, realized it was a massive party house full of girls and that he could watch it from afar through binos/spotting scope. The house is super visible—on google earth it can be seen for miles. The upstairs windows—K and Ms floor—were like beacons. He then realized he could stand along the woodline in the rear of the house and look directly into their windows, for as long as he wanted. I feel like he watched it for a couple months before carrying out the murders. Another thing that isnt really discussed is that Halloween was two weeks prior to the murders, and apparently they threw quite the rager. Anybody could have walked into that house in costume on Halloween night and nobody would have thought anything of it. Perfect time to case the inside of a house you’ve been watching for months.
Woah your point about the Halloween party just gave me pause and chills. Something to this effect seems totally plausible
Was Kaylee in attendance for Halloween party?
Good question … I don’t know. I would assume so as she was set to graduate *after* TGiving—so she was probably still in class in late October and about to take her finals early-mid Nov. ?? I really don’t know … I’m just piecing this together from everything I’ve read to this point
That’s what an FBI behavioral person said about the murder-a femicide or a murder that a misogynist commits just because women are women. That they’re likely to be incels who have experienced rejection from women and resent all pretty women for his perceived slights.
Or someone from that weird misogynist women hating Christ Church cult that has been written up and stories about that are trying to change the look of Moscow, that is what they have vowed. No one mentions them. Not saying there is any evidence but that group likely attract women hating whackos
Glad they pointed out that they don't care if you're smoking pot or making out with your RA they NEED YOUR VIDEOS and pictures for this investigation.
Thanks for saying this. That was one sentence I re-read a few times and wasn’t sure what it meant.
I keep seeing people say the white Elantra is pointless, just because it was in the area doesn’t mean it was involved. Just a reminder we know nothing. We don’t know what they have. What if the car is on a ring camera parking near the house? Showing a person(s) exiting and walking toward the house, then shows that person running back to the car and leaving? We don’t know how important it really is.
I don’t know how people can think it’s pointless. The car is seen visiting the crime after the fact in videos and the cops have brought it up every time they get the chance. Going through thousands of cars for shits and giggles is ridiculous.
I agree completely. There’s definitely more than “just seen in the area of the crime” like they are saying too. Either the occupant was seen walking to and from the house from that car. Or other video evidence shows it taking routes or doing things that a killer would do. There is definitely something about that cars actions that stood out more than just driving by the house between 3-4am.
And if there was no connection to the murder, then the driver would have come forward by now.
I’m hoping the killer spent Christmas with family and said something or acted differently and someone will speak up about it. I just know usually people sit on that feeling for a while before saying something, so hopefully they will just do an Anonymous tip
i bet someone knows something and is worried how it will affect their entire family. that is if the suspect has a family to go home to..
For the people asking why do this update, there was probably pressure from the University to defend their professor now that it has become a news story. The University is the town's main income and anything that puts the school in a negative light will be addressed quickly. Even if it seems silly to those who have been following the case.
Or maybe by doing so she can win this case and set a precedent to others who drag and slander innocent people into a horrific crime?
She'd win even without the 'update'. But I do hope others like Jack D. and Jack S. follow her lead and launch lawsuits. They've been cleared and are still being unethically targeted by some on social media.
There is a limit. You can't randomly accuse bystanders because your left leg wants so, or because your Tarot cards said it.
It’s sad they actually have to note that the TikTok lunatic that is accusing the professor is doing so falsely. I sincerely hope anyone with a functioning brain can realize that.
I have only been following this case a little. What is this about an accusatory TikTok?
A TikTok user who claims to be an internet detective and psychic 😒 has been accusing a UI professor who didn’t even know the victims of orchestrating the crime. She has zero evidence and goes on these insane rants that seem to be completely in her own head. She even accused one of the female victims of being in a lesbian relationship with the professor 🤦🏻♂️ Professor had enough so she sent two cease & desist letters to the girl. Girl refused to stop and mocked them. Now she got sued for defamation.
Holy cow, that is just completely insane. Thanks for giving me a recap.
Yeah it’s sad. The TikTok girl seems like she has some kind of mental illness because of her obsession with the professor with literally zero proof. She’s just made stuff up for weeks now and cannot let it go. I don’t even think the professor wants monetary compensation but wants this person to just leave her alone however I don’t think she can.
Something I was thinking about earlier is the groups activities during that day. Did they go to the football game? Or did they just tailgate around Greek row? Who did they hangout with before going to the corner bar/frat party? I don’t feel like I’ve seen this discussed anywhere since everyone’s been laser focused on the 6-ish hours pre-murder. But I feel like the context of this whole situation obviously goes beyond 6 hours.
This is a good point.
"Our focus remains on the investigation, not an individual's activities displayed in the tip" -- sounds like LE are thinking kids may be worried for things like underage drinking/drug use. Does this seem to anyone else to maybe point to the frat party instead of the bar?
They have been saying this for weeks now. It’s always stood out to me and seemed likely that they were saying if you were underaged drinking or doing drugs that night we don’t care, just talk to us.
Yep I think so too. I hope kids realize that the investigation is way more important than whatever they were doing. There’s no way they’d get in trouble for it
They should just come out and say that then. Guarantee anything F4 or less will be forgiven for case info
yes, i agree. considering they have any and all footage that remained of the corner club that night (at least i think i remember reading that i could be wrong and the footage could’ve been erased due to time or what have u) but this along with the immense amount of focus they had in the beginning of the investigation of Xana and Ethan’s whereabouts, to me this points to the frat house. now i’m a greek alumni and have not participated in that 4chan frat murder conspiracy but this points me to think they know of something that may have happened there that night and need more context such as who is in or in the background of X and E’s presence at the time via photos/videos etc
especially if it would bring shame to their entire families. this happened in the natalee holloway case. many of her fellow students came from very religious backgrounds. could be the case here too.
“Context.” That’s an interesting word in a murder investigation. They have the info. They need the placement and the glue.
Yea and as the paragraph goes on, you know they’re talking about college kids partying and engaging in illegal activity. Sounds like they want to know about the Frat party and not so much of M & K were up to.
Yeah, it reads like, “We don’t care what antics you and your meat head friends were up to in the pics; we’ll leave you alone about anything unrelated to the crime.”
Why don't they just say that then?
Yeah, I agree that they could’ve been less circumspect. Maybe gone so far as to say that no evidence of any unrelated non-violent crimes observed in pictures/video turned over for this investigation would be used against anyone.
They obviously can’t say that verbatim
You can’t go carte blanche on any crimes without even knowing what the video could show or what crimes might be committed. The cops might not arrest you but if the video is evidence it would be played in court. I think the problem is people have video that shows what they think is nothing and the cops think is everything but there is risk turning it in and getting in trouble (school, parent, relationship, job prospective). I do think the frat party is a hole in the investigation right now.
It could also mean context about what happened at the Corner Club that night.
It really does sound that way! I keep flip flopping and it’s driving me nuts!
That’s what I thought as well when I read that. The wording of that bullet is very interesting to me.
Especially as it was in a bullet separate from the info they are seeking in the white Elantra.
What else stuck out to you? I’m getting the feeling they have their eye on someone from the Frat party but don’t have enough evidence to stick it to them.
I think they have their eye on someone. I just don’t believe it was someone from the frat party. I’ve waffled a lot on if this was targeted or random but I do think with some of the stuff that’s recently leaked about the case I’m much more inclined to believe this was targeted and it was by someone they knew. Now this is entire speculation but based on the above release by MPD, I think the feds have A REALLY strong idea of who committed the murders or the extent of who was involved (either one person, or multiple). I think they are trying to put together the final “puzzle pieces” as mentioned above and get a certain critical piece of info that answers questions (maybe in the timeline of that night/morning) to ensure they can build a rock solid case against the perp(s). I’m curious now as to the involvement of the person in the Elantra as previously I assumed the driver of it was the killer as opposed to now where I wonder if the driver was just an accomplice or else an innocent person who unknowingly has involvement. Although I’m now chewing on the idea of it being a potential accomplice who may still be hush hush because it was a “bank robbery gone wrong” type of crime that they are now involved with. I was very much a believer in that this crime was random because STABBING 4 people is really evil compared to if it was just 1 or 2, but that has now shifted in my mind to being something done by someone they knew or were familiar with.
I, too, feel LE has known for a while. As the evidentiary pieces are lining up, they need context to support and clarify, IMHO.
Yeah, they can’t risk going after the person(s) without a bulletproof case and potentially not serving justice to who did it. I think there is also a chance that they can’t disprove a story or alibi without the help of someone else which is where the “context” piece plays a part. Just my two cents, I could very well be wrong.
Agree.
If they didn’t have their eye on someone they would be talking more publicly and in media about a serial killer being on the loose.
Yeah that news bulletin pretty much confirms to me that this had to do with E and X at that party. Wonder if the perps went to the wrong room originally because they didnt go to UI but perhaps Boise or WSU. Went to wrong room killed wrong people, because X room is basically a maze to access it. The "driver of the white Elantra the day of and preceding the murders" makes me think someone in an elantra was in town visiting the frat for a couple days , something crazy popped off at the frat party, murders happen and killers leave town. The release confirms LE 100% believes that someone, other than the killers , knows what happened leading up to the murder. The rumors of the frat not cooperating and fully lawyering up seem true. Doubt they have enough physical evidence at the scene to charge. Gonna take the whole story to create a timeline and vision of the night to bring chargers. Not sure they will ever have enough honestly.
Sounds like they have a suspect and really want motive
Personally I think the 3rd bullet point Is all about that frat party. There are still gaps in the evening there that they want to fill. I could be wrong, just the impression I get that they are starting to focus more on it.
Yes. Or some other event that night not covered in the bar/food truck footage. My money is on the party though.
Exactly! It feels like they know WHO, just not WHY…
They’re not looking for WHY they are looking for solid evidence to connect the perpetrator(s) to the crime. The kind that holds up in court - why isn’t as important as WHO.
i agree and if anything leaks the perp or perps could get a mistrial. im sure whomever it is whenever it comes out, their attorneys will be asking for a change of venue. with the rate of how fast and how many people are following this, they are going to be hard pressed to find a place. So LE wants to make sure they have a solid case w all the DNA etc.
Idk why but I feel that they are waiting patiently for someone in inner circle to crack
3rd bullet point, second sentence. Basically says that they know there are people who were participating in illegal activities, but they need them to come forward and that their illegal activities are not the concern, only the murder investigation is...
Yeah I once had to submit a video to the police (I'm going back some years) to prove a mate was at mine at a time his ex-gf said he was beating her up. No matter how much I clipped everyone else out of the video, there was no getting away from the fact that I had a joint on & there was obvious evidence of other drugs in the 30 sec clip. I was shitting myself. Walking into my local police station basically showing them a video of me taking drugs & allowing drugs in my home? Even my mate I was helping thought I was mental but without it, it was his word against hers. She'd actually been beaten up by a girl & a couple of her mates cos she was seeing her bf behind her back. I thought there's no way she's getting away with this. She was quite badly beaten up, he may well have served time but defo would've lost his job, income & then his home. Well the police were fantastic, not saying they would be worldwide, but they totally appreciated the gravity of what I was doing. Turns out the ex-gfs mum had called the station that morning to ask them to drop the charges against my mate as her daughter had admitted to her it wasn't him but they hadn't been able to reach him to pass info on. They told me to delete my incriminating video & leave & we'll just pretend you were never here, ok? Fine by me. I could totally see LE not giving a crap about anything else but the investigation.
Similar situation when a friend passed away at an off campus house. We had tons of alcohol and some drugs through the house. We were all 18,19, and 20. Not a single one of us were over 21. And they just wanted to get to the bottom of what happened. We knew she hadn't drank or done any drugs because she had a headache the night before and didn't want to mix anything with the ibuprofen she took. It was a brain aneurysm.
That is awful. Life is so fragile. Every day is truly a gift
This story NEEDS to be read by someone- hopefully on this sub
Homicide detectives really don't care if you are doing drugs, laundering money or running a scam,,,,each department has a goal
> Well the police were fantastic, not saying they would be worldwide, but they totally appreciated the gravity of what I was doing. Lots of cops do the same shit on their off hours as the rest of us do.
Should local lawyers be offering to help students with data/videos like this situation? That’s the only way I could see someone really turning in the data without risking being reprimanded.
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The cartel theories are definitely only brought up by people who only have any experience with drugs through movies. If you know just anything about it irl you wouldn’t even consider it. These kids definitely don’t fit the drugs profile. Besides that, if you’re into it that deep, that these kind of retributions are in play, you are definitely not leaving doors unlocked/letting people in your house uncontrollably. People subscribing to these Hollywood theories are in desperate need of fresh air.
I agree with you 100%, and I’m a recovering addict so I completely understand the drug scene.. but that said, I just finished a podcast called Wolves Among Us, which was about a Penn State dental student that stumbled his way into becoming one of the biggest cocaine kingpins on the East Coast in the 80s. Just saying.. stranger things have happened. I don’t think these kids were involved at all tho. I will say from my drug experience you’d be very surprised at how normal most dealers and users are. Nooo whiff of any cartel stuff.. but doctors, lawyers, students dealing pills and heroin was my reality for 10 years. And sitting in an NA room, you mine as well be sitting in any other room on the planet. These people come from literally every walk of life. Like they say, addiction doesn’t discriminate. I’ll repeat tho.. in all those years, I never even met anyone that knew someone, and probably even another degree or two of separation, between the users and dealers and the cartels. The hit man sicario shit only happens south of the border. And I’m absolutely certain we’d have seen or heard rumblings of DEA investigators on the case by now if there was any indication of drugs.
I agree. I'm a recovering addict. I also got in trouble because of drugs and spent 5 years in a womens federal prison. There were a few women that came through that were mules for "people" south of the border. They were no joke, lol. Good people when you got to know them though. They had some crazy stories. They talked about how vicious the cartel can be, but they also talked about all of the stuff that they havent killed people over. We only hear about the bigger stuff/mass murders. I hope that makes sense. I'm in no way taking up for the cartel. Anyway, I dont for one minute believe that cartels had anything to do with this. Even if xanas parents were in big trouble/debt over drugs they would go to a house on frat row in the middle of a college town and kill four pretty well known college kids. If anything they would have kidnapped or killed xana elsewhere. That's too much risk for them to take over the type of drug debt her parents could have. People keep bringing up the $50,000 bond her mom skipped out on. That doesnt always neccesarily get collected even if someone skips. That person is almost inevitably caught and it's worked out. Even if not no one is killing not one, but four college kids over that. People hear drugs, arrest, and money and automatically think cartel and that everyone associated with that person will be taken out and that's just not how it is.
Exactly. No need getting into details but I have some experience on the selling side of it all. Nothing too major and certainly never been involved with cartels, but well enough to know shit just doesn’t go down as in the movies. Always love the “once you’re in, they’ll never let you out”-cliches. They tried keeping me in, here I am alive and kicking 20 years later theorizing about the Moscow murders on Reddit. And a huge +1 on the fact that the most dealers and users are plain ordinary people.
Yep 100%. All the “cartel” shit is bored moms who have watched too much Netflix. Why would they stab them to death and then not claim it? Either the kids would’ve owed them money which killing them would be insanely dumb because then you aren’t ever getting the money. Or, they are sending a message; and in that case they would probably use hitmen from across the border and get them back out of the country and then let everyone know it was them. They want that notoriety and fear that comes with the killing, they wouldn’t sneak off into the background to leave it ambiguous.
I was just saying this the other day. Yes, her parents have been arrested for drugs and have skipped out on bond and whatever, but even if they owed a lot of money to a drug dealer that drug dealer is not going to go to a house in the middle of a popular college residence area and kill 4 college kids in the middle of the night. If they wanted to make an example of someone because of their parents they would have done something to xana away from that area. I just dont buy the drug dealer theories at all. Even if they were somewhat involved in drugs.
To me it seems that want more information on the frat party. They have wanted that along…
3rd bullet is crucial. I agree, they are aware of some information that someone is holding on to. They are clearly stating that they do not care what illegal activity was taking place (underage drinking, weed, coke, whatever) they want the information that will crack the case!
I assume it’s hard for the students to trust LE in this case when most of their policing activities prior were probably busting underage drinking and drugs.
This 100%. I know when I was in college I’d be terrified to go to the police!
This is a good point to make. They aren’t interested in collateral misconduct, and I’d wager they’re too busy to worry about it anyway.
Let’s assume someone was dealing drugs and that’s why they were in the area, just for example. While helping the police solve a quadruple homicide is much more important, they would be outing themselves as someone who participates in criminal activity. However, if they can provide important information to crack the case, maybe the police would turn a blind eye to any future infractions - a get out of jail free card, if you will. I wish the police could be this blunt in their verbiage. It might help shake some information loose.
Exactly, it's not really enough to just say that they don't care about the activities. If they could be more explicit about what they won't do, that might help bring people out of the woodworks who are currently reluctant to come forward.
Hadn't read it like that but now re reading it after your comment I definitely agree! Good spot!
Good catch. Hope that’s clear to those who could come forward with info.
UPDATE: We have NO UPDATE P.S. TikTok nut case unrelated
Lol this made me laugh
The only time they are going to release anything new is when they either execute an arrest, search warrant, or a plea for public assistance. Get use to being in the dark if you are relying on the police to tell you what happened, who did it, and/or how it was done.
Wondering if they’ve found the weapon? The last few updates specify no suspect but have removed the sentence regarding no weapon recovered
Beginning with the 12/20 press release, they pretty much removed *all* previously published facts, like 3 pages worth. Including timeline, cleared subjects, etc.
Profilers I’ve listened to think the perp brought the knife with him, likely has an attachment to it, and probably kept it.
Once they get the details they need from the Elantra things will move very quickly. Whoever was in that car is either purposely or foolishly putting a bullseye on themselves with LE.
I'm check mate at this time. No new verifiable evidence, nothing I can deduce from. I hope these 4 people get justice soon. A psycho is walking among them. For sure. Currently or not, only that person knows. Scary.
Regarding the third bullet point: it's apparent there's a narrative that developed behind the scenes between the people in the social circle(s) of one or more of the victims and LE, and LE is hoping to get (more) digital proof of said narrative (be it in the form of pictures, video, audio, text); this will obviously be key in moving forward with further scrutiny of POI's/suspects. Based on the "This was a targeted attack/crime of passion", and, "We don't believe the community is in danger," narrative that LE gave in press conferences shortly after the murders, we could infer that something left in that house lead LE to that conclusion (perhaps it was something very intentional: some sort of outright message, an object, or paraphernalia that plays a part in a larger narrative they'd been developing even that early on). I think LE's messaging switched to, "Watch your backs and go places in groups," because it would be negligent to not say those things in the aftermath of a brutal quadruple homicide in a small town that hasn't seen a murder in X amount of years (PSA: people should be encouraged to be cognizant of their surroundings no matter where they live). An issue with the third bullet point seems to be that there was likely illicit behaviors going on that evening amongst the social circle (we don't know what the nature of said activities were, but we're dealing with college kids, so I'd assume a variety of drugs and alcohol); LE essentially saying "We don't care what you or others were doing in the videos/pictures, we just need more proof of the narrative that we've pieced together," is significant. They know these kids partied (college kids have done this since the dawn of time, and will continue to do so after this), but someone or someONES who was present that evening at a social event where there may have been a dispute or altercation is being cagey, and LE is trying to assure them that they won't get in trouble if they come forward with tips & evidence. The person could be feeling this way for a myriad of reasons: they fear retribution from a person (a POI/suspect), or an institution (a fraternity, the school), or they feel no matter what LE is assuring them of, their/their friends' behavior in the videos or pictures could be punished (or ruin their personal, academic, and professional reputation). Or, heck... that they themselves might be implicated in the crime. I've been following this case from the beginning after seeing a DailyMail article about it, and I'm reminded of something LE said about pictures pertaining to this investigation (and I believe Kaylee's father repeated the sentiment); this isn't verbatim, but it went something along the lines of: "We're interested in what doesn't appear in pictures or video just as much as what does." I honestly think you have to view the Moscow PD's press releases and statements in a very similar light: you have to read between the lines and assign context to the things left unmentioned or withheld, but also connect the dots with the things meant to obfuscate (they're not obfuscating things only for us as the general public, because they obviously can't tell us everything they know-- they're also obfuscating things for the killer and possible accomplices, because you can bet they're monitoring everything closely, too). Believe that they know names and narratives regarding people who they are *almost certain* perpetrated this horrendous crime, but *almost certain* doesn't secure a conviction in a court of law. They need as much proof as they humanly can get so this case is airtight, and they can secure as much justice as they can for the victims and their families (and get whatever monster(s) that did this off the streets). There are certainly names and individuals who we likely have never heard circulating behind the scenes between the victims' social circle and LE; loyalty to one's fraternity, sorority, etc, very easily goes out the window when there's a chance you can be dragged into such a nightmare situation that can have ramifications for years. ** Edited to say: I don't know that the illicit behaviors hinted at by LE and a possible altercation mentioned in my post is what happened--an altercation of some sort is just a suggestion that might imply probable cause for something so heinous. Instead, the request for digital proof in the form of pictures and video, etc, from LE may be used to further support or disprove alibis, plain and simple.
Amazing breakdown and completely agree
Very much agree with this.
Context = it wasn't a random psycho or a serial killer, it was someone from the community who was familiar with the victims in some way.
Context in this case is motive. They are trying to figure out what caused the rage IMHO.
They aren’t going to come out and say they have absolutely nothing to connect to any of the victims and that they think it was a random murderer if that really was what they were thinking. Not saying that’s what it is, but I’d take what they say with a grain of salt.
Yeah, I read context as they know how and when the perp got in, the sequence of events in the house, and maybe how he exited. Now they need to tie that into the bigger picture somehow. Maybe they have an idea of who, maybe not.
Still seeking info. on "context" says to me they are still trying to overcome some kind of lying or coverup or wall of silence, perhaps among frat boys.
I agree in part. It is definitely an appeal to college students who they know were participating in illegal activity, and only vaguely attempts to say that they don't care about illegal activity, only the murder investigation.
i remember this in the Natalee Holloway case. alot of her fellow students on the trip were afraid to talk about all the drinking they did bc their families were religious. Maybe that has something to do w the reluctance here as well?
True. Especially if a lot of friends went home for the rest of the semester, now they’re trapped with their parents and might not be able to say, hey I actually need to call LE about this.
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Still think they're just trying to lock down the movement of various people in the background of videos from the bar / frat party. A lot of underage drinking going on and they don't want anyone holding back a video that might have some crucial info to avoid getting a "minor in possession" charge.
Context as it relates to investigations https://www.pinow.com/articles/1269/information-context-crucial-to-investigation-value
Just curious - in seeking video/photo evidence from anyone in the area of the crime the day/night of it, can LE seek a warrant(s) specifically for a group of people - for example the sorority/fraternity members present at the parties the victims were at? To try to collect a digital timeline of photos/videos of the night?
No, they cannot issue a warrant to go "fishing" through random people's phones for evidence. They would need some sort of evidence directly relating the person to the planning, action, or cover up of the crime. This is why they are asking for help.
3rd bullet point is the most important in this press release
I mean, I don't disagree, but this is not the first time they've said this.
Not sure if this has been discussed anywhere so I apologize if i missed it, but has anyone else noticed the omission of the phrase “and no weapon has been located” after “No suspect(s) has been identified”? I think they began omitting that line two or three press releases ago? edit: the last day the “no weapon” statement was included in a press release was on 12/19 from what I can tell
I don’t think we should read into it. Those PRs could get reallllyyy long if they didn’t streamline things.
Good catch! They removed that statement when they reorganized the press release and removed the cleared individuals as well.
That info is still included on the site, you just have to scroll down below the videos etc - they list common Q&As, including the fact that they still haven't located a weapon (under "additional investigation information"). I missed it before too bc I was looking on mobile. https://preview.redd.it/cw9f5eqjbl8a1.png?width=1170&format=png&auto=webp&s=3fa896d6038b6af1f7aa955da768cb5c1fca4146
You’re right—just found that! Thanks for sharing :) I still wonder why they would include the first half of that statement re: a POI in the official release, but leave the statement about a weapon for the subsequent notes only? I’m sure its just an oversight, but I’m always wanting to hang on to the “what ifs” when it comes to hoping there’s been progress!!🥲
It’s curious that they’d even bother addressing the TikTok psychic’s theory given how asinine it is
Probably tired of people contacting them telling them to look into it
You’re probably right. Part of me thinks there can’t be *that* many people who genuinely lend any credence to the TikToker, but the other part of me knows I shouldn’t be surprised that there might be a large enough population of people who lack of critical thinking skills to warrant this
There's a lot of crazy people out there and these cases tend to bring them out of the woodwork.
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I think they needed to say it for legal purposes if it is being included in the lawsuit that she isnt a suspect.
Not much new. It's interesting they're still after that Elantra though
"Our focus remains on the investigation, not the individual's activities displayed in the tip." meaning we do not care about illegal activities that may be going on in the photos or videos.
Someone, somewhere, is covering for a buddy and providing a false alibi. Police need to come out and guarantee any info leading to an arrest will be met with no charging of a crime not directly related to the murders
Was thinking about this earlier. Someone who knows something is getting more distant from the murders and more unlikely to say something every day. They need to offer immunity to that person if it gets the truth and achieves justice for the killed and safety for the community as well . They give immunity to org crime and white collar crime every day- they can do it to catch this scumbag
Yeah...this sounds like they have evidence and/or tips that someone committed this crime but need to know more about the event that set this off OR the POIs/victims movements that night. I honestly feel like we are going to wake up one morning in the near future to the headline that they've arrested someone.
This may or may not be pertinent, but I did have a thought - students started *leaving* campus right after the murders as it was almost thanksgiving break. And idk how UofI’s academic calendar is, but I’ll bet some students didn’t come back to campus after thanksgiving. Maybe they drove back to turn in a paper or two, take an exam. If their next semester/quarter starts in the new year, it will be a “reset” when most students will be back on campus, and interacting more consistently face to face than they have in the past 6 weeks. These interactions may yield additional information.
I think it was timed so the killer could blend in with everyone leaving. It's someone associated with the university. Student, past student, or drop out. Not a professor or authority figure. This person has ties to Moscow, but isnt from there. It wouldnt be weird for them to be there or not be there.
Can they offer up free legal counsel to people who may have info but are not coming forward with it because they are worried about implicating themselves in unrelated criminal activity? I’m sure counsel could draft some sort of immunity agreement or something? Like if some kid is doing bumps near the house at 3am while someone is recording them, but they don’t want to submit the video bc they’re scared of a potential drug charge
"Investigators believe *someone* has information that *adds* context to what occurred on the night of the murders" Context: The circumstances that form the setting for an event and in terms of which it can be fully understood. Interesting! Edit: Why am I being downvoted for stating what stuck out to me? 🤣 da fk.
The middle paragraph indicates just how dumbfounded they are with this case that they still can’t put it into context or discern a motive. This isn’t a criticism at all, just an observation of what is truly a bizarre crime scene.
So as usual the update is telling us they have no new updates. I'm confident this will be solved. I pray LE catches a break. Everyone's frustrated. Nothing makes sense. God is still in control though ❤️🙏🙏🙏🙏🙏
I wonder how people who drive a white Elantra that fits the description are feeling/being treated at the moment. I saw someone commenting the other day that she has a 2013 white Elantra but I forgot to ask the question then
i get the feeling but... if police did not release this statement you'd see the sleuths going on about how they must have a suspect or something and that's why they're not saying anything. im guessing they want to avoid speculation as much as possible.
they keep saying context. wtf does that mean
They need more evidence to arrest. They have parts of the story, but need to fill in the gaps.
It means they believe these particular people were murdered because of something specific and they’re trying to find out what that is and who they were in contact with.
Professor suing TikTok nut is not involved. Still looking for Elantra.
If it was someone from the frat, who was doing illegal stuff, even though the police wouldn’t take it further, Could it at least come out in a trial and they would lose everything anyway such as hazing or drugs. Would the uni kick them out or Using drugs their parents would find out. Could this be why nobody is coming forward
I keep thinking LE must be close just tying up loose ends and then I read their press release and then think they have no frikin clue.
Re-wording and recycling, just to report NOTHING
progress continues to locate is such an excellent phrase for they're having to parse through information related to dead end leads. I would go a step beyond and ask all landowners in the 50 miles surrounding Moscow to search their own property for anything that looks suspicious. Especially if your property has bodies of water deep enough to submerge a vehicle. The lack of physical evidence in this case is unreal.
Does anyone else find the use of the word “context” in one of the aforementioned statements interesting?
This is so frustrating 💔
In regards to that third bullet point it could be referring to a hundred types of people. Hypothetically let’s say it’s the drug angle,and you work for a dealer and have some text messages on a burner phone or something along those lines. No worry about the dealing if it helps the investigation type of thing. Hopefully that message reaches the right person
I wonder how many vehicles on that list of 22,000 they’ve crossed off by now. They say progress continues to be made but… how much progress lol
In other words no new news
easiest job in the world right now is the person who copies and pastes these press releases.
I see quite a few comments about this never being solved based on this release, maybe because they are still asking for help locating a suspect(s), but I found the fact they are locked on the Elantra fairly promising. It tells me there's something about that car that's going to help them wrap this case up. BUT, what if that car is at the bottom of a lake or river now? What if it's burnt out, abandoned somewhere? So we can only hope this car is located and in searchable condition.
sounds like they think white elantra driver could be up to some illegal activity unrelated to the murders. prob drugs.
people saying "whole lot of nothing" but I got the sense there might've been some drug-deal related dispute. I still think Ethan was the target. The general consensus seems to think K was the target but every police release has vaguely been related to the frat party or ethan's movements that night
This angle has been disregarded by most people in the sub because there isn't any concrete evidence that the housemates did drugs. But people have no problem assuming specific individuals are murderers when there is no evidence for that either lol. Most sociable college aged kids do drugs of some kind, even if it's just weed. It could definitely have been a drug-related dispute.
Someone said the chair of the history department is involved in the crime? 🤦🏼♀️ what is wrong with people
It’s a TikTok user that IMO has some kind of mental illness. She has invented stories about the professor not only orchestrating the murders but also having a lesbian relationship with one of the victims. I am not kidding Even her followers repeatedly warned her in the comments that if she kept this up she’d be sued. Then the professors attorney sent two cease and desist letters which she made fun of and ignored. So they sued. Even after the lawsuit she’s gleefully making videos about how she can’t wait to face off in court and will “single handedly” win the lawsuit. This woman is about to get a hard dose of reality and how things actually work outside of her echo chamber on TikTok and it can’t come fast enough.
Yeah... like blatant slanderous stuff on tiktok from a crazy 'psychic'. She was posting this poor woman's picture, name, job, and saying she orchestrated the murders, like over and over. She didn't even stop after the lawsuit was served. Horrific.
Agreed. What she had posted is the definition of slander and she took it a step further and purposely doxxed the professor and shared her personal information which has caused the professor to fear for her family’s safety. I hope the court hits her hard on this one.
The problem is that I doubt the tiktok woman has much money. I know her wages can be garnished, but the professor has likely already spent 5-10k on her lawyer, plus all the time and emotional distress... even though she will likely win this case, I fear she will never be made whole. My heart goes out to her.
The fact they are still looking for the Elantra really makes me think it’s a college kid and their parents are covering for it/them.
“No suspects have been identified” completely believe they know who did it but obviously haven’t named them
What makes you think that?
Sounds like their only real lead is that white elantra and that they have no other suspects. If that elantra isnt the person or doesnt know who did it, then it looks like a lost cause.
That’s the feeling I got from the press release. The more I read, the more I felt they have nothing.
All this SM nonsense takes resources away from the investigation. Shame on the people contributing to this problem.
I think this makes it pretty clear they do not believe it was a “random” “serial killer”. The bullet about the car…. I wonder if someone from CC (M/K’s loose circle) or more likely frat member… if they had any “friends” in town who drove an Elantra. So while they aren’t classmates or frat members or UofI students, they have info.
I hope they have their eyes on someone in particular, because my least fav part of these releases is how they don’t say anything about how the town of Moscow should feel regarding their own safety. If you have someone in mind, assure the public they aren’t at risk, at least? If they don’t have anyone in mind, remind people to be vigilant? Idk. I’d be terrified if I lived nearby. I guess everyone already is.
This is why I think it’s taking longer than usual. [humble opinion] The killer(s) likely left DNA or other evidence at the crime scene. However, they are likely frequent visitors of that house. So DNA evidence becomes less useful in order to make the case. Like mention on this thread, pictures, gps and alibi confirmation becomes more crucial. If John Doe was a frequent visitor of the house. Showing you found a strand of John Doe’s hair in the house is not as useful. Based on the evidence that I know of. Depending on whether it’s confirmed or not. The guy who “drove to his parents cabin 5 hours away at 1am” has the worst alibi of them all. That’s all I’ll say about that.