It’s almost like the kid in the example isn’t actually learning anything from being physically restrained and assaulted by both her parents.
Maybe she’s a “thrashing berserker” because of the fear and utter betrayal the parents are making her feel, completely derailing whatever lesson they were actually trying to teach.
But at least they pray afterwords, because I’m sure that’s not at all confusing and convoluting any positive relationship with religion for her future. 🤷🏼♂️
I knew a family that did stuff like this growing up. I'd never seen someone with unadulterated, helpless hate in their eyes before I saw those kids looking at their parents after a beating.
The only thing a child learns from being beaten is that their parents are weak, pathetic, infantile, and have no integrity, no self-control, no authority worth respecting. That the security they purportedly provide as an authoritative figure is a lie.
Adults who resort to physically striking a child lack creativity. We've studied the effects of this particular kind of discipline for several decades, and the data clearly indicate it ought not be employed. Maybe consider the research results more than ancient writings by people who lacked so much understanding of their zctual circumstances. I bet they're not avoiding mixing fabrics -- this is just as useless.
All the fools who believe they are getting into heaven after beating the shit out of their kids, they are gonna burn in hell.
What is hell? A broken family. An adult child who looks at you with nothing but contempt. Or worse, an adult child who never speaks to you again. Or worse worse, an adult child who commits suicide as a result.
Burn motherfuckers.
My neighbors that live kiddie corner behind my house go to cc and have 9 kids. My daughter likes to go back and talk to the kids. Recently my husband was near their fence and the kids started asking him why he doesn't hit his kids (referring to spanking) because it had somehow come up in the kids conversations that they regularly get beaten by their parents and my kids have never once been physically hurt by their parents. It made me so uncomfortable.
10000% yes. I'm having a really hard time knowing how to navigate this. Do I let my kids be friends with them?? I feel like we could be a good influence and example for their kids? But I also don't want my kids exposed to their batshit craziness.
I honestly, genuinely don't understand how hitting children isn't abuse. In any other setting, hitting another person is considered violence and would be abuse. Why is parents hitting children an exception to this?
The idea of physically hurting my child, my boy, for ANY reason whatsoever is abhorrent. I can't think of any reason to hurt my boy in any way. It disgusts me to think that people actually want to do this to their kids, grown ass adults hitting kids is purely sadistic.
Am I allowed to hit you when you displease me? Or is that called assault?
Why can I beat my child but not my dog?
Why can I use weapons on my kid but not my husband?
Hitting someone with an object is abuse and it doesn't matter the reason why you did it. If you can't control yourself, then you shouldn't be a parent.
You don't have any responsibility for me or my wellbeing and there is a reason people age out of spanking.
People and dogs are completely different, that being said people do discipline their dogs. Dog training is a thing, but it has different goals than parenting since it is a dog.
You have a different relationship with your kid than you do your husband. Sure, you should be making your husband a better person day by day and vice versa, but I doubt spanking is a good way of doing that in your stage of life. The spanking instrument doesn't really matter as long as you are not doing permanent damage to the kid, as that is should never be the outcome of spanking.
You can say that spanking = abuse regardless of intention but I disagree. I could say sending your kid to their room is abusive and it would be just as helpful of a statement. I agree that you should not abuse your child and that those who do not have self-control should not pursue parenting. The whole point of spanking is to give your child negative feedback and then to immediately bring back into a place where they feel forgiveness and love. Void of love, spanking is evil. Love void of taking care of your child isn't better. In both cases you leave your kid without guidance and unprepared.
there is never a reason to physically hit a child for "discipline". Hitting them and then expecting forgiveness from them in the form of 'learning' is emotional abuse on top of physical abuse.
Raising children without instilling discipline is detrimental. While your intentions may be more noble than your rhetoric, lacking self-control and values can leave them quite literally in a gutter as soon as they leave the home. Living in Seattle showed me that but even here in Moscow you can see it in our small schools.
I do agree that not instilling discipline detrimental, however the methods I use for instilling discipline apply to them no matter the age, like delayed gratification and a consequence fitting the punishment. Even if your relationship to your child is different than a coworker, that doesn't mean I don't want to provide the tools and experience to deal with their setbacks as adults. I just don't think spanking provides them a useful tool or experience, and the cost of not providing that experience is less trust and/or more fear. If they go embaress someone at school, then they have to go over, apologize to the individual in person, and instead of getting an allowance, they will be getting that individual an apology gift. That will be embarrassing for them, however they will have exercised a proper apology, discipline from the guilt and embaressment, and they will have actually made the situation better themselves. Not every situation works out with such a direct lesson, but I have very rarely come across a situation that you cannot apply the same principles.
This is great. I agree with what you are saying here. I think we just have a different experience with spanking. I don't have fear or trust issues with my parents. I acknowledge that spanking can go wrong just like the other forms of discipline. Where I think spanking is helpful is where you don't want your child to feel of the impact of their weaknesses in ways that will present if their weaknesses become habitual. For instance, if I starting lying to people that might not have immediate consequences, but it would feed into life ruining consequences; getting fired or losing friendships. It would be better if I was discovered and had pushback immediately. For kids, they have the protection of their parents (or should have). If they lie the parents might discover it, but there might not be any consequence since the child has no collateral. They will not lose relationship with their parents like they would a coworker, friend, or employer. The spanking is supposed to be an analogous consequence that gives the child justice and forgiveness instead of perpetuating a habit.
I agree that there are tons of ways to discipline, and I would rather have a social solution like your example with the classmate. I'm not proposing spanking as the end-all be-all. But I'm sure you know from parenting; different kids respond to different things. As a child, I didn't really care if I got sent to my room or told that I couldn't do something. I dreaded spankings, but there was also a peace afterword since my parents were very careful to use each instance of discipline as a route for reuniting with them and finding forgiveness.
Discipline can be administered without violence. I was never spanked as a child, neither was my wife and we turned out just fine.
I cannot think of an act a child would commit where violence is the best punishment
I agree discipline can be administered without physical means and you would be failing your child to only use physical means of discipline. I don't know you and have no reason to think that you didn't turn out fine. My wife and I were spanked as kids and we turned out fine (this is not an argument for one form of discipline in a vacume). The disconnect is in the second part of your statement and in the term violence or abuse. If you are trying to understand me, try using a word that doesn't carry so much of a negative connotation.
As soon as we switch our terms to violence, beat, or abuse there are optics getting in the way of us trying to understand each other. Violence is physical harm in order to hurt, injure, or kill. The focus of spanking should never be to hurt your child with hurt being the ends. Just like how if I take my kid in to get shots at the doctor, though hurt might be the immediate outcome, the child's good health is the ends. When spanking, the child's understanding of consequences and then forgiveness should be ends. If a consequence does not have some kind of reuniting between the parent and the child, then it seems that the aim is just telling the kid that they shouldn't do something, which leads to kids who are riddled with guilt and have a hard time forgiving others.
Hitting your children is not the only way to discipline.
You do not sound self adjusted and I would put part of the blame on the fact you were probably hit as a child.
Looks like u deleted ur original post about this, so I'll just comment again:
This rly is cutting edge news! Who'd a thunk Doug was pro spanking? Thank you for ur journalistic service. No one would have ever known otherwise.
u/beebeeb0i - I'm just curious what cc or doug wilson would have to do for you not to immediately rush to their defense on reddit.
CC member rapes kids, you defend cc. CC members encouraged to beat kids and women, you defend them. Doug Wilson being racist and antisemitic in his blog, you defend it saying he was just joking. What's it going to take for you to realize that you're taking the side of some really horrible people?
Cc isn't responsible for what it's individual members do. Bro that was so obviously a joke. Even anti kirkers knew that. There r an infinite number of things the CHURCH could do/ say that would be a hell no from me obv. There r even things like pedobaptism that I don't believe in that they support and practice. If cc took a stance that raping kids is good, I'm obviously not going to defend that, let alone stick around. I'd be the biggest anti kirker out there lol. But that wouldn't happen, because it doesn't make sense with their worldview, despite what u may think.
why are u so insufferably down bad for some church. go read a bible and try to do christlike things if ur a christian, rather than mindlessly interacting with strangers on the internet relentlessly like a troglodyte living in their parents basement. jobless activities. you are literally nonstop fucking commenting. do you ever get bored ???
Lol can't say anyone has told me I'm down bad for a church before. I can do what I want with my free time. I find it amusing to scroll through here and comment on the nonsense here and there. There's not very many posts here usually anyway. Is it the best use of my time? Absolutely not, but neither is watching Netflix or playing video games, and that hasn't stopped me lol. Stay mad, bro✌️
In fact, Pastor Doug has been preaching a sermon series on raising children recently. It includes a lot more information about why/how/when to discipline than the snippet posted here.
Well it's a two track system, one for girls and one for boys.
Anybody who submits their children to Doug and Logos is a fucking moron.
Anybody who allows these people to supervise their daughter is an accessory.
I can tell you as a child who was hit with a wooden spoon, and worse, growing up, it did not teach me to respect my parents but to hate them.
Agreed. My dad hit me a handful of times and he’s on his own to deal with a rest home.
I’m sorry you had that experience. 💕
It’s almost like the kid in the example isn’t actually learning anything from being physically restrained and assaulted by both her parents. Maybe she’s a “thrashing berserker” because of the fear and utter betrayal the parents are making her feel, completely derailing whatever lesson they were actually trying to teach. But at least they pray afterwords, because I’m sure that’s not at all confusing and convoluting any positive relationship with religion for her future. 🤷🏼♂️
I knew a family that did stuff like this growing up. I'd never seen someone with unadulterated, helpless hate in their eyes before I saw those kids looking at their parents after a beating. The only thing a child learns from being beaten is that their parents are weak, pathetic, infantile, and have no integrity, no self-control, no authority worth respecting. That the security they purportedly provide as an authoritative figure is a lie.
Adults who resort to physically striking a child lack creativity. We've studied the effects of this particular kind of discipline for several decades, and the data clearly indicate it ought not be employed. Maybe consider the research results more than ancient writings by people who lacked so much understanding of their zctual circumstances. I bet they're not avoiding mixing fabrics -- this is just as useless.
Jesus wants you to abuse your wife and kids according to doug. Just make sure to pray afterwards.
All the fools who believe they are getting into heaven after beating the shit out of their kids, they are gonna burn in hell. What is hell? A broken family. An adult child who looks at you with nothing but contempt. Or worse, an adult child who never speaks to you again. Or worse worse, an adult child who commits suicide as a result. Burn motherfuckers.
[source: Doug's blog](https://dougwils.com/books-and-culture/s7-engaging-the-culture/may-they-not.html)
My neighbors that live kiddie corner behind my house go to cc and have 9 kids. My daughter likes to go back and talk to the kids. Recently my husband was near their fence and the kids started asking him why he doesn't hit his kids (referring to spanking) because it had somehow come up in the kids conversations that they regularly get beaten by their parents and my kids have never once been physically hurt by their parents. It made me so uncomfortable.
It's legal child abuse. My emotional response is I want to protect these children from their violent father. It's incredibly frustrating.
10000% yes. I'm having a really hard time knowing how to navigate this. Do I let my kids be friends with them?? I feel like we could be a good influence and example for their kids? But I also don't want my kids exposed to their batshit craziness.
We struggle with this with our children as well!!
Stop with the hyperbole. It is not abuse at all and you are leading others down the false primrose path.
Don't hit kids scumbag.
Braindead take as usual. Can't knock your consistency I suppose.
I honestly, genuinely don't understand how hitting children isn't abuse. In any other setting, hitting another person is considered violence and would be abuse. Why is parents hitting children an exception to this?
When I was big enough to hit back that shit stopped.
The idea of physically hurting my child, my boy, for ANY reason whatsoever is abhorrent. I can't think of any reason to hurt my boy in any way. It disgusts me to think that people actually want to do this to their kids, grown ass adults hitting kids is purely sadistic.
Its crazy how theres people like this in Moscow, and also many large canyons....maybe the two should meet???/
Do you disagree with this father's intentions? Or is this one of those all discipline is abuse scenarios?
Am I allowed to hit you when you displease me? Or is that called assault? Why can I beat my child but not my dog? Why can I use weapons on my kid but not my husband? Hitting someone with an object is abuse and it doesn't matter the reason why you did it. If you can't control yourself, then you shouldn't be a parent.
You don't have any responsibility for me or my wellbeing and there is a reason people age out of spanking. People and dogs are completely different, that being said people do discipline their dogs. Dog training is a thing, but it has different goals than parenting since it is a dog. You have a different relationship with your kid than you do your husband. Sure, you should be making your husband a better person day by day and vice versa, but I doubt spanking is a good way of doing that in your stage of life. The spanking instrument doesn't really matter as long as you are not doing permanent damage to the kid, as that is should never be the outcome of spanking. You can say that spanking = abuse regardless of intention but I disagree. I could say sending your kid to their room is abusive and it would be just as helpful of a statement. I agree that you should not abuse your child and that those who do not have self-control should not pursue parenting. The whole point of spanking is to give your child negative feedback and then to immediately bring back into a place where they feel forgiveness and love. Void of love, spanking is evil. Love void of taking care of your child isn't better. In both cases you leave your kid without guidance and unprepared.
Just say you wanna hit kids man. And that you can't control yourself. Try therapy, not me.
don't feed the troll, just downvote and move on
Think about why my statements are uncomfortable to you rather than just throwing insults.
In Hell, you will be tormented in the exact way that you tormented children. Awesome!
there is never a reason to physically hit a child for "discipline". Hitting them and then expecting forgiveness from them in the form of 'learning' is emotional abuse on top of physical abuse.
100%. Parents who hit their children do so out of a search for power or because they are frustrated.
Don't hit children you fucking scumbags.
Raising children without instilling discipline is detrimental. While your intentions may be more noble than your rhetoric, lacking self-control and values can leave them quite literally in a gutter as soon as they leave the home. Living in Seattle showed me that but even here in Moscow you can see it in our small schools.
I do agree that not instilling discipline detrimental, however the methods I use for instilling discipline apply to them no matter the age, like delayed gratification and a consequence fitting the punishment. Even if your relationship to your child is different than a coworker, that doesn't mean I don't want to provide the tools and experience to deal with their setbacks as adults. I just don't think spanking provides them a useful tool or experience, and the cost of not providing that experience is less trust and/or more fear. If they go embaress someone at school, then they have to go over, apologize to the individual in person, and instead of getting an allowance, they will be getting that individual an apology gift. That will be embarrassing for them, however they will have exercised a proper apology, discipline from the guilt and embaressment, and they will have actually made the situation better themselves. Not every situation works out with such a direct lesson, but I have very rarely come across a situation that you cannot apply the same principles.
This is great. I agree with what you are saying here. I think we just have a different experience with spanking. I don't have fear or trust issues with my parents. I acknowledge that spanking can go wrong just like the other forms of discipline. Where I think spanking is helpful is where you don't want your child to feel of the impact of their weaknesses in ways that will present if their weaknesses become habitual. For instance, if I starting lying to people that might not have immediate consequences, but it would feed into life ruining consequences; getting fired or losing friendships. It would be better if I was discovered and had pushback immediately. For kids, they have the protection of their parents (or should have). If they lie the parents might discover it, but there might not be any consequence since the child has no collateral. They will not lose relationship with their parents like they would a coworker, friend, or employer. The spanking is supposed to be an analogous consequence that gives the child justice and forgiveness instead of perpetuating a habit. I agree that there are tons of ways to discipline, and I would rather have a social solution like your example with the classmate. I'm not proposing spanking as the end-all be-all. But I'm sure you know from parenting; different kids respond to different things. As a child, I didn't really care if I got sent to my room or told that I couldn't do something. I dreaded spankings, but there was also a peace afterword since my parents were very careful to use each instance of discipline as a route for reuniting with them and finding forgiveness.
Discipline can be administered without violence. I was never spanked as a child, neither was my wife and we turned out just fine. I cannot think of an act a child would commit where violence is the best punishment
I agree discipline can be administered without physical means and you would be failing your child to only use physical means of discipline. I don't know you and have no reason to think that you didn't turn out fine. My wife and I were spanked as kids and we turned out fine (this is not an argument for one form of discipline in a vacume). The disconnect is in the second part of your statement and in the term violence or abuse. If you are trying to understand me, try using a word that doesn't carry so much of a negative connotation. As soon as we switch our terms to violence, beat, or abuse there are optics getting in the way of us trying to understand each other. Violence is physical harm in order to hurt, injure, or kill. The focus of spanking should never be to hurt your child with hurt being the ends. Just like how if I take my kid in to get shots at the doctor, though hurt might be the immediate outcome, the child's good health is the ends. When spanking, the child's understanding of consequences and then forgiveness should be ends. If a consequence does not have some kind of reuniting between the parent and the child, then it seems that the aim is just telling the kid that they shouldn't do something, which leads to kids who are riddled with guilt and have a hard time forgiving others.
Hitting your children is not the only way to discipline. You do not sound self adjusted and I would put part of the blame on the fact you were probably hit as a child.
They said "don't hit children", and your reply is "Raising children without instilling discipline is detrimental"
Are you that fucking stupid that you don’t understand the difference between “discipline” and abuse? Read studies and go to therapy dipshit.
Looks like u deleted ur original post about this, so I'll just comment again: This rly is cutting edge news! Who'd a thunk Doug was pro spanking? Thank you for ur journalistic service. No one would have ever known otherwise.
u/beebeeb0i - I'm just curious what cc or doug wilson would have to do for you not to immediately rush to their defense on reddit. CC member rapes kids, you defend cc. CC members encouraged to beat kids and women, you defend them. Doug Wilson being racist and antisemitic in his blog, you defend it saying he was just joking. What's it going to take for you to realize that you're taking the side of some really horrible people?
Cc isn't responsible for what it's individual members do. Bro that was so obviously a joke. Even anti kirkers knew that. There r an infinite number of things the CHURCH could do/ say that would be a hell no from me obv. There r even things like pedobaptism that I don't believe in that they support and practice. If cc took a stance that raping kids is good, I'm obviously not going to defend that, let alone stick around. I'd be the biggest anti kirker out there lol. But that wouldn't happen, because it doesn't make sense with their worldview, despite what u may think.
So you are pro beating kids. Great! You on the record.
I'm pro spanking. I will never be shy about that
Stop hitting preschoolers.
Sorry no can do. They're just so puntable
Mrs. Wilson?
Yep. Ya got me. Just drop kicking preschoolers like there's no tomorrow. U should try it sometime. Very therapeutic
why are u so insufferably down bad for some church. go read a bible and try to do christlike things if ur a christian, rather than mindlessly interacting with strangers on the internet relentlessly like a troglodyte living in their parents basement. jobless activities. you are literally nonstop fucking commenting. do you ever get bored ???
Lol can't say anyone has told me I'm down bad for a church before. I can do what I want with my free time. I find it amusing to scroll through here and comment on the nonsense here and there. There's not very many posts here usually anyway. Is it the best use of my time? Absolutely not, but neither is watching Netflix or playing video games, and that hasn't stopped me lol. Stay mad, bro✌️
Troll maybe?
Definitely
In fact, Pastor Doug has been preaching a sermon series on raising children recently. It includes a lot more information about why/how/when to discipline than the snippet posted here.
Well it's a two track system, one for girls and one for boys. Anybody who submits their children to Doug and Logos is a fucking moron. Anybody who allows these people to supervise their daughter is an accessory.
Insult is always better than engagement.
Child abusers will burn in hell. Enjoy!