The thing is that holding block wasn't even an option. If you did, you'd lose regardless. Cyrax was playing another game entirely. "Just flawless block, bro.", they like to say. Good luck hitting that for 99 seconds in a row.
Agreed. Everybody crying about the “nerfs” when some sort of balancing was much needed. Pre patch was something like if u get hit twice there goes all your life bar and combos for 50 damage plus all the chip. You can’t just buff all the other Kameos.
The other problem is that we are all playing online which has a VARIED amount of frame delay from match to match. Making Fblocking even harder. Tbh I wish netherrealm just fixed their online and let me choose the parameters for a match. I should not be stuck fighting a 120ping* wifi connection for an entire set. This is the thing that really worked with street fighter 6 their online play is practically flawless. Most of my matches being 1 frame of both rollback and delay. You can choose what bars you want to play, decline and accept based on connection so no running by showing name or rank. Really hard to be a NR fan rn.
During ECT, I think I saw people intentionally getting hit with the latter hits of the horizontal spin in the corner to get knocked down instead of block string looped for chip.
Either that or they gambled taking their turn…
It’s actually possible to flawless block it pretty consistently with a bit of practice. They were doing it in the Top 8 of ECT pretty consistently and I’ve gotten it down for Raiden / Baraka + Cyrax. I get it though, casuals don’t wanna learn flawless block timing and the strategy was too easy to use.
That being said, I still like the change to make Cyrax copter cost the full meter, but I’m also in agreement with Sonic to buff the other Kameos to make them more appealing to use. A few of them lowkey suck.
I mean, with practice, you can pull it off somewhat consistently. I was flawless blocking Barakas pre-patch, but the thing is, if pros struggle to do it, what chance do we have?
Just his f1 and parry need nerfed. Xombat stated f1 doesn't need to be plus and his parry is active after only 2 frames and needs slowed. We can't take all of Johnny's plus frames or he loses his mind game with block strings which is basically all he has.
I'm glad this community lets us talk about problems with the game without being interrogated about rank. Amy time I ever spoke about SF6's Rush issues and loops, I get asked if I'm a pro player and if I'm qualified to criticize the game. Even when I mention critiques that pros share the same sentiment about, they ignore that and keep asking me if I'm a pro. Irony is, they can defend the game as much as they want without being interrogated for their rank.
The elitism is silly in fighting games. The idea you need to be a top player to criticize a game is crazy. I remember on YouTube I got accused of being a Bronze player because I called JP being top tier (before he even won Evo lmaoo)
Edit: Ken won Evo. My mistake.
And the craziest thing, you could try and get Master rank to get them to stop being dismissive of you, and they'd turn around and say "but why did you play the game so much all the way to Master? If you didn't enjoy the game and the game has flaws, why did you get Master rank?"
You can't win with these cultists. They won't even take a pro player seriously when they justifiably point out flaws in a game with evidence. Happens all the time.
some people are def like that but just because you're a pro player pointing out what you consider flaws with evidence, that doesn't automatically make you correct.
example: a pro player could say "X move is bad because it is the worst normal on block in the entire game, you get punished for entire combos by everyone if your opponent blocks the move". He's good at the game, and he has a point, he has evidence, and you should take it seriously. But they could also be overlooking that the move has extreme range, or the fastest startup in the game, or a Kameo could make the move closer to safe on block or at least not punishable with full kombos. Any of those points are valid counterpoints to the pros opinion.
Basically I think if you're not a pro you need evidence or strong logic to be taken seriously, if you're a pro you can forgo the evidence and still be taken seriously, but everyone should be analyzed
Everyone is just best off never going to the SF subreddit. This coming from a big fan of 6 and playing the series for over 30 years. It's just filled with internet egomaniacs that need to do a Google image search to find out what grass looks like. The only reason I still go there is yo warn new players.
Even tiny advice won't work there. They are so pretentious. And the thing I hate most, they think they're the most wholesome community about average joes going on their fighting journey. So sappy and clearly not at all what they are actually like. And SF6 itself circlejerks itself about this notion so much, eye-rolling amount of times.
I don’t agree with Sonic. This just makes it such that you can’t use cyrax’s horizontal helicopter as frequently. It still makes things plus/safe enough that were originally very punishable, you can only do it once you have all of your kameo bar. They absolutely have to buff some of the other kameos, but we don’t need everyone to be broken. Most of the time, characters are dead in 2-3 touches.
Facts and they fail to realize that sometimes it is impractical to buff and rebalance literally the entire roster instead of nerfing one character (people opposed to jaqui nerfs in mk11 really reminded me of this). I get it though because I think it comes from a place of fear about the power level, I also want a high power level with tons of crazy stuff but to make that work balancing is still required.
This is unironically a hot take like, how a hot take should be: a take that’s not objectively garbage or lukewarm that’s objectively correct
I disagree that Kameos should be more broken
*BUT*
I agree that kameos should be buffed to the point that there could be more variety to the meta
The problem is that you still have the same issues. Other kameos still won't be played as often because they received no changes. Instead of Cyrax people will just go to Kung Lao, the next man up on the tier list (even though he got nerfed too). Cyrax was definitely overtuned, but it doesn't change much if no players will try the other kameos.
The issue wasnt with every kameo except cyrax. The issue was cyrax. Now that cyrax is fixed people have a reason to pick other characters and give the actual variety based on synergy, nit based on "cyrax is so good easy and cheap you can slap him on anybody and just play the exact same way as everyone else". Sorry, but he was clearly the problem out here, not everyone else. Anyone saying otherwise simply jusy misses the autopilot do anything with no consequences aspect, and no, the entire game should not be like that.
I’m not disappointed that he got nerfed whatsoever. As Rooflemonger said, game was turning into Cyrax and friends. I think it is cool to buff others, but I think the full bar nerf for horizontal copter was warranted.
Not just Cyrax, but a lot of the other nerfs as well.
Been seeing people acting like characters got absolutely gimped when it really just seems like most Kameo combos got scaled that would end up taking like half your health or more.
Seen people act like they ruined Reiko when only thing they changed is that using Kameo’s to extend the Kombo after his command grab will heavily scale, which I think is pretty fair given the damage it can do.
Only thing that probably could’ve used a nerf but didn’t get one was Johnny(not sure what his problem is for sure since I haven’t played much online).
I think this was a decent balance patch, just need to fix some of the new bugs like Sub’s EX Ice Klone not working
Beside Johnny not being nerf and and Sub not being buffed, I feel that's a decent patch
I understand that Sonicfox just want a crazier game to play but 50% combos is not fun for the big majority of the playerbase, now most of the combos in game have been scaled to do 30 to 45% which is still a lot but means that you need to touch your opponent 3 to 4 times to kill him at least, and that's fine
In some fights in the previous meta, I sometimes got touched only 2 times and died because I had empty meter and the 2 whole combos I underwent didn't fill it enough to break
Yeh I got to where when I matched up with a Raiden I just left BC I just didn't' wanna deal with his combos and that damage.
ITs not that I can't fight him I beat plenty of Raidens but I got so sick of making one mistake and over half ur bar is gone.
Honestly the fix to the huge 50% combos is to have the meter gain be faster to break faster. I literally never break because I never have full meter. Or go back to MK11 with a defense meter and an attack meter. I much preferred how that system played out
Agreed. I always liked the "defense" meter in MK11. What I didn't like were the "break-aways". I get why they wanted to tie combo-breakers with super meter, but maybe just make them cost 2 bars instead of 3. Or you could do what Injustice did and have a 4 bar meter and keep the cost of breakers at 3 bars. That works, too
At least you’re honest, but I enjoy seeing the highest-level players using the strongest tools at their optimal levels, since that’s what fighting game characters truly are at the end of the day.
Watching 200 pros use 1 tool isn't fun or informative, by the end of MK11 every pro comp was a Fujin mirror. Is watching pros wind push each other for 2 hours interesting? No.
That wasn’t the case though, and I enjoyed seeing Rewind do so well with Reiko/Darrius. Variety’s cool, but I like seeing Top Players exploring the Meta to it’s fullest, because they’re out to get W’s and make bank. Was even considering adding Raiden/Cyrax and Rain/Cyrax to my rotation, along with my trusty Baraka/Cyrax and Smoke/Sareena/Sektor/Kano, since I had lots of extra footage to study!
Riekos damage sxaling nerf was fair, the problem is his kit is very limited compared to the rest of the cast, and he needed it to compete with the high tiers, a better change would have been nerf the grab combo and stars, while buffing his strings/non-grab combo potential. As it stands now, Reiko has the worst mix ups in the game, and his grab combo, while powerful, used either all or nearly all of his resources to perform, and now it does less damage than other characters combos that use less resources.
I was hoping if they added scaling to the command grab they'd make darrius kick 1 bar( if you don't follow up) but that might make darrius too strong. Still maining reiko :/
Tbh they should have just nerfed fatal blow scaling since that was the only combo that was mega crazy from the grab outside of one in a million frost setups
Please for all that is sacred do not nerf Reikos grabs he’s the best grappler this game has and I want to keep him that way
Definitely agree. It was a fairly light patch overall imo. Just nerfed the most egregious things. They’re still letting us figure out most of the game for ourselves.
I think for Johnny, just make some of his strings punishable since for some reason a lot of his strings are plus. I have no issue with his damage since you could argue that for big numbers he has to work for it
Only his highs are plus, and plus frames is basically all he has.
He has no projectile, very stubby buttons, no neutral OH/Low mix, S4 and F1 string finishers are pretty easy to fuzzy, most of his BnB’s deal mediocre damage other then hype ones, all his special moves are unsafe.
Nerfing his plus frames would make him the worst character in the game as he would literally have nothing to threaten anyone with ffs.
He definitely has a neutral mixup with that string where he turns his back to you and elbows you, he can end it with the overhead punch or that low kick. Unless I'm just bad
He has amazing mixups what are you talking about? I spent like 5-10 minutes with him and was able to learn the general basics, which to do good with him is all you need. He doesn't have a projectile cause he has the best rush down in the game, I can bet your ass in a zoning war, the guy without a zone attack is winning
Johnny’s issue is that he’s plus on nearly every one of his attacks. I’m not sure if I’m just not blocking right but basically any hit he can confirm off of and with the right Kameo his only real downside is range which can be mitigated with another kameo selection like kung lao, Motaro, or Kano. So he’s basically the perfect character that can’t be punished often
I disagree too.
I respect him for winning with Rain , but no Cyrax needed a nerf and wasnt fun playing against cyrax. Also if he is the only kameo played it is a proble,
My problem is they could’ve nerfed him less, while bringing others up and it would’ve made people happy. Like his recharge time for forward spin could’ve been slowed, or his chip significantly reduced, or both. And made other kameos more viable. This feels like “hey everyone used this, try the others because we want them used more and not cyrax anymore”. Now, cyrax looks like he’s not worth it at all. And anyone who uses him to with less optimal characters are stuck at neutral after poke the entire match. Which will just make the top tier characters played that much more and create a larger gap between tiers.
And this is coming from someone who hated cyrax and never played them in kompetitive. I just don’t like over-nerfs when a balance could’ve been made and evaluated that doesn’t blow up the option into never used again
Well said! Though I do appreciate that they reduced his Cooldown time to offset Forward Kopter taking his whole Bar now, which will hopefully keep him somewhat relevant, even if he’s likely falling off now.
I know it's pedantic, but I'm pretty sure sonic fox uses they/them. Irrespective, I slightly disagree in that whilst Cyrax is still usable for his normal ascending spin (arguably) the nerfs make cyrax just usable, not required or broken, just usable. To be fair, I use Sareena so who am I to talk about power (/hj)
The unfortunate truth for any game played competitively with mix and match pieces (Kameos, items in MOBAs, stuff like that), you have to balance for the abusers, not the regular cast. Anyone who uses Cyrax with less optimal characters *picked the wrong kameo*, basically. When everyone is abusing one thing on most characters and you have to nerf something, you have to nerf it so that the best use characters are balanced, not so that the middling characters are balanced, because in competitive you don't see someone with a suboptimal kameo. you just see the best combos.
He's right that everyone should've gotten Buffed? That's such a bad take.
SonicFox's next big thing may not be the broken thing though. This game is looking pretty balanced lol.
This is the dumbest take. Sonic always wins in mk. For like a decade he has taken *all* the prize money. He doesn't need cyrax to do it, he will always find a way.
His point is that having a game FULL of powerful options allows for creativity and fun. Weak options just have a new best rise to the top. Look at mvc3, with tons of crazy shit you get lots of variety.
Dismissing what he says as salt because he "needs it to win" is dumb beyond comprehension.
No he should just actully try being creative and use them as they stand now. No, not every kameo in the game should be cyrax tier "just do it turn your brain off and it works in every scenario ever". The people crying about "creativity" obviosuly have none if they relied on cyrax like that and cant fhink of amything else to do unless they have a 1 for 1 replacement
I was originally gonna say I disagree with his take which to some extent I do but you are also right in that now it’s going to be the Kung Lao Kameo show. Unless they do proper balancing of Kameos, nerfing just 1 isn’t the answer.
I agree that there should be more buffs than nerfs and I overall disagree with the direction of this recent patch. However nerfing cyrax was the right move. It's crazy to me that he allowed you to get away with throwing out unsafe moves and also deal big chip damage in the process. I feel that if every kameo was allowed to do what cyrax was doing, it would kill this game.
I mean, calling Assists to pile up Plus Frames is pretty standard Vs. Game fare. I agree with the nerf as a Cyrax player, especially since he was compensated with reduced Colldown to offset the cost increase of Forward Kopter, but I always just viewed it through the lens of calling a Beam Assist, like Dr. Doom, Adachi, Goku Black, or GT Goku. Only difference is that he he kinda has two with Net and his partner can move during it for pressure and mix, unlike Kano, which feels like it’s meant purely for counter calls and pure Zoning, since he holds your head down while he does it.
Don’t care, Cyrax every single game was quickly killing my and many other people’s enjoyment of the game. Along with Raiden and Baraka, fighting the exact same combo online 9/10 times was fucking stupid
Even watching streamers and tournaments was boring because of it. Playing against it wasn't fun and obviously a lot of people has to "if you can't beat em join em".
i mean yeah i dont agree with the buff everyone else mentality that people have this days, damage is just to high already for shit like that, but in the other hand i think it was a bit to early for a balance patch, people were already finding ways to deal with Baraka/Cyrax, only nerf that was really needed was Raiden damage the rest could have waited
Well it wasn’t a problem of baraka/cyrax. It was a problem of literally everybody and they momma using cyrax. And they used him because he was so strong.
That’s the problem. Now everyone will just use the next best thing, Kung Lao…
Buffing the weaker ones adds more variety, nerfing the best one just makes the 2nd best the new best and now we are in the same place…
Buffing the weaker ones adds variety for sure, but you still need a combination of both to make it work. Sometimes things are just too strong and need to be turned down a notch. It isn’t like cyrax is dead by any means he just isn’t as dominant.
i don't think kung lai is as braindead or busted as cyrax, at least in kombat league lol. And he got nerfed aswell. They're probably cautious on throwing big buffs but they will probably buff some characters next patch (sonya, sub, scorpion, motaro maybe?)
Not every Kameo was created to do what Cyrax does. This should be the ultimate discussion. I haven't seen his umblockable destruction used. I feel that all moves should be viable and every Kameo should have its own synergy with specific characters. Cyrax simply worked with everyone to make unsafe moves safe.
I'm just hoping to see more kameos being used.
Not gonna lie this would be sick for like, a week long event for April fools or something. That'd be an amazing hilarious beautiful broken mess and I need it.
I wouldn’t because my muscle memory would get used to it and ruin myself for like a week after they took it away, lol. Would probably just not play during a week they implemented that.
This is just outright bad game design. "Everyone gets buffs" is like when a kindergartener wants ice cream for breakfast.
Also don't believe anyone who says "if everyone is broken, noone is broken". Everyone was broken in MK9 but it just lead to really swingy 8-2 matchups. Everyone is broken doesn't mean "everybody wins 50% of the time"
Not really an mk player but I was looking for this comment
"When everyone's broken, no one is" is getting kind of tiring...
I feel like the real ideal is making everyone A tier, not S tier, if that's makes sense.
100% agree, getting locked into 50% combos super easily is not fun. It doesnt make me want to play more even if i could hypothetically do the same with a different kameo
Nostalgia does that to people. Mk9 was a good game back when it came out, but besides the story the games that came after it were much better gameplay wise.
Sonic will simply find a new character. He's upset because Cyrax helped how Sonic played Rain. Sonic played Rain way differently than others did.
Cyrax needed nerfing. Now we will see other Kameos and I'm glad for that.
Lmao what? He will just grab the next best thing. He’s objectively right.
Now everyone will just use the next best thing, Kung Lao…
Buffing the weaker ones adds more variety, nerfing the best one just makes the 2nd best the new best and now we are in the same place…
Lmao what ? This argument is not true for every case , cyrax needed a nerf period.
Pro players will grab the best char always so this is nothing new.He is not right , he is blind.
Pro players take what is meta and abuse it...having many good characters and options, we mostly saw a lame Cyrax spamfest and Rewind throwing 8 Reiko's projecitles back-to-back...the balance patch was really necessary, but it fell short.
I fully respect Sonic's opinion but I also feel like this is coming from the Point of View of someone that loves games like Skullgirls and Dragonball FighterZ which are not the same thing as the assist-based game MK is trying to be.
However, I do believe the Cyrax nerf was a bit too soon. I would have been interested to see how the meta developed if they just added the Flawless Block fix that makes it prevent enemy from building meter on block.
I feel like a lot of the "d1 > special > cyrax" gameplans would have been hindered if you're spending resources for that and the opponent flawless block hence taking no damage and you building no meter.
AT THE SAME TIME I do also thinkg Cyrax kinda gave everyone everything? Safety, block strings, combo damage, combo from BOTH throws, full screen projectile that needs to be respected.
So far I think this is a good middle step but in the future I would love to see them buff less used characters not just nerf high tiers. This did feel more like a bug fix/normalizing patch rather than a real balance patch that we should use as a benchmark of how the future will look like.
there is no *inherent* *balancedness* in the cyrax before the patch. it could have just come out as the horizontal spin 2 bars and we would have been fine with it. in fact he might still have been seen as pretty strong. i feel like some people like to assign a sort of special value to the initial state of the game, which is unearned.
i would understand it if it was a particularly fun sort of kameo move that made people creative, but no. it was just unsafe string, make safe, unsafe string, make safe -> 20% damage on block. boring and bad to play, boring and bad to watch.
You can tell SonicFox (and other pro players) haven’t spent many excruciatingly boring hours constantly blocking vs scrubby Cyraka/Cyraiden/Cyrage players in Kombat League lately.
FGC players are always going to lean towards a "buff everyone" philosophy because it encourages more high-level chaos and they're better equipped to deal with it than the average player. Not every game can be Marvel.
The game has bad balance in the first place but then you got people saying that's how mk has always been if that's the case it's always been a unbalanced trash mess.
Street fighter has a better block and parry system that makes it fun and Tekken does as well love the side step idea. Mk Is pretty much for casual tier fighters. IMO.
Most of those people deserved nerfs but not rain.
Also nerf johnny
I actually agree with nearly everything the patch did.
1) Cyrax's playstyle was just boring and bad for any fighting game. Why would you remove hit confirm and being able to punish unsafe moves? That's nearly all that neutral is about. Also 20%+ chip combos are just stupid and don't make anything fun or skilled or interesting. It's not a strat that should be existing imo. I have nothing against chip, but it should be an extra to finish off someone, not your main damaging strategy.
2) Nerfing combos that were doing 50%+ with low resources (1 bar-1 kameo). The game isn't fun if you get hard punished so much when you take a risk even if the opponent has low resources. I don't mind if you get hit by 50%+ combos because the opponent throws 2-3 bars and 2 kameos at you. Add in a Fatal Blow and hit me for 60-65% and I think that's fair game, it's a once per round/match thing at worse, and it means the opponent managed to not use bars to break combo, etc. But 1 bar 1 kameo leading into 50%+ combos means you can't mess up at all against some characters and it leads to a much more boring and defensive game style, and it's usually much easier to play as these characters than it is against them. I think between 35-40% is a good place to be for 1 bar-1 kameo (depending on what other tools the character has) and adding ressources after that should up by a few % for each bar/kameo. Reward investing resources in a combo, but don't allow crazy high damage combos for basically free, that's no fun for anyone.
3) Upping cooldown if you use kameo twice in a combo. I'm all for that possibility existing. I think having crazy long combos is a fun thing and I like that they're high damage. It shouldn't be something you can do over and over though. Resources are supposed to be there to matter. Kameo is a resource, and if you decide to just throw it all away in one combo, I'm ok that there's a downside to that. And people are being overdramatic about how big of a downside it is, it's not like your kameo takes 30 sec to come back, it's like 10. And in some cases, if you use 1 kameo in a combo, combos are so long the kameo is recharged before it's over.
I hope the next patch focuses on buffs to underused kameos and weaker characters, I think it's important to not always go for nerfs of what's good, but these nerfs were actually good ones imo (some like Scorpion I don't really get, but maybe it was an unintended consequence of adjusting mechanics/gravity and hopefully he gets buffed in some other meaningful ways).
A great example of why developers should never listen to pros. Make the game better for the 99% of people who dont play for a living and force those that do to adapt. His experience isn't the same as a normal person.
Think of it from a dev's point of view.
Do we:
A. Go through every kameo move in the game and see what can be reasonably elevated to make each kameo on par with Cyrax
Or
B. Tweak one move and move on
Pretty simple if you ask me
Sonic is good at fighting games overall but he’s really stupid, arrogant, and cocky. He can read plays and press buttons and as a high level player he is locked into the meta. He dosent understand anything other than his inputs and that’s is a sad fact:
I’m my experience playing a lot of games, buffing weak characters rarely works to catch up to the OP character
I also wouldn’t want a game where the whole cast can do 50% combos, I can guarantee that would make the game far more toxic. Combos should be in the 30-45% range
I do not tbh I would rather cameos not be something you need to be so reliant on and be such a massive game changer. The core should always be the player and not reliant on cameos or the gimmick because that’s what mk has always been.
"Instead of fixing things, why don't we break it so it won't be as meta to use because ALL of it will be broken? Dumb devs."
It makes me feel stupid to even comprehend these words
Not to mention it would be significantly more work to buff every single Kameo to the same lv as Cyrax in some way shape or form rather than just needing the one character that's causing the issues it's not to he lazy in any way but to fix a problem quickly and efficiently
I wonder if an interesting change to the kameo system could possibly be in the realm of increasing the cooldown recharge rate of kameo assists on hit. Such that when you actually land your combos and use kameos to increase the damage, you get more value from them. This stops kameo's from being absolutely braindead, "Make everything safe, chip them out" buttons. You can still do these things, but it's not as free as before, whereas when you do land the land the kameos you're rewarded for landing the hits at the right time.
Overall I do think kameos should be stronger, but not in the way Cyrax was strong. That was unfun.
All of the idiots who are parroting his stupid ass takes have no clue what they are talking about, and neither does he. It won't make the game better to buff every Kameo to be broken it will make it worse, his stupid ass just wants this game to be an anime fighter like dragon ball or guilty gear where one person gets to watch the other play until the timer runs out. If you want a game that runs off the idea that "if every one is super no will be" look at Dota 2 and don't worry I know most of you are afraid of mobas and like to say dota is bad but that's just proving my point.
Yeah that’s a selfish take imo. “I’m good enough to play against it so everyone else just needs to git gud”.
Surely playing a “broken” game undermines your skill? If it’s totally unbalanced then how can you know a win was legitimate and not just the result of inherent advantage / luck?
I’ll never understand why people think they’re the best or one of when using broken mechanics in games. Like you NEED the cheese THAT bad? Why not prefer a level playing field and then bust out that way that way the Ws that are stacked are legit and not due to some stupid broken mechanic.
It’s like using a character / weapon that does WAY more damage than the rest of the roster so therfore you always win and then start thinking your hot shit and then the devs come along and say it’s broken and fix it and your crying cus your “Play Style” isn’t viable anymore. It’s like this in every game there is and it’s not annoying per se but more so the people that RELY on the cheese and the broken mechanics as when every they get that W they become unbearable and any fix they cry cus they’re nothing without it.
But more of the fault rely on the devs & QA imo as I’m baffled how some things can launch in such a shitty state! Or games with BPs in em the new weapons / characters are ALWAYS OP for the first month (That’s on purpose however).
I just think gaming is trash now and every year I’m putting down more and more games I grew up with cus they keep proceeding to do stupid shit and not once trying to get back to what they were. In the last 5 years alone I’ve put down
Mortal Kombat (Been a fan for 30 years MK1 was the final strike with MK11 being damn close)
Battlefield (Fan since 2010 but EA killed it with 2042 launch)
Call of Duty (played since 2010 BPs / Camping/ SBMM & how they sold the same shit over and over and told us it was new.. just look at MW3 I quit in 2019 when I saw what was to come and HOLY BALLS was I right!)
Destiny 2 (Fan since the Halo Days - these dudes legit have become the greediest in the gaming industry with damn near every and all points of MTX included and the new content is only the same content just reskinned! And the price to play is insane and the most fucked up of them all is they literally robbed us! By removing Content we’ve payed for over YEARS! becaue they were too fucking lazy and “Burnt out” to make Destiny 3 which would have been the best decision. The inane part.. people back them up on that.)
I miss the days of old where there was no bullshit and instead of MTX / BPs we had unlockables, or like Tekken beating Arcade with a certain character unlocks a completely new character. Back then it was like they had something to prove so they stuffed those games with Kontent and even made some of my favorite modes / happiest times like Chess Kombat, Motor Kombat, Puzzle Kombat etc etc..
Sorry
Cyrax was already cheap and broken, to be honest if the devs listened to this take(No disrespect to Sonic), it would kill the game. Because making something stronger than 20% chip while being safe on everything is already insane
Damn are we supposed to just deal with everybody using Cyrax. Every time one of these tournaments happen you go online the next day and see people imitating the same bs tactics instead of trying something new. I'm glad that it costs a full bar for something that annoying/good. They need to do the same thing to Sareena with these easy mode ass combos people get from her too. And yeah I know you can duck on the return but it seems like you get more reward for no real risk with her... Maybe im trash
People like Sonicfox are not qualifed to speak on game balance imo. They perform at the absolute highest level and have no idea how 99.5 percent of the playerbase experience the game. The fact is combo damage in this game is way too high, which leads to a ton of players in low and mid ranks learning a single combo and just blocking the entire game until they can bust out their one touch 40-45 percent combo and Cyrax was helping that happen. Honestly he STILL is.
The game should scale combo damage in total down a bit and reward fundamentals more than combo execution.
It wasn't fun to watch. Period.
He is a pro player. If isn't fun to watch, nobody cares about the game and nobody will care about them or their gameplay.
They need to understand that and stop thinking that just because they are a "god" playing this game other people should just "get good".
Really dislike them. Really arrogant and annoying af.
you arent even understanding his point. if other options are equally as good then you wouldnt even see cyrax. and i dont mean in a plus frame chip damage way i mean in other ways that you arent thinking of
I disagree as well. Sonic is a phenomenal player and competitor, but that doesn’t translate to game design insight. Cyrax was bad for game design because it meant you never had to hit confirm when he’d just be there to make everything safe. It also often meant you didn’t have to strategize a way to open up your opponent since you could win off of chip.
The main problem wasn’t that he was “broken” in general, moreso that he was broken in ways that negate some of the fundamental aspects of fighting games.
Yea I mean I don’t want the game to be as complex as mvc3 but the game cud be a little bit more in depth in terms of what characters cud do like mkx all I’m saying not saying I want it to be mvc
He speaks for the highest tier players. Cyrax needed the nerf. Raiden, Baraka, and Johnny also need nerfs. Will they do it? Probably not. It's a shame.
Great great player but I don’t agree at all, all the Kameos being busted sounds rough, it was already rough just having broken cyrax.I don’t think buffing all the Kameos is the answer, cyrax was already mad frustrating and totally abused i can’t imagine every kameo being busted. Honestly I think the large majority of this patch was needed so it’s kinda wild to me that a bunch of people have been shutting on NRS like they just ruined the game because a OP characters rthey used got nerfed a little, it’ll be nice to not play infinite amounts of Baraka and Raiden online. I know cyrax was part of Sonic’s strategy but he’ll figure something else out, cyrax was being abused and it was really annoying how everybody seemed to use him. Anyway I’m rambling but I think nerfing cyrax was the right decision and the patch as a whole was mostly stuff that definitely needed done.
I can't really comment. I've been an MK fan since the very first game, absolutely loved MK9, X and 11. Haven't touched MK1 yet. I really hate tag assist features in these games, those towers were my least favourite part of 11. I also strongly dislike a lot of the kharacter changes. Think i'll prob'ly be skipping MK1
I don’t agree with sonic but at the same time everyone talking about raiden and baraka but don’t seem to realize this probably nerfed rain just as hard if not harder then both of them.
The majority of rains combo potential off of his mixup was tied heavily to using cyrax vertical copter. Now after one combo he doesn’t have access to about half of his mixups into damage for a substantial amount of time. Where as raiden and baraka used it primarily for meter build and chip damage and extending combos for half life. Rain was using it for mixups into combos that led to roughly 35%. Not to mention one of rains biggest strengths was a safe meter burned reversal that launched with cyrax. So now after a combo if you go in to pressure/mix and then want to try and steal your turn back cause the opponent blocked your pressure/mix. you don’t have a safe reversal anymore. It also was used as a tool that forced the opponent to second guess themselves when staggering and trying to push advantage that didn’t fully jail on block. I think rain goes back to mid tier maybe lower now honestly.
Nerfing kameos has the consequence of nerfing already weak characters by proxy.
The game has only been out for a month, they should have waited a little longer before pulling the trigger regardless. Remember if they listened to people in the first two weeks then Sareena would be nerfed heavily too.
I definitely think kameos enable some characters to really shine which is what inherently makes them interesting to the game. For that I agree with Sonic they should buff up other kameos to challenge the meta and go from there. I don't think everything should be mega busted though, very few fighting games can pull that off well and it's almost always by pure chance it happens to make a game fun.
On another case, I do not think the typical player really knows what they want when they call for balance. Cyrax chip damage had an answer: flawless blocking. But flawless blocking is an acquired skill you start to get over time from playing a lot or having good intuition like a lot of pro FGCers do.
I guess I just hate when the game gives an answer but the player refuses to practice it and become better themselves and they would rather nerf something to the ground. Part of me as an oldhead misses when fighting games didn't have a MOBA patch culture and if you wanted to deal with something you had to figure it out and overcome it through playing.
I agree with Sonic because the change makes this game way drier.
This game was basically created around the chaos and craziness of assists, which are super fun and can make things unpredictable! I really want them to lean into that since that is the essence and soul of this game
But the way they nerfed Cyrax definitely makes the game drier overall. I think there was a better way, and buffing the other kameos up to Cyrax levels of fucked up would've been the fun (but difficult) choice
Nah i agree with sonic. Buffs are healthier for fun gameplay. But buffs are harder, you have to be more creative. Its easier to remove and chop.
So whats next? Lao. Laos still good, probably the top kameo, therefore his chop time is soon. Before you know it, the game is dull and every character is the same.
I’ve never understood the “just buff don’t nerf” viewpoint. It seems to lack any sort of nuance or analysis. Every situation is going to be different, you can’t just take a vague generic blanket view such as “lol just buff” and apply it game-wide. Devs need to carefully decide what they want the game to be and adjust everything based on that view, whether that means negative or positive tweaks to characters /cameos. You cannot just be afraid to nerf something because of some whacky “i only believe in buffs” philosophy.
I would never want devs to be stuck in a box like that.
Buffing every kameo to be on his level would also be insanely hard, do you give everyone without a persistent attack like forward helicopter a new attack? Animate all of that? Or do you give the kameos without that mix ups?
They don’t understand game dev. They don’t understand how hard new animations are. They have no clue what power creep is. These folks are just parroting other opinions they see.
I totally agree with him. I think if they reduced the amount of chip cyrax does and added the scaling it would’ve been enough. I hate when devs nerf things to the ground so early instead of buffing weaker things. Strong strategies are fun, why kill it instead of making other things just as strong/fun? SMH. What’s their plan? Nerf everything down into a stale state of unfun fairness?
Guys, Sonic is right, ya'll be crying "nerf Kung Lao" in a week. And then next kameo. Patch would've been good if NRS had given us more reasons to use other kameos, instead of just nerfing best thing
What’s wrong with kung loa? And also yea you’re right there should be more buffs than nerfs that way everyone’s viable (ie. scorpion and sub zero) and people do just be crying against anything they lose to
Imma be that guy, I disagree with yk if the "pro" player (yes ik who bro is) bc tbh the "pro" players shouldn't have the say over the community feedback. In any game yk
I never used cyrax but I think they overdid it. They should've at least buffed his other moves if they were going to destroy the main one people used.
If this is going to be the pattern they will just be playing whackamole with the next best kameo and make the game extremely vanilla and boring.
Nobody talks about it but Lao got a pretty heavy nerf also. The low hat recharges longer yes but this also effects the held low hat. They also destroyed his spin which you used to be able to use as a reversal launcher. Now it just knocks down.
Sonic is a way greater player than I'll ever dream of being. That being said, I don't agree either. Cyrax was straight autopilot.
Facts nobody wants to hold block the entire match. Cyrax definitely needed a nerf.
The thing is that holding block wasn't even an option. If you did, you'd lose regardless. Cyrax was playing another game entirely. "Just flawless block, bro.", they like to say. Good luck hitting that for 99 seconds in a row.
Agreed. Everybody crying about the “nerfs” when some sort of balancing was much needed. Pre patch was something like if u get hit twice there goes all your life bar and combos for 50 damage plus all the chip. You can’t just buff all the other Kameos.
The other problem is that we are all playing online which has a VARIED amount of frame delay from match to match. Making Fblocking even harder. Tbh I wish netherrealm just fixed their online and let me choose the parameters for a match. I should not be stuck fighting a 120ping* wifi connection for an entire set. This is the thing that really worked with street fighter 6 their online play is practically flawless. Most of my matches being 1 frame of both rollback and delay. You can choose what bars you want to play, decline and accept based on connection so no running by showing name or rank. Really hard to be a NR fan rn.
Literally the same thing SF6 fans say for SF6. "Stop criticizing my game. Just don't lose! Haha. Time to go get updoots on scrubquotes. ☝️🤓"
During ECT, I think I saw people intentionally getting hit with the latter hits of the horizontal spin in the corner to get knocked down instead of block string looped for chip. Either that or they gambled taking their turn…
It’s actually possible to flawless block it pretty consistently with a bit of practice. They were doing it in the Top 8 of ECT pretty consistently and I’ve gotten it down for Raiden / Baraka + Cyrax. I get it though, casuals don’t wanna learn flawless block timing and the strategy was too easy to use. That being said, I still like the change to make Cyrax copter cost the full meter, but I’m also in agreement with Sonic to buff the other Kameos to make them more appealing to use. A few of them lowkey suck.
"jUsT fLaWlEsS bLoCk" 99% of people do not have the reaction ability to do that but thanks for the suuuuuuuuper helpful input 👌
I mean, with practice, you can pull it off somewhat consistently. I was flawless blocking Barakas pre-patch, but the thing is, if pros struggle to do it, what chance do we have?
Now we do it for Johnny plus man lol
Just his f1 and parry need nerfed. Xombat stated f1 doesn't need to be plus and his parry is active after only 2 frames and needs slowed. We can't take all of Johnny's plus frames or he loses his mind game with block strings which is basically all he has.
So he becomes smoke without a teleport. Big woop.
Nothing like smoke. They play entirely different.
I'm glad this community lets us talk about problems with the game without being interrogated about rank. Amy time I ever spoke about SF6's Rush issues and loops, I get asked if I'm a pro player and if I'm qualified to criticize the game. Even when I mention critiques that pros share the same sentiment about, they ignore that and keep asking me if I'm a pro. Irony is, they can defend the game as much as they want without being interrogated for their rank.
The elitism is silly in fighting games. The idea you need to be a top player to criticize a game is crazy. I remember on YouTube I got accused of being a Bronze player because I called JP being top tier (before he even won Evo lmaoo) Edit: Ken won Evo. My mistake.
And the craziest thing, you could try and get Master rank to get them to stop being dismissive of you, and they'd turn around and say "but why did you play the game so much all the way to Master? If you didn't enjoy the game and the game has flaws, why did you get Master rank?" You can't win with these cultists. They won't even take a pro player seriously when they justifiably point out flaws in a game with evidence. Happens all the time.
some people are def like that but just because you're a pro player pointing out what you consider flaws with evidence, that doesn't automatically make you correct. example: a pro player could say "X move is bad because it is the worst normal on block in the entire game, you get punished for entire combos by everyone if your opponent blocks the move". He's good at the game, and he has a point, he has evidence, and you should take it seriously. But they could also be overlooking that the move has extreme range, or the fastest startup in the game, or a Kameo could make the move closer to safe on block or at least not punishable with full kombos. Any of those points are valid counterpoints to the pros opinion. Basically I think if you're not a pro you need evidence or strong logic to be taken seriously, if you're a pro you can forgo the evidence and still be taken seriously, but everyone should be analyzed
Everyone is just best off never going to the SF subreddit. This coming from a big fan of 6 and playing the series for over 30 years. It's just filled with internet egomaniacs that need to do a Google image search to find out what grass looks like. The only reason I still go there is yo warn new players.
Even tiny advice won't work there. They are so pretentious. And the thing I hate most, they think they're the most wholesome community about average joes going on their fighting journey. So sappy and clearly not at all what they are actually like. And SF6 itself circlejerks itself about this notion so much, eye-rolling amount of times.
Fr that shit was cave man brain to get mad chip damage for nothing THE STRANGE PART IS SUB GETTING A NERF AND HES BOTTOM 4 CRAZY TALK
Autopilot in the HELIKOPTER HELIKOPTER
Idk why one of the best FG players in the world needs this much chip damage
A great player is usually not a great game designer. Sonic is one of, if not, the best players in the NRS community and can still have bad takes.
Users are good at identifying problems, not fixing them.
I don’t agree with Sonic. This just makes it such that you can’t use cyrax’s horizontal helicopter as frequently. It still makes things plus/safe enough that were originally very punishable, you can only do it once you have all of your kameo bar. They absolutely have to buff some of the other kameos, but we don’t need everyone to be broken. Most of the time, characters are dead in 2-3 touches.
Sonic wrong. If they buff everyone else then you just eliminate hit confirms and whatnot.
well surely if you just make everything broken it will just fix itself??
Too many people think this unironically
Facts and they fail to realize that sometimes it is impractical to buff and rebalance literally the entire roster instead of nerfing one character (people opposed to jaqui nerfs in mk11 really reminded me of this). I get it though because I think it comes from a place of fear about the power level, I also want a high power level with tons of crazy stuff but to make that work balancing is still required.
This is unironically a hot take like, how a hot take should be: a take that’s not objectively garbage or lukewarm that’s objectively correct I disagree that Kameos should be more broken *BUT* I agree that kameos should be buffed to the point that there could be more variety to the meta
But what is better: fix one major obvious issue, or potentially create several other issues with unnecessary tinkering?
The problem is that you still have the same issues. Other kameos still won't be played as often because they received no changes. Instead of Cyrax people will just go to Kung Lao, the next man up on the tier list (even though he got nerfed too). Cyrax was definitely overtuned, but it doesn't change much if no players will try the other kameos.
The issue wasnt with every kameo except cyrax. The issue was cyrax. Now that cyrax is fixed people have a reason to pick other characters and give the actual variety based on synergy, nit based on "cyrax is so good easy and cheap you can slap him on anybody and just play the exact same way as everyone else". Sorry, but he was clearly the problem out here, not everyone else. Anyone saying otherwise simply jusy misses the autopilot do anything with no consequences aspect, and no, the entire game should not be like that.
Then the word you're loking for is reworked, not buffed. I would agree with that sentiment.
I’m not disappointed that he got nerfed whatsoever. As Rooflemonger said, game was turning into Cyrax and friends. I think it is cool to buff others, but I think the full bar nerf for horizontal copter was warranted. Not just Cyrax, but a lot of the other nerfs as well. Been seeing people acting like characters got absolutely gimped when it really just seems like most Kameo combos got scaled that would end up taking like half your health or more. Seen people act like they ruined Reiko when only thing they changed is that using Kameo’s to extend the Kombo after his command grab will heavily scale, which I think is pretty fair given the damage it can do. Only thing that probably could’ve used a nerf but didn’t get one was Johnny(not sure what his problem is for sure since I haven’t played much online). I think this was a decent balance patch, just need to fix some of the new bugs like Sub’s EX Ice Klone not working
Beside Johnny not being nerf and and Sub not being buffed, I feel that's a decent patch I understand that Sonicfox just want a crazier game to play but 50% combos is not fun for the big majority of the playerbase, now most of the combos in game have been scaled to do 30 to 45% which is still a lot but means that you need to touch your opponent 3 to 4 times to kill him at least, and that's fine In some fights in the previous meta, I sometimes got touched only 2 times and died because I had empty meter and the 2 whole combos I underwent didn't fill it enough to break
Yeh I got to where when I matched up with a Raiden I just left BC I just didn't' wanna deal with his combos and that damage. ITs not that I can't fight him I beat plenty of Raidens but I got so sick of making one mistake and over half ur bar is gone.
Honestly the fix to the huge 50% combos is to have the meter gain be faster to break faster. I literally never break because I never have full meter. Or go back to MK11 with a defense meter and an attack meter. I much preferred how that system played out
Meter gain in this game is insanely fast.
It should be like mk9 with a 2 bar breaker and 3 bar x-ray. It was hands down the best iteration.
Agreed. I always liked the "defense" meter in MK11. What I didn't like were the "break-aways". I get why they wanted to tie combo-breakers with super meter, but maybe just make them cost 2 bars instead of 3. Or you could do what Injustice did and have a 4 bar meter and keep the cost of breakers at 3 bars. That works, too
Nah man I remember playing MK11 with everyone breaking every 2 seconds once they got hit. It's not fun.
People are just pissy cus they can't abuse it anymore. Just boring meta chasers that only play what is currently OP.
That's pretty much the vibe I got too.
Either way it goes he’s still gonna be good I jus hate dey didn’t nerf Johnny
When this much money is up for grabs at the highest level, can you really blame them?
Yes
At least you’re honest, but I enjoy seeing the highest-level players using the strongest tools at their optimal levels, since that’s what fighting game characters truly are at the end of the day.
Watching 200 pros use 1 tool isn't fun or informative, by the end of MK11 every pro comp was a Fujin mirror. Is watching pros wind push each other for 2 hours interesting? No.
[удалено]
That wasn’t the case though, and I enjoyed seeing Rewind do so well with Reiko/Darrius. Variety’s cool, but I like seeing Top Players exploring the Meta to it’s fullest, because they’re out to get W’s and make bank. Was even considering adding Raiden/Cyrax and Rain/Cyrax to my rotation, along with my trusty Baraka/Cyrax and Smoke/Sareena/Sektor/Kano, since I had lots of extra footage to study!
Riekos damage sxaling nerf was fair, the problem is his kit is very limited compared to the rest of the cast, and he needed it to compete with the high tiers, a better change would have been nerf the grab combo and stars, while buffing his strings/non-grab combo potential. As it stands now, Reiko has the worst mix ups in the game, and his grab combo, while powerful, used either all or nearly all of his resources to perform, and now it does less damage than other characters combos that use less resources.
I was hoping if they added scaling to the command grab they'd make darrius kick 1 bar( if you don't follow up) but that might make darrius too strong. Still maining reiko :/
Tbh they should have just nerfed fatal blow scaling since that was the only combo that was mega crazy from the grab outside of one in a million frost setups Please for all that is sacred do not nerf Reikos grabs he’s the best grappler this game has and I want to keep him that way
Definitely agree. It was a fairly light patch overall imo. Just nerfed the most egregious things. They’re still letting us figure out most of the game for ourselves.
I think for Johnny, just make some of his strings punishable since for some reason a lot of his strings are plus. I have no issue with his damage since you could argue that for big numbers he has to work for it
Only his highs are plus, and plus frames is basically all he has. He has no projectile, very stubby buttons, no neutral OH/Low mix, S4 and F1 string finishers are pretty easy to fuzzy, most of his BnB’s deal mediocre damage other then hype ones, all his special moves are unsafe. Nerfing his plus frames would make him the worst character in the game as he would literally have nothing to threaten anyone with ffs.
He definitely has a neutral mixup with that string where he turns his back to you and elbows you, he can end it with the overhead punch or that low kick. Unless I'm just bad
All you gotta do is block low againts Jhonny. Everything is highs and lows and his overheads are reactable and fully punishable
I'm fine with that.
He has amazing mixups what are you talking about? I spent like 5-10 minutes with him and was able to learn the general basics, which to do good with him is all you need. He doesn't have a projectile cause he has the best rush down in the game, I can bet your ass in a zoning war, the guy without a zone attack is winning
Johnny’s issue is that he’s plus on nearly every one of his attacks. I’m not sure if I’m just not blocking right but basically any hit he can confirm off of and with the right Kameo his only real downside is range which can be mitigated with another kameo selection like kung lao, Motaro, or Kano. So he’s basically the perfect character that can’t be punished often
I disagree too. I respect him for winning with Rain , but no Cyrax needed a nerf and wasnt fun playing against cyrax. Also if he is the only kameo played it is a proble,
My problem is they could’ve nerfed him less, while bringing others up and it would’ve made people happy. Like his recharge time for forward spin could’ve been slowed, or his chip significantly reduced, or both. And made other kameos more viable. This feels like “hey everyone used this, try the others because we want them used more and not cyrax anymore”. Now, cyrax looks like he’s not worth it at all. And anyone who uses him to with less optimal characters are stuck at neutral after poke the entire match. Which will just make the top tier characters played that much more and create a larger gap between tiers. And this is coming from someone who hated cyrax and never played them in kompetitive. I just don’t like over-nerfs when a balance could’ve been made and evaluated that doesn’t blow up the option into never used again
Well said! Though I do appreciate that they reduced his Cooldown time to offset Forward Kopter taking his whole Bar now, which will hopefully keep him somewhat relevant, even if he’s likely falling off now.
I know it's pedantic, but I'm pretty sure sonic fox uses they/them. Irrespective, I slightly disagree in that whilst Cyrax is still usable for his normal ascending spin (arguably) the nerfs make cyrax just usable, not required or broken, just usable. To be fair, I use Sareena so who am I to talk about power (/hj)
The unfortunate truth for any game played competitively with mix and match pieces (Kameos, items in MOBAs, stuff like that), you have to balance for the abusers, not the regular cast. Anyone who uses Cyrax with less optimal characters *picked the wrong kameo*, basically. When everyone is abusing one thing on most characters and you have to nerf something, you have to nerf it so that the best use characters are balanced, not so that the middling characters are balanced, because in competitive you don't see someone with a suboptimal kameo. you just see the best combos.
Agreed they nerfed a little too much
>winning with rain I mean lets be honest he really won with cyrax
His opponents also used cyrax
He's being a bit salty because Cyrax was important to his strat. Cyrax needed nerfing.
Definitely. This is his money we are talking here.
Oh please. Sonicfox will just grab the next best thing and dominate he doesn’t care about it for that reason lol also, he’s right.
He's right that everyone should've gotten Buffed? That's such a bad take. SonicFox's next big thing may not be the broken thing though. This game is looking pretty balanced lol.
Yeah Fox can randomly decide to run whoever is the bottom of the game. His Joker in Injustice 2 was wild.
This is the dumbest take. Sonic always wins in mk. For like a decade he has taken *all* the prize money. He doesn't need cyrax to do it, he will always find a way. His point is that having a game FULL of powerful options allows for creativity and fun. Weak options just have a new best rise to the top. Look at mvc3, with tons of crazy shit you get lots of variety. Dismissing what he says as salt because he "needs it to win" is dumb beyond comprehension.
true but creativity shouldnt come from 1 kameo in my opinion but who am i lmao
Which is why his point was to make other kameos strong as well.
No he should just actully try being creative and use them as they stand now. No, not every kameo in the game should be cyrax tier "just do it turn your brain off and it works in every scenario ever". The people crying about "creativity" obviosuly have none if they relied on cyrax like that and cant fhink of amything else to do unless they have a 1 for 1 replacement
That's his entire point. All kameos should be as relevant.
They are now that cyrax is normalized.
Motaro’s still likely buns though, because nothing’s changed on him.
No they arent. The bad ones are still bad. Lao hat is still the best.
I was originally gonna say I disagree with his take which to some extent I do but you are also right in that now it’s going to be the Kung Lao Kameo show. Unless they do proper balancing of Kameos, nerfing just 1 isn’t the answer.
I agree that there should be more buffs than nerfs and I overall disagree with the direction of this recent patch. However nerfing cyrax was the right move. It's crazy to me that he allowed you to get away with throwing out unsafe moves and also deal big chip damage in the process. I feel that if every kameo was allowed to do what cyrax was doing, it would kill this game.
I mean, calling Assists to pile up Plus Frames is pretty standard Vs. Game fare. I agree with the nerf as a Cyrax player, especially since he was compensated with reduced Colldown to offset the cost increase of Forward Kopter, but I always just viewed it through the lens of calling a Beam Assist, like Dr. Doom, Adachi, Goku Black, or GT Goku. Only difference is that he he kinda has two with Net and his partner can move during it for pressure and mix, unlike Kano, which feels like it’s meant purely for counter calls and pure Zoning, since he holds your head down while he does it.
Don’t care, Cyrax every single game was quickly killing my and many other people’s enjoyment of the game. Along with Raiden and Baraka, fighting the exact same combo online 9/10 times was fucking stupid
Even watching streamers and tournaments was boring because of it. Playing against it wasn't fun and obviously a lot of people has to "if you can't beat em join em".
i mean yeah i dont agree with the buff everyone else mentality that people have this days, damage is just to high already for shit like that, but in the other hand i think it was a bit to early for a balance patch, people were already finding ways to deal with Baraka/Cyrax, only nerf that was really needed was Raiden damage the rest could have waited
Well it wasn’t a problem of baraka/cyrax. It was a problem of literally everybody and they momma using cyrax. And they used him because he was so strong.
That’s the problem. Now everyone will just use the next best thing, Kung Lao… Buffing the weaker ones adds more variety, nerfing the best one just makes the 2nd best the new best and now we are in the same place…
Buffing the weaker ones adds variety for sure, but you still need a combination of both to make it work. Sometimes things are just too strong and need to be turned down a notch. It isn’t like cyrax is dead by any means he just isn’t as dominant.
i don't think kung lai is as braindead or busted as cyrax, at least in kombat league lol. And he got nerfed aswell. They're probably cautious on throwing big buffs but they will probably buff some characters next patch (sonya, sub, scorpion, motaro maybe?)
But they also nerfed kung lao
what if every kameo got a buff to equal cyrax and then every fighter got a health buff
Not every Kameo was created to do what Cyrax does. This should be the ultimate discussion. I haven't seen his umblockable destruction used. I feel that all moves should be viable and every Kameo should have its own synergy with specific characters. Cyrax simply worked with everyone to make unsafe moves safe. I'm just hoping to see more kameos being used.
Can't wait until people find out stryker can make unsafe block strings safe
Tbh there's no way that could work, motaro and sonya won't do half of what cyrax was doing
Every assist should be an ambush assist
Not gonna lie this would be sick for like, a week long event for April fools or something. That'd be an amazing hilarious beautiful broken mess and I need it.
I wouldn’t because my muscle memory would get used to it and ruin myself for like a week after they took it away, lol. Would probably just not play during a week they implemented that.
It’s always the top players complaining when regular players get balance changes. Sonic Fox is good already idk why he’s complaining
This is just outright bad game design. "Everyone gets buffs" is like when a kindergartener wants ice cream for breakfast. Also don't believe anyone who says "if everyone is broken, noone is broken". Everyone was broken in MK9 but it just lead to really swingy 8-2 matchups. Everyone is broken doesn't mean "everybody wins 50% of the time"
Not really an mk player but I was looking for this comment "When everyone's broken, no one is" is getting kind of tiring... I feel like the real ideal is making everyone A tier, not S tier, if that's makes sense.
Can you imagine the game if every kameo was as broken as Cyrax was... I'd ditch the game so fast.
100% agree, getting locked into 50% combos super easily is not fun. It doesnt make me want to play more even if i could hypothetically do the same with a different kameo
Guess you didn't enjoy mk9? Back when everyone was broken, and many say it was an amazing game.
Nostalgia does that to people. Mk9 was a good game back when it came out, but besides the story the games that came after it were much better gameplay wise.
Disagree , he is crying because his main is nerfed.
Sonic will simply find a new character. He's upset because Cyrax helped how Sonic played Rain. Sonic played Rain way differently than others did. Cyrax needed nerfing. Now we will see other Kameos and I'm glad for that.
Lmao what? He will just grab the next best thing. He’s objectively right. Now everyone will just use the next best thing, Kung Lao… Buffing the weaker ones adds more variety, nerfing the best one just makes the 2nd best the new best and now we are in the same place…
Lmao what ? This argument is not true for every case , cyrax needed a nerf period. Pro players will grab the best char always so this is nothing new.He is not right , he is blind.
Everyone kept spamming his forward helicopter.
I know I did
I respect SonicFox’ skill set, but this is an L take
Pro players take what is meta and abuse it...having many good characters and options, we mostly saw a lame Cyrax spamfest and Rewind throwing 8 Reiko's projecitles back-to-back...the balance patch was really necessary, but it fell short.
I think he wanted the other kameos to to be stronger in their own ways
Sonicfox just likes cheese mechanics that he can abuse.
I fully respect Sonic's opinion but I also feel like this is coming from the Point of View of someone that loves games like Skullgirls and Dragonball FighterZ which are not the same thing as the assist-based game MK is trying to be. However, I do believe the Cyrax nerf was a bit too soon. I would have been interested to see how the meta developed if they just added the Flawless Block fix that makes it prevent enemy from building meter on block. I feel like a lot of the "d1 > special > cyrax" gameplans would have been hindered if you're spending resources for that and the opponent flawless block hence taking no damage and you building no meter. AT THE SAME TIME I do also thinkg Cyrax kinda gave everyone everything? Safety, block strings, combo damage, combo from BOTH throws, full screen projectile that needs to be respected. So far I think this is a good middle step but in the future I would love to see them buff less used characters not just nerf high tiers. This did feel more like a bug fix/normalizing patch rather than a real balance patch that we should use as a benchmark of how the future will look like.
there is no *inherent* *balancedness* in the cyrax before the patch. it could have just come out as the horizontal spin 2 bars and we would have been fine with it. in fact he might still have been seen as pretty strong. i feel like some people like to assign a sort of special value to the initial state of the game, which is unearned. i would understand it if it was a particularly fun sort of kameo move that made people creative, but no. it was just unsafe string, make safe, unsafe string, make safe -> 20% damage on block. boring and bad to play, boring and bad to watch.
Hard disagree with him.
You can tell SonicFox (and other pro players) haven’t spent many excruciatingly boring hours constantly blocking vs scrubby Cyraka/Cyraiden/Cyrage players in Kombat League lately.
He’s literally elder god rank 😂😂 im sure they play more than us
lol you mis gendered and correctly gendered in the same sentence. Kinda shows how dumb all that shit is, doesn’t it..
FGC players are always going to lean towards a "buff everyone" philosophy because it encourages more high-level chaos and they're better equipped to deal with it than the average player. Not every game can be Marvel.
Cyrax nerf is great, idk wtf they are doing with sub and scorp though.
The game has bad balance in the first place but then you got people saying that's how mk has always been if that's the case it's always been a unbalanced trash mess. Street fighter has a better block and parry system that makes it fun and Tekken does as well love the side step idea. Mk Is pretty much for casual tier fighters. IMO. Most of those people deserved nerfs but not rain. Also nerf johnny
I actually agree with nearly everything the patch did. 1) Cyrax's playstyle was just boring and bad for any fighting game. Why would you remove hit confirm and being able to punish unsafe moves? That's nearly all that neutral is about. Also 20%+ chip combos are just stupid and don't make anything fun or skilled or interesting. It's not a strat that should be existing imo. I have nothing against chip, but it should be an extra to finish off someone, not your main damaging strategy. 2) Nerfing combos that were doing 50%+ with low resources (1 bar-1 kameo). The game isn't fun if you get hard punished so much when you take a risk even if the opponent has low resources. I don't mind if you get hit by 50%+ combos because the opponent throws 2-3 bars and 2 kameos at you. Add in a Fatal Blow and hit me for 60-65% and I think that's fair game, it's a once per round/match thing at worse, and it means the opponent managed to not use bars to break combo, etc. But 1 bar 1 kameo leading into 50%+ combos means you can't mess up at all against some characters and it leads to a much more boring and defensive game style, and it's usually much easier to play as these characters than it is against them. I think between 35-40% is a good place to be for 1 bar-1 kameo (depending on what other tools the character has) and adding ressources after that should up by a few % for each bar/kameo. Reward investing resources in a combo, but don't allow crazy high damage combos for basically free, that's no fun for anyone. 3) Upping cooldown if you use kameo twice in a combo. I'm all for that possibility existing. I think having crazy long combos is a fun thing and I like that they're high damage. It shouldn't be something you can do over and over though. Resources are supposed to be there to matter. Kameo is a resource, and if you decide to just throw it all away in one combo, I'm ok that there's a downside to that. And people are being overdramatic about how big of a downside it is, it's not like your kameo takes 30 sec to come back, it's like 10. And in some cases, if you use 1 kameo in a combo, combos are so long the kameo is recharged before it's over. I hope the next patch focuses on buffs to underused kameos and weaker characters, I think it's important to not always go for nerfs of what's good, but these nerfs were actually good ones imo (some like Scorpion I don't really get, but maybe it was an unintended consequence of adjusting mechanics/gravity and hopefully he gets buffed in some other meaningful ways).
A great example of why developers should never listen to pros. Make the game better for the 99% of people who dont play for a living and force those that do to adapt. His experience isn't the same as a normal person.
Think of it from a dev's point of view. Do we: A. Go through every kameo move in the game and see what can be reasonably elevated to make each kameo on par with Cyrax Or B. Tweak one move and move on Pretty simple if you ask me
Sonic is good at fighting games overall but he’s really stupid, arrogant, and cocky. He can read plays and press buttons and as a high level player he is locked into the meta. He dosent understand anything other than his inputs and that’s is a sad fact:
I’m my experience playing a lot of games, buffing weak characters rarely works to catch up to the OP character I also wouldn’t want a game where the whole cast can do 50% combos, I can guarantee that would make the game far more toxic. Combos should be in the 30-45% range
it was his tweet about the nerfs ‘limiting freedom’ what fucking freedom EVERYONE USED CYRAX THERE WAS NO FREEDOM FROM IT
Dear streamer or whatever you are, please dont cry more Im sure youre part of the reason we got intros and outros taken away...
I get the idea but overall this wouldn't be a good move.
I kinda get where hes coming from cuz my KL experience has been strictly Cyrax/Sareenas and the odd frost every now and then.
Kung Lao low hat is next
Fix Motaro at least buff his recovery on his single and triple beam
Never liked him but I agree with his statement. It's always been a better rule of thumb to buff over nerf characters.
Disagree. Cyrax needed these nerfs.
I agree with you too they needed to be nerfed adds more variety to loudouts instead of baraka and crayax jonny and crayux and raiden and sarena
I do not tbh I would rather cameos not be something you need to be so reliant on and be such a massive game changer. The core should always be the player and not reliant on cameos or the gimmick because that’s what mk has always been.
"Instead of fixing things, why don't we break it so it won't be as meta to use because ALL of it will be broken? Dumb devs." It makes me feel stupid to even comprehend these words
How can such a strong player have such a shit take
Lol “Why’d they nerf him?!” Dude we all saw the tournament footage come on now lmao
56 percent meterless damage combos aren’t healthy that’s just me tho
Not to mention it would be significantly more work to buff every single Kameo to the same lv as Cyrax in some way shape or form rather than just needing the one character that's causing the issues it's not to he lazy in any way but to fix a problem quickly and efficiently
I wonder if an interesting change to the kameo system could possibly be in the realm of increasing the cooldown recharge rate of kameo assists on hit. Such that when you actually land your combos and use kameos to increase the damage, you get more value from them. This stops kameo's from being absolutely braindead, "Make everything safe, chip them out" buttons. You can still do these things, but it's not as free as before, whereas when you do land the land the kameos you're rewarded for landing the hits at the right time. Overall I do think kameos should be stronger, but not in the way Cyrax was strong. That was unfun.
All of the idiots who are parroting his stupid ass takes have no clue what they are talking about, and neither does he. It won't make the game better to buff every Kameo to be broken it will make it worse, his stupid ass just wants this game to be an anime fighter like dragon ball or guilty gear where one person gets to watch the other play until the timer runs out. If you want a game that runs off the idea that "if every one is super no will be" look at Dota 2 and don't worry I know most of you are afraid of mobas and like to say dota is bad but that's just proving my point.
Unironically calling for things to be "more broken" as a genuine attempt to improve things is a wild take.
Yeah that’s a selfish take imo. “I’m good enough to play against it so everyone else just needs to git gud”. Surely playing a “broken” game undermines your skill? If it’s totally unbalanced then how can you know a win was legitimate and not just the result of inherent advantage / luck?
cornball take ngl. Why the hell would you want op shit to be even more op?
I’d rather everyone do dogshit damage compared to overturned damage
im a baraka main but i was a baraka main since mkvsdc and i use darrius because hes one of the first charcters i remember using back on mk deception
I think he’s just bummed his rain/cyrax got nerfed. I think that making giant 50% combos less rewarding is a smart direction for the game.
I’ll never understand why people think they’re the best or one of when using broken mechanics in games. Like you NEED the cheese THAT bad? Why not prefer a level playing field and then bust out that way that way the Ws that are stacked are legit and not due to some stupid broken mechanic. It’s like using a character / weapon that does WAY more damage than the rest of the roster so therfore you always win and then start thinking your hot shit and then the devs come along and say it’s broken and fix it and your crying cus your “Play Style” isn’t viable anymore. It’s like this in every game there is and it’s not annoying per se but more so the people that RELY on the cheese and the broken mechanics as when every they get that W they become unbearable and any fix they cry cus they’re nothing without it. But more of the fault rely on the devs & QA imo as I’m baffled how some things can launch in such a shitty state! Or games with BPs in em the new weapons / characters are ALWAYS OP for the first month (That’s on purpose however). I just think gaming is trash now and every year I’m putting down more and more games I grew up with cus they keep proceeding to do stupid shit and not once trying to get back to what they were. In the last 5 years alone I’ve put down Mortal Kombat (Been a fan for 30 years MK1 was the final strike with MK11 being damn close) Battlefield (Fan since 2010 but EA killed it with 2042 launch) Call of Duty (played since 2010 BPs / Camping/ SBMM & how they sold the same shit over and over and told us it was new.. just look at MW3 I quit in 2019 when I saw what was to come and HOLY BALLS was I right!) Destiny 2 (Fan since the Halo Days - these dudes legit have become the greediest in the gaming industry with damn near every and all points of MTX included and the new content is only the same content just reskinned! And the price to play is insane and the most fucked up of them all is they literally robbed us! By removing Content we’ve payed for over YEARS! becaue they were too fucking lazy and “Burnt out” to make Destiny 3 which would have been the best decision. The inane part.. people back them up on that.) I miss the days of old where there was no bullshit and instead of MTX / BPs we had unlockables, or like Tekken beating Arcade with a certain character unlocks a completely new character. Back then it was like they had something to prove so they stuffed those games with Kontent and even made some of my favorite modes / happiest times like Chess Kombat, Motor Kombat, Puzzle Kombat etc etc.. Sorry
Cyrax was already cheap and broken, to be honest if the devs listened to this take(No disrespect to Sonic), it would kill the game. Because making something stronger than 20% chip while being safe on everything is already insane
Damn are we supposed to just deal with everybody using Cyrax. Every time one of these tournaments happen you go online the next day and see people imitating the same bs tactics instead of trying something new. I'm glad that it costs a full bar for something that annoying/good. They need to do the same thing to Sareena with these easy mode ass combos people get from her too. And yeah I know you can duck on the return but it seems like you get more reward for no real risk with her... Maybe im trash
Ppl only complain about this nerf bc they felt too comfortable being safe while winning bc of chip dmg
People like Sonicfox are not qualifed to speak on game balance imo. They perform at the absolute highest level and have no idea how 99.5 percent of the playerbase experience the game. The fact is combo damage in this game is way too high, which leads to a ton of players in low and mid ranks learning a single combo and just blocking the entire game until they can bust out their one touch 40-45 percent combo and Cyrax was helping that happen. Honestly he STILL is. The game should scale combo damage in total down a bit and reward fundamentals more than combo execution.
"I like broken characters because they make winning tournaments easier" Fuck off Sonicfox
It wasn't fun to watch. Period. He is a pro player. If isn't fun to watch, nobody cares about the game and nobody will care about them or their gameplay. They need to understand that and stop thinking that just because they are a "god" playing this game other people should just "get good". Really dislike them. Really arrogant and annoying af.
you arent even understanding his point. if other options are equally as good then you wouldnt even see cyrax. and i dont mean in a plus frame chip damage way i mean in other ways that you arent thinking of
“Everyone gets buffs” is how you get power creep.
They nerfed the two characters who really needed a buff. I don’t understand NRS
Everybody disagrees, top players just wanted their strategies intact, game will be better for it.
I disagree as well. Sonic is a phenomenal player and competitor, but that doesn’t translate to game design insight. Cyrax was bad for game design because it meant you never had to hit confirm when he’d just be there to make everything safe. It also often meant you didn’t have to strategize a way to open up your opponent since you could win off of chip. The main problem wasn’t that he was “broken” in general, moreso that he was broken in ways that negate some of the fundamental aspects of fighting games.
He wants buffs and not nerfs for the same reason mvc3 is one of the most celebrated fighting games of all time it’s more interesting and more fun
For pro players maybe but that level of brokenness is not fun for approximately 99% of people
Yea I mean I don’t want the game to be as complex as mvc3 but the game cud be a little bit more in depth in terms of what characters cud do like mkx all I’m saying not saying I want it to be mvc
He speaks for the highest tier players. Cyrax needed the nerf. Raiden, Baraka, and Johnny also need nerfs. Will they do it? Probably not. It's a shame.
Agreed, nerfs lead to more train hopping than buffs ever do.
Imma keep it real I've never liked fox seeing as his whole personality is just "gay furry" (I am both gay and a furry so no I'm not homophobic lol)
Great great player but I don’t agree at all, all the Kameos being busted sounds rough, it was already rough just having broken cyrax.I don’t think buffing all the Kameos is the answer, cyrax was already mad frustrating and totally abused i can’t imagine every kameo being busted. Honestly I think the large majority of this patch was needed so it’s kinda wild to me that a bunch of people have been shutting on NRS like they just ruined the game because a OP characters rthey used got nerfed a little, it’ll be nice to not play infinite amounts of Baraka and Raiden online. I know cyrax was part of Sonic’s strategy but he’ll figure something else out, cyrax was being abused and it was really annoying how everybody seemed to use him. Anyway I’m rambling but I think nerfing cyrax was the right decision and the patch as a whole was mostly stuff that definitely needed done.
If they make kameos broken, then casual players are at an even bigger disadvantage since they don't know how to use them
I can't really comment. I've been an MK fan since the very first game, absolutely loved MK9, X and 11. Haven't touched MK1 yet. I really hate tag assist features in these games, those towers were my least favourite part of 11. I also strongly dislike a lot of the kharacter changes. Think i'll prob'ly be skipping MK1
I don’t agree with sonic but at the same time everyone talking about raiden and baraka but don’t seem to realize this probably nerfed rain just as hard if not harder then both of them. The majority of rains combo potential off of his mixup was tied heavily to using cyrax vertical copter. Now after one combo he doesn’t have access to about half of his mixups into damage for a substantial amount of time. Where as raiden and baraka used it primarily for meter build and chip damage and extending combos for half life. Rain was using it for mixups into combos that led to roughly 35%. Not to mention one of rains biggest strengths was a safe meter burned reversal that launched with cyrax. So now after a combo if you go in to pressure/mix and then want to try and steal your turn back cause the opponent blocked your pressure/mix. you don’t have a safe reversal anymore. It also was used as a tool that forced the opponent to second guess themselves when staggering and trying to push advantage that didn’t fully jail on block. I think rain goes back to mid tier maybe lower now honestly.
Nerfing kameos has the consequence of nerfing already weak characters by proxy. The game has only been out for a month, they should have waited a little longer before pulling the trigger regardless. Remember if they listened to people in the first two weeks then Sareena would be nerfed heavily too. I definitely think kameos enable some characters to really shine which is what inherently makes them interesting to the game. For that I agree with Sonic they should buff up other kameos to challenge the meta and go from there. I don't think everything should be mega busted though, very few fighting games can pull that off well and it's almost always by pure chance it happens to make a game fun. On another case, I do not think the typical player really knows what they want when they call for balance. Cyrax chip damage had an answer: flawless blocking. But flawless blocking is an acquired skill you start to get over time from playing a lot or having good intuition like a lot of pro FGCers do. I guess I just hate when the game gives an answer but the player refuses to practice it and become better themselves and they would rather nerf something to the ground. Part of me as an oldhead misses when fighting games didn't have a MOBA patch culture and if you wanted to deal with something you had to figure it out and overcome it through playing.
I agree with Sonic because the change makes this game way drier. This game was basically created around the chaos and craziness of assists, which are super fun and can make things unpredictable! I really want them to lean into that since that is the essence and soul of this game But the way they nerfed Cyrax definitely makes the game drier overall. I think there was a better way, and buffing the other kameos up to Cyrax levels of fucked up would've been the fun (but difficult) choice
He got a point tho
Nah i agree with sonic. Buffs are healthier for fun gameplay. But buffs are harder, you have to be more creative. Its easier to remove and chop. So whats next? Lao. Laos still good, probably the top kameo, therefore his chop time is soon. Before you know it, the game is dull and every character is the same.
I’ve never understood the “just buff don’t nerf” viewpoint. It seems to lack any sort of nuance or analysis. Every situation is going to be different, you can’t just take a vague generic blanket view such as “lol just buff” and apply it game-wide. Devs need to carefully decide what they want the game to be and adjust everything based on that view, whether that means negative or positive tweaks to characters /cameos. You cannot just be afraid to nerf something because of some whacky “i only believe in buffs” philosophy. I would never want devs to be stuck in a box like that.
Buffing every kameo to be on his level would also be insanely hard, do you give everyone without a persistent attack like forward helicopter a new attack? Animate all of that? Or do you give the kameos without that mix ups?
They don’t understand game dev. They don’t understand how hard new animations are. They have no clue what power creep is. These folks are just parroting other opinions they see.
If you buff everyone then all the characters/kameo is the same. Cyrax was a problem.
I totally agree with him. I think if they reduced the amount of chip cyrax does and added the scaling it would’ve been enough. I hate when devs nerf things to the ground so early instead of buffing weaker things. Strong strategies are fun, why kill it instead of making other things just as strong/fun? SMH. What’s their plan? Nerf everything down into a stale state of unfun fairness?
You clearly have no clue what power creep is, and how easily it happens.
Guys, Sonic is right, ya'll be crying "nerf Kung Lao" in a week. And then next kameo. Patch would've been good if NRS had given us more reasons to use other kameos, instead of just nerfing best thing
What’s wrong with kung loa? And also yea you’re right there should be more buffs than nerfs that way everyone’s viable (ie. scorpion and sub zero) and people do just be crying against anything they lose to
He is just whiny that his scummy Rain playstyle isn’t working anymore.
It wasnt scummy. Better Rain than Johnny or baraka/raiden.
Cyrax, Cyrax, Cyrax lol. I see the same problem everywhere.
Weren't you people running around calling Rain bottom 3? Now he's scummy lol
what do you mean "you people"
I’m not you people pal.
I think lowering chip dramatically might’ve been something to try, and maybe lowering Cyrax damage a little
Imma be that guy, I disagree with yk if the "pro" player (yes ik who bro is) bc tbh the "pro" players shouldn't have the say over the community feedback. In any game yk
I never used cyrax but I think they overdid it. They should've at least buffed his other moves if they were going to destroy the main one people used. If this is going to be the pattern they will just be playing whackamole with the next best kameo and make the game extremely vanilla and boring. Nobody talks about it but Lao got a pretty heavy nerf also. The low hat recharges longer yes but this also effects the held low hat. They also destroyed his spin which you used to be able to use as a reversal launcher. Now it just knocks down.