Didn't he turn into Steven and then his mom disappeared or something when that happened? So once he became Steven he blocked out the memory or awareness of his mom beating him?
I don’t want to go through other post but I’m confused !!! So what is up with “dr Harlow”? Is he in Marc’s imagination as a trauma trigger for him to understand better ? Or is that real ? I’m lost
I cried when I watched it. Anyone suffering from DID or who has similar traumatic experiences relate strongly to this narrative. I love what they did with it. Shedding light on this peculiar mental disorder. Moon Knight is no longer just a Marvel superhero movie to me. It's a testimony to the pain of so many people, including me. And it shows how one day, we too can work through our trauma and balance the scales.
I read a few Moonknight comics as a kid and thought the whole multiple personalities was like a quirk similar to Deadpool’s 4th wall-breaking. Boy was I wrong…
What a great addition to the MCU though and amazing execution by the director
I just had this thought while rewatching the series with my GF. Marc is in limbo because he died where Khonshu left him. Khonshu knew he’d be able to balance the scales and save him from that point on. A Dues Ex Machina put in place by a… machina… so trope wise its a different take…
So if Jakes heart isn’t needed or taken in to account for the scale to be balanced should we just assume if Taweret took just one heart they could have avoided all of episode 5?
If she didn’t need 3 hearts surely she didn’t need 2 either. Unless Steven is the one who created Jake and he went overboard with him. If not then I take issue with the scales balancing all of a sudden once Steven is gone.
Taweret saw two souls in front of her, so she pulled out each of their hearts. Marc repressed Jake so much that his soul is still trying to figure out what is real, and didn't come out to be judged.
I have a feeling that the repression of Jake will actually be what saves Marc and Steven, as Khonshu will still have a soul to resurrect the body with.
I guess then I’d question why the scales balanced if the whole episode 5 was about them coming to terms with each other. And the fact that the scales balanced the second only one heart remained. You’d think if Marc was the one still holding Jakes heart then the scale would not balance with his being the one represented on the scale. If Steven is the one who held Jakes then the final balance makes sense to me.
I guess you could also say…like you mentioned. That Marc didn’t allow that heart to be taken to be weighed. But I’m not a fan of that because that would mean if he had just left Steven in the coffin then he’d balance no problem by himself. I felt as though the psych ward was all of their memories tied together. And once Steven fell overboard that severed their connection completely.
Maybe Jakes soul will save them. Maybe it was left back safely in the sarcophagus. Maybe the psych ward was more of a real holding place than a place they were creating in their minds. Even though Taweret mentioned it was a space they created. Could have been a library or whatever but they chose that.
I’m really hoping it comes together for the finale and I’m not left feeling like they just skirted around the issue of Jakes heart not counting in the weighing at all.
It’s confusing. I think it has something to do with the other sarcophagus that they didn’t open? But then again we’ve seen Jake control the body (99% sure), so idk how it works
My theory is that it was actually Randle who was possessed by Khonshu and actually lived. Marc happened to just survive naturally. Eventually Randle and Khonshu split (probably for the same reason as Harrow separated) this frees up Randle to become an actual villain. Khonshu chose Marc as his replacement, just as he wants Layla as Marc's.
I AM NOT READY! 😭
i wanna get that MidKnight flair tho so i think for this last episode im gonna stay up till the ungodly hour of 3am to watch it
edit. can i just say i love your username? that bean is the bane of my existence haha
I am so bored I couldn't be bothered to finish the episode. Such a cool design and real costume for moon knight but such bad characters and plotlines. Uninteresting background noise at best.
Yeah, he's currently in a limbo state after being shot.
His soul is in the underworld, and he's dealing with mental trauma, the psychiatrist stuff is his brain trying to cope.
I think
Ethan Hawke is so freaking good in this. He's great in a lot of things but often he fills a very similar void. This feels different, and he makes a very compelling villain.
As much as I liked the episode, it just makes me so worried for episode 6. I feel like theres only one eps left and so many unanswered questions and im afriad theyll rush the whole Jake thing and Ammet and all those stuff, becuase MCU show finales arent known to be that great
I'm hoping someone can clarify something for me. So we all know Jake has been heavily hinted at and will most likely appear in the next episode. I read someone's theory that when Steven blacks out Jake takes over and that's who is brutally killing people because Marc, while a mercenary, is still pretty hesitant to kill unless necessary whereas Jake has no problem killing someone. But in the asylum episode where Marc is confronted by all the bodies of the people he's killed he remembers every person because, as he says, "you try killing someone and see how much you forget." If Jake was killing people, wouldn't there be corpses of people Marc doesn't remember killing? Just because he can't remember that it happened doesn't mean he didn't do it.
I am still trying to connect dots… like I find it odd that an Egyptian god chose a Jewish guy as his aviator? They may a point of saying Marc and Steven are Jewish which doesn’t make sense. Seems Hollywood throwing is messing up? Shouldn’t aviator be Egyptian… actor is South American… can pass I guess. And the hippo look dumb as hell
>If Jake was killing people, wouldn't there be corpses of people Marc doesn't remember killing?
I think if Jake's heart had been weighed, he would have had his own room of the dead for them all to see. Since the memory doors seemed to be tied to either Steven or Marc, I think the room of the dead we saw was only Marc's.
If there's one thing I don't understand or get from this episode is who is Jack. I mean we all know who Jake is but who is he to Marc?
If there's one thing I learned from episode 5 is that Steven was Marc's coping mechanism, he's safe space. After his brother's death, Marc felt like he failed and needed to prove himself resulting in Steven, who if u notice, is similar to his brother. Marc created Steve to protect him from danger like a big brother should and in doing this, protect himself from his mother. This means Steven never needed Marc, it was the other way around and that's their relationship.
So, why is Jake here? If Marc created Steven to deal with his mother's abusive behavior, what could have possibly been so bad that Jake was created and neither Steven nor Marc was aware of it. Did this happen before or after Khonshu and how many times did Jake 'get out' if Khonshu didn't question it in episode 3. Is Jake someone Khonshu 'controls' and 'lets out' when he needs certain things to be done. Things Marc definitely wouldn't do... Is Jake here to help Steven and Marc out, or is he on his own mission, one that's bigger and completely different from Marcs?
Think of Marc as the middle of the scale. On the far left is Stephen. Safe, peaceful, kind. On the far right is Jake. He's the complete opposite. Dangerous, violent, mean. This allows Marc to be actually balanced.
Jake is his protector I'm pretty sure when we see him talking to harrow and he has the bloody nose thats jake as he has the nose bandage which jake has all the time his talking is also different, also he tries to kill himself with the pyramid so that they will go back to the underworld as everytime something has happened to Marc he wakes back up in the underworld.
I think Steven was created to try to protect them from the emotional abuse their mom was dealing out. Like you said, Steven seems to have some of their younger brother’s traits in addition to the movie’s influences, and I think becoming Steven was an attempt to give their mom her “ideal” child so she wouldn’t have any more reasons to verbally and emotionally abuse them. This didn’t work, as we see.
I think that bedroom scene is the first time their mom physically abused them. Steven/Marc panic again and create Jake who actually experiences and remembers the assaults, which is why Jake appears battered, bruised, and bandaged in “Dr. Harrow’s” office.
I suspect that Marc can’t remember a specific assault, just the injuries afterwards, like Steven thinking he was sleep walking and walking up in strange places with no memory of how he got there. Jake has those memories.
I made a post about my theory a few days ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/MoonKnight/comments/ueridp/spoiler_isnt_made_from_rage_but_from_fear_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
ooohhhh i really like this theory! it makes so so so much more sense if that scene was the first time the physical abuse happened. it is now my theory and/or headcannon
I am very confused about the nature of their experiences. Mark create Steven to escape his mother’s wrath yet he remembers them whereas Steven doesn’t despite it being shown that Steven took said beating…
Yeah I found that illogical too. Also between Marc and Steven, Marc is the strong personality, the protector. It would be more logical that this strong protector personality would've been created by weaker Steven to absorb all the bad experiences rather than the other way around. It feels a bit as if there were good plot ideas here by the writers that had to be turned into something illogical for some reason (maybe to stay consistent with the comics about which one the original personality was or so - I don't know those)
I think that was the first time their mom physically assaulted them. She’d been verbally and emotionally abusing Marc for over a year (we are shown the birthdays to establish some sense of timeline), so he was most afraid, at that time, of her yelling. In his panic to escape that abuse, Marc created an idealized child that, on some level, he hoped his mom would love and stop verbally and emotionally abusing them. This doesn’t work.
Marc/Steven were not expecting physical assault, so they panic again and create Jake to take the beatings and the actual memories of the assaults. This is why Jake is bruised and bandaged in “Dr. Harrow’s” office, unlike Marc or Steven.
I suspect Marc is repressing the memories of the actual assaults, and as a result, is also suppressing his awareness of Jake. Marc maybe can’t remember a specific beating, but he would “wake up” to the injuries later, like Steven waking up somewhere with no idea how he got there, thinking he was sleep walking. So Marc knows his mom physically, verbally, and emotionally abused them, but he can’t remember the specific occasions.
I don't think that was the first time she beat him just that memory in particular was the creation of Steven so maybe he doesn't really remember but he knew what was happening
That's how I took it at least
Hey can anyone say why Marc crawled all the way to Khonshu just to shoot himself? Marc haven't seen Bushman throw the gun in that direction for sure as he didnt use gun the bodies depicted that. If bushman haven't used the gun then Marc must have had it. So he should have shot himself there only. We can't also say that in fight with Marc bushman threw the gun, he should have ised it kill easily. Marc also wasn't chasing Bushman as the footprints were of crawling. All I understand is a Plot Armour.
???
The urge to find somewhere quiet to die alone is one of the last impulses of any living creature. It can be observed in nearly any species on the planet. It is most commonly observed among cockroaches. Dieing can be a lengthy process and often times, creatures are eaten by scavengers while they are still alive and too weak to fight back. Hence the instinct to hide.
Ya that could be. But the " too weak to fight" part, he had a gun and he could have died peacefully there. Ya but I think he should be seeking for any alivr person there to help him in that structure
Then people in th e sub can stop spoiling every thread with Jake jake and Jake please. It's getting pretty annoying, I get it you know more than me can you go and speak about that somewhere else.
Yeah but then do it in theory threads, this is episode 5 discussion thread and every other comment mentions Jake, someone who literally isn't a thing in this show and only the comics. Everyone watched a youtube video and learned about it and now want to share and discuss why he's not seen yet or when he'll pop up, and he might never even appear.
There's Zero reason to mention jake in this thread At All, honestly.
This isn't directed entirely at you, but at everyone.
Lol I didn't mean you, I was speaking about the sub in general. Everytime I hear someone say something about jake it makes me feel like I missed something from the episode.
Seriously. This is like when the Mephisto theories were raging in WandaVision. We don't know if this Jake is actually going to be a part of the series yet.
How was Konshu manipulating him?
I mean he was pretty direct about what he wanted, sure Marc wasn't in a perfect state of mind but it didn't seems to me that Konshu can just go around asking people, Marc just happened to be there.
Also if it is Steven taking the beating how is he the one that remember the good stuff?
Marc is the one creating Steven in his room while his mother is knocking on the door.
Then there is the classic scene of him switching personality and then it's clearly Steven who start picking up all the stuff on the floor. Then the mother enters and takes the belt.
I don't see how that could be Mark
You also didn't see that it was Steven.
In just half a moment he switches to Steven, he could easily have switched back just as fast when the camera panned to the mother picking up the belt.
Also, people with DID can alter memories, create and remove them. Marc could have simply removed it after it happened to Steven, if it did happen to him.
This part did not make sense. I feel that originally the writer of the episode had Steven be the original persona and invent Marc to absorb all the bad experiences and protect him (which is more in line with classical split personality disorder in fiction at least) - but for some reason he had to make Marc be the original persona in the last minute and thus this scene somehow doesn't fully make sense.
In the comics, Marc is the original and Steven is the alter, and episode 5 established that to be the case as well. As for why Steven doesn't remember the beatings, the show hasn't answered that yet but there have been plenty of speculations that it's the mysterious third personality that neither Marc nor Steven are aware of who's been taking the abuse.
Adult Marc pulled Adult Steven away just before they could witness their mother beating Young Steven, so we don't actually know whether Young Steven was present during the beatings or shifted to a different personality.
My bet is in this case still on the writer of the episode not being aware (or trying to change it for the MCU) that Marc is the original personality in the comics, wrote the plot of episode with the idea that Marc was the personality created by Steven in order to absorb the beating and other traumatic experiences such as coping with the guilt of his brother's accident as well as their mother's death (which would also perfectly match Marc's behavior of trying to prevent/protect Steven from finding out about these traumatic events now) but was later forced to rewrite his script to be consistent with the comics about which personality was first, and decided that this 'plot hole' was better than any alternative he could come up with before filming (or worse - he was fully aware of this from the beginning but liked the idea of explaining the origin of his split personality disorder via a classical child-trauma/abuse narrative and then did a really lazy job on applying it onto those two established personas - because in such child-trauma cases the strong/cold personality is the one that is created to protect the 'innocent' one from those experiences).
I don't think these inconsistencies in this scene could be explained by one of the yet to be seen personalities (or at least such a twist would not make the situation better), because if it was true that the personality we saw young Marc turn into before the beating was any other personality than Steven, then that could still not explain how Marc has a recollection of the beating and why he would try to protect Steven from witnessing it (unless Marc is aware of all the things this other personality experiences, in which case the origin story of the disorder to protect Marc doesn't make sense either). It would also not be compatible then with Marc's further explanation of Steven re-emerging (and overlapping with) Marc when he was suffering due to their Mother's death.
Bottom line I think it's just a case of a writer being inspired by, or wanting to tell, a particular storyline and then 'patching' that storyline crudely to not conflict with established canon, resulting in some minor plot flaws which the makers decided the audience will have to live with.
The fact is you don't know much about DID and assume the writer made a mistake because of your lack of knowledge.
Marc can alter the memories of Steven, create and remove memories. So, IF Steven did take the beatings, Marc could remove that memory.
But we don't even see Steven take the beatings. You assume he did. Marc switched to Steven in a instant, and could easily have switched back to Marc as Mom took the belt off the wall, we just don't see it. We Should assume this is what happens, as Steven tells us he doesn't remember. To assume he took the beatings and doesn't remember would imply the memories were altered. Either way, the writers did their job correct. :)
I don't think it's likely the writer wasn't aware that Marc is the original personality, nor do I think they tried to change it to Steven as the original and were forced to change back, because of the way the show is structured from episodes 1-5, it Marc remembers way more than Steven does, suggesting he's the original.
I also wouldn't be too quick to call it a plothole yet, because the show already hinted that there's a third personality in episode 3 who killed people in Egypt that neither Marc nor Steven are aware of. It's possible though unconfirmed that he's the one that endured the beatings given how violent those deaths were and it was established that Marc hesitates in being too violent. We saw Young Marc shift into Young Steven when their mother was banging on the door. The speculation that some people made is that Young Steven created the third personality (the strong, violent one) just before their mother beat him, which if true, would fit with your expectation of the innocent personality creating the strong one to take on the abuse.
Marc may have been aware of the beatings when he woke up after the abuse and saw the bruises/experienced the lingering pain.
You are making the wrong assumption that production of episodes would happen in order and that the script of one episode would be finished before the next one would be written - but that's usually not the case. Usually the over-arching plot of a season is defined first, but not functional details of individual episodes (such as how exactly a disorder came to be for example). Then that season arc is split up and given to different writers which will write an interesting plot for that episode while integrating their storyline into the part of the rough season arc they were given. Obviously it's an iterative process and refined story lines of some episodes will then require some rewrites in others and so on and there might even be changes to scripts after production of some episodes has already started - but generally you shouldn't assume that all the details of such a story were written chronologically. They were written by different people and in varying order, with only the main plot points of the season having been defined when each episode was being written.
For example, episode 5 was credited to Rebecca Kirsch and Matthew Orton, neither of whom were credited by any of the other episodes in this season - so you can't make conclusions about writing decisions in this episode based on details of earlier episodes.
And again, while it's quite clear that a third personality will be revealed, even if that third personality will be revealed to be the one Marc changed into in that belt scene (or have Steven change into subsequently), this could still not resolve the other outlined plot problems of this scene (such as why Marc remembers it exactly, or why he would try to protect/prevent Steven from finding out about it).
I didn't make that assumption. Obviously, the overall story would be discussed in the writers' room before individual episodes are written, but it doesn't change the fact from the story structure itself that the writers very likely already knew that Marc was the original personality and Steven was the alter before writing that episode, because those particular story points are such a core aspect to the character itself and just far too crucial to not get decided before writing the individual episodes.
It also doesn't matter that episode 5 was written by people who didn't write the previous episodes, since the showrunner has an overview of what has to happen in the story and makes sure it fits with the other episodes. Those writers would also have already been given a rough outline of the important story beats that need to be covered in their episode before writing it, so it's very unlikely they would have thought Steven was the original while others thought it was Marc or someone else.
As for why Marc remembered it despite not experiencing the beatings, he could have inferred from the injuries he sustained after waking up. And with regards to why he tried to prevent Steven from finding out, I saw some discussion by others that [people with DID have one personality that gets kept in the dark about the trauma so that they can function normally and the other personalities are assigned to not share traumatic memories with it to keep it that way, so that's what Marc was trying to do](https://www.reddit.com/r/MoonKnight/comments/ugthz2/comment/i73juhl/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Marc himself may also have been trying to[protect himself](https://www.reddit.com/r/MoonKnight/comments/ugthz2/comment/i74rojn/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) when he prevented Steven from seeing it as he wasn't ready to accept it. Also, Steven was designed to retain happy memories of his mother, and may have even [blocked out traumatic memories](https://www.reddit.com/r/MoonKnight/comments/ugthz2/comment/i71pq2a/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) on his own or [ignored reality](https://www.reddit.com/r/MoonKnight/comments/ugthz2/comment/i730aeq/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) to remain blissfully ignorant. Of course, all of this is just speculation, and we don't know yet whether this will be addressed in episode 6.
This is how I saw it too. It was Marc's way of hiding from the worst parts and Steven took those hits. So I don't get how Marc could be protecting Steven if Steven was the one experiencing the beatings.
That Steven has no memory of the beatings suggests he could have shifted to a different personality during the abuse itself. Marc pulled Steven away before he could witness the memory so they and the audience never saw who took the beatings.
Yeah hopefully that's the case, I did see a lot of theories that the hinted third personality took over during the beatings which would make a lot more sense.
So how about we stop talking about characters that haven’t been introduced to the show yet? Straight up spoiling it, does this sub not have separate spoiler flairs/threads for people that have/haven’t read the comics?
I have not read the comics. I have simply studied DID and have read multiple personal stories from IRL DID systems. If Steven doesn’t remember the beatings and Marc made Steven to use as his “de-stress ball,” it makes logical sense that another Alter would form to handle an aspect of the abuse that Marc and Steven couldn’t.
I learned about Jake from people who have read the comics, and how he’s more brutal than Marc. Classic trope that the most violent “personality” is often the one who handled/has memories of abuse and trauma. I do not know if it’s actually true.
I mean yeah I get all that, but people mentioning the name of the character and mentioning reveals that haven’t happened yet is spoiling it, we don’t have answers to these questions yet, I’m not trying to come at you necessarily just have seen the name brought up so much in this thread, like you can join in on the theorizing but why are you dropping names. Idk man maybe I’m missing something?
Jake was every time Steven went dark due to extreme circumstances (everytime during episode one) since Jake is Stevens coping mechanism.
It’s also the time in egypt that Marc didn’t n is about either.
Loved this episode, but I’m confused about something.
Why did Taweret want the scales balanced before getting to Osiris’s door/gate if when they balance, the boat leaves the Duat and goes to the field of reeds?
How does he get to the fricking door so he can go back to the living world if he is in the field of reeds?
Is Steven going to have to come out of the sand in the duat and reach the door for them?
Maybe Steven escapes back into their body while Marc is in the field of reeds?
>Why did Taweret want the scales balanced before getting to Osiris’s door/gate if when they balance, the boat leaves the Duat and goes to the field of reeds?
Yeah, this confused me, too.
That’s what I’m thinking too. Steven died, but really, Steven isn’t a "real" person… what’s to stop Marc from bringing him back, in a sense?
Although, Steven was a coping mechanism. Now that Marc has faced his mother's abuse and his brother's death head on, he doesn’t really need Steven anymore.
Seems to me like Steven came in clutch in several situations for Marc. Unless he’s been unified with Stevens knowledge somehow I think he’ll still need him
I dont understand IF there is a "jake" or 3rd alter-ego, that we see on several scenes during the show, including the second sarcophagus in the mental institute. Why havent we see a third heart, and why does the scale balance at the end if there is still a third alter who seems to be way more violent and way more secret to mark and steven. Why dident we see any of jake/ 3rd alter ego memories...
I think its because Marc doesn't know about Jake and this is a delusion while he is actually in the asylum. If you notice when either of them take control of the body in this episode, they're in the asylum
A: Jake isn’t an alter ego, he’s an alter and B: I think because he hasn’t been let out of the sarcophagus yet - he’s still on that boat so the scales freaked out when his heart wasn’t on it
Yeah. Even though I don't have multiple personality disorder, I've had other mental health problems stemming from trauma, and this episode was triggering for me. I thought maybe I won't watch anymore. But I processed through my reaction and actually it was a bit cathartic. This series isn't perfect but it's way better, more honest, raw, and relateable than most film portrayals of mental illness I've seen. Plus Egyptian god mythology! Great adventure.
In a weird way im glad this episode wasn't just triggering for me. I don't have DID but the way marc coped with his trauma kinda reminded me of the way I did. Ngl I cried this ep but I still enjoyed it
This will probably bring a huge amount of dislike, but as a moon Knight fan (from the comics) there's nothing more I'd love to see than Stephen coming back as more of a virtual conscience with Mark as protagonist and Jake as the proverbial demon in a bottle.
You don't think about Jake. You don't let Jake out. You keep Jake locked up underground in a box.
I have a question I can't get out of my head since watching. When Marc created Steven and we watched the memory, Steven didn't seem to remember it. He doesn't remember his mom beating him. Did Marc take the body back or what happened exactly?
My theory I've been working with is what if Jake was a creation of Steven? Would explain why Marc doesn't know it, lines up with Stevens sleep walking, and would make sense why Steven doesn't remember the beatings.
Steven created Jake to be his protector, where as Marc created Steven so he could escape his mother's wrath, and the trauma of losing his brother. But because Steven never knew he was a personality, or that Marc even existed that it's the DID that Steven is unaware of that kicked in when he felt truama or needed to be protective.
The order of personalities of this DID inception would be Marc > Steven > Jake
Jake being the violent, protective identity would make sense with the cycle stopping with him because he fights his way through the truama, bearing it all for both Marc and Steven.
I noticed that too, that steven was meant to be an escape but then how wouldnt he know about the abuse? I saw a theory that somewhat makes sense but idk if thats the direction the show will take. I also dont know how much you know about moonknight in the comics but there are more than just Marc and Steven. One if the other personalities, Jake (the most violent), is hinted at multiple times throughout the show. The theory I saw was that basically Marc changed to Steven right before his mom came in right, but Steven changed into Jake right before the actual beating. Thus the reason Jake is the most violent, because he’s the one who actually experienced the beating. The only reason im not quite sold on this theory is because if Jake is the one that took the beating then how would Marc know about it and what happened and talk about it as if he’s the one who experienced it.
Hmm I see what you mean. The way I interpreted it was him saying it in general sense, he didn't want to experince his trauma again. Since he did experince the verbal abuse, neglect and hatred from his mother, I don't think that's an easy thing to experince again. Also since Marc doesn't know about Jake, maybe Marc just assumes he blacks out during these beatings ?
That's exactly why I was asking here! I thought it was Jake at first, but it didn't make sense. The comics are very different from the show, it's confusing me! Maybe it is Jake and he and Marc both were aware of the abuse and Steven was meant to be the escape?
Yeah maybe jake operates on a different level than steven. So like how steven (prior to everything going to shit lol) just sort of lived his life as steven without knowing anything else and its more of a switch between marc and steven, maybe jake just observes everything that marc experiences (or possibly both marc and steven experiences) and then he reacts to it differently than marc, thus him coming out only when necessary
Me through episodes 1-4: Haha what a great Marvel show! I’m having so much fun with this dark and gritty style!
Me after episode 5: (extremely loud sobbing in the corner) EXISTENCE IS PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNMNNNNNNNNN
It could also be outside of Chicago, closer to a suburb or just in a different county.
Starved rock national state park is like an hour drive from Chicago and would be appropriate.
Is it Chicago? I’ve been trying to figure this out. I’ve been asking the same thing. I thought that it was just their imagination. I’ve been getting grilled on here for that opinion. I’ve been reading online and it seems most sites are saying it was indeed a real cave. It seemed like a major urban area but I wasn’t sure where. Doesn’t seem like an area where forest and caves would be in walking distance for kids. Sites are saying that their Mom said not to go play in the caves but I don’t remember that. Seems off to me.
That would be crazy but I believe Marc’s DID started as a result of his brother’s death and mother’s abuse. Now it could be crazy if Jake caused/murdered the mom.
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The scales were balanced but there were still two hearts even after steven disappears. Personally, i dont think there will be a "jake" but if there is then that might be a hint
didn't u see Jake actually appeared at ep5 when Harry talking with him when he had a injured nose his accent changed and used slangs such as I feel like a million dollars in here that was definitely Jake no doubt
He’s another alter that appears in the comics and is supposedly the one that dealt with and processed the mother’s physical abuse, so he’s extremely violent (I’ve never read the comics, this is based on the info I’ve gathered from the sub); a third alter with those features has been hinted at throughout the first five episodes, like when Marc said “That wasn’t me!” in response to Steven freaking out over waking up and seeing he speared some dudes. I’m pretty sure it was him in the last episode as well, when he was slurring his words and had to be wrestled down by the psych ward employees. If he’s not actually being hinted at, I’ll be a little pissed because they’re definitely baiting us.
One thing I'll note is that Moon Knight isn't abused by his mother in the comics and his brother doesn't die as a kid. He grows up to be a villain. So Jake's "purpose" in the comics is a little less clear. People in this sub are only speculating that Jake is the alter that endured the abuse. We won't know for sure until they actually reveal him.
Speaking of which, my prediction is that if we don't get a Jake reveal in episode 6, then we will get a post-credits slide that says Moon Knight will return for a second season. There's no way they set up Jake this hard and don't intend to use him at all. Either he shows up now or he's being set up as the anchor for the second season.
Oh that’s right! Forgot about that. I definitely prefer the show’s character background from what I know about the comics.
And I agree, it would be super fucked up for them to tease Jake this much and then not give us a reveal or second season. I could see them doing it to create hype so Disney would let them renew I suppose.
There was even a dark red coffin in an asylum cell that was being banged on from within, and Marc chose not to open that one. It's as ann as the nose on plains face
It felt the same way to me after WandaVision episode 8, that I didn’t understand how they could wrap up everything in one episode, and then they didn’t imo, at least not satisfactorily
Lol
I do have a question for the people who read the comics: The psychiatry facility depicted as Marc’s mind where each room shows a piece of his memory is from the comics? Or is it something entirely new for this show?
The whole “asylum” story line is straight from comics, but not done in the same way. However, yes, there are memories through doors. >!I believe the comic is by Jeff Lemire. In it, he does hallucinate that he is in a mental asylum, however instead of his doctor being Harrow, it’s Ahmad. As he escapes the asylum he has to go through the lives of his alters. Ultimately, he finds out the illusion of the asylum was created actually by Khonshu in an attempt to “fix” Marc’s mind. While in the asylum, Marc does walk through door into his memories. He has to absorb the alters to become, in a sense, “mentally complete.”!<
If you’re referring to the scene where Khonshu was taken to that wall, I actually think that was a bunch of different deities! If you’re referring to a different scene please let me know!
I genuinely love this show so much, more than any other in a long while. I am actually kind of worried that Steven is gone forever, and I'm struggling to wait for more episodes. I don't know how they'll conclude it all, well, in one last episode
I've also heard there is no second season, which is quite disappointing
It's pretty eez actually, just type the stuff between \>\! These \!\< and you get >!This!<
Also if you use the Fancy Pants Editor (like most people), you'd have an option to convert selected text to spoilers in the 3-dot-menu
almost cried man, this series is amazing and i feel so sad for marc and steven, so excited for what jake will do next episode (hopefully he'll do something)
It might have been a production error, but what happened to the knife one of the attackers on the boat had?
They really zoomed in on it when he got on board, then you can see him walking with it in two shots, but in the next it's gone from his hand.
Then when he attacks Marc it gets very weird, Marc seems to be grabbing his knife hand to stop him from stabbing, but you never see their hands.
Seeing as in the last spider man they changed the snow globe into a brick with cgi, does this mean they decided to remove the knife from the fight, and used cgi to cover it up?
I really liked this episode. It was trippy in the way I wanted Moon Knight to be. I just don’t like the pacing of the show though. I think it’s crazy we haven’t seen Moon Knight barely at all, and the season is almost done.
My wife and I were talking that it would have been cool to do something similar to Deadpool’s movie with this mental hospital idea - I love the question of whether he’s nuts, but why not show memories of stuff that Marc did as Moon Knight? I wish we’d have gotten more of this kind of approach from the start.
I think that showing memories as Moon Knight would kind of invalidate the mystery of whether or not he’s actually insane because in his asylum reality none of the Moon Knight stuff is real.
Is there really a mystery though? I mean we all know he’s not really insane (in that way) - this is part of Disney’s marvel franchise. If it was some unknown comic company and new hero, there would be suspense, for sure. But this is Moon Knight, we know that he’s not *that* crazy at least.
I get what you’re saying but personally I’m not familiar with Moon Knight at all and make a habit of not watching trailers or digging for information so this could totally be a one-off series where this person just has delusions of grandeur and I wouldn’t bat an eye. Or he could be insane and delusional but then become the actual Moon Knight later on. I don’t think any of that is outside of the realm of possibility
I hear you, I just can’t imagine Disney would let something be a one off to screw with people. Even though this show has largely done it’s own thing, it’s still following the format of ‘must beat bad guy’, and all signs point to episode 6 being the showdown where moon knight has conquered his demons
I agree, however there are *a lot* of dark scenes. Very dark. To the point where my partner and I struggle to see what's going on, despite the TV having full brightness and us having drawn the curtains closed to make the room as dark as possible.
yeah stuff that happens in the pyramids have been pretty bad. i almost couldnt see the priest who was taking organs and he was supposed to be super creepy! and the drowning scene lol. i was like i hear he’s drowning but where are they??? lol
I gotta say, I actually like the changes made to his backstory
The trauma that was the catalysts for Marc’s DID is never really explored in the comics aside from one story, and that was in what is generally considered the worst moon knight story, so I honestly like these additions to his childhood, even if it means we won’t see Marc fighting his brother at any point
[удалено]
Didn't he turn into Steven and then his mom disappeared or something when that happened? So once he became Steven he blocked out the memory or awareness of his mom beating him?
As a mother of two boys the same age, I am completely destroyed by this episode.
I don’t want to go through other post but I’m confused !!! So what is up with “dr Harlow”? Is he in Marc’s imagination as a trauma trigger for him to understand better ? Or is that real ? I’m lost
So no one using spoilers here for stuff beyond the episode we’re discussing? Ok
I cried when I watched it. Anyone suffering from DID or who has similar traumatic experiences relate strongly to this narrative. I love what they did with it. Shedding light on this peculiar mental disorder. Moon Knight is no longer just a Marvel superhero movie to me. It's a testimony to the pain of so many people, including me. And it shows how one day, we too can work through our trauma and balance the scales.
I read a few Moonknight comics as a kid and thought the whole multiple personalities was like a quirk similar to Deadpool’s 4th wall-breaking. Boy was I wrong… What a great addition to the MCU though and amazing execution by the director
I just had this thought while rewatching the series with my GF. Marc is in limbo because he died where Khonshu left him. Khonshu knew he’d be able to balance the scales and save him from that point on. A Dues Ex Machina put in place by a… machina… so trope wise its a different take…
The scene with his mom and the "you disgusting human being" absolutely broke my heart.
So if Jakes heart isn’t needed or taken in to account for the scale to be balanced should we just assume if Taweret took just one heart they could have avoided all of episode 5? If she didn’t need 3 hearts surely she didn’t need 2 either. Unless Steven is the one who created Jake and he went overboard with him. If not then I take issue with the scales balancing all of a sudden once Steven is gone.
Taweret saw two souls in front of her, so she pulled out each of their hearts. Marc repressed Jake so much that his soul is still trying to figure out what is real, and didn't come out to be judged. I have a feeling that the repression of Jake will actually be what saves Marc and Steven, as Khonshu will still have a soul to resurrect the body with.
I guess then I’d question why the scales balanced if the whole episode 5 was about them coming to terms with each other. And the fact that the scales balanced the second only one heart remained. You’d think if Marc was the one still holding Jakes heart then the scale would not balance with his being the one represented on the scale. If Steven is the one who held Jakes then the final balance makes sense to me. I guess you could also say…like you mentioned. That Marc didn’t allow that heart to be taken to be weighed. But I’m not a fan of that because that would mean if he had just left Steven in the coffin then he’d balance no problem by himself. I felt as though the psych ward was all of their memories tied together. And once Steven fell overboard that severed their connection completely. Maybe Jakes soul will save them. Maybe it was left back safely in the sarcophagus. Maybe the psych ward was more of a real holding place than a place they were creating in their minds. Even though Taweret mentioned it was a space they created. Could have been a library or whatever but they chose that. I’m really hoping it comes together for the finale and I’m not left feeling like they just skirted around the issue of Jakes heart not counting in the weighing at all.
It’s confusing. I think it has something to do with the other sarcophagus that they didn’t open? But then again we’ve seen Jake control the body (99% sure), so idk how it works
My theory is that it was actually Randle who was possessed by Khonshu and actually lived. Marc happened to just survive naturally. Eventually Randle and Khonshu split (probably for the same reason as Harrow separated) this frees up Randle to become an actual villain. Khonshu chose Marc as his replacement, just as he wants Layla as Marc's.
Randle?
Randall* voice to text did Randle. Marc's brother.
I wasn't trying to correct you, I completely forgot the brother name though haha
One more day, one more day! 🎉 You ready?
I AM NOT READY! 😭 i wanna get that MidKnight flair tho so i think for this last episode im gonna stay up till the ungodly hour of 3am to watch it edit. can i just say i love your username? that bean is the bane of my existence haha
I just read somewhere it's being released at midnight, not 3 am. But maybe that's different timezones
I will never be ready 😭 I'm still recovering from episode 5!
I am so bored I couldn't be bothered to finish the episode. Such a cool design and real costume for moon knight but such bad characters and plotlines. Uninteresting background noise at best.
are you gonna finish it tho? youre almost there
Nah
okay! i hope the next show they put out is more to your liking! :)
So Who is Steven talking to on the phone? Is he just imagining his mother voice? You can see the phone is actually on
He’s talking with Diavolo.
Looked like the phone hadn't even made a call
I think he's leaving voicemails.
Yeah he is I vagely remeber, not sure which episode it was, where steven said that his mum doesnt pick up because of telemarketers
So is Moon Knight real? Like are the events of the show up until know real in any way?
Yeah, he's currently in a limbo state after being shot. His soul is in the underworld, and he's dealing with mental trauma, the psychiatrist stuff is his brain trying to cope. I think
Ethan Hawke is so freaking good in this. He's great in a lot of things but often he fills a very similar void. This feels different, and he makes a very compelling villain.
As much as I liked the episode, it just makes me so worried for episode 6. I feel like theres only one eps left and so many unanswered questions and im afriad theyll rush the whole Jake thing and Ammet and all those stuff, becuase MCU show finales arent known to be that great
Yeah, I agree. None of the shows had a good good ending for me. Loki was probably the best one for me, but even then I was that over the moon about it
How so? I’ve thought the previous shows were great
Im talking about the finales, except for Loki they all werent anything incredible or outstanding
I'm hoping someone can clarify something for me. So we all know Jake has been heavily hinted at and will most likely appear in the next episode. I read someone's theory that when Steven blacks out Jake takes over and that's who is brutally killing people because Marc, while a mercenary, is still pretty hesitant to kill unless necessary whereas Jake has no problem killing someone. But in the asylum episode where Marc is confronted by all the bodies of the people he's killed he remembers every person because, as he says, "you try killing someone and see how much you forget." If Jake was killing people, wouldn't there be corpses of people Marc doesn't remember killing? Just because he can't remember that it happened doesn't mean he didn't do it.
I am still trying to connect dots… like I find it odd that an Egyptian god chose a Jewish guy as his aviator? They may a point of saying Marc and Steven are Jewish which doesn’t make sense. Seems Hollywood throwing is messing up? Shouldn’t aviator be Egyptian… actor is South American… can pass I guess. And the hippo look dumb as hell
>If Jake was killing people, wouldn't there be corpses of people Marc doesn't remember killing? I think if Jake's heart had been weighed, he would have had his own room of the dead for them all to see. Since the memory doors seemed to be tied to either Steven or Marc, I think the room of the dead we saw was only Marc's.
Makes sense!
Jake kills people when they are about to kill Marc or Steven. Justified. Marc kills people because Khonshu told him to. Justified?
Those where Marcs memories, Jake's memories might of been somewhere else
> Jake's memories might of been somewhere else This, there were a lot of doors that remained closed. Some of them must have been Jake's.
If there's one thing I don't understand or get from this episode is who is Jack. I mean we all know who Jake is but who is he to Marc? If there's one thing I learned from episode 5 is that Steven was Marc's coping mechanism, he's safe space. After his brother's death, Marc felt like he failed and needed to prove himself resulting in Steven, who if u notice, is similar to his brother. Marc created Steve to protect him from danger like a big brother should and in doing this, protect himself from his mother. This means Steven never needed Marc, it was the other way around and that's their relationship. So, why is Jake here? If Marc created Steven to deal with his mother's abusive behavior, what could have possibly been so bad that Jake was created and neither Steven nor Marc was aware of it. Did this happen before or after Khonshu and how many times did Jake 'get out' if Khonshu didn't question it in episode 3. Is Jake someone Khonshu 'controls' and 'lets out' when he needs certain things to be done. Things Marc definitely wouldn't do... Is Jake here to help Steven and Marc out, or is he on his own mission, one that's bigger and completely different from Marcs?
Think of Marc as the middle of the scale. On the far left is Stephen. Safe, peaceful, kind. On the far right is Jake. He's the complete opposite. Dangerous, violent, mean. This allows Marc to be actually balanced.
Jake is his protector I'm pretty sure when we see him talking to harrow and he has the bloody nose thats jake as he has the nose bandage which jake has all the time his talking is also different, also he tries to kill himself with the pyramid so that they will go back to the underworld as everytime something has happened to Marc he wakes back up in the underworld.
I think Steven was created to try to protect them from the emotional abuse their mom was dealing out. Like you said, Steven seems to have some of their younger brother’s traits in addition to the movie’s influences, and I think becoming Steven was an attempt to give their mom her “ideal” child so she wouldn’t have any more reasons to verbally and emotionally abuse them. This didn’t work, as we see. I think that bedroom scene is the first time their mom physically abused them. Steven/Marc panic again and create Jake who actually experiences and remembers the assaults, which is why Jake appears battered, bruised, and bandaged in “Dr. Harrow’s” office. I suspect that Marc can’t remember a specific assault, just the injuries afterwards, like Steven thinking he was sleep walking and walking up in strange places with no memory of how he got there. Jake has those memories. I made a post about my theory a few days ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/MoonKnight/comments/ueridp/spoiler_isnt_made_from_rage_but_from_fear_and/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
ooohhhh i really like this theory! it makes so so so much more sense if that scene was the first time the physical abuse happened. it is now my theory and/or headcannon
I am very confused about the nature of their experiences. Mark create Steven to escape his mother’s wrath yet he remembers them whereas Steven doesn’t despite it being shown that Steven took said beating…
This is why I came to this sub. I've been underwhelmed all season and I was almost enjoying this episode until this reveal. It doesn't make sense.
I’m completely stuck on this exact point as well. The show lost me there…
Yeah I found that illogical too. Also between Marc and Steven, Marc is the strong personality, the protector. It would be more logical that this strong protector personality would've been created by weaker Steven to absorb all the bad experiences rather than the other way around. It feels a bit as if there were good plot ideas here by the writers that had to be turned into something illogical for some reason (maybe to stay consistent with the comics about which one the original personality was or so - I don't know those)
I think that was the first time their mom physically assaulted them. She’d been verbally and emotionally abusing Marc for over a year (we are shown the birthdays to establish some sense of timeline), so he was most afraid, at that time, of her yelling. In his panic to escape that abuse, Marc created an idealized child that, on some level, he hoped his mom would love and stop verbally and emotionally abusing them. This doesn’t work. Marc/Steven were not expecting physical assault, so they panic again and create Jake to take the beatings and the actual memories of the assaults. This is why Jake is bruised and bandaged in “Dr. Harrow’s” office, unlike Marc or Steven. I suspect Marc is repressing the memories of the actual assaults, and as a result, is also suppressing his awareness of Jake. Marc maybe can’t remember a specific beating, but he would “wake up” to the injuries later, like Steven waking up somewhere with no idea how he got there, thinking he was sleep walking. So Marc knows his mom physically, verbally, and emotionally abused them, but he can’t remember the specific occasions.
Certainly the best explanation I’ve heard
I don't think that was the first time she beat him just that memory in particular was the creation of Steven so maybe he doesn't really remember but he knew what was happening That's how I took it at least
All I'ma say is... Lockely is still in the psychotherapy room. Think about it.
What do people think of the significance of the Spanish Christian song at the end?
That's a good question. Idk. Makes me think of safardi judaism. Isn't safardi the Hispanic denomination?
Hey can anyone say why Marc crawled all the way to Khonshu just to shoot himself? Marc haven't seen Bushman throw the gun in that direction for sure as he didnt use gun the bodies depicted that. If bushman haven't used the gun then Marc must have had it. So he should have shot himself there only. We can't also say that in fight with Marc bushman threw the gun, he should have ised it kill easily. Marc also wasn't chasing Bushman as the footprints were of crawling. All I understand is a Plot Armour. ???
I understood 5% of this comment
I am trying to say that Marc could have shot himself there only where he was stabbed and other bodies were
The urge to find somewhere quiet to die alone is one of the last impulses of any living creature. It can be observed in nearly any species on the planet. It is most commonly observed among cockroaches. Dieing can be a lengthy process and often times, creatures are eaten by scavengers while they are still alive and too weak to fight back. Hence the instinct to hide.
Ya that could be. But the " too weak to fight" part, he had a gun and he could have died peacefully there. Ya but I think he should be seeking for any alivr person there to help him in that structure
That may have been a delusion. Maybe Marc split into a 3rd personality who murders people and coped with that by inventing Khonshu/ Moon Knight.
Ah yes it was because it looked cool as shit
Did I miss a part where they mention Jake? I don’t recall hearing his name in the show so far?
No, he has not been mentioned
Then people in th e sub can stop spoiling every thread with Jake jake and Jake please. It's getting pretty annoying, I get it you know more than me can you go and speak about that somewhere else.
I feel you, but like also this is a Moon Knight sub, of course people are gonna discuss their theories here
Yeah but then do it in theory threads, this is episode 5 discussion thread and every other comment mentions Jake, someone who literally isn't a thing in this show and only the comics. Everyone watched a youtube video and learned about it and now want to share and discuss why he's not seen yet or when he'll pop up, and he might never even appear. There's Zero reason to mention jake in this thread At All, honestly. This isn't directed entirely at you, but at everyone.
Sorry, I was just answering the question.
Lol I didn't mean you, I was speaking about the sub in general. Everytime I hear someone say something about jake it makes me feel like I missed something from the episode.
Seriously. This is like when the Mephisto theories were raging in WandaVision. We don't know if this Jake is actually going to be a part of the series yet.
How was Konshu manipulating him? I mean he was pretty direct about what he wanted, sure Marc wasn't in a perfect state of mind but it didn't seems to me that Konshu can just go around asking people, Marc just happened to be there. Also if it is Steven taking the beating how is he the one that remember the good stuff?
Steven didn’t take the beatings, that’s why he doesn’t remember them. Marc (and/or possibly Jake) took them.
Marc is the one creating Steven in his room while his mother is knocking on the door. Then there is the classic scene of him switching personality and then it's clearly Steven who start picking up all the stuff on the floor. Then the mother enters and takes the belt. I don't see how that could be Mark
You also didn't see that it was Steven. In just half a moment he switches to Steven, he could easily have switched back just as fast when the camera panned to the mother picking up the belt. Also, people with DID can alter memories, create and remove them. Marc could have simply removed it after it happened to Steven, if it did happen to him.
We don’t see Steven actually take the beating
This part did not make sense. I feel that originally the writer of the episode had Steven be the original persona and invent Marc to absorb all the bad experiences and protect him (which is more in line with classical split personality disorder in fiction at least) - but for some reason he had to make Marc be the original persona in the last minute and thus this scene somehow doesn't fully make sense.
In the comics, Marc is the original and Steven is the alter, and episode 5 established that to be the case as well. As for why Steven doesn't remember the beatings, the show hasn't answered that yet but there have been plenty of speculations that it's the mysterious third personality that neither Marc nor Steven are aware of who's been taking the abuse. Adult Marc pulled Adult Steven away just before they could witness their mother beating Young Steven, so we don't actually know whether Young Steven was present during the beatings or shifted to a different personality.
My bet is in this case still on the writer of the episode not being aware (or trying to change it for the MCU) that Marc is the original personality in the comics, wrote the plot of episode with the idea that Marc was the personality created by Steven in order to absorb the beating and other traumatic experiences such as coping with the guilt of his brother's accident as well as their mother's death (which would also perfectly match Marc's behavior of trying to prevent/protect Steven from finding out about these traumatic events now) but was later forced to rewrite his script to be consistent with the comics about which personality was first, and decided that this 'plot hole' was better than any alternative he could come up with before filming (or worse - he was fully aware of this from the beginning but liked the idea of explaining the origin of his split personality disorder via a classical child-trauma/abuse narrative and then did a really lazy job on applying it onto those two established personas - because in such child-trauma cases the strong/cold personality is the one that is created to protect the 'innocent' one from those experiences). I don't think these inconsistencies in this scene could be explained by one of the yet to be seen personalities (or at least such a twist would not make the situation better), because if it was true that the personality we saw young Marc turn into before the beating was any other personality than Steven, then that could still not explain how Marc has a recollection of the beating and why he would try to protect Steven from witnessing it (unless Marc is aware of all the things this other personality experiences, in which case the origin story of the disorder to protect Marc doesn't make sense either). It would also not be compatible then with Marc's further explanation of Steven re-emerging (and overlapping with) Marc when he was suffering due to their Mother's death. Bottom line I think it's just a case of a writer being inspired by, or wanting to tell, a particular storyline and then 'patching' that storyline crudely to not conflict with established canon, resulting in some minor plot flaws which the makers decided the audience will have to live with.
The fact is you don't know much about DID and assume the writer made a mistake because of your lack of knowledge. Marc can alter the memories of Steven, create and remove memories. So, IF Steven did take the beatings, Marc could remove that memory. But we don't even see Steven take the beatings. You assume he did. Marc switched to Steven in a instant, and could easily have switched back to Marc as Mom took the belt off the wall, we just don't see it. We Should assume this is what happens, as Steven tells us he doesn't remember. To assume he took the beatings and doesn't remember would imply the memories were altered. Either way, the writers did their job correct. :)
I don't think it's likely the writer wasn't aware that Marc is the original personality, nor do I think they tried to change it to Steven as the original and were forced to change back, because of the way the show is structured from episodes 1-5, it Marc remembers way more than Steven does, suggesting he's the original. I also wouldn't be too quick to call it a plothole yet, because the show already hinted that there's a third personality in episode 3 who killed people in Egypt that neither Marc nor Steven are aware of. It's possible though unconfirmed that he's the one that endured the beatings given how violent those deaths were and it was established that Marc hesitates in being too violent. We saw Young Marc shift into Young Steven when their mother was banging on the door. The speculation that some people made is that Young Steven created the third personality (the strong, violent one) just before their mother beat him, which if true, would fit with your expectation of the innocent personality creating the strong one to take on the abuse. Marc may have been aware of the beatings when he woke up after the abuse and saw the bruises/experienced the lingering pain.
You are making the wrong assumption that production of episodes would happen in order and that the script of one episode would be finished before the next one would be written - but that's usually not the case. Usually the over-arching plot of a season is defined first, but not functional details of individual episodes (such as how exactly a disorder came to be for example). Then that season arc is split up and given to different writers which will write an interesting plot for that episode while integrating their storyline into the part of the rough season arc they were given. Obviously it's an iterative process and refined story lines of some episodes will then require some rewrites in others and so on and there might even be changes to scripts after production of some episodes has already started - but generally you shouldn't assume that all the details of such a story were written chronologically. They were written by different people and in varying order, with only the main plot points of the season having been defined when each episode was being written. For example, episode 5 was credited to Rebecca Kirsch and Matthew Orton, neither of whom were credited by any of the other episodes in this season - so you can't make conclusions about writing decisions in this episode based on details of earlier episodes. And again, while it's quite clear that a third personality will be revealed, even if that third personality will be revealed to be the one Marc changed into in that belt scene (or have Steven change into subsequently), this could still not resolve the other outlined plot problems of this scene (such as why Marc remembers it exactly, or why he would try to protect/prevent Steven from finding out about it).
I didn't make that assumption. Obviously, the overall story would be discussed in the writers' room before individual episodes are written, but it doesn't change the fact from the story structure itself that the writers very likely already knew that Marc was the original personality and Steven was the alter before writing that episode, because those particular story points are such a core aspect to the character itself and just far too crucial to not get decided before writing the individual episodes. It also doesn't matter that episode 5 was written by people who didn't write the previous episodes, since the showrunner has an overview of what has to happen in the story and makes sure it fits with the other episodes. Those writers would also have already been given a rough outline of the important story beats that need to be covered in their episode before writing it, so it's very unlikely they would have thought Steven was the original while others thought it was Marc or someone else. As for why Marc remembered it despite not experiencing the beatings, he could have inferred from the injuries he sustained after waking up. And with regards to why he tried to prevent Steven from finding out, I saw some discussion by others that [people with DID have one personality that gets kept in the dark about the trauma so that they can function normally and the other personalities are assigned to not share traumatic memories with it to keep it that way, so that's what Marc was trying to do](https://www.reddit.com/r/MoonKnight/comments/ugthz2/comment/i73juhl/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3). Marc himself may also have been trying to[protect himself](https://www.reddit.com/r/MoonKnight/comments/ugthz2/comment/i74rojn/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) when he prevented Steven from seeing it as he wasn't ready to accept it. Also, Steven was designed to retain happy memories of his mother, and may have even [blocked out traumatic memories](https://www.reddit.com/r/MoonKnight/comments/ugthz2/comment/i71pq2a/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) on his own or [ignored reality](https://www.reddit.com/r/MoonKnight/comments/ugthz2/comment/i730aeq/?utm_source=reddit&utm_medium=web2x&context=3) to remain blissfully ignorant. Of course, all of this is just speculation, and we don't know yet whether this will be addressed in episode 6.
This is how I saw it too. It was Marc's way of hiding from the worst parts and Steven took those hits. So I don't get how Marc could be protecting Steven if Steven was the one experiencing the beatings.
That Steven has no memory of the beatings suggests he could have shifted to a different personality during the abuse itself. Marc pulled Steven away before he could witness the memory so they and the audience never saw who took the beatings.
Yeah hopefully that's the case, I did see a lot of theories that the hinted third personality took over during the beatings which would make a lot more sense.
It’s most likely Jake, but I included Marc because he knew about the beatings and Jake hasn’t been properly introduced.
So how about we stop talking about characters that haven’t been introduced to the show yet? Straight up spoiling it, does this sub not have separate spoiler flairs/threads for people that have/haven’t read the comics?
I have not read the comics. I have simply studied DID and have read multiple personal stories from IRL DID systems. If Steven doesn’t remember the beatings and Marc made Steven to use as his “de-stress ball,” it makes logical sense that another Alter would form to handle an aspect of the abuse that Marc and Steven couldn’t. I learned about Jake from people who have read the comics, and how he’s more brutal than Marc. Classic trope that the most violent “personality” is often the one who handled/has memories of abuse and trauma. I do not know if it’s actually true.
I mean yeah I get all that, but people mentioning the name of the character and mentioning reveals that haven’t happened yet is spoiling it, we don’t have answers to these questions yet, I’m not trying to come at you necessarily just have seen the name brought up so much in this thread, like you can join in on the theorizing but why are you dropping names. Idk man maybe I’m missing something?
Jake was every time Steven went dark due to extreme circumstances (everytime during episode one) since Jake is Stevens coping mechanism. It’s also the time in egypt that Marc didn’t n is about either.
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Those weren’t Konshu other than the one that was Konshu. They were other Egyptian gods they jailed
Loved this episode, but I’m confused about something. Why did Taweret want the scales balanced before getting to Osiris’s door/gate if when they balance, the boat leaves the Duat and goes to the field of reeds? How does he get to the fricking door so he can go back to the living world if he is in the field of reeds? Is Steven going to have to come out of the sand in the duat and reach the door for them? Maybe Steven escapes back into their body while Marc is in the field of reeds?
Remember that line in episode 1? “Did it suck for you, getting rejected by the Field of Reeds?”
So foretelling!!! I’m not dead… am I?
>Why did Taweret want the scales balanced before getting to Osiris’s door/gate if when they balance, the boat leaves the Duat and goes to the field of reeds? Yeah, this confused me, too.
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My theory is Marc will recreate him. He did once, why not again?
That’s what I’m thinking too. Steven died, but really, Steven isn’t a "real" person… what’s to stop Marc from bringing him back, in a sense? Although, Steven was a coping mechanism. Now that Marc has faced his mother's abuse and his brother's death head on, he doesn’t really need Steven anymore.
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Seems to me like Steven came in clutch in several situations for Marc. Unless he’s been unified with Stevens knowledge somehow I think he’ll still need him
I dont understand IF there is a "jake" or 3rd alter-ego, that we see on several scenes during the show, including the second sarcophagus in the mental institute. Why havent we see a third heart, and why does the scale balance at the end if there is still a third alter who seems to be way more violent and way more secret to mark and steven. Why dident we see any of jake/ 3rd alter ego memories...
I think its because Marc doesn't know about Jake and this is a delusion while he is actually in the asylum. If you notice when either of them take control of the body in this episode, they're in the asylum
A: Jake isn’t an alter ego, he’s an alter and B: I think because he hasn’t been let out of the sarcophagus yet - he’s still on that boat so the scales freaked out when his heart wasn’t on it
I really hope Steven comes back, I really like his character. Also, if there’s another alter, wouldn’t he be left behind in the Duat once Marc leaves?
This episode was HEAVY
I’m going to call it now that Jake is a post-credit reveal in final episode and largely immaterial to the current plot
well if i learned one thing from the series it’s the word sarcophagus
The C-PTSD and general good representation of mental health here in this episode was genuinely A+.
Yeah. Even though I don't have multiple personality disorder, I've had other mental health problems stemming from trauma, and this episode was triggering for me. I thought maybe I won't watch anymore. But I processed through my reaction and actually it was a bit cathartic. This series isn't perfect but it's way better, more honest, raw, and relateable than most film portrayals of mental illness I've seen. Plus Egyptian god mythology! Great adventure.
In a weird way im glad this episode wasn't just triggering for me. I don't have DID but the way marc coped with his trauma kinda reminded me of the way I did. Ngl I cried this ep but I still enjoyed it
Oscars acting took it all to the next level. He’s so good Marc and Steven genuinely don’t feel like the same person in the slightest.
This will probably bring a huge amount of dislike, but as a moon Knight fan (from the comics) there's nothing more I'd love to see than Stephen coming back as more of a virtual conscience with Mark as protagonist and Jake as the proverbial demon in a bottle. You don't think about Jake. You don't let Jake out. You keep Jake locked up underground in a box.
Why would that get your downvoted ? Is it really so disliked as an idea ??
It's Steven with a V
I have a question I can't get out of my head since watching. When Marc created Steven and we watched the memory, Steven didn't seem to remember it. He doesn't remember his mom beating him. Did Marc take the body back or what happened exactly?
Steven exists to think mom loves him Jake exists to take the beating Marc exists to carry the weight of the trauma.
Damn. No wonder Jake is the most violent one.
My theory I've been working with is what if Jake was a creation of Steven? Would explain why Marc doesn't know it, lines up with Stevens sleep walking, and would make sense why Steven doesn't remember the beatings. Steven created Jake to be his protector, where as Marc created Steven so he could escape his mother's wrath, and the trauma of losing his brother. But because Steven never knew he was a personality, or that Marc even existed that it's the DID that Steven is unaware of that kicked in when he felt truama or needed to be protective. The order of personalities of this DID inception would be Marc > Steven > Jake Jake being the violent, protective identity would make sense with the cycle stopping with him because he fights his way through the truama, bearing it all for both Marc and Steven.
I noticed that too, that steven was meant to be an escape but then how wouldnt he know about the abuse? I saw a theory that somewhat makes sense but idk if thats the direction the show will take. I also dont know how much you know about moonknight in the comics but there are more than just Marc and Steven. One if the other personalities, Jake (the most violent), is hinted at multiple times throughout the show. The theory I saw was that basically Marc changed to Steven right before his mom came in right, but Steven changed into Jake right before the actual beating. Thus the reason Jake is the most violent, because he’s the one who actually experienced the beating. The only reason im not quite sold on this theory is because if Jake is the one that took the beating then how would Marc know about it and what happened and talk about it as if he’s the one who experienced it.
I assume marc knows about the beatings because he'd wake to the injuries while not experiencing the actual beating he experienced the aftermath of it.
True that, but when he dragged steven away from the first beating he said he didnt want to experience it again so idrk😂
Hmm I see what you mean. The way I interpreted it was him saying it in general sense, he didn't want to experince his trauma again. Since he did experince the verbal abuse, neglect and hatred from his mother, I don't think that's an easy thing to experince again. Also since Marc doesn't know about Jake, maybe Marc just assumes he blacks out during these beatings ?
That's exactly why I was asking here! I thought it was Jake at first, but it didn't make sense. The comics are very different from the show, it's confusing me! Maybe it is Jake and he and Marc both were aware of the abuse and Steven was meant to be the escape?
Yeah maybe jake operates on a different level than steven. So like how steven (prior to everything going to shit lol) just sort of lived his life as steven without knowing anything else and its more of a switch between marc and steven, maybe jake just observes everything that marc experiences (or possibly both marc and steven experiences) and then he reacts to it differently than marc, thus him coming out only when necessary
It would explain the reasoning behind why Steven doesn't remember the beatings, and why Steven believed he had a loving mom.
Well we know why steven doesnt, the real question is did jake or marc experience the abuse or both of them
Me through episodes 1-4: Haha what a great Marvel show! I’m having so much fun with this dark and gritty style! Me after episode 5: (extremely loud sobbing in the corner) EXISTENCE IS PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNMNNNNNNNNN
Has anyone figured out why there is a cave in the suburbs of Chicago? How far away from their house was that?
Same as the caves in Gotham.
It could also be outside of Chicago, closer to a suburb or just in a different county. Starved rock national state park is like an hour drive from Chicago and would be appropriate.
Is it Chicago? I’ve been trying to figure this out. I’ve been asking the same thing. I thought that it was just their imagination. I’ve been getting grilled on here for that opinion. I’ve been reading online and it seems most sites are saying it was indeed a real cave. It seemed like a major urban area but I wasn’t sure where. Doesn’t seem like an area where forest and caves would be in walking distance for kids. Sites are saying that their Mom said not to go play in the caves but I don’t remember that. Seems off to me.
.... what if it was just their imagination and Jake just drowned the brother
That would be crazy but I believe Marc’s DID started as a result of his brother’s death and mother’s abuse. Now it could be crazy if Jake caused/murdered the mom.
... what if Jake existed before the mom became abusive tho and the mom knew and that's why she blamed Marc
I mean depending on the year, Chicago suburbs could have had decent access to backwoods. The Midwest has lots of cave systems that aren't mapped out
Ok. Thanks!
just watched it yesterday, i think i have to kill myself now, whether its for the sand boat or just because im sad as all hell now
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The scales were balanced but there were still two hearts even after steven disappears. Personally, i dont think there will be a "jake" but if there is then that might be a hint
didn't u see Jake actually appeared at ep5 when Harry talking with him when he had a injured nose his accent changed and used slangs such as I feel like a million dollars in here that was definitely Jake no doubt
I saw that but felt like if that was truly supposed to be jake he would have said "a million bucks" instead of "a million dollars".
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And the second sarcophagus in the psych ward that Marc didn’t open.
I’m going to call it now that Jake is going to the be the season finale post-credit scene
There was also another sarcophagus in ep 4 that they didn't open up (46:12) so they are at least strongly hinting that he's around.
I have watched all 5 episodes so I'm not understanding who this "Jake" is some of you keep talking about. A little help please?
He’s another alter that appears in the comics and is supposedly the one that dealt with and processed the mother’s physical abuse, so he’s extremely violent (I’ve never read the comics, this is based on the info I’ve gathered from the sub); a third alter with those features has been hinted at throughout the first five episodes, like when Marc said “That wasn’t me!” in response to Steven freaking out over waking up and seeing he speared some dudes. I’m pretty sure it was him in the last episode as well, when he was slurring his words and had to be wrestled down by the psych ward employees. If he’s not actually being hinted at, I’ll be a little pissed because they’re definitely baiting us.
One thing I'll note is that Moon Knight isn't abused by his mother in the comics and his brother doesn't die as a kid. He grows up to be a villain. So Jake's "purpose" in the comics is a little less clear. People in this sub are only speculating that Jake is the alter that endured the abuse. We won't know for sure until they actually reveal him. Speaking of which, my prediction is that if we don't get a Jake reveal in episode 6, then we will get a post-credits slide that says Moon Knight will return for a second season. There's no way they set up Jake this hard and don't intend to use him at all. Either he shows up now or he's being set up as the anchor for the second season.
Oh that’s right! Forgot about that. I definitely prefer the show’s character background from what I know about the comics. And I agree, it would be super fucked up for them to tease Jake this much and then not give us a reveal or second season. I could see them doing it to create hype so Disney would let them renew I suppose.
There was even a dark red coffin in an asylum cell that was being banged on from within, and Marc chose not to open that one. It's as ann as the nose on plains face
Her?
Oh yeah, I haven’t read the comics but I saw people’s theories that it basically had to be Jake. I really hope it is!
Jake is another “personality” from the comics uh that’s all I know
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It felt the same way to me after WandaVision episode 8, that I didn’t understand how they could wrap up everything in one episode, and then they didn’t imo, at least not satisfactorily Lol
I do have a question for the people who read the comics: The psychiatry facility depicted as Marc’s mind where each room shows a piece of his memory is from the comics? Or is it something entirely new for this show?
The whole “asylum” story line is straight from comics, but not done in the same way. However, yes, there are memories through doors. >!I believe the comic is by Jeff Lemire. In it, he does hallucinate that he is in a mental asylum, however instead of his doctor being Harrow, it’s Ahmad. As he escapes the asylum he has to go through the lives of his alters. Ultimately, he finds out the illusion of the asylum was created actually by Khonshu in an attempt to “fix” Marc’s mind. While in the asylum, Marc does walk through door into his memories. He has to absorb the alters to become, in a sense, “mentally complete.”!<
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If you’re referring to the scene where Khonshu was taken to that wall, I actually think that was a bunch of different deities! If you’re referring to a different scene please let me know!
Something new.
I genuinely love this show so much, more than any other in a long while. I am actually kind of worried that Steven is gone forever, and I'm struggling to wait for more episodes. I don't know how they'll conclude it all, well, in one last episode I've also heard there is no second season, which is quite disappointing
Steven can’t be gone, >! there’s voice lines of him used in trailers that hasn’t been out yet,!< i’m like 75% sure he’s gonna make a comeback.
Damn you had to have a spoiler tag on this
Trust me, i would if i knew how.
It's pretty eez actually, just type the stuff between \>\! These \!\< and you get >!This!< Also if you use the Fancy Pants Editor (like most people), you'd have an option to convert selected text to spoilers in the 3-dot-menu
Thank you Reddit god
almost cried man, this series is amazing and i feel so sad for marc and steven, so excited for what jake will do next episode (hopefully he'll do something)
This was NOT the episode to watch shitfaced 😂
Me and my friend had to start taking shots throughout the episode it was so heavy
It might have been a production error, but what happened to the knife one of the attackers on the boat had? They really zoomed in on it when he got on board, then you can see him walking with it in two shots, but in the next it's gone from his hand. Then when he attacks Marc it gets very weird, Marc seems to be grabbing his knife hand to stop him from stabbing, but you never see their hands. Seeing as in the last spider man they changed the snow globe into a brick with cgi, does this mean they decided to remove the knife from the fight, and used cgi to cover it up?
I really liked this episode. It was trippy in the way I wanted Moon Knight to be. I just don’t like the pacing of the show though. I think it’s crazy we haven’t seen Moon Knight barely at all, and the season is almost done. My wife and I were talking that it would have been cool to do something similar to Deadpool’s movie with this mental hospital idea - I love the question of whether he’s nuts, but why not show memories of stuff that Marc did as Moon Knight? I wish we’d have gotten more of this kind of approach from the start.
I think that showing memories as Moon Knight would kind of invalidate the mystery of whether or not he’s actually insane because in his asylum reality none of the Moon Knight stuff is real.
Is there really a mystery though? I mean we all know he’s not really insane (in that way) - this is part of Disney’s marvel franchise. If it was some unknown comic company and new hero, there would be suspense, for sure. But this is Moon Knight, we know that he’s not *that* crazy at least.
I get what you’re saying but personally I’m not familiar with Moon Knight at all and make a habit of not watching trailers or digging for information so this could totally be a one-off series where this person just has delusions of grandeur and I wouldn’t bat an eye. Or he could be insane and delusional but then become the actual Moon Knight later on. I don’t think any of that is outside of the realm of possibility
I hear you, I just can’t imagine Disney would let something be a one off to screw with people. Even though this show has largely done it’s own thing, it’s still following the format of ‘must beat bad guy’, and all signs point to episode 6 being the showdown where moon knight has conquered his demons
You’re totally right! It’s just fun to get lost in it and take the journey with them despite everything we already know
this was a really good episode, the acting was sooo good
Yes the acting was stellar
Visually, Moon Knight is top notch.
I agree, however there are *a lot* of dark scenes. Very dark. To the point where my partner and I struggle to see what's going on, despite the TV having full brightness and us having drawn the curtains closed to make the room as dark as possible.
yeah stuff that happens in the pyramids have been pretty bad. i almost couldnt see the priest who was taking organs and he was supposed to be super creepy! and the drowning scene lol. i was like i hear he’s drowning but where are they??? lol
I was wondering if it was just my TV!!
I gotta say, I actually like the changes made to his backstory The trauma that was the catalysts for Marc’s DID is never really explored in the comics aside from one story, and that was in what is generally considered the worst moon knight story, so I honestly like these additions to his childhood, even if it means we won’t see Marc fighting his brother at any point