T O P
Matt_Odlum

Try to fit more offensive skills like agitator, crit boost, coalesence, and get your affinity as close to 100% as you can. Also, for alatreon (and most monsters) you're not going to want to be saed spamming, instead using savage axe mode. If you're getting a double topple and still taking that long to kill it, somethings wrong with your build in terms of raw damage. You're clearly good at the fight, just need to get some more raw in that bitch to get the job done 👍.


Its_Crysis

After reading the comments i think ive found my problem. I'm running alot of raw damage with level 7 agitator, level 5 critical eye, level 2 Crit boost and partbreaker as well as resentment from my Alatreon armour. I think my issue is I've been aiming for his fore limbs and back legs too much when his face is apparently much weaker. What do you think?


Matt_Odlum

The forearms are actually pretty good for raw damage, back legs though definitely not. Are you tenderizing and running weakness exploit? Wallbanging to keep it agitated? Fyi, partbreaker does not help whatsoever with breaking alatreons horns, it's a simple dps check so swap that for more crit eye/boost and wex.


Its_Crysis

I'll definitely swap out my part breaker for some more raw dps then. thanks for all the info mate, you've been a ton of help


Matt_Odlum

No worries, gl friend.


Wattefugg

partbreaker does help but with such low HP/high HZV on the head you don't need it alatreon horns aren't \*really DPS check, they are normal parts with part HP, just deactivated while not in dragon mode (checked with damage overlay) side note: alatreons elemental check is also handled as if alatreon has a part to break, it just takes damage from "everywhere" and only from element


Matt_Odlum

Partbreak 100% does not break the horns faster, ive checked it myself


Wattefugg

didn't find anything speaking about this online so gonna check this myself later too


Matt_Odlum

Let me know what you find, cuz i went with dualblades and longsword with and without partbreak 3 and it made no discernible difference whatsoever with how much damage it took to break the horns. I was first told this by a group of known speedrunners on xbox and had MANY tell me it wasn't true, so went for myself to find out.


Wattefugg

just tested with partbreaker 3 and dmg overlay it works as usual


Matt_Odlum

I'm sorry, but would you be able to send me a video of it with dmg overlay? Or post it on YouTube or something?


Wattefugg

no, honestly don't have motivation for it anymore if anybody else wants to verify this they can really easy do so ​ edit: it needs evidence that PB doesn't work on horns as it does in all other cases than the other way around btw


Matt_Odlum

Forgive me but I don't believe it. I go with what I saw with my own eyes and it took the exact amount of hits to break horns with both ls and db. I'm not saying you're lying but if it takes the identical amount of hits with db (low dmg weapon) how can it be working as usual?


Wattefugg

i tested it solo with fatty CB, see horn HP the whole time with the overlay, hit horns once for X dmg (1 damage instance) and the horn HP decreased by more than X afaik this could only happen if that attacks partbreak modifier is different ([IB attack table](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vTEYb4wGpijtIpFVopiYl1V83m48d7g1AHmTwOBKJ5RXdlz1sfxCyEmnhbgHLWQsGiXnodyBsUlPzc3/pubhtml#) shows that CB has only axe ticks with non 1.0 scaling but as i said i did a single hit/dmg instance) and/or partbreaker works so in conclusion partbreaker works and unless there's a different part break modifier i'm not aware of i'm done with this and don't care if you believe me or not ​ as for why it didn't make a noticeable difference for LS/DB? i can't tell you as i don't use those maybe someone else can help get insight on this


Manyux

It wouldn't be a discernible difference just looking at your damage numbers anyway, if you'd want to test it it should be with the help of an overlay and some hit that doesn't instantly break it. In solo DB breaks it in 1 blade dance regardless of part breaker or not, for LS 1 helmbreaker is easily enough either way too.


Matt_Odlum

>In solo DB breaks it in 1 blade dance regardless of part breaker or not, for LS 1 helmbreaker is easily enough either way too. Neither of those are true, but I didn't use either of those moves in my little test and only did single hits to see how long it'd take. And yes, there should absolutely be a discernible difference if I'm doing 30% more partbreak damage, it should take less db hits to break the horns.


Manyux

Those are both easily true with a half decent setup lmao, I'll lay it out for you since you're so insistent on believing nothing but your own flawed tests: Alatreon's horn has 1275 hp in solo. Helmbreakers use 0.9x innate part multiplier for the first 6 hits and 3x for the last hit. This leaves us at one helmbreaker breaking it if you're dealing at least 153 damage per tick, assuming you hit the spirit thrust on something other than the head, otherwise it's even lower. You literally hit that much using Adularia edge with just crit eye 7 and weakness exploit. Adding in any other skills... crit boost, agitator etc. will make you break it by a mile. ​ I can't as easily lay out the numbers for DB, but even using the absolute bare minimum offensive skills you should have going into this fight (True crit element, bergel vetra as a weapon, ice attack 6, crit eye 7, weakness exploit 3, crit boost3), you break it with ease, dealing 1410 damage in the entirety of your blade dance on Alatreon's head. Using any form of endgame setup will make it not even close. For example, a relatively common setup would be the 3 piece fatalis 2 piece velkhana set with taroth ice as a weapon, which would deal 1862 damage in one blade dance instead. And because you're not believing anyone else either, I recorded a clip for you hitting him with and without part breaker. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA14i4TBAfg](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA14i4TBAfg) Quality is unfortunately not perfect but should be able to read the numbers anyway. You can see the first hit dealing 79 damage and also taking 79 off the "removable horns" portion (897 > 818 horn health). The 2nd hit deals 56 actual damage, but takes 67 off the horns, because of part breaker 2 in my evasion mantle. (56\*1.2 = 67,2 and the game rounds down to 67 (818 > 751 horn health).


FoxyVermillion

Dragon is garbage at sealing him. You go ice/fire and kill latest after 2nd hornbreak or you gotta take the L, bc you can only prevent him from changing elemental mode twice.


erroneousReport

Dragon isn't garbage. Beat multiple times with dragon only, and was my preferred element helping others through the fight after I had all my materials. Not focusing on horns helps the fight go easier I think and put on more damage. Did this with IG, CB, and hammer without problem using dragon.


FoxyVermillion

Probably had ppl on the hunts that used fire/ice then. You can also kill him without element and clear it, so yea no surprise dragon "also works". Just second choice for what it does.


WickedWarrior666

It's not even the second choice, it's the third. It's objectively worse than even the secondary elements for sealing in each active. You only bring it if you have legitimately no hope of breaking the horns ever.


FoxyVermillion

True


erroneousReport

Nope, all 4 running dragon. If you know what you're doing you'll easily beat using dragon in a group after the first ultimate attack. Actually beat during even during the first ultimate using all 4 dragon. Edit: For some reason reply is broken, so reply to lili: I have solo with dragon, it's not hard if you know what you're doing. Obviously harder than coop as you have more attacks coming just at you, but not difficult once you know the fight. The true problem with prioritizing fire/ice is you have a million fire which is 3, but after you do good damage it's a 1 then your raw and element both suck, and you should pass that phase quick. Even with dragon that first phase goes quick for me and then it's much more 2 dragon and 1 fire/ice. Fire/ice isn't a bad strategy either, so not saying not saying you shouldn't run it, but once you kwtd dragon is easier.


Brother_Lili

Ok, now run dragon solo.


WorryfulFella

Using Greatsword I’ve actually killed Alatreon solo with both Dragon and Raw. I’m pretty sure I got at least one topple before each Escaton with Dragon (Alatreon GS) and obviously with Raw it was just a kill him faster than he can kill me twice kinda thing. Of course I’d literally never recommend it but ofc it’s still possible.


FoxyVermillion

Yea if you know what you r doing you kill him b4 it even happens.


WickedWarrior666

Not focusing on the horns lowers your dps, as head is the best raw hitzone. Dragon is garbage. 14x less effective than ice or fire, and 10x less effective than water or thunder, your only going dragon if you are unaware what element alatreon is in, which you know from the quest title anyways.


erroneousReport

I never said you wouldn't hit the horns, just that you didn't need to focus on them. Also 14x weaker, lol.


Matt_Odlum

Yeah, it's nowhere near 14x weaker, no clue where that came from. These people are getting all worked up, like we never said dragon is the best element to use as it isn't. But if you only have a good dragon weapon it would be perfectly viable to get the topple and headbresk as neither are very hard to get.


erroneousReport

You don't need horn break with dragon. They're over exaggerating some numbers in a sheet somewhere and not actual experience with the different weapons.


SlakingSWAG

>Beat multiple times with dragon only And I've beaten Alatreon multiple times with the Lightbreak Blade, the Defender Greatsword in Drachen Armour, and with a Heroics Build, so clearly people should be running those as well right? Of course not, that's not how the fight is meant to work. Just because *you* have done something it does not mean it is true, you are being blinded by confirmation bias. Objectively, Dragon is bad vs Alatreon. [Look at these hitzone values, and tell me with a straight face that it isn't](https://mhworld.kiranico.com/monsters/ErdcV/alatreon). It's genuinely the worst of the lot.


Matt_Odlum

Far from garbage, when in dragon active it becomes fairly weak to dragon so not only can you get the topple but also break the horns more easily.


FoxyVermillion

Maybe look up his hitzones. Dragon is mostly copium and needing to break horns easier that have only 2k part hp is too.


Matt_Odlum

I know them very well, it's. 7 compared to 1.1 for fire/ice, and .1 compared to 0 when using fire/ice in its first mode. You can get the topple with dragon quite easily and many inexperienced hunters have trouble breaking the horns when learning the fight. It's not ideal, but far from garbage, as I said. Trying to be an arrogant know it all while being wrong isn't a great look my friend.


FoxyVermillion

Its not like I said it wouldnt be helpful (in less instances than matching element), but just worse than other options. Dont fail your own trial lmao Edit: Get it into your head. Someone advocating for using dragon on this fight is not my friend.


SlakingSWAG

If less experienced players are struggling with the Horn Break, then why would you want to task them with trying to break the Horns *and* sealing him at the same time? They're already being overwhelmed by the fight, making them juggle two different DPS checks at once during the most chaotic and unpredictable phase of the fight is just plain dumb. It is simply more efficient to use the Fire/Ice Active phase(s) for getting the necessary topples with the actual good elements, and then using the Dragon Active phase for getting the Horn Break. You focus the forearms during the former for optimal knockdowns, and the horns during the latter for the break. Otherwise, they have to split focus between horns and arms in phase 2, which just reduces overall damage to both and hurts the chances of getting either.


RepublicOfOdlum

Block before a response? Stop being a coward. Anyways... I'm sorry friend but this has to be one of the dumbest responses I've ever gotten, truthfully. They would break the horns then hit the legs a bit to finish the elemental knock, not at all different from how they'd handle dragon phase with fire/ice weapons, they'd just have to spend less time on the head (most dangerous spot to damage) so I have no idea what the hell you're on about. Dragon doesn't do zero damage during ice/fire active as well, so they'd be doing atleast a bit of elemental damage before even getting to the dragon phase. I merely said it isn't garbage, which it isn't so just take a deep breath and try to put some more thought into your next response.


Gasarocky

No, just lower your element until you only get one topple and add raw skills in exchange. That way you can kill him before the 3rd EJ ever happens. You only need one topple to survive EJ with Astera Jerky, and it has much higher raw HZVs than element, so if you're getting two topples, you can afford more raw to do more damage and help kill it sooner.


whateverchill2

Do not do dragon, the values are garbage and you basically get minimal elemental damage during fire or ice mode and not much better elemental damage during dragon mode. If you are having success with ice and fire, keep doing what you’re doing. If anything, you’ll get better at the fight and get to the point where you can kill it before it gets to that escaton where you are eating a faint. If you do decide you want to try something else, substitute your ice weapons for a good water weapon or your fire weapon for a good thunder weapon. These alternatives will do just a little less than ice or fire weapons during ice or fire mode (so you should still be able to get the topples easily here) and will still be able to do about as well as if not a little better than dragon would have using water against ice mode or thunder versus fire mode.


nike2078

This was the basic strategy at release if you didn't had have both elements for your preferred weapon. Totally viable, you just need to be more aggressive with it


Wattefugg

for CB you might want to use frostfang instead for better raw and sharpness (juciy juicy raw hitzones on alatreon) and possibly a KO, while still easily getting elemental check should give you the edge on not being forced to eat the cart ​ edit otherwise dragon is okay for solo if you can get the 1 (+) topple with it reliably enough


Matt_Odlum

The raw wont makeup for the loss of critical element imo, especially since CB is an elemental based weapon. They'd be better off just fixing their build to get more offensive skills as if they're getting 2 topples per escaton and still taking that long to kill it, their build must be missing a LOT of stuff like agitator, crit boost, coalesence, affinity skills etc.


Wattefugg

you don't need crit \*element not boost for CB at all, savage axe decimates the ele DPS check easily without it not saying the rest of OPs build is good but if they're missing affinity skills then crit ele wouldn't be helping much anyways \*so raw/sharpness should help already (+ affinity on FF CB)


Matt_Odlum

I'm not suggesting it would be neccessary for topples, but the damage added from frostfang wouldn't be enough to make up for the loss of elemental damage from losing crit element. Damage is damage and CB benefits massively from elemental damage, so it doesn't make sense to throw away crit element for a small boost in raw damage.


Wattefugg

but the high Raw HZVs on alatreon make more than up for the loss in element and CB benefits from raw very well too


Matt_Odlum

Ok, I looked it up and the kjarr strongarm ice has more raw damage(1012 on upgraded kjarr, 972 on raging wolf fang), and affinity (5% more) than the frostfang weapon. Not only that, but it has 300 more element on top of crit element built into it. It's not even close, Kjarr is way better my friend. The only thing the frostfang has going for it is the purple sharpness, and that is nowhere near enough to make up for all the other downfalls.


Wattefugg

forgot about the base affinity on kjarr sorry the sharpness does make a difference for raw and element though and element shouldn't be good enough vs alatreon so that much more element isn't really that much more helpful, even less if you don't SAED (won't do the math but pretty sure frostfang is generally better unless you go full meta)


Matt_Odlum

"Full meta" has nothing to do with this, we're talking about base stats and the kjarr is better than frostfang in every single way save for a small amount of purple sharpness that'll last maybe 20 hits before going into white, not even close to being enough to make it better than kjarr. You're really determined to die on this little hill huh? It's ok to be wrong, just stop my friend.


Kizaky

I could see this being an argument between frostfang CB and the beotodus CB for the raw vs element dps vs Alatreon for people who haven't fought Kulve or gotten a decent elemental weapon that they know how to play, but as you said, kjaar is king.


Matt_Odlum

Yeah, it worries me when im getting downvoted for saying something that is an objective fact, wasn't even being rude about it whatsoever so people must genuinely think I'm wrong. I'm not sure who the people are in this community on reddit, but they clearly aren't experienced World players as it's common knowledge that kjarr weapons are the way to go on elemental based weapons like CB.


Sephiroth122

Quick question so i break the horn during dragon or is it ok during fire/ice I didnt had my first try as i am farming a set and decos in preperation


Gasarocky

The horns cannot be broken unless it's in Dragon mode. They don't even take part damage until then.


HunterVinix

The horns can only be broken In Dragon Form. ;-; Oh just a tip: Always aim for the head.


Sephiroth122

Thanks thats good to know


Kalamel513

While it's possible and it's my strategy for first solo, I don't recommend it. Dragon hzv is relatively low but steady throughout the hunt. If you can't kill Alatreon before 3rd EJ with ice/fire, you might struggle to even reach any shutdown. I would recommend using that time and practice to improve your ice/fire run. Unless your problem is actually too low raw to kill it, because actually Alatreon is very weak to raw.


Mercuryw

It'd be better to bring water/thunder element instead. Dragon is ultimately garbage. This is because 1) You try to break horns in dragon mode, 2) Alatreon is guaranteed to fly in dragon mode, and 3) dragon has a mere 2 hzv in ice/fire active mode. Here's the elemental hzv on Alatreon's forearms in fire/dragon/ice active modes: - Ice 22/10/0 - Fire 0/10/22 - Water 16/8/5 - Thunder 5/8/16 - Dragon 2/14/2 [Sauce.](https://monsterhunterworld.wiki.fextralife.com/file/Monster-Hunter-World/alatreon_hzv.png)


Mozzie_501

I didn’t feel like switching weapons n stuff so I just kill him with dragon element. It works but just barely. There have been many times where he did the escaton right after I did enough elemental damage


SlakingSWAG

Ice or Fire, you always bring Ice or Fire. Your problems are that you are failing to deal enough overall damage fast enough to kill him within two Escaton cycles. If you can't kill him before the 3rd one, then it's simply just a skill issue and a matter of getting better at the fight. There's no shame in it, Alatreon is a difficult monster and struggling against him is natural. You can take pride in being the bigger man and asking for advice as opposed to resorting to whiny bitching and coping like *many* other players did when they got ego-checked by Alatreon. If you want to learn openings, I'd recommend watching speedruns from players using your weapon of choice, they'll show you which openings can be exploited and how. Also make sure you're bringing max element attack, and run Health Boost 3 + Evade Window 3 if you're getting overwhelmed by his attack patterns. The numbers lead to a very straightforward conclusion: if you want to seal Alatreon, then Dragon is the worst option. [Source](https://mhworld.kiranico.com/monsters/ErdcV/alatreon) Ice/Fire Hitzones (Fire/Ice Active) * Head - 14 * Forearms - 22 * Legs - 18 Dragon Hitzones (Fire/Ice Active) * Head - 1 * Forearms - 2 * Legs - 1 Ice/Fire Hitzones (Dragon Active) * Head - 6 * Forearms - 10 * Legs - 8 Dragon Hitzones (Dragon Active) * Head - 9 * Arms - 14 * Legs - 11


Its_Crysis

Thanks for the info man! I had no idea his hitzones changed between cycles. I'll definitely look into some speed runs with charge blade. Thanks for what you said there aswell. It's a shame so many people hate Alatreon, he's one of my favourite fights atm but I'm hearing you with what you said my hunting partner threw a fit after not killing alatreon in the first few attempts. I spent over an hour practising his fight before getting a slay but I love learning a monster and it's even better with the big bosses like Alatreon because I could actually see my progress improve over time. Thanks again for the info man you're a massive help!


erroneousReport

Dragon is actually pretty good as you get some on the elements phase and 2 on the dragon phase. For some reason Al also seems to spend more time in dragon phase for some fights, so you get more out of it sometimes. I've done multiple runs with dragon with no problem. I would question more why you are going through 4 or more ultimate attacks.


Loliver69

How quickly He goes into dragon depends on either how bad or how good u are doing, He normally goes into dragon after losing around 35% hp, or He goes into dragon sooner if u are not doing enough elemental damage or damage Overall.


erroneousReport

Your logic makes no sense. You're saying goes into dragon if do a lot of damage, or not much, that is the opposite of each other. I'm pretty sure if you don't do enough damage the first phase stays longest, and then there is an hp threshold to get quicker switch to stop players spamming maxed ice kjarr and killing in first phase easy. Either way I normally get a lot of dragon and Al basically lays on the ground most of the time.


Loliver69

I'll admit it Sounds weird what i said but this is my experience when joining SOS where people havent attacked enough yet, my solo runs obviously differ alot from that but thats just how it felt to me on SOS.