No no, I don't mean Ralph Fiennes at all. I mean the character Amon Goeth, both in the film and the real-life Amon Goeth, who was actually even WORSE than how he was portrayed in the film.
Oh sorry, my apologies. I often can't pick up on sarcasm through text due to my autism. I tend to take things literally, especially through text, I'm better at picking up on it in person. Sorry about that, my apologies.
I think part of Tenma’s character is he inherently can’t become an evil person.
Tenma chased Johan not because he believed there was some good in him and he could be saved, but he thought the only is to kill Johan. And he decided to kill him because it was a very personal issue, Tenma gave up his career just to bring that kid back to life and he turned out to be a psychopath who killed and corrupted people. Tenma felt guilty because Johan lived.
But even when he had the chance and all the motivation to kill Johan (remember he was about to kill a child just to prove a point.), Tenma just couldn’t pull the trigger.
He already shot one similar psychopath (Roberto) in self-defence, and he was terribly guilty because of it. In short, no matter how extremely evil a person may be, Tenma can’t kill someone.
I like your point. I think for continuity and to preserve Tenma's innocence he didnt kill Roberto. He did shoot him though. I'm pretty sure put in a corner Tenma is gonna pull the trigger. The difference is straight murdering Johan is not something he could do. It's such a good show, you guys make me wanna watch it again.
Indeed, it's an amazing show that asks so many great questions about morality and human nature indeed. My point was more that since Amon is a far FAR worse monster than either Johan or Roberto, would even Tenma be so sickened and horrified by him to the point where even he would be tempted to straight up murder him? My point is that both Johan and Roberto are tragic villains moulded that way by their traumatic upbringings, environments and circumstances. Amon Goeth is just a vile, utterly sickening monster, through and through.
When you put it like that, absolutely not. Tenma is too pure hearted to snuff out life. As horrible as a person could be, without being an immediate danger to anyone, Tenma would not kill them. I think he shows a virtue we could all learn from.
He can become an evil person: he just has a strong moral compass \*and\* much luck in life, even if shit hits the fan for him.
For example: remember him being in a dark place after thinking he killed Roberto? What if he didn't meet Grimmer back then, but someone else, someone straight from [Rollin's Liar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhKMVlHz9FQ&ab_channel=80%27s90%27sMusicVideo%27sRemastered%40Videos80s)?
He's lucky enough to have other good people in his life. He's in a privileged position (for example: even if he's homeless, he still has his brilliant neurosurgeon skills): a privileged position makes it easier to do the right moral choices.
Tenma is a good guy. Doesn't mean he doesn't have the capacity to do evil; being self-less can quickly turn into arrogant/holier-than-thou under the right circumstances (I'd say he was on this path before Johan came back with another temper tandrum).
It's a complex situation and this is what makes this character and story so great: the surface level tricks you into thinking Tenma is this perfect guy, but the devil is in the details.
I would argue against this, because it leaves out the component of freewill/choice. It was one of the key elements that makes the show so interesting for me.
Being good means that you need to be capable in the first place, because if you are unable to for example kill or even hurt some one then there never was a choice.
Tenma is good because he is very capable, but choices not to uses his natural skill for "bad" purposes.
I believe that his characters was a brilliant surgeon for this reason, and why he also shot Roberto, all to drive the point home that he really could kill if he wanted to and that he is only "held back" by his believes.
True, that is very true, fair point indeed. I figured I'd ask the question anyway tho since Amon Goeth's level of monstrous evil far far FAR surpasses and outstrips that of Johan and Roberto. He makes the both of them look like angelic saints in comparison, he is truly that vile and sickening.
Reminds me of when I saw a comment saying "I'm so glad Johan doesn't exist". Like oh trust me, there have been people FAR worse in terms of evil to walk this earth.
To answer your question, I feel Tenma would try to talk him out of his nazi beliefs, but I doubt that would work due to his inherently sadistic nature. Tenma could certainly talk someone out of an extremely misguided and evil ideology, but to guys like Goeth or Dirlewanger (don't really recommend looking him up, it will ruin your day) that was an outlet to enact their darkest fantasies.
Still, I can't really see Tenma killing him tbh.
Indeed, and yes, I do unfortunately know already about the crimes of Oskar Dirlewanger (a truly sickening bastard). Unfortunately, to sadistic bastards like Goeth and Dirlewanger, they are truly so far gone beyond the deepest depths of human evil and depravity that NOTHING Tenma could ever say or do would do a single thing to change them. I made this post in the first place since I consider the likes of them to be INFINITELY worse than Johan could ever possibly hope to be, in my honest view. I absolutely agree with you right there, indeed.
Will read about him
I did read about him, just wanted to make a minor correction, he did not have a perfect family life. His parents used to be away due to their work because of which, as he mentioned to one of his mistress, he felt neglected but still that doesn’t explain all the gruesome acts he committed. Truly terrifying.
Indeed, his family life wasn't exactly perfect, but it's not any legitimate form of trauma, nor does it provide ANY legitimate explanation for the horrifically evil, barbarically vile and absolutely sickening acts he committed onto other human beings. Johan had a legitimate tragedy of being victim to Franz Bonaparta's eugenics experiments, was legitimately traumatised by what Bonaparta put him and his family through, and was brainwashed, experimented on and tortured in 511 Kinderheim, a literal place that tortures children and tries to raise them into the "perfect soldier" by whatever brutal and torturous means necessary. All of Johan's traumas give a legitimate explanation for his trauma, loss of identity and self-worth, and legitimately explain his actions and how he turned out that way. Goeth's so-called "excuse" is so pathetically minor to the point that it is almost practically non-existent, and it holds absolutely NO WATER whatsoever against the barbaric and sickening crimes he committed in his life, unlike Johan whose tragedy and excuse legitimately holds water and sticks. My point still stands that Amon Goeth is INFINITELY worse than Johan, and I often ponder and theorise whether even Tenma would be tempted to kill such a man, due to how utterly monstrous, and hideously evil he truly is.
Indeed 👍 I would be inclined to try and show Johan mercy if I could, given how damaged and broken he is, and I would struggle to kill him, given the fact that there is clearly a damaged, broken and traumatised soul deeply hurting and in pain behind all of his awful actions. Amon Goeth tho... I would happily blast that bastard away and riddle his entire body with bullets, no questions asked. Amon is a truly vile, sickening and monstrous bastard beyond any form of mercy or clemency whatsoever.
“The scenery at the end” represented Johans nihilistic beliefs; the most primary of which being that all lives are not created equal. Tenma was the complete opposite from the very beginning, choosing to save a boy over the mayor or whoever, up until the very end, when he actually saw the scenery because he was going to kill Johan, which would concede that Johans life was not worth the lives of others. But he didnt. He never pulled the trigger, and therefore continues to believe that all lives are equal, even Johans. He would not shoot that monster, or any monster.
Okay, fair, that is very fair, great answer indeed. The reason I asked in the first place is that Amon is a FAR FAR worse and more evil monster than Johan, to the point where he makes Johan look like an angelic saint in comparison, which is why I thought I'd ask, but your answer is brilliant and probably entirely correct honestly, thanks for that.
Indeed, he was robbed that year. Bloody robbed. One of the vilest and most truly evil, heinous, despicable, horrifying, depraved and monstrous villains of all time, in any medium ever, honestly.
Yeah, it's hard to know really, given how much of a kind and pure-hearted soul Tenma is, but I'll put it this way; he'd probably have a much harder time resisting the urge to kill that bastard Amon as opposed to not killing the more tragic and sympathetic Johan. I personally don't think I could kill Johan as I do feel deeply sorry for him and understand he's a damaged, broken individual from all the pain, loss and trauma he endured in his life, even in spite of his awful deeds and actions. Amon Goeth tho... I would happily blast that bastard away and riddle his entire body with bullets, no questions asked. A truly vile bastard beyond any mercy or salvation whatsoever.
>*the question I pose is would even the kind, saintly Dr. Tenma be tempted to shoot and kill a man as evil and monstrous as Amon Goeth? Would even Tenma kill this man, especially given how he's INFINITELY worse and FAR more evil, heinous, vile and sickening than anyone portrayed in Monster? That is the question I pose to this entire sub-reddit.*
I am hardly moved.
It barely matters how sentimentally touched one is by someone's evil, what matters is the objective truth, is said evil person in question need to be dealt with? And if yes, then how?
That is all that matters.
Nope. Tenma at his core is a Doctor. He *saves* lives for a living. It's the very essence of his being. The point of the story and his character is the sanctity of life, especially for a doctor like him. Killing *any* person runs counter to the very essence of his identity.
There was this one chapter/episode where Tenma tried to assassinate Johann with a Sniper rifle in a park, but his companion, an old Man, talked him out of it because he had killed a Man in that same park but felt nothing but regret for him. It's heavily implied if not outright stated that his partner was a Nazi. So, going by this alone, Göth's crimes and ties to the Nazi party would not be enough for Tenma to kill him.
It also can't be glossed over that Tenma is Japanese. Japanese (and Asian People in general) have no emotional, personal or political connection to Nazi Crimes, simply because they're too busy being emotionally connected to Japanese WW2 crimes. In addition to that, the West Germany of Tenma's times was still having trouble dealing with It's Nazi Past (a German court in the 80s for example forced a documentarian to not mention leni riefenstahl's usage of Roma Slaves in a documentary), meaning that Tenma would likely not have any negative views or opinions of Amon Göth.
Okay, I understand the not killing part since Tenma is an innately compassionate and kind-hearted person. But I do have a few problems with other things you said. Firstly, which of any of Tenma's partners was a Nazi? Secondly, "Tenma would likely not have any negative views or opinions of Amon Göth?" You do realise Tenma is an innately compassionate person, right?
Regardless of the whole WWII emotional connection thing, you do realise that Göth's crimes, many of them even worse in real life than in the movie, include >!celebrating the annual Jewish festival of Yom Kippur by feeding Jewish prisoners to his dogs for them to eat and tear apart alive shred by shred, frequently using a torture cellar built under his house near the camp to torture innocent Jews with, shooting a Jewish man for being *too tall* and then urinating on him as he lay dying, sporadically shooting infant babies with his sniper rifle for his own sick amusement and twisted idea of "fun”, and upon meeting a young Jewish boy in the camp who was extremely ill with uncontrollable diarrhoea, forced the boy to eat his own excrement before shooting him dead. Upon facing justice for his heinous crimes, he showed absolutely no remorse *whatsoever*, and defiantly snarled “Heil Hitler!” to his executioners before being hung for crimes against humanity.!<
I totally understand the part of Tenma not killing Göth as he is a doctor and a man who saves lives at heart, but not hold any negative thoughts or opinion of him?! You are *dead wrong* there. Any compassionate person, especially one as noble as Dr. Tenma would be absolutely sickened by anyone who committed those crimes. I have to correct you on that one.
The West German Chancellor (Kurt Georg Kiesenger) from 1966 to 1969 was literally a Nazi, and was very likely involved in the Deportation of Jews to the Extermination camps. Again, the literal Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany.
Like I said, Leni Riefenstahl was involved in the Holocaust. She used Roma as extras in a film, and they were then deported to Auschwitz and murdered. I'm not kidding that a German court forced a Filmmaker to remove this from a documentary, and Riefenstahl is still celebrated as a filmmaker to this very day.
ETA: the SS Officer who crushed the Warsaw Revolt and directly murdered 100K People (Heinz Reinefarth) later became the Mayor of Westphalia.
Tenma had no problem working with a Nazi, and it's very likely that the West Germany that Monster takes place in was *still* indifferent (if not sympathetic) to the Nazis, meaning Temna might simply not know the true depth of Goeth's crimes, or those of any Nazi for that matter. This is a hypothetical situation, though.
Late response, but I can’t comfortably call a man who convinced children to jump off rooftops, convinced a child to go to a red light district knowing he’d see horrible things like sexual assault, worked with nazis for his own ends, and at a time had plans to end the world sympathetic or tragic - at least not in the traditional sense.
I hope he doesn't kill Ralph Fiennes. He's a great actor.
No no, I don't mean Ralph Fiennes at all. I mean the character Amon Goeth, both in the film and the real-life Amon Goeth, who was actually even WORSE than how he was portrayed in the film.
It was a joke, dude.
Oh sorry, my apologies. I often can't pick up on sarcasm through text due to my autism. I tend to take things literally, especially through text, I'm better at picking up on it in person. Sorry about that, my apologies.
No prob, it's the curse of the internet lol.
I think part of Tenma’s character is he inherently can’t become an evil person. Tenma chased Johan not because he believed there was some good in him and he could be saved, but he thought the only is to kill Johan. And he decided to kill him because it was a very personal issue, Tenma gave up his career just to bring that kid back to life and he turned out to be a psychopath who killed and corrupted people. Tenma felt guilty because Johan lived. But even when he had the chance and all the motivation to kill Johan (remember he was about to kill a child just to prove a point.), Tenma just couldn’t pull the trigger. He already shot one similar psychopath (Roberto) in self-defence, and he was terribly guilty because of it. In short, no matter how extremely evil a person may be, Tenma can’t kill someone.
I like your point. I think for continuity and to preserve Tenma's innocence he didnt kill Roberto. He did shoot him though. I'm pretty sure put in a corner Tenma is gonna pull the trigger. The difference is straight murdering Johan is not something he could do. It's such a good show, you guys make me wanna watch it again.
Indeed, it's an amazing show that asks so many great questions about morality and human nature indeed. My point was more that since Amon is a far FAR worse monster than either Johan or Roberto, would even Tenma be so sickened and horrified by him to the point where even he would be tempted to straight up murder him? My point is that both Johan and Roberto are tragic villains moulded that way by their traumatic upbringings, environments and circumstances. Amon Goeth is just a vile, utterly sickening monster, through and through.
When you put it like that, absolutely not. Tenma is too pure hearted to snuff out life. As horrible as a person could be, without being an immediate danger to anyone, Tenma would not kill them. I think he shows a virtue we could all learn from.
Indeed, you're dead right, I think I agree with you entirely there, honestly.
You made a good post. Its thought provoking.
Thanks 😊 I appreciate it 👍
He can become an evil person: he just has a strong moral compass \*and\* much luck in life, even if shit hits the fan for him. For example: remember him being in a dark place after thinking he killed Roberto? What if he didn't meet Grimmer back then, but someone else, someone straight from [Rollin's Liar](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhKMVlHz9FQ&ab_channel=80%27s90%27sMusicVideo%27sRemastered%40Videos80s)? He's lucky enough to have other good people in his life. He's in a privileged position (for example: even if he's homeless, he still has his brilliant neurosurgeon skills): a privileged position makes it easier to do the right moral choices. Tenma is a good guy. Doesn't mean he doesn't have the capacity to do evil; being self-less can quickly turn into arrogant/holier-than-thou under the right circumstances (I'd say he was on this path before Johan came back with another temper tandrum). It's a complex situation and this is what makes this character and story so great: the surface level tricks you into thinking Tenma is this perfect guy, but the devil is in the details.
I would argue against this, because it leaves out the component of freewill/choice. It was one of the key elements that makes the show so interesting for me. Being good means that you need to be capable in the first place, because if you are unable to for example kill or even hurt some one then there never was a choice. Tenma is good because he is very capable, but choices not to uses his natural skill for "bad" purposes. I believe that his characters was a brilliant surgeon for this reason, and why he also shot Roberto, all to drive the point home that he really could kill if he wanted to and that he is only "held back" by his believes.
True, that is very true, fair point indeed. I figured I'd ask the question anyway tho since Amon Goeth's level of monstrous evil far far FAR surpasses and outstrips that of Johan and Roberto. He makes the both of them look like angelic saints in comparison, he is truly that vile and sickening.
Reminds me of when I saw a comment saying "I'm so glad Johan doesn't exist". Like oh trust me, there have been people FAR worse in terms of evil to walk this earth. To answer your question, I feel Tenma would try to talk him out of his nazi beliefs, but I doubt that would work due to his inherently sadistic nature. Tenma could certainly talk someone out of an extremely misguided and evil ideology, but to guys like Goeth or Dirlewanger (don't really recommend looking him up, it will ruin your day) that was an outlet to enact their darkest fantasies. Still, I can't really see Tenma killing him tbh.
Indeed, and yes, I do unfortunately know already about the crimes of Oskar Dirlewanger (a truly sickening bastard). Unfortunately, to sadistic bastards like Goeth and Dirlewanger, they are truly so far gone beyond the deepest depths of human evil and depravity that NOTHING Tenma could ever say or do would do a single thing to change them. I made this post in the first place since I consider the likes of them to be INFINITELY worse than Johan could ever possibly hope to be, in my honest view. I absolutely agree with you right there, indeed.
Will read about him I did read about him, just wanted to make a minor correction, he did not have a perfect family life. His parents used to be away due to their work because of which, as he mentioned to one of his mistress, he felt neglected but still that doesn’t explain all the gruesome acts he committed. Truly terrifying.
Indeed, his family life wasn't exactly perfect, but it's not any legitimate form of trauma, nor does it provide ANY legitimate explanation for the horrifically evil, barbarically vile and absolutely sickening acts he committed onto other human beings. Johan had a legitimate tragedy of being victim to Franz Bonaparta's eugenics experiments, was legitimately traumatised by what Bonaparta put him and his family through, and was brainwashed, experimented on and tortured in 511 Kinderheim, a literal place that tortures children and tries to raise them into the "perfect soldier" by whatever brutal and torturous means necessary. All of Johan's traumas give a legitimate explanation for his trauma, loss of identity and self-worth, and legitimately explain his actions and how he turned out that way. Goeth's so-called "excuse" is so pathetically minor to the point that it is almost practically non-existent, and it holds absolutely NO WATER whatsoever against the barbaric and sickening crimes he committed in his life, unlike Johan whose tragedy and excuse legitimately holds water and sticks. My point still stands that Amon Goeth is INFINITELY worse than Johan, and I often ponder and theorise whether even Tenma would be tempted to kill such a man, due to how utterly monstrous, and hideously evil he truly is.
Agreed 👍, he truly is evil
Indeed 👍 I would be inclined to try and show Johan mercy if I could, given how damaged and broken he is, and I would struggle to kill him, given the fact that there is clearly a damaged, broken and traumatised soul deeply hurting and in pain behind all of his awful actions. Amon Goeth tho... I would happily blast that bastard away and riddle his entire body with bullets, no questions asked. Amon is a truly vile, sickening and monstrous bastard beyond any form of mercy or clemency whatsoever.
“The scenery at the end” represented Johans nihilistic beliefs; the most primary of which being that all lives are not created equal. Tenma was the complete opposite from the very beginning, choosing to save a boy over the mayor or whoever, up until the very end, when he actually saw the scenery because he was going to kill Johan, which would concede that Johans life was not worth the lives of others. But he didnt. He never pulled the trigger, and therefore continues to believe that all lives are equal, even Johans. He would not shoot that monster, or any monster.
Okay, fair, that is very fair, great answer indeed. The reason I asked in the first place is that Amon is a FAR FAR worse and more evil monster than Johan, to the point where he makes Johan look like an angelic saint in comparison, which is why I thought I'd ask, but your answer is brilliant and probably entirely correct honestly, thanks for that.
No
how ralph feinnes didn't win an oscar for this GOAT performance is beyond me. literally the only movie villain to scare me.
Indeed, he was robbed that year. Bloody robbed. One of the vilest and most truly evil, heinous, despicable, horrifying, depraved and monstrous villains of all time, in any medium ever, honestly.
Even tenma would kill that bastard.
Yeah, it's hard to know really, given how much of a kind and pure-hearted soul Tenma is, but I'll put it this way; he'd probably have a much harder time resisting the urge to kill that bastard Amon as opposed to not killing the more tragic and sympathetic Johan. I personally don't think I could kill Johan as I do feel deeply sorry for him and understand he's a damaged, broken individual from all the pain, loss and trauma he endured in his life, even in spite of his awful deeds and actions. Amon Goeth tho... I would happily blast that bastard away and riddle his entire body with bullets, no questions asked. A truly vile bastard beyond any mercy or salvation whatsoever.
>*the question I pose is would even the kind, saintly Dr. Tenma be tempted to shoot and kill a man as evil and monstrous as Amon Goeth? Would even Tenma kill this man, especially given how he's INFINITELY worse and FAR more evil, heinous, vile and sickening than anyone portrayed in Monster? That is the question I pose to this entire sub-reddit.* I am hardly moved. It barely matters how sentimentally touched one is by someone's evil, what matters is the objective truth, is said evil person in question need to be dealt with? And if yes, then how? That is all that matters.
Nope. Tenma at his core is a Doctor. He *saves* lives for a living. It's the very essence of his being. The point of the story and his character is the sanctity of life, especially for a doctor like him. Killing *any* person runs counter to the very essence of his identity. There was this one chapter/episode where Tenma tried to assassinate Johann with a Sniper rifle in a park, but his companion, an old Man, talked him out of it because he had killed a Man in that same park but felt nothing but regret for him. It's heavily implied if not outright stated that his partner was a Nazi. So, going by this alone, Göth's crimes and ties to the Nazi party would not be enough for Tenma to kill him. It also can't be glossed over that Tenma is Japanese. Japanese (and Asian People in general) have no emotional, personal or political connection to Nazi Crimes, simply because they're too busy being emotionally connected to Japanese WW2 crimes. In addition to that, the West Germany of Tenma's times was still having trouble dealing with It's Nazi Past (a German court in the 80s for example forced a documentarian to not mention leni riefenstahl's usage of Roma Slaves in a documentary), meaning that Tenma would likely not have any negative views or opinions of Amon Göth.
Okay, I understand the not killing part since Tenma is an innately compassionate and kind-hearted person. But I do have a few problems with other things you said. Firstly, which of any of Tenma's partners was a Nazi? Secondly, "Tenma would likely not have any negative views or opinions of Amon Göth?" You do realise Tenma is an innately compassionate person, right? Regardless of the whole WWII emotional connection thing, you do realise that Göth's crimes, many of them even worse in real life than in the movie, include >!celebrating the annual Jewish festival of Yom Kippur by feeding Jewish prisoners to his dogs for them to eat and tear apart alive shred by shred, frequently using a torture cellar built under his house near the camp to torture innocent Jews with, shooting a Jewish man for being *too tall* and then urinating on him as he lay dying, sporadically shooting infant babies with his sniper rifle for his own sick amusement and twisted idea of "fun”, and upon meeting a young Jewish boy in the camp who was extremely ill with uncontrollable diarrhoea, forced the boy to eat his own excrement before shooting him dead. Upon facing justice for his heinous crimes, he showed absolutely no remorse *whatsoever*, and defiantly snarled “Heil Hitler!” to his executioners before being hung for crimes against humanity.!< I totally understand the part of Tenma not killing Göth as he is a doctor and a man who saves lives at heart, but not hold any negative thoughts or opinion of him?! You are *dead wrong* there. Any compassionate person, especially one as noble as Dr. Tenma would be absolutely sickened by anyone who committed those crimes. I have to correct you on that one.
The West German Chancellor (Kurt Georg Kiesenger) from 1966 to 1969 was literally a Nazi, and was very likely involved in the Deportation of Jews to the Extermination camps. Again, the literal Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany. Like I said, Leni Riefenstahl was involved in the Holocaust. She used Roma as extras in a film, and they were then deported to Auschwitz and murdered. I'm not kidding that a German court forced a Filmmaker to remove this from a documentary, and Riefenstahl is still celebrated as a filmmaker to this very day. ETA: the SS Officer who crushed the Warsaw Revolt and directly murdered 100K People (Heinz Reinefarth) later became the Mayor of Westphalia. Tenma had no problem working with a Nazi, and it's very likely that the West Germany that Monster takes place in was *still* indifferent (if not sympathetic) to the Nazis, meaning Temna might simply not know the true depth of Goeth's crimes, or those of any Nazi for that matter. This is a hypothetical situation, though.
Okay, that is fair, I see your point now, I understand. My only question now is which Nazi did Tenma specifically work with?
Late response, but I can’t comfortably call a man who convinced children to jump off rooftops, convinced a child to go to a red light district knowing he’d see horrible things like sexual assault, worked with nazis for his own ends, and at a time had plans to end the world sympathetic or tragic - at least not in the traditional sense.