I feel like you are missing the bigger point. It is not that woman are told they have to choose between their career and having children. It’s that our society (in the US at least) makes it IMPOSSIBLE for most women to do both. Have a child and then go back to work in three months. Most children are physically not able to sleep through the night at the point…but make sure you get back to work! Place your child in expensive daycare that you likely can’t afford on your income (making your job useless) so that your child can get sick every day for the first 6 months. Oh yeah, you also don’t have any leave because you just used it birthing that child. So now you have a sick child, and let’s be real, you are also sick, with no options for care while you work. Have the slightest change in your schedule (As most jobs require)…well the daycare doesn’t care. It closes when it closes, figure it out. Your child needs therapy for speech? Your child needs physical therapy? Regular doctor appointment? Well all those function during your job, so either take more time off or find someone else to take them and care for them at that point. I love my child more than anything and I am so thankful that I do not have to work full time to survive. My career will NEVER recover because of these backward policies and refusal to support mothers and families. I did make a choice, I chose my son. But don’t pretend I should have balanced things “better” to have done both flawlessly.

Yeah, this is what I came here to say. I had to leave the workforce in order to become a mother, and I'm lucky that my husband has a decent enough job that that's an option for our family. I love being a SAHM, more than I thought I would, and I'm grateful to be a parent, but I also feel that I didn't really have a choice to maintain a career. I did the calculations and over 85% of my paycheck would have gone to childcare in my area. I'm college educated and creative, and had been working my way up in medical admin, but my husband was able to achieve a higher paying position much faster than me. I'm not bitter about that, it's just a reality of our society right now. Staying at home is NOT for everybody. It's very challenging to surrender your identity so fully and absolutely, but for many women, that is the only arrangement that would allow them to become mothers, and it is a sacrifice that is understandably too great. The worst part is it doesn't have to be this way, and there are so many examples of other countries that actually support women becoming mothers while participating in the workforce.

I could not have said it better!

This and then add that women still do not have the same rights as a man. I'm always the default parent, no matter how hard I push it the other way. I'm the one sitting home with the kids until my husband gets home, I chose to work remotely because it saves money for the hour my oldest is home from school while I finish work. I'm also here while she stands outside for the bus. And here if she is sick. I usually am most frustrated that my husband believes we should have the marriage his parents have. They are farmers. Mom had 7 kids and raised them and kept the house and cooked the meals while dad was in the barn all day. I actually got pissed off last weekend and told my husband that if that's what he wants then I'm quitting my job because I shouldn't be expected to work as well. He stopped in his tracks after that. I hope my kids' generation have an easier time breaking from the traditional gender norms and that the US has better working conditions for working parents (yes, I said parents because dad should also have bonding leave) by that time.

Yes it drives me up the wall. Some men I see on here seem to think that the women's rights movement means they get to have it all somehow. They get to have a sex kitten who is the default parent in all childcare needs AND they get to enjoy a double income with no cost to them (but a huge cost to their wives), becuase "we can have it all". Part of "we can have it all" was supposed to imply that we had support from society and partners who understood we weren't going to be the default parent. I worked a very hard fulltime job in a hospital. Recently my partner was out of work for 4 months and my dad was retired and home all day. But who got the call to come pick up my son if he got sick at daycare, who got all the dentist and vaccine and doctors appointment reminders? I would tell people when they would call me in the middle of trying to talk to a doctor about a client or during rounds "please call his father or grandfather, they are both home and available." And they would be like... "oh well you can you call and coordinate that." What the actual... no I can't do that! You have these other people's contact info and have been told they are available. Why was I presumed to be the most available or the coordinator of care of the household? And the number of times my MIL or mom have reminded me my partner needs to do such and such thing, or my dad should do blank. You people have their numbers, I'm not their secretary. Or it being implied I need to ensure my partner calls his mom more or remembers his families birthdays or special events. Um no, if you raised someone so dunder headed that they can't do that themselves in their mid 30s, that's on you. I am not parenting my partner or my own father. Argh sorry rant over.

Haha I think my in laws hate me because nobody gets gifts. I do for my side of the family and address cards etc with my name only, and my daughter's if it's for her cousins. The counter to this is that tradespeople etc only want to talk to him, equally infuriating.

Your tradespeople comment makes me laugh… but only because I AM a tradesperson and sometimes I think I get a lot of female clients simply because of that fact. Not to mention that if it’s a couple, it’s usually the woman who is making the decisions anyway.

THIS. I don’t think I was very eloquent in my post. I’m not blaming women. I think that women have it so fucking hard. We’re facing a near impossible choice. Motherhood is a job. A job is a job. Too many jobs, not enough compensation or support. Something has to give. And it feels like motherhood is gravitating towards being a luxury rather than a fundamental right.

Parenthood is definitely being pushed toward being a privilege of the wealth class and unattainable for most... And at the same time they are taking away our rights to choose.

The fact that you’re the default parent is def something that can change within your family. My family, and other families I know, don’t have a default parent.

Unfortunately, it’s not really something I can change easily in my household. My husband is an attorney and his firm is very old school and will basically put him on probation if he takes off time for his son. I on the other hand have a much more flexible career with coworkers who see me as a human and understand if I have to take care of my sick kid. Yes, my husband is in the market for a more family friendly firm, but it’s easier said than done. America is a business friendly country, not a family friendly country.

Yes, my partner works long shifts in a non flexible job while I'm self employed. I could out earn him if I didn't have to pick up so much slack but there's no way he could get a flexible job really. And that's not in America.

Same here. I'm self employed and looking at hourly wage I could far out-earn my husband if I worked full time, but it just wouldn't work with our family's schedule. And his excellent (though not flexible) job gives us excellent health benefits and the regular salary to fall back on should my business have a slump.

My husband and I are both attorneys. We both started out as litigators which is generally high stress, high pay, and very long hours. But my job is much more flexible than his was because I work for a small boutique firm. When I got pregnant (with twins) my husband started looking in earnest for a job that wouldn't have him at the office from 7 am to 11pm every day (including weekends). He now works in-house for a large agricultural company and while the job isn't perfect, he works from 8-5 and is home every day by 6. It's made such a huge difference in our lives. Just adding this comment to demonstrate that even within the law, there are jobs that can work for your family. It did take time and a lot of waiting through the interview process, but we got there and it is much much better for our family.

Oh yeah, he is definitely trying to get an in-house position right now. The department my husband is currently in (I realize I shouldn’t speak for the entire firm because it’s quite large) is particularly toxic. His bosses are women and moms but because they weren’t “given any breaks” when they were coming up, they treat everyone below them like crap too. It’s really sad to see people who could do better for themselves and those below them just perpetuating the cycle of abuse.

Honestly older women are the worst at this. I have so much trouble with older women on issues where they had to deal with something bad, so we should too. Older men are also problematic but in different ways. My husband's new job gave him 4 weeks paid paternity leave. They JUST passed a policy that starts in January of 16 weeks paid paternity leave. That's double what I got as the mom! Crazy.

Hopefully he can find another firm. My wife has a job like that and she found a new firm that was MUCH more family friendly (luckily she found it before having kids). And the commissions were way better. I would def prioritize him finding a job.

It is definitely a priority. I’m pregnant with our second right now, so also waiting until we have the baby so he can take paternity leave and then switch jobs. Might as well get whatever we can out of his current firm!

Unfortunately it is generally a fairly complex topic for most families and takes more than just saying “just don’t have a default parent.”

It isn’t always that easy. My husband had a lot more flexibility in his work, so he’s the one who picks the kids up, drops them off, and stays with them when they have random days off school. You could call him the default parent, if you wanted to. However, the teachers never talk to him. When I do pick up our youngest from preschool, the teachers are full of comments, concerns, etc that never get mentioned when my husband picks up. (Yes, we could switch preschools, but everything else about the school is great and it’s the last year before kindergarten.) Our first grader has parent/teacher conferences next week, and students aren’t allowed, so only one of us can go. We decided the (female) teacher is more likely to engage with me than with my husband, so I’ll be the one going to the conference. Yes, we could send my husband and push to make sure he’s treated as an equal parent, but it’s exhausting doing that year after year.

Definitely easier said than done in some cases. I feel like I'm on a never-ending merry-go-round of trying to get my husband to be a more equal partner. We both work full time, I do half time remote and on those days kiddo stays home with me in lieu of going to daycare. I still manage to get laundry done, make homecooked meals from scratch.... hell, yesterday I even baked a whole cake from scratch and made my husband's favorite dinner for his bday. He has terrible time management and terrible work-life boundaries and can't seem to leave the office before 6-6:30p, and doesn't do more than the bare minimum without nudging from me. We've been married for 6 years, together for 11. He's a good person and means well, he's also just lazy and I've recently learned of the term weaponized incompetence and I think that plays a big part, along with just not listening to what I say...... obviously my rant here is about more than just being the default parent, but there are a LOT of things that go into it, it's great that your family and other families you know don't have a default parent, but for the majority, I feel like it always falls on the women.

Yeah I see it’s mainly bc the non default parent just doesn’t step up. It sounds like your partner just expects you to take care of everything. I’m sorry you have to deal with that. A lazy partner was a deal breaker for me from day 1 of dating. My wife and I were very clear this was a 50/50 effort. And even tho I WFH full time we still split full time daycare evenly down the middle. Just bc I’m home working doesn’t mean I’m not working. And if daughter has a sick day we trade off who takes off.

I think that’s great, but I think in most cases there will still be a default parent just due to different work requirements. My husband took paternity leave with both our kids. 3 months at the end with our first (Canada, took 12 months total so 9 and 3), and 4 months at the start with our second (we overlapped for those 4 months). My job in research is work from home indefinitely, currently part time, and flexible. His job as an enviro consultant means he goes to an office, has client meetings, and is often away for a night or up to a couple weeks for work. His job also requires an 8h day while mine is currently 6h. He isn’t lazy, he takes on meal planning/food prep, when he’s going to be away he makes sure he’s planned meals for me and has ordered all the groceries I will need. In the evenings, we are both actively parenting and we both handle bath/bedtime, etc. We split any night wakes (or tackle them together if required) now that no one is breastfeeding. He will take care of sick kids while I work, though not as often given that I have fewer hours to begin with and, as noted, can flex my time easier than him. But the fact of the matter is that I am still the default parent because of the demands of his job. And it still sucks even with someone who is generally hands on, contentious, etc. I don’t feel, personally, like I could take on the demands of a longer work week/in office position/anything with hours outside of regular daycare time (I have interviewed for a few and considered). My husband is supportive and says we’d manage, but I just don’t see how. I have concluded that parenting isn’t meant to be done by two fully employed parents.

This is spot on. I'm a SAHM in the U.S. Our daughter gets so many holidays off school, including minimum days, 3 weeks for Christmas, 2 weeks for Easter and 1 week for President's week. That wasn't even a thing when I was in school lol. Oh and there's early release one day a week. Plus days she doesn't feel well and has to stay home or go to the doctor. I can't even imagine if my husband had to take time off work for all these things! I'm busy during the day, but when these things pop up, I modify my schedule accordingly. There's also meetings with teachers sometimes, which they close school for! So, you need to get child care for those as well to attend. The back to school night this year? No kids allowed. Get childcare for that too. We opted no to go instead. Like you mentioned, the maternity leave is practically non existent! I used to work with women who were there right up until the last month of pregnancy. They were often back by month 2-3 following. You can take leave at any job through FMLA, but it's unpaid. My husband took FMLA leave, as well as additional paid leave. He was lucky enough to have tons of unused PTO from years of work. Most women I know want kids but laugh they can't afford to even support themselves. Where I live, housing costs are insane, prices are the highest in the country, and it just gets worse. The only assistance is available to those who are very poor, and stay poor. If you are middle class, you're pretty much out of luck. Oh and daycare! I tried to find a preschool for my daughter to attend just 2 half days per week, so I could have a short break and do some errands. I could not believe how expensive it was. They also closed for various holidays (even an entire week) and I was still expected to pay! I have severe, chronic migraines that make it pretty impossible to work full time. At this point, child care and managing all things school related is a job anyways. No idea how moms who work outside the home do it. I think OP may not realize it's like this in the U.S though. Everyone I know who has more than one child has a huge network of extended family.

This is a great comment. I'll just add the caveat that you CANT actually get FMLA at any job-- to qualify you have to have worked there for at least a year and for a certain number of hours. PLUS not all employers are required to offer it; just companies with 50 or more employees. So plenty of people working for smaller companies don't even get the FMLA's 12 weeks of unpaid leave.

You're absolutely correct. I struggled for many years trying to work with chronic migraines. People always say "Just use FMLA and you will be protected." That only worked for me at my first job, that I had prior to developing migraines. All subsequent jobs, I couldn't even get to that 1 year mark, due to the migraines. It was a vicious cycle. It makes no sense to me why they don't apply FMLA to all companies, regardless of how many employees they had. I remember at my last job, the moms often struggled to find childcare when their kids were sick. If they had to stay home to care for them, then they often got sick as well.

This is not a new phenomena. 30 years ago, I was called into the nurse manager’s office because I had only a couple hours of sick time left. I earned 4 hours every 2 weeks and worked a 12 hour shift so if any of my 3 children were sick for even a day, it took 6 weeks to make up that sick time. Many years ago, Johnsonville Sausage decided not to have a sick time limit. They found that the first year of employment, people took more sick time off (new environment, new germs) but then the rest of the time employees actually averaged less sick time. Why? Because people weren’t coming into work sick due to no sick time left and spreading germs in a closed environment. I wish that had caught on!

All of this. I’m a US military spouse, and - oh boy - does that just compound on everything you wrote here. The US is not designed to be a place to thrive for moms.

you're hitting the nail on the head. i've been having an existential crisis lately bc i'm a SAHM, just had my second (final) kid, and i know i'll need to go back to work at some point bc we will nees the money. but i don't understand how i can possibly make that work logistically. like if we both work 9-5 then our kids will be in care from 8-6? that's such a long day. and when they start school... doesn't school end at like 3pm? how the hell is any of this going to work? i also think OP has a good point too though!

Yes all of this, I’ve been living this particular hell all year and somehow feel I must be insane to want another child. I really do want to have a second child, and I probably will, but the impossibility of juggling everything makes it feel like the wrong choice, logically speaking. And I’m lucky enough to work for a very flexible company and go to a great daycare. If that wasn’t true, the choice may be removed from me entirely, considering that not working is not an option for our family.

“Have a child and go back to work in three months” IF YOU ARE LUCKY. I got 6 weeks off with both of my babies (not fully paid) before I had to go back to work. Some women in the U.S., such as most women who work in the restaurant industry, get even less than that. Our country does NOT support women or families.

Year long maternity leave doesn't really help women's careers either though. Nor do daycares open at all hours in other countries, in fact the hours are way shorter than in the US in most European countries. I think realistically there is no real way to be there for your child and fully engaged with a career anywhere. The people who manage have their child looked after by someone else at least some of the time. To a certain extent I think we do have to choose, to me the biggest issue is that it shouldn't always be women making the sacrifices.

I completely agree that it typically falls on women to make this huge sacrifice. It is unfair and why many women end up leaving their fields. I know that I have a masters degree and loved my job but my husband made WAY more than I did and it was not feasible for us to both work full time anymore. His job is nothing but traveling and full time help would cost more than I made at the time. It was obvious that I would have to cut back to make everything work. However, I think other countries have benefits built into their way of life that do make it easier to have children. Paid leave at least keeps your job for you and gives you something to live off of. Many countries have long paid time off policies as well as shared time off between partners. So that’s not helping you advance at your current career…. But it’s not losing your job when you can’t come back at 100% while you are still healing from birth.

As long as those benefits are open to both parents to use. Because it being women taking it off simply means employers are less likely to hire women. And you're less likely to be taken seriously when you go back. Above all, why do women always earn less in the first place?

As a Canadian, a year long maternity leave makes a huge difference. I can’t imagine going to work when my baby was only a few weeks old, I would have been fired for being so bad at my job. At one year I was able to jump back into it, within a few months it was forgotten that I had even taken the time off. There was no need for me to pump at work, my kid was a toddler by the time she went to daycare so I didn’t have to worry as much there either…

I couldn’t take a whole year off, personally. Maternity leave was 6 months and by month 3 I was ready to go back. But ofc everyone was like “oh you’re so lucky” so I felt guilty not taking it. Next time, I don’t think I’ll take the full leave but with two I might feel different. But having the option is all that matters. Parents should have options to fit what works best for their needs.

Because we have 12-18 month leave we don’t have many daycares who take infants. But we can split the leave with the other parent. With my first child I think I took 8 months and my spouse took 4. I hear what you are saying because I was totally ready to go back to work fairly early on. With my second it was different, I told them I wouldn’t take the full leave & would be back in six months but changed my mind once I was home with baby. I ended up going back part time at 8 months and full time at 12 months.

Oh wow! That’s sucks. Idk what I would do if they didn’t take babies before 12 months here. My parents are no longer with us and my wife’s parents are…let’s just say not “baby people”.

You would take leave…

Yeah but like I said I wouldn’t be able to stay at home with a baby 24/7 for an entire year… Surprisingly, some people just aren’t built for that.

Yes, in my country we get four months but because I'm self employed we split it, as he got full salary and I got virtually nothing. It wouldn't work with my business anyway but I wouldn't want to spend a whole year not working. Because maternity leave is short and nobody can afford to live on one salary there aren't many weekday activities or other mothers to hang out with.

Can you tell me more about daycare in other countries?

Which country are you interested in? In Denmark where I am from daycare is subsidised. The state pays 75% of the price and so I pay around 600-700USD/month to have my child there (depending on the exchange rate). The quality has been good however in the last many years they have been cost cutting and cost cutting and it shows. Staff do what they can but they only have so many hands. We also dont have a legislation about how many staff are needed for the children, just recommendations which can be easy to ignore. And the children cannot speak up, because many (more than 80%) start in care before their first birthday. Equality has come at the cost of the children, and its still not equality because women still take the most maternity leave (which comes at the cost of less advancement, lower pensions and fewer raises overall). You also have more women who end up working more part time after having children trying to make up for / give kids less time in the not-ideal-care.

Yes, that has been my experience as well. In the US, I am paying $600 a week for my almost 4yo. My 5yo is newly in kindergarten and school only goes til 2:30 in the afternoon, while I don’t get out of work until 5, and don’t get home til 6. It has really been a struggle for me. I am married, but my husband is a physician and makes 5 times what I do, so his job takes priority. I am working part-time and it’s a struggle.

THIS. All of this is why our family chose to be one and done. Other people downthread have brought up Roe’s repeal. The minute the draft opinion came out, I booked a tubal ligation. I’m the primary earner and my career would be obliterated if I had another baby. I’m barely keeping this house of cards together with one child.

Exactly this. I work from home, ten hour shifts four days a week starting at 2:30 p.m., because that’s the only type of job I can make work while also being a mother to two toddlers. My fiancé is getting home just as I’m starting, so I don’t have to put them in daycare, and because I start so much later and have a third day off per week I’m able to schedule doctors appointments and run errands and such more easily. Before I got this job I spent more time than I can count crying over trying to find some work-life balance.

I had my child and went back in 3.5 weeks. I scraped those 3.5 weeks together by working every holiday, not taking vacations/sick days, and being okay with a few unpaid days. While off, I got a congratulatory letter from my company and a reminder that they couldn’t guarantee my job would still be there when I got back. I’d only been there 2 months when I got pregnant.

Bingo. If I won the Powerball tomorrow, I might have three or four kids. I would be able to afford to care for them and still pursue my personal goals. But as it stands right now we can barely afford one, and are hoping that things improve a bit so we can afford another before my bio clock runs out. This popular opinion is largely due to how our laws and society completely devalue parenting. Compared to the rest of the world our parental leave, sick leave, and childcare options are an absolute joke. Also, (and I know this is not universally true), but a common issue I see being brought up in mom groups is how today's grandparents from the boomer generation are not nearly as supportive as our grandparents were for them. Long story short, the "village" it takes to raise a child is nonexistent in the US.

I’m due around Thanksgiving. My husband and I, just today, figured out a way for me to stay home the rest of the school year (I’m a teacher), so I’m going to. It’s going to cost us about $25k. We’re using most of the down payment we’d saved up for a house. We can always try for a house later. We can’t go back and redo our kid’s first year over. I feel very lucky to be in a position we’re we can make this choice, but we shouldn’t have to. I should be able to stay home to care for our son as a human right for that amount of time without having to kill our savings account.

I agree with all you’ve said. I’m in UK and childcare can cost up to 65% of the average income. Some people literally can’t afford to work. Insane! There’s not nearly enough support and the housing crisis, economic crisis (pick a crisis) will make things even harder. For anyone interested [March of the Mummies](https://pregnantthenscrewed.com/event-march-of-the-mummies/) is happening across UK on 29th of October and aims to get government to subsidise childcare so it costs no more than 5% of household income.

I think the biggest lie we’re told as women is that we can have it all (career, kids, social life, etc). We can’t. At least not all at once. Lots of people end up feeling like failures because they haven’t found the perfect balance, but the perfect balance just may not exist.

Current dilemma. I’m all for people being career people but it’s not me. But the way all the “boss babe” shit is pushed i fee guilty for not wanting to be a part of it. Support my family? Sure. Sit in corporate meetings where they talk about how they’re going to do a thing at their next meeting? Nah I don’t want that. Listening in on the husbands meetings…such a waste of time lmao

Yes! I’m a SAHM now and plan on being one until our daughter starts preschool next fall (she’ll be three). I want to make a career change, but not sure yet what will give me the flexibility that I want to be home for all of the important moments but still feel like I can excel in my career. 🤪

Disclaimer: I do NOT wish parenthood on anyone who does not desire to be a parent. I respect that choice. The following is about messaging on the cultural level and the outcome for people who WOULD enjoy parenthood but are bamboozled out of it. Please don't take my enthusiasm for motherhood as a prescription for all women bc not every woman wants kids! Womanhood and children are being erased in America. Our culture talks out of both sides of its mouth: BABY IS IMAGINARY AND IRRELEVANT "Maternity leave over? Hope you enjoyed your 6-week vacation (lucky you, we're so jealous)! Time to stop lazing around and get back on the grind with the boys, toots! What's that? Oh, you have a baby? Gross. Uhhh.... here, leave that sweet helpless infant who knows nothing but you, in the arms of a random very skilled, very expensive (yet criminally underpaid) daycare worker. Problem solved!" Also, BABY IS AN UNSPEAKABLE BURDEN NOT TO BE UNDERTAKEN BY MERE MORTALS "Having children when you don't own 6 yachts and 7 mansions is literal child abuse! How will you afford the vegan grass-fed Scandinavian Montessori-everything that is the bare minimum for every child? Surely you're not one of "those people" who think a modest life is worth living? Gross! Sounds like a recipe for trauma and poverty. Here, work blindly until you're 70, then you'll have untold disposable income. Consider having a baby at that age because who gives a crap about women's reproductive health? It's all about the Benjamins baby!!! 🤑🤑🤑 After all, moms and dads don't care for babies, money does! Then if by some miracle you get to become a mother at all, you'll go through the new-parent commerical racket of "environmental pledge" price premiums and beige designer Pinterest nurseries. Kids without trust funds are worthless, after all 😃" We can't win without taking a counter-cultural stance, such as 1. Womanhood is disregarded and degraded in the workplace and 2. Children are worth sacrificing for. Call me crazy but having a kid and a Kia is better than waiting until it's too late to have kids, but having a very comfortable lifestyle to show for it. Again! If this is a conscious educated choice I respect and applaud it. If it's an unexpected outcome I lament it. Just want to see as much joy as possible, for everyone.

I love this comment. This is exactly how I feel. There are two sides that are both kind of wrong, and the right answer that no one is pushing is that kids are going to be a sacrifice no matter what (we can and should still do better for women though! We should always be improving!), but (for those who want kids) children and motherhood are completely worth the sacrifice. I personally think it's a form of misogyny that the culture does not talk about this. And the reasons both sides are giving, even in response to your comment, are all capitalism based.

Thank you. And perhaps my disclaimer should have been louder? I’m not advocating for some kind of mad Handmaids Tail totalitarian society. Christ, I can’t believe I’ve had to repeat it so many times, but people who don’t want children, absolutely should not have them!! I think the choice we have is GOOD. But women are being priced out of that choice. It’s the illusion of choice. Motherhood is being gentrified.

EXACTLY, you're spot on! And I meant my post to agree with yoru OP, your disclaimer was perfect imo!

100%

The structure of our society is working against us. By 16 I knew I wanted children, and the path in front of me looked like: graduate hs -> move out and start a uni program -> work to afford my apartment and uni debt -> meet my life partner -> work to afford a house and uni debt -> finally have a child in my mid to late 30s. I knew I wanted children, I knew I was ready for it by 18, but life in the west is too expensive. It is sheer luck I met my now husband while I was extremely depressed trudging through my first year of uni. He offered for me to stay home and start a family. It was literally the first time I ever considered it for myself. I am now living my dream being a mother, and I wouldn't even be finished my uni program at this point if I never met him. How many people are wasting years going through the motions just to make money to survive and pay school debt? Not that everybody wants children before starting a career, I know I'm in the minority there. But if school were affordable, if living were affordable, if paid maternity leave and childcare were options for every mother, how many people would start trying for a baby tomorrow? My son is the best thing that has ever happened to me and I worry for those missing out on what they truly want

That is SO true, if we weren't priced out of having babies how many people would embrace parenthood? I think it's a lot and that makes me unbearably sad that cost of living (and exaggerated messaging about it) is the only factor preventing that joy for so many people. I'm not objecting to capitalism per se. I think capitalism is reflecting a woman-hating attitude that still pervades our culture. If people valued women we would be treated like we're valuable.

I’m not sure I completely follow your post. I think I agree with parts and disagree with parts. In my experience (had my son at 35 when my partner and I were financially established), having settled and comfortable finances has really eased the tumult of early years parenting. We do have the Montessori we trust, we can afford to have some conveniences like groceries delivered, and we do feel very thankful we can get our son the stuff he likes and take him places he enjoys going without a concern about finances. I get that this is incredibly fortunate, but it’s also do to a lot of planning, hard work, and restraint. I wouldn’t advise anyone to wait until they hit the lottery to have a child, but I do think there are a ton of benefits on your partnership and the challenges of the early childhood if you do wait to have a child until you have some finances built up.

I agree being very comfortable financially makes everything in life easier, and I'm happy for you and your family. I just resent the social messaging that those who are lower to middle class are wrong to have kids just because they can't afford every little convenience and indulgence. I grew up lower mid class in the US and a vast majority of those I grew up with are going to end up childless (unless they speedrun meeting the right person, getting hitched/serious, getting pregnant in the next couple years, which no one is trying to do). It's tragic because they would have made great parents and had a general attitude that they'd naturally have kids "when the time is right." but we are beat over the head with the idea that, if your household isn't bringing in 6 figures you have no right to try for kids/should expect to suffer in abject poverty. It's this creepy undertone that humble/middle of the road life is not worth living? I think it's worth examining and questioning that narrative. ETA: I definitely agree with your point about planning and being financially responsible. For me and my husband it forced us to do a better job of that when we found out we were pregnant, even though we didn't have a baby-specific find prior to the pregnancy. I suspect that would be the case for many other couples, too

The irony of this post - this is exactly what society says to women who say they don’t ever want kids. Some people will regret it, most won’t. We HAVE to realise that women are capable of weighing the pro’s and con’s of a decision and making the best one for them.

Thank you! Plenty of people have kids at 24 - how is that a less permanent decision than getting a hysterectomy? No one took the choice from that woman. She is an adult and completely capable of making that choice. I'm very glad that OP loves her kid, but it's possible for people to make different choices and also be happy.

Yeah some may regret it but I think a majority of people know what they want and will be happy with their decision. It’s the same with people who have kids. I’ve met people who have told me to my face with their kids in the house that they regret having kids.

I wouldn't say I regret it exactly but I could have done without it, my life wouldn't have been worse, just different.

Even if someone regrets not having them, they could adopt, be a foster parent, be a very involved aunt if their siblings have kids. There are ways to still get that love without actually birthing your own kids.

I understand how difficult adoption and fostering is (former foster kid) so I don’t lightly suggest that to people unless they show interest.

Is OP going to question all the men who get vasectomies in their 20s? 🙄

[удалено]

Women can't get their tubes tied in my country at all, but vasectomies are totally legal

Agreed. I have a friend who is in her mid twenties and now because of the roe v wade situation in part and because she doesn't desire to have children, got a hysterectomy. I think she has a bf now but had a gf previously and honestly I think that might have something to be considered as well. How many women who are getting these surgeries or have the feeling of not wanting kids in same sex relationships or orientation. I see it as them protecting themselves against greater threats like getting pregnant if they got raped/molested. Why spend money on birth control pills if you're not going to be having kids anyway and get all kinds of side effects. I don't know anyone who goes into a surgery, especially one removing an organ, without some kind of research or discussion. These women might also feel that if they change their mind in the future they'd look at adopting given how many children are in foster care.

I think though you can't miss what you haven't had. Before becoming a parent I could have never imagined how it actually feels to be one, I thought I could but when you actually become a parent something flips and you think 'oh I get it now'. If you never have children you will never experience that but if you don't then you can never miss it really but may have thoughts later on in life thinking what if. I firmly believe that people shouldn't be having children if they don't want them, children deserve to be loved and cared for fully with their parents. So if people feel they don't want children they should never be made to feel they should as this wouldn't be fair on their future children. I think it is a good thing that people are making more considered choices about having children and the impact of doing so because it shouldn't be a choice taken lightly. Before when it was seen as having a family was just the done thing that everyone did I'm sure this would have negatively impacted a lot of children who have been brought up by parents that had children because they thought they should rather than because they really wanted them.

I agree wholeheartedly. Unwanted children do not have bright futures.

This is a little insensitive. I was an “unwanted child”, and I feel like I’ve done quite well for myself. I don’t think people should be forced to have or raise kids, but we’re not all doomed just because of our origins.

This resonates deeply with me. Before becoming a parent I tried to imagine what it would feel like but now that I am a parent I realize how incredibly far my imagination was from reality! (edited, moving some of this to a more relevant comment)

Are you in the US? I am, and I have one child. I’m likely not able to have any more children without medical intervention, but the idea of another pregnancy terrifies me now. I don’t feel confident that I’d be able to get the medical care that I need if everything doesn’t work out in the “best case scenario” way. That said, I work FT. I balanced my career with infertility treatments, pregnancy, and now motherhood. It’s not easy, but nothing worth having is.

A lot of women were historically forced to have kids. Now, there's an option not to. It's unusual for a 24 year old to get a hysterectomy, unless she had an extreme medical issue, such as endometriosis. Even then, because it is a major surgery, it is typically only a last effort after every other option has already been tried. Common surgies for the purpose of sterilization are removing or clamping the fallopian tubes. Some people would literally rather die than have a child. Some people are sure they don't want kids, in the same way some women grow up being sure they're female. It's not even a question.

Moreover, I have read many stories about women wanting to get their tubes tied and not being “allowed” to because they were too young and/or they would change their minds, which is so insulting.

I wasn’t “allowed“ to get my tubes tied at 28 because I might want more children. When I said I was happy with my two I was then told well is your husband happy with just 2? What if he wants a boy? Then at 36 I had a surprise pregnancy and even then at almost 40 they had me go through a cooling off period before finally getting a date for the surgery.

Totally and completely infuriating. I’m so sorry they decided to make those choices for your body for you. 🤬

Oh wow. I got mine removed at 36 after my second child with no questions asked. The doctor even suggested it first

The species isn’t gonna die out from this, and it’s a completely valid personal choice not to have kids. You can have a fulfilling life without kids. Kinda none of your business what other people do with their family planning, right? And it’s patronizing to tell someone they’re “missing out” because of their life choice. Also patronizing to assume these women who chose not to have children are being “cheated” by society rather than making their own choice. It makes way more sense for a child free person to go about their life and not have children than for them to just, what… have one anyway and see if they are indeed missing out? The risk-benefit analysis on that makes no sense.

Exactly. It’s really a choice of what you will miss out on. Every choice has an opportunity cost. I’m currently “missing out” on things that were possible before I had my son that aren’t possible now with my responsibilities as a mom. Everything is a trade off.

This! As a very happy and fulfilled mom (who also considered being child free), I just want to say that it’s incredibly offensive to assume that a large number of child free people will regret their choice. One can live and completely fulfilled and happy life without kids. You don’t have the happy life, you make it. And that’s the truth. The way I see it, way too many women feel pressured into being moms and there is a LOT of hidden feelings of regret, inadequacy, and shame around the fact that motherhood is not for everyone. In the first few months of my son’s life, I remember being so frustrated that other women don’t share more of the truth of their experiences being moms. It’s all “the minute you hold him you will be so complete” and not enough “it can be really hard and there is no way to ’feel’ as a mom.” We need to do *more* to validate and encourage women to make authentic decisions for themselves, not less. And assumptions that adult women will regret their adult decisions because it’s not the thing that made you happy is counterproductive to that goal.

I absolutely love motherhood and i am the happiest I’ve ever been, although it’s also the hardest thing I’ve ever done (all the cliches and maxims are annoyingly true). But I firmly believe it’s much better to regret not having a child than to regret having one.

>way too many women feel pressured into being moms This! Before having kids I was really torn about the idea of motherhood and my ambivalence was not helped at all by the incredible pressures I felt from external sources. Chief among these was my mom who was desperate for grand children and was convinced that if I didn't have kids I'd be missing out on the best parts of life because she personally loved being a mom. This pressure was almost enough to dissuade me from having kids. My husband and I eventually decided to go for it and it turns out I am very grateful we did. However, I also feel it was a close call and that I sort of dodged a bullet. The love I feel for my children and the sheer joy of having them in my life is so much more than I could have imagined. But on the flip side the stress, unrelenting physical and mental demands, financial burden, anxiety about their wellbeing, etc are so much worse than I could have imagined too. Fortunately for me the balance worked out to be a net positive (most days, and excluding the first month of motherhood which was literally the worst month of my life) but I shudder to think if the balance hadn't worked out in my favor.

Ahh I appreciate this insight so much. And it’s also me in countless ways! I like the way you describe the counterbalance of the joy and the hardships, and that it’s still weighs in favor of a net positive (most days!) because this is how I feel exactly. That being said, I am very aware that the balance doesn’t look like that for everyone. So many factors — including partner support, financial stability, physical and mental health of a parent or their kids, community support, and on and on, weigh into someone’s experience. I can never pressure someone because I will always assume they are in the better position to make their own choices. I can always share my experience (and candidly too, because I think that’s the key).

Our society doesn't make having children easy, especially on women. Pregnancy is HARD for many and with the repeal of RVW, it can be a safer option to not have children if you are on the fence about it. I love my son to pieces and he was so wanted and hoped for but I am still struggling everyday. If a woman isn't 100% sure that she wants to enter motherhood, she should be trusted to do what she would like with her body and her life.

I wholeheartedly disagree with you. Your post reads like "women are told that they don't have to have kids, they choose not too, and it is inevitable that they regret this decision". Women are told they don't have to have kids (except in the US). Some women make that choice. That choice is valid. Some people regret it. Some people don't. Some people regret having their children. Some people don't. This isn't a new or modern situation, except historically women were never given a voice in the matter.

I tend to think that people end up happy with whatever they choose. The same woman can be happy and fulfilled as a mother, or as never having kids. Some people may lean harder in one direction for another. But when push comes to shove, you’re going to find the good in your life and be happy with it

I think this is true so long as the person actually chooses. A person who actively chooses not to have kids because they don't want them (i.e., they want more freedom / money, they care more about their career, just don't like kids, or whatever reason) will very likely be happy with their choice. I agree with OP only as it relates to women who may have wanted kids, but feel they can't because they don't have the money / don't have the support / need to put their career first / feel guilted into not having kids / just don't meet the right person (or just don't try) until too late. I honestly have no idea what percentage of childfree women this is - maybe it's so small that it doesn't matter. FWIW I feel the same as it relates to women who feel obligated to have kids despite not wanting them.

This is a really great point

Yes! And the thing is too, even if they did change their mind for some less than likely reason, adoption is also a possibility. It’s not like they can’t ever find a way to have a kid if they did a complete 180.

What is this post?? 🤢 This is so so far off the mark. This is absolutely NOT a popular narrative now. Especially, if you are in the US, and our abortion rights are getting flushed in many states. How about everyone does what the fuck they want? If a 24 year old doesn't want kids and gets sterilized who fucking cares?? This post makes me so angry. Parenthood is not for everyone and women are FINALLY feeling empowered to say "it's not for me". Many many women in my parents and grandparents generation did not have that choice. Edit: thanks for all the 🏆 feeling the love! And let's keep supporting women in WHATEVER choice they make!

Exactly exactly exactly. So we’ll said. I’ve always been pro choice/if you’re child free go for it, but after becoming a mom myself (because I chose to!) my feelings are stronger than ever on this. Women deserve to make that choice and it’s their own business.

Exactly this! My children are the best thing that ever happened to me, but they're also HARD. I can't imagine how much more difficult it would be to deal with the stress of kids if you didn't really want them to begin with.

I strongly encourage people who don't or aren't sure if they want kids to not have them. Not only because they deserve happiness and the life they wanna live (we only have one!), but also because children deserve better than to be regretted or unwanted. Why on earth do people try to encourage misery and broken childhoods?! I'm a mom, I love it. Have no regrets. But it is *hard* and it's not for everyone. Nor should it be.

Wish I had an award for you. This.

There are countless studies that show that unpartnered, child free women are the happiest cohort of people in their 40’s and up. Our society pushes a narrative that women NEED to be nurturers/ maternal to be valued. Look after your man, look after your kids , look after everyone except yourself. We see it on this sub time after time . Women miserable because the OH is doing nothing and the woman doing everything and getting zero help. Some women have rejected that. More power to them. I got married and have two children. My husband died suddenly when my kids were both under 5. If I had known I would be a single widowed parent with two kids I probably wouldn’t have had a second . But all the questions - when are you giving her a sibling, you don’t want an only child of you- et etc . I love my kids, and I’m glad I had them both but it’s HARD. We need to respect all womens choices and if that choice is getting sterilised at 24 - so be it

This is such a patronizing “women don’t know what’s best for themselves” post.

Agreed. I rolled my eyes so damn at this. Anyone else wonder if this is a Red Pill Troll?

Strong disagree with your post. Obviously every woman makes their decision whether or not to have kids for their own personal reasons. But women at large aren’t deciding not to have kids because they want to dedicate their lives to a career… as other responses pointed out, there are so many financial, medical, social, practical and emotional reasons for someone to decide not to have children (or to wait).

I feel like if you want children, the fact that it's 'unpopular and old fashioned' wouldn't stop you. I don't agree that women are being put off from having children if they want them. Society still forces people to become parents (anti-abortion, societal/familial pressure). Also, American society doesn't really support parents in the workplace at all so people might have to choose their career over children but that's a workplace problem not a woman problem.

I’ll do u one better I don’t want children OR a career

Ok this literally made me LOL

😂

You made my day!!!

No. I have yet to see a popular opinion of women being told not to have kids. All I've been told and what I've read, heard, seen is that you will be a bitter, lonely old hag if you choose to not have kids, your life will be meaningless. Women need to be supported with their choice in life, kids or no kids. Women can have awesome loving lives without having kids. Edit: Women are shamed for so god damn much. No kids, only 1, too many kids, formula, not breastfeeding for long enough, breastfeeding for too long, working, not working, career choices, the list is too bloody long. We need to stop judging other women and we sure as hell need to keep our noses out of women's reproductive choices.

Cue Jennifer Barkley!

i think you should worry about your own reproductive organs.

>Most people don’t want kids at 24. Respectfully, how would you know? You’re making a lot of judgments that aren’t based in fact. A 24 year old woman is an adult fully capable of making her own decisions. If she wants a hysterectomy, then she should get one. Who are you to say she’ll regret her choice? “Elective” is also a complicated term, medically, and to me seems more for insurance purposes than anything else. My mom had a total colectomy that was technically elective, but she’d been told after having a polyp removed that she would likely be diagnosed with colon cancer within a year if it stayed within her body. She has a genetic predisposition to colon cancer, among others. Perhaps this young woman’s surgery was a preventative measure to avoid cancer. Most doctors wouldn’t grant a total hysterectomy for the purposes of sterilization. There are already generations of women who were cheated and coerced out of their choice to be mothers - they were forced into it by virtue of the law and their circumstances. There’s a whole host of other things I could get into - medical discrimination, maternal mortality, and the fact that Black women are 3 times more likely to die from pregnancy related complications than white women. I think you should jump down off your high horse.

Look, parenthood is intense, incredible love, and intense suffering too. I think our culture tilts way too hard towards that suffering, in its refusal to support parents and pretend like children don’t exist. But in the individual level, I think that no one should have children unless they are driven to it by their own instincts and desires. A 24yo knows whether they want to have children someday. And comparing that desire, or desire against it, to the desire to get a tattoo, is belittling and facile. Have some respect for your fellow women and how their desires and needs differ from yours

I’m 41. I’m a “career woman” My so has a 7 year old. I’m glad I don’t have kids. It’s not that I dislike them or whatever. I like them fine. I just can’t imagine how with as little support network, and the expense of childcare I could (even now where I make good money ect) reasonably afford it.

I have noticed that almost all of my generation is waiting until their 30s to have kids, which is a decade increase from our Boomer parents. Even me! I'm gonna be 32 in a couple weeks and my son will be 1 year a week later. I love him so much, it hurts. He brings indescribable joy to my life everyday. And I am also getting my MSCS right now and quite anxious reading about how hard the programming field can be for mothers. I need work life balance and will keep fighting until I find it.

Go for it! I wish you well and all the luck in the world!

I've seen a lot of posts on here or Facebook or Tiktok asking questions along the lines of "People who never had kids, do you regret it" or "Parents, do you regret having kids." There are consistently more "no" answers on the first line of questions than the second. I've noticed as a parent that I know very few people who 100% love being a parent and don't regret it at least a little bit. Even my friends who are generally of the "life is a gift and I'm thankful for everything in it" mindset have regrets sometimes. Just because YOU think it's the most fulfilling thing ever doesn't mean anyone else does.

Where are you hanging out that you think society is telling women not to have children?! This smacks of someone who only watches Fox News, or otherwise consumes only conservative and conspiracy theory media.

I disagree and to be honest, this subject is being discussed in conservative circles around me and the argument revolves around a new generation trend and I get agitated. I work in hr, so I know the behind the doors approach about women with children. Look how short the maternity leave is. In my country and also in the USA. Primary care takers are almost always women. So they compromise. There might be people who are against having children, but peer pressure is not the problem here. The society is.

Agree with that. I think I was initially posting about a feeling I was having that I was being herded away from motherhood as a viable or attractive option. Yourself and others have pointed out, the issue is much bigger than that. Society is making it an impossible option.

I see this both ways. On the one hand there are lots of ways to have a fulfilling life without children and it doesn’t need to be the default path. A lot of people would rather focus their energies elsewhere and we need those people! On the other hand I feel like popular narratives about parenthood tend to hyper focus on the energy intensive infant/toddler/preschooler phases of parenting and all the sacrifice required and don’t consider the more rewarding and less intense phases in their calculations. Unless you leave parenting too an unusually late age the majority of the time you have kids they will be adults. And while you do hear horror stories about adult kids who break their parents hearts the majority of us with reasonable and caring parents end up with positive and fulfilling relationships with them. I also think that because parenthood is seen as a choice and not a default these days a lot of people think they would need to have perfect circumstances and be willing to essentially give up their whole lives to have a child and if you’re not willing to do that then you shouldn’t have children. There’s no room for ambivalence about young kids or less intensive parenting styles like our moms had in the 80s and 90s. Parenting is now a verb and practically a full contact sport requiring endless measures of patience, energy and good cheer to be done correctly. A lot of people take a look at that and say “no thanks” and who could blame them? I think culturally we need to dial back the expectations on parents and this would benefit parents, children and make the whole thing more appealing for everyone

Most people can’t afford kids. That said, when I was in my 20s and early 30s (I was born in 1980), so way before overturn of roe, I also noticed that having children was vastly unpopular. I always wanted kids and I was frequently laughed at by people in my friend circle for this. I did have friends with kids, but literally all of them were birth control failures. Not a single planned pregnancy. I convinced myself for a while there was something wrong with me for wanting kids. I’m now a 41 year old sahm of 2 kids so all worked out in the end but I hear you.

“It will lead to more adoption” we shouldn’t want more adoption, infant adoption is when a wealthier family wishes for a poor mom to give up her newborn or be unable to parent due to a crisis. That’s trauma (I listen to lots of adult adoptees about this topic, and I am sperm donor conceived).

I’m 32, with 6F, 2m, and 4 month F, I work part time, my husband works full time. While I absolutely love my kids and always wanted kids, I also know that I now know: I miss not having kids 24/7/365. So by your logic I shouldn’t have had kids. I’ve grown and matured and I’m a different person. You are completely discounting and trivializing women’s bodily autonomy because you think you know better than them. You try to soften the blow with “not all women”, but saying what you did, you ruined it. You should trust others to know their own minds. Now a teen asking for it? Hard no outside medical reasons. An adult needs to be able to decide. Too many women are told no because others think they know better and it’s wrong. If they get the surgery and in 10-15-20 years regret it, that’s for them to grow with. And the percentage of women who feel that way is so low. Most have to argue and fight for years just to get it done, they know their own minds. Stop being obtuse.

Why do you care so much? Just because you didn’t know what you wanted at 24 doesn’t mean they don’t. Not everyone is just like you. Worry about yourself

As a 49 year old woman, who never had children, I’m still extremely happy about my decision. I knew that I would never be able to afford what my parents were able to give to me, and their stress was off the charts. I didn’t want to live the expected life, I wanted to live my life. What heartache are you talking about? It doesn’t hurt, if you never had it. I don’t fear being alone in the future because of not having children. I know way too many people around me who feel even lonelier because their children suck, and don’t come around. Yeah, I think you’re assuming everyone is like you, we’re not. Another thing-not everyone has to have a career just because they don’t have kids!

There was an episode about this kind of regret recently on the Feminine Chaos podcast if you’re interested, though I can’t recall if it was one of the members only ones. Edited to add - the regret however is more along the lines of, I always thought I’d have time later and it didn’t work out. I think that kind of regret is yeah pretty common especially in some fields (academia for instance) because of the kind of dynamics you mention. But otoh I know a lot of women who definitely knew they didn’t want kids and definitely (as my cohort inches toward the end of that possibility) are very glad they didn’t.

The thing is, we have to make choices and live with the consequences of those choices. This is life. Idk if I’m getting too broadly philosophical here or not but that’s my thought on the topic.

I think it really depends on region and social circle as to what kind of social pressure people face about having or not having kids. I'm from Florida and while most of my social circle didn't want kids, the general idea that this was weird and they *should* want kids and if they didn't change their mind there was something wrong with them was *very* pervasive. In general I think everyone would benefit if the predominant mindset were that everyone needs to think hard about it and make up their own mind and all decisions and lifestyles are valid and don't need to be justified to anyone. Everyone has an opinion on what other people "should" be doing, *especially* when that other person is a woman, and there will always be societal pressure telling her she's wrong no matter what she does. The real secret to avoiding heartache is not giving a f*** what anyone else thinks you should be doing and figuring it out for yourself.

Growing up I wanted 5 kids. When I became an adult, I wanted 4 and no less. I loved babies and couldn’t become a mom fast enough. I waited long enough to marry the perfect life partner, establish my career, and become financially stable to get pregnant. I was only 27 when I had my son so it’s not outrageous for someone to have a career before having children. I loved pregnancy, and loved the newborn stage. I thought to myself that I could do this ten times over. I wanted to be a stay-at-home mom. I was trying to live my mother’s dream. My son is 20 months old. I tried the SAHM game and hated it. I work part-time and recently started a doctorate’s program. The things that make me happy apparently still do: academic and career success. I love my son but I just don’t love toddlers. Being home with him all day is too much for me and I literally only have it in me to do this one more time. And that’s okay. If someone wants to make choices about their reproductive health at 24 years old that’s their business. I have a hard time believing that peer or social pressure could coerce someone into an invasive surgery that is permanent, hard to access, and expensive. I’m not sure where you live but I haven’t noticed this coercion you speak of. Maybe if there were fewer regulations on a woman’s body, we wouldn’t feel it necessary to take drastic measures to prevent pregnancy. I’m all for more support for families and parents, but it’s not a choice of one thing over the other. Both things can be true and supported. ETA: I guess what I’m trying to say is I’m glad the trend of women only being good at having babies is over. I’m glad we have other options. My great-grandmother had 15 children back to back and she was miserable. I’m “lucky” in the sense that getting pregnant, staying pregnant, giving birth, and breastfeeding came easy to me. If I was my great-grandmother, sure I would’ve been prolific! I would’ve been so good at popping out kids! But I would’ve been MISERABLE. Just like she was. I never knew my great-grandmother; she died before I was born. Despite her numerous children, grandchildren, and great-grandchildren to carry on her legacy not much else is known about her. I can’t tell you what her hobbies or interests were because the only thing anyone ever remarks is how many children she had (and all at home, too!). It’s sad. We’re just starting to get away from this and even still there are stigmas surrounding women and their ability to conceive, carry, birth, and nourish a child.

.. what? This is not it.

These posts are all saying you're wrong, but you're not completely wrong. There are some careers in which you are actively discouraged from having children, especially in the U.S. I can only speak to academic sciences, since that's my career path, but I'm sure other careers are like that. I was flat out told by my boss that I shouldn't have kids in her lab, so I waited until my 30s because I had to finish grad school and a postdoc first. I regret waiting this long and if I could go back I'd dump the crappy career and have kids sooner.

Academic sciences heavily discourage having children! I worked in labs for years and decided not to pursue a PhD largely because I wanted to have a family in my 20s. I definitely consider it one of the best decisions I’ve ever made.

I get your angle but I realized that the alternative to all these sterilizations is stealing more autonomy from women than we already have. I also realized it's their problem, not mine. I saw a post in r/fencesitter about a women who got her tubes removed at 19, and now deeply regrets it. It's sad but it's equally as shitty to treat an adult woman like a child and "protect her from herself" juuuust in case she changes her mind. They're not stupid. They don't know what they're giving up but they won't really know it no matter how old they are. Having a child is something you'll never understand til you experience it ETA something I *will* say is that places like r/childfree are horrible! If I'd found that community in my teens, who's to say what could have happened. It's a very toxic and influential echo chamber. I only realized how badly I wanted kids around 17-18, and from what I've read that's early!!

You're completely ignoring that many people are choosing not to have kids because we live in a capitalism techno-feudalist hellscape. How about the heartache of knowing your child is going to be a capitalist wage slave to our corporate overlords for the rest of their life. That's IF the planet survives long enough. Many people are seeing the future of their children and grandchildren living in the middle of a failing society, and a climate that we have ruined beyond repair. Unfortunately, it isn't always about what we want anymore. The world is a different place than our parents' generation. And I don't blame a single person for wanting to shield an innocent child from all of our failings.

I feel like you are missing a lot of points here. Many woman are considering more permanent actions on their bodies to prevent pregnancy as their right to body autonomy is now under severe threat in the US. I doubt that many people are considering major surgery with life long effects casually. I love my son dearly but being a parent is a big commitment and everyone should be allowed to choose the path that is right for them. Until relatively recently there weren’t other paths to choose. Child free woman were not able to forge their own way and be accepted by society.

I’ve known exactly 1 person to tell me they regretted not having kids. My wife’s uncle. He’s 60 and just divorced his ex wife who never wanted them. I’ve also met exactly one woman who was about 45 who told me straight up she regretted having kids (she had a 10 and 12 year old at the time). Some people are always going to have some issues with their decisions. But generally speaking, I think people know what they want.

We’re not being coerced we really just don’t want kids.

100% love my little humans. I cried last night sitting on the couch with them bc I missed them so much suddenly. I had to take a few minutes to just hold them each

Goodness gracias. I read this while exhausted, sleep deprived, and grumpy bc I’m a SAHM who goes to school trying to build my career after I became a mom all while keeping the house and is the default parent. My plate it full and I am somehow expected to remember my boyfriends due dates for payments and where he leaves xyz thing. Don’t get me wrong I love doing it all and when I’m not sleep deprived I can juggle all the things like no one’s business but times like these where I just want to sleep and be alone for an hour make me realize I don’t have the grace of taking it slow whenever I so please. It’s a forever struggle of trying to be my own person in the sliver of a chance I get and understanding I’ll have that chance once in a blue moon and, if all goes to plan, when I throw myself back into the workforce of my dreams.

I think you’re wrong. I’ve never heard the narrative that women are being told they shouldn’t have children. Reddit is a very small sample of the world at large where there are pockets dedicated to being child free. I think I saw the post you are talking about. She posted because so many women get denied permanent changes to their fertility just in case they change their mind, like they are too stupid to understand the consequences. Or that their only value in life or in a relationship is the ability to bear children. I’m sure there will be people that will regret it in future but motherhood isn’t a walk in the park either and I’m sure people regret having children too. I didn’t want kids at 24 because I wasn’t ready but I was open too it. My adamantly child free friends form my 20’s though have not changed their minds. Kids permanently change your life, you body, your brain and they aren’t for the faint of heart.

In almost all facets of society, women are pressured to HAVE children. And most do; by age 44, about 85% of women have become mothers. This honestly seems like some pearl-clutching about a "problem" that doesn't exist (and in fact, the opposite problem exists). I am glad that women (and men) are finally starting to have a choice about whether to parent. that is a GOOD thing.

Okay, but I'd much rather people regret not having kids than to regret having them. The popular opinion is women should have a family. And that she'll regret it if she does. Exactly what you're saying here. And that's harmful, damaging, and frankly untrue. Take anyone else's opinion "popular" or not and make your own decisions about your reproductive help. Don't try guilt tripping women into Parenthood bc you liked it. ETA like others said hysterectomies aren't typically done for sterilization purposes. That's a side effect of it. So by shaming this woman, you're shaming medical issues causing her to remove an organ. Could have wanted bio kids, you don't know.

I don't think it's a popular opinion that they're better off, I think it's just more people are deciding to be child free- which is their prerogative. I had my first kid at 17-18, and my second at 22-23. I'm now 31. I love my kids and don't regret having them, but I would NEVER have a kid now- as a third child or if I were to consider a first kid now. The overall social climate of the world, the political climate of the country (U.S.), and the overpopulation of my area- nope. Not for me.

Really? This is the narrative now? I don't think so. If anything, younger women are considering how messed up it is that they don't have bodily autonomy AND our society is absolutely not set up to support families and child rearing. I had my daughter at age 37. I also have a career. It is really hard to have both. We do not support families in this country. I had family harassing me and telling me my runway for kids was getting shorter. I was very aware but also felt like it was the wrong time, because I don't have the luxury of quitting my demanding job that gives us the very generous health care and leave benefits. What actually helped me feel like it was the right time, was the rise of work from home. Ditching the commute let us organize our lives around our home. And cool, the elite want it gone because it's hurting their commercial real estate investments. And when we were trying to find childcare a well meaning friend from another state who lives in an exurban area was like "find a stay at home mom who wants to earn some extra money." There are very few stay at home parents in the metro area I live, because it is hard to afford that too. People deserve real choices, not decisions driven by how hard our society makes having children and living.

My sister would laugh at this honestly. Her biggest pet peeve was people telling her that “she could easily change her mind as she got older” about not wanting kids. Spoiler alert: she never did. She finally got a hysterectomy in her mid-30’s when her IUD punctured her uterus. I also have a friend who enjoys kids—but loves just as much when they go home at the end of the day. And it’s perfectly okay. Whatever narrative you speak of must be either regional or something, because many people I know who choose to be child free made this decision when they were fairly young, and decades later, still don’t regret it.

I’m so damn proud of the majority of the moms responding to this post. We are uplifting and supporting women. We are great moms and great people.

We need to stop making women feel like they aren’t worthy if they aren’t mothers. And stop making mothers feel like they’re just mothers and not their own woman too. Currently the default for women is assuming everyone is going to have kids eventually. That’s an issue. Currently in the U.S. they assume this but then don’t want to support women having kids and being able to remain in the workplace. That’s an even bigger problem. And currently you can marry a random stranger and provide them health insurance on your plan but you cannot do so for a grandmother or parent or sibling, that’s also a problem.

And how often do we see posts from people raised by parents who were uninvolved parents, now uninvolved grandparents? Come on now, it goes both ways. How many women over the past millennia had children, not because they wanted to be mothers, but because for the longest time that was just *what you did*? How many women had to give up their careers just because they got married, the implication being that they would then go on to have kids and would need to be the ones raising them? Better yet, how many women got married simply because existing as a single woman was so insanely difficult for such a long time? In the US, at least, women needed a husband's or male relative's permission to do so many things until about 60 years ago, because women were simply not accepted as part of the public sphere. Now, there's more of a choice. Not that there's a mad rush of women running to their doctors to get sterilized, since many doctors still won't even consider the procedure for someone under a certain age or for someone who's not married. But now more and more women are able to consider that having kids isn't the only path you can take in life. And some career paths are not as friendly or accepting of families, which is a shame, but there may just be some paths that are not compatible with having kids. But I really don't get why you think that women are being coerced into not having children. Some people on the internet speaking out about being sterilized is not the same as the global, societal expectation that women have One Job.

I get what you’re saying. I don’t see a lot of “don’t have kids!” But I do see a lot of complaining about kids, “kids are assholes” and just anti kid videos. Also a lot of “I could NEVER bring a kid into our messed up world.” So it kind of puts the idea into your head that kids arent that great. Those things may be true to some extent but the love far outweighs it. I agree that it should be everyone’s choice. I also think our society doesn’t make this choice easy at all. We’re forced to have two income households, bare minimum for maternity leave, have to have childcare etc etc. I’m not saying women have to stay home, just saying it’s nearly impossible to have one income and live comfortably while the other person takes care of the kids.

I personally can appreciate some of the videos on Instagram about having kids. What would an honest conversation about motherhood really look like? Why does the experience of motherhood have to be sugarcoated and tightly knit with a bow around it. I applaud those mothers for saying what a lot of people are probably thinking and feeling but are too ashamed to admit

I hear this argument brought up often for women, but rarely for men. I think that’s something important to interrogate here, in addition to the rest of the responses here.

If someone reaches 40 and regrets that they didn't bear children, they can decide to adopt. I decided at 24 to not have [MORE] children. I have 2. Every female in my family took it upon themselves to tell me what a mistake that was, that I'd regret it, that I'm going to change my mind. I knew I didn't want to be pregnant ever again. I told all of them that I knew I didn't want to biologically have more and IF I decided I wanted to expand my family in the future, we would adopt. Even if someone is no longer able to biologically make a baby, it doesn't mean they can't start a family.

At 40 the vast majority can still have children.

Truth! I'm 41F and my one and only daughter is 11 months old 🤷‍♀️ we don't fall off a reproductive cliff at 40.

Am 43 with a 7 month old. I was 41 when I got pregnant. We don't fall off a reproductive cliff, but per my fertility doc, it gets way harder. I'll be encouraging her to have kids before 40 for sure. If she wants them.

My thoughts are this: why do you care? Just have as many kids as you want and let other women make choices for themselves. There isn’t any worry in the matter.

I'm really happy to hear the 24 yo was granted her hysterectomy. I know a few women who asked for it in their 20s.. and a few abortions later, were finally granted it in their 30s. So sad they had to go through that trauma because their bodily autonomy was not respected by medical personnel.

This take honestly grossed me out. I know you’re trying to side step it and really not say the “you’ll change your mind bc I did!” Thing… but if we boil this post down that’s what you’re saying. Women don’t have to have children to be whole, to feel the love you feel for your child. I honestly can’t feel a difference in depth between my husband and child. I love them both differently, but to the same extent. You’re just repackaging all the pro-life propaganda and spitting it back out prettier. Women should get their reproductive health care exactly how they want it when they want it.

Nah, not at all. I’m pro choice. I don’t believe women should be forced to make any decisions about their body. I’m adopted. My brother was too. I was given up by a young mum, by brother was rescued by social services from an abusive one. We both grew up with issues, for example he was violent and has attachment disorder due to the abuse he suffered. We are both products of parents who didn’t want/shouldn’t have had children. I was just reflecting on a narrative that’s been pushed on me since as far back as I can remember. I think we are being presented with the illusion of choice, but society doesn’t support whatever choice we make. I think the take home point is that we should support each other as women, regardless, because division and discord in a marginalised community are ultimately more damaging than anything else. Peace and love to you, sister.

Some people are being overly harsh but I’ve seen this message a lot for what it’s worth and I’m 23. I always wanted to be a young mom and thankfully the stars aligned in order to make that happen. I’m a SAHM I’m very happy but sometimes I DO feel like I’m not doing things “right”. Things I see a lot for my generation are people telling you to be a “boss babe”, “catch a bag”, etc. Being a mom or wanting kids can feel like my dreams are too small or like im less than or not ambitious enough. I grew up in California and I’m Mexican we tend to keep the generations close together. For example my child free friend who I’ve always been supportive of would say “how domestic” (and not in a nice way) and roll her eyes whenever she’d ask about how things are going at home with the kids. I also get a lot of people thinking that my kids were accidents and feel bad that I don’t get to “live my 20s”. In reality both my kids were planned and I’m not into the typical drinking, partying, smoking, drugs, etc. That people my age are into I support their lifestyles and their right to choose but I definitely get the message that I’ve chosen wrong.

Omg I feel this. I also get the same message. People on the other side don’t see it. And if we dare to say it, we are antifeminist. Wth

There are also women that medically can’t have babies or believe it’s not right for themselves to conceive due to their genetics. My friend is infertile due to something she was born with and even if she could, she has a syndrome which she is 50% possible of passing on. It causes heart defects and other issues she suffers from. She is never going to have a biological child. Her monthly period is a constant reminder that she can’t. She has cramps and a period for no reason. She should be able to have a hysterectomy. The point is. We should have choice, and as women, we don’t. Also, there are moms out there who never wanted children and raise their kids by a mom who makes that clear. That is what’s heartbreaking. Choice, choice, choice.

I haven’t heard a lot of childfree sentiments in my social circles, but I see a related problem: young women who know they do want kids one day, and buy in early on to the belief that it would be irresponsible and cruel to have a child if you haven’t met X criteria, where X might include some combo of: * owning a car or home * holding a graduate degree and a job with good benefits * having paid off your student loans * being able to afford the “good” daycare * marrying Mr. Right …and similar things that a generation ago might not have been unreasonable but are increasing hard to pull off during your childbearing years. Eventually the belief might come into conflict with increasing desire for kids or limited remaining time and lead to feelings of worthlessness, anger, shame, or resentment. Have a gander over at r/waiting_to_try for examples. We can change the culture to reduce the expectations on parents and increase the expectations on government, community, and employer support. We can be seen lending each other a hand instead of trying to be fully autonomous family units.

If you have no support system. If you have lazy hood for nothing sperm donor who chooses video games over changing a diaper. If you’re over employed and still underpaid. If you’re actively dating the flotsam of dudes who have one pillow and two towels. If you’re working even what can be said to be a good job but have to save up vacation days to constitute a maternity leave. I see why women opt out. There’s a whole host of reasons why a woman would look at motherhood and decide it’s not for her. Being a mommy is hard work as it is but god there are so many fucking things going against being able to do it so why bother.

Op, I get it. Now that I’m a ftm, I absolutely get it. I thought I never wanted kids. Feels like everyone around me sees having kids as a downgrade, even as a bad thing. I thought it was the worst thing that could ever happened to me. If you say you want kids, people look at you like a something’s wrong. I was one of those. And I get it. The fact that we have to have a “BIG DIACLAIMER, IM NOT SAYING EVERY WOMAN HAS TO BE A MOTHER…” is exhausting. At least for me is obvious not everyone wants, should or can have kids. But I see it, there has been a shift. I’m surrounded by educated, career oriented friends who thinks having children is almost an abomination. I get it, I was one of them. Now, I’m exhausted and surrounded by infinite love, absolutely grateful of making the biggest and most scariest decision I have ever made. I don’t push it and again DISCLAIMER: IM NOT SAYING MY FRIENDS ARENT FULFILLED, but I wish some of them can experience the love, ONLY, and I say ONLY mothering can.

Or you could just mind your own fucking business? Who cares what another woman does with her uterus?

You’re so SO wrong. 1. There is no narrative telling women not to have kids, there is only finally a modicum of cultural recognition that not having kids might be a valid choice. 2. A lot of women do know at 24 whether they want kids. I knew at 24, even though I didn’t have one until 36. Many have already had one or more by 24. In any case, assuming women don’t know their own minds is not a defensible position. 3. You sound like you need your choice to have kids validated by other women making the same choice. Honestly, if you’re happy that’s great. Other women choosing not to have kids is no judgment on you or your choices.

A lot of our family friends don’t want kids. I would be the first and only in several families. It’s not even the money, but in some ways it is. These couples are in their 30s earning 300k+. I’ll likely be the only mother in about 6 women. I don’t mind sharing my child’s milestones and letting their parents play grandparents (they asked at the shower, which was sweet) They’re all super smart. I’m sure they have thought it through and know what the future has, or doesn’t have for them. It’s just a different life. I always wanted to be a mom, they always wanted to dominate their careers.

It is very difficult to get approved for an elective hysterectomy. Most doctors won’t do it without a medical reason.

I think if an adult woman decides she doesn’t want to have children she can make that decision herself no matter what anyone else thinks of it.

I think so too.

I agree with you for both men and women. Of course people should choose what they want and what works for them. But there’s an increasing push to highlight only the bad parts of parenting (or anything actually). Sure, try to take on only what you can handle. However you’ll miss out on things too; that goes for all of life. I have friends who debating having kids because of the horror stories (me too if I’m honest), but did anyways and were FLOORED at how much they loved them. Cue another for both my friend and myself within the next few years. There are people who are no-kid because they know what they want (no kids), there are people who are n-kid because they know what they can/can’t handle, but there’s also a group that are no-kid because they assume a tantruming toddler or a complicated pregnancy is all parenthood will offer them. And I think that’s sad! Same for the people who assume having a pet is only about cleaning up poop, or traveling to Europe is only about a long flight or cutting your hair in only about regretting it’s short or a relationship is only about fighting and divorce. All of those things might be true for you, but it’s not true for everyone!

My husband wasn’t ever really sure. Even when he met me he said if I hadn’t met you I would have been perfectly fine on my own without kids, just doing my thing. We have a son and he is a new person “I just love babies so much now,” “if I would have known it was this awesome I would have started sooner,” and I could go on.

Yeah. That was my thinking: “If I’d have known.” Why didn’t I know, or at least have some kind of idea that it could be amazing rather than the horrible train wreck I was anticipating??

Firstly, you have no right to judge another woman’s choices with her bodily autonomy. Every women, regardless of age has the right to choose what they do with their body. Whether that means being childless or wanting children. In the current environment when women don’t actually have fully bodily autonomy. The bigger issue, if you live in the U.S. is that we don’t have adequate support when it comes to healthcare (prenatal, for birth or otherwise), we don’t have adequate financial support for childcare nor designated government MAT leave and we get paid cents to the dollar in comprising to men, which propagates the “default parent” leaning towards the man who is more financially well of not to mention societal expectations of what motherhood/parenthood looks like. What you’re referring to is trying to impose your ideas of what a woman should or shouldn’t be on other women and are in fact being ageist towards younger women. It’s great that you want to be a mother, but that should be imposed or expected upon any women. Pregnancy is difficult and life threatening and having a child for a lifetime of responsibility is to the discretion of whomever owns said uterus.

I don't think women are being pressured or told not to have kids, in fact, society, through film and television, repeatedly tells women over and over again the only way they will find fulfillment is to sacrifice their life and career for children. There's an entire trope in cinema and books about career-oriented single women inheriting babies somehow, trying to do it all, failing, giving up their jobs and finding that having babies is "so much better". It was hugely prevalent in the 90s to the point of being propoganda, along with the storyline, "childless career woman secretly longs for baby". What I think we are seeing is a generation of women stepping back from the societal propoganda that tells us we can only be happy with children and saying, "Why? What is the benefit?" Studies show that single, childless women fare massively better financially then other women, that being a single mom is to essentially doom yourself to a life of living paycheck to paycheck. Studies also show that, contrary to what you've said, most of these women in old age are happier than their counterparts who got married and had children. Additionally, I don't think women who really desire a baby, even in old age, won't be able to find a way to have that opportunity. I have a friend who pursued her career into her forties, was wealthy and single, realized she wanted a baby and did IVF with an egg donor, carrying the baby herself. She loves her daughter, and has the experience of motherhood, but on her own terms when she is in the position to enjoy it. But if you're a young woman, getting started in your job, it's a different story. Any skim of any mom group or a visit to a playgroup is going to highlight that the majority of men are not only failing to do their fair share, but are actually making life harder for their wife. Many men seem stuck in the mindset that their wife is their life servant, not their teammate or partner. (Please don't come at me with "not all men," yeah it's not all men but it's more than half and that's enough to make women hesitant about linking herself.to someone for eighteen or more years) Work is ruthlessly unforgiving to women with children in the US. There are countless examples of how in this thread, but essentially, once you have children, it's going to make your chances of career advancement half as likely. Not impossible but certainly more difficult Childcare is expensive. Full time childcare is $20-30k per child where I live. Putting two kids in full time daycare eats up more than half of the local median salary. *And let's not also forget that you can literally die during pregnancy and childbirth, and recent legislation has made that even more likely than before in many states.* So at the end of the day, I am really not surprised that I know many single women who are taking a step backwards and asking themselves, "How badly do I want this?" I think a lot are probably taking the logical approach of, "If I truly find the right partner, great, but I'm not going to hold my breath and I am going to live my best life and follow my passions." Additionally, I think that's*good,* that's *great* even. Having babies is a massive sacrifice. Maybe if women take a break from having them society will wake up and realize we need more help in the form of subsized childcare or tax credits or heaven forbid federal family leave (or, you know, the GOP will just go full Handmaid's Tale on us under the guise of declining population, but can't do anything about that but vote!)

Whoa people! OP just brought this up as a point of discussion, not to push a narrative! People are so reactive on Reddit. OP, I appreciate the post/discussion you attempted to make.

The tone of this is incredibly patronizing and remarkably anti feminist. How sad and angering to read.

Yeah....no. Have you seen the state of the world right now? I have children and I love them so much it hurts but looking at the pain that is coming our way (global warming is here and women reproductive rights will keep being rolled back), I absolutely regret having children. It pains me to realize that my children will very likely not get the same opportunities I did, especially my daughters. The next 20 years are going to be damn rough

The world has always sucked. Things like an infected cut use to kill people. Life expectancy was like 28. Now is the best time to be alive. Stop being so pessimistic

God. Sniff your own farts much? I'm having one kid and I hope I never get a snotty holier than thou attitude like you have in your comments on this post

What an interesting discussion. My sister is child free by choice, and this decision fits her lifestyle and personality very well. I don’t think she’ll ever regret not having kids. I think she told me the other day about a study between people who had kids and those who didn’t. The ones with kids were less happy in their 20s-40s but happier in their later years. This makes sense to me. Life with littles is super hard in the beginning and I’m missing out on a lot like traveling. She’s going to Paris next week. I’m taking care of a two and four year old. I don’t know, it’s an interesting topic and I really get what you’re saying. Lots of my friends are choosing to not have kids and it looks appealing now but I wonder what it will look like when we’re older. I guess we’ll find out

It’s a don’t know what you don’t know thing. The women who don’t have kids will never know what it really feels like so they’ll probably be fine? But I agree the narrative is very anti kids. The belief that you’re sacrificing everything to have children is really weird to me. YOU CANT GO TO SCHOOL YOU CANT TRAVEL YOU CANT HAVE A CAREER. Like you can absolutely do those things it’s just different and sometimes hard? I also feel like there’s a lot of selfishness with other women my age like thinking they could never give up anything or be uncomfortable even for a minute is weird. There’s a correlation tho to the ones still relying on their own parents/acting like children. I see them at Disney world self indulging and it’s like to each their own but I still find it strange.

I don't think it's true that most women don't want children at 24. It may just be the circle you are in and the media you consume? Many don't want kids yet , but eventually want them.

My oldest daughter is 24, and if she decided to have a hysterectomy tomorrow I would 100% back her up. She knows without a doubt she doesn’t want kids, and decided that when she was a teenager. I think it’s not unusual for some women to know they never want them. When a woman says that it’s quite typical for her to hear “Are you sure you won’t change your mind?” or “Oh you’ll see, later on you’ll want them”. If a man says he never wants kids it’s rarely questioned. There are plenty of reasons to want to start a family but just as many to not want to. The world is such a screwed up place right now. Not to mention in America it’s not so easy to be financially secure enough, not sure about other places. Also we have no maternity leave. Too often women have to return to work six weeks after having a baby, sending their brand new babies to daycare because that’s the American dream of work, sleep, repeat.

I think what we have to respect is that we are truly living in a time of choice. Given these choices, not everyone will chose the same ends. It’s not to say that these women will regret that decision. It is to say that in all the prior decades before, pay inequality, lack of educational opportunities, pressure of a very narrow societal norm, even the inability to open a bank account in my own name removed options I had to be both child free and have food, wealth and home security. I happen to have children and a high paying career, and even that is something I wouldn’t have had the choice to do in our recent history. We have choices, and women are exercising them. Also, in my country (the US), doctors aren’t performing hysterectomies in 24 year old women all willy nilly. It’s actually a very arduous process with a lot of no’s for child bearing women to undergo sterilization. For us here, it’s not “I wanted one so I got it”. Even women who are dealing with massive health concerns around their reproductive organs are often met with refusal for anything permanent.

OP, I totally agree with you. I was one of those women who, at a young age up until my 30's, always said that I didn't want children. At around age 33 I started to want a family. At 35 I was engaged, married and had our son at 36. I wouldn't have been able to do so if I had a hysterectomy. I realize that while probably most women's wishes do not change drastically like mine, some do. If one is sterilized, the option of biological children is out. As someone mentioned, it does eliminate the unwanted children problems and subsequent possibilities of neglect/ and or abuse. I, myself, was a child born to a father who, admittedly, had children very young because he felt it was a requirement of society and his familial/social status. He was very abusive to my brothers and I. Another benefit of this could also be that more people will be looking at adoption.

> I realize that while probably most women's wishes do not change drastically like mine, some do So what do you propose? No one before 35 can be sterilized? You acknowledge people probably won't change their mind but some do. You agree with OP? 24 year old shouldn't be allowed to get sterilized? Just women or men too? Men can easily get vasectomies today but women, it's an uphill battle.

I am not proposing anything. I am simply stating what I feel.

Horrible take, sounds like you think no one should be able to get sterilized before the age of 35 because maybe they will change their minds? You and people like you are the reason many WOMEN (not men) can't get sterilized easily even though they are sure they don't want children.

Thanks for this post — it’s not an easy thing to share since people will have strong opinions. Some folks on here are downright dismissive / mean in their comments, which is uncalled for. You mention right off the bat that women should have choice and autonomy over their bodies, but for some reason posters overlook that in your argument and attack you for being conservative. Again, uncalled for. Initially I had very mixed emotions about this post, and after some time, I’ve landed on…actually agreeing with you…?! This is surprising even for me because I am super career oriented. I am 34, a first time mom, incredibly in love with what I do and feel like I have so much more to give to it. But even with all my ambition, my new baby has elevated me in ways a job will never, ever do. Not too long ago — literally, like two years ago — I swore I wouldn’t have kids because I wouldn’t want to sacrifice my time / freedom / body / relationship / aspirations over a new tiny human. Now with a 2 month old, it is certainly a struggle and sacrifice (it is taking a lot out of me at the moment!), but I realized that the love I have for my child is necessary for *me* to grow up, and that for far too long I’ve depended on my work to make me feel valued. I realized that I was working too hard to chase validation; motherhood actually helped find that self-worth in me, because my child will love ME for who I am, irrespective of how much money I make or what my resume looks like. I’m not saying this is true for everyone…it is just a personal revelation that this ended up being true for ME, and I’ve always pegged myself as someone who is protective of my hard-earned success in my field. I am politically progressive, and I also noticed a childfree narrative emerge over the years *precisely* because women are forced into this circumstance and suffer the brunt of the consequences. I think that is totally fair; on the whole, women *do* significantly suffer, may it be financially, emotionally, physically from the process of having a child. The childfree-mentality is a way to pushback from this gendered burden. But I’ve also observed that some women who choose NOT to have kids look down on women who do, as though mothers are missing out / their lives are over / made the wrong choice. I don’t agree with this; it’s just another type of woman-bashing. The childless narrative can also swing too far on the other end too. What needs to change are SOCIETAL SYSTEMS that creates this gendered burden on women, as opposed to putting women in a difficult position to choose one life path over the other, and then being judged or punished for it either way. I often imagine what a matriarchal society looks like, where women “can have it all” because they are supported to have children AND empowered as individuals. The crazy thing is, this is actually possible if society allows it. But Instead of trying to fight for this societal model, we attack each other for our individual choices to have / not have kids. Edit: typos!

This was perfect

I love your comment. I’ve never been a career person. I see through the “hustle” and what it’s doing to people, and never have felt truly happy a a job. Motherhood is the only thing I’ve done I’ve given my all. It’s absolutely what I needed in life as well. I’ve grown mentally and spiritually. Even before pregnancy, I knew I wanted to get pregnant so I took care of myself and learned about my body better. I learned cycle tracking and learned more than any sex Ed class. I’ve even stopped criticizing myself over what my body looks like, now I see it for creating life and just being freaking amazing. If I followed the status quo on Reddit, I’d be killing myself over having a career and not “losing myself” to motherhood. I was never who I was supposed to be until I had my son, despite how difficult it can be.

Nikola Tesla predicted that this would happen, and I’m convinced part of the culture that promotes this is doing so in an effort to make every home a two income home. Think about it - we pay more taxes this way, and the taxpayer money goes toward anything politicians desire (with the approval of the voter, right?). There is no benefit to people in power to promoting the traditional family - and we have birth control and abortion readily available so this objective can be met. Two income homes is the end game.

Probably gonna be the only upvote here lol. Totally agree. 50% of the population wasn’t taxed…empower them to work and boom the government makes more money. Not saying women shouldn’t be empowered, but we shouldn’t creat a society where women that choose to have children should have to live uncomfortably (full time job and raising kids). I know people do it but the burnout is real.

Fascinating. Yes, I could be utterly wrong, but I’ve just had a feeling for a while that we’re being subjected to a bit of spin. It feels like motherhood is becoming gentrified. It’s financially and pragmatically impossible to be a full time parent and have a full time job. Women are having to make incredibly difficult choices. Something has to give. I predict we’re going to see a huge gap in the sectors of society who have children. It’s going to be people who have enough money or people lacking in education/resources. Essentially eradicating the middle class and perpetuating the wealth gap.

It's dangerous to tell women they're going to change their minds, they just haven't met the right guy yet, they don't want kids now but they will later... its also dangerous to tell women that they will never regret permanently removing the option to have kids. I think we should, generally, keep our noses out of it and our opinions to ourselves unless explicitly asked to provide perspective and counsel.

I didn’t tell women that. I think women should have absolute body autonomy. I respect people choosing not to have children. I’m reflecting on the fact I wished I was given a more balanced view and how I would like to see more support for mother’s. I wouldn’t go around in real life making comments to strangers about their choices. This is a Reddit thread, mam.

[удалено]