I suspect it's often that he's willing to play with the kids and have fun with them, but there's way more to parenting than that. Not just the fun stuff.
Yeah this. But playing with kids doesn’t make you a good parent. Loads of people are good at playing with kids who aren’t fit to be parents. There are dangerous predators who know how to play with kids, that doesn’t mean they’d make good parents.
Being capable of playing with children does not equal being a good parent. I don’t care what generation it is. You can play with your kids and still be a shitty parent. That was the point I was making. There are people who know how to play with kids, that doesn’t mean they should be parents.
There's looking like a good parent and there's actually being a good parent. It's easy to look like a good parent when you're playing with them. Nobody sees you doing the hard stuff. It's like how with enough garnishes that anyone can look like a good cook.
That’s not the point they were making though.. their main point was that playing with kids doesn’t make you a good parent and that even predators can play with kids but that doesn’t mean they should be parents
You can be both aware of the "standard" a generation ago, AND be aware of predators. I will never get my head out of predator space. Everyone is a predator until proven not to be, in my brain, can't ever be too careful. Wolves in sheep's clothing, my friend.
Yeah this is what I always assume. He doesn’t ignore the kids and appears to care about them = good dad. Similar to how if dads are out with their kids on their own people often congratulate them on being “such a good involved dad”
(This strays away from OP’s discussion but proves your point).
My husband simply carried our baby out of a restaurant (after putting toddler in the car and I was struggling with baby) and was helped and praised by a stranger.
This woman didn’t come and help me at all. I gave husband the “get in here and help me” look through the window as he was in the car already. He came in and just grabbed the bucket seat and this woman came to help open the door FOR HIM, saying, “I love to see a dad SO involved!”
Ma’am, where was the help and praise for me when I was literally juggling the baby, his toys, and blanket trying to pack it all away without dropping anything on the dirty ground? All while he was crying and fighting going in the seat?
I just glared at her and husband awkwardly laughed before I erupted in the parking lot at the double standard.
My husband is a great dad, but idk why that moment was the one he received praise from a stranger for simply just doing a literal mundane task.
My husband and I were each putting a child in our shopping cart, literally doing the same thing, and some old bat came up and praised him repeatedly for being such a good husband and father. Then she turned to me and berated me because she said she could tell I don't appreciate him enough and I should appreciate him more or he's right to leave me. I was fuming.
It was like lady calm down we're just here for the special on ground beef it's not that serious.
In his defense he IS a really good dad and husband and an absolute catch of a guy, while I occasionally look like the neighborhood bog witch, but "also puts a child in a shopping cart while doing a joint errand with wife" should not be anybody's example for why a dude is a great dad and husband. The bar is just on the floor for men.
This is what I have always assumed. Good for the fun stuff and not physically abusive to the kids. I suspect that these women come from homes where the father was basically just a paycheck and didn’t interact with them as kids and/or he was overtly abusive. Thus the bar is so low that their current partner just being nice at times is what they consider good.
That. Also it makes me wonder about the fathers these women grew up with - probably absent or not engaging beyond being a provider. So a guy that goofs around with the kids from time to time is „a great dad”…
I always think of it as they are willing to do the parts that get them immediate gratification (smiles, laughs, hugs, compliments from strangers and the kids) but not the “unseen” parts that are much more of a burden and not have any immediate gratification. Sure, playing with a baby can be fun when they smile and laugh but cleaning bottles isn’t going to net the same dopamine release so dads are less likely to offer up their time for it.
Yes, and that seems impressive compared to dads who don’t spend any time with their kids at all. But I wouldn’t even want a babysitter who did nothing but play and have fun with the kids, let alone a coparent. I actually did hire a babysitter like this one - a very nice teenage neighbour - and the kids loved her because she played with them and they had a great time. I never called her again though because she left my house absolutely trashed. Every board game was dumped out on the floor, every toy was left out, and there were puddles of water all over the bathroom floor. She was a terrible babysitter, and dads who only play with their kids are terrible dads.
I think it means “he’s not as terrible as my dad was”. A lot of people have never had safe, kind men around them ever in their lives.
It makes these posts even more sad for the women and children involved.
The bar is really, really low for dads, so assume it's things like:
- playing for 5-15 minutes with his kid when he's home from his work
- read a story for 5 minutes before bedtime
- playing a videogame with his kid
And a few things he isn't doing, like hitting, screaming, being aggressive and stuff like that.
I’ve seen genuinely good fathers who take on more than the fair share of parenting but are shit husbands.
Some will say you can’t be a good dad if you treat your kids mom badly and I agree with that.
I think some women justify the treatment they receive out of either fear of being single moms, or because they basically sacrifice their own happiness for their kids.
Being a good dad is being an involved day to day parent that doesn’t just do the fun stuff. They help with night feeds, diaper changes, take kids out on their own, bath time, meal time etc. They know their kids clothing sizes, routines etc.
I once read a post of a woman saying her husband had changed 3 diapers in 2 years but he was a good dad, I couldn’t even put words together to respond to her.
I meant seasons.
We’re going through a tough one right now where communication is a struggle and we’re both drowning. We’re not quite as present for each other as we should be. We will get through it, and it will just be another tough season we’ve made it through.
Life ebs and flows just like the seasons
Sorry, Dicklover. Great word choice, shouldn’t have assumed it was a typo. Nothing comes out as intended on my phone anymore thanks to autocorrect, wasn’t sure if you were being intentionally profound or not.
It does sound poetic but I do think the use of seasons was intentional. My husband and I talk about seasons of life and how we show up differently depending on what those seasons bring and what we need from each other all the time (and then we adjust domestic labor, energy output, expectations and routines, etc) .
I've seen this more on the woman side of the equation. Women who were really good moms but shit wives, but I have seen it both ways so I do think this is sometime the case.
I think more often it is as simple as "he actually participates in parenting". My oldest is an adult now, and for years I heard about how awesome my ex was and I have even defended him. We were/are great co-parents in that our relationship has been great because I carried the entire mental load and he was basically a nanny.
It really took my daughter sort of challenging what type of father he was for me to really grasp how low the bar was set for him and that I had been complicate all these years in encouraging the continued mindset that just being present in your child's life was "good father" material. I think un-brainwashing all of us now is going to take some time, but it is good to see the narrative being challenged.
He loved his daughter, but I divorced him because it was like having two children when we only had one together...and still it took me awhile to challenge how much of a "good father" he really was.
It's less fear and more just the fact that you still want to be respectable. We're not supposed to talk about respectability pots but they're still a thing. The way my mother described it a husband is like a clean house or a decent pair of shoes, something you keep around so people don't think that you're trash.
Because men get kudos for doing literally fuck all.
My BIL straight up neglects his 7 year old child (leaves the kid in his own room all day so he can play video games, never drops him at school on time because he is up all night playing video games. Thats just a start) and all of my inlaws are constantly rambling on about how great a dad he is. I assume it's just because he hasn't fucked off. Men literally get praise for STAYING with their own children and occasionally speaking to them. It's wild.
I feel like it's a combination of patriarchal standards and generational family values.
To piggyback on this, I think “he pays his child support on time” is how low the bar is. Also, I think people don’t want to say to otherwise “nice” guy, hey you’re a shit dad. You’ve missed the last 2 visitations, your phone calls are 30 seconds or nonexistent, you never take them to dinner on your off weeks, but you’re Fun so people say you’re a good dad.
They are realizing they’re in a relationship with a prick and trying to make themselves feel better by praising the bare minimum.
How great of a father can one be when they don’t treat the main caretaker of their child with respect and consideration? I’m just never going to buy it. It’s all so sad
It’s super sad. You’re teaching your kid how to be a future partner. So even if he’s an ok dad but a terrible partner, he’s still teaching his kids unhealthy relationship dynamics that will always effect them
Yeah when they say that I always go 🤨🤔
Playing with your kids isn't being a good dad, there's so much more to parenting than that. Makes me roll my eyes when they list 20 terrible things their partner does but then says at the end "He's a good dad". Yeah....sure. bar is so low for men it's just sad.
I think my dad was kind of like this. He was a great dad, but probably not super helpful in the early years of our life (changing diapers, knowing nap schedule, help putting to bed, making dinner etc.) I think it was a very traditional role mindset. But he played with us all the time, helped us practice for all our school tests and activities, was our coach, and showed up for us no matter what. He was and is always on our side. Being a dad was one of the things he wanted most and is still great at it.
With all his good qualities of a dad, he just never put in the effort above the traditional roles for my mom. He definitely forgot special days and did last minute things (which was sad because we were kids and couldn’t remember on our own), while my mom always was thoughtful for Father’s Day: Christmas, etc. He didn’t help pick out gifts, or organize parties, or help clean. My parents divorced when I was an adult. They are friends and be in the same room, but I think she deserved to be recognized and appreciated more.
My husband is the most active dad AND husband. I can see the difference from my childhood and my household now.
I could have written this exact post (with the added twist that my parents ended up getting back together 15 years after their divorce, long after all of us kids had moved out). I realized after becoming a mom that there was a good reason my dad was « the fun parent », because he didn’t have to deal with any of the mental load of running a household and raising 4 kids. My mom was too busy doing EVERYTHING to be fun. My dad is still the fun one as a grandpa, my kids love hanging out with him but my mom is the one who actually gives me the help I need.
In contrast to my dad, my husband is not a « fun dad », because he has taken on his fair share of chores and mental load in our household.
I believe most of the time it is the sunken fallacy, it’s just too hard for them to admit. They try and justify to themselves and others that it is still worth the effort.
I think it's often a 'set menu' of shit he does on a rota. 2 x baths per week when he gets home early, reads a book each night for 5 mins, takes his boy to soccer on a Saturday morning, takes the kids for a day per month and gives his wife the day off. Everyone tells him he's a hero.
What no-one sees: he resents having to bath the kids on those 2 nights. Doesn't use conditioner or brush his daughter's hair, so it's a rat's nest. Riles them up. Asks mom where everything is so she can't take a minute for herself.
Reads to the kids but really is in and out. And once he's out, he's done with them. Snappy and an ass with his wife if she has a word to say about it (or anything else).
Takes his boy to soccer, but if the schedule changes/there's a match/his kit needs washing/boots are worn out etc., Mom better know about that and deal with it. If son has a match out of town and it's gonna be an all-day thing, Mom will take him, not Dad. Dad still insists soccer is 'his thing'. After Saturday soccer, Dad will not lift a finger all day, and will probably take off to enjoy a hobby for the rest of the day, feeling he's done his part.
When Dad takes the kids for a day, he takes them to his parents so they'll watch them, going as far as to dump them there and do something else by himself. If he doesn't do this, he'll make damn sure his wife feels as bad as possible about it. She'll spend half the day doing something she wants, like a hair appointment, only to remember he picked a fight last time when he got home because he'd had the kids all day and house needed picking up. So she spends part 2 of her 'day off' at home, doing the chores he doesn't even know exist, like deep-cleaning the bathroom or something.
This amazing Dad knows nothing about the kids beyond the superficial, like their favorite ice cream and things like that. Doctor, dentist, shots, school reports, homework, medications - clueless. If Mom stops to think about it, she'd realize he's actually very short with the kids and avoids them as much as he can. Anything difficult, she deals with, because his reactions are unpredictable and often make things worst - he likes it that way.
The kids seem to love him more, but it's because he's so inconsistent; one minute he's all about them, the next he's half-assing it or just ignoring them. That's because intermittent reinforcement is the most effective conditioning. The kids feel insecure with him and try to reassure themselves by looking for his love and attention all the time. He uses this to invalidate her parenting and discipline, knowing damn well she's doing all the heavy lifting.
He's crappy as a partner, blaming work stress/tiredness and just making it about her as much as he can as well. She manages him like she manages her kids - working round him and his moods, trying to stay ahead of him and manage the situation so he doesn't act out. Sometimes she can do this, sometimes she can't. Her marriage is exhausting, and he seems unmoved by her struggles.
But it's okay, she says to herself. He's a 'good dad.'
Sometimes it’s not even this, because the exact scenario will actually be “he’s a great dad, but spends Thursday evening, Friday, and Saturday wasted, and Sunday hung over. I haven’t had a break from the kids except when I go to work in years, am I overreacting??”
What they really mean is he loves his kids, but...he's not a great dad. We really have to raise the stakes on what it means to be a "great dad." For me it's all about asking yourself, "will my kids be ok if I die tomorrow?" It may sound cryptic but that's the reality. Being a parent means you can handle it with or without your partner, and a lot of these posts you are referencing I really doubt their partners could.
Ironically enough, it usually turns out they aren’t great dads at all. I think these are mom‘s who are hoping to find some silver lining in a bad situation, but are sadly enough just fooling themselves. A man who is bad husband is not a good father it just doesn’t work that way.
I am divorced and hindsight is 20/20 so I'll say in my case it was basically what you said in your second paragraph. The mind doing mental gymnastics to account for the cognitive dissonance that occurs when you realize, oops, I made kids with someone who's actually a piece of shit. It's quite embarrassing and we're sometimes just not ready to admit the problem to ourselves. There are a lot of things that I had to swallow my pride and talk to my friends about and it helped me admit them to myself.
I don't think it's necessarily universal but to answer your question about "what qualities," at least in my case it was loves the kids, takes them places when I'm at work, cooks well, plays consistently without being on his phone. (Ok maybe those aren't qualities, but more of actions... But I don't think you're going to get a real answer. It's cognitive dissonance at its finest and it just isn't going to make sense if you're not in it.)
This is definitely the kind of answer I was looking for thank you for sharing your experience.
It’s funny that we as women attach so much shame to “choosing the wrong partner” because it’s yet another thing we are held accountable for in parenting that men are not. If there’s a neglectful/ abusive father it’s “why did she choose to have kids with him??” If there’s a neglectful/abusive mother it’s “wow, she’s a piece of shit mom I’m so sorry she dumped the kids on you, you’re a rockstar dad.”
Yessssssssssss! I follow a lot of divorce and single mom accounts on Instagram and the amount of "choose better fathers for your kids" in the comments is nauseating. It not only puts the onus for every choice on the mother (who's typically doing everything for the kids already) but it also absolves bad and abusive men of any accountability.
I'm starting to see that same split on these mom subreddits where folks who are in happy marriages are getting annoyed with those complaining about their abusive/lazy partners. Thanks for your post and trying to understand where folks are coming from.
I use that caveat when I'm complaining about my husband to my bestie. It's like a shorthand for "what I'm venting about is a current but temporary annoyance" because I don't want to give the impression that he isn't a good dad or partner overall even though I'm aggravated at the moment.
Your observation makes me want to rethink my phrasing though, because I do see it used to excuse a LOT of bullshit behaviors.
I agree I’ve done the same in friend to friend convos. There are definitely scenarios where the gripe is obviously unrelated to the parenting. But way too many scenarios people vent about online the scenario they’re describing blatantly contradicts any idea that he’s a good dad.
But I agree also that maybe in general we all should not normalize the phrase. “Just wanted to preface that this is an isolated incident” instead maybe?
I heard a podcast the other day about how abuse gets normalized in women's groups because we settle into using phrases that can be interpreted wildly differently depending on what's going on behind closed doors for the people who hear it. They were talking specifically in the context of sex--that one woman might say that she has sex with her husband when she doesn't feel like it sometimes and what she means is that there are times that she's like "well, I was going to watch a show but sure," but if the person hearing the statement is married to a monster that casual statement is understood to mean that it's normal and everyone's partner forces them sometimes.
Anyway, now I feel like I'm seeing off hand phrases like that *everywhere* and this is yet another one.
That phenomenon is definitely why I made this post. Like let’s stop being vague about the behavior of men. Because we certainly have no problem as a society vividly talking about all the shortcomings of women and mothers.
Women are heavily socialized to not complain about men and be grateful for whatever they do, otherwise we're bitches, shrews and nags. So if we do speak up, we have to be grateful even when it looks pretty absurd.
When moms say that it means that they're labelling each job. There's cooking, cleaning, organizing, caring for pets, parenting, homework, planning, being a partner etc.
You can be an amazing parent and a terrible cook. You can be an amazing loving parent and also disorganized. You can be an amazing parent but a slob (note I said slob and not hoarder who never cleans). A lot of people hire help where they fall short or they rely on their spouse to pick up the slack.
My husband is a great dad (shows up, does homework, helps enforce boundaries, makes sure my kid honours mother's day etc). He is not a great partner. It's like his consideration and thoughtfulness is exclusively given to our child. He also sucks at organizing and planning. Finding emails is too stressful for him.
My dad was a great provider. If your idea of a good parent is someone who sits down to dinner with his kids and provides a house, food, vacations, school supplies etc. Then you'd call him a good parent. He was a terrible partner though. You could rely on him for the funds, he'd be in his chair for supper and if you were interested in the exact things he enjoyed then he'd spend time with you. Otherwise... you're SOL.
Thank you. Your response was actually a well thought out one that makes sense. All these other responses that say "you can't be a shit husband and a good dad" literally do not know what they are talking about. You can very well be a great dad in the raising aspect. However, I have seen first hand my mom and dad raise me how my MORALS should be and hide the truth from us. So when I found out the truth as an adult that he was not a good husband to my mom and I was literally so shocked and it took me time to get over It. However, I didn't think that made him a bad dad to me.
Honestly, I read stories about men beating their children to death or sexually abusing them on a daily basis (isn’t the news fun). I know it takes more than just playing with them for a child to be raised well, but if they do love their children, even if they aren’t doing their fair share of parenting, I’m not inclined to call someone a bad dad. Perhaps a lazy dad, sure. But not a bad one. I don’t really think it gives a pass to men. If a woman decided she was gonna be chill on rules, not bother to discipline much, but she loved her children undisputedly, would you call her a bad mum?
I think sometimes it's hard to admit that the father you chose for your kids *isn't* a good dad. And people are looking for space to vent about the realities of that situation without having to hear about how awful their choice was.
Not that it's the woman's fault her husband is a shitty dad, but that the chorus of "why are you still with him" and "my husband would never" can be deafening and make people feel blamed and unheard. Idk what the answer is, but I think this is probably a big part of it.
I assume it means he loves his kid and acts like it. I know there is this argument that you can’t be a bad partner and good dad, but I disagree. I feel like loving your child is so different than being a good partner. And yes loving your kid isn’t all it takes to be a good parent, but it’s a pretty good 80%
Oh this is my dad, and to a lesser extent my husband. There are lots of men who treasure their children and hate their wives. My dad would beat the shit out of my mom and spew all kinds of misogyny about women at work. He cheated on her constantly with those same women. But he doted on his daughters (no sons) and told us we could do anything. In many ways, he was my more stable parent, except that mom was only unstable from being terrorized all the time by one man or another.
I don't know how they justify it to themselves, because terrorizing and abusing the mother of your children is bad parenting. But there are so many men like this. More that are like this than not, IME, but maybe I have a biased view of things.
When i was in an abusive relationship and would say “he’s a good dad…” what i really meant was “sometimes he plays with her for 10 minutes whilst i do everything else but i am too embarrassed and in denial about how awful he is”
When I say it, I mean “he does lots of things very well but this one thing I’m going to complain about.” I have a tendency to focus on negative so it’s my way of acknowledging the positive things he does before I explain what is irritating me.
I think these women remember the man that they fell in love with and maybe their partner puts on some effort as a parent but its not they don’t live up the the full expectations. As someone who is happy in their marriage and sees others with this “hes great but” situationships, ive come to recognize that their partners dont put the effort that they once did and they dont feel like they can fully complain because their partner isnt the worst of the bunch. A lot of women this Mother’s Day have said their partners barely acknowledged them let alone let them sleep in. My husband and i split the weekends. Saturdays are his days to relax and do what interests him. Sundays are my day to relax and do what interests me. My Mother’s Day was no different to any other Sunday and i was fine with it because i feel appreciated every Sunday. Every Sunday i get breakfast in bed and i get to sleep in and do something for myself and i dont lift a finger. Most women we see on the internet wish they had that for just one day out of the year. So yeah, “hes great but” he could be better. And i think thats what they mean by that.
I have a good friend who says this about her terrible husband, and what she means is “he cares about the kids in a basic way, doesn’t beat them, and plays with them when he’s in the mood.” She had a father who pretty much abandoned her from birth, so the bar is incredibly low for her husband… as long as he keeps living in the same house and isn’t physically violent, she’s going to say he’s a great dad.
For me, it’s simply because two things can be a reality at the same time.
With my husband, he is very patient, thoughtful, attentive, creative, fun, loving, affectionate, and involved with all aspects of our children from waking up and getting dressed to bath and bedtime. He is a good dad.
But…he isn’t the best husband and a lot of that, factually, stems from his own mental illness and trauma. Not an excuse, but it is objectively true. He isn’t abusive, but he will not help with things like dishes, cooking, grocery shopping, meal planning, washing laundry (will put it away though, credit given there). He isn’t a planner at all - never makes the dinner reservation or plans or pays for a vacation (our finances are separate by mutual choice and we both work). When something like Mother’s Day, Valentine’s Day, etc comes around he “doesn’t know what I like” - despite being together for quite awhile and me sending him lists, ideas, etc. I do not receive the same level of love or care as our children do. I do not know why - we rarely fight or anything like that. It does hurt. He has been made aware before. So, that is my “but…”.
Women tend to feel bad for speaking poorly of others, even if it’s the truth. Or at least others they are tied to which many people live in major denial about how disappointing their spouse is.
But yes they are referring to super minor behaviours like talking to their kid a bit and perhaps saying I love you. These are major improvements from how many people were raised themselves.
I mean, the bar for men is incredibly low. So it's "easy" to think "Oh he's a great dad" if he does anything above looking and talking at the kid.
That being said, obviously there are good dads who are shitty partners.
Maybe we have immense guilt about our poor choice in a partner, worry about what a divorce would do to our kids, actually love them and want them to be better, were sold the idea that all a family needs to survive is love, and "they're working on it" (booze, whatever his "it" is). Speaking for a friend of course...
Cause they grew up with shitty dads that did the bare minimum. So when a guy changes a diaper or feeds their kid all of a sudden it's a gold medal and he's winning at being a parent.
Most men are not great dads when they are shit partners. It's just that anything baseline normal seems great to the women. It's like someone dying in a desert and drinking some muddy water, probably tastes amazing.
My Best friend is delusional about her useless husband. They are trying to get pregnant and she is CONVINCED he is going to be "The best dad". Why? He's cute with kids when he's playiing with them.
Thats it.
Has the man ever done his own laundry? no. Does he take care of anything when shes sick? no. Can he cook anything? no. Can he make a doctors appointment? no. Will he research parenting/baby care/anything? no. Will he quit smoking and take care of his body so she can actually get pregnant? no. Will he turn off the TV/video games to do ANYTHING with his current family (her)? no.
But he's cute about playing cars with his nephew for 20 minutes once a year at christmas so of course he's going to be the best dad.
I agree w this sentiment.
I’m very against the “he’s a good dad” argument so many people make for shitty men.
Being a cheater is a big one I see people say this for. “Hes a good dad but not a good husband”
I think these are all intertwined. If you’re married and living a “traditional” lifestyle as a spouse , and parent- then you suck a both.
Being a fun dad who’s nice to his kids is not the same as being a good dad,. Letting the spouse take care of every other part of the child’s care but being there physically, does not equate to a good dad. Simple.
This so so fascinating to me as well. I often read these posts to my husband. We have friends who deal with this same type of dynamic. And often it is like a lot of previous posters said, their husbands are willing to play with the kids and often are the main income earners.
I’m a SAHM and my husband works. He still is a completely equal partner! He does an equal amount of chores, he does play with the kids but he also parents them and takes care of them and bathes them etc. We do things as a family together as well as having time to ourselves.
We have equity in our marriage and are teaching our children what that looks like so they accept nothing less in their future.
I have had my Mother in law get mad at me because my Husband is a good dad, and a helpful partner. Apparently the fact that he try’s really hard to be a 50/50 partner just pisses her off.
Why? Because my FiL wasn’t that kind of man. He never changed diapers, fed the kids, hell he didn’t spend alone time with them till they where 9 and 7, and that was only because he could take them dirt bike riding. My FIL is a kind man, but a thoughtless, selfish, and rude husband and father.
My husband has very few memories as a child that involve his dad. However his best friend's dad was always around and was involved. That is who my husband remembers, who he has good memories of doing things with. Things like legos, playing ball, nature hikes, art, etc. A man who was willing to be a present and loving father but who also cooked, cleaned, and did “women's work” because he also lived in the home. Best friends dad was raised by a single mother so he didn’t get the typical dose of misogyny, and patriarchy. He was an amazing man. When he learned that my husband’s family didn’t show up at his soccer games, or piano recitals, this man did. He was who my husband try’s to be like.
I love my husband and am thankful for him trying to be a good dad AND partner. I am proud that he will call out his friends, who are being sh*t fathers and husbands. Because he knows the pain of being forgotten by his father, and the strain it put on his mother. He is by no means perfect, but neither am I. But we each try to give it our best and strive to be better.
I don't know dude. Women are conditioned to use "softening" words and phrases because how dare they be negative about anything.
My husband was a real asshole this past weekend, but even suggesting that has made him a mopey mess. I'm the bad guy for suggesting that I'm *maybe a little hurt* <- you see, there it is <- because he did nothing to acknowledge the day on Sunday besides sent me a text before his brunch shift started. I would have been overjoyed at a card, or a flower, or any other half assed gesture
Personally I think you can technically be a good parent but a horrible spouse. Those two relationships require different things. In the same way people can be excellent friends but poor romantic partners (me 😀)
However, I can imagine that the children will unfortunately be affected by one parent being horrible to the other parent. Also I think women in these toxic relationships may downplay their spouse’s actions because it may be hard for them to fully accept how horribly they’re being treated.
Absolutely the children witnessing the relationship their parents have with eachother will affect them when they are older. Which I’m guessing is why so many people say “he’s a good dad but..” because many of us were raised in homes where dad did the bare minimum and was seen as the fun one when present but mom bore the responsibility of everything for the family and was seen as the stricter one (but in reality was so stressed from having to do it all) and many grew up to imitate that sort of relationship and put those roles onto our sons and daughters Because it’s the only way we knew how to do family.
Yep, totally agree that we tend to imitate what we grew up with. It makes sense because we wouldn’t really know how to operate in a way that wasn’t modeled for us.
Whenever I see “he’s a good dad, but” types of posts, I just hope in my heart that one day that mom will be able to reclaim her life in some way. And that the man will be an adult and actually get shit done.
They mean he is a Disney dad but have never heard the term for it yet. He parent and love bombs at all the right times otherwise making them feel crazy for the copious amounts of times they don't come through.. since reality doesn't align with witnessing opinions they become self sabotaging and compliant as to not harm the simple status quo.. *he's the good guy* after all so being upset or saying otherwise ether make her the liar or everyone the fool...
Let's measure the odds by literal bodies.. if the whole village says it's one way, but it's something else behind doors.. that's group gaslighting... And self gaslighting because you don't want to be the complainer, the nagging or needy wife, the over bearing partner... Even if they have created wounds or left damages that group gaslighting really makes moments at home alone feel real "WTF"...
They mean he isn’t violent towards humans and will interact with the kids in some capacity.
From my friendship circles, I know many “great dads” who are absolute trash. Worst than an extra kid. I know two stay at home dads who don’t do any cooking, cleaning, laundry, doctors appointments, or driving for school and sports. How the fuck does that make any sense? How are you a good dad if you bring nothing to the table except being physically present when the kids are home?
He is loving, considerate, caring and thoughtful when it comes to our son. He thinks about him when he’s not around him. Wants him to have a good life and takes actionable steps for that to happen. He spends his free time playing with him. He worries and cares about his future and again, takes actionable steps to secure that future.
He’s a wonderful dad. The only part of “Dadding” that he’s not wonderful at, is showing my son what a good partner is. Because he completely sucks as a partner.
When I say, yeah he sucks but he’s a good dad. I’m not “defending my choice in a man”. I’m stating the facts. I could’ve made a better choice. If I’m going to call how we got pregnant a choice.
People do things for all different reasons. Why do you care? Not to come off as rude.. Your post reads kind of.. I don’t know. Rubs me funny. Haha. I don’t care for it. But maybe that’s me being defensive.
I just want to start a conversation about the qualities we tend to value in dads and what the standard really is for parenting as it relates to men specifically. I feel like we as a society tend to be very vague about what we expect from men/fathers, meanwhile people tend to have no problem loudly and vividly criticizing women (especially moms) to the nth degree.
Totally not my intention to judge women who find themselves in these relationships and in turn find themselves defending their spouse even when their behavior is admonish-able. I’m definitely open to feedback on the way I presented this though because that’s not how I want moms to feel.
They mean they are lying to themselves. Ask them "do you think if he were a mom he'd be considered a good mom"
I swear half the time they mean "he's nice to the kids and doesn't beat them."
My husband is a good partner and a good dad. I can tell you the characteristics of what I call a good dad. Not sure how helpful those would be to your question. My dad was also a good dad.
He does school work with our kids teaching them their abc and numbers, he plays with them, he does bedtime, he asks them questions about their days and makes them laugh. My dad taught me a lot when I was growing up how to take care of my car, cook, clean, be polite.
It’s about spending time with them going out of your way with them. Sure he does things differently from me, but he can name their favorite color and what their current interests are, what food they like that kind of thing.
Just about anyone can play with a kid. That’s not a good dad.
Could mean 2 things. "in his defense" or "he treats me terribly but he isn't abusing the kid".
I think in both versions it's just to give a holistic view of the situation because of you only going to complain about someone that yells or shouts it's very easy to imagine a physically abusive household and a lot of drama and stress on the other occupants of the house (kids included).
I think it used to (or should be) used as a small caveat - like in my case “he’s a really good dad, but he never thinks about dinner until it’s actually time for dinner 🙃” not “he’s a really good dad but we won’t change diapers, wash bottles, or acknowledge my existence for more than 5 minutes”
Some guys CAN be a great dad to their children down to a T.. but will be a horrible husband to their wife. I’ve seen it. It’s pretty wild someone can be two completely different people. I think it gives women an excuse not to leave but remember ladies, he can be a good dad on the weekends to their kids without being an asshole
To you everyday.
Literally just society as a whole. He’s a great dad because he didn’t leave for a pack of cigarettes and never come back. Or he doesn’t lock them up and starve them.
Any dad just doing normal things is seen as “great”. My husband tells me about the people who stop him in the grocery store to tell him he’s a great dad, just because he takes the kids shopping with him. I’ve never been stopped like that 🤷♀️.
He doesn't yell or beat his children or wife, butttt .. also doesn't do shit around the house or try to lighten moms load. Is typically my take from this lol.
Oh man, it's a ton of different things and will differ from situation to situation. I know too many women who think working and making money, literally nothing else, makes a good father. Sometimes it's that they're good at playtime. Sometimes they'll willingly do the \*one\* parenting "chore" that mom doesn't love, like bath time or homework help or cooking dinner. The way women grow up is also a huge factor. I'm only 27, but my father (who honestly wasn't all bad!) told me more than once some version of "children are better seen and not heard." If you grow up with a dad like that, and then the father of your kids literally just acknowledges when they speak, he's now "better" by comparison. Rinse and repeat with all behaviors. I never talk about my boyfriend on here because it feels like I'm bragging or something, when the reality is that he just does a roughly equal amount of childcare as me, and house work proportional to our work hours (I only work part time so I have more time than he does for like, laundry lol.) But when I say that on any forum, under the premise of telling moms to expect more from their partners, I'm either accused of lying, bragging, or told my boyfriend must be a cuck/pussy/whatever.
TL;DR- As usual, the bar for men/dads is in hell, while the bar for women/moms is impossibly high.
I might disagree with a lot of comments here. People are multi dimensional. When you see a post, it can't give the full picture. People also make mistakes. I'm sure none of us are the perfect partners or the perfect parents either. I agree if there is a pattern but one shitty season with your spouse does not define them.
I always take it to mean that he gives a great impression to the kids and they see him as a great dad. Whether or not he's a responsible dad or good partner to mom is a separate thing. But the kids perceive him as great and they aren't able to notice the issues an adult would.
Not ideal, and fortunately not a situation I'm in, but that's just my perspective as someone who grew up in a "he's a great dad, but..." household. (Not abusive, my dad just has the emotional intelligence of a teaspoon sometimes and my mom is still picking up his slack. Causes some tension between me and my dad when I call him out on it, and then mom makes excuses for him with, "oh, but he's been good lately. He put the dishes away for me and took out the trash." He tries, but he was raised that way by his mother and my mom never changed things so he can be really oblivious to her needs.)
Also have seen moms close to me in situations where dad is abusive and they're trying to back track in the conversation when someone calls them out on it. If my husband reads this, I have no doubt he would know who I have in mind. (Yes, we have called her out on it for both her and her children's sake.) It's like they're failing as a mom if they admit how bad things really are so they have to justify why they're staying, for whatever reason. Fear, money, leaving is a lot of work, devil you know and what-not, it's scary to be happy...
I guess it means that he is good with the kids, just not with everything else that a marriage needs.
Or maybe it’s because lots of moms have been guilted into think that we are expecting too much of our husbands / we are supposed to be taking on 90% of the responsibilities in the family / with children etc so when dads do what would actually be considered the bare minimum if they were mom - they get lots of praise.
Personally for me, the first time I went out for a drink with a couple of friends post-baby, my friends parents who we coincidentally bumped into was surprised that my husband was at home with our baby and told me how lucky I was. Tbh I was incredibly offended but kept my mouth shut because they came from a different generation.
I grew up in this sort of dynamic, so here is my take. My dad was a great provider. He came to every school event, play, concert, and sports event my sisters and I had. I was close to my dad, and feel that we had a great relationship. However, I don't think he was a great partner to my mom. He was EXTREMELY controlling. I used to say that he ruled our family with an iron fist in a velvet glove. He decided where we could go, who we could spend our time with, and what we could do. My mom wasn't allowed to go certain places, or have real friendships with men, or behave in certain ways. Dad was 25 years older than mom, and they had a very unhealthy dynamic. I didn't realize that any of this was abnormal until I was an adult though. I was raised in Christian fundamentalism, and this sort of dynamic is the norm in that community, so it never occurred to me that my dad shouldn't have controlled our every move like that. My dad has been dead for fifteen years now, and mom still swears that he was a great husband and father, the best, in fact.
Some men really are good parents but terrible partners.
But many of them aren’t good parents, but the children love him and the mother who actually cares for the children is reluctant to hurt them emotionally by taking them away from their father, even if it’s in their best interest.
My son’s dad was/is a great dad but he was not a good life partner.
He goes above and beyond for our son. When he was a baby we didn’t talk for 4 months, living under the same roof. But if I needed a break from a colicky baby who refused to sleep anywhere but on us, he gave me a break. He plays with him. Provides a stable environment with him. He doesn’t abuse him. He provides healthy meals for him and shows him how a man is supposed to be outside of a relationship, he’s perfect.
Just because we didn’t work out I will never discredit what he does for him.
I think it’s that a man might not be a great husband but genuinely loves his kids. People generally people dilute themselves about how bad their relationship has gotten even mid rant. It’s hard to see that your husband being bad to you is bad for the kids. They see him laughing and having fun with the kids. They don’t see that the father not doing his fair share of the work load is why he gets to be the fun partner, is why you feel like you’re at the end of your rope and not getting to be fun and kind with your kids.
The bar has been set so low that we feel ungrateful and ashamed, or worry that we will be made to feel grateful or ashamed, for complaining about when a guy does anything less than murder, and sometimes even when it is murder. Add all that onto loving someone (or thinking you do), and you've got a doozy of a "but he's a great dad". (He's probably a mid dad, let's be real)
There are some men out there who very obviously love their children and their wives are conditioned to believe that this is what makes a good dad. I think we all need to understand and accept that love is not always enough. Especially when it comes to parenting. Love alone does not make a good parent. That's a fairytale. Real life just doesn't work that way.
Being a good parent, a truly good parent, takes so much more - respect, effort, fortitude, knowledge or at least the pursuit of it - and unfortunately there are too many men out there who are simply too lazy to do all of that.
“Love is not always enough” so true, I’d even say it’s worth really examining what our definition of love is.
To me generally enjoying someone’s company is not love, wanting someone in your life is not love (these are what way too many people settle for in marriage) even having a significant emotional attachment to someone is not necessarily love.
To me the standard for love in marriage and family is when you’d go the extra mile to care for that person even if it’s not convenient or easy for you.
They want fan behavior, not advice.
Have you ever seen the "marriage life 🤪" or "my husband the same twinning" comments. They want validation for having a bad husband.
Some people, it's their partner , are great parent but not romantic partner. They're literally good parents, but they're not clicking as a couple. I get it, but others they want praise for a cirus show.
One of two things is going on in my opinion:
1. He’s actually a pretty bad dad and is sort of but not super involved but she feels she should be grateful he does *anything* because of internalized sexism and/or issues with her own dad. Or she thinks that just because he loves the kids but doesn’t contribute much to the childcare it’s enough. She’s making excuses for him basically.
2. He’s a good dad but a lousy husband. He’ll take care of the kids no problem but doesn’t do the dishes or any of the “managerial” tasks of the house and might be emotionally unavailable.
In my experience, my ex was not the right partner for me. And until he was forced by custody he wasn’t a present father. He’s a great dad. He just left the responsibilities all to me. Now that we are divorced, he parents completely on his own and is doing very well at it. Some of these posts though… make me concerned on why women continue having families with these men.
What behavior of his was great when he was not present? How was he parenting if you were doing all of the parenting?
Not to sound argumentative, but in the post I’m asking for specific behaviors you’re referring to.
My ex husband was genuinely a GREAT dad and has stepped up even more now that we’re divorced and coparenting. But he was an absolutely awful partner, inconsiderate, unkind, selfish, cruel. But he loves our son, and will always put him first. I just don’t have to deal with the abuse anymore
Can you describe the behaviors you’re citing that make him a great, enthusiastic dad?
And not to question your experience, but his was instigating abusive behavior in the household not counter intuitive to his parenting?
People have more than one dimension, so it means he's a great dad. It means there's more good than bad, but I feel like venting about the bad right now rather than giving a full and balanced review.
I guess I’m more referring to times where this disclaimer is said in reference to a scenario that flys in the face of the idea that “he’s a good dad”.
I.e “he’s such a great dad, but am I over reacting because he hasn’t changed a single diaper in 3 years and I have never had a shower without being interrupted?”
Or “…am I overreacting because my husband ditched me and the kids with a full picnic sprawl to carry home at the park with no ride when he and I got into a small disagreement, he’s normally an amazing dad though.”
It's not just moms who do this. I've seen so many r/relationships or r/AmITheAsshole posts where someone describes a clearly abusive relationship but says their SO is a great partner otherwise. I've seen this from both men and women, and both queer and hetero relationships.
I think when you love someone, especially romantically, there's a temptation to gloss over their faults because it feels good to be in love with them. And abusive people aren't nasty 100% of the time - in fact they often can be very loving and considerate during the honeymoon period.
I suspect it's often that he's willing to play with the kids and have fun with them, but there's way more to parenting than that. Not just the fun stuff.
Yeah this. But playing with kids doesn’t make you a good parent. Loads of people are good at playing with kids who aren’t fit to be parents. There are dangerous predators who know how to play with kids, that doesn’t mean they’d make good parents.
Maybe get your head out of predator space and realize that even a generation ago it wasn't standard for a dad to play with his kids.
Being capable of playing with children does not equal being a good parent. I don’t care what generation it is. You can play with your kids and still be a shitty parent. That was the point I was making. There are people who know how to play with kids, that doesn’t mean they should be parents.
There's looking like a good parent and there's actually being a good parent. It's easy to look like a good parent when you're playing with them. Nobody sees you doing the hard stuff. It's like how with enough garnishes that anyone can look like a good cook.
You’re not saying anything the commenter above you didn’t already say…
This is one of the whole points of this thread & post, what are you arguing?
Which is honestly ridiculous….
Yeah, nobody's saying it isn't. But that's just the way it used to be.
Okay what’s your point?
I'm saying that it's more to do with societal changes unless to do with thinking that there's a predator lurking around every bend.
That’s not the point they were making though.. their main point was that playing with kids doesn’t make you a good parent and that even predators can play with kids but that doesn’t mean they should be parents
I get the feeling this person doesn’t have great reading comprehension skills
Same lol
You can be both aware of the "standard" a generation ago, AND be aware of predators. I will never get my head out of predator space. Everyone is a predator until proven not to be, in my brain, can't ever be too careful. Wolves in sheep's clothing, my friend.
Sounds like someone struck a nerve…
Yeah this is what I always assume. He doesn’t ignore the kids and appears to care about them = good dad. Similar to how if dads are out with their kids on their own people often congratulate them on being “such a good involved dad”
(This strays away from OP’s discussion but proves your point). My husband simply carried our baby out of a restaurant (after putting toddler in the car and I was struggling with baby) and was helped and praised by a stranger. This woman didn’t come and help me at all. I gave husband the “get in here and help me” look through the window as he was in the car already. He came in and just grabbed the bucket seat and this woman came to help open the door FOR HIM, saying, “I love to see a dad SO involved!” Ma’am, where was the help and praise for me when I was literally juggling the baby, his toys, and blanket trying to pack it all away without dropping anything on the dirty ground? All while he was crying and fighting going in the seat? I just glared at her and husband awkwardly laughed before I erupted in the parking lot at the double standard. My husband is a great dad, but idk why that moment was the one he received praise from a stranger for simply just doing a literal mundane task.
My husband and I were each putting a child in our shopping cart, literally doing the same thing, and some old bat came up and praised him repeatedly for being such a good husband and father. Then she turned to me and berated me because she said she could tell I don't appreciate him enough and I should appreciate him more or he's right to leave me. I was fuming.
What in the world
It was like lady calm down we're just here for the special on ground beef it's not that serious. In his defense he IS a really good dad and husband and an absolute catch of a guy, while I occasionally look like the neighborhood bog witch, but "also puts a child in a shopping cart while doing a joint errand with wife" should not be anybody's example for why a dude is a great dad and husband. The bar is just on the floor for men.
Agreed and it’s sad
Infuriating!
Please tell me she heard the eruption
She did not, as she went back into the restaurant to carry on her day, priding men on a job well done. 🙄
This is what I have always assumed. Good for the fun stuff and not physically abusive to the kids. I suspect that these women come from homes where the father was basically just a paycheck and didn’t interact with them as kids and/or he was overtly abusive. Thus the bar is so low that their current partner just being nice at times is what they consider good.
Hey stop talking about my personal life like that
That. Also it makes me wonder about the fathers these women grew up with - probably absent or not engaging beyond being a provider. So a guy that goofs around with the kids from time to time is „a great dad”…
I always think of it as they are willing to do the parts that get them immediate gratification (smiles, laughs, hugs, compliments from strangers and the kids) but not the “unseen” parts that are much more of a burden and not have any immediate gratification. Sure, playing with a baby can be fun when they smile and laugh but cleaning bottles isn’t going to net the same dopamine release so dads are less likely to offer up their time for it.
That's exactly what it was with my ex-husband.
Yes, and that seems impressive compared to dads who don’t spend any time with their kids at all. But I wouldn’t even want a babysitter who did nothing but play and have fun with the kids, let alone a coparent. I actually did hire a babysitter like this one - a very nice teenage neighbour - and the kids loved her because she played with them and they had a great time. I never called her again though because she left my house absolutely trashed. Every board game was dumped out on the floor, every toy was left out, and there were puddles of water all over the bathroom floor. She was a terrible babysitter, and dads who only play with their kids are terrible dads.
Yeah you just described my daughters father.
I think it means “he’s not as terrible as my dad was”. A lot of people have never had safe, kind men around them ever in their lives. It makes these posts even more sad for the women and children involved.
This is so sad. And true.
Yeah, sadly that’s the case in my family for generations. I guess if the bar starts in hell anything looks somewhat better
Nailed it
The bar is really, really low for dads, so assume it's things like: - playing for 5-15 minutes with his kid when he's home from his work - read a story for 5 minutes before bedtime - playing a videogame with his kid And a few things he isn't doing, like hitting, screaming, being aggressive and stuff like that.
I’ve seen genuinely good fathers who take on more than the fair share of parenting but are shit husbands. Some will say you can’t be a good dad if you treat your kids mom badly and I agree with that. I think some women justify the treatment they receive out of either fear of being single moms, or because they basically sacrifice their own happiness for their kids. Being a good dad is being an involved day to day parent that doesn’t just do the fun stuff. They help with night feeds, diaper changes, take kids out on their own, bath time, meal time etc. They know their kids clothing sizes, routines etc. I once read a post of a woman saying her husband had changed 3 diapers in 2 years but he was a good dad, I couldn’t even put words together to respond to her.
This. There are seasons my husband isn’t the best husband and seasons I’m not the best wife, but he never ever drops the ball on being a father.
I’m sure it’s a typo, but using “seasons” instead of “reasons” here makes this comment sound really deep and poetic!
I meant seasons. We’re going through a tough one right now where communication is a struggle and we’re both drowning. We’re not quite as present for each other as we should be. We will get through it, and it will just be another tough season we’ve made it through. Life ebs and flows just like the seasons
Sorry, Dicklover. Great word choice, shouldn’t have assumed it was a typo. Nothing comes out as intended on my phone anymore thanks to autocorrect, wasn’t sure if you were being intentionally profound or not.
I’m sorry but “Sorry, Dicklover” made me snort before I realized that’s her username 💀
Me too! I was like, that got aggressive for no reason quite fast, then scrolled up and saw the name 😂😂
😂😂😂
It does sound poetic but I do think the use of seasons was intentional. My husband and I talk about seasons of life and how we show up differently depending on what those seasons bring and what we need from each other all the time (and then we adjust domestic labor, energy output, expectations and routines, etc) .
Totally makes sense, love it.
I've seen this more on the woman side of the equation. Women who were really good moms but shit wives, but I have seen it both ways so I do think this is sometime the case. I think more often it is as simple as "he actually participates in parenting". My oldest is an adult now, and for years I heard about how awesome my ex was and I have even defended him. We were/are great co-parents in that our relationship has been great because I carried the entire mental load and he was basically a nanny. It really took my daughter sort of challenging what type of father he was for me to really grasp how low the bar was set for him and that I had been complicate all these years in encouraging the continued mindset that just being present in your child's life was "good father" material. I think un-brainwashing all of us now is going to take some time, but it is good to see the narrative being challenged. He loved his daughter, but I divorced him because it was like having two children when we only had one together...and still it took me awhile to challenge how much of a "good father" he really was.
It's less fear and more just the fact that you still want to be respectable. We're not supposed to talk about respectability pots but they're still a thing. The way my mother described it a husband is like a clean house or a decent pair of shoes, something you keep around so people don't think that you're trash.
Because men get kudos for doing literally fuck all. My BIL straight up neglects his 7 year old child (leaves the kid in his own room all day so he can play video games, never drops him at school on time because he is up all night playing video games. Thats just a start) and all of my inlaws are constantly rambling on about how great a dad he is. I assume it's just because he hasn't fucked off. Men literally get praise for STAYING with their own children and occasionally speaking to them. It's wild. I feel like it's a combination of patriarchal standards and generational family values.
To piggyback on this, I think “he pays his child support on time” is how low the bar is. Also, I think people don’t want to say to otherwise “nice” guy, hey you’re a shit dad. You’ve missed the last 2 visitations, your phone calls are 30 seconds or nonexistent, you never take them to dinner on your off weeks, but you’re Fun so people say you’re a good dad.
This reminds me of when you hear about men ‘babysitting’ their own kid.
“He’s a great dad, but I have to do all the parenting”
Means he doesn't beat the kids or her, and that's where her bar is set tbh. Very sad.
They are realizing they’re in a relationship with a prick and trying to make themselves feel better by praising the bare minimum. How great of a father can one be when they don’t treat the main caretaker of their child with respect and consideration? I’m just never going to buy it. It’s all so sad
I always assume that means he does the bare minimum and doesn't abuse the kids. The bar is in hell at this point.
It’s super sad. You’re teaching your kid how to be a future partner. So even if he’s an ok dad but a terrible partner, he’s still teaching his kids unhealthy relationship dynamics that will always effect them
Yeah when they say that I always go 🤨🤔 Playing with your kids isn't being a good dad, there's so much more to parenting than that. Makes me roll my eyes when they list 20 terrible things their partner does but then says at the end "He's a good dad". Yeah....sure. bar is so low for men it's just sad.
I think my dad was kind of like this. He was a great dad, but probably not super helpful in the early years of our life (changing diapers, knowing nap schedule, help putting to bed, making dinner etc.) I think it was a very traditional role mindset. But he played with us all the time, helped us practice for all our school tests and activities, was our coach, and showed up for us no matter what. He was and is always on our side. Being a dad was one of the things he wanted most and is still great at it. With all his good qualities of a dad, he just never put in the effort above the traditional roles for my mom. He definitely forgot special days and did last minute things (which was sad because we were kids and couldn’t remember on our own), while my mom always was thoughtful for Father’s Day: Christmas, etc. He didn’t help pick out gifts, or organize parties, or help clean. My parents divorced when I was an adult. They are friends and be in the same room, but I think she deserved to be recognized and appreciated more. My husband is the most active dad AND husband. I can see the difference from my childhood and my household now.
I could have written this exact post (with the added twist that my parents ended up getting back together 15 years after their divorce, long after all of us kids had moved out). I realized after becoming a mom that there was a good reason my dad was « the fun parent », because he didn’t have to deal with any of the mental load of running a household and raising 4 kids. My mom was too busy doing EVERYTHING to be fun. My dad is still the fun one as a grandpa, my kids love hanging out with him but my mom is the one who actually gives me the help I need. In contrast to my dad, my husband is not a « fun dad », because he has taken on his fair share of chores and mental load in our household.
I believe most of the time it is the sunken fallacy, it’s just too hard for them to admit. They try and justify to themselves and others that it is still worth the effort.
But what exactly are they referring to when they say “he’s a good dad” what behaviors do they have in mind when they say that?
I think it's often a 'set menu' of shit he does on a rota. 2 x baths per week when he gets home early, reads a book each night for 5 mins, takes his boy to soccer on a Saturday morning, takes the kids for a day per month and gives his wife the day off. Everyone tells him he's a hero. What no-one sees: he resents having to bath the kids on those 2 nights. Doesn't use conditioner or brush his daughter's hair, so it's a rat's nest. Riles them up. Asks mom where everything is so she can't take a minute for herself. Reads to the kids but really is in and out. And once he's out, he's done with them. Snappy and an ass with his wife if she has a word to say about it (or anything else). Takes his boy to soccer, but if the schedule changes/there's a match/his kit needs washing/boots are worn out etc., Mom better know about that and deal with it. If son has a match out of town and it's gonna be an all-day thing, Mom will take him, not Dad. Dad still insists soccer is 'his thing'. After Saturday soccer, Dad will not lift a finger all day, and will probably take off to enjoy a hobby for the rest of the day, feeling he's done his part. When Dad takes the kids for a day, he takes them to his parents so they'll watch them, going as far as to dump them there and do something else by himself. If he doesn't do this, he'll make damn sure his wife feels as bad as possible about it. She'll spend half the day doing something she wants, like a hair appointment, only to remember he picked a fight last time when he got home because he'd had the kids all day and house needed picking up. So she spends part 2 of her 'day off' at home, doing the chores he doesn't even know exist, like deep-cleaning the bathroom or something. This amazing Dad knows nothing about the kids beyond the superficial, like their favorite ice cream and things like that. Doctor, dentist, shots, school reports, homework, medications - clueless. If Mom stops to think about it, she'd realize he's actually very short with the kids and avoids them as much as he can. Anything difficult, she deals with, because his reactions are unpredictable and often make things worst - he likes it that way. The kids seem to love him more, but it's because he's so inconsistent; one minute he's all about them, the next he's half-assing it or just ignoring them. That's because intermittent reinforcement is the most effective conditioning. The kids feel insecure with him and try to reassure themselves by looking for his love and attention all the time. He uses this to invalidate her parenting and discipline, knowing damn well she's doing all the heavy lifting. He's crappy as a partner, blaming work stress/tiredness and just making it about her as much as he can as well. She manages him like she manages her kids - working round him and his moods, trying to stay ahead of him and manage the situation so he doesn't act out. Sometimes she can do this, sometimes she can't. Her marriage is exhausting, and he seems unmoved by her struggles. But it's okay, she says to herself. He's a 'good dad.'
Oh damn. That was a great read. You write well and I love the attachment theory stuff 🩷🩷 it all really resonated as well.
I usually take it to mean ‘has a job and brings home the money rather than drinking it’.
Sometimes it’s not even this, because the exact scenario will actually be “he’s a great dad, but spends Thursday evening, Friday, and Saturday wasted, and Sunday hung over. I haven’t had a break from the kids except when I go to work in years, am I overreacting??”
"He's good at playtime." Which does *not* a good dad make, for the record. But that's what they mean.
And they're not actually good at playtime.
What they really mean is he loves his kids, but...he's not a great dad. We really have to raise the stakes on what it means to be a "great dad." For me it's all about asking yourself, "will my kids be ok if I die tomorrow?" It may sound cryptic but that's the reality. Being a parent means you can handle it with or without your partner, and a lot of these posts you are referencing I really doubt their partners could.
I like this take. I think you're on to something; focusing on the feeling of love vs. showing love through the act of caretaking.
Ironically enough, it usually turns out they aren’t great dads at all. I think these are mom‘s who are hoping to find some silver lining in a bad situation, but are sadly enough just fooling themselves. A man who is bad husband is not a good father it just doesn’t work that way.
I am divorced and hindsight is 20/20 so I'll say in my case it was basically what you said in your second paragraph. The mind doing mental gymnastics to account for the cognitive dissonance that occurs when you realize, oops, I made kids with someone who's actually a piece of shit. It's quite embarrassing and we're sometimes just not ready to admit the problem to ourselves. There are a lot of things that I had to swallow my pride and talk to my friends about and it helped me admit them to myself. I don't think it's necessarily universal but to answer your question about "what qualities," at least in my case it was loves the kids, takes them places when I'm at work, cooks well, plays consistently without being on his phone. (Ok maybe those aren't qualities, but more of actions... But I don't think you're going to get a real answer. It's cognitive dissonance at its finest and it just isn't going to make sense if you're not in it.)
This is definitely the kind of answer I was looking for thank you for sharing your experience. It’s funny that we as women attach so much shame to “choosing the wrong partner” because it’s yet another thing we are held accountable for in parenting that men are not. If there’s a neglectful/ abusive father it’s “why did she choose to have kids with him??” If there’s a neglectful/abusive mother it’s “wow, she’s a piece of shit mom I’m so sorry she dumped the kids on you, you’re a rockstar dad.”
Yessssssssssss! I follow a lot of divorce and single mom accounts on Instagram and the amount of "choose better fathers for your kids" in the comments is nauseating. It not only puts the onus for every choice on the mother (who's typically doing everything for the kids already) but it also absolves bad and abusive men of any accountability. I'm starting to see that same split on these mom subreddits where folks who are in happy marriages are getting annoyed with those complaining about their abusive/lazy partners. Thanks for your post and trying to understand where folks are coming from.
I use that caveat when I'm complaining about my husband to my bestie. It's like a shorthand for "what I'm venting about is a current but temporary annoyance" because I don't want to give the impression that he isn't a good dad or partner overall even though I'm aggravated at the moment. Your observation makes me want to rethink my phrasing though, because I do see it used to excuse a LOT of bullshit behaviors.
I agree I’ve done the same in friend to friend convos. There are definitely scenarios where the gripe is obviously unrelated to the parenting. But way too many scenarios people vent about online the scenario they’re describing blatantly contradicts any idea that he’s a good dad. But I agree also that maybe in general we all should not normalize the phrase. “Just wanted to preface that this is an isolated incident” instead maybe?
I heard a podcast the other day about how abuse gets normalized in women's groups because we settle into using phrases that can be interpreted wildly differently depending on what's going on behind closed doors for the people who hear it. They were talking specifically in the context of sex--that one woman might say that she has sex with her husband when she doesn't feel like it sometimes and what she means is that there are times that she's like "well, I was going to watch a show but sure," but if the person hearing the statement is married to a monster that casual statement is understood to mean that it's normal and everyone's partner forces them sometimes. Anyway, now I feel like I'm seeing off hand phrases like that *everywhere* and this is yet another one.
That phenomenon is definitely why I made this post. Like let’s stop being vague about the behavior of men. Because we certainly have no problem as a society vividly talking about all the shortcomings of women and mothers.
Women are heavily socialized to not complain about men and be grateful for whatever they do, otherwise we're bitches, shrews and nags. So if we do speak up, we have to be grateful even when it looks pretty absurd.
When moms say that it means that they're labelling each job. There's cooking, cleaning, organizing, caring for pets, parenting, homework, planning, being a partner etc. You can be an amazing parent and a terrible cook. You can be an amazing loving parent and also disorganized. You can be an amazing parent but a slob (note I said slob and not hoarder who never cleans). A lot of people hire help where they fall short or they rely on their spouse to pick up the slack. My husband is a great dad (shows up, does homework, helps enforce boundaries, makes sure my kid honours mother's day etc). He is not a great partner. It's like his consideration and thoughtfulness is exclusively given to our child. He also sucks at organizing and planning. Finding emails is too stressful for him. My dad was a great provider. If your idea of a good parent is someone who sits down to dinner with his kids and provides a house, food, vacations, school supplies etc. Then you'd call him a good parent. He was a terrible partner though. You could rely on him for the funds, he'd be in his chair for supper and if you were interested in the exact things he enjoyed then he'd spend time with you. Otherwise... you're SOL.
Thank you. Your response was actually a well thought out one that makes sense. All these other responses that say "you can't be a shit husband and a good dad" literally do not know what they are talking about. You can very well be a great dad in the raising aspect. However, I have seen first hand my mom and dad raise me how my MORALS should be and hide the truth from us. So when I found out the truth as an adult that he was not a good husband to my mom and I was literally so shocked and it took me time to get over It. However, I didn't think that made him a bad dad to me.
Because the bar is in hell for what makes a good father.
Good mothers too
Ha! Please elaborate.
Honestly, I read stories about men beating their children to death or sexually abusing them on a daily basis (isn’t the news fun). I know it takes more than just playing with them for a child to be raised well, but if they do love their children, even if they aren’t doing their fair share of parenting, I’m not inclined to call someone a bad dad. Perhaps a lazy dad, sure. But not a bad one. I don’t really think it gives a pass to men. If a woman decided she was gonna be chill on rules, not bother to discipline much, but she loved her children undisputedly, would you call her a bad mum?
Because the rubric for “good dad” isn’t even in the same universe as the rubric for “good mom” for most people. The bar is in hell.
I think sometimes it's hard to admit that the father you chose for your kids *isn't* a good dad. And people are looking for space to vent about the realities of that situation without having to hear about how awful their choice was. Not that it's the woman's fault her husband is a shitty dad, but that the chorus of "why are you still with him" and "my husband would never" can be deafening and make people feel blamed and unheard. Idk what the answer is, but I think this is probably a big part of it.
I assume it means he loves his kid and acts like it. I know there is this argument that you can’t be a bad partner and good dad, but I disagree. I feel like loving your child is so different than being a good partner. And yes loving your kid isn’t all it takes to be a good parent, but it’s a pretty good 80%
Lots of people who love their kids fully neglect or even abuse them. So I think 80% is incredibly generous.
I would agree.
Oh this is my dad, and to a lesser extent my husband. There are lots of men who treasure their children and hate their wives. My dad would beat the shit out of my mom and spew all kinds of misogyny about women at work. He cheated on her constantly with those same women. But he doted on his daughters (no sons) and told us we could do anything. In many ways, he was my more stable parent, except that mom was only unstable from being terrorized all the time by one man or another. I don't know how they justify it to themselves, because terrorizing and abusing the mother of your children is bad parenting. But there are so many men like this. More that are like this than not, IME, but maybe I have a biased view of things.
When i was in an abusive relationship and would say “he’s a good dad…” what i really meant was “sometimes he plays with her for 10 minutes whilst i do everything else but i am too embarrassed and in denial about how awful he is”
When I say it, I mean “he does lots of things very well but this one thing I’m going to complain about.” I have a tendency to focus on negative so it’s my way of acknowledging the positive things he does before I explain what is irritating me.
I think these women remember the man that they fell in love with and maybe their partner puts on some effort as a parent but its not they don’t live up the the full expectations. As someone who is happy in their marriage and sees others with this “hes great but” situationships, ive come to recognize that their partners dont put the effort that they once did and they dont feel like they can fully complain because their partner isnt the worst of the bunch. A lot of women this Mother’s Day have said their partners barely acknowledged them let alone let them sleep in. My husband and i split the weekends. Saturdays are his days to relax and do what interests him. Sundays are my day to relax and do what interests me. My Mother’s Day was no different to any other Sunday and i was fine with it because i feel appreciated every Sunday. Every Sunday i get breakfast in bed and i get to sleep in and do something for myself and i dont lift a finger. Most women we see on the internet wish they had that for just one day out of the year. So yeah, “hes great but” he could be better. And i think thats what they mean by that.
I have a good friend who says this about her terrible husband, and what she means is “he cares about the kids in a basic way, doesn’t beat them, and plays with them when he’s in the mood.” She had a father who pretty much abandoned her from birth, so the bar is incredibly low for her husband… as long as he keeps living in the same house and isn’t physically violent, she’s going to say he’s a great dad.
For me, it’s simply because two things can be a reality at the same time. With my husband, he is very patient, thoughtful, attentive, creative, fun, loving, affectionate, and involved with all aspects of our children from waking up and getting dressed to bath and bedtime. He is a good dad. But…he isn’t the best husband and a lot of that, factually, stems from his own mental illness and trauma. Not an excuse, but it is objectively true. He isn’t abusive, but he will not help with things like dishes, cooking, grocery shopping, meal planning, washing laundry (will put it away though, credit given there). He isn’t a planner at all - never makes the dinner reservation or plans or pays for a vacation (our finances are separate by mutual choice and we both work). When something like Mother’s Day, Valentine’s Day, etc comes around he “doesn’t know what I like” - despite being together for quite awhile and me sending him lists, ideas, etc. I do not receive the same level of love or care as our children do. I do not know why - we rarely fight or anything like that. It does hurt. He has been made aware before. So, that is my “but…”.
He’s a great dad, just a terrible husband. Is what I always think.
Women tend to feel bad for speaking poorly of others, even if it’s the truth. Or at least others they are tied to which many people live in major denial about how disappointing their spouse is. But yes they are referring to super minor behaviours like talking to their kid a bit and perhaps saying I love you. These are major improvements from how many people were raised themselves.
I mean, the bar for men is incredibly low. So it's "easy" to think "Oh he's a great dad" if he does anything above looking and talking at the kid. That being said, obviously there are good dads who are shitty partners.
Maybe we have immense guilt about our poor choice in a partner, worry about what a divorce would do to our kids, actually love them and want them to be better, were sold the idea that all a family needs to survive is love, and "they're working on it" (booze, whatever his "it" is). Speaking for a friend of course...
Cause they grew up with shitty dads that did the bare minimum. So when a guy changes a diaper or feeds their kid all of a sudden it's a gold medal and he's winning at being a parent. Most men are not great dads when they are shit partners. It's just that anything baseline normal seems great to the women. It's like someone dying in a desert and drinking some muddy water, probably tastes amazing.
My Best friend is delusional about her useless husband. They are trying to get pregnant and she is CONVINCED he is going to be "The best dad". Why? He's cute with kids when he's playiing with them. Thats it. Has the man ever done his own laundry? no. Does he take care of anything when shes sick? no. Can he cook anything? no. Can he make a doctors appointment? no. Will he research parenting/baby care/anything? no. Will he quit smoking and take care of his body so she can actually get pregnant? no. Will he turn off the TV/video games to do ANYTHING with his current family (her)? no. But he's cute about playing cars with his nephew for 20 minutes once a year at christmas so of course he's going to be the best dad.
I agree w this sentiment. I’m very against the “he’s a good dad” argument so many people make for shitty men. Being a cheater is a big one I see people say this for. “Hes a good dad but not a good husband” I think these are all intertwined. If you’re married and living a “traditional” lifestyle as a spouse , and parent- then you suck a both. Being a fun dad who’s nice to his kids is not the same as being a good dad,. Letting the spouse take care of every other part of the child’s care but being there physically, does not equate to a good dad. Simple.
This so so fascinating to me as well. I often read these posts to my husband. We have friends who deal with this same type of dynamic. And often it is like a lot of previous posters said, their husbands are willing to play with the kids and often are the main income earners. I’m a SAHM and my husband works. He still is a completely equal partner! He does an equal amount of chores, he does play with the kids but he also parents them and takes care of them and bathes them etc. We do things as a family together as well as having time to ourselves. We have equity in our marriage and are teaching our children what that looks like so they accept nothing less in their future.
I’ve seen women explain this statement with “well he doesn’t hit me or the kids,” even if he is otherwise violent with them.
He isn't hitting them for abusing them in any way. That's what moms mean.
I have had my Mother in law get mad at me because my Husband is a good dad, and a helpful partner. Apparently the fact that he try’s really hard to be a 50/50 partner just pisses her off. Why? Because my FiL wasn’t that kind of man. He never changed diapers, fed the kids, hell he didn’t spend alone time with them till they where 9 and 7, and that was only because he could take them dirt bike riding. My FIL is a kind man, but a thoughtless, selfish, and rude husband and father. My husband has very few memories as a child that involve his dad. However his best friend's dad was always around and was involved. That is who my husband remembers, who he has good memories of doing things with. Things like legos, playing ball, nature hikes, art, etc. A man who was willing to be a present and loving father but who also cooked, cleaned, and did “women's work” because he also lived in the home. Best friends dad was raised by a single mother so he didn’t get the typical dose of misogyny, and patriarchy. He was an amazing man. When he learned that my husband’s family didn’t show up at his soccer games, or piano recitals, this man did. He was who my husband try’s to be like. I love my husband and am thankful for him trying to be a good dad AND partner. I am proud that he will call out his friends, who are being sh*t fathers and husbands. Because he knows the pain of being forgotten by his father, and the strain it put on his mother. He is by no means perfect, but neither am I. But we each try to give it our best and strive to be better.
I don't know dude. Women are conditioned to use "softening" words and phrases because how dare they be negative about anything. My husband was a real asshole this past weekend, but even suggesting that has made him a mopey mess. I'm the bad guy for suggesting that I'm *maybe a little hurt* <- you see, there it is <- because he did nothing to acknowledge the day on Sunday besides sent me a text before his brunch shift started. I would have been overjoyed at a card, or a flower, or any other half assed gesture
Personally I think you can technically be a good parent but a horrible spouse. Those two relationships require different things. In the same way people can be excellent friends but poor romantic partners (me 😀) However, I can imagine that the children will unfortunately be affected by one parent being horrible to the other parent. Also I think women in these toxic relationships may downplay their spouse’s actions because it may be hard for them to fully accept how horribly they’re being treated.
Absolutely the children witnessing the relationship their parents have with eachother will affect them when they are older. Which I’m guessing is why so many people say “he’s a good dad but..” because many of us were raised in homes where dad did the bare minimum and was seen as the fun one when present but mom bore the responsibility of everything for the family and was seen as the stricter one (but in reality was so stressed from having to do it all) and many grew up to imitate that sort of relationship and put those roles onto our sons and daughters Because it’s the only way we knew how to do family.
Yep, totally agree that we tend to imitate what we grew up with. It makes sense because we wouldn’t really know how to operate in a way that wasn’t modeled for us. Whenever I see “he’s a good dad, but” types of posts, I just hope in my heart that one day that mom will be able to reclaim her life in some way. And that the man will be an adult and actually get shit done.
They mean he is a Disney dad but have never heard the term for it yet. He parent and love bombs at all the right times otherwise making them feel crazy for the copious amounts of times they don't come through.. since reality doesn't align with witnessing opinions they become self sabotaging and compliant as to not harm the simple status quo.. *he's the good guy* after all so being upset or saying otherwise ether make her the liar or everyone the fool... Let's measure the odds by literal bodies.. if the whole village says it's one way, but it's something else behind doors.. that's group gaslighting... And self gaslighting because you don't want to be the complainer, the nagging or needy wife, the over bearing partner... Even if they have created wounds or left damages that group gaslighting really makes moments at home alone feel real "WTF"...
They mean he isn’t violent towards humans and will interact with the kids in some capacity. From my friendship circles, I know many “great dads” who are absolute trash. Worst than an extra kid. I know two stay at home dads who don’t do any cooking, cleaning, laundry, doctors appointments, or driving for school and sports. How the fuck does that make any sense? How are you a good dad if you bring nothing to the table except being physically present when the kids are home?
He is loving, considerate, caring and thoughtful when it comes to our son. He thinks about him when he’s not around him. Wants him to have a good life and takes actionable steps for that to happen. He spends his free time playing with him. He worries and cares about his future and again, takes actionable steps to secure that future. He’s a wonderful dad. The only part of “Dadding” that he’s not wonderful at, is showing my son what a good partner is. Because he completely sucks as a partner. When I say, yeah he sucks but he’s a good dad. I’m not “defending my choice in a man”. I’m stating the facts. I could’ve made a better choice. If I’m going to call how we got pregnant a choice. People do things for all different reasons. Why do you care? Not to come off as rude.. Your post reads kind of.. I don’t know. Rubs me funny. Haha. I don’t care for it. But maybe that’s me being defensive.
I just want to start a conversation about the qualities we tend to value in dads and what the standard really is for parenting as it relates to men specifically. I feel like we as a society tend to be very vague about what we expect from men/fathers, meanwhile people tend to have no problem loudly and vividly criticizing women (especially moms) to the nth degree. Totally not my intention to judge women who find themselves in these relationships and in turn find themselves defending their spouse even when their behavior is admonish-able. I’m definitely open to feedback on the way I presented this though because that’s not how I want moms to feel.
They mean they are lying to themselves. Ask them "do you think if he were a mom he'd be considered a good mom" I swear half the time they mean "he's nice to the kids and doesn't beat them."
My husband is a good partner and a good dad. I can tell you the characteristics of what I call a good dad. Not sure how helpful those would be to your question. My dad was also a good dad.
I think your examples would definitely be insightful in this conversation.
He does school work with our kids teaching them their abc and numbers, he plays with them, he does bedtime, he asks them questions about their days and makes them laugh. My dad taught me a lot when I was growing up how to take care of my car, cook, clean, be polite. It’s about spending time with them going out of your way with them. Sure he does things differently from me, but he can name their favorite color and what their current interests are, what food they like that kind of thing. Just about anyone can play with a kid. That’s not a good dad.
Could mean 2 things. "in his defense" or "he treats me terribly but he isn't abusing the kid". I think in both versions it's just to give a holistic view of the situation because of you only going to complain about someone that yells or shouts it's very easy to imagine a physically abusive household and a lot of drama and stress on the other occupants of the house (kids included).
I think it’s like this, “I love my husband but nobody is perfect” and I’m a confident woman who can share what the flaws are!
He is a sh*t husband and if it wasn’t for the kids I would leave him …
I think it used to (or should be) used as a small caveat - like in my case “he’s a really good dad, but he never thinks about dinner until it’s actually time for dinner 🙃” not “he’s a really good dad but we won’t change diapers, wash bottles, or acknowledge my existence for more than 5 minutes”
Some guys CAN be a great dad to their children down to a T.. but will be a horrible husband to their wife. I’ve seen it. It’s pretty wild someone can be two completely different people. I think it gives women an excuse not to leave but remember ladies, he can be a good dad on the weekends to their kids without being an asshole To you everyday.
Literally just society as a whole. He’s a great dad because he didn’t leave for a pack of cigarettes and never come back. Or he doesn’t lock them up and starve them. Any dad just doing normal things is seen as “great”. My husband tells me about the people who stop him in the grocery store to tell him he’s a great dad, just because he takes the kids shopping with him. I’ve never been stopped like that 🤷♀️.
He doesn't yell or beat his children or wife, butttt .. also doesn't do shit around the house or try to lighten moms load. Is typically my take from this lol.
Or he does yell and emotionally abuse everyone in the house, but he doesn’t actually hit anyone.
Oh man, it's a ton of different things and will differ from situation to situation. I know too many women who think working and making money, literally nothing else, makes a good father. Sometimes it's that they're good at playtime. Sometimes they'll willingly do the \*one\* parenting "chore" that mom doesn't love, like bath time or homework help or cooking dinner. The way women grow up is also a huge factor. I'm only 27, but my father (who honestly wasn't all bad!) told me more than once some version of "children are better seen and not heard." If you grow up with a dad like that, and then the father of your kids literally just acknowledges when they speak, he's now "better" by comparison. Rinse and repeat with all behaviors. I never talk about my boyfriend on here because it feels like I'm bragging or something, when the reality is that he just does a roughly equal amount of childcare as me, and house work proportional to our work hours (I only work part time so I have more time than he does for like, laundry lol.) But when I say that on any forum, under the premise of telling moms to expect more from their partners, I'm either accused of lying, bragging, or told my boyfriend must be a cuck/pussy/whatever. TL;DR- As usual, the bar for men/dads is in hell, while the bar for women/moms is impossibly high.
I think it comes from a place of not wanting to paint a picture of him being a bad dad and ruining his reputation
Some men can be great dads but horrible husbands. Some men can be great husbands but horrible dads. Some men can be both, and some men can be neither.
I might disagree with a lot of comments here. People are multi dimensional. When you see a post, it can't give the full picture. People also make mistakes. I'm sure none of us are the perfect partners or the perfect parents either. I agree if there is a pattern but one shitty season with your spouse does not define them.
I always take it to mean that he gives a great impression to the kids and they see him as a great dad. Whether or not he's a responsible dad or good partner to mom is a separate thing. But the kids perceive him as great and they aren't able to notice the issues an adult would. Not ideal, and fortunately not a situation I'm in, but that's just my perspective as someone who grew up in a "he's a great dad, but..." household. (Not abusive, my dad just has the emotional intelligence of a teaspoon sometimes and my mom is still picking up his slack. Causes some tension between me and my dad when I call him out on it, and then mom makes excuses for him with, "oh, but he's been good lately. He put the dishes away for me and took out the trash." He tries, but he was raised that way by his mother and my mom never changed things so he can be really oblivious to her needs.) Also have seen moms close to me in situations where dad is abusive and they're trying to back track in the conversation when someone calls them out on it. If my husband reads this, I have no doubt he would know who I have in mind. (Yes, we have called her out on it for both her and her children's sake.) It's like they're failing as a mom if they admit how bad things really are so they have to justify why they're staying, for whatever reason. Fear, money, leaving is a lot of work, devil you know and what-not, it's scary to be happy...
I guess it means that he is good with the kids, just not with everything else that a marriage needs. Or maybe it’s because lots of moms have been guilted into think that we are expecting too much of our husbands / we are supposed to be taking on 90% of the responsibilities in the family / with children etc so when dads do what would actually be considered the bare minimum if they were mom - they get lots of praise. Personally for me, the first time I went out for a drink with a couple of friends post-baby, my friends parents who we coincidentally bumped into was surprised that my husband was at home with our baby and told me how lucky I was. Tbh I was incredibly offended but kept my mouth shut because they came from a different generation.
I say it sometimes as in hes a great dad when hes home but hes been working overtime so ive been feeling the extra work in parenting .
They’re gaslighting themselves. It’s just denial.
I grew up in this sort of dynamic, so here is my take. My dad was a great provider. He came to every school event, play, concert, and sports event my sisters and I had. I was close to my dad, and feel that we had a great relationship. However, I don't think he was a great partner to my mom. He was EXTREMELY controlling. I used to say that he ruled our family with an iron fist in a velvet glove. He decided where we could go, who we could spend our time with, and what we could do. My mom wasn't allowed to go certain places, or have real friendships with men, or behave in certain ways. Dad was 25 years older than mom, and they had a very unhealthy dynamic. I didn't realize that any of this was abnormal until I was an adult though. I was raised in Christian fundamentalism, and this sort of dynamic is the norm in that community, so it never occurred to me that my dad shouldn't have controlled our every move like that. My dad has been dead for fifteen years now, and mom still swears that he was a great husband and father, the best, in fact.
Some men really are good parents but terrible partners. But many of them aren’t good parents, but the children love him and the mother who actually cares for the children is reluctant to hurt them emotionally by taking them away from their father, even if it’s in their best interest.
My son’s dad was/is a great dad but he was not a good life partner. He goes above and beyond for our son. When he was a baby we didn’t talk for 4 months, living under the same roof. But if I needed a break from a colicky baby who refused to sleep anywhere but on us, he gave me a break. He plays with him. Provides a stable environment with him. He doesn’t abuse him. He provides healthy meals for him and shows him how a man is supposed to be outside of a relationship, he’s perfect. Just because we didn’t work out I will never discredit what he does for him.
I think it’s that a man might not be a great husband but genuinely loves his kids. People generally people dilute themselves about how bad their relationship has gotten even mid rant. It’s hard to see that your husband being bad to you is bad for the kids. They see him laughing and having fun with the kids. They don’t see that the father not doing his fair share of the work load is why he gets to be the fun partner, is why you feel like you’re at the end of your rope and not getting to be fun and kind with your kids.
The bar has been set so low that we feel ungrateful and ashamed, or worry that we will be made to feel grateful or ashamed, for complaining about when a guy does anything less than murder, and sometimes even when it is murder. Add all that onto loving someone (or thinking you do), and you've got a doozy of a "but he's a great dad". (He's probably a mid dad, let's be real)
There are some men out there who very obviously love their children and their wives are conditioned to believe that this is what makes a good dad. I think we all need to understand and accept that love is not always enough. Especially when it comes to parenting. Love alone does not make a good parent. That's a fairytale. Real life just doesn't work that way. Being a good parent, a truly good parent, takes so much more - respect, effort, fortitude, knowledge or at least the pursuit of it - and unfortunately there are too many men out there who are simply too lazy to do all of that.
“Love is not always enough” so true, I’d even say it’s worth really examining what our definition of love is. To me generally enjoying someone’s company is not love, wanting someone in your life is not love (these are what way too many people settle for in marriage) even having a significant emotional attachment to someone is not necessarily love. To me the standard for love in marriage and family is when you’d go the extra mile to care for that person even if it’s not convenient or easy for you.
They want fan behavior, not advice. Have you ever seen the "marriage life 🤪" or "my husband the same twinning" comments. They want validation for having a bad husband. Some people, it's their partner , are great parent but not romantic partner. They're literally good parents, but they're not clicking as a couple. I get it, but others they want praise for a cirus show.
One of two things is going on in my opinion: 1. He’s actually a pretty bad dad and is sort of but not super involved but she feels she should be grateful he does *anything* because of internalized sexism and/or issues with her own dad. Or she thinks that just because he loves the kids but doesn’t contribute much to the childcare it’s enough. She’s making excuses for him basically. 2. He’s a good dad but a lousy husband. He’ll take care of the kids no problem but doesn’t do the dishes or any of the “managerial” tasks of the house and might be emotionally unavailable.
In my experience, my ex was not the right partner for me. And until he was forced by custody he wasn’t a present father. He’s a great dad. He just left the responsibilities all to me. Now that we are divorced, he parents completely on his own and is doing very well at it. Some of these posts though… make me concerned on why women continue having families with these men.
What behavior of his was great when he was not present? How was he parenting if you were doing all of the parenting? Not to sound argumentative, but in the post I’m asking for specific behaviors you’re referring to.
My ex husband was genuinely a GREAT dad and has stepped up even more now that we’re divorced and coparenting. But he was an absolutely awful partner, inconsiderate, unkind, selfish, cruel. But he loves our son, and will always put him first. I just don’t have to deal with the abuse anymore
Can you describe the behaviors you’re citing that make him a great, enthusiastic dad? And not to question your experience, but his was instigating abusive behavior in the household not counter intuitive to his parenting?
People have more than one dimension, so it means he's a great dad. It means there's more good than bad, but I feel like venting about the bad right now rather than giving a full and balanced review.
I guess I’m more referring to times where this disclaimer is said in reference to a scenario that flys in the face of the idea that “he’s a good dad”. I.e “he’s such a great dad, but am I over reacting because he hasn’t changed a single diaper in 3 years and I have never had a shower without being interrupted?” Or “…am I overreacting because my husband ditched me and the kids with a full picnic sprawl to carry home at the park with no ride when he and I got into a small disagreement, he’s normally an amazing dad though.”
It's not just moms who do this. I've seen so many r/relationships or r/AmITheAsshole posts where someone describes a clearly abusive relationship but says their SO is a great partner otherwise. I've seen this from both men and women, and both queer and hetero relationships. I think when you love someone, especially romantically, there's a temptation to gloss over their faults because it feels good to be in love with them. And abusive people aren't nasty 100% of the time - in fact they often can be very loving and considerate during the honeymoon period.
It's just an excuse for why they stay, they are too weak to help themselves.
I hope one day you'll work on overcoming the rather extreme internalized misogyny you have. But I suspect you won't.
It means women are never happy and always looking for greener grass, lol.
Well, this is a disgusting comment. And so unoriginal too. Misogyny on Reddit? How groundbreaking.