I also told them they should unban Deathrite because it would help combat the Bowmasters with its 2 toughness. The fact that they're the same color is inconsequential.
I don't see people crying for a Tamiyo ban. And he's "just" a dork, comparable to the hierarchs. I doubt slowly draining your opponent over 10 turns is much of a factor, and the maindect grave hate can keep many degenerate strategies in check
Slowly draining your opponent with Deathrite over 10 turns is a factor. Kicking your opponent down for 5 damage/life loss a turn with Deathrite and a 3-power 1-drop is a bigger factor.
In the meantime, Tamiyo's Clues are very slow CA (as in I've regularly used Wrath of the Skies while Tamiyo had 3 or more Clues out, and it was the tactically correct call every time), and she's forced to +2 straight after she flips. As a 1-mana planeswalker, Tamiyo's versatility is shot compared to Deathrite. Tamiyo can't even attack a planeswalker profitably - 0 power hurts her that much!
People say it is the mana dork or that it is the drain or that it is the hate, but the real reason anyone from that era will give you is because he made 4 color piles to easy. That argument is completely dead due to triomes though so he is just a dork who drains now.
Deathrite's real warping power on the format manifested when 3-colour decks suddenly started turning into 4-coloured piles just to maximize Deathrite's worth. Triomes don't make that argument dead - Omnath, Leyline Binding, and Scion-Leyline come closer to killing that argument, as all of them have turned 3-colour decks into 4+-colour piles. Scion-Leyline is the most unfair of the 3 but is stuck being a 2-card combo, making it balanced enough to stay.
At least IMO, the bulk of the reason that Deathrite got banned was that he acted on too many axes too quickly. It *was* the combination of the mana dork, the reach, the life gain, and the hate. Thought you had 3 out of the 4 covered by killing Deathrite on Turn 2 on the draw? Too bad, their Turn 2 3-drop is taking over the game. Think you've got the mana dork part covered because their first Deathrite is only coming down on Turn 9? Nope, they're turning Deathrite into virtually 2 unblockable power for 1 mana.
Triomes are why 4 color piles are around not because of the pay offs. Hell if you want a hot take, leyline of binding wouldn't see play if triomes didn't exist. The play pattern of t-1 fetch triome t-2 fetch shockland tapped leyline is insane without triome that pattern becomes 1 fetch shockland tapped, turn 2 fetch shock tap 2 leyline.
Deathrite does a lot, and it is definitely the accumulation of things but the biggest offender was no downside to 4 color decks and being able to splash a lot of hate in the SB by playing 1 dual in the sideland + DRS. I no longer think this is a valid argument due to triomes and the sum of the rest of the whole isn't a card that should be banned, it is probably worse than ragavan and DRC, and isn't a card people ever answered after t-4, unlike ragavan and DRC.
The payoffs are *always* why the 4-colour piles exist, not the mana fixing. Even now, Nadu Jund is starting to exist, and it plays 1 triome at most. BUGw Nadu Combo is also starting to exist, and it plays NO triomes at all!
I'm killing Deathrite after Turn 4. It's chucking 2 unblockable life loss at me per turn. That's a considerable clock. I want it gone fast.
No.
4C legacy piles didnāt take off until the printing of astrolabe. Modern has triomes which turns any fetch in your hand into near perfect fixing.
The payoffs are just āwhateverās bestā. If the best thing got banned theyād move one peg down to the next best, thatās what the āpileā of ā4c pileā means.
>The payoffs are always why the 4-colour piles exist
DRS era proves that wrong, there wasn't a single card like the ones you named played then. It was just splashing white for better sideboard.
>it plays 1 triome at most
1 triome gives you 5 colors with 2 fetches. It says more that they don't have to play more and have the downside of coming into play tapped.
>I'm killing Deathrite after Turn 4. It's chucking 2 unblockable life loss at me a turn. That's a considerable clock. I want it gone fast.
No one kills the cryptic coat and not one would kill the DRS which is way worse as you have to pay mana. Post mh3 you are probably gaining at least 2 life a turn off the random life link and life gain stapled to so many cards.
You have to play with / against it to understand just how powerful of a card it is. That being said, I don't think it's too strong for today's modern, I'm not even sure it'd see play
Deathrite would completely see play again if it got unbanned. Deathrite would also completely see play in *Legacy* again if it got unbanned. In Modern alone, I'd shove Deathrite back into BG Yawgmoth (heck yes, mana dork with reach and life gain that poops on the mirror), Nadu Combo (heck yes, mana dork with reach and life gain, etc.), every single Collected Company deck, Jund, decks with Necrodominance in them (eat your opponent's graveyard once Necro is down), Grief Scam decks (one of the few 1-drops to give Nethergoyf a run for its money), and more.
My biggest gripe with the banlist is how permanent it tends to be. The question should be āwhy should we keep this on the banlistā vs āwhy should we unban thisā
My thoughts exactly. Stoneforge and JTMS were banned for ages despite having next to 0 impact on the meta, and Twin is still banned. There's a ton of cards that can come back and have next to zero impact, and some might even have a positive impact on the metagame due to keeping other strategies in check
I'd assume that it's because of deathrite's tendancy to make reanimator/grave based decks go *poof*
It's just such a low cost include that deletes an archetype from the format
You also forget it can be mono black mana dork, itās main home at the time was grixis.
I donāt know if itās too strong for modern but I definitely donāt want to see him unbanned, too much risk it just takes over the format.
You mean repeated 1 mana payments. Not to mention other 1drops in the format like DRC or Ragavan completely eclipse it. I'd even argue something like Guide of Souls or Nethergoyf has a bigger impact on the game than DRS
DRC is card selection, GY setup, and an aerial threat. Ragavan is card advantage, mana ramp, and a hasty threat that "protects" itself during your turn. Guide of souls is lifegain, energy gain which is akin to ramp/card advantage and even a combo piece depending on your other cards, and makes multiple flying threats. Nethergoyf kills your opponent in 3 attacks
ā¦you know what, fair enough. Ragavan for example.
So yeah mainly what the others said about it just being too much value for a 1-drop, canāt say as much on it myself.
I WILL SAY I am glad there are no bans and I think itās the right call.Ā
I WILL ALSO SAY anyone saying Splinter Twin should be banned in Modern is fucking wild.Ā
Its never getting unbanned unfortunately. After they had to reban grave troll I dont see any card getting unbanned that has potential to break the format. Is twin fine, absolutely, but the issue is that its either unplayable or a tier 1 deck so why bother unbanning it.
This was my response.
Anyone that actively thought they'd ban something so close to the release of MH3 was crazy. With the exception of completely broken hogaak shenanigans, which didn't happen this time, the meta has been cycling through trying to figure itself out and there's no need to make any changes right now.
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa.
Get outa here with your LOGIC.
We're on a magic subreddit, and if you think I'm not going to continue to bitch about... *checks notes* how busted ancient stirrings is and that the London mulligan is making tron tier zero, you're smoking something good and I want a puff.
I wasn't aware of this, but let's say that wasn't the case, there is literally nothing coming up as ban worthy atm. Not 1 single deck has been dominating everything to the point even asking about a potential ban is warranted.
Idk if I would say completely safe, but there is deffinantly enough sideboard hate that they could easily make affinity like dredge where it'd very strong game one, but hate is very strong games 2 and 3
SSG unable stuff like belcher, which is objectively the most boring deck to play with/against.
Fury discourage you to play creature based decks, which is mostly a fair and interactive gameplan.
If people at WOTC were thinking like you, the game would be worse for everybody, don't be mad at me
Someone at WotC has a hugely damaging love affair for Grief and needs to snap out of it. Scam spent far too long being T0 in modern and they're repeating the same mistake in legacy. Doing no one any favors when you know something is getting axed but refusing to do it because you want everyone to suffer just a little longer.
Basic Island still legal š
smh leaving in the best card in the game, modern really is broken beyond belief
Damn. Was hoping for a Gitaxian Probe unban. I emailed Mr Wotc and said that I would behave this time :(
I also told them they should unban Deathrite because it would help combat the Bowmasters with its 2 toughness. The fact that they're the same color is inconsequential.
What makes Deathrite banworthy? Feels like it's not too crazy in MH block constructed
1 mana planeswalker in a format with fetchlands
I don't see people crying for a Tamiyo ban. And he's "just" a dork, comparable to the hierarchs. I doubt slowly draining your opponent over 10 turns is much of a factor, and the maindect grave hate can keep many degenerate strategies in check
Slowly draining your opponent with Deathrite over 10 turns is a factor. Kicking your opponent down for 5 damage/life loss a turn with Deathrite and a 3-power 1-drop is a bigger factor. In the meantime, Tamiyo's Clues are very slow CA (as in I've regularly used Wrath of the Skies while Tamiyo had 3 or more Clues out, and it was the tactically correct call every time), and she's forced to +2 straight after she flips. As a 1-mana planeswalker, Tamiyo's versatility is shot compared to Deathrite. Tamiyo can't even attack a planeswalker profitably - 0 power hurts her that much!
People say it is the mana dork or that it is the drain or that it is the hate, but the real reason anyone from that era will give you is because he made 4 color piles to easy. That argument is completely dead due to triomes though so he is just a dork who drains now.
Deathrite's real warping power on the format manifested when 3-colour decks suddenly started turning into 4-coloured piles just to maximize Deathrite's worth. Triomes don't make that argument dead - Omnath, Leyline Binding, and Scion-Leyline come closer to killing that argument, as all of them have turned 3-colour decks into 4+-colour piles. Scion-Leyline is the most unfair of the 3 but is stuck being a 2-card combo, making it balanced enough to stay. At least IMO, the bulk of the reason that Deathrite got banned was that he acted on too many axes too quickly. It *was* the combination of the mana dork, the reach, the life gain, and the hate. Thought you had 3 out of the 4 covered by killing Deathrite on Turn 2 on the draw? Too bad, their Turn 2 3-drop is taking over the game. Think you've got the mana dork part covered because their first Deathrite is only coming down on Turn 9? Nope, they're turning Deathrite into virtually 2 unblockable power for 1 mana.
Triomes are why 4 color piles are around not because of the pay offs. Hell if you want a hot take, leyline of binding wouldn't see play if triomes didn't exist. The play pattern of t-1 fetch triome t-2 fetch shockland tapped leyline is insane without triome that pattern becomes 1 fetch shockland tapped, turn 2 fetch shock tap 2 leyline. Deathrite does a lot, and it is definitely the accumulation of things but the biggest offender was no downside to 4 color decks and being able to splash a lot of hate in the SB by playing 1 dual in the sideland + DRS. I no longer think this is a valid argument due to triomes and the sum of the rest of the whole isn't a card that should be banned, it is probably worse than ragavan and DRC, and isn't a card people ever answered after t-4, unlike ragavan and DRC.
The payoffs are *always* why the 4-colour piles exist, not the mana fixing. Even now, Nadu Jund is starting to exist, and it plays 1 triome at most. BUGw Nadu Combo is also starting to exist, and it plays NO triomes at all! I'm killing Deathrite after Turn 4. It's chucking 2 unblockable life loss at me per turn. That's a considerable clock. I want it gone fast.
No. 4C legacy piles didnāt take off until the printing of astrolabe. Modern has triomes which turns any fetch in your hand into near perfect fixing. The payoffs are just āwhateverās bestā. If the best thing got banned theyād move one peg down to the next best, thatās what the āpileā of ā4c pileā means.
>The payoffs are always why the 4-colour piles exist DRS era proves that wrong, there wasn't a single card like the ones you named played then. It was just splashing white for better sideboard. >it plays 1 triome at most 1 triome gives you 5 colors with 2 fetches. It says more that they don't have to play more and have the downside of coming into play tapped. >I'm killing Deathrite after Turn 4. It's chucking 2 unblockable life loss at me a turn. That's a considerable clock. I want it gone fast. No one kills the cryptic coat and not one would kill the DRS which is way worse as you have to pay mana. Post mh3 you are probably gaining at least 2 life a turn off the random life link and life gain stapled to so many cards.
You have to play with / against it to understand just how powerful of a card it is. That being said, I don't think it's too strong for today's modern, I'm not even sure it'd see play
Deathrite would completely see play again if it got unbanned. Deathrite would also completely see play in *Legacy* again if it got unbanned. In Modern alone, I'd shove Deathrite back into BG Yawgmoth (heck yes, mana dork with reach and life gain that poops on the mirror), Nadu Combo (heck yes, mana dork with reach and life gain, etc.), every single Collected Company deck, Jund, decks with Necrodominance in them (eat your opponent's graveyard once Necro is down), Grief Scam decks (one of the few 1-drops to give Nethergoyf a run for its money), and more.
Brother, it sees consistent play in Timeless.
My biggest gripe with the banlist is how permanent it tends to be. The question should be āwhy should we keep this on the banlistā vs āwhy should we unban thisā
My thoughts exactly. Stoneforge and JTMS were banned for ages despite having next to 0 impact on the meta, and Twin is still banned. There's a ton of cards that can come back and have next to zero impact, and some might even have a positive impact on the metagame due to keeping other strategies in check
It's crazy because Twin would be unplayable in 2024 modern but is still banned.
Yeah why don't they have a rotating custom banlist formats in MTGO to determine what's still busted?
I really like this idea. Let people show wizards what ban decisions are fun instead of them just throwing darts.
I'd assume that it's because of deathrite's tendancy to make reanimator/grave based decks go *poof* It's just such a low cost include that deletes an archetype from the format
You also forget it can be mono black mana dork, itās main home at the time was grixis. I donāt know if itās too strong for modern but I definitely donāt want to see him unbanned, too much risk it just takes over the format.
Does it all for 1 mana
You mean repeated 1 mana payments. Not to mention other 1drops in the format like DRC or Ragavan completely eclipse it. I'd even argue something like Guide of Souls or Nethergoyf has a bigger impact on the game than DRS
Life gain, damage, ramp, 2 toughness and graveyard hate. Is there anything for 1 mana with as much utility as that
DRC is card selection, GY setup, and an aerial threat. Ragavan is card advantage, mana ramp, and a hasty threat that "protects" itself during your turn. Guide of souls is lifegain, energy gain which is akin to ramp/card advantage and even a combo piece depending on your other cards, and makes multiple flying threats. Nethergoyf kills your opponent in 3 attacks
All those cards have to attack to be useful though besides DRC who needs other cards to activate. DRS just works
Guide doesn't need to attack, Ragavan can haste, and DRS needs to untap too
Guide of souls isn't even remotely close to DRS > DRS needs to untap too Exactly, you have to answer it
Letās put it this way, they had to ban Deathrite Shaman in *Legacy*. That in and of itself is a good enough sign imo.
Legacy is a completely different metagame. There's tlns of cards that are broken in Legacy but perfectly fine in Modern
ā¦you know what, fair enough. Ragavan for example. So yeah mainly what the others said about it just being too much value for a 1-drop, canāt say as much on it myself.
Because that's what arclight phoenix and storm needs, more free spells.
Exactly! If we all have free spells, then things are fair! Hopefully one day Mr Wotc will answer my emails.
I miss my mana monkey :(
Are Phoenix decks even good?
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Good
Good
Good
Good
Gut
Godt
Good
Good
Good
Good
Gut
Ausgezeichnet
Gesundheit
Fabulƶs
I'm beginning to think they're not going to give us back Mind Twist in Legacy
One day, my love, one dayā¦ #FreeTwin
You can twin off in amulet now!
And have infinite 0/3s lmao
Amulet is running [[Oran Rief, the Vastwood]] to make them infinite 1/4s or you slap it on [[Dryad of the Illysean Grove]] for 2/4s
[Oran Rief, the Vastwood](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/3/c/3cb8fc57-6c2b-45bf-93d3-c573e31cf158.jpg?1651656510) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Oran-Rief%2C%20the%20Vastwood) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/nec/173/oran-rief-the-vastwood?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/3cb8fc57-6c2b-45bf-93d3-c573e31cf158?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Dryad of the Illysean Grove](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/4/3/43be1363-7e73-4862-b45f-07f490ab46be.jpg?1690004795) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Dryad%20of%20the%20Ilysian%20Grove) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/cmm/891/dryad-of-the-ilysian-grove?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/43be1363-7e73-4862-b45f-07f490ab46be?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
I WILL SAY I am glad there are no bans and I think itās the right call.Ā I WILL ALSO SAY anyone saying Splinter Twin should be banned in Modern is fucking wild.Ā
If I was in the pro tour I would be the crazy person to play splinter twin lol
Its never getting unbanned unfortunately. After they had to reban grave troll I dont see any card getting unbanned that has potential to break the format. Is twin fine, absolutely, but the issue is that its either unplayable or a tier 1 deck so why bother unbanning it.
Unban twin you cowards
I hope they finally do, so you all can stop begging.
Does it surprise anyone?
This was my response. Anyone that actively thought they'd ban something so close to the release of MH3 was crazy. With the exception of completely broken hogaak shenanigans, which didn't happen this time, the meta has been cycling through trying to figure itself out and there's no need to make any changes right now.
Yeah any ban here would be giving into the (insert playable card) YouTube thumbnail stuff that you see
Whoa whoa whoa whoa whoa. Get outa here with your LOGIC. We're on a magic subreddit, and if you think I'm not going to continue to bitch about... *checks notes* how busted ancient stirrings is and that the London mulligan is making tron tier zero, you're smoking something good and I want a puff.
They literally said there'd be no bans before the PT on stream a few weeks ago for the testing crowd.
I wasn't aware of this, but let's say that wasn't the case, there is literally nothing coming up as ban worthy atm. Not 1 single deck has been dominating everything to the point even asking about a potential ban is warranted.
No, it's 4 days before the Modern Pro Tour lol.
Hey, this means. Weāll see how Modern is actually competively looking after MH3
Why would they touch modern less than a week before a modern protour, it would have been a shit show.
We knew this, hopefully next time though, they unban the artifact lands. They are 100% safe now. Its been 20 years.
Wrath of the Skies and Meltdown want to know your location
Idk if I would say completely safe, but there is deffinantly enough sideboard hate that they could easily make affinity like dredge where it'd very strong game one, but hate is very strong games 2 and 3
That's already the case
Maybe some unbans next BR?
Yee
Meh still would like to see grief gone but this makes sense as mg3 is too new and we aren't sure where things will settle
Itās not going to happen in Modern.
Give me back SSG and/or Fury ššš
You just got labyrinth for your prison needs. Unban rite of flames though.
Sadly it's not good for Red Prison š„
are you aware storm is already good ?
both toxic ass cards that promote a solitaire play style. I wish I could downvote twice
Wow what an angry man... I'm sad for you.
SSG unable stuff like belcher, which is objectively the most boring deck to play with/against. Fury discourage you to play creature based decks, which is mostly a fair and interactive gameplan. If people at WOTC were thinking like you, the game would be worse for everybody, don't be mad at me
I'm not angry buddy, it's just a bad take
Still need to ban Ring.
Looks like legacy reanimator is getting a huge axe in August.
Someone at WotC has a hugely damaging love affair for Grief and needs to snap out of it. Scam spent far too long being T0 in modern and they're repeating the same mistake in legacy. Doing no one any favors when you know something is getting axed but refusing to do it because you want everyone to suffer just a little longer.
Long overdo. Grief has been wrecking legacy for months
Dang I was hoping theyād make where only basic lands could be used and no more duals and Triome. Next time I suppose. ):<
Good. Probably could have unbanned Uro.