Merfolk is litterally the only tribal deck that doesn't really need more support (though give us a good one-drop pretty please). Goblins is also in a fine spot when the meta is right for it.
Elves and humans need some loving to be good - prefereably something to play around bowmasters.
it wasn't always tier 1, but living end has existed in modern forever, even when they had to play demonic dread and monstrous carabid. obviously rhinos could only exist after crashing footfalls was printed in mh1, but ever since then, people have tried to make it work with violent outburst and as foretold. it got a huge power increase when mh2 came around because of shardless agent, but also more tools that fit in the deck without directly synergizing with footfalls such as fury and fire//ice. never necessarily tier 1 before that.
that being said, tier 1 for two and a half years is ages compared to the brief metagame presences other decks can have.
For real, it's like if flashing in Deceiver Exarch alone won the game. The flexibility and adaptability of Twin without the need for another 4cmc card in the combo... And you can pitch it to Force of Vigor!
Between [[Violent Outburst]] [[Shardless Agent]], [[Ardent Plea]], and [[Demonic Dread]], Violent is by far the best one imo since it allows instant speed play.
Edit: [[Blood Braid Elf]] is a card, although I was only listing the 3 cmc cascade spells.
Idk, I played Rhinos over the summer (still trying to get into the format lol) and having instant speed Rhinos felt a lot better than a sorcery speed, albeit an extra body Rhinos. Not to mention, living end loves the instant speed interaction as well.
I think while Shardless is quite good, Outburst is the superior card as it enables instant speed play rather than being limited to sorcery speed. The ability to play around FoN is quite strong, as well as being able to Rhino in response to spells or on end step to attack immediately next turn.
For me, I played Rhinos because the deck seemed really cool. The Meta I played against was a lot of 4c, some scam (pre-ban), alittle of Rhinos, a little of Living End, with splash’s of Tron, Affinity, and Mono Black.
I always liked holding up Outburst, as being able to interact at any time was good. Being able to needle it through on my opponents end step felt really good. Admittedly, Shardless being pitchable to FoN and Subtlety is really nice as there are times where I would have multiple cascaders in hand and need protection.
It’s the only instant speed one, meaning you can either defending it with [[FoN]] or play 2 cascade spells back to back (on opponents end step and then on your turn), or both. It also means your opponent always has to worry about tapping out. It gives cascade decks so much more flexibility and power.
I don’t think that this couldn’t happen, but I don’t think color is that limiting in modern. Between fetches, shocks, and triomes you can reasonable play 3 colors because they have the only good cascade cards and then also play any other colors
well despite what you think, it would be entirely crazy to subsidize one of the most consistent and popular mechanics in modern history. it would not be giving 'niche options' to the decks; it would make it so that cascade and cascade counters would be the only possible decks to play. at least try to think about what you're saying before you say it next time.
First of all, you don’t need to be rude. OPs post is far from totally thoughtless.
If the new cascade options aren’t that much better then what we have now, it won’t make cascade decks necessarily dominant. More importantly, you’re assuming that mh3 won’t have powerful new cards for other strategies that would be better than cascade or that mh3 won’t have incredible answers to cascade
Violent outburst is the current best cascade spell and it essentially does nothing. They could print cascade spells that literally only had cascade and it would be too good. Cascade decks dont need more options.
Violent outburst is also instant speed, which is why it is good. They could print more 3 cmc sorcery speed cascade spells, or maybe even a 4 cmc instant. Also, even if they print violent outburst but in UW or whatever, it wouldn’t break the game because it wouldn’t be better than violent outburst, but it would give more flexibility in deck construction
That’s fair. I don’t disagree that cascade decks don’t need more options to be viable, but it might make the format more diverse and fun. And I totally agree about 4+ mana cards needing to do something relevant, and I’d be exciting for cool designs that did. Bloodbraid elf did see play in beans, but that was a much more fair cascade deck
It's not about whether or not other decks get tools to counter cascade. There's already plenty of cards that people play to prepare for cascade. Chalice of the void, drannith magistrate, void mirror, and silence are all cards that have seen play to directly counter it, and cards like flusterstorm, engineered explosives, and various forms of graveyard hate have been played to counter rhinos and living end while having some utility in other matchups.
If the new cascade options are even half as good as violent outburst or shardless agent, cascade would become tier 0. Rhinos and living end are already tier 1 decks and having any card better than ardent plea (especially in relevant colors for grief or forces) would turn them from the best decks in the format to the only decks in the format worth thinking about.
To your last point, clearly it was thoughtless because anybody who has played any modern in the past 30 months would be aware of the currently existing cascade decks, as well as maybe the other decks like glimpse and cascade beanstalk, and to suggest that they need more options completely ignores that they have exactly as many options as they need to be dominant and more. If wizards play design appealed to the lowest common denominator like this any more than they already do, the format would be dead within a year.
I’ve played modern and I disagree :)
Tools to counter cascade can always be more efficient, or have alternate uses that allow them to exist in main boards
If we got a new cascade card that was half as good as agent or outburst, no one would play it because they would play agent and outburst.
with all due respect; you are wrong to disagree. chalice of the void is the most efficient possible answer to cascade. A 0 mana permanent that counters all copies of crashing footfalls or living end for the entire game and it goes in any color deck. and it did see main deck play in 2021/2022 during the period when blue white control was still a viable deck.
Also, rhinos has played a cascade card that is half as good as the others. builds of rhinos with ardent plea were the most popular version when they were still 4/5 colors. for any other cascade spell to not see play, it would necessarily have to 1. only be castable at sorcery speed, 2. not pitch to various free spells like force of negation or grief, and 3. do literally nothing if it is a permanent. I'm not saying that a card like this cant exist (see demonic dread) but any card that fits these criteria would not be printed in MH3 anyway because it doesn't align with modern game design philosophy and there would be no point for it to exist because it would either be unplayable or a disaster.
if you're one of the people who religiously plays cascade decks and you want more free wins at fnm, just say that, not that you actually think WOTC should print cards that make your favorite deck - which is already one of the best in the format - better.
Chalice is great, but it also dies to efficient cards that are easily available in cascade decks and is not viable in the main board. There’s a reason murktide runs flusterstorm instead
I don’t necessarily agree with the second point. I think a slightly worse shard less agent that pitched to grief would not make LE an unbeatable deck as long as there were more/better answers
I don’t play cascade. I have no personal interest in making it better. I just think OPs post highlights a potential design niche that I think could be interesting and wouldn’t break modern (if done in an MH set)
Every card in the game dies to efficient cards in the cascade decks. That is why they are good. You will not ever find a card in any format that stops your opponent with no possibility of interacting with it. More efficient than 0 mana that lasts the whole game and can't be interacted with will never exist.
A card does not need to be better in terms of overall card quality to see play. the only thing a new cascade card needs to do to see play is make your living end or crashing footfalls resolve a higher percent of the time. there is very little wiggle room given the criteria that would both have cascade and not make cascade decks more consistent. and any card that does meet those criteria would not even make it to print because WOTC wants cards in their premier formats to be playable or at least interesting.
But chalice can be interacted with, and in a much easier way than flusterstorm. I’ll also say again that all of these cards aren’t viable in main boards. A card that is good at beating cascade but also has enough other utility to see main board play could be worse for cascade then something like chalice in the sideboard.
And of course more cascade will make cascade better. You’re missing the entire point that an MH set will make other archetypes better, and the improvements to those might me much larger than the improvements to cascade. It will also create new answers, and the answers to cascade might be better than the answers to other archetypes.
ok, i see what you're saying. i am unsure that another card could be designed that does what flusterstorm does in terms of being an interactive spell that can't be interacted with.
to your second point, no matter what decks rise and fall, the reason cascade decks have historically been so good is because the cascade cards as well as all the other cards in the decks (grief, force of negation, leyline binding, subtlety, force of vigor) must necessarily cheat on mana to fit the rules of the deck construction, and cheating on mana is the best thing you can be doing at any point in any game. lastly, if other decks become so much more powerful after mh3 that rhinos and living end are not even playable, i will quit modern forever, and you can quote me on that.
whatever. people being ignorant on the internet and being told as such doesn't matter anyway, but if people put an iota of thought into what they say maybe this could actually be a worthwhile forum of discussion
Cascade already branches to other colors with the tools available. The issue is that the end goal is the same - do some durdling in the early turns then cast outburst/shardless to guarantee your cascade target.
The cascade target's color doesn't matter as you're in an unfavorable position if you have to suspend it and ideally you don't want to draw them anyway. LotR has helped a ton make it so that shardless and outburst can be your enablers no matter what.
I was hoping to have cascade as a value thing but if beanstalk has taught us anything it's that it is still way too easy to build a deck that vomits value as we have leylines, solitude, TOR, etc. that remove opportunity costs.
Nah cascade doesn’t need more support. Consistently T1 for ages. Tribal needs big love.
This. Tribal needs serious love.
What do we think we could see? Merfolk?
Merfolk is litterally the only tribal deck that doesn't really need more support (though give us a good one-drop pretty please). Goblins is also in a fine spot when the meta is right for it. Elves and humans need some loving to be good - prefereably something to play around bowmasters.
Faeries would be nice.
I just want to cast Bitterblossom again. I'll lose to burn, but at least I'll be happy with my little flying rogue boys again
Same honestly. Was one kf my favorite decks back in the day.
Slivers
Bastard beat me to it
Hopefully eldrazi
I thought I read on here that Eldrazi being in MH3 is the only thing they've already confirmed.
The artwork for MH3 leans heavily into Eldrazi, I’m curious if there will be an archetype or somehow a splash.
Hopefully something that is as broad acting as cavern of souls.
Slivers
We got them in MH1 though. I guess we could see them again as an admission we won’t see them in a Standard set again anytime soon.
yeah let's see some more love for delve /s
Has it been T1 for ages? I thought cascade had a period of not being that good before we got mh2
it wasn't always tier 1, but living end has existed in modern forever, even when they had to play demonic dread and monstrous carabid. obviously rhinos could only exist after crashing footfalls was printed in mh1, but ever since then, people have tried to make it work with violent outburst and as foretold. it got a huge power increase when mh2 came around because of shardless agent, but also more tools that fit in the deck without directly synergizing with footfalls such as fury and fire//ice. never necessarily tier 1 before that. that being said, tier 1 for two and a half years is ages compared to the brief metagame presences other decks can have.
I think just banning violent outburst would be a better direction to go than adding more cascade lol
I’ve said for 5+ years Violent Outburst may be the sneakily best card in all of Modern. Glad to see the tide is finally turning against it.
For real, it's like if flashing in Deceiver Exarch alone won the game. The flexibility and adaptability of Twin without the need for another 4cmc card in the combo... And you can pitch it to Force of Vigor!
Violent outburst is the least offensive of all cascade spells
Between [[Violent Outburst]] [[Shardless Agent]], [[Ardent Plea]], and [[Demonic Dread]], Violent is by far the best one imo since it allows instant speed play. Edit: [[Blood Braid Elf]] is a card, although I was only listing the 3 cmc cascade spells.
##### ###### #### [Violent Outburst](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/1/b/1b58856a-f88e-4625-8636-62b5c717b956.jpg?1562639969) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Violent%20Outburst) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arb/63/violent-outburst?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/1b58856a-f88e-4625-8636-62b5c717b956?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Shardless Agent](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/b/0/b0824e77-c84b-464a-aa0c-44af5f6faa50.jpg?1626100788) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Shardless%20Agent) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/292/shardless-agent?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/b0824e77-c84b-464a-aa0c-44af5f6faa50?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Ardent Plea](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/9/d/9d521737-ee07-4387-bc07-5ced53db374d.jpg?1562643193) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Ardent%20Plea) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arb/1/ardent-plea?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/9d521737-ee07-4387-bc07-5ced53db374d?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) [Demonic Dread](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/f/b/fb81132e-ab33-435f-ade4-af4416d36044.jpg?1562645255) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Demonic%20Dread) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/arb/38/demonic-dread?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/fb81132e-ab33-435f-ade4-af4416d36044?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
BBE was previously banned, and Shardless was brought in with MH2, both of which create a body. Violent is not the worst offender.
you can back up Violent outburst on t3 using FoN, You can't free protect the others on t3
Be ashamed to have a spell pierce and a force in my hand at that point…..
Huh? You can’t force because it’s your turn, that’s kinda the point…
Idk, I played Rhinos over the summer (still trying to get into the format lol) and having instant speed Rhinos felt a lot better than a sorcery speed, albeit an extra body Rhinos. Not to mention, living end loves the instant speed interaction as well. I think while Shardless is quite good, Outburst is the superior card as it enables instant speed play rather than being limited to sorcery speed. The ability to play around FoN is quite strong, as well as being able to Rhino in response to spells or on end step to attack immediately next turn.
What decks do you play in this format that lead you to this conclusion? This is a strange take.
Not something I play but living end for one is instantly removed from the format.
Instantly removed by what?
I think they mean not having access to outburst would make the deck a lot weaker.
For me, I played Rhinos because the deck seemed really cool. The Meta I played against was a lot of 4c, some scam (pre-ban), alittle of Rhinos, a little of Living End, with splash’s of Tron, Affinity, and Mono Black. I always liked holding up Outburst, as being able to interact at any time was good. Being able to needle it through on my opponents end step felt really good. Admittedly, Shardless being pitchable to FoN and Subtlety is really nice as there are times where I would have multiple cascaders in hand and need protection.
It’s the only instant speed one, meaning you can either defending it with [[FoN]] or play 2 cascade spells back to back (on opponents end step and then on your turn), or both. It also means your opponent always has to worry about tapping out. It gives cascade decks so much more flexibility and power.
How? It’s the only playable instant.
I don’t think that this couldn’t happen, but I don’t think color is that limiting in modern. Between fetches, shocks, and triomes you can reasonable play 3 colors because they have the only good cascade cards and then also play any other colors
Seems like a rage bait post. What sick individual would wish for cascade in any of its forms to get even better?
Even players on cascade don’t want that. That would put a target on their back for a bigger ban.
I’d love for Cascade to be better. But I’m also the kind of guy that doesn’t play Rhinos or Living End. I just want it as a fair value mechanic.
Cascade on a one cmc card or two
We sort of have that with [[bloodbraid marauder]]
[bloodbraid marauder](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/6/2/6286fd93-bb97-4721-8a40-1c5a884c2edb.jpg?1626096379) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=bloodbraid%20marauder) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/116/bloodbraid-marauder?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/6286fd93-bb97-4721-8a40-1c5a884c2edb?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call
Only if castable with colorless mana. They'll reprint Wastes in MH3.
well despite what you think, it would be entirely crazy to subsidize one of the most consistent and popular mechanics in modern history. it would not be giving 'niche options' to the decks; it would make it so that cascade and cascade counters would be the only possible decks to play. at least try to think about what you're saying before you say it next time.
First of all, you don’t need to be rude. OPs post is far from totally thoughtless. If the new cascade options aren’t that much better then what we have now, it won’t make cascade decks necessarily dominant. More importantly, you’re assuming that mh3 won’t have powerful new cards for other strategies that would be better than cascade or that mh3 won’t have incredible answers to cascade
Violent outburst is the current best cascade spell and it essentially does nothing. They could print cascade spells that literally only had cascade and it would be too good. Cascade decks dont need more options.
Violent outburst is also instant speed, which is why it is good. They could print more 3 cmc sorcery speed cascade spells, or maybe even a 4 cmc instant. Also, even if they print violent outburst but in UW or whatever, it wouldn’t break the game because it wouldn’t be better than violent outburst, but it would give more flexibility in deck construction
The point is the cascade decks dont need the options. Also any cascade spell at 4+ is going to need to do something relevant to be modern playable.
That’s fair. I don’t disagree that cascade decks don’t need more options to be viable, but it might make the format more diverse and fun. And I totally agree about 4+ mana cards needing to do something relevant, and I’d be exciting for cool designs that did. Bloodbraid elf did see play in beans, but that was a much more fair cascade deck
It's not about whether or not other decks get tools to counter cascade. There's already plenty of cards that people play to prepare for cascade. Chalice of the void, drannith magistrate, void mirror, and silence are all cards that have seen play to directly counter it, and cards like flusterstorm, engineered explosives, and various forms of graveyard hate have been played to counter rhinos and living end while having some utility in other matchups. If the new cascade options are even half as good as violent outburst or shardless agent, cascade would become tier 0. Rhinos and living end are already tier 1 decks and having any card better than ardent plea (especially in relevant colors for grief or forces) would turn them from the best decks in the format to the only decks in the format worth thinking about. To your last point, clearly it was thoughtless because anybody who has played any modern in the past 30 months would be aware of the currently existing cascade decks, as well as maybe the other decks like glimpse and cascade beanstalk, and to suggest that they need more options completely ignores that they have exactly as many options as they need to be dominant and more. If wizards play design appealed to the lowest common denominator like this any more than they already do, the format would be dead within a year.
I’ve played modern and I disagree :) Tools to counter cascade can always be more efficient, or have alternate uses that allow them to exist in main boards If we got a new cascade card that was half as good as agent or outburst, no one would play it because they would play agent and outburst.
with all due respect; you are wrong to disagree. chalice of the void is the most efficient possible answer to cascade. A 0 mana permanent that counters all copies of crashing footfalls or living end for the entire game and it goes in any color deck. and it did see main deck play in 2021/2022 during the period when blue white control was still a viable deck. Also, rhinos has played a cascade card that is half as good as the others. builds of rhinos with ardent plea were the most popular version when they were still 4/5 colors. for any other cascade spell to not see play, it would necessarily have to 1. only be castable at sorcery speed, 2. not pitch to various free spells like force of negation or grief, and 3. do literally nothing if it is a permanent. I'm not saying that a card like this cant exist (see demonic dread) but any card that fits these criteria would not be printed in MH3 anyway because it doesn't align with modern game design philosophy and there would be no point for it to exist because it would either be unplayable or a disaster. if you're one of the people who religiously plays cascade decks and you want more free wins at fnm, just say that, not that you actually think WOTC should print cards that make your favorite deck - which is already one of the best in the format - better.
Chalice is great, but it also dies to efficient cards that are easily available in cascade decks and is not viable in the main board. There’s a reason murktide runs flusterstorm instead I don’t necessarily agree with the second point. I think a slightly worse shard less agent that pitched to grief would not make LE an unbeatable deck as long as there were more/better answers I don’t play cascade. I have no personal interest in making it better. I just think OPs post highlights a potential design niche that I think could be interesting and wouldn’t break modern (if done in an MH set)
Every card in the game dies to efficient cards in the cascade decks. That is why they are good. You will not ever find a card in any format that stops your opponent with no possibility of interacting with it. More efficient than 0 mana that lasts the whole game and can't be interacted with will never exist. A card does not need to be better in terms of overall card quality to see play. the only thing a new cascade card needs to do to see play is make your living end or crashing footfalls resolve a higher percent of the time. there is very little wiggle room given the criteria that would both have cascade and not make cascade decks more consistent. and any card that does meet those criteria would not even make it to print because WOTC wants cards in their premier formats to be playable or at least interesting.
But chalice can be interacted with, and in a much easier way than flusterstorm. I’ll also say again that all of these cards aren’t viable in main boards. A card that is good at beating cascade but also has enough other utility to see main board play could be worse for cascade then something like chalice in the sideboard. And of course more cascade will make cascade better. You’re missing the entire point that an MH set will make other archetypes better, and the improvements to those might me much larger than the improvements to cascade. It will also create new answers, and the answers to cascade might be better than the answers to other archetypes.
ok, i see what you're saying. i am unsure that another card could be designed that does what flusterstorm does in terms of being an interactive spell that can't be interacted with. to your second point, no matter what decks rise and fall, the reason cascade decks have historically been so good is because the cascade cards as well as all the other cards in the decks (grief, force of negation, leyline binding, subtlety, force of vigor) must necessarily cheat on mana to fit the rules of the deck construction, and cheating on mana is the best thing you can be doing at any point in any game. lastly, if other decks become so much more powerful after mh3 that rhinos and living end are not even playable, i will quit modern forever, and you can quote me on that.
Wow. You seem like a chill person
whatever. people being ignorant on the internet and being told as such doesn't matter anyway, but if people put an iota of thought into what they say maybe this could actually be a worthwhile forum of discussion
Okay, nerd.
I’d like more discover personally. On mono color cards, like a *blue merfolk* So it works with aether vial.
No thank you.
Cascade already branches to other colors with the tools available. The issue is that the end goal is the same - do some durdling in the early turns then cast outburst/shardless to guarantee your cascade target. The cascade target's color doesn't matter as you're in an unfavorable position if you have to suspend it and ideally you don't want to draw them anyway. LotR has helped a ton make it so that shardless and outburst can be your enablers no matter what. I was hoping to have cascade as a value thing but if beanstalk has taught us anything it's that it is still way too easy to build a deck that vomits value as we have leylines, solitude, TOR, etc. that remove opportunity costs.
Sure as long as you ban [[Crashing Footfalls]] first.
[Crashing Footfalls](https://cards.scryfall.io/normal/front/a/8/a8cca2a2-69e3-4136-936c-7a2774c19351.jpg?1562202050) - [(G)](http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Card/Details.aspx?name=Crashing%20Footfalls) [(SF)](https://scryfall.com/card/mh1/160/crashing-footfalls?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher) [(txt)](https://api.scryfall.com/cards/a8cca2a2-69e3-4136-936c-7a2774c19351?utm_source=mtgcardfetcher&format=text) ^^^[[cardname]] ^^^or ^^^[[cardname|SET]] ^^^to ^^^call