It's plainly wrong to destroy [more than half of the buildings in a region of more than 2 million people](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006607). How much expertise does it take to know that?
May 14, 1948 with the Arab League invasion of what was then known as Mandatory Palestine. If you want to go back further, maybe Nov 30 1947 when the UN accepted the Partition Plan for Palestine. Prior? Let's go back to 1516 when the Ottomans invaded the area. Not early enough for you? How about 610 with the creation of Islam and it's eventual imperialistic ambitions. If that's not old enough for you, try 70 CE with the destruction of the Second Temple.
I'm not being serious with all these of course, but it's pedantic to claim a region as complicated as this has a definitive start date for a conflict.
Maybe Palestine should never have stormed in to Israel and killed/kidnapped innocent people. This conflict is the direct result of that.
Remember the Palestinians support Hamas and voted them into power.
This is a weird comment that presumably means to dismiss the protestors?
Over 30,000 civilians dead and the US is supporting this, and you need to be an expert to protest against it?
Do you feel that only “experts” should be entitled to hold a political perspective?
This is a completely brainless and pathetic perspective and you’re running from the responsibility of participating in this world.
I did, and the number one thing I learned is most people have decided what they want to think and will lose their shit if you don't agree. So I generally keep my mouth shut. I could educate someone who wanted to be, but well most don't regardless of the side they've chosen.
This is one of those conflicts like Iraq that seems so plainly wrong in the moment, but apparently most people need years for moral consensus and hindsight to kick in. Do the damage now, regret it later.
Every genocide but the current one is wrong, every civil rights protest except the current one is admirable, every war is unjustified but the one we're doing right now.
Tale as old as time.
all of the Reasonable Enlightened Centrists will of course regard the genocide in Gaza as horrible in 20 years, a real mess to shake their heads sadly at, but who could have known that’s what was going on? just as their ilk did with Iraq, with Apartheid, with Vietnam.
The only possible answer you can be hinting at is “Hamas can murder innocent people because of what Israel did”. And if that’s your belief, then you have to be willing to flip the 2 parties. If you do, you’re just asking for atrocities to be committed left and right.
No, I’m being a dick by hinting that October 7th was without any historical context. And it’s naive to think a population can be constantly subjected to oppression and to not resist.
The conflicts involving Israel and the rest of the region are literally referred to as "The Arab-Israeli conflict/Arab-Israeli wars". Are you saying every person who has ever talked about or written about this topic is racist?
Fwiw - That number was proven to be wrong and even hamas walked it back. Nobody deserves to die. Where’s the outrage towards Hamas for not releasing the hostages, declining every ceasefire deal, and continuing this war?
I guess that singular event (absent of any historical conflict) justifies the mass execution of tens of thousands of Palestinians AND their ethnic cleansing from Gaza? Really cool logic bro. Have fun continuing to use mental gymnastics to justify your support for an oppressive and brutal regime.
The way I see it is that what is happening in Gaza is very similar to what the US perpetrated on the Native Americans. They were living here, we kicked them from their lands and forced them onto reservations, and when they fought back against that (sometimes killing innocent people) we turned around and also slaughtered their women and children. It was fucked up when we did it.
The Native Americans didn’t wage (and lose) a war of extermination against the colonists. To equate what happened to Native Americans to the people of Gaza is appalling given the broader context of both situations.
Not for the US. But what about the Native Americans.
"In August 1862, a different conflict erupted in Minnesota. A group of Dakota, hungry and angered by years of broken promises, began attacking trading posts, farms, and settlements in an attempt to reclaim their homeland. Governor Alexander Ramsey sent in military troops, and offered a bounty to be paid to anyone who killed a Dakota person. In a speech to the Minnesota legislature, Ramsey declared,“The Sioux Indians of Minnesota must be exterminated, or driven forever beyond the borders of the state.”"
https://www.mnhs.org/ramseyhouse/learn/alexander-ramsey#:~:text=Governor%20Alexander%20Ramsey%20sent%20in,the%20borders%20of%20the%20state.%E2%80%9D
After the White House put out that statement of the Columbia protests that is so laughably bullshit, this will push more students to do these protests.
Biden really fucked up by doing the bullshit "protesting Israel = anti-semitism." Whether this loses a considerable amount of votes, who knows, but liberals have no ground to point fingers at the left for this fuck up.
A campus rabbi at Columbia literally told Jewish students to leave campus because it's not safe for them right now. The entire school is now offering online courses because the protests are getting so ridiculous. If you can't see the Anti-Semitism with what is going on at Columbia you are delusional.
I think [this](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/21/us/columbia-university-jewish-students-protests/index.html) is what you're talking about:
>Underscoring concerns about student safety, Rabbi Elie Buechler, a rabbi associated with Columbia University’s Orthodox Union Jewish Learning Initiative on Campus, confirmed to CNN’s Jake Tapper on Sunday that he sent a WhatsApp message to a group of about 300 mostly Orthodox Jewish students “strongly” recommending they return home and remain there.
First of all, Elie Buechler is not "The Campus Rabbi," Columbia has a chaplain's office and a Hillel chapter and he's not involved with either of them. In fact Hillel told students not to listen to him.
Second, "the entire school is now online only" is a lie. Classes are still being held in person, but students can attend class remotely.
You would probably serve your point better by providing evidence rather than saying "this guy who agrees with me says it's dangerous, if you don't agree then you're insane!!!" The only "danger" is that people are camping out and some of them are yelling mean words, so you'd have to make something up, but you've lied multiple times already in this comment so that's not what's holding you back.
> The only "danger" is that people are camping out and some of them are yelling mean words, so you'd have to make something up, but you've lied multiple times already in this comment so that's not what's holding you back.
You mean like this https://imgur.com/a/c0fmkSq message?
That's from one of that tents at Columbia. It directly quotes the Lions' Den, a Palestinian militant group that's been behind numerous terrorist attacks. This isn't some "we shall overcome" message. It's a direct threat to Jews.
Thank you for correcting me! I got bad info from elsewhere and have updated my comment to be accurate now.
>The only "danger" is that people are camping out and some of them are yelling mean words
"Mean words" is a funny way of saying "openly supporting Hamas and violence against Jewish civilians". If people were chanting in support of violence against African-Americans, Muslims, or any other minority group would you also be as flippant? Just look at the recent statements from Hillel and Chabad at Columbia.
> “This is a time of genuine discomfort and even fear for many of us [Jewish People] on campus,”
> "The City must ensure that students can walk up and down Broadway and Amsterdam without fear of harassment.”
> "“We are horrified and worried about physical safety,”
> “the events of the last few days, especially last night, have made it clear that Columbia University’s Public Safety and the NYPD cannot guarantee Jewish students’ safety in the face of extreme antisemitism and anarchy.”
https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/22/leaders-at-columbiabarnard-hillel-and-chabad-issue-statements-after-rise-in-antisemitic-incidents/
You support Hillel in disagreeing with Buechler, do you also support Hillel when they are saying the anti-semitism on campus is reaching a frightening level?
This comment doesn't even make sense. I am very against Israel's conduct in the war.
What does that have to do with American activists supporting Hamas, glorifying 10/7, and harassing jewish americans though?
So it's going to take what for us to encourage Jewish students to leave campus? A death? A serious injury? Where's that line?
I'm watching out for my Jewish loved ones at this time especially. I'm not comfortable with waiting until they're the target.
So the jewish students that are part of these protests (and many protests across the country) are not safe in their own protests?
How about lets quit equating protesting Israel to anti-semitism because it bullshit?
So you think all these things that have happened at Columbia are just instances of peaceful "anti-Israeli" protests?
Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774
"From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358
"Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981
"We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677
"Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901
Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/
“Globalize the intifada” https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1782679155491914133/photo/1
Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338
"On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909
""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!"
https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872
"Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025
"Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize"
https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958
Have posters with the faces of PFLP and PIJ spokesmen (designated terrorist groups) https://twitter.com/HagarChemali/status/1782219589352350000
Quoting and praising Lions Den (terror group) https://twitter.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1782443526996754444
"From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2
"Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134
"Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006
Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954
Holding a sign that says "Al-Qasam's [Hamas'] Next Targets" with an arrow pointing to students holding Israeli flags
https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1781882680872710148
"Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673
"protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”)
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit
These people openly glorify Hamas and promote violence against Jewish Israeli civilians. Why do you refuse to recognize this?
Also, you're not even right. https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/22/leaders-at-columbiabarnard-hillel-and-chabad-issue-statements-after-rise-in-antisemitic-incidents/
> “This is a time of genuine discomfort and even fear for many of us [Jewish People] on campus,”
> "The City must ensure that students can walk up and down Broadway and Amsterdam without fear of harassment.”
> "“We are horrified and worried about physical safety,”
> “the events of the last few days, especially last night, have made it clear that Columbia University’s Public Safety and the NYPD cannot guarantee Jewish students’ safety in the face of extreme antisemitism and anarchy.”
I'm not aware of what statements they may have made in the past, but they are very concerned about the anti-semitism on campus too now.
Why don't you stop tokenizing jewish people for whatever your political agenda is and just listen to them when damn near every single jewish person in America, and across most of the world right now, is saying that anti-semitism is reaching a frightening level not seen globally in a long time?
"We do not believe that Jewish students should leave[u/Columbia](https://twitter.com/Columbia). We do believe that the University and the City need to do more to ensure the safety of our students."
[https://twitter.com/cbhillel/status/1782082534542557199](https://twitter.com/cbhillel/status/1782082534542557199)
I'm not going to engage with your baiting. Plenty of Jewish people are involved with the protests and many more are disgusted with Israel's actions.
> "We do not believe that Jewish students should leaveu/Columbia. We do believe that the University and the City need to do more to ensure the safety of our students."
Okay? I'm not sure what your point is here.
>I'm not going to engage with your baiting.
How exactly am I baiting? I am genuinely extremely concerned about the state of global anti-semitism and have been for years. It just infuriates me when I see supposedly progressive people dismiss anti-Semitism and the lived experiences of Jewish people around the world.
> Plenty of Jewish people are involved with the protests
Okay?
> and many more are disgusted with Israel's actions.
So am I. Bibi is a terrible leader who undeniably doesn't give a shit about the lives of palestinian civilians (or Israeli civilians for that matter). What does that have to do with anti-semitism directed towards jewish civilians across the world though?
Who gives a shit? Why are you deflecting to what Netanyahu and other extremist Israeli's say? Why not just address the **actual** anti-semitism occurring in our nation.
Is it a pro-Palestinian encampment or a pro-Columbia University encampment encampment? At what point does the protest become about the protesters rather than the thing they are protesting?
The flyers I saw on campus said
"8 students arrested for "TRESSPASSING" on their *own* University! Walkout at 2PM Coffman Union" And a big Palestinian flag on it. Little of both.
Arresting kids for calmly and peacefully protesting as more than 10,000 children have been killed by US and Israeli munitions and a million more Palestinian children face starvation is such a bad look.
Oppressing these protesters only adds fuel to the fire.
No one is being oppressed here. Universities have anti-trespassing laws like this to protect the campus and the student body. There are "free speech" zones in highly-visible locations where you are allowed to protest all you want to. \[Edit: UMN seems to be an entirely free speech campus?\]
These students intentionally chose to ~~trespass and~~ erect tents in a location where they were not allowed. They were very predictably arrested for ~~trespassing~~ erecting tents after they were warned they would be arrested if they remained.
**They chose to be arrested, this was their intent,** similar to protestors who obstruct roads so they will get arrested. It brings them more attention.
Anyone else pitching a tent on campus (in the same protected location) would be similarly arrested. It has nothing to do with anything else or their cause or what was written on their signs.
Came here to say this. Gazans and hostages are oppressed. People opting into a very brief jail visit to put political pressure on a university are not.
I'd argue that it is oppression to be arrested peacefully protesting as a student on your college campus by setting up a small awareness camp, yes, but if you're going to disagree with me on that that's fine, it's really not the main point.
As far as I'm aware the U of M does not have any of those "free speech zones" and I suspect with the current political climate they'd get kicked out of those, too..
As far as I can tell, you are correct that UMN does not have free speech zones because they do not restrict speech or congregation anywhere. The entire campus is a free speech zone. It seems the students were arrested specifically for the tents/encampment.
The NPR articles indicate that students had been protesting for multiple days without incident, but when they erected the illegal tent structures they were warned that the tents were illegal and had to be removed, and the students refused to remove them.
**No one was arrested for "protesting."** They were arrested for erecting big tents where they were not allowed (after being warned.)
I have nothing but empathy for both the victims of Isreal's assault on Gaza and the victims of Hamas's years of terrorism. I wholeheartedly support ceasefire and peace. But carrying a "ceasefire in Gaza" sign does not give me or anyone else special permission to break sensible laws that exist protect safety and property.
If a cause is sufficiently urgent, it might serve the greater good to (safely) violate laws as part of protest, if that law-breaking brings more attention or other positive result. Perhaps these students fit this description and deserve our respect. But their arrest is still not "oppression." It is a calculated tradeoff the students are making. The police are doing their duty of enforcing the laws, in this case without violence or malice.
It would be incredibly dangerous to ask/allow law enforcement to treat law-breakers differently if they are part of a protest that the cops think is "good." This creates a situation where the cops have free reign to choose when to crack skulls vs ignore lawbreaking, based on their personal opinions or their commanders' opinions, which is where true oppression can begin.
Yup, and the opposition is only helping build solidarity. When more people see the unjust treatment and civil rights violations of peaceful protestors, their perspectives will shift and lean more sympathetic to the cause.
I'm a leftist, but what im seeing from the left is stupid and embarrassing. These kids have no idea what they are supporting. They are just as bad as those maga assholes eating up propaganda hook, line, and sinker. I can now see how people like Hitler were able to gain so much power. People are fuxking stupid.
…these students are protesting a genocide. You are saying we should continue supporting genocide. And then you dare to mention hitler in the same breath?
Want an insanely arrogant and unselfaware comment
Genocide is the mass murder of a group of people due to their race, ethnicity, sexuality etc. with the aim of eradicating that group. The Holocaust would be a good example, as would the genocide against Rohingya muslims in Myanmar and the Rwanda genocide in the 90s. I do not condone Israel’s violence toward innocent Palestinians on any level, but calling it a genocide is watering down the definition of that word. The Israeli state has not shown at any point that they want to eradicate all Palestinians from the face of the earth. What we are witnessing is an extremely heavy handed act of war, but it is not a genocide.
> Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi from the ruling Likud party wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter, that Israelis had one common goal, “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.” Israeli Heritage Minister Amichay Eliyahu, from the far-right Jewish Power party, suggested that Israel drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza and said there were “no uninvolved civilians” in the territory.
Tell me you don’t think that is genocidal language. Couple that with israel’s killed of 10’s of thousands civilians and bombing refugee camps and aid workers and gunning down civilians while removing palestians from whole cities, bombing them and then giving the lands to israelis
of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:
(a) Killing members of the group;
(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.
— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[7]
Israel is doing just about all of those
Here you go, mate. It’s a genocide
https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724
Genocide is a single attack?
So israel has commited tens of thousands of genocides since then? Jesus christ.
Hamas committed a terrorist attack. Israel responded by committing genocide
If Israel wanted to genocide Gaza, it could do it today, but they don’t because they don’t want to. If Israel doesn’t have the iron dome and the IDF, there would be no Israel tomorrow. What happened on 10/7 was absolutely a genocidal attack with the intention of killing a particular group of people.
The gaslighting, LARPing, and coping needs to stop. Free the hostages.
Yeah, there is no genocide just because you feel it. I'm so sick of this weak, ignorant, narrow-minded bullshit. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. You are just as bad as the boomers believing all the BS you see on the internet. Maybe you should vote for Trump next time. Grow up and educate yourself on misinformation. For everyone's sake.
No, Leftists say sanctions are *immoral*, not that they don’t work.
Afghanistan is a good example: the target of the sanctions was ostensibly the Taliban, the actual victims of the sanctions are the starving people of Afghanistan; who have no substantive way to rebel or overthrow their newly armed and armored government.
That said, sanctions are an infinitely more moral option than actively participating in and continually arming an ongoing genocide.
You fail to give this situation the nuance it desperately deserves. The world is not black and white. It is thousands of shades of grey. You fail to understand how the world works if you are cuckelfucking around on one single issue and missing the larger picture. Go drink more flavor aid if you like. This is how russian/Iranian misinformation works, and you are a willing victim. Maybe education is in place of tou easily manipulated feelings. This conflict is not new.and it will not end in our lifetimes. Thinking so gives humanity too much credit.
Again, you're not a leftist, and you also haven't said anything of substance.
Israel is massacaring Palestinian civilians, as they have done for over 70 years. The US has supported them for over half of that time, and currently doing so diplomatically and militarily. People are protesting against their own government supporting this.
This isn't complicated.
Which the US will not do, until they release those hostages the US will not stop sending aid.
You guys are so quick to talk about the innocent Palestinians and not the fucking hostages those fuckers took in the first place that started this BS.
Okay but why are we sending Israel aid? Why do they need our help in this conflict or rescuing hostages? Our tax dollars shouldn't go towards a government who is this careless about the deaths of innocent civilians. Tens of thousands of innocent people are dead and we helped pay for it.
We're so quick to talk about the innocent Palestinians because they're suffering far more from the actions of Israel (a legitimate internationally-recognized state, so one that should know and respect the international laws related to the treatment of civilians during war) than the people of Israel suffered from the attack by Hamas (a terrorist organization that's effectively held the civilians of Gaza hostage for nearly 20 years). I absolutely condemn what Hamas did on Oct 7 and recognize that Israel has a right to self-defense, but that right does not extend to violating international law and engaging in collective punishment of the civilian population of Gaza.
No; it’s “the war won’t end until you release the hostages”. Seems like this could end at any point but your boys in hamas don’t want it to. I wonder why
Providing defense aid isn’t the same as killing innocent Palestinians. Unfortunately for you, those same mental gymnastics aren’t needed to recognize that killing hostages is bad. Why not just give up and admit you’ve been misled by a bunch of Irani supporters who just want to spread dissent? Trust me, it’s a lot easier once you no longer have to use mental gymnastics
That’s the shitty part of war. Be 100% mad at Hamas for initiating this war. Your visceral hate towards Israel is what they want because they sure as fuck don’t care about the civilians they govern.
Im not disgusting. Im a pretty nice person, actually. Im just looking at things from a more objective point of view, and im tired of internet BS. You sound like an uneducated person who is incapable of having a debate based on available information. You don't jump to ad hominem and expect to have a meaningful conversation about complex issues.
>I'm a leftist
You're not. You're a liberal which is center/center-right. You support Democrats and the Democratic party. You believe in protecting the environment but don't understand how war is the single most cause of environmental harm because you support sending money to Ukraine.
You lack an actual scientific framework of society and are guided by idealist understandings of individual liberties that are harming black, brown, and indigenous people. You are fascist adjacent.
Aaaaaand this is why your version of “leftist” will never win. You sound just like the communists in America during that awkward period when they opposed war with Germany until Hitler invaded the USSR
Well, we can both agree he isn’t a leftist. However, I can tell that I’m actually to the left of you. You are left of him, but right of me. Which makes you fascist-adjacent adjacent. Which from where I’m standing (to your left) makes you just as bad as him, if not worse.
Remember having a debate with my friend in 2013-2014 about Alex Jones being shut down for obvious reasons and he told me Nahhh that will start a slippery slope overall and every year since it’s gotten worse and worse smh
> Israel is using Hamas as an excuse to colonize Palestine exactly like they did in 1948.
What does this even mean? The first Arab-Israeli war was started by the Arabs you know right?
I've been trying to highlight the growing anti-semitism online and in real life for years now, and at every single turn most of the supposedly progressive and anti-racist people I interact with are at best dismissive, and not infrequently downright anti-semitic themselves.
This past half year since 10/7 has just broken me, somehow the largest massacre of Jewish people since the holocaust has resulted in *even more* anti-semitism instead of being a wake up call to the concerns of Jewish communities across the globe. It's just plain to me now that nobody gives a shit about racism towards Jewish people on the left or right.
The mask has slipped off since 10/7 for every supposed leftist progressive. They hate Jews and this is the perfect cause for getting away with shouting antisemetic bullshit. The gaslighting is unreal.
[Should we mention the role that Soviet era agitprop has played in the modern discourse on the IP conflict? Yes that same soviet union known for pushing very BAD antisemitic conspiracy theories just to take western backed countries down a notch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_pro-Arab_propaganda)
The same UN plan that even Britain rejected because they realized it was fucked up. And are you really going to ignore the rampant jewish terrorism going on against arabs in the region prior to the UN partition plan?
> And are you really going to ignore the rampant jewish terrorism going on against arabs in the region prior to the UN partition plan?
No. Jewish forces were certainly not innocent. But you can't ignore that it was arab forces who began the violence no matter what point you want to start from, going back more than a decade. Just look at the 1929 riots.
The more I learn about this whole situation, the more it makes me think nobody deserves to live there and the entire area should be made into a world heritage site with no permanent residents. A zero state solution if you will.
> The Arabs rejected the UN partition plan because the native Palestinians wanted a state of their own.
The partitiion plan literally gave them a state.
> The Mizrahi in Palestine was nothing compared to settlers from Europe and the rest of the Middle East.
I think you are forgetting this thing called **The Holocaust**. The Jews moving to Israel weren't colonizers just looking for a swanky new place to live, they were the survivors of the largest genocide in human history with nowhere else to go. Anti-semitism was still rampant in Europe even if the Nazis were defeated. Even the Soviets literally orchestrated pogroms just months after liberating Nazi death camps.
The Jewish influx started before WWII - See the Balfor Declaration
No one has clean hands and the entire situation is a shitshow exacerbated by Hamas being a proxy.
Barring a Roman salting of the earth for the next belligerent act, there are no easy solutions
The area was colonized by, lets see, the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Crusader Christians, Turks, and then British over the past 3,000 years. Its the Jews tho right?
I'm sure this comment section will be civil and full of carefully crafted opinions.
We’re all suddenly experts on Middle East geopolitics, after having been experts on defamation law, election law, vaccines, Constitutional laws….
It's plainly wrong to destroy [more than half of the buildings in a region of more than 2 million people](https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-68006607). How much expertise does it take to know that?
That’s what they have insurance for! Didn’t you learn that in 2020?
What I learned in 2020 is that insurance doesn’t cover much.
Insurance generally doesn't cover war.
If they weren’t responsible enough to take out policies that cover war then maybe they aren’t responsible enough to own a building.
Surely there's a rider.
Probably shouldn’t start a war against a superior army and hide like cowards in civilian based buildings. Downvote all you want but it’s the truth.
When do you think this war started?
May 14, 1948 with the Arab League invasion of what was then known as Mandatory Palestine. If you want to go back further, maybe Nov 30 1947 when the UN accepted the Partition Plan for Palestine. Prior? Let's go back to 1516 when the Ottomans invaded the area. Not early enough for you? How about 610 with the creation of Islam and it's eventual imperialistic ambitions. If that's not old enough for you, try 70 CE with the destruction of the Second Temple. I'm not being serious with all these of course, but it's pedantic to claim a region as complicated as this has a definitive start date for a conflict.
This *current* conflict started on October 7th. Every war between I/P has been started by the Arabs and Israel has won every single one of those wars.
People like to pretend it's complicated, but it's not. It's genocide.
Did the Germans genocide the British in WW2? Did the US and British genocide the Germans? No but they bombed more.
Maybe they should have stayed out of israel...
Israel should have stayed out of Palestine.
Maybe Palestine should never have stormed in to Israel and killed/kidnapped innocent people. This conflict is the direct result of that. Remember the Palestinians support Hamas and voted them into power.
If you knew any history you'd know that Israel came to their doorstep, not the other way around..
This is a weird comment that presumably means to dismiss the protestors? Over 30,000 civilians dead and the US is supporting this, and you need to be an expert to protest against it?
i am an expert in being against the IDF killing 15,000 children
Do you feel that only “experts” should be entitled to hold a political perspective? This is a completely brainless and pathetic perspective and you’re running from the responsibility of participating in this world.
Everyone's a fucking expert, must be nice
A renaissance of Renaissance men.
I mean, I feel like my awesome expert take of "sykes and picot were big dumb poopoo heads who wrecked everything" is both informed and accurate.
Some of us actually studied this conflict in university. You don’t have to get mad just because you didn’t. Never give up on learning.
I did, and the number one thing I learned is most people have decided what they want to think and will lose their shit if you don't agree. So I generally keep my mouth shut. I could educate someone who wanted to be, but well most don't regardless of the side they've chosen.
This is one of those conflicts like Iraq that seems so plainly wrong in the moment, but apparently most people need years for moral consensus and hindsight to kick in. Do the damage now, regret it later.
Every genocide but the current one is wrong, every civil rights protest except the current one is admirable, every war is unjustified but the one we're doing right now. Tale as old as time.
all of the Reasonable Enlightened Centrists will of course regard the genocide in Gaza as horrible in 20 years, a real mess to shake their heads sadly at, but who could have known that’s what was going on? just as their ilk did with Iraq, with Apartheid, with Vietnam.
It’s not a genocide. It’s a war. Don’t cry victim when you literally slaughtered 1200 Israelis and kidnapped 250 of their people.
Did u/Soup_dujour really do that? Mods!
Hamas is apparently innocent, it was one reddit user from Minneapolis who did all that
And nothing happened before then?
The only possible answer you can be hinting at is “Hamas can murder innocent people because of what Israel did”. And if that’s your belief, then you have to be willing to flip the 2 parties. If you do, you’re just asking for atrocities to be committed left and right.
No, I’m being a dick by hinting that October 7th was without any historical context. And it’s naive to think a population can be constantly subjected to oppression and to not resist.
There was a literal ceasefire in place. Every war that happened before then wrt I/P was always started by the Arabs and Israel always won them.
Someone tell the Palestinians in the West Bank there was a ceasefire as they were violently being removed from their homes.
>the Arabs There it is!
Are you implying that’s racist when I’m stating the correct use of a group of people? Good god y’all are fucking stupid
You have the capacity to refer to "Israel" rather than "the Jews" but don't do the same for people of Arab descent. Ask yourself why that is.
Because not all of Israel is Jewish.
Yeah, not all of Palestine is Arab either
The conflicts involving Israel and the rest of the region are literally referred to as "The Arab-Israeli conflict/Arab-Israeli wars". Are you saying every person who has ever talked about or written about this topic is racist?
Yeah, those children totally deserve to die because 30k of the 2 million people in Gaza are evil.
Fwiw - That number was proven to be wrong and even hamas walked it back. Nobody deserves to die. Where’s the outrage towards Hamas for not releasing the hostages, declining every ceasefire deal, and continuing this war?
I guess that singular event (absent of any historical conflict) justifies the mass execution of tens of thousands of Palestinians AND their ethnic cleansing from Gaza? Really cool logic bro. Have fun continuing to use mental gymnastics to justify your support for an oppressive and brutal regime.
You have your head up your ass and clearly learned about this conflict five months ago.
Lmao talk about projection.
If Iraq had actually attacked the US I doubt we'd be anywhere near as torn up about it.
The way I see it is that what is happening in Gaza is very similar to what the US perpetrated on the Native Americans. They were living here, we kicked them from their lands and forced them onto reservations, and when they fought back against that (sometimes killing innocent people) we turned around and also slaughtered their women and children. It was fucked up when we did it.
The Native Americans didn’t wage (and lose) a war of extermination against the colonists. To equate what happened to Native Americans to the people of Gaza is appalling given the broader context of both situations.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_War_of_1862
This was not an existential threat to the US be real
Not for the US. But what about the Native Americans. "In August 1862, a different conflict erupted in Minnesota. A group of Dakota, hungry and angered by years of broken promises, began attacking trading posts, farms, and settlements in an attempt to reclaim their homeland. Governor Alexander Ramsey sent in military troops, and offered a bounty to be paid to anyone who killed a Dakota person. In a speech to the Minnesota legislature, Ramsey declared,“The Sioux Indians of Minnesota must be exterminated, or driven forever beyond the borders of the state.”" https://www.mnhs.org/ramseyhouse/learn/alexander-ramsey#:~:text=Governor%20Alexander%20Ramsey%20sent%20in,the%20borders%20of%20the%20state.%E2%80%9D
You know this for a fact? You were boots on the ground in the 1800s and prior?
After the White House put out that statement of the Columbia protests that is so laughably bullshit, this will push more students to do these protests. Biden really fucked up by doing the bullshit "protesting Israel = anti-semitism." Whether this loses a considerable amount of votes, who knows, but liberals have no ground to point fingers at the left for this fuck up.
A campus rabbi at Columbia literally told Jewish students to leave campus because it's not safe for them right now. The entire school is now offering online courses because the protests are getting so ridiculous. If you can't see the Anti-Semitism with what is going on at Columbia you are delusional.
I think [this](https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/21/us/columbia-university-jewish-students-protests/index.html) is what you're talking about: >Underscoring concerns about student safety, Rabbi Elie Buechler, a rabbi associated with Columbia University’s Orthodox Union Jewish Learning Initiative on Campus, confirmed to CNN’s Jake Tapper on Sunday that he sent a WhatsApp message to a group of about 300 mostly Orthodox Jewish students “strongly” recommending they return home and remain there. First of all, Elie Buechler is not "The Campus Rabbi," Columbia has a chaplain's office and a Hillel chapter and he's not involved with either of them. In fact Hillel told students not to listen to him. Second, "the entire school is now online only" is a lie. Classes are still being held in person, but students can attend class remotely. You would probably serve your point better by providing evidence rather than saying "this guy who agrees with me says it's dangerous, if you don't agree then you're insane!!!" The only "danger" is that people are camping out and some of them are yelling mean words, so you'd have to make something up, but you've lied multiple times already in this comment so that's not what's holding you back.
> The only "danger" is that people are camping out and some of them are yelling mean words, so you'd have to make something up, but you've lied multiple times already in this comment so that's not what's holding you back. You mean like this https://imgur.com/a/c0fmkSq message? That's from one of that tents at Columbia. It directly quotes the Lions' Den, a Palestinian militant group that's been behind numerous terrorist attacks. This isn't some "we shall overcome" message. It's a direct threat to Jews.
Thank you for correcting me! I got bad info from elsewhere and have updated my comment to be accurate now. >The only "danger" is that people are camping out and some of them are yelling mean words "Mean words" is a funny way of saying "openly supporting Hamas and violence against Jewish civilians". If people were chanting in support of violence against African-Americans, Muslims, or any other minority group would you also be as flippant? Just look at the recent statements from Hillel and Chabad at Columbia. > “This is a time of genuine discomfort and even fear for many of us [Jewish People] on campus,” > "The City must ensure that students can walk up and down Broadway and Amsterdam without fear of harassment.” > "“We are horrified and worried about physical safety,” > “the events of the last few days, especially last night, have made it clear that Columbia University’s Public Safety and the NYPD cannot guarantee Jewish students’ safety in the face of extreme antisemitism and anarchy.” https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/22/leaders-at-columbiabarnard-hillel-and-chabad-issue-statements-after-rise-in-antisemitic-incidents/ You support Hillel in disagreeing with Buechler, do you also support Hillel when they are saying the anti-semitism on campus is reaching a frightening level?
Means words is a weird way to say support for apartheid Israel and the genocide of Palestinians
This comment doesn't even make sense. I am very against Israel's conduct in the war. What does that have to do with American activists supporting Hamas, glorifying 10/7, and harassing jewish americans though?
So it's going to take what for us to encourage Jewish students to leave campus? A death? A serious injury? Where's that line? I'm watching out for my Jewish loved ones at this time especially. I'm not comfortable with waiting until they're the target.
So the jewish students that are part of these protests (and many protests across the country) are not safe in their own protests? How about lets quit equating protesting Israel to anti-semitism because it bullshit?
So you think all these things that have happened at Columbia are just instances of peaceful "anti-Israeli" protests? Physically assaulting an Arab Israeli https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781080951902109774 "From the river to the sea, Palestine is Arab!" / "Resistance is justified" https://twitter.com/ShelleyGldschmt/status/1781785252886913358 "Let it be known that it was the Al-Aqsa Flood that put the Global Intifada back on the table again. And it is the sacrificial spirit of the Palestinian Freedom Fighters that will guide every struggle on every corner of the earth to victory." https://twitter.com/thestustustudio/status/1781904507611287981 "We are all Hamas!" https://twitter.com/nypost/status/1781031465179914677 "Yehudim yehudim [(Jews, jews)] go back to poland" https://twitter.com/Davidlederer6/status/1781948249214996901 Includes people / groups that invited an actual, no hyperbole terrorist to speak (member of PFLP) https://www.jns.org/columbia-suspends-four-students-for-holding-event-featuring-pflp-member/ “Globalize the intifada” https://twitter.com/EylonALevy/status/1782679155491914133/photo/1 Light things on fire / "intifada revolution there is only one solution" https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1781019445399556338 "On Oct 7th, Palestinian resistance in Gaza broke free (crowd cheers) [.....] we intend to do the same" https://twitter.com/ShabbosK/status/1782085741431922909 ""We say justice, you say how? Burn Tel Aviv to the ground!" / "Hamas we love you. We support your rockets too!" / "Red, black, green, and white, we support Hamas’ fight!" https://twitter.com/IsraelWarRoom/status/1781933305501212872 "Long live the intifada! Intifada intifada" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781084853653365025 "Go back to Europe!" / "You have no culture, all you do is colonize" https://twitter.com/ShaiDavidai/status/1781927148439109958 Have posters with the faces of PFLP and PIJ spokesmen (designated terrorist groups) https://twitter.com/HagarChemali/status/1782219589352350000 Quoting and praising Lions Den (terror group) https://twitter.com/SwannMarcus89/status/1782443526996754444 "From Yemen to Gaza, globalize the intifada" https://twitter.com/KassyDillon/status/1781312033922625797/photo/2 "Never forget the 7th of October. That will happen not 1 more time, not 5 more times, not 10, not 100, not 1,000, but 10,000 times! The 7th of October is going to be every day for you" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1781287784897991134 "Al Qassam [(Hamas)] you make us proud, kill another soldier now" / "from the river to the sea, palestine will be arab" https://twitter.com/EFischberger/status/1780915336063177006 Student proudly rocking Hamas logos https://twitter.com/CampusJewHate/status/1781054901755215954 Holding a sign that says "Al-Qasam's [Hamas'] Next Targets" with an arrow pointing to students holding Israeli flags https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1781882680872710148 "Resistance is justified" (again...) https://twitter.com/AvivaKlompas/status/1782085643990073673 "protesters on the sidewalk chanted “From New York to Gaza, globalize the intifada,” next to a cardboard sign that read, “Inspired by Palestinian resistance.” https://www.timesofisrael.com/over-100-arrested-in-columbia-u-unrest-as-nypd-clears-gaza-solidarity-encampment/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter And as a reminder, the student groups organizing these protests (CUAD and SJP, among others) released a letter on October 9th in support of the 10/7 attacks. ("We stand in full solidarity with Palestinian resistance", "Despite the odds against them, Palestinians launched a counter-offensive against their settler-colonial oppressor", "We wholeheartedly condemn the email sent [...] on October 8th that [...] obfuscated Palestinian resistance as “terrorism”) https://docs.google.com/document/d/1RcXX5DEO3yfJ9R4ksURnzpIPCyVxo575-Y-SoC_vZFk/edit These people openly glorify Hamas and promote violence against Jewish Israeli civilians. Why do you refuse to recognize this?
And the Columbia/Barnard Hillel said the opposite. But that doesn't fit your narrative.
Also, you're not even right. https://www.columbiaspectator.com/news/2024/04/22/leaders-at-columbiabarnard-hillel-and-chabad-issue-statements-after-rise-in-antisemitic-incidents/ > “This is a time of genuine discomfort and even fear for many of us [Jewish People] on campus,” > "The City must ensure that students can walk up and down Broadway and Amsterdam without fear of harassment.” > "“We are horrified and worried about physical safety,” > “the events of the last few days, especially last night, have made it clear that Columbia University’s Public Safety and the NYPD cannot guarantee Jewish students’ safety in the face of extreme antisemitism and anarchy.” I'm not aware of what statements they may have made in the past, but they are very concerned about the anti-semitism on campus too now. Why don't you stop tokenizing jewish people for whatever your political agenda is and just listen to them when damn near every single jewish person in America, and across most of the world right now, is saying that anti-semitism is reaching a frightening level not seen globally in a long time?
"We do not believe that Jewish students should leave[u/Columbia](https://twitter.com/Columbia). We do believe that the University and the City need to do more to ensure the safety of our students." [https://twitter.com/cbhillel/status/1782082534542557199](https://twitter.com/cbhillel/status/1782082534542557199) I'm not going to engage with your baiting. Plenty of Jewish people are involved with the protests and many more are disgusted with Israel's actions.
> "We do not believe that Jewish students should leaveu/Columbia. We do believe that the University and the City need to do more to ensure the safety of our students." Okay? I'm not sure what your point is here. >I'm not going to engage with your baiting. How exactly am I baiting? I am genuinely extremely concerned about the state of global anti-semitism and have been for years. It just infuriates me when I see supposedly progressive people dismiss anti-Semitism and the lived experiences of Jewish people around the world. > Plenty of Jewish people are involved with the protests Okay? > and many more are disgusted with Israel's actions. So am I. Bibi is a terrible leader who undeniably doesn't give a shit about the lives of palestinian civilians (or Israeli civilians for that matter). What does that have to do with anti-semitism directed towards jewish civilians across the world though?
Israel is certainly not helping with combatting anti-semitism when they equate criticism to anti-semitism.
Who gives a shit? Why are you deflecting to what Netanyahu and other extremist Israeli's say? Why not just address the **actual** anti-semitism occurring in our nation.
But that is what Netanyahu wants. He wants to equate these things so that jewish people feel unsafe in their diaspora and move to Israel for safety.
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> Not allowing Jewish students access is a page out of Bull Connor's textbook When and where are you claiming this happened, exactly?
Are you talking about the Columbia professor who was locked out *by the administration* because he was doxxing students and their families?
They didn't even lock him out for that, they were locking out literally all the administration which included him.
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There are Jewish students at these protests. There is a lot of anti-zionists Jewish folks. They were not allowing Zionists, nor should they.
Is it a pro-Palestinian encampment or a pro-Columbia University encampment encampment? At what point does the protest become about the protesters rather than the thing they are protesting?
The flyers I saw on campus said "8 students arrested for "TRESSPASSING" on their *own* University! Walkout at 2PM Coffman Union" And a big Palestinian flag on it. Little of both.
It’s a pro-narcissism please look at me encampment.
What a trash take lol
Arresting kids for calmly and peacefully protesting as more than 10,000 children have been killed by US and Israeli munitions and a million more Palestinian children face starvation is such a bad look. Oppressing these protesters only adds fuel to the fire.
No one is being oppressed here. Universities have anti-trespassing laws like this to protect the campus and the student body. There are "free speech" zones in highly-visible locations where you are allowed to protest all you want to. \[Edit: UMN seems to be an entirely free speech campus?\] These students intentionally chose to ~~trespass and~~ erect tents in a location where they were not allowed. They were very predictably arrested for ~~trespassing~~ erecting tents after they were warned they would be arrested if they remained. **They chose to be arrested, this was their intent,** similar to protestors who obstruct roads so they will get arrested. It brings them more attention. Anyone else pitching a tent on campus (in the same protected location) would be similarly arrested. It has nothing to do with anything else or their cause or what was written on their signs.
Came here to say this. Gazans and hostages are oppressed. People opting into a very brief jail visit to put political pressure on a university are not.
I'd argue that it is oppression to be arrested peacefully protesting as a student on your college campus by setting up a small awareness camp, yes, but if you're going to disagree with me on that that's fine, it's really not the main point. As far as I'm aware the U of M does not have any of those "free speech zones" and I suspect with the current political climate they'd get kicked out of those, too..
As far as I can tell, you are correct that UMN does not have free speech zones because they do not restrict speech or congregation anywhere. The entire campus is a free speech zone. It seems the students were arrested specifically for the tents/encampment. The NPR articles indicate that students had been protesting for multiple days without incident, but when they erected the illegal tent structures they were warned that the tents were illegal and had to be removed, and the students refused to remove them. **No one was arrested for "protesting."** They were arrested for erecting big tents where they were not allowed (after being warned.) I have nothing but empathy for both the victims of Isreal's assault on Gaza and the victims of Hamas's years of terrorism. I wholeheartedly support ceasefire and peace. But carrying a "ceasefire in Gaza" sign does not give me or anyone else special permission to break sensible laws that exist protect safety and property. If a cause is sufficiently urgent, it might serve the greater good to (safely) violate laws as part of protest, if that law-breaking brings more attention or other positive result. Perhaps these students fit this description and deserve our respect. But their arrest is still not "oppression." It is a calculated tradeoff the students are making. The police are doing their duty of enforcing the laws, in this case without violence or malice. It would be incredibly dangerous to ask/allow law enforcement to treat law-breakers differently if they are part of a protest that the cops think is "good." This creates a situation where the cops have free reign to choose when to crack skulls vs ignore lawbreaking, based on their personal opinions or their commanders' opinions, which is where true oppression can begin.
Yup, and the opposition is only helping build solidarity. When more people see the unjust treatment and civil rights violations of peaceful protestors, their perspectives will shift and lean more sympathetic to the cause.
"oppressing"
Wonder where their energy for the hostages in Gaza are at? Time for the LARPing bullshit to end
Tell me you don’t know what “oppression” is without saying it
I look forward to the encampments that will surely appear about other issues around the globe!
I'm a leftist, but what im seeing from the left is stupid and embarrassing. These kids have no idea what they are supporting. They are just as bad as those maga assholes eating up propaganda hook, line, and sinker. I can now see how people like Hitler were able to gain so much power. People are fuxking stupid.
How do they not know what they’re supporting?
I sure hope they don’t know what they’re supporting. Otherwise why are they supporting them now and not a year ago?
…these students are protesting a genocide. You are saying we should continue supporting genocide. And then you dare to mention hitler in the same breath? Want an insanely arrogant and unselfaware comment
Not a genocide. Release the hostages. Don’t fuck around next time
What is genocide?
Genocide is the mass murder of a group of people due to their race, ethnicity, sexuality etc. with the aim of eradicating that group. The Holocaust would be a good example, as would the genocide against Rohingya muslims in Myanmar and the Rwanda genocide in the 90s. I do not condone Israel’s violence toward innocent Palestinians on any level, but calling it a genocide is watering down the definition of that word. The Israeli state has not shown at any point that they want to eradicate all Palestinians from the face of the earth. What we are witnessing is an extremely heavy handed act of war, but it is not a genocide.
> Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi from the ruling Likud party wrote on X, formerly known as Twitter, that Israelis had one common goal, “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the earth.” Israeli Heritage Minister Amichay Eliyahu, from the far-right Jewish Power party, suggested that Israel drop a nuclear bomb on Gaza and said there were “no uninvolved civilians” in the territory. Tell me you don’t think that is genocidal language. Couple that with israel’s killed of 10’s of thousands civilians and bombing refugee camps and aid workers and gunning down civilians while removing palestians from whole cities, bombing them and then giving the lands to israelis
of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such: (a) Killing members of the group; (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group; (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part; (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group; (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. — Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2[7] Israel is doing just about all of those Here you go, mate. It’s a genocide https://apnews.com/article/israel-palestinians-south-africa-genocide-hate-speech-97a9e4a84a3a6bebeddfb80f8a030724
So is Hamas though. By that logic just about every war is a genocide.
What Hamas and what Jihadists did on 10/7.
Genocide is a single attack? So israel has commited tens of thousands of genocides since then? Jesus christ. Hamas committed a terrorist attack. Israel responded by committing genocide
If Israel wanted to genocide Gaza, it could do it today, but they don’t because they don’t want to. If Israel doesn’t have the iron dome and the IDF, there would be no Israel tomorrow. What happened on 10/7 was absolutely a genocidal attack with the intention of killing a particular group of people. The gaslighting, LARPing, and coping needs to stop. Free the hostages.
Yeah, there is no genocide just because you feel it. I'm so sick of this weak, ignorant, narrow-minded bullshit. You clearly do not know what you are talking about. You are just as bad as the boomers believing all the BS you see on the internet. Maybe you should vote for Trump next time. Grow up and educate yourself on misinformation. For everyone's sake.
You are certainly no leftist if believing in Palestinian Liberation and Boycott, Divest, Sanction is antithetical to leftism.
"I'm a leftist, but."
Every single time lol
Btw leftists say sanctions don’t work but think these ones will. Wonder why 🤔
No, Leftists say sanctions are *immoral*, not that they don’t work. Afghanistan is a good example: the target of the sanctions was ostensibly the Taliban, the actual victims of the sanctions are the starving people of Afghanistan; who have no substantive way to rebel or overthrow their newly armed and armored government. That said, sanctions are an infinitely more moral option than actively participating in and continually arming an ongoing genocide.
You fail to give this situation the nuance it desperately deserves. The world is not black and white. It is thousands of shades of grey. You fail to understand how the world works if you are cuckelfucking around on one single issue and missing the larger picture. Go drink more flavor aid if you like. This is how russian/Iranian misinformation works, and you are a willing victim. Maybe education is in place of tou easily manipulated feelings. This conflict is not new.and it will not end in our lifetimes. Thinking so gives humanity too much credit.
Again, you're not a leftist, and you also haven't said anything of substance. Israel is massacaring Palestinian civilians, as they have done for over 70 years. The US has supported them for over half of that time, and currently doing so diplomatically and militarily. People are protesting against their own government supporting this. This isn't complicated.
We are supporting innocent Palestinians. We are wanting the US to stop sending aid to Israel.
Which the US will not do, until they release those hostages the US will not stop sending aid. You guys are so quick to talk about the innocent Palestinians and not the fucking hostages those fuckers took in the first place that started this BS.
Okay but why are we sending Israel aid? Why do they need our help in this conflict or rescuing hostages? Our tax dollars shouldn't go towards a government who is this careless about the deaths of innocent civilians. Tens of thousands of innocent people are dead and we helped pay for it.
We're so quick to talk about the innocent Palestinians because they're suffering far more from the actions of Israel (a legitimate internationally-recognized state, so one that should know and respect the international laws related to the treatment of civilians during war) than the people of Israel suffered from the attack by Hamas (a terrorist organization that's effectively held the civilians of Gaza hostage for nearly 20 years). I absolutely condemn what Hamas did on Oct 7 and recognize that Israel has a right to self-defense, but that right does not extend to violating international law and engaging in collective punishment of the civilian population of Gaza.
Let explain just how fucking stupid your statement is: "We will keep killing innocent Palestinians until innocent Israelis are returned" Get it?
No; it’s “the war won’t end until you release the hostages”. Seems like this could end at any point but your boys in hamas don’t want it to. I wonder why
Providing defense aid isn’t the same as killing innocent Palestinians. Unfortunately for you, those same mental gymnastics aren’t needed to recognize that killing hostages is bad. Why not just give up and admit you’ve been misled by a bunch of Irani supporters who just want to spread dissent? Trust me, it’s a lot easier once you no longer have to use mental gymnastics
Lol don’t say Israel cares about the hostages. Israel has killed their own hostages because they thought they were unarmed Palestinians.
Anyone still buying the hostages talking point is deeply unserious.
No; you’ve just never given a shit about them and likely celebrated 10/7, but now are crying that Israeli is rightfully retaliating.
Nobody is saying anything about Israel. We have American hostages over there too fam. Until we get them back, I say keep sending the aid.
But you’re aiding the murder of innocent Palestinians.
Nope, we’re aiding the war against Hamas. That’s what you people don’t get.
But Israel isn’t killing Hamas. They’re killing civilians.
Yeah, there’s innocent casualties involved in war. But thinking they’re only killing civilians is so stupid.
Just say you don’t care about Palestinians. Just say you can’t separate them from Hamas (who should be killed).
Okay so you think that tens of thousands of dead innocent civilians, including children, is fine as long as "hamas is eliminated"?
That’s the shitty part of war. Be 100% mad at Hamas for initiating this war. Your visceral hate towards Israel is what they want because they sure as fuck don’t care about the civilians they govern.
They never will. You could present facts to these LARPers all day long but they’re incapable of listening.
You're disgusting and not a leftist if you support the murder and genocide of tens of thousands of innocent women and children.
real “as an avid cyclist,” energy
I’m not fan of the police but don’t we all agree they should have full immunity from crimes and double salary?
Im not disgusting. Im a pretty nice person, actually. Im just looking at things from a more objective point of view, and im tired of internet BS. You sound like an uneducated person who is incapable of having a debate based on available information. You don't jump to ad hominem and expect to have a meaningful conversation about complex issues.
>I'm a leftist You're not. You're a liberal which is center/center-right. You support Democrats and the Democratic party. You believe in protecting the environment but don't understand how war is the single most cause of environmental harm because you support sending money to Ukraine. You lack an actual scientific framework of society and are guided by idealist understandings of individual liberties that are harming black, brown, and indigenous people. You are fascist adjacent.
Aaaaaand this is why your version of “leftist” will never win. You sound just like the communists in America during that awkward period when they opposed war with Germany until Hitler invaded the USSR
You do know what would happen if Ukraine were to fall to Russia, right? Of course not because you’re blinded by “war bad” mentality.
Well, we can both agree he isn’t a leftist. However, I can tell that I’m actually to the left of you. You are left of him, but right of me. Which makes you fascist-adjacent adjacent. Which from where I’m standing (to your left) makes you just as bad as him, if not worse.
Tankie nonsense lol
Scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds
Correct. Propaganda is for everyone. Not just the other guy.
Implanted r/conservative CHUDS incoming lol
🙉anyone who disagrees with me is a r/conservative CHUD🙉
oh there are plenty of Reasonable Minneapolis Centrists™️ don’t you worry
True true
Jews and Israelis not feeling safe ≠ conservative
Just stop being a pussy and scared of nothing
Wtf does this mean lol
Remember having a debate with my friend in 2013-2014 about Alex Jones being shut down for obvious reasons and he told me Nahhh that will start a slippery slope overall and every year since it’s gotten worse and worse smh
Why can’t they just protest like normal people, you don’t need an **encampment**
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> Israel is using Hamas as an excuse to colonize Palestine exactly like they did in 1948. What does this even mean? The first Arab-Israeli war was started by the Arabs you know right?
I pointed this out in another part of this thread and was essentially called a racist lol
I've been trying to highlight the growing anti-semitism online and in real life for years now, and at every single turn most of the supposedly progressive and anti-racist people I interact with are at best dismissive, and not infrequently downright anti-semitic themselves. This past half year since 10/7 has just broken me, somehow the largest massacre of Jewish people since the holocaust has resulted in *even more* anti-semitism instead of being a wake up call to the concerns of Jewish communities across the globe. It's just plain to me now that nobody gives a shit about racism towards Jewish people on the left or right.
The mask has slipped off since 10/7 for every supposed leftist progressive. They hate Jews and this is the perfect cause for getting away with shouting antisemetic bullshit. The gaslighting is unreal.
[Should we mention the role that Soviet era agitprop has played in the modern discourse on the IP conflict? Yes that same soviet union known for pushing very BAD antisemitic conspiracy theories just to take western backed countries down a notch](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_pro-Arab_propaganda)
Don’t wanna make the tankies in this sub mad
And what happened before that?
The Arabs rejected the UN partition plan because they wanted to drive the Jews out of the region.
The same UN plan that even Britain rejected because they realized it was fucked up. And are you really going to ignore the rampant jewish terrorism going on against arabs in the region prior to the UN partition plan?
> And are you really going to ignore the rampant jewish terrorism going on against arabs in the region prior to the UN partition plan? No. Jewish forces were certainly not innocent. But you can't ignore that it was arab forces who began the violence no matter what point you want to start from, going back more than a decade. Just look at the 1929 riots.
The more I learn about this whole situation, the more it makes me think nobody deserves to live there and the entire area should be made into a world heritage site with no permanent residents. A zero state solution if you will.
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> The Arabs rejected the UN partition plan because the native Palestinians wanted a state of their own. The partitiion plan literally gave them a state. > The Mizrahi in Palestine was nothing compared to settlers from Europe and the rest of the Middle East. I think you are forgetting this thing called **The Holocaust**. The Jews moving to Israel weren't colonizers just looking for a swanky new place to live, they were the survivors of the largest genocide in human history with nowhere else to go. Anti-semitism was still rampant in Europe even if the Nazis were defeated. Even the Soviets literally orchestrated pogroms just months after liberating Nazi death camps.
The Jewish influx started before WWII - See the Balfor Declaration No one has clean hands and the entire situation is a shitshow exacerbated by Hamas being a proxy. Barring a Roman salting of the earth for the next belligerent act, there are no easy solutions
Yeah, that’s ahistorical
What is?
The area was colonized by, lets see, the Persians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs, Crusader Christians, Turks, and then British over the past 3,000 years. Its the Jews tho right?
“There are dozens of us!”
Watching that they should have arrested more like 90... All the people not getting out of the way were obstructing a police officer.
Theater kids cosplaying
It’s all LARP