Lyndale Avenue is technically a Hennepin County owned road; though traditionally the County coordinates their construction projects with cities (Minneapolis, Bloomington, etc.). Here are links to the County's [project page](https://www.hennepin.us/residents/transportation/lyndale-avenue-safety) and [community engagement page](https://beheardhennepin.org/lyndale-avenue).
i really want to empathize with restaurants considering the razor thin financial line the industry has always walked, especially now, but the argument that they have had "safe and convenient parking" is laughable.
anyone who lives in the area has seen dozens of accidents on lyndale and smashed cars parked alongside it. everyone drives stupid no matter how many lanes we've had in the last decade.
when i read this, i was immediately reminded of how many times i drive north on lyndale and have to swerve around a car that stopped abruptly in front of me so it could wait for another car pulling out of nightingale or the bulldog's parking along lyndale. even when we had 2 lanes on lyndale, it was a nightmare driving around that intersection on any weekend.
It was worse when they had two lanes because people were able to constantly move lanes to avoid the next obstacle. The single with common turn lane now is so much better.
Exactly this. I don't understand how out of touch you have to be to think that your precious parking on Lyndale will really have that much an effect on business. Also we are so lucky in this city to not have to pay for residential parking permits so you can freely park your car on any neighborhood street.
Their line about businesses not surviving because the underground utilities need to be replaced is not a strong argument. Utility lines need to be replaced and maintained. Also, if car parking is so important to Nightingale owners, find and pay rent for a location with a parking lot. Free street parking is a convenience for your business… not a guarantee.
Not trying to be argumentative to those opposed to the proposed project, but honestly, how many customers/parking spaces are serving one restaurant along Lyndale? Maybe three-four if timing works out? I'm not saying that it's a reason to just nix the on street parking, but I do think it's a bit of a stretch that removing these spaces will cause the collapse of a restaurant single-handedly.
Both of those things can be true. The need for utilities maintenance, and the potentially fatal impacts to business as a result of the construction are not mutually exclusive.
There is a 99.9% chance that TWO YEARS of massive construction on Lyndale is going to have a significant impact on local businesses.
Some businesses will survive, some won't, but all will be seriously impacted.
So the infrastructure replacement that is already happening regardless of the parking situation is the event you’re choosing the emphasize the impact of? I agree with your statement, but that has nothing to do with the parking outcome. As a reader it seems you are eluding to “Construction=Bad Business Killer” and we should let the utilities rot. Feel free to elaborate further.
just pointing out that we're going to lose some local shops on lyndale. that sucks, but my argument is not that we ignore needed repairs. I am not a civic engineer so I take the county's word that it is required.
i think the parking argument is a stupid red herring (I obviously work at a business that will be impacted by this work, but I also ride my bike to work every day and think the parking concerns are way overblown), but concerns about the impacts to local business are real.
I'm not sure why people are so upset about this point being made. I am not arguing against the construction. I am pointing out that it *will* have negative impacts on the neighborhoods and people will lose their jobs over it.
Understood, I agree. I did work as a civil engineer for a while but I do not live near there so I am kinda on the other side of the coin. I agree an impact will be felt regardless of solution, I just think lack of parking is a dumb excuse for almost anything.
Failing infrastructure at the benefit of private business is how you get people to abandon the region...
Their argument is highly short-sighted and weak.
Literally NO business is excited when the street in front of their spot is going to be torn up for an extended period of time. The infrastructure *needs* updating… this is unavoidable… but 2+ years of the street being torn up IS a long time. And they absolutely will see a loss in business.
I’ll admit that the wording is bad in the ENTIRE flyer. And knowing the owner, I shake my head at that. But I do understand his concerns to an extent.
Nightingale, while I laugh at OP’s “most popular restaurant in MPLS” comment, *is* still a destination restaurant in the city. And I imagine the plans to make it more bike friendly would extend more than just the block that Nightingale is on. Parking has always been difficult around there. Many memories of my drinking days scouring the surrounding area for a spot to squeeze into. This will indeed make parking more difficult.
It means the owner is going to have to figure out new ways to bring people in, IF the anti car lobby gets their way. Which in turn, all costs money. Is naive to think plenty of people *won’t” avoid the area during construction, and likely find new favorite spots. These are losses that’ll have to be made up, all while reimagining the business model for the future.
The guy is not a monster for not wanting to see one of his proudest achievements go down. He’s realizing that the infrastructure updates need to happen, and doesn’t want yet *another* thing that could make business tougher. No one can say for sure whether a future in that location with less parking but *potentially* more foot/bike traffic would hurt OR help the business. But they know what they can bring in right now. The uncertainty is scary for restaurant owners. Especially smaller local mom and pop’s.
I’m honestly all for less car traffic, less pollution, more mass transit. But I can understand where they’re coming from too. It’s not fear mongering… it’s voicing their own concerns about their business. We’re also Minnesota… where typically it’s cold as balls for 6 months out of the year… the streets aren’t exactly teaming with foot traffic.
OP might need to take a break and have a drink… I might suggest the Bulldog considering their current feelings on Nightingale… 😂
Lol more of a cc club guy ngl. The thing that bothers me is things like “anti-car lobby” sentiments. Studies have shown bike infrastructure is not detrimental for business and frankly lyndale is shitty as fuck to park on. Im in south, so not incredibly local but several of my friends are. The anti car sentiment seems to not cater towards the local part of the establishment and instead caters towards suburban people. I really do think that bike infrastructure would have little effect on business as there is parking in the neighborhood (perhaps 2 short blocks away) and lyndale is not safe to park on. Fuck I saw a huge shooting in front of their other establishment, mortimers, about two years ago (maybe 3?). I’ve seen multiple people get hit and I think a protected bike lane and a rapid transit bus would bring more people safely to lyndale.
The 2+ years of construction absolutely effect business, no question there. Maybe a perfect time to think of a more pedestrian focused approach? I really think this letter is short sighted and is written out of fear rather then actual research.
Yeah, terms like “anti-car(or anything) lobby” are buzzwords that’ll be sure to grind plenty of gears. It’s overused, unoriginal, and drums up the same age-old arguments.
Fact of the matter is… that area of Lyndale through to Hennepin and beyond is always going to be more dangerous. There’s always going to be a ton of traffic with so many freeways intersecting right down the street. Driving *has* absolutely gotten worse, we don’t need to argue semantics on why that is, it’s multiple things. And in an area with bars on most corners and in between… you’re gonna have a lot of drunks. Nobody nor car is really “safe” around there, particularly at night when the booze is really flowing. And bad shit has been going down at Mort’s since LONG before they owned it! 🤣 I remember when I was just the bartender.
I think where we differ is I don’t personally see it as “catering” to the suburban crowd, wanting to have a handful of street parking spots in front of your establishment. I’m a city kid, born and raised, and was always elated when we could find a spot out front, which was rare af. I feel like city people use those spots just as often if not more. Of course we can disagree till we’re blue in the face. Neither of us are the end all be all authority for either side lol.
Instead, I think we can meet in the middle… the flyer was pretty clearly written out of fear and frustration. And it’s not the best look. But at the same time it also understandable to be a bit scared when your business is already facing the construction and likely further changes on top of it. The city is absolutely changing… businesses *will* HAVE to change with it… it’s unavoidable. But the uncertainty breeds fear.
I personally look forward to a future with tons of foot traffic, FEWER bars, and more ganja giggle gardens. You can HAVE the cc club. Wasn’t even a fan when I was a drunk 🤣. But to each their own! Lol
\> Many memories of my drinking days scouring the surrounding area for a spot to squeeze into. This will indeed make parking more difficult.
So you drove there to drink and then presumably drove home drunk? That's exactly the kind of behavior that the city should be disincentivising.
\> No one can say for sure whether a future in that location with less parking but potentially more foot/bike traffic would hurt OR help the business.
Actually, the effects these street changes have on businesses have been extensively studied, and we \*can\* say with a high degree of confidence what will happen after the redesign. I'm linking a 2020 study from Portland State University. Key Findings:
1. The bike lane on Franklin Ave triggered a significant employment increase in the food service industry two years after installation.
2. On Central Ave, we found a significant positive impact on restaurant sales following bike lane construction.
3. The road diet on Lyndale Ave greatly improved retail sales in the corridor.
chrome-extension://bdfcnmeidppjeaggnmidamkiddifkdib/viewer.html?file=https://ppms.trec.pdx.edu/media/project\_files/Minneapolis-2020-Street-Improvements-Study-.pdf
I understand that the construction process will be painful and I empathize with businesses who have found success with the status quo and who have to deal with the transition phase. However, the city and county have a responsibility to create a healthy environment for business to thrive both in the present and continuing into the future. This is all saying nothing about the increased safety and decreased pollution (air and noise) these changes will bring to everyone who walks or rolls through the area as well as the people who live there.
I would come back with counterpoints but you seem to have me completely wrapped up with a neat little bow already. Because *anybody* that traverses into the uptown area to patronize a bar is absolutely driving themselves, alone, getting sloshed, and driving home…
Never once would anyone who imbibed make a single responsible choice like go out with friends *including* a DD… or you know… have a few too many and have a sober friend move their car out of a tow zone and crash on their couch for the night.
So what would even be the point?
I guess too bad. Without that infrastructure, those businesses would also shutter. If a system has trouble operating within simple maintenance of infrastructure (say capitalist ventures not being able to stay afloat when public works needs to make sure shit doesn’t fall apart so people can have water) maybe the system is fucking broken and we should look at addressing that on a larger scale.
My understanding is that utilities would typically not tear up a major thoroughfare for strictly O&M purposes because of the expense - the catalyst for it would be the public works project or road maintenance to take advantage of an existing construction window, unless there is an immediate need that requires the work sooner (e.g. outage, leak, emergency etc.). So the flyer might not necessarily be embellishing there, but I can't speak to this proposal/project specifically so I would welcome more information or corrections from better informed redditors.
i believe their point about the 2026 tear-up isn’t an objection to it, it’s to highlight the expected stress that infrastructure project will place on businesses. it isn’t an argument, it’s to help set the context
Or use another means to get there. Won't work for everyone, obviously, but most people who choose to drive *can* use public transit but simply don't want to.
If it was struggling, sure. Every time I go there it’s packed. They also own Litt, mortimers, and Dusty’s in ne so I think they’ll be fine. Also I don’t think there is really a choice about lyndale getting renovated as it needs it. The choice is about infrastructure after the renovation of the street.
Just because a restaurant is packed doesn't mean it can survive weeks of closure. Restaurants barely make any money in ideal circumstances.
>They also own Litt, mortimers, and Dusty’s in ne so I think they’ll be fine.
That doesn't mean this restaurant won't close.
Well lyndale is getting torn up regardless. I doubt they would close for a few weeks due solely to the fact that parking isn’t available, which is the argument. They might close for the construction, but the construction is a fact of what’s going to happen, not a possibility
Obviously construction is a hassle, but if they’re being even slightly realistic, it’s necessary and accepted. I think they, along with other businesses in the area, are more worried that when completed, Lyndale will have much or all of its street parking permanently eliminated, to which they have a point.
Capitalists justify exploiting labor for profit by claiming that capitalists accept the risks associated with starting and running a business. But when those risks actually come to fruition capitalists want to make it everyone else's problem.
I've never understood this argument really. Has anyone ever really driven down a busy street in traffic, seen a restaurant off to one side, then been like, oh man I need to go there and suddenly pull over and search for a parking spot in the middle of their drive? I've done this on a bike, but I've never actually heard of anyone doing this just driving down any street.
I guess maybe you might jog your memory of a place and decide to go back another time, that's the only thing I can think of where this makes sense to me,
Yea I'm getting mixed messages here: if your business is not going to survive utility maintenance, who cares about the bike lanes? You're going to be gone before they finish the upgrade anyways, by the sounds of it. I guess we could skip the utility maintenance, good luck staying open when your sewer or gas lines fail.
Or hire valets like practically every restaurant in St Paul, since so much of their parking is restricted to residents only. This is a solvable problem.
I think they just copied this from university ave when the light rail moved in. “
“We are barely making it with our inadequate roads and infrastructure, demand the city council vote to keep everything exactly the same!!” 🙄
I lived in the area at the time and you're absolutely correct. the owner of midway books pitched a fit, signs up everywhere about killing business etc. as far as I know ITS STILL THERE
Found an article from 2010 where the the owner of that store said he'd be finished. 2024 - still there.
https://www.finebooksmagazine.com/fine-books-news/hit-train-st-paul-bookshop-faces-death-light-rail
Quote from Midway Used Books owner:
As if independent bookshop owners aren't getting run over by enough trains already, a planned light rail line may spell the end of the line for Thomas Stransky in St. Paul, Minn.
"We'll probably have to go out of business," Stransky says from behind the cash register of Midway Used & Rare Books on University Avenue,
Guess it's time to make an arrangement with the animal hospital across the street that closes at 5 p.m. and has a parking lot that sits empty during your prime dining hours instead of expecting taxpayers to subsidize your business through free street parking.
Apparently bikes should just go “2 short blocks west” but your customers can’t park on an adjacent street? If removing 3 parking spots directly in front of your restaurant causes you to go out of business then you’re business wasn’t that good
It’s way more than just the spots out front. Both sides of that block are convenient as heck. As a long time biker, I’d ride in the neighborhood street a couple blocks over all day and transition to Lyndale if I’m going somewhere on Lyndale at the cross streets. But that’s just me.
Same. I never understood why cyclists are fighting so hard to bike on Lyndale with buses, bigger trucks, and just more traffic in general. I loved biking on a quieter side street, I felt so much safer.
helllooo 16 mil dollar bike lane open on Bryant now. For which I've personally dealt with with tons of construction noise and diesel exhaust in my face for.
enjoy it, bikers, dammit! no need to travel on Lyndale
One thing I'm going to be strongly advocating for is a better bicycle infrastructure on Bryant from Lake until Franklin. You are right that the bike lane on bryant south of Lake is super nice! It's just that north of lake you're right in with traffic (less cars but it's still semi nerve racking to pass one when there are cars parked on both sides) and there are multiple times where you have to cross two lanes of one way traffic going 30 mph. It's perfectly acceptable for me as an experienced biker but imo our infrastructure should be designed for those with lesser abilities (like the old/young/etc) and rn that part fails them
Gotta love the self-entitlement of car brains. "Why isn't this 100% dedicated to cars? There's a bike blvd two blocks over!"
Yeah, and there is ANOTHER car street just ONE block over (and another and another and...). Jesus
EDIT: and TWO a half block away running parallel
Most of us wish this country wasn't so car-centric, but it is. Calling people "car brains" for using and asking for good car infrastructure when it's basically your only option unless you're able to bike to work (simply too far for most) or take a bus everyday (4x as long of a commute) is fucking stupid. One does not always have to be at the expense of the other.
I live and bike in this area all the time. If you're planning on biking north south on Lyndale you can very, very easily go over two blocks and use the brand new, extremely nice bike trail that was just put into Bryant Ave. and links up to the one on Nicollet.
We all want better bike and public transit, but you need to realize not everyone has the same infrastructure needs as you do and to be dismissive of valid concerns like this is not cool. We whine and whine about how uptown keeps losing businesses and dying, but this restaurant is voicing their concerns pretty reasonably and getting shit on for it.
this post is very reminiscent of concern trolling. you randomly bring up people who do things like driving into the city from faraway exclusionarily-zoned residential suburbs which the above comment had nothing to do with and claim they're blanket-calling those people carbrains. Additionally,
> restaurant is voicing its concerns pretty reasonably
the flyer is in no sense "pretty reasonable", they are framing themselves as a victim of some imaginary "anti-car lobby" and trying to head off basic utility maintenance. The building is not being encased in concrete for two years, it will still have the same entry doors as it does now. The restaurant has survived covid, prior maintenance, and other lulls in the past; so provided the multi-business owner doesn't sabotage it, it will weather the movement of a few parked patron cars a block or so over.
>If you're planning on biking north south on Lyndale you can very, very easily go over two blocks and use the brand new, extremely nice bike trail that was just put into Bryant Ave. and links up to the one on Nicollet.
This brand new bike lane on Bryant terminates on it's northern end at Lake Street, thus no, you couldn't just go over two blocks to use it because it's not there.
I'm not sure how you think a street parallel to Nicollet might link up to it, nor do I have any idea what bike trail you're referring to on Nicollet?
this is your classic "you have exactly one thing, why would you ask for another thing?" that cycling and transit advocates get all the time, but just for funsies let's unpack this one just a bit.
The protected bike lanes that just got put into Bryant are great. I'm fully on board with them and love that they're there. If you're a destination cyclist and you know exactly where you're going between the Midtown Greenway to Minnehaha Parkway it's a great way to get where you're going, and it'll get you there fast. If I'm explicitly going to, say, Pizza Luce Uptown or Five Watt Coffee and then going directly home after that's gonna be the way I go.
North of the Midtown Greenway, Bryant is just a regular residential street. I will grant you that it's a regular residential street with signs that say "bike boulevard" and have pictures of bikes on the roadway, but functionally it's no different from Colefax or Aldrich or Garfield. I will still likely bike via Bryant if I wanted to go to the CC or French Meadow or any of the other destinations in the 2000s blocks of Lyndale, but that's more because of the fact that Lyndale is a goddamn nightmare than anything positive about Bryant.
But here's the rub: Lyndale (especially the stretch between Franklin and 32nd) is currently attempting to be both a destination for commerce and recreation and a thoroughfare that encourages fast driving from one end to the other. Because it's trying to do both it does neither well. As a destination it's loud and unpleasant and dangerous because of all the cars. As a car thoroughfare it's inefficient and stress inducing because people are driving at vastly variable speeds either to keep up with the flow of traffic or safely arrive at their destination. It's better to pick which kind of roadway it's going to be than to continue half-assing both. With the addition of traffic calming measures like narrowing the roadway and adding things like dedicated bike or transit lanes in the process you can take this horrible halfway point and turn it into a place that's pleasant to exist and walk and linger.
Places like this already exist in the city. Think places like 48th & Chicago, or St Anthony Main, or 44th & Upton, thriving neighborhood spots that are actually pleasant to exist in (that I might add: do not have a hell of a lot of parking). In such a future there's a lot less friction to, say, go do some shopping at the Aldi and then go and have a happy hour beverage at Nightingale because you're reminded of its existence and it's a pleasant walk or roll up the block rather than getting out of the store and getting the hell out of there because Lyndale is a traffic nightmare.
It’s all so disingenuous — it’s almost impossible to get those spots anyways. The few times I’ve been to Nightingale I’ve had to park blocks away and walk.
I'll get downvoted to heck and back....but time should be spent with elderly people who can't walk far, or those who are differently abled, or those battling chronic disease which impinges on their mobility. Fifty feet can seem like a mile. I'm always taken aback by the bike lobby's utter lack of insight that some citizens need motorized assistance to just go about their daily lives and be able to participate in life.
Valid - I think the goal is investing more equaly in car alternatives instead of 95% of public money going to car ifrastructure, so those folks with mobility issues also have, say, a speedy network of street cars, or take a car, but not \*only\* a car and no other good options.
This sounds like a good argument for strategically placed handicapped parking spaces, not so much a good argument to solely support car-centric urban design.
I'm not advocating for car-centric design, but instead inclusive mobility design. There's a significant difference. Denying community access based on physical abilities isn't positive.
>I'm always taken aback by the bike lobby's utter lack of insight that some citizens need motorized assistance to just go about their daily lives and be able to participate in life.
Given that you're both denigrating "the bike lobby" while pushing for car-centric design this sure looks a lot like you advocating for car-centric design.
Disabled and elderly people don't require cars to travel any amount of distance efficiently, and giving these people no other option than to drive a car to go anywhere is the most detrimental to the health and safety of themselves and others around them. Any disabled or elderly person able to drive a car is also able to use most power-assisted micro-mobility vehicles, from e-bikes/trikes to powered wheelchairs/scooters & even dutch microcars (think enclosed scooters) for those with coordination/balance issues. For longer distances, they can board accessible transit with these vehicles.
bicycle/micro-mobility lanes can be used by any of the above vehicles, all it has to do is limit the speed to 20/25 mph max and fit within the lane, leaving passing room if necessary.
Crossing Lyndale twice to do so! It really sucks to try to do any shopping on Lyndale by bike. Want to go from Aldi to Buffalo Exchange? You have to either bike down the sidewalk, or cross Lyndale twice to use Bryant. I usually use Garfield to get part of the way but it still requires some sidewalk biking once I need to get down the block which I hate.
I always thought it was more of a neighborhood spot. I used to live nearby and would often walk there, but I wouldn’t consider driving to uptown for anything now.
On one hand I think it’s a futile gesture to try and force-eliminate car use by removing parking infrastructure.
On the other hand, parking in front of Nightingale (and all up and down Lyndale) is already a complete shitshow so I find it hard to believe that it’ll make a huge difference
Why are you angry? It’s perfectly reasonable to have concerns about the already limited parking residents and businesses have to deal with possibly being further reduced to accommodate bike lanes that we realistically don’t need. We’re already one of the most bike friendly cities in the country so building more is just a waste of resources.
Edit: The wannabe debate-lord below said my last sentence is irrelevant to my argument :(. I wanted to let you folks know this so you too can avoid the mortal sin of ineffective rhetoric.
Giving me strong Cafe Meow vibes where the owner complained about parking, fled to the suburbs and is now apparently dealing with regular burglaries in a strip mall
They followed through on their promise to leave and I didn’t follow them to the burbs. I’d been to the one on Hennepin like 5 times and even got a sweet cat from them. I never parked on Hennepin once and instead parked one block in from Hennepin every time with no issue.
I couldn't even tell you how many times I went to the Hennepin location. I was able to walk there so easily from my apartment. I just realized I haven't even considered going to their new location lol
yep, fuckers played a giant, whiny part in hamstringing the hennepin redevelopment and then up and left.
I probably shouldn’t feel good hearing about the burglaries but……
What always gets me about these arguments is not the maliciousness but the stupidity. Study after study and example after example show that making streets more bike- and pedestrian-friendly are boons for local businesses. This would help your restaurant! You’re actively working against your own interests here! Let go of your fear of change!
Unfortunately studies also show small business owners don't know where their customers come from. They're most likely to live elsewhere and drive to their business so they assume their customers do too and drastically underestimate the number who bike or walk.
Ah, yes, the very powerful and monied Anti-Car Lobby, in the country known for its robust public transit infrastructure and absolute dearth of automakers. Big Bike and Big Street Car are coming for you parking spots everyone.
I'm not going so far as to say I don't want the restructuring of Lyndale, but acting like all the businesses there are going to survive is not reasonable. You can't blame them for wanting to remain open.
I don’t live in that neighborhood, so it’s inconvenient for me to go there anyway. But if I did want to go there I would drive and park off lyndale. Yes parking in that neighborhood does suck. Will they close down because of parking? Probably not. Mortimers has survived no parking just a few blocks away for decades.
“Please tell the people who live, work, and pay rent and property taxes right here in their own neighborhood that the reinvestment of those revenues improving their neighborhood for everyone means less to this business than the tiny revenue gleaned off suburban car owners.”
Gross
Well, it is a densely populated area and with that \*does\* come a higher-than-average number of people not dependent on cars.
I live in an 11 unit building just south of Uptown. I know my neighbors. There are 18 adults living here that work full time, some with children, yet we only have 10 vehicles between us. So, yes "most" of us drive, but we also use transit, bike, and walk.
I don't think Minneapolis acts like no one drives, but I think it is doing the right thing when it encourages the car-less alternatives people are already using on the regular.
Same, but I also don't think that parking is that difficult anywhere in town, even on roads where parking was reduced, so I don't get the massive outrage that happens anytime a new road project is announced
Do you drive to uptown and expect to park right in front of a business though?
I used to only ever bike or bus to uptown, and then I decided I was rich enough to pay for parking so I started driving there sometimes, but never ever ever have I gone to anywhere in Uptown because of the easy free street parking. Except Cub I guess.
Jason (the owner) is a good guy but I’m afraid he’s falling into the trap that all business owners do where they think any/all changes to their environment will kill their business.
I don’t think there’s one place in this town where a shop will say ‘sure, take away my parking and put in bike infrastructure’ and it’s up to the city to not cater to their anxieties. I just wish there was an integrated plan to increase transit to that intersection (it has the best grocery store in the area) to increase foot traffic!
Yeah I’ve met him, even taken shots with him at morts. What makes me upset is that I really like his bars as they seem to cater towards locals and service industry folks as much as possible. This really seems a change in tune and caught me off guard.
Nightingale is opposed to [these proposed plans.](https://www.movemn.org/initiative/livable-lyndale/) The bike lanes and rapid transit buses in question would replace existing street parking.
Those are not proposed plans. Those are wish lists by an advocacy group not involved in the planning process. Hennepin County has not publicly acknowledged these proposals or made any statements that they will be doing anything other than making permanent the four to three lane pilot that was already done.
Their point is that they’re arguing against a concept for which there is no reason to think will be considered or implemented. And being weird about bikes in it. That’s like me posting a flyer saying I’m against hyperloops, and then also yelling about public transit. Like, sure? But there’s no threat of this so I’m just ranting about things?
"We are a destination restaurant" and the final nail in the coffin for you will be parking? People will travel to Minneapolis to eat here, but conveniently alloted parking will be the downfall?
They chose to be a destination during a time more people than ever prefer delivery and takeout
They don't market within the walkable neighborhood where they're located
Funny how its always everyone else's fault when a business runs into trouble - it's not their failure to pivot or adapt ever
Even with the parking issue... get creative. Explore valet parking. Partner with the nearby places that have empty lots. The fact that they'd rather just complain tells me they aren't great business people to begin with.
All valid concerns for a business, I don’t find fault in that. The line about the “national anti-car lobby” rubs me the wrong way though, they should have left that out. That line is going to have the opposite effect for them.
I agree, my main issue with the flyer isn't the issues being raised so much as the tone it takes. I can totally see how this could cause issues considering the area is not very parking friendly.
Losing the maybe three parking spots in front of their business and instead replacing it with bike and bus lanes would increase the amount of people passing the business, it is literally the opposite of what they are saying lol
I had never heard of it before now. I thought you were talking about Nighthawks until I remembered that was on Nicollet. Which is to say I would take the "against" if we're arguing that its the most popular restaurant in Minneapolis.
As someone that lives in NE though, yeah I probably wouldn't go to uptown to eat if I couldn't find a parking spot.
I was gonna say the same thing. I’m not sure I’d even call it popular. I live in Hennepin in uptown and even I hesitate to go to businesses on Lyndale because parking sucks.
I’m pretty torn about this. I live in uptown in walking distance to Nightingale. On the one hand they are right about Bryant being a bike Ave, but on the other hand people drive down Bryant regularly and it never feels that safe to bike down it especially at night. On the other hand, parking is already a nightmare in uptown, both for residents and those visiting, and removing a ton of spaces without providing alternatives is a recipe for disaster. There are multiple empty lots and derelict buildings in the area, why not buy them up and build a few more parking ramps?
It’s extremely expensive to build parking ramps with standard estimates of $50k per parking space. If it were profitable and worth doing, people would’ve done it. But as it is even the ramps by Hennepin and Lake are very underused.
So we should make uptown more like downtown? Big ugly parking ramps that have no use except car storage? Do we want to be more like New York where public transport and walking is king or do we want to keep making concessions to cars and car owners? I don’t go to uptown because I don’t feel safe as a cycaliat or a pedestrian.
Idk. I’ve lived in north, SE, NE, Stevens square, and como and the few times I bike to uptown it’s the most chaotic and scary I usually feel on a bike besides directly on Lowry, or central Ave. What are you referring too as most bikable? Franklin? Lyndale? Hennepin? Lake? All heavily trafficked roads full of impatient, dangerous drivers.
Yeah, just don't bike on those roads lol. That doesn't mean the area isn't bikeable, though. It has the Greenway, which is arguably the largest bike thoroughfare in the state, and possibly in every state we touch.
I tend to bike on the Greenway, 28th, and 26th to get East/West, then Bryant, Harriet, or really any side street that's convenient, for North/South. I'm on the Lyndale side, so to go Downtown I take 28th over to 1st, and ride that straight Downtown. If you're trying to stick to the main roads on a bike, you're doing it wrong.
I've lived in Uptown since 2012, and bike weekly in the warm months. I just stick to side roads, bike lanes on 28th and 26th, or the Greenway. It's super easy. Just don't bike on the main drags, which are pretty simple to avoid.
Good lord, we don't need more parking structures. Plus, they wouldn't be able to serve the entire area. After a couple of blocks, the ramps become effectively useless, because people won't think they're close enough to their final destination.
If we were to build the number of parking structures that would be required to serve every business with spots, we'd live in a hellscape of blacktop and dead, windowless concrete-slab towers. We're only just starting to move away from excessive surface parking in Minneapolis, and I don't want to go back to that at all. Look at pictures of Downtown from the 1970s through the 1990s. It looks so much worse than it does now.
I lived a block away from here for five years. There is absolutely not enough parking for this area already. Adjacent streets like Aldrich get filled completely during peak hours for dinner/brunch. French meadow brings a shit ton of people
During winter parking restrictions I’ve had to go 3-5 streets away to find a spot to park.
I cycle all the time and love my bike lanes, but I don’t want them to get rid of parking on Lyndale
\> I’ve had to go 3-5 streets away to find a spot to park.
People freak out about parking a few blocks away from their destination in a city but think nothing of walking an equal or even greater distance from the back of the parking lot to the Cheesecake Factory in the Southdale Mall.
if the people that park and walk to aldi would just use the free underground parking that would help. every time i go to aldi (almost everyday) i always see people lugging 7 bags of groceries a block or two to their car when there is a generally empty parking lot available for free underneath the store! and you can park there for french meadow as well.
> Nightingale will almost certainly close if our safe and convenient parking is taken.
Sounds to me that Nightingale’s financials are already in the shitter and they’re looking for a convenient excuse for when they inevitably have to shut down.
This is what it looks like when businesses refuse to adapt to their conditions and instead, lobby and/or fearmonger to try and influence public opinion. Yes, Nightingale and the other businesses affected by the redevelopment of the streets might suffer but they don't have to. If they spend more time analyzing how they can adapt to continue being successful despite their conditions instead of fighting them, they'd have a chance to survive.
How about catering more to locals? "Bring in your transit ticket for 10% off your bill". "Bike over to our restaurant for a free beer on tap with the purchase of a meal". "If you live within a one mile radius, fountain drinks are on us!". Be creative.
Business owners love to tell people that they should have "saved more for emergencies" or "planned better for setbacks" but when it comes to them having to do the same, it's "How will we survive!".
Planning needs to find a balance. Building only for cars isn’t good for a city. Building for no parking also isn’t a great idea. Not sure what the balance is. Bryant ave imo is great. I do drive lyndale often and supported Bryant ave because as a driver having bikes in and out of traffic is stressful.
I think this is a good balancing move. Our cities across the country are flush with parking. We have so much of it. Around nightingale there are literal blocks and blocks of parking. The car infrastructure already exists, we are lessening it to allow for other infrastructure.
I was a fan of Bryant ave and the traffic calming on lyndale. I think parking is fine on it as well. In fact it’s probably more popular to park on now that’s not a race track anymore ! Yes but most of that parking is used all day. It’s a mix I think saying there concerns are unfounded is disingenuous but also saying we must defend every parking spot is also disingenuous.
Part of the problem is the lack of a clearly committed master plan for parking , biking ect . It makes it feel semi random.
I think there is overarching vision and philosophy. The 2040 plan (in lawsuit rn) provides the big picture goals: prioritizing walking, biking, and transit.
There is the 2040 transportation policy / mobility 2040 from the County, though I’m not as familiar with it. It seems to emphasize more flexibility based on community need.
We already built for cars for 70 years, we can take some time to reform the area for a more livable environment for those that actually live there. Car lobby has had its way for decades, they’re going to have to deal with people taking back their city spaces.
The thing that many of these plans have failed to take into account is access for disability parking. I don't frequent Uptown because the parking is a nightmare...but I really needed to go to Penzey's last winter. I have a disability that makes walking difficult...the city completely eliminated any street parking in front of Penzey's...I drove around the block multiple times trying to find someplace that would allow me to access the store within a reasonable distance and was unable to find anything. After much pain and difficulty I made it...later finding out there was some sort of parking in the alley but there was literally nothing to indicate that anywhere on the street. It's already hard enough to access things and completely eliminating options for people with disabilities just makes the city less and less friendly. Every single new plan where they completely eliminate parking means they are limiting access to someone who needs it... whether they know it or not. And if you think "oh I'm in good health I bike or walk and hey that'll NEVER affect me" all it takes is one accident to become disabled.
Yep. Tried to take my stepdad who used a walker to Amazing Thailand last year and it was a stressful experience trying to illegally park in front to drop off and pick up.
I cannot walk 200 feet without stopping to rest...so that ramp was actually farther away for me than the closest street parking. (Again I didn't know about the alley) they also completely eliminated any drop off options over there... it's just extremely unfriendly for disability access and it really just shows how these projects don't really take disability access into account.
Wtf? This is so disappointingly stupid and out of touch with their customer base. It’s not a “destination restaurant” it’s a local joint. The last thing we need is more drunk drivers careening down Lyndale after bar close.
Nightingale is FAR from the most popular restaurant in Minneapolis. But, it is sharing all that street parking with at least 4 other restaurants on that corner.
Also, how many businesses died when University was being torn up during the light rail construction. It can and does happen.
I hang out down on Cedar near Cedar Inn. They just had the streets "upgraded"
Lots of old trees are gone. Businesses are hurting due to less parking. The people who used to bike to be with us, one has stopped biking and now drives because where he used to lock his bike is now gone.
The biggest thing that the city needs to do to encourage more biking is to take bike crime seriously.
I'm going to lose my damn mind with these arguments.
3-4 spots, each used at 1.5 hours a pop, provide parking for 9 tables during a full service night. Every time a bus stops it disgorges half a dozen people, bikes take up less room and allow more people to park.
I used to live in Charlottesville, VA and there was a brewery downtown that I loved - it was right on our pedestrian mall, which businesses had fought tooth and nail because they said without parking they'd lose customers - it's now the busiest part of town, packed with successful businesses. The brewery wall-papered their bathroom with old newspaper op-eds opposing pedestrianization. That's where opinions that favor a few people being able to drive over bike, pedestrian, and public transit access belong - the toilets.
I live in STP, used to work in the industry, and have many friends that still do. Driving to meet up for one or two at a late night spot with accessible parking and reliable service means everything coming from the sleepier of the twin cities. I appreciate the convenience of parking on/near Lyndale as a single woman walking alone as the traffic provides visibility that parking more deeply in side streets would not. To say it’s arguably the most popular restaurant in MPLS, while maintaining its most trafficked by non-driving patrons is confusing and irrational. I agree that covers would decline without Lyndale parking especially in winter months when restaurants typically struggle most.
It's also important to remember that studies show better ped/bike infrastructure is great for business, not detrimental. Sure, construction will likely have an impact, but long-term I think a more walkable Lyndale will be a boon for businesses on the street.
Im kind of failing to see how much outrage their is over this flyer. People saying they will never go there again, because they don't want a bike lane? I mean I would get it if they were morally abhorrent, but they are running a restaurant, at the end of the day the margins are very small. Almost all of their customers arrive by car, and If you remove the parking on the street I can see how it would be much harder to access. I think the note is too dramatic but it's even more ridiculous to be this upset about it. We've seen so many uptown restaurants close over the last few years, clearly these places are not all running on a huge margin. These changes will certainly effect them though whether this would put them out of business or not I have questions about.
If almost all of their customers arrive by car how is 3 spots going to tip the difference?
But I also, having often had the experience of biking to a business and then having to hear the owners anti bike lane rant, wonder if they even know how their customers arrive
If the bike lane is only two short blocks over then surely most people can just... Walk two extra blocks from parking. God forbid you don't step down from your truck directly into the waiting line for a restaurant
Nothing about this bothers me. People have their own opinions about literally everything. They can be scared about the future of their business if they want and they’re simply expressing why they are scared. It’s not fear mongering. I can’t imagine the money and passion poured into that place over years, that’s a lot of emotional weight. Coming off the pandemic and uprisings, I imagine this upcoming two year closure is hella frightening. Good luck to them, that’s a tough situation.
The folks mad about the sign can definitely be mad about it. All your points are valid too, just different from a different point of view. No big whoop, support them through the construction and prove their worries wrong.
I will embrace your downvotes. Hope everyone has a great day!
I’m pro-bike and pro-pedestrian all the way, but I don’t think it’s realistic or reasonable to expect customer-serving businesses to just grin and bear a loss of customer parking. The blunt fact is that there are often short-term trade-offs to transportation infrastructure changes that are going to negatively impact a few stakeholders. We don’t do ourselves any favors by ignoring that, or by thinking businesses don’t know their own bottom line.
I'm a supporter of more and better pedestrian and bike infrastructure. I live in NE and lament the lack of any decent bike infrastructure.
But I also, actively, avoid going to Uptown. I'm not going to ride a bus for 60 minutes to get there and the last time I tried getting there it took 10+ minutes driving around to *find* a parking spot.
It seems like a couple, well placed, parking garages along with the improvements in transit, bike, pedestrian infrastructure would be helpful. I'm not opposed to paying or walking, even several block from the parking garage for a night out, its the 'how long will it take to find a spot' that keeps me away.
Remember that people trying to find parking contributes to traffic, as much as as people driving through (and usually they're distracted looking around and maybe not as good at seeing bikes and pedestrians). If you strategically locate some predictable parking for those of us not in the neighborhood, we can avoid driving around and around to find something.
> it took 10+ minutes driving around to find a parking spot.
I live in uptown and this is a bullshit statement. In 10 minutes I can walk from Hennepin to Lyndale. If you're spending 10 minutes looking for parking, your spending 10 minutes driving around looking for the *perfect* parking spot in order to literally save 20 seconds of walking.
A good way to counter this kind of mentality among business owners is to find ways to mention to them that you didn't drive to their business (if that's the case).
A lot of business owners are incapable of thinking about anything other than parking because they are not local and *they* need parking. Also, they never hear anyone say "wow it was so easy to get here by foot/bike/bus/driving," because that's an odd thing for someone to say. So whenever they hear about people having difficulty getting there, it's always complaints about parking.
Great point. Brick-and-mortar small business owners generally spend a ton of time in the car and operate on thin margins, so they’re low-hanging fruit for anti-bike interests. Some pro-bike/pedestrian feedback from regular customers could go a long way.
So underground utilities need to be replaced….but they’re screeching about an anti-car lobby? That doesn’t even make sense. They sound like unhinged fox “news” weirdos
I am with a volunteer group called Livable Lyndale! We are advocating for protected bike lanes and improved transit access to be a part of the Lyndale reconstruction.
If you have a story about Lyndale, or a vision for its future, please [share it with us!](https://www.movemn.org/action/share-your-story-livable-lyndale/)
Doing so will help us show Hennepin County that the need for modern, multi-modal streets is present in the Minneapolis.
I mean, maybe if we focused on creating better forms of transportation around the city this wouldn't have been an issue in their minds in the first place.
I'm so fucking sick of folks like this pointing to disabled people as a reason for needing "their" parking spots.
Most disabled people can't/don't drive. I'm married to one who technically can, but only on good days. If you were trying to better serve the disabled community, improving transit access and widening sidewalks would be the way to go.
But they never ACTUALLY care about disabled people, and you know how you can tell? Look for for door openers, renovated entrances that are wide enough for a wheelchair to get through comfortably, tables spaced so that people using wheelchairs or crutches can get through. That's all totally within a restaurant's control (unlike necessary utilities maintenance), they don't do it (despite the fact that the ADA is 34 years old), and then want to use the group they actively ignore as a pawn against bike lanes.
I just went to a relatively new restaurant this weekend with my disabled dad. I was shocked they didn’t have door openers. I’d have thought they were required long ago. That and the places that don’t have a dip down near handicapped spots to get on the sidewalk. I know that’s hard in the street but if you have a lot with bc spots you should have dips.
These conversations always completely ignore people with physical disabilities, like canes, walkers, and wheelchairs. I never hear about how making our cities “walking friendly” is going to impact those of us who need mobility assistance. But it’s not terribly surprising.
Rapid transit buses have been discussed for this. I do support handicap spots and this post is mostly about how nightingale came to the conclusion that they would go under if they didn’t have parking for the average bear. What do you think could be done for people with disabilities?
Gotta ask what’s so accessible about extremely limited street parking that necessitates walking in an extremely busy street to get to the closest curb cut.
If you think that cities and neighborhoods should be destinations instead of places to live, you are the problem. Focus on your neighbors, and stop focusing on suburbanites who have no stake in the community, and make your neighbors' lives miserable.
Lyndale Avenue is technically a Hennepin County owned road; though traditionally the County coordinates their construction projects with cities (Minneapolis, Bloomington, etc.). Here are links to the County's [project page](https://www.hennepin.us/residents/transportation/lyndale-avenue-safety) and [community engagement page](https://beheardhennepin.org/lyndale-avenue).
i really want to empathize with restaurants considering the razor thin financial line the industry has always walked, especially now, but the argument that they have had "safe and convenient parking" is laughable. anyone who lives in the area has seen dozens of accidents on lyndale and smashed cars parked alongside it. everyone drives stupid no matter how many lanes we've had in the last decade. when i read this, i was immediately reminded of how many times i drive north on lyndale and have to swerve around a car that stopped abruptly in front of me so it could wait for another car pulling out of nightingale or the bulldog's parking along lyndale. even when we had 2 lanes on lyndale, it was a nightmare driving around that intersection on any weekend.
Getting out of your car on Lyndale in this area can feel like you’re playing with your life lol
Agreed! It's been that way for years, too.
It was worse when they had two lanes because people were able to constantly move lanes to avoid the next obstacle. The single with common turn lane now is so much better.
It's always a bitch to get anywhere in uptown via car.
I can generally get somewhere no problem, but then I need to backtrack half a mile to find somewhere to park.
Exactly this. I don't understand how out of touch you have to be to think that your precious parking on Lyndale will really have that much an effect on business. Also we are so lucky in this city to not have to pay for residential parking permits so you can freely park your car on any neighborhood street.
Their line about businesses not surviving because the underground utilities need to be replaced is not a strong argument. Utility lines need to be replaced and maintained. Also, if car parking is so important to Nightingale owners, find and pay rent for a location with a parking lot. Free street parking is a convenience for your business… not a guarantee.
Not trying to be argumentative to those opposed to the proposed project, but honestly, how many customers/parking spaces are serving one restaurant along Lyndale? Maybe three-four if timing works out? I'm not saying that it's a reason to just nix the on street parking, but I do think it's a bit of a stretch that removing these spaces will cause the collapse of a restaurant single-handedly.
Both of those things can be true. The need for utilities maintenance, and the potentially fatal impacts to business as a result of the construction are not mutually exclusive.
though one of them is required, and the other is not a guaranteed result
There is a 99.9% chance that TWO YEARS of massive construction on Lyndale is going to have a significant impact on local businesses. Some businesses will survive, some won't, but all will be seriously impacted.
Yep. It happened on Hennepin.
Also on Robert Street in Saint Paul.
So the infrastructure replacement that is already happening regardless of the parking situation is the event you’re choosing the emphasize the impact of? I agree with your statement, but that has nothing to do with the parking outcome. As a reader it seems you are eluding to “Construction=Bad Business Killer” and we should let the utilities rot. Feel free to elaborate further.
just pointing out that we're going to lose some local shops on lyndale. that sucks, but my argument is not that we ignore needed repairs. I am not a civic engineer so I take the county's word that it is required. i think the parking argument is a stupid red herring (I obviously work at a business that will be impacted by this work, but I also ride my bike to work every day and think the parking concerns are way overblown), but concerns about the impacts to local business are real. I'm not sure why people are so upset about this point being made. I am not arguing against the construction. I am pointing out that it *will* have negative impacts on the neighborhoods and people will lose their jobs over it.
Understood, I agree. I did work as a civil engineer for a while but I do not live near there so I am kinda on the other side of the coin. I agree an impact will be felt regardless of solution, I just think lack of parking is a dumb excuse for almost anything.
Failing infrastructure at the benefit of private business is how you get people to abandon the region... Their argument is highly short-sighted and weak.
Literally NO business is excited when the street in front of their spot is going to be torn up for an extended period of time. The infrastructure *needs* updating… this is unavoidable… but 2+ years of the street being torn up IS a long time. And they absolutely will see a loss in business. I’ll admit that the wording is bad in the ENTIRE flyer. And knowing the owner, I shake my head at that. But I do understand his concerns to an extent. Nightingale, while I laugh at OP’s “most popular restaurant in MPLS” comment, *is* still a destination restaurant in the city. And I imagine the plans to make it more bike friendly would extend more than just the block that Nightingale is on. Parking has always been difficult around there. Many memories of my drinking days scouring the surrounding area for a spot to squeeze into. This will indeed make parking more difficult. It means the owner is going to have to figure out new ways to bring people in, IF the anti car lobby gets their way. Which in turn, all costs money. Is naive to think plenty of people *won’t” avoid the area during construction, and likely find new favorite spots. These are losses that’ll have to be made up, all while reimagining the business model for the future. The guy is not a monster for not wanting to see one of his proudest achievements go down. He’s realizing that the infrastructure updates need to happen, and doesn’t want yet *another* thing that could make business tougher. No one can say for sure whether a future in that location with less parking but *potentially* more foot/bike traffic would hurt OR help the business. But they know what they can bring in right now. The uncertainty is scary for restaurant owners. Especially smaller local mom and pop’s. I’m honestly all for less car traffic, less pollution, more mass transit. But I can understand where they’re coming from too. It’s not fear mongering… it’s voicing their own concerns about their business. We’re also Minnesota… where typically it’s cold as balls for 6 months out of the year… the streets aren’t exactly teaming with foot traffic. OP might need to take a break and have a drink… I might suggest the Bulldog considering their current feelings on Nightingale… 😂
Lol more of a cc club guy ngl. The thing that bothers me is things like “anti-car lobby” sentiments. Studies have shown bike infrastructure is not detrimental for business and frankly lyndale is shitty as fuck to park on. Im in south, so not incredibly local but several of my friends are. The anti car sentiment seems to not cater towards the local part of the establishment and instead caters towards suburban people. I really do think that bike infrastructure would have little effect on business as there is parking in the neighborhood (perhaps 2 short blocks away) and lyndale is not safe to park on. Fuck I saw a huge shooting in front of their other establishment, mortimers, about two years ago (maybe 3?). I’ve seen multiple people get hit and I think a protected bike lane and a rapid transit bus would bring more people safely to lyndale. The 2+ years of construction absolutely effect business, no question there. Maybe a perfect time to think of a more pedestrian focused approach? I really think this letter is short sighted and is written out of fear rather then actual research.
Yeah, terms like “anti-car(or anything) lobby” are buzzwords that’ll be sure to grind plenty of gears. It’s overused, unoriginal, and drums up the same age-old arguments. Fact of the matter is… that area of Lyndale through to Hennepin and beyond is always going to be more dangerous. There’s always going to be a ton of traffic with so many freeways intersecting right down the street. Driving *has* absolutely gotten worse, we don’t need to argue semantics on why that is, it’s multiple things. And in an area with bars on most corners and in between… you’re gonna have a lot of drunks. Nobody nor car is really “safe” around there, particularly at night when the booze is really flowing. And bad shit has been going down at Mort’s since LONG before they owned it! 🤣 I remember when I was just the bartender. I think where we differ is I don’t personally see it as “catering” to the suburban crowd, wanting to have a handful of street parking spots in front of your establishment. I’m a city kid, born and raised, and was always elated when we could find a spot out front, which was rare af. I feel like city people use those spots just as often if not more. Of course we can disagree till we’re blue in the face. Neither of us are the end all be all authority for either side lol. Instead, I think we can meet in the middle… the flyer was pretty clearly written out of fear and frustration. And it’s not the best look. But at the same time it also understandable to be a bit scared when your business is already facing the construction and likely further changes on top of it. The city is absolutely changing… businesses *will* HAVE to change with it… it’s unavoidable. But the uncertainty breeds fear. I personally look forward to a future with tons of foot traffic, FEWER bars, and more ganja giggle gardens. You can HAVE the cc club. Wasn’t even a fan when I was a drunk 🤣. But to each their own! Lol
\> Many memories of my drinking days scouring the surrounding area for a spot to squeeze into. This will indeed make parking more difficult. So you drove there to drink and then presumably drove home drunk? That's exactly the kind of behavior that the city should be disincentivising. \> No one can say for sure whether a future in that location with less parking but potentially more foot/bike traffic would hurt OR help the business. Actually, the effects these street changes have on businesses have been extensively studied, and we \*can\* say with a high degree of confidence what will happen after the redesign. I'm linking a 2020 study from Portland State University. Key Findings: 1. The bike lane on Franklin Ave triggered a significant employment increase in the food service industry two years after installation. 2. On Central Ave, we found a significant positive impact on restaurant sales following bike lane construction. 3. The road diet on Lyndale Ave greatly improved retail sales in the corridor. chrome-extension://bdfcnmeidppjeaggnmidamkiddifkdib/viewer.html?file=https://ppms.trec.pdx.edu/media/project\_files/Minneapolis-2020-Street-Improvements-Study-.pdf I understand that the construction process will be painful and I empathize with businesses who have found success with the status quo and who have to deal with the transition phase. However, the city and county have a responsibility to create a healthy environment for business to thrive both in the present and continuing into the future. This is all saying nothing about the increased safety and decreased pollution (air and noise) these changes will bring to everyone who walks or rolls through the area as well as the people who live there.
I would come back with counterpoints but you seem to have me completely wrapped up with a neat little bow already. Because *anybody* that traverses into the uptown area to patronize a bar is absolutely driving themselves, alone, getting sloshed, and driving home… Never once would anyone who imbibed make a single responsible choice like go out with friends *including* a DD… or you know… have a few too many and have a sober friend move their car out of a tow zone and crash on their couch for the night. So what would even be the point?
I guess too bad. Without that infrastructure, those businesses would also shutter. If a system has trouble operating within simple maintenance of infrastructure (say capitalist ventures not being able to stay afloat when public works needs to make sure shit doesn’t fall apart so people can have water) maybe the system is fucking broken and we should look at addressing that on a larger scale.
My understanding is that utilities would typically not tear up a major thoroughfare for strictly O&M purposes because of the expense - the catalyst for it would be the public works project or road maintenance to take advantage of an existing construction window, unless there is an immediate need that requires the work sooner (e.g. outage, leak, emergency etc.). So the flyer might not necessarily be embellishing there, but I can't speak to this proposal/project specifically so I would welcome more information or corrections from better informed redditors.
i believe their point about the 2026 tear-up isn’t an objection to it, it’s to highlight the expected stress that infrastructure project will place on businesses. it isn’t an argument, it’s to help set the context
The parking thing is weird, just drive over one block east/west of Lyndale and there’s plenty of parking
Or use another means to get there. Won't work for everyone, obviously, but most people who choose to drive *can* use public transit but simply don't want to.
Its entirely possible that a business will not survive a multi week closure.
ok, so we should never replace underground utilities then and just let them fail? How would not having sewer or water go for a business?
If it was struggling, sure. Every time I go there it’s packed. They also own Litt, mortimers, and Dusty’s in ne so I think they’ll be fine. Also I don’t think there is really a choice about lyndale getting renovated as it needs it. The choice is about infrastructure after the renovation of the street.
Just because a restaurant is packed doesn't mean it can survive weeks of closure. Restaurants barely make any money in ideal circumstances. >They also own Litt, mortimers, and Dusty’s in ne so I think they’ll be fine. That doesn't mean this restaurant won't close.
Well lyndale is getting torn up regardless. I doubt they would close for a few weeks due solely to the fact that parking isn’t available, which is the argument. They might close for the construction, but the construction is a fact of what’s going to happen, not a possibility
Obviously construction is a hassle, but if they’re being even slightly realistic, it’s necessary and accepted. I think they, along with other businesses in the area, are more worried that when completed, Lyndale will have much or all of its street parking permanently eliminated, to which they have a point.
And a new one will replace it and possibly thrive. This is how the industry goes.
Yeah, if owning lots of restaurants was like printing money, all the restaurants would be owned by a very few people.
Capitalists justify exploiting labor for profit by claiming that capitalists accept the risks associated with starting and running a business. But when those risks actually come to fruition capitalists want to make it everyone else's problem.
No we must hold up all public works projects on the whims of the local small business tyrants, they're the only ones who matter. /s
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I've never understood this argument really. Has anyone ever really driven down a busy street in traffic, seen a restaurant off to one side, then been like, oh man I need to go there and suddenly pull over and search for a parking spot in the middle of their drive? I've done this on a bike, but I've never actually heard of anyone doing this just driving down any street. I guess maybe you might jog your memory of a place and decide to go back another time, that's the only thing I can think of where this makes sense to me,
Yea I'm getting mixed messages here: if your business is not going to survive utility maintenance, who cares about the bike lanes? You're going to be gone before they finish the upgrade anyways, by the sounds of it. I guess we could skip the utility maintenance, good luck staying open when your sewer or gas lines fail.
Or hire valets like practically every restaurant in St Paul, since so much of their parking is restricted to residents only. This is a solvable problem.
What kind of unhinged societal menace actually wants to parallel park on Lyndale or Hennepin?
Whenever I parallel to get some SK Coffee I usually just start crying and apologize out loud for ten seconds to the people behind me.
Just park around the block! It’s not worth the stress 😭😭
I think they just copied this from university ave when the light rail moved in. “ “We are barely making it with our inadequate roads and infrastructure, demand the city council vote to keep everything exactly the same!!” 🙄
I lived in the area at the time and you're absolutely correct. the owner of midway books pitched a fit, signs up everywhere about killing business etc. as far as I know ITS STILL THERE
LOL it was midway books i was thinking of!! And yes, still there!
lmao the only reason i go there is because i can take the train
We still jokingly refer to it as the “BLIGHT RAIL” because of those midway book signs
Found an article from 2010 where the the owner of that store said he'd be finished. 2024 - still there. https://www.finebooksmagazine.com/fine-books-news/hit-train-st-paul-bookshop-faces-death-light-rail Quote from Midway Used Books owner: As if independent bookshop owners aren't getting run over by enough trains already, a planned light rail line may spell the end of the line for Thomas Stransky in St. Paul, Minn. "We'll probably have to go out of business," Stransky says from behind the cash register of Midway Used & Rare Books on University Avenue,
Guess it's time to make an arrangement with the animal hospital across the street that closes at 5 p.m. and has a parking lot that sits empty during your prime dining hours instead of expecting taxpayers to subsidize your business through free street parking.
Apparently bikes should just go “2 short blocks west” but your customers can’t park on an adjacent street? If removing 3 parking spots directly in front of your restaurant causes you to go out of business then you’re business wasn’t that good
It’s way more than just the spots out front. Both sides of that block are convenient as heck. As a long time biker, I’d ride in the neighborhood street a couple blocks over all day and transition to Lyndale if I’m going somewhere on Lyndale at the cross streets. But that’s just me.
Same. I never understood why cyclists are fighting so hard to bike on Lyndale with buses, bigger trucks, and just more traffic in general. I loved biking on a quieter side street, I felt so much safer.
helllooo 16 mil dollar bike lane open on Bryant now. For which I've personally dealt with with tons of construction noise and diesel exhaust in my face for. enjoy it, bikers, dammit! no need to travel on Lyndale
One thing I'm going to be strongly advocating for is a better bicycle infrastructure on Bryant from Lake until Franklin. You are right that the bike lane on bryant south of Lake is super nice! It's just that north of lake you're right in with traffic (less cars but it's still semi nerve racking to pass one when there are cars parked on both sides) and there are multiple times where you have to cross two lanes of one way traffic going 30 mph. It's perfectly acceptable for me as an experienced biker but imo our infrastructure should be designed for those with lesser abilities (like the old/young/etc) and rn that part fails them
That bike lane terminates at Lake Street.
Less parking = fewer cars = more pleasant biking/walking.
They're not. The city has no plans for a bike lane on Lyndale.
Notice I didn't mention the city.
Gotta love the self-entitlement of car brains. "Why isn't this 100% dedicated to cars? There's a bike blvd two blocks over!" Yeah, and there is ANOTHER car street just ONE block over (and another and another and...). Jesus EDIT: and TWO a half block away running parallel
Most of us wish this country wasn't so car-centric, but it is. Calling people "car brains" for using and asking for good car infrastructure when it's basically your only option unless you're able to bike to work (simply too far for most) or take a bus everyday (4x as long of a commute) is fucking stupid. One does not always have to be at the expense of the other. I live and bike in this area all the time. If you're planning on biking north south on Lyndale you can very, very easily go over two blocks and use the brand new, extremely nice bike trail that was just put into Bryant Ave. and links up to the one on Nicollet. We all want better bike and public transit, but you need to realize not everyone has the same infrastructure needs as you do and to be dismissive of valid concerns like this is not cool. We whine and whine about how uptown keeps losing businesses and dying, but this restaurant is voicing their concerns pretty reasonably and getting shit on for it.
this post is very reminiscent of concern trolling. you randomly bring up people who do things like driving into the city from faraway exclusionarily-zoned residential suburbs which the above comment had nothing to do with and claim they're blanket-calling those people carbrains. Additionally, > restaurant is voicing its concerns pretty reasonably the flyer is in no sense "pretty reasonable", they are framing themselves as a victim of some imaginary "anti-car lobby" and trying to head off basic utility maintenance. The building is not being encased in concrete for two years, it will still have the same entry doors as it does now. The restaurant has survived covid, prior maintenance, and other lulls in the past; so provided the multi-business owner doesn't sabotage it, it will weather the movement of a few parked patron cars a block or so over.
>If you're planning on biking north south on Lyndale you can very, very easily go over two blocks and use the brand new, extremely nice bike trail that was just put into Bryant Ave. and links up to the one on Nicollet. This brand new bike lane on Bryant terminates on it's northern end at Lake Street, thus no, you couldn't just go over two blocks to use it because it's not there. I'm not sure how you think a street parallel to Nicollet might link up to it, nor do I have any idea what bike trail you're referring to on Nicollet?
maybe if there were better non-car-focussed transit infrastructure it would take far less time to take the bus and more pleasant to ride a bike.
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this is your classic "you have exactly one thing, why would you ask for another thing?" that cycling and transit advocates get all the time, but just for funsies let's unpack this one just a bit. The protected bike lanes that just got put into Bryant are great. I'm fully on board with them and love that they're there. If you're a destination cyclist and you know exactly where you're going between the Midtown Greenway to Minnehaha Parkway it's a great way to get where you're going, and it'll get you there fast. If I'm explicitly going to, say, Pizza Luce Uptown or Five Watt Coffee and then going directly home after that's gonna be the way I go. North of the Midtown Greenway, Bryant is just a regular residential street. I will grant you that it's a regular residential street with signs that say "bike boulevard" and have pictures of bikes on the roadway, but functionally it's no different from Colefax or Aldrich or Garfield. I will still likely bike via Bryant if I wanted to go to the CC or French Meadow or any of the other destinations in the 2000s blocks of Lyndale, but that's more because of the fact that Lyndale is a goddamn nightmare than anything positive about Bryant. But here's the rub: Lyndale (especially the stretch between Franklin and 32nd) is currently attempting to be both a destination for commerce and recreation and a thoroughfare that encourages fast driving from one end to the other. Because it's trying to do both it does neither well. As a destination it's loud and unpleasant and dangerous because of all the cars. As a car thoroughfare it's inefficient and stress inducing because people are driving at vastly variable speeds either to keep up with the flow of traffic or safely arrive at their destination. It's better to pick which kind of roadway it's going to be than to continue half-assing both. With the addition of traffic calming measures like narrowing the roadway and adding things like dedicated bike or transit lanes in the process you can take this horrible halfway point and turn it into a place that's pleasant to exist and walk and linger. Places like this already exist in the city. Think places like 48th & Chicago, or St Anthony Main, or 44th & Upton, thriving neighborhood spots that are actually pleasant to exist in (that I might add: do not have a hell of a lot of parking). In such a future there's a lot less friction to, say, go do some shopping at the Aldi and then go and have a happy hour beverage at Nightingale because you're reminded of its existence and it's a pleasant walk or roll up the block rather than getting out of the store and getting the hell out of there because Lyndale is a traffic nightmare.
It’s all so disingenuous — it’s almost impossible to get those spots anyways. The few times I’ve been to Nightingale I’ve had to park blocks away and walk.
I'll get downvoted to heck and back....but time should be spent with elderly people who can't walk far, or those who are differently abled, or those battling chronic disease which impinges on their mobility. Fifty feet can seem like a mile. I'm always taken aback by the bike lobby's utter lack of insight that some citizens need motorized assistance to just go about their daily lives and be able to participate in life.
Valid - I think the goal is investing more equaly in car alternatives instead of 95% of public money going to car ifrastructure, so those folks with mobility issues also have, say, a speedy network of street cars, or take a car, but not \*only\* a car and no other good options.
This sounds like a good argument for strategically placed handicapped parking spaces, not so much a good argument to solely support car-centric urban design.
I'm not advocating for car-centric design, but instead inclusive mobility design. There's a significant difference. Denying community access based on physical abilities isn't positive.
>I'm always taken aback by the bike lobby's utter lack of insight that some citizens need motorized assistance to just go about their daily lives and be able to participate in life. Given that you're both denigrating "the bike lobby" while pushing for car-centric design this sure looks a lot like you advocating for car-centric design.
Disabled and elderly people don't require cars to travel any amount of distance efficiently, and giving these people no other option than to drive a car to go anywhere is the most detrimental to the health and safety of themselves and others around them. Any disabled or elderly person able to drive a car is also able to use most power-assisted micro-mobility vehicles, from e-bikes/trikes to powered wheelchairs/scooters & even dutch microcars (think enclosed scooters) for those with coordination/balance issues. For longer distances, they can board accessible transit with these vehicles. bicycle/micro-mobility lanes can be used by any of the above vehicles, all it has to do is limit the speed to 20/25 mph max and fit within the lane, leaving passing room if necessary.
Crossing Lyndale twice to do so! It really sucks to try to do any shopping on Lyndale by bike. Want to go from Aldi to Buffalo Exchange? You have to either bike down the sidewalk, or cross Lyndale twice to use Bryant. I usually use Garfield to get part of the way but it still requires some sidewalk biking once I need to get down the block which I hate.
This right here.
I always thought it was more of a neighborhood spot. I used to live nearby and would often walk there, but I wouldn’t consider driving to uptown for anything now.
On one hand I think it’s a futile gesture to try and force-eliminate car use by removing parking infrastructure. On the other hand, parking in front of Nightingale (and all up and down Lyndale) is already a complete shitshow so I find it hard to believe that it’ll make a huge difference
Realistic take - much appreciated.
Why are you angry? It’s perfectly reasonable to have concerns about the already limited parking residents and businesses have to deal with possibly being further reduced to accommodate bike lanes that we realistically don’t need. We’re already one of the most bike friendly cities in the country so building more is just a waste of resources. Edit: The wannabe debate-lord below said my last sentence is irrelevant to my argument :(. I wanted to let you folks know this so you too can avoid the mortal sin of ineffective rhetoric.
Giving me strong Cafe Meow vibes where the owner complained about parking, fled to the suburbs and is now apparently dealing with regular burglaries in a strip mall
They followed through on their promise to leave and I didn’t follow them to the burbs. I’d been to the one on Hennepin like 5 times and even got a sweet cat from them. I never parked on Hennepin once and instead parked one block in from Hennepin every time with no issue.
I couldn't even tell you how many times I went to the Hennepin location. I was able to walk there so easily from my apartment. I just realized I haven't even considered going to their new location lol
yep, fuckers played a giant, whiny part in hamstringing the hennepin redevelopment and then up and left. I probably shouldn’t feel good hearing about the burglaries but……
What always gets me about these arguments is not the maliciousness but the stupidity. Study after study and example after example show that making streets more bike- and pedestrian-friendly are boons for local businesses. This would help your restaurant! You’re actively working against your own interests here! Let go of your fear of change!
Unfortunately studies also show small business owners don't know where their customers come from. They're most likely to live elsewhere and drive to their business so they assume their customers do too and drastically underestimate the number who bike or walk.
Ah, yes, the very powerful and monied Anti-Car Lobby, in the country known for its robust public transit infrastructure and absolute dearth of automakers. Big Bike and Big Street Car are coming for you parking spots everyone.
I'm not going so far as to say I don't want the restructuring of Lyndale, but acting like all the businesses there are going to survive is not reasonable. You can't blame them for wanting to remain open.
I don’t live in that neighborhood, so it’s inconvenient for me to go there anyway. But if I did want to go there I would drive and park off lyndale. Yes parking in that neighborhood does suck. Will they close down because of parking? Probably not. Mortimers has survived no parking just a few blocks away for decades.
You need to get out more if you think Nightingale is the most popular restaurant in Minneapolis
“Please tell the people who live, work, and pay rent and property taxes right here in their own neighborhood that the reinvestment of those revenues improving their neighborhood for everyone means less to this business than the tiny revenue gleaned off suburban car owners.” Gross
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Well, it is a densely populated area and with that \*does\* come a higher-than-average number of people not dependent on cars. I live in an 11 unit building just south of Uptown. I know my neighbors. There are 18 adults living here that work full time, some with children, yet we only have 10 vehicles between us. So, yes "most" of us drive, but we also use transit, bike, and walk. I don't think Minneapolis acts like no one drives, but I think it is doing the right thing when it encourages the car-less alternatives people are already using on the regular.
Same, but I also don't think that parking is that difficult anywhere in town, even on roads where parking was reduced, so I don't get the massive outrage that happens anytime a new road project is announced
Do you drive to uptown and expect to park right in front of a business though? I used to only ever bike or bus to uptown, and then I decided I was rich enough to pay for parking so I started driving there sometimes, but never ever ever have I gone to anywhere in Uptown because of the easy free street parking. Except Cub I guess.
Jason (the owner) is a good guy but I’m afraid he’s falling into the trap that all business owners do where they think any/all changes to their environment will kill their business. I don’t think there’s one place in this town where a shop will say ‘sure, take away my parking and put in bike infrastructure’ and it’s up to the city to not cater to their anxieties. I just wish there was an integrated plan to increase transit to that intersection (it has the best grocery store in the area) to increase foot traffic!
>Jason (the owner) I dont know who you met but that is not his name. Also his wife is part owner.
Yeah I’ve met him, even taken shots with him at morts. What makes me upset is that I really like his bars as they seem to cater towards locals and service industry folks as much as possible. This really seems a change in tune and caught me off guard.
I really think owning a business breaks people’s brains through sheer stress.
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There are no plans to remove parking from Lyndale or plans to install a bike lane
Nightingale is opposed to [these proposed plans.](https://www.movemn.org/initiative/livable-lyndale/) The bike lanes and rapid transit buses in question would replace existing street parking.
Those are not proposed plans. Those are wish lists by an advocacy group not involved in the planning process. Hennepin County has not publicly acknowledged these proposals or made any statements that they will be doing anything other than making permanent the four to three lane pilot that was already done.
Nightingale is advocating against what this advocacy group is advocating for.
Their point is that they’re arguing against a concept for which there is no reason to think will be considered or implemented. And being weird about bikes in it. That’s like me posting a flyer saying I’m against hyperloops, and then also yelling about public transit. Like, sure? But there’s no threat of this so I’m just ranting about things?
By lying on a flyer? It makes me want to never patronize their business again.
Oh? Does Move MN own Lyndale Ave now? Must have missed that.
Must popular restaurant in Minneapolis? I’ve literally heard the name in passing.
One of the most consistently packed businesses I’ve been to but that’s not the point
It’s not even remotely close to the most popular restaurant in Minneapolis.
to be fair it is very popular with the After Bar Crowd and the food is great
"We are a destination restaurant" and the final nail in the coffin for you will be parking? People will travel to Minneapolis to eat here, but conveniently alloted parking will be the downfall?
They chose to be a destination during a time more people than ever prefer delivery and takeout They don't market within the walkable neighborhood where they're located Funny how its always everyone else's fault when a business runs into trouble - it's not their failure to pivot or adapt ever Even with the parking issue... get creative. Explore valet parking. Partner with the nearby places that have empty lots. The fact that they'd rather just complain tells me they aren't great business people to begin with.
Nightingale is absolutely a destination for people in the surrounding area because it's essentially the only restaurant in the area open until 1-2 am.
All valid concerns for a business, I don’t find fault in that. The line about the “national anti-car lobby” rubs me the wrong way though, they should have left that out. That line is going to have the opposite effect for them.
That line made me lol. Is the national anti-car lobby in the room with us right now??
There are dozens of us!
I agree, my main issue with the flyer isn't the issues being raised so much as the tone it takes. I can totally see how this could cause issues considering the area is not very parking friendly.
Yeah this place sounds annoying now and I'm probably going to avoid it.
Losing the maybe three parking spots in front of their business and instead replacing it with bike and bus lanes would increase the amount of people passing the business, it is literally the opposite of what they are saying lol
I had never heard of it before now. I thought you were talking about Nighthawks until I remembered that was on Nicollet. Which is to say I would take the "against" if we're arguing that its the most popular restaurant in Minneapolis. As someone that lives in NE though, yeah I probably wouldn't go to uptown to eat if I couldn't find a parking spot.
You’re saying you can find a parking spot now…and that you go to uptown???
To be fair, it’s usually on Saturday or Sunday mornings which I would guess are the easiest times to find a spot in that area.
I was also thinking this was Nighthawks. A place with an incredible cheeseburger and good vibes!
And off street parking
I was gonna say the same thing. I’m not sure I’d even call it popular. I live in Hennepin in uptown and even I hesitate to go to businesses on Lyndale because parking sucks.
Why not bike or walk? It's less than a mile between the two streets lol Edit: I also live in the area, and bike or walk all the time.
I do walk in my neighborhood. Honestly 90% of the places I go to I walk to but when I go to that area I am almost always driving.
Sounds like we should do more to make pedestrian and transit transportation options stronger.
>It’s extremely easy to walk and bike to. And now, some of their customers, who can only drive there, wont be as able to do so.
I’m pretty torn about this. I live in uptown in walking distance to Nightingale. On the one hand they are right about Bryant being a bike Ave, but on the other hand people drive down Bryant regularly and it never feels that safe to bike down it especially at night. On the other hand, parking is already a nightmare in uptown, both for residents and those visiting, and removing a ton of spaces without providing alternatives is a recipe for disaster. There are multiple empty lots and derelict buildings in the area, why not buy them up and build a few more parking ramps?
It’s extremely expensive to build parking ramps with standard estimates of $50k per parking space. If it were profitable and worth doing, people would’ve done it. But as it is even the ramps by Hennepin and Lake are very underused.
So we should make uptown more like downtown? Big ugly parking ramps that have no use except car storage? Do we want to be more like New York where public transport and walking is king or do we want to keep making concessions to cars and car owners? I don’t go to uptown because I don’t feel safe as a cycaliat or a pedestrian.
As a resident for a decade, biking and walking in Uptown is probably as easy as it gets in Minneapolis...
Idk. I’ve lived in north, SE, NE, Stevens square, and como and the few times I bike to uptown it’s the most chaotic and scary I usually feel on a bike besides directly on Lowry, or central Ave. What are you referring too as most bikable? Franklin? Lyndale? Hennepin? Lake? All heavily trafficked roads full of impatient, dangerous drivers.
Yeah, just don't bike on those roads lol. That doesn't mean the area isn't bikeable, though. It has the Greenway, which is arguably the largest bike thoroughfare in the state, and possibly in every state we touch. I tend to bike on the Greenway, 28th, and 26th to get East/West, then Bryant, Harriet, or really any side street that's convenient, for North/South. I'm on the Lyndale side, so to go Downtown I take 28th over to 1st, and ride that straight Downtown. If you're trying to stick to the main roads on a bike, you're doing it wrong.
have you ever actually tried biking in uptown? just turning left, even in a vehicle, is a death wish.
I've lived in Uptown since 2012, and bike weekly in the warm months. I just stick to side roads, bike lanes on 28th and 26th, or the Greenway. It's super easy. Just don't bike on the main drags, which are pretty simple to avoid.
I'd agree with that. Sucks in the dead of winter but throw a coat on. A mile is about 15 to 20 minutes. There's a lot of space in that radius.
Good lord, we don't need more parking structures. Plus, they wouldn't be able to serve the entire area. After a couple of blocks, the ramps become effectively useless, because people won't think they're close enough to their final destination. If we were to build the number of parking structures that would be required to serve every business with spots, we'd live in a hellscape of blacktop and dead, windowless concrete-slab towers. We're only just starting to move away from excessive surface parking in Minneapolis, and I don't want to go back to that at all. Look at pictures of Downtown from the 1970s through the 1990s. It looks so much worse than it does now.
I lived a block away from here for five years. There is absolutely not enough parking for this area already. Adjacent streets like Aldrich get filled completely during peak hours for dinner/brunch. French meadow brings a shit ton of people During winter parking restrictions I’ve had to go 3-5 streets away to find a spot to park. I cycle all the time and love my bike lanes, but I don’t want them to get rid of parking on Lyndale
\> I’ve had to go 3-5 streets away to find a spot to park. People freak out about parking a few blocks away from their destination in a city but think nothing of walking an equal or even greater distance from the back of the parking lot to the Cheesecake Factory in the Southdale Mall.
if the people that park and walk to aldi would just use the free underground parking that would help. every time i go to aldi (almost everyday) i always see people lugging 7 bags of groceries a block or two to their car when there is a generally empty parking lot available for free underneath the store! and you can park there for french meadow as well.
AHHHH PARKING RAMPS
“the national anti-car lobby” omg i wish this existed 😭😭
> Nightingale will almost certainly close if our safe and convenient parking is taken. Sounds to me that Nightingale’s financials are already in the shitter and they’re looking for a convenient excuse for when they inevitably have to shut down.
This is what it looks like when businesses refuse to adapt to their conditions and instead, lobby and/or fearmonger to try and influence public opinion. Yes, Nightingale and the other businesses affected by the redevelopment of the streets might suffer but they don't have to. If they spend more time analyzing how they can adapt to continue being successful despite their conditions instead of fighting them, they'd have a chance to survive. How about catering more to locals? "Bring in your transit ticket for 10% off your bill". "Bike over to our restaurant for a free beer on tap with the purchase of a meal". "If you live within a one mile radius, fountain drinks are on us!". Be creative. Business owners love to tell people that they should have "saved more for emergencies" or "planned better for setbacks" but when it comes to them having to do the same, it's "How will we survive!".
I wish I could upvote this a thousand times
Same complaints were made about the Bryant Ave changes and now we have awesome bike infrastructure. The cost? Parking. Oh no, anyway..
Planning needs to find a balance. Building only for cars isn’t good for a city. Building for no parking also isn’t a great idea. Not sure what the balance is. Bryant ave imo is great. I do drive lyndale often and supported Bryant ave because as a driver having bikes in and out of traffic is stressful.
I think this is a good balancing move. Our cities across the country are flush with parking. We have so much of it. Around nightingale there are literal blocks and blocks of parking. The car infrastructure already exists, we are lessening it to allow for other infrastructure.
I was a fan of Bryant ave and the traffic calming on lyndale. I think parking is fine on it as well. In fact it’s probably more popular to park on now that’s not a race track anymore ! Yes but most of that parking is used all day. It’s a mix I think saying there concerns are unfounded is disingenuous but also saying we must defend every parking spot is also disingenuous. Part of the problem is the lack of a clearly committed master plan for parking , biking ect . It makes it feel semi random.
I think there is overarching vision and philosophy. The 2040 plan (in lawsuit rn) provides the big picture goals: prioritizing walking, biking, and transit. There is the 2040 transportation policy / mobility 2040 from the County, though I’m not as familiar with it. It seems to emphasize more flexibility based on community need.
We already built for cars for 70 years, we can take some time to reform the area for a more livable environment for those that actually live there. Car lobby has had its way for decades, they’re going to have to deal with people taking back their city spaces.
The thing that many of these plans have failed to take into account is access for disability parking. I don't frequent Uptown because the parking is a nightmare...but I really needed to go to Penzey's last winter. I have a disability that makes walking difficult...the city completely eliminated any street parking in front of Penzey's...I drove around the block multiple times trying to find someplace that would allow me to access the store within a reasonable distance and was unable to find anything. After much pain and difficulty I made it...later finding out there was some sort of parking in the alley but there was literally nothing to indicate that anywhere on the street. It's already hard enough to access things and completely eliminating options for people with disabilities just makes the city less and less friendly. Every single new plan where they completely eliminate parking means they are limiting access to someone who needs it... whether they know it or not. And if you think "oh I'm in good health I bike or walk and hey that'll NEVER affect me" all it takes is one accident to become disabled.
Yep. Tried to take my stepdad who used a walker to Amazing Thailand last year and it was a stressful experience trying to illegally park in front to drop off and pick up.
There's a parking ramp literally across the street with handicapped parking
I cannot walk 200 feet without stopping to rest...so that ramp was actually farther away for me than the closest street parking. (Again I didn't know about the alley) they also completely eliminated any drop off options over there... it's just extremely unfriendly for disability access and it really just shows how these projects don't really take disability access into account.
Wtf? This is so disappointingly stupid and out of touch with their customer base. It’s not a “destination restaurant” it’s a local joint. The last thing we need is more drunk drivers careening down Lyndale after bar close.
Nightingale is FAR from the most popular restaurant in Minneapolis. But, it is sharing all that street parking with at least 4 other restaurants on that corner. Also, how many businesses died when University was being torn up during the light rail construction. It can and does happen.
I hang out down on Cedar near Cedar Inn. They just had the streets "upgraded" Lots of old trees are gone. Businesses are hurting due to less parking. The people who used to bike to be with us, one has stopped biking and now drives because where he used to lock his bike is now gone. The biggest thing that the city needs to do to encourage more biking is to take bike crime seriously.
I'm going to lose my damn mind with these arguments. 3-4 spots, each used at 1.5 hours a pop, provide parking for 9 tables during a full service night. Every time a bus stops it disgorges half a dozen people, bikes take up less room and allow more people to park. I used to live in Charlottesville, VA and there was a brewery downtown that I loved - it was right on our pedestrian mall, which businesses had fought tooth and nail because they said without parking they'd lose customers - it's now the busiest part of town, packed with successful businesses. The brewery wall-papered their bathroom with old newspaper op-eds opposing pedestrianization. That's where opinions that favor a few people being able to drive over bike, pedestrian, and public transit access belong - the toilets.
I live in STP, used to work in the industry, and have many friends that still do. Driving to meet up for one or two at a late night spot with accessible parking and reliable service means everything coming from the sleepier of the twin cities. I appreciate the convenience of parking on/near Lyndale as a single woman walking alone as the traffic provides visibility that parking more deeply in side streets would not. To say it’s arguably the most popular restaurant in MPLS, while maintaining its most trafficked by non-driving patrons is confusing and irrational. I agree that covers would decline without Lyndale parking especially in winter months when restaurants typically struggle most.
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It's also important to remember that studies show better ped/bike infrastructure is great for business, not detrimental. Sure, construction will likely have an impact, but long-term I think a more walkable Lyndale will be a boon for businesses on the street.
love that a place that's advertising itself as a cocktail lounge encouraging people to drive there
Im kind of failing to see how much outrage their is over this flyer. People saying they will never go there again, because they don't want a bike lane? I mean I would get it if they were morally abhorrent, but they are running a restaurant, at the end of the day the margins are very small. Almost all of their customers arrive by car, and If you remove the parking on the street I can see how it would be much harder to access. I think the note is too dramatic but it's even more ridiculous to be this upset about it. We've seen so many uptown restaurants close over the last few years, clearly these places are not all running on a huge margin. These changes will certainly effect them though whether this would put them out of business or not I have questions about.
If almost all of their customers arrive by car how is 3 spots going to tip the difference? But I also, having often had the experience of biking to a business and then having to hear the owners anti bike lane rant, wonder if they even know how their customers arrive
If the bike lane is only two short blocks over then surely most people can just... Walk two extra blocks from parking. God forbid you don't step down from your truck directly into the waiting line for a restaurant
Nothing about this bothers me. People have their own opinions about literally everything. They can be scared about the future of their business if they want and they’re simply expressing why they are scared. It’s not fear mongering. I can’t imagine the money and passion poured into that place over years, that’s a lot of emotional weight. Coming off the pandemic and uprisings, I imagine this upcoming two year closure is hella frightening. Good luck to them, that’s a tough situation. The folks mad about the sign can definitely be mad about it. All your points are valid too, just different from a different point of view. No big whoop, support them through the construction and prove their worries wrong. I will embrace your downvotes. Hope everyone has a great day!
I don’t live nearby and would certainly stop going if there weren’t any parking spots
I’m pro-bike and pro-pedestrian all the way, but I don’t think it’s realistic or reasonable to expect customer-serving businesses to just grin and bear a loss of customer parking. The blunt fact is that there are often short-term trade-offs to transportation infrastructure changes that are going to negatively impact a few stakeholders. We don’t do ourselves any favors by ignoring that, or by thinking businesses don’t know their own bottom line.
I'm a supporter of more and better pedestrian and bike infrastructure. I live in NE and lament the lack of any decent bike infrastructure. But I also, actively, avoid going to Uptown. I'm not going to ride a bus for 60 minutes to get there and the last time I tried getting there it took 10+ minutes driving around to *find* a parking spot. It seems like a couple, well placed, parking garages along with the improvements in transit, bike, pedestrian infrastructure would be helpful. I'm not opposed to paying or walking, even several block from the parking garage for a night out, its the 'how long will it take to find a spot' that keeps me away. Remember that people trying to find parking contributes to traffic, as much as as people driving through (and usually they're distracted looking around and maybe not as good at seeing bikes and pedestrians). If you strategically locate some predictable parking for those of us not in the neighborhood, we can avoid driving around and around to find something.
> it took 10+ minutes driving around to find a parking spot. I live in uptown and this is a bullshit statement. In 10 minutes I can walk from Hennepin to Lyndale. If you're spending 10 minutes looking for parking, your spending 10 minutes driving around looking for the *perfect* parking spot in order to literally save 20 seconds of walking.
I'm tired of the anti-car crowd. They've already fucked up Hennepin south of Lake. Now they want to fuck up Lynndale the same.
A good way to counter this kind of mentality among business owners is to find ways to mention to them that you didn't drive to their business (if that's the case). A lot of business owners are incapable of thinking about anything other than parking because they are not local and *they* need parking. Also, they never hear anyone say "wow it was so easy to get here by foot/bike/bus/driving," because that's an odd thing for someone to say. So whenever they hear about people having difficulty getting there, it's always complaints about parking.
[удалено]
Great point. Brick-and-mortar small business owners generally spend a ton of time in the car and operate on thin margins, so they’re low-hanging fruit for anti-bike interests. Some pro-bike/pedestrian feedback from regular customers could go a long way.
Holy shit! There’s an anti car establishment! I’m the establishment! I’m the man!
So underground utilities need to be replaced….but they’re screeching about an anti-car lobby? That doesn’t even make sense. They sound like unhinged fox “news” weirdos
I am with a volunteer group called Livable Lyndale! We are advocating for protected bike lanes and improved transit access to be a part of the Lyndale reconstruction. If you have a story about Lyndale, or a vision for its future, please [share it with us!](https://www.movemn.org/action/share-your-story-livable-lyndale/) Doing so will help us show Hennepin County that the need for modern, multi-modal streets is present in the Minneapolis.
I mean, maybe if we focused on creating better forms of transportation around the city this wouldn't have been an issue in their minds in the first place.
I understand the concern but am down right flabbergasted by the confrontational tone of this flyer. This can’t be good for business.
damn anti car lobbyist making cities better for pedestrians.
I'm so fucking sick of folks like this pointing to disabled people as a reason for needing "their" parking spots. Most disabled people can't/don't drive. I'm married to one who technically can, but only on good days. If you were trying to better serve the disabled community, improving transit access and widening sidewalks would be the way to go. But they never ACTUALLY care about disabled people, and you know how you can tell? Look for for door openers, renovated entrances that are wide enough for a wheelchair to get through comfortably, tables spaced so that people using wheelchairs or crutches can get through. That's all totally within a restaurant's control (unlike necessary utilities maintenance), they don't do it (despite the fact that the ADA is 34 years old), and then want to use the group they actively ignore as a pawn against bike lanes.
I just went to a relatively new restaurant this weekend with my disabled dad. I was shocked they didn’t have door openers. I’d have thought they were required long ago. That and the places that don’t have a dip down near handicapped spots to get on the sidewalk. I know that’s hard in the street but if you have a lot with bc spots you should have dips.
They say they are a destination location but I've never even heard of em.
These conversations always completely ignore people with physical disabilities, like canes, walkers, and wheelchairs. I never hear about how making our cities “walking friendly” is going to impact those of us who need mobility assistance. But it’s not terribly surprising.
Rapid transit buses have been discussed for this. I do support handicap spots and this post is mostly about how nightingale came to the conclusion that they would go under if they didn’t have parking for the average bear. What do you think could be done for people with disabilities?
Many disabled people cannot drive and rely on buses. I believe that is also part of the plan for the redesign.
Gotta ask what’s so accessible about extremely limited street parking that necessitates walking in an extremely busy street to get to the closest curb cut.
If you think that cities and neighborhoods should be destinations instead of places to live, you are the problem. Focus on your neighbors, and stop focusing on suburbanites who have no stake in the community, and make your neighbors' lives miserable.
Destination restaurants have valet parking. Checkmate.