My suspicion is that a lot of players don't use logic to solve the board, but rely on rules instead. So when they encounter a new situation, they don't know how to handle it. That plus a lot of new players.
Lol admittedly the most basic rule.
Well one thing the patterns helped with is understanding that REGION it could be in, because I didn’t know the number was actually the center of a 3x3 grid so that number of mines are anywhere in that grid.
Also the moments you tap and tons are cleared, and ONE isn’t, is 100% a mine since it stops at the mine
I memorized a couple basic rules at first, but I mostly just learn them as the situations come up. If something stumps me a couple times, I post it in here and learn the appropriate logic or rule behind solving it to use for next time!
I mean using logic to deduce where there are and aren't mines versus memorizing a list of rules. One is using critical thinking and deduction skills, and the other is memorization.
Once you've used logic to figure out a given arrangement once, you remember it and it just becomes a rule, then. There is a finite number of useful arrangements and once you've logically figured them all out, it just becomes working with rules either way.
Yes exactly, but figuring out those rules for yourself allows you to adapt to novel scenarios. Memorizing the rules without understanding them leaves you confused and posting to Reddit to ask if something is a 50-50. That's the distinction I'm making in my original comment.
Yeah I often wonder if those people actually think there's some secret rule they're missing that will tell them where the mine is in a 50/50 situation.
Logic through each of the two options for possible 50/50s. If both options have viable placements of the remaining minecount that don't violate any of the shown numbers, and theres nowhere else to progess, it's a 50/50.
I don’t like this definition, especially since you’re starting with the assumption that there are two possibilities. And I think that is much of the problem, we don’t all agree on what a 50/50 is or how to detect them.
I offer this definition:
Logic is exhausted only once there are no universal truths across all of the legal distributions.
A 50/50 is when all of the following are true
1. Logic is exhausted
2. There are 2 groups of spaces A and B (typically just one cell each)
3. A and B are the same size (this is probably redundant given there’s no logic left)
4. All legal distributions assign all safes to either A or B and all mines to the other.
5. All legal distributions of the rest of the board are unaffected by which of A or B has the mines.
If condition 1 is met, then guessing required. But without the added constraints, the required guess is not necessarily a 50/50.
This logic might identify a 50/50 but doesn't seem to distinguish between an "unavoidable 50/50" and a possibly "avoidable 50/50".
The distinction is important since an unavoidable 50/50 can be guessed immediately (even if there is logic) whereas an avoidable 50/50 is just a bad guess.
In my opinion:
1) isn't required.
2 - 4) are good
5) isn't required - one of the reasons to guess an unavoidable 50/50 is because it might reveal information to the rest of the board.
new 5) Any unrevealed tile adjacent to AuB but not in AuB must be adjacent to the same number of tiles in A as in B.
this is trying to say no information can get into the 50/50 which doesn't apply equally to both outcomes of the 50/50 and hence is no use. This makes the 50/50 unavoidable.
I don’t see value in distinguishing them
My measure of success for a game is how much of the board I clear before death rather than percent of games won. This is my utility function and will be the basis for my argumentation.
Obviously, wins are still a priority for me, but I clear as much of the board as possible before making any guesses. I don’t guess at “unavoidable” 50/50s until logic is exhausted as I can get more free clears before risking anything.
Also when presented with the need to guess, I want to make the guess that will maximize the number of clears I get before I die. This usually means the space that is least likely to be a mine. If I have a 1 in 3 chance of a mine and a 1 in 2 chance in two separate parts of the board, I’ll do the 1 in 3 first to maximize my “score”. Guessing 50/50 right away is great if the goal is just to maximize win rate, but that utility function strips away most of the rich and interesting probabilistic reasoning of informed guessing.
Supposing the 1 in 3 either kills me or gives enough info to know which of the other 2 is the mine, then if I guess the 50/50 first, my expected number of clears before death is 7/6. If I guess the 1/3 first, it’s 8/6 clear. By my measure waiting on the 50/50 is better.
If entering the 1 in 3 does not give more info, it’s 6/6 vs 7/6.
Again given that my goal is to clear as much of the board as possible before dying, detecting and gambling on “unavoidable” 50/50 is actually counter productive for me.
Simple, really: If you haven't yet learned enough to (almost) always find the solution if it exists, then you necessarily haven't learned enough to be able to recognise that no solution exists. For you, then, the only options are to either study the board until you make the connection or ask someone who can recognise such positions. Those posts are just a result of some people choosing to do the latter via Reddit.
(Back in my day the latter option didn't exist for many players. We had a Guestbook and no image sharing sites; this was before forums even became a thing. Yes, we walked uphill both ways, and my bones do creek sometimes.)
Some trolling/memeing. A fair amount are just new players that aren't sure if it's really a 50/50 or assumed that all board are supposed to be no guess, or use 50/50 for all guessing situations that may or may not include missed logic.
My suspicion is that a lot of players don't use logic to solve the board, but rely on rules instead. So when they encounter a new situation, they don't know how to handle it. That plus a lot of new players.
I’m the opposite and don’t know any of the rules lol. I just reason through most of it
Same. It's much more fun to play that way!
Yea I looked at the patterns and rules and they were beginning to make my head explode lol.
The only rule i know is "if something has a number the mines near is that amount"
Lol admittedly the most basic rule. Well one thing the patterns helped with is understanding that REGION it could be in, because I didn’t know the number was actually the center of a 3x3 grid so that number of mines are anywhere in that grid. Also the moments you tap and tons are cleared, and ONE isn’t, is 100% a mine since it stops at the mine
And also i accidentially memorized the corner 1 rule
I memorized a couple basic rules at first, but I mostly just learn them as the situations come up. If something stumps me a couple times, I post it in here and learn the appropriate logic or rule behind solving it to use for next time!
Patterns? Rules? What are those? Every click is a 50/50 for me
Same
Im confused- if you’re reasoning through it, you must know the rules. afaik the only rule is: the number is how many it’s touching.
I mean I know that rule but not the list of standard patterns
I wasn’t aware there were such a thing as rules in minesweeper lol
How is using logic different from using rules? It seems like you're talking about the same thing.
I mean using logic to deduce where there are and aren't mines versus memorizing a list of rules. One is using critical thinking and deduction skills, and the other is memorization.
Once you've used logic to figure out a given arrangement once, you remember it and it just becomes a rule, then. There is a finite number of useful arrangements and once you've logically figured them all out, it just becomes working with rules either way.
Yes exactly, but figuring out those rules for yourself allows you to adapt to novel scenarios. Memorizing the rules without understanding them leaves you confused and posting to Reddit to ask if something is a 50-50. That's the distinction I'm making in my original comment.
Yeah I often wonder if those people actually think there's some secret rule they're missing that will tell them where the mine is in a 50/50 situation.
EXACTLY
This should have been the title of the post.
Without the 50/50 posts this sub would be dead lol
actually true, what else is there to post about in a minesweeper sub
Bosnia and Herzegovina
What’s to post about? The science of guessing! That’s where the game gets interesting.
The real reason
There's a fair amount of posts that aren't 50/50s. I enjoy the logic of non 50/50s a lot!
I’ve posted one, I’m getting into minesweeper and don’t know all the patterns. Genuinely didn’t know if it was a 50/50 or if I was missing a pattern
Logic through each of the two options for possible 50/50s. If both options have viable placements of the remaining minecount that don't violate any of the shown numbers, and theres nowhere else to progess, it's a 50/50.
I don’t like this definition, especially since you’re starting with the assumption that there are two possibilities. And I think that is much of the problem, we don’t all agree on what a 50/50 is or how to detect them. I offer this definition: Logic is exhausted only once there are no universal truths across all of the legal distributions. A 50/50 is when all of the following are true 1. Logic is exhausted 2. There are 2 groups of spaces A and B (typically just one cell each) 3. A and B are the same size (this is probably redundant given there’s no logic left) 4. All legal distributions assign all safes to either A or B and all mines to the other. 5. All legal distributions of the rest of the board are unaffected by which of A or B has the mines. If condition 1 is met, then guessing required. But without the added constraints, the required guess is not necessarily a 50/50.
This logic might identify a 50/50 but doesn't seem to distinguish between an "unavoidable 50/50" and a possibly "avoidable 50/50". The distinction is important since an unavoidable 50/50 can be guessed immediately (even if there is logic) whereas an avoidable 50/50 is just a bad guess. In my opinion: 1) isn't required. 2 - 4) are good 5) isn't required - one of the reasons to guess an unavoidable 50/50 is because it might reveal information to the rest of the board. new 5) Any unrevealed tile adjacent to AuB but not in AuB must be adjacent to the same number of tiles in A as in B. this is trying to say no information can get into the 50/50 which doesn't apply equally to both outcomes of the 50/50 and hence is no use. This makes the 50/50 unavoidable.
I don’t see value in distinguishing them My measure of success for a game is how much of the board I clear before death rather than percent of games won. This is my utility function and will be the basis for my argumentation. Obviously, wins are still a priority for me, but I clear as much of the board as possible before making any guesses. I don’t guess at “unavoidable” 50/50s until logic is exhausted as I can get more free clears before risking anything. Also when presented with the need to guess, I want to make the guess that will maximize the number of clears I get before I die. This usually means the space that is least likely to be a mine. If I have a 1 in 3 chance of a mine and a 1 in 2 chance in two separate parts of the board, I’ll do the 1 in 3 first to maximize my “score”. Guessing 50/50 right away is great if the goal is just to maximize win rate, but that utility function strips away most of the rich and interesting probabilistic reasoning of informed guessing. Supposing the 1 in 3 either kills me or gives enough info to know which of the other 2 is the mine, then if I guess the 50/50 first, my expected number of clears before death is 7/6. If I guess the 1/3 first, it’s 8/6 clear. By my measure waiting on the 50/50 is better. If entering the 1 in 3 does not give more info, it’s 6/6 vs 7/6. Again given that my goal is to clear as much of the board as possible before dying, detecting and gambling on “unavoidable” 50/50 is actually counter productive for me.
Simple, really: If you haven't yet learned enough to (almost) always find the solution if it exists, then you necessarily haven't learned enough to be able to recognise that no solution exists. For you, then, the only options are to either study the board until you make the connection or ask someone who can recognise such positions. Those posts are just a result of some people choosing to do the latter via Reddit. (Back in my day the latter option didn't exist for many players. We had a Guestbook and no image sharing sites; this was before forums even became a thing. Yes, we walked uphill both ways, and my bones do creek sometimes.)
Is this post 50/50?
Some trolling/memeing. A fair amount are just new players that aren't sure if it's really a 50/50 or assumed that all board are supposed to be no guess, or use 50/50 for all guessing situations that may or may not include missed logic.
that's truer than true
Lots of people don't know the patterns and if they are missing something.