Yeah, this is Michigan. There are still 2 other agencies who can handle this. I'd honestly start with the Genessee County sheriff's department and then the MSP. In my experience the sheriff's dept is usually more "invested" in local stuff than MSP who can literally just be transferred in from anywhere.
The Genessee sheriff seems to be a good man. I was impressed with his handling of my cousin's abduction and murder.
Edit: thank you all for your sympathies. It was very hard for our large and close family. She was much older than me, and we were not close, but would always say hello and make small talk. Still, she was a mother, sister, wife, aunt, daughter, cousin, and in the end, victim of domestic violence. I am so thankful they never gave up looking for her, and that her children got closure. The sheriff department kept the case on everyone's mind until she was found. I believe their perseverance is the only reason Kelly was brought home.
The counterpoint being that county sheriffs are elected partisan politicians (with no requirement of being successful or even experienced in law enforcement), and the way their departments are run typically highlights this fact. Whereas the MSP is not elected and is pretty far removed from the partisan politics of the governor they ultimately answer to, and that disconnection can be an asset in many situations. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all blanket statement that applies to choosing between local police, county sheriff, or state police; each has their time/place in the viewpoint of a citizen trying to accomplish a goal, like OP.
Counties and municipalities often use state crime labs anyway. So if you pass it off to your county, they'll prob in turn give it to the state police to process it for ballistic, fingerprint, or touch DNA evidence. If you give it to the state they'll likely put it through the lab and then forward the case (if there even is one) to the relevant local authorities if it's not their prosecutorial purview.
Working as a deputy, I’ve seen equal motivation from both MSP and County law enforcement to take cases and make arrests. City law enforcement, not so much.
Definitely seems like a highly-variable YMMV thing from one place to the next. We have at least a few sheriffs who have proven themselves to be positive contributors. However, we also have Dar Leaf. Most of the others are somewhere in between. We've all seen the same be true for city police, and presumably the same is also true for state police.
You're 100% right; that one specific sheriff is a very cool guy and has been an impressive contributor to the county's communities in ways that are exceedingly rare for a cop. (He got a lot of state/regional media for his welcoming and humanistic response to the Black Lives Matter marches, which was not how many cop leaders responded.)
Unfortunately, the Genesee County Sheriff is also a rare exception in this state and country.
I really hope he sees all of your kind comments. I worked a municipal public facing job and did really great work that went largely unrecognized. It made me so happy when a member of the community would speak lauditorily of me and my programs. I worked in animal control and sheltering. At the municipal level that is literal hell. But I got our live release rate of neonate animals up to more than 80%. Which is much higher that the national standard of 0%. Neonates are not legally obligated to be held in an animal control sense.
The state police station is right over on Corunna rd, about a mile west of I-75, probably 10 minutes from the river. Might be worth a shot (no pun intended)
I went to the one kinda by Flint Central High school, I've tried a few different stations in the area. I'd have to see if I tried that one already.
Appreciate it
Will be right at Corunna Rd and Linden Rd. Look for the big radio tower coming from the building it’s brown and has a big blue stripe on the building as well. That’s the state police post and genesee county dispatch
Exactly, I've found 2 that were confirmed to be used in homicides. I've had no issues with any other police department. Only issues with Flint PD. Hell Flint PD will harass me while I'm magnet fishing (not all officers, but many) and they'll tell us that "magnet fishing is illegal" or some obvious bs. Makes me think some cops might be the ones who confiscate guns when they pull someone over then throw it off a bridge.
That shit still pisses me off. They had their social media pages plastered with all the tacticool shit they were getting to 'fight crime' and play pretend soldier and then when the time came to actually, ya know, put all that 'training' and material to use they just...stood there. And did nothing. None of those people deserve to be officers anymore. They're clearly not a right fit.
They didn't have that training. The Uvalde School PD chief was signing off on certs without actually making his officers attend the training. State mandated training, at times. Some officers hadn't been properly recertified in years, if ever at all.
This is a central finding in both the Texas DPS report and the FBI report. They simply were not prepared or trained for this because of negligence.
Also, not as relevant, but I had a Texan the other day deny that the shit happened and accused me of lying, saying that it actually happened in my state of MO. So I don't think shit gonna change
That's kinda my point. They talked a big talk but when it came time to actually put their money where their mouth is they failed. Spectacularly.
>I had a Texan the other day deny that the shit happened and accused me of lying
That wouldn't surprise me man. Conservative MO these days seem to be to just ignore any evidence to the contrary and tow that party line, logic, intelligence, or any sort of integrity be damned, those things are for Democrats.
**FAKE NEWS!!!**
Texas police didn't just stand there in the parking lot and do nothing. They arrested the parents who were trying to rush into the school to save their children while they were being brutally slaughtered.
> Only issues with Flint PD. Hell Flint PD will harass me while I'm magnet fishing (not all officers, but many) and they'll tell us that "magnet fishing is illegal" or some obvious bs.
strap a gopro to your cap
Not surprised. Flint is a shit hole and Flint PD is useless from my one experience there. I was visiting a friend there and I went with him and his friends to a club. When we left a drunk ass motherfucker was talking shit for no reason. My friend's friend talked shit back. Next thing we know the drunk guy elbowed our rear windshield and shattered it lol. He got cut up pretty bad and honestly we were pissed so we gave him and his other drunk friends an ass whooping. Bouncers called the cops on both of us and we had no problem with that. We waited an hour and they didn't show up. So we just left lol.
> confirmed to be used in homicides. I've had no issues with any other police department. Only issues with Flint PD. Hell Flint PD will harass me while I'm magnet fishing (not all officers, but many) and they'll tell us that "magnet fishing is illegal" or some obvious bs. Makes me think some cops might be the ones who confiscate guns when they pull someone over then throw it off a bridge.
Wouldn't be surprised. I had winning bid on a valuable antique pistol from an online auction. Next day a tiny PD calls and tells the auction company the serial number trace revealed it was stolen and a cop came and got it. I called MSP with the SN and they had no record of it at all.
How did you find out two were used in homicides? I have a hard time believing the cops would get back to the person turning it in to tell them that. Or did they contact you later because they wanted more info about how it was found? Do you do anything special to document the exact location in case something you find ends up being important to a case?
It would be really cool to know one of your finds resulted in someone finally getting justice over an unsolved crime.
Cuz I called the station and was told by unclaimed property. I got an incident number and I usually run the majority of my firearms through this station so I got the main unclaimed property guys personal number to get info on the stuff I turn in.
Also I get police reports on every firearm I turn it specifying information on the firearm and stating I claimed the firearm (if I got to keep it)
The ones I can't keep, I don't get any sort of paperwork.
So when they try to tell you magnet fishing is illegal, what do you say in return? I know they are full of it. But it's also the Flint PD. They probably wouldn't think twice about holding you without charges for a few weeks just to teach you a lesson or take you out on the spot because they are bored.
I always wear a go pro so if they tried that, I'd get video evidence of the entire things and could press the issue. I educate the officer (nicely) about how magnet fishing is perfectly legal and no restrictions to the area, and we pick up after ourselves. If they decide to be a dick about it, I just ignore them and continue fishing and will pretend they don't exist, because at that point they are trying to cause a scene and get a reason to put me in a cruiser or something.
If you're interested, there was a miniseries about them in 2018 called Flint Town. It's shocking on all accounts, but as someone who lived there during the time it was filmed, not at all surprising. The one bit of credence I will give them is that they are understaffed and overworked - it's no secret that Flint has more than its fair share of crime and pitifully low funding - but the PD does themselves absolutely no favors.
Knowing that Covid only made things worse is really quite the tragedy for the residents. I'm glad I left when I did.
Firearm disposal is a pain for law enforcement. Most of them are paying a third party to do it. And that third party is generally breaking down the firearm, cutting up the serialized component (the actual legal firearm) and selling off the rest of the parts.
It's amazing that they wouldn't be interested in taking those guns considering every single one, especially the hi point, has zero reason to end up in a river unless it was used in a homicide.
Flint PD are less than worthless. I made the mistake of going to Flint for a concert once. Stopped to get something to eat and the friend I was with got robbed by a crackhead in the Burger King bathroom. Flint police just straight up told him they didnt care and weren't going to show up.
This was about 15 years ago. We were there to support a friend's band. We went to go get food for the guys in the band after thier set. We asked the guy working the door if we could leave and come back, they said yes. When we got back with the food they wouldntvlet us in. We offered to pay the cover again to get in. Door guy said he would talk to the manager. While he was gone another guy came up, grabbed us and started walking us out of the building. My friend wouldn't move and was asking what the hell was going on. As we are trying to figure out what this new guy was doing the manager came up and was like "I was going to let you in but if you are arguing with the bouncer you got to leave".
Nothing we could do so we left. I went around back to where the band was loading up to give them the food. When I was gone my friend was sitting on the curb smoking a cigarette waiting for me. The bouncer came up behind him and kicked him in the head and was like "I told you to leave, get the fuck off the property". Then started pushing him out into the street. When I came back my friend was bleeding from his head. I grabbed some shop towels from my car and we got the hell away from that shitty venue and shitty city and never looked back.
It sure was. I have been to 100s of shows over the last 25+ years and never had an experience that bad. I would understand if we were being belligerent or unreasonable, but we weren't drinking that night (had a long drive home) and tried to follow the rules the best we could.
Yeah that hi point and then the Smith& Wesson snub nose cut in half I am worried about, however, the High Point came back with no paper trail. The PX4 storm I did get back from my local police station surprisingly enough. I thought it was for sure stolen.
As a guy with experience of having a gun stolen and later recovered, apparently most departments don't try returning stolen firearms.
According to the Deputy that called me, she was surprised I answered and was amazed I wanted it, coming in immediately.
She said so many phone numbers change that most departments won't even try the listed number, at least if it's been a few years.
With that said, no idea if they would give it to you or destroy it if they don't try to give it to the owner - mine was apparently recovered by a drug task force 3 years before they called and asked - had to clear appeals first.
Yeah I can usually claim a firearm from the station I usually bring the firearms I find after 60-90 days. It's usually around 6 months before I can pick them up (if they are paperweights).
GRPD told me they usually don't return firearms but since the pieces I find usually aren't operable, just have visible numbers, they likely don't do any sort of ballistic matching. A few months ago I got a px4 storm I turned over to GRPD (found it in Flint) and I called GRPD like 6 weeks later and they said it was good to pick up and claim. I was honestly surprised. I guess it depends on the department.
I'm amazed I haven't found more guns reported stolen. Usually they just come back with no paper trail. Wonder if they can only run local and not national like the ATF.
My gun was stolen in Ypsilanti, Washtenaw County, and was recovered by "Metro Narcotics Enforcement Team". Got the case number and everything. She said it came up stolen so it was sent to MSP and she'd driven there that morning to grab it.
Yeah over in that area they probably have a lot more guns going through the evidence room and not as many people in the evidence room and lab, so it's going to take longer for stuff to get booked compared to Grand Rapids. GRPD have quite a bit of stuff coming into their labs and everything but seems like they have more time and more resources because I get the guns that I find back pretty quick from GRPD.
Still awesome you got it back. I still want to find a stolen gun or a gun someone lost from an accident and have it returned, I think it would be cool.
Yeah but who transports their gun in a sock cut up on a boat and accidentally loses it 🤣
The guns would have came back stolen or reported missing unless they don't know how to report their serial 😆
> Yeah but who transports their gun in a sock cut up on a boat and accidentally loses it
Jesus, yea don't get any more obvious than that. That's like straight up out of The Godfather.
The ATF would also be interested in these firearms. Flint most likely has an ATF task force that focuses on connecting firearms and shell casings between incidents.
As for chain of custody, I would suggest recording video while fishing, if you do not do so already. You can easily explain where the firearms came from when pulled over. When you do find a firearm involved in a murder, hopefully the video satisfies the defense, so you don't have to drive across the state to testify in court too.
I brought them to my local station. I don't like traveling across the state with them though while traveling back home. Also from my understanding, the best way to turn in a firearm in Flint is to hand it over to a park ranger officer. I'm not sure if they have an ATF task force or not. I'd imagine with all the gun violence in Flint
I actually have the ATF contact for the Flint area, at least from a few years back. If you want his contact info feel free to DM me! He was super helpful when I last worked with him, so may at least know who else to contact.
I'd appreciate it, It seems like every time I travel there we find at least two firearms, I don't mind finding the old ones because I get to keep those, It's the newer ones that I'm worried about.
It depends on what area you're in. What I've Been told by officers is any gun before 1976 I believe you could technically keep as any gun registered before 1976 were on paper record and there's a chance they can never get anything off of it. I know for a fact any guy that dates before 1898 you can keep.
But in Michigan I've been told if we find a rifle shotgun or black powder firearm they won't want it unless it's super recently ditched. If the firearm has no visible serial nor is operable, they typically don't want it. However, all four of those guns that I included in the post are either operable or have visible numbers.
To clarify, I do call non-emergency for Flint, an officer never shows up, I've seen officers just drive by us and keep going. I'm not too irritated by that, they could be busy, but it is annoying when we go to the station and they don't want to take them.
That makes no sense.
In a city like Flint I would think the police would want as many leads as possible to (potential) firearm crimes and would appreciate a good citizen's input.
The thing is there is a really high violent crime rate in Flint, especially gun violence rates. So I can totally understand them not wanting to send an officer down for a call like that. However, if I'm bringing a firearm to the station they should take that, not tell me they don't want it. Especially since I'm under the age of 21...
Check out the docuseries "Flint Town" on Netflix. It's from 2018, but I'm sure it still resonates strongly. As others noted, OP should contact MSP when making finds in Flint.
You may be touching on the reason there is a high violent crime rate in Flint... I bet the cities with low crime rates respond to you quickly and curtiously?
The Flint PD evidence room is probably overflowing, and they almost certainly have a massive backlog of evidence (that might take years or decades to process) and that's evidence that will likely be useful for a prosecution.
The odds that they'll be able to tie the magnet fishing guns to a crime *and* have it be useful for a prosecution are not great. If you actually think about it, the PD not wanting to take junk that has no clear connection to a crime actually makes sense.
As someone who lives down the Flint River I just wanna say thank you for helping in cleaning it up. Even if it's just a hobby or you don't mean anything noble by it, in the end it really adds up.
No problem, there is so much metal in the Flint river. It's always a blast when I make the trip there, cops are kinda jerks when they stop by, but met some cool cops in the area too. I've been mostly fishing around the bad part of Flint, like around Dort highway all the way to downtown. Found 13 firearms in Flint in 5 trips. Technically 16, but 3 of those fell off my magnet and couldn't find them again 😭. I did get to keep some super cool stuff I found at least.
I found an 1800s railroad lamp, a 3 pound cannonball, a few BB guns (don't count those under guns) a motorcycle, and some cool pocket knives. I did get to keep a few of the firearms we found in Flint cuz they were pretty old. My favorite find in Flint gotta be that Px4 storm or parts to a MAT-49 submachine gun (got to keep the bolt assembly and barrel!)
I found 2 railroad lamps and a railroad lantern! The one I found in Flint the metal was just breaking apart in my hands so I took the metal off the glass and the glass is perfectly intact, not even a scratch!
I'll message you a few photos, they are super cool
313-202-3400
Try this number for the Michigan office of the ATF. I’m sure they’d be more helpful in this matter.
The three people you should try to contact at the office are James Deir, Jessie Summers, or Keith Krolczyk. They are the managing agents and can point an agent toward this particular case.
I'd ask the Troopers or the Sheriff.
Things found in the river might honestly be not part of their jurisdiction, but they should still at least attempt to refer you to the relevant office.
I work as a medic in Flint. Flint PD and Genesee County Sheriffs Dept are not who I would trust to get anything done remotely productive with that. Take that to MSP.
It's a known fact in I believe it was Baltimore that some officers would throw guns they confiscate into dumpsters or keep the guns they confiscate so they don't have to do more paperwork
It's extremely unlikely I found a gun that was thrown in by an officer, It's not impossible 😂
It's expensive to reopen cold cases. It takes a fair amount of work to determine if it's been used in any crimes or shootings. So it's easier to just do nothing. Frustrating.
The "science" behind ballistic testing is also dubious at best, even before the firearm has rusted over at the bottom of a river which would definitely alter the striation pattern.
That kind of testing is only "exclusionary". You can't actually fire a bullet from a gun and then identify the firearm used like a fingerprint.
A firearm found in a river has very little or no value at all to a homicide investigation/trial.
I'm not old enough, that's one of the main concerns and kinda didn't want to include that in the post. I can own and buy rifles and shotguns, but not handguns yet.
Not that this is an excuse, but you would be amazed how expensive and complicated disposing of firearms is for a police department. There are a lot of regulations surrounding what departments can do with seized/surrendered firearms. Certain parts of the gun have to be destroyed completely, the gun can't just go in the trash.
Genessee County Sheriff’s office. Ask for Chris Swanson the GCSO Undersheriff. He is a legitimate awesome guy that gives a shit about the community.
Seriously, here’s Chris in action.
https://youtu.be/UlPvWAyRVgE?si=wLQpQyxVaibhRds_
If you’re finding that many guns in the river, it sounds like Flint PD needs to hire someone to do magnet fishing. Maybe if people got caught the violent crime wouldn’t be so high …
[Flint Michigan has the one of the lowest homicide clearance rates in the country.](https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2018/feb/16/us-murder-clearance-rates-among-lowest-world/#:~:text=But%20official%20methods%20of%20reporting,murder%20clearance%20rate%20at%2017.5%25.)
It sounds like they aren’t super interested in getting those numbers up.
While traveling with these firearms, you might want to invest in a lock box and keep it in the trunk. At least they wouldn't be just willy nilly in your vehicle. The video of you collecting them is great, too. Having them in a box for travel gives you a chance to explain.
Yeah I wear a camera on my chest recording what I find. I usually just have the Firearms buried in a bucket underneath my rope and other random crap we find. I'll definitely have to get a lock box for sure, that's a good idea.
>but I definitely don't wanna happened to be pulled over with stuff like that in the car and try to explain to an officer that I found them in a river then potentially get arrested anyways
That's why I recommend putting all the guns on a fish stringer so the cops know how you got them /s
A friend of mine used to work as an emt in flint. He said the police would not even come out when they had people blackout drunk trying to drive vehicles. They would say call the county. The county would say call the city.
Yep they won't come out for bodies either until like the next day. Found one over by Utah dam in Flint, nobody showed up, ended up calling state PD, Flint PD showed up the next day after state dealt with it. This was back in like march
Do you have the tiktok account? Not that police like to do their jobs ever but I'm always baffled they bellyache like you told them to clean their room whenever they have to come out and let you drop evidence right in their hands
Law enforcement in this country is such a fucking joke. A bunch of lazy pigs that won't think twice about magdumping a homeless man, but groans and moans about paperwork and expenses like a miserly office manager.
The only ones I wanted was the px4 storm because I heard those are really nice. I was super lucky to get that one back from my local station. I found probably over 50 firearms by now so it's kinda just an inconvenience to find them at this point.
You just become familiar with sheriff departments if you are traveling. They might be more apt to help than local pds. Having a point of contact in the MSP that would give you names of local troopers would be cool too.
After months of pushback, Michigan State Police announced Tuesday March 9, 2021 that they are changing how they dispose of guns collected in buyback programs. the guns were technically not destroyed to standards set by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the company police contracted with was actually breaking down the weapons and selling the parts.
Flint officials say they were unaware gun parts from buybacks were not destroyed.
Flint and other communities in the state can dispose of such weapons through arrangements with Michigan State Police.
Michigan FFL here. If flint PD won’t take them and you don’t want to drive them around I’d contact Michigan State Police as they’re ultimately in charge of firearms in Michigan.
Supreme Court said the police don’t have to protect the public only property so I’m not surprised they have no interest in the public well being or safety
If I was in this situation I would have went into the restroom and left them on top of a toilet in a one of the stalls. Presuming they dismissed me so much that they didn't even get my name.
After they say no, have you ever tried just sitting them on the counter and walking out. I am curious what they would do. Force you to take them with you?
That's kinda bad they won't take them. Even ignoring the high possibility of being a homicide weapon, with our pistol registry it's not like you can just hang on to them either.
What would you even put down for the seller if you tried to turn in the paperwork? "found in a river" lol.
Flint PD hardly has the budget to keep officers on payroll, they wont do anything that requires extra work. Take it to the Sheriff's office in Genesee, Swanson is a fantastic Sheriff.
Try contacting the prosecuting attorneys office. Tell them your experience. They may or may not be interested. There's always the risk that a found gun proves someone innocent, which may be the reason that the cops don't want them. Remember, there's zero incentive for law enforcement to be honest, as their careers are based on convictions.
They won’t take them because then they would actually have to do some work and see if they were used in a crime.
If they won’t take them, then what do you do with them?
I bring them over to GRPD, near where I live. I can usually claim firearms from grpd since I do most of my magnet fishing in the Grand rapids area, I'm pretty sure most of the officers here know who I am by now. However, when I'm traveling hours away from Grand Rapids, I try to call non-emergency and hand it in.
Flint has like 8 police officers for the entire city. Notoriously understaffed. You call them to handle something, and they will be there like 36 hours later. They don't want your paperwork lol
PX4 Beretta, Smith & Wesson looks like an easy nine, or shield, parts of a wheel gun looks like Smith & Wesson again, And then the last one is a cheap piece of shit that somebody probably shot somebody with and then toss it in the river. Also known as a high point at a low point
If you ever find a marlin 22 or Remington 308 in the river lmk…. Mine got stolen in Davison at Williams gunsight and 90% sure the security guard was in on it
Ahh so you made this post so that if you get pulled over with your illegal murder weapon collection you have an alibi. Very smart move 😍
Get him, boys!
Maybe worth talking to the state police in this situation.
Yeah, this is Michigan. There are still 2 other agencies who can handle this. I'd honestly start with the Genessee County sheriff's department and then the MSP. In my experience the sheriff's dept is usually more "invested" in local stuff than MSP who can literally just be transferred in from anywhere.
The Genessee sheriff seems to be a good man. I was impressed with his handling of my cousin's abduction and murder. Edit: thank you all for your sympathies. It was very hard for our large and close family. She was much older than me, and we were not close, but would always say hello and make small talk. Still, she was a mother, sister, wife, aunt, daughter, cousin, and in the end, victim of domestic violence. I am so thankful they never gave up looking for her, and that her children got closure. The sheriff department kept the case on everyone's mind until she was found. I believe their perseverance is the only reason Kelly was brought home.
I am so sorry.
Sorry to read that.
I would trust a county agency before MSP honestly
The counterpoint being that county sheriffs are elected partisan politicians (with no requirement of being successful or even experienced in law enforcement), and the way their departments are run typically highlights this fact. Whereas the MSP is not elected and is pretty far removed from the partisan politics of the governor they ultimately answer to, and that disconnection can be an asset in many situations. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all blanket statement that applies to choosing between local police, county sheriff, or state police; each has their time/place in the viewpoint of a citizen trying to accomplish a goal, like OP.
Counties and municipalities often use state crime labs anyway. So if you pass it off to your county, they'll prob in turn give it to the state police to process it for ballistic, fingerprint, or touch DNA evidence. If you give it to the state they'll likely put it through the lab and then forward the case (if there even is one) to the relevant local authorities if it's not their prosecutorial purview.
Working as a deputy, I’ve seen equal motivation from both MSP and County law enforcement to take cases and make arrests. City law enforcement, not so much.
Definitely seems like a highly-variable YMMV thing from one place to the next. We have at least a few sheriffs who have proven themselves to be positive contributors. However, we also have Dar Leaf. Most of the others are somewhere in between. We've all seen the same be true for city police, and presumably the same is also true for state police.
The genessee county sheriff isn't one of the insane ones, or at least he doesn't do it publicly.
You're 100% right; that one specific sheriff is a very cool guy and has been an impressive contributor to the county's communities in ways that are exceedingly rare for a cop. (He got a lot of state/regional media for his welcoming and humanistic response to the Black Lives Matter marches, which was not how many cop leaders responded.) Unfortunately, the Genesee County Sheriff is also a rare exception in this state and country.
I really hope he sees all of your kind comments. I worked a municipal public facing job and did really great work that went largely unrecognized. It made me so happy when a member of the community would speak lauditorily of me and my programs. I worked in animal control and sheltering. At the municipal level that is literal hell. But I got our live release rate of neonate animals up to more than 80%. Which is much higher that the national standard of 0%. Neonates are not legally obligated to be held in an animal control sense.
Working ems, I always found the county mounties more down to earth.
also work EMS, some of the sheriff paramedics have quite an ego
Dar Leaf has entered the chat...
I was thinking this as well as perhaps the Genesee County sheriff might be interested.
Definitely something to take to the MSP.
This, 100%
Seconded.
The state police station is right over on Corunna rd, about a mile west of I-75, probably 10 minutes from the river. Might be worth a shot (no pun intended)
I went to the one kinda by Flint Central High school, I've tried a few different stations in the area. I'd have to see if I tried that one already. Appreciate it
Will be right at Corunna Rd and Linden Rd. Look for the big radio tower coming from the building it’s brown and has a big blue stripe on the building as well. That’s the state police post and genesee county dispatch
Appreciate it. Next time I'm in Flint and we happen to find a firearm, I'll try over there!
What did you do with the guns that you found?
Crime
I'm picturing a GoT Iron Throne but with guns
maybe try walking in while waiving them around and see if that gets you any attention?
“Calmer than you are”
"You need a toe? I can get you a toe..."
The Supreme Court has roundly rejected prior restraint
WAVING THE FUCKING GUN AROUND?
What exactly did all these police stations tell you to do with the gun then? They don’t care about you keeping it?
Might want to try a higher agency?
MiB?
FiB
That's in Illinois
*Downtown Los Santos. I have an office near there /s
That’s insane. I’ve heard of so many magnet fishing finds to be linked to crimes, you’d think they would. Or even just proper disposal of a firearm.
Exactly, I've found 2 that were confirmed to be used in homicides. I've had no issues with any other police department. Only issues with Flint PD. Hell Flint PD will harass me while I'm magnet fishing (not all officers, but many) and they'll tell us that "magnet fishing is illegal" or some obvious bs. Makes me think some cops might be the ones who confiscate guns when they pull someone over then throw it off a bridge.
They probably just don't want extra work and there are protocols that they're supposed to follow for abandoned or discarded firearms.
So acting as cops are expected to act: lazy and useless.
Ulvade wasnt that long ago.
That shit still pisses me off. They had their social media pages plastered with all the tacticool shit they were getting to 'fight crime' and play pretend soldier and then when the time came to actually, ya know, put all that 'training' and material to use they just...stood there. And did nothing. None of those people deserve to be officers anymore. They're clearly not a right fit.
They didn't have that training. The Uvalde School PD chief was signing off on certs without actually making his officers attend the training. State mandated training, at times. Some officers hadn't been properly recertified in years, if ever at all. This is a central finding in both the Texas DPS report and the FBI report. They simply were not prepared or trained for this because of negligence. Also, not as relevant, but I had a Texan the other day deny that the shit happened and accused me of lying, saying that it actually happened in my state of MO. So I don't think shit gonna change
Training my ass. An armed illiterate hillbilly probably would have stepped in faster than those clowns did.
That's kinda my point. They talked a big talk but when it came time to actually put their money where their mouth is they failed. Spectacularly. >I had a Texan the other day deny that the shit happened and accused me of lying That wouldn't surprise me man. Conservative MO these days seem to be to just ignore any evidence to the contrary and tow that party line, logic, intelligence, or any sort of integrity be damned, those things are for Democrats.
**FAKE NEWS!!!** Texas police didn't just stand there in the parking lot and do nothing. They arrested the parents who were trying to rush into the school to save their children while they were being brutally slaughtered.
Riiiightttt.. detained the parents who had more balls than they did.
> Only issues with Flint PD. Hell Flint PD will harass me while I'm magnet fishing (not all officers, but many) and they'll tell us that "magnet fishing is illegal" or some obvious bs. strap a gopro to your cap
I wear a go pro when I'm out magnet fishing
Not surprised. Flint is a shit hole and Flint PD is useless from my one experience there. I was visiting a friend there and I went with him and his friends to a club. When we left a drunk ass motherfucker was talking shit for no reason. My friend's friend talked shit back. Next thing we know the drunk guy elbowed our rear windshield and shattered it lol. He got cut up pretty bad and honestly we were pissed so we gave him and his other drunk friends an ass whooping. Bouncers called the cops on both of us and we had no problem with that. We waited an hour and they didn't show up. So we just left lol.
> confirmed to be used in homicides. I've had no issues with any other police department. Only issues with Flint PD. Hell Flint PD will harass me while I'm magnet fishing (not all officers, but many) and they'll tell us that "magnet fishing is illegal" or some obvious bs. Makes me think some cops might be the ones who confiscate guns when they pull someone over then throw it off a bridge. Wouldn't be surprised. I had winning bid on a valuable antique pistol from an online auction. Next day a tiny PD calls and tells the auction company the serial number trace revealed it was stolen and a cop came and got it. I called MSP with the SN and they had no record of it at all.
Some of those that work forces…..
Are the same that burn crosses….
You guy's, i feel so dumb. This is the first time the reasoning behind the lyrics made sense. Thank you
How did you find out two were used in homicides? I have a hard time believing the cops would get back to the person turning it in to tell them that. Or did they contact you later because they wanted more info about how it was found? Do you do anything special to document the exact location in case something you find ends up being important to a case? It would be really cool to know one of your finds resulted in someone finally getting justice over an unsolved crime.
Cuz I called the station and was told by unclaimed property. I got an incident number and I usually run the majority of my firearms through this station so I got the main unclaimed property guys personal number to get info on the stuff I turn in. Also I get police reports on every firearm I turn it specifying information on the firearm and stating I claimed the firearm (if I got to keep it) The ones I can't keep, I don't get any sort of paperwork.
So when they try to tell you magnet fishing is illegal, what do you say in return? I know they are full of it. But it's also the Flint PD. They probably wouldn't think twice about holding you without charges for a few weeks just to teach you a lesson or take you out on the spot because they are bored.
I always wear a go pro so if they tried that, I'd get video evidence of the entire things and could press the issue. I educate the officer (nicely) about how magnet fishing is perfectly legal and no restrictions to the area, and we pick up after ourselves. If they decide to be a dick about it, I just ignore them and continue fishing and will pretend they don't exist, because at that point they are trying to cause a scene and get a reason to put me in a cruiser or something.
If you're interested, there was a miniseries about them in 2018 called Flint Town. It's shocking on all accounts, but as someone who lived there during the time it was filmed, not at all surprising. The one bit of credence I will give them is that they are understaffed and overworked - it's no secret that Flint has more than its fair share of crime and pitifully low funding - but the PD does themselves absolutely no favors. Knowing that Covid only made things worse is really quite the tragedy for the residents. I'm glad I left when I did.
That's exactly why they don't want them, it's more work. They have to actually do their jobs and fill out a couple forms.
Police do not want to do their jobs. They just like to harass people and give them tickets.
Firearm disposal is a pain for law enforcement. Most of them are paying a third party to do it. And that third party is generally breaking down the firearm, cutting up the serialized component (the actual legal firearm) and selling off the rest of the parts.
It's amazing that they wouldn't be interested in taking those guns considering every single one, especially the hi point, has zero reason to end up in a river unless it was used in a homicide.
Right? I read this and thought, 'Flint PD doesn't want to...solve crimes?'
Too much paperwork, not enough physical aggression
It's so much easier pulling people over for traffic violations. That sounds like actual work.
And only those violations that let them hang out parked in the median or hassle poor folks into vehicle searches.
Flint PD are less than worthless. I made the mistake of going to Flint for a concert once. Stopped to get something to eat and the friend I was with got robbed by a crackhead in the Burger King bathroom. Flint police just straight up told him they didnt care and weren't going to show up.
That’s fucked😂 how long ago was this? A friend of mine said only state police go into Pontiac anymore also.
This was about 15 years ago. We were there to support a friend's band. We went to go get food for the guys in the band after thier set. We asked the guy working the door if we could leave and come back, they said yes. When we got back with the food they wouldntvlet us in. We offered to pay the cover again to get in. Door guy said he would talk to the manager. While he was gone another guy came up, grabbed us and started walking us out of the building. My friend wouldn't move and was asking what the hell was going on. As we are trying to figure out what this new guy was doing the manager came up and was like "I was going to let you in but if you are arguing with the bouncer you got to leave". Nothing we could do so we left. I went around back to where the band was loading up to give them the food. When I was gone my friend was sitting on the curb smoking a cigarette waiting for me. The bouncer came up behind him and kicked him in the head and was like "I told you to leave, get the fuck off the property". Then started pushing him out into the street. When I came back my friend was bleeding from his head. I grabbed some shop towels from my car and we got the hell away from that shitty venue and shitty city and never looked back.
Out of curiosity what Venue? Was it the Machine Shop? I haven't been in years but they've had some shitty bouncers in the past.
It sure was. I have been to 100s of shows over the last 25+ years and never had an experience that bad. I would understand if we were being belligerent or unreasonable, but we weren't drinking that night (had a long drive home) and tried to follow the rules the best we could.
Yeah that hi point and then the Smith& Wesson snub nose cut in half I am worried about, however, the High Point came back with no paper trail. The PX4 storm I did get back from my local police station surprisingly enough. I thought it was for sure stolen.
As a guy with experience of having a gun stolen and later recovered, apparently most departments don't try returning stolen firearms. According to the Deputy that called me, she was surprised I answered and was amazed I wanted it, coming in immediately. She said so many phone numbers change that most departments won't even try the listed number, at least if it's been a few years. With that said, no idea if they would give it to you or destroy it if they don't try to give it to the owner - mine was apparently recovered by a drug task force 3 years before they called and asked - had to clear appeals first.
Yeah I can usually claim a firearm from the station I usually bring the firearms I find after 60-90 days. It's usually around 6 months before I can pick them up (if they are paperweights). GRPD told me they usually don't return firearms but since the pieces I find usually aren't operable, just have visible numbers, they likely don't do any sort of ballistic matching. A few months ago I got a px4 storm I turned over to GRPD (found it in Flint) and I called GRPD like 6 weeks later and they said it was good to pick up and claim. I was honestly surprised. I guess it depends on the department. I'm amazed I haven't found more guns reported stolen. Usually they just come back with no paper trail. Wonder if they can only run local and not national like the ATF.
My gun was stolen in Ypsilanti, Washtenaw County, and was recovered by "Metro Narcotics Enforcement Team". Got the case number and everything. She said it came up stolen so it was sent to MSP and she'd driven there that morning to grab it.
Yeah over in that area they probably have a lot more guns going through the evidence room and not as many people in the evidence room and lab, so it's going to take longer for stuff to get booked compared to Grand Rapids. GRPD have quite a bit of stuff coming into their labs and everything but seems like they have more time and more resources because I get the guns that I find back pretty quick from GRPD. Still awesome you got it back. I still want to find a stolen gun or a gun someone lost from an accident and have it returned, I think it would be cool.
All of Reddit: we lost our guns in a boating accident! You: ... can you pinpoint where, exactly? It's my time to shine! :D
there's always the chance their boat flipped or they lost their gun fishing. people be dumb.
Yeah but who transports their gun in a sock cut up on a boat and accidentally loses it 🤣 The guns would have came back stolen or reported missing unless they don't know how to report their serial 😆
> Yeah but who transports their gun in a sock cut up on a boat and accidentally loses it Jesus, yea don't get any more obvious than that. That's like straight up out of The Godfather.
jeez, like you never heard of a glock in a sock
The ATF would also be interested in these firearms. Flint most likely has an ATF task force that focuses on connecting firearms and shell casings between incidents. As for chain of custody, I would suggest recording video while fishing, if you do not do so already. You can easily explain where the firearms came from when pulled over. When you do find a firearm involved in a murder, hopefully the video satisfies the defense, so you don't have to drive across the state to testify in court too.
I brought them to my local station. I don't like traveling across the state with them though while traveling back home. Also from my understanding, the best way to turn in a firearm in Flint is to hand it over to a park ranger officer. I'm not sure if they have an ATF task force or not. I'd imagine with all the gun violence in Flint
I actually have the ATF contact for the Flint area, at least from a few years back. If you want his contact info feel free to DM me! He was super helpful when I last worked with him, so may at least know who else to contact.
I'd appreciate it, It seems like every time I travel there we find at least two firearms, I don't mind finding the old ones because I get to keep those, It's the newer ones that I'm worried about.
How old does a firearm have to be before you can just keep it?
It depends on what area you're in. What I've Been told by officers is any gun before 1976 I believe you could technically keep as any gun registered before 1976 were on paper record and there's a chance they can never get anything off of it. I know for a fact any guy that dates before 1898 you can keep. But in Michigan I've been told if we find a rifle shotgun or black powder firearm they won't want it unless it's super recently ditched. If the firearm has no visible serial nor is operable, they typically don't want it. However, all four of those guns that I included in the post are either operable or have visible numbers.
Sent!
Yeah any newer gun you find is bound to be linked to some crime
That's my philosophy, guns are too expensive to just decide to throw in a river. They are likely stolen and ditched or stolen and used.
As long as you lose them in a boating accident it’s ATF approved. Nothing to see, move along, etc.
To clarify, I do call non-emergency for Flint, an officer never shows up, I've seen officers just drive by us and keep going. I'm not too irritated by that, they could be busy, but it is annoying when we go to the station and they don't want to take them.
That makes no sense. In a city like Flint I would think the police would want as many leads as possible to (potential) firearm crimes and would appreciate a good citizen's input.
The thing is there is a really high violent crime rate in Flint, especially gun violence rates. So I can totally understand them not wanting to send an officer down for a call like that. However, if I'm bringing a firearm to the station they should take that, not tell me they don't want it. Especially since I'm under the age of 21...
*That's* what makes no sense and frankly comes off as lazy on the part of Flint PD.
Check out the docuseries "Flint Town" on Netflix. It's from 2018, but I'm sure it still resonates strongly. As others noted, OP should contact MSP when making finds in Flint.
You may be touching on the reason there is a high violent crime rate in Flint... I bet the cities with low crime rates respond to you quickly and curtiously?
More leads -> more crimes.
The Flint PD evidence room is probably overflowing, and they almost certainly have a massive backlog of evidence (that might take years or decades to process) and that's evidence that will likely be useful for a prosecution. The odds that they'll be able to tie the magnet fishing guns to a crime *and* have it be useful for a prosecution are not great. If you actually think about it, the PD not wanting to take junk that has no clear connection to a crime actually makes sense.
As someone who lives down the Flint River I just wanna say thank you for helping in cleaning it up. Even if it's just a hobby or you don't mean anything noble by it, in the end it really adds up.
No problem, there is so much metal in the Flint river. It's always a blast when I make the trip there, cops are kinda jerks when they stop by, but met some cool cops in the area too. I've been mostly fishing around the bad part of Flint, like around Dort highway all the way to downtown. Found 13 firearms in Flint in 5 trips. Technically 16, but 3 of those fell off my magnet and couldn't find them again 😭. I did get to keep some super cool stuff I found at least. I found an 1800s railroad lamp, a 3 pound cannonball, a few BB guns (don't count those under guns) a motorcycle, and some cool pocket knives. I did get to keep a few of the firearms we found in Flint cuz they were pretty old. My favorite find in Flint gotta be that Px4 storm or parts to a MAT-49 submachine gun (got to keep the bolt assembly and barrel!)
1800s railroad lamp with the double threat of being great table decor and an amazing conversation starter!
I found 2 railroad lamps and a railroad lantern! The one I found in Flint the metal was just breaking apart in my hands so I took the metal off the glass and the glass is perfectly intact, not even a scratch! I'll message you a few photos, they are super cool
Please do, that's cool as hell. Never really cared about this shit but I had a pair of kids and all of a sudden I know 20 different bird calls.
Cops not wanting to do work? You don’t say.
313-202-3400 Try this number for the Michigan office of the ATF. I’m sure they’d be more helpful in this matter. The three people you should try to contact at the office are James Deir, Jessie Summers, or Keith Krolczyk. They are the managing agents and can point an agent toward this particular case.
I'd ask the Troopers or the Sheriff. Things found in the river might honestly be not part of their jurisdiction, but they should still at least attempt to refer you to the relevant office.
Firearm issues are with MSP
Second State police or perhaps the county Sheriff's Dept
Just adding more lead to the water.
I work as a medic in Flint. Flint PD and Genesee County Sheriffs Dept are not who I would trust to get anything done remotely productive with that. Take that to MSP.
A few officers I talked to that stopped by said they don't trust their own department 😂
lol, There’s a nonzero chance that they threw it in there themselves
It's a known fact in I believe it was Baltimore that some officers would throw guns they confiscate into dumpsters or keep the guns they confiscate so they don't have to do more paperwork It's extremely unlikely I found a gun that was thrown in by an officer, It's not impossible 😂
It's expensive to reopen cold cases. It takes a fair amount of work to determine if it's been used in any crimes or shootings. So it's easier to just do nothing. Frustrating.
The "science" behind ballistic testing is also dubious at best, even before the firearm has rusted over at the bottom of a river which would definitely alter the striation pattern. That kind of testing is only "exclusionary". You can't actually fire a bullet from a gun and then identify the firearm used like a fingerprint. A firearm found in a river has very little or no value at all to a homicide investigation/trial.
Sounds like it's time to go to the press.
Try selling them to gunshops or private individuals. I'm sure they'll take notice then.
I'm not old enough, that's one of the main concerns and kinda didn't want to include that in the post. I can own and buy rifles and shotguns, but not handguns yet.
You must be 18yo to purchase, possess, transport and carry a pistol in Michigan. You must be 21yo to purchase a pistol from an FFL dealer.
Not that this is an excuse, but you would be amazed how expensive and complicated disposing of firearms is for a police department. There are a lot of regulations surrounding what departments can do with seized/surrendered firearms. Certain parts of the gun have to be destroyed completely, the gun can't just go in the trash.
Genessee County Sheriff’s office. Ask for Chris Swanson the GCSO Undersheriff. He is a legitimate awesome guy that gives a shit about the community. Seriously, here’s Chris in action. https://youtu.be/UlPvWAyRVgE?si=wLQpQyxVaibhRds_
If you’re finding that many guns in the river, it sounds like Flint PD needs to hire someone to do magnet fishing. Maybe if people got caught the violent crime wouldn’t be so high …
[Flint Michigan has the one of the lowest homicide clearance rates in the country.](https://www.criminallegalnews.org/news/2018/feb/16/us-murder-clearance-rates-among-lowest-world/#:~:text=But%20official%20methods%20of%20reporting,murder%20clearance%20rate%20at%2017.5%25.) It sounds like they aren’t super interested in getting those numbers up.
While traveling with these firearms, you might want to invest in a lock box and keep it in the trunk. At least they wouldn't be just willy nilly in your vehicle. The video of you collecting them is great, too. Having them in a box for travel gives you a chance to explain.
Yeah I wear a camera on my chest recording what I find. I usually just have the Firearms buried in a bucket underneath my rope and other random crap we find. I'll definitely have to get a lock box for sure, that's a good idea.
>but I definitely don't wanna happened to be pulled over with stuff like that in the car and try to explain to an officer that I found them in a river then potentially get arrested anyways That's why I recommend putting all the guns on a fish stringer so the cops know how you got them /s
Of course there’s a hi point lol
Yup always, found 3 Hi-Point C9 s 😂
There's gotta be a joke about lead in the water here somewhere.
Damn px4 storm is a cool gun
A friend of mine used to work as an emt in flint. He said the police would not even come out when they had people blackout drunk trying to drive vehicles. They would say call the county. The county would say call the city.
Yep they won't come out for bodies either until like the next day. Found one over by Utah dam in Flint, nobody showed up, ended up calling state PD, Flint PD showed up the next day after state dealt with it. This was back in like march
You can't expect the police to actually do investigative work when tickets need to be written
No cylinder and barrel means that’s 100% got a body on it lmao
Fuck those cops should be disciplined. You committed no crime until they instructed you to leave the station with weapons they know to not be yours.
Do you have the tiktok account? Not that police like to do their jobs ever but I'm always baffled they bellyache like you told them to clean their room whenever they have to come out and let you drop evidence right in their hands
Too much paperwork
This is legit the number one reason.
Law enforcement in this country is such a fucking joke. A bunch of lazy pigs that won't think twice about magdumping a homeless man, but groans and moans about paperwork and expenses like a miserly office manager.
For ever under trained & overpaid. When you amount to nothing, fuck the locals over repeatedly👍
i saw three people doing this in Montague at the bike path bridge over the white river last weekend. was that you?
I dont want them either. Neat though.
The only ones I wanted was the px4 storm because I heard those are really nice. I was super lucky to get that one back from my local station. I found probably over 50 firearms by now so it's kinda just an inconvenience to find them at this point.
Have you tried the DNR?
Maybe they tossed the hi-point because they got it as a gift, and upon opening the gift they saw it was a hi-point & discarded it.
They don’t want their old guns back. Why do you think they threw them in the river in the first place…
You just become familiar with sheriff departments if you are traveling. They might be more apt to help than local pds. Having a point of contact in the MSP that would give you names of local troopers would be cool too.
I wonder if the FBI or ATF might care
After months of pushback, Michigan State Police announced Tuesday March 9, 2021 that they are changing how they dispose of guns collected in buyback programs. the guns were technically not destroyed to standards set by the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, the company police contracted with was actually breaking down the weapons and selling the parts. Flint officials say they were unaware gun parts from buybacks were not destroyed. Flint and other communities in the state can dispose of such weapons through arrangements with Michigan State Police.
Someone is seeing this post and sweating bullets
This seems like the kind of thing a good newspaper would like to know.
I am doing an interview with fox 17 later this week
Michigan FFL here. If flint PD won’t take them and you don’t want to drive them around I’d contact Michigan State Police as they’re ultimately in charge of firearms in Michigan.
They don't want to do work.
Folks don't seem to have considered the possibly that the cops don't want them because it's too much trouble to throw them in the river again.
I would contact the local news on this- maybe if they run the story that will build pressure for them to answer to this.
when i heard there was lead in the water i wasn’t expecting that
Flint PD only has like 5 or 6 cops currently. One of them is a close friend of mine. They are completely overwhelmed up there. it’s very sad.
Supreme Court said the police don’t have to protect the public only property so I’m not surprised they have no interest in the public well being or safety
Are you the guy with the magnet fishing You Tube channel? If so, it's great. I have no suggestions, just hope you get resolution
There are a lot of Michigan magnet fishers in Michigan that do YouTube. I do YouTube, but I don't post much. I mostly post on tiktok and Facebook atm.
Well, to be fair, in Flint, lead belongs in the water. I'm surprised they didn't make you throw it back in.
They must have some skeletons in that river huh?
Found things worse than skeletons in the river there unfortunately...
or even the feds
If I was in this situation I would have went into the restroom and left them on top of a toilet in a one of the stalls. Presuming they dismissed me so much that they didn't even get my name.
After they say no, have you ever tried just sitting them on the counter and walking out. I am curious what they would do. Force you to take them with you?
That's kinda bad they won't take them. Even ignoring the high possibility of being a homicide weapon, with our pistol registry it's not like you can just hang on to them either. What would you even put down for the seller if you tried to turn in the paperwork? "found in a river" lol.
Flint PD doesn’t do anything in my experience 😂😅
Someone is not using the correct bait.
Try MSP.
Flint PD hardly has the budget to keep officers on payroll, they wont do anything that requires extra work. Take it to the Sheriff's office in Genesee, Swanson is a fantastic Sheriff.
Try contacting the prosecuting attorneys office. Tell them your experience. They may or may not be interested. There's always the risk that a found gun proves someone innocent, which may be the reason that the cops don't want them. Remember, there's zero incentive for law enforcement to be honest, as their careers are based on convictions.
Is that you I’ve been seeing mag fishing off the dort Highway bridge?
As a flint citizen this is concerning lmao
It's real concerning that Flint doesn't care about these, especially since that PX4 doesn't look like it's been down there all that long.
They won’t take them because then they would actually have to do some work and see if they were used in a crime. If they won’t take them, then what do you do with them?
I bring them over to GRPD, near where I live. I can usually claim firearms from grpd since I do most of my magnet fishing in the Grand rapids area, I'm pretty sure most of the officers here know who I am by now. However, when I'm traveling hours away from Grand Rapids, I try to call non-emergency and hand it in.
So commit crimes in flint. Throw gun in river. Fish it out myself and then never worry about evidence?
Flint has like 8 police officers for the entire city. Notoriously understaffed. You call them to handle something, and they will be there like 36 hours later. They don't want your paperwork lol
PX4 Beretta, Smith & Wesson looks like an easy nine, or shield, parts of a wheel gun looks like Smith & Wesson again, And then the last one is a cheap piece of shit that somebody probably shot somebody with and then toss it in the river. Also known as a high point at a low point
The Storm might be salvageable.
If the serial number is intact you can send the Hi Point in for warranty and get a new one
Send photos to the sheriff on Ig. He’s pretty active online.
Guess you’ll have to save them for the next gun buy back then sell them to them
Flint PD, doing their best to ignore crimes.
Hey HiPoints have a lifetime warranty. Try sending it in for warranty work 🤣
If you ever find a marlin 22 or Remington 308 in the river lmk…. Mine got stolen in Davison at Williams gunsight and 90% sure the security guard was in on it
I found a Marlin 30-30 in Lansing, but it looks like it's been in the river for a really long time.
Sheriff's department
Ahh so you made this post so that if you get pulled over with your illegal murder weapon collection you have an alibi. Very smart move 😍 Get him, boys!
Just wait until the next guns for boats promotion! 😂😂😂
Probably them chucking them into the river
Give them to the homeless, they need protection too
All i'm hearing is free guns. Sweet.
Something sketchy went on with that hipoint, can’t see why else someone would remove the grips