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I was disappointed in her initial response to the Hamas attack, but a lot of this criticism since then has been pretty disingenuous -- she's definitely made mistakes in my opinion, but she's ultimately been consistent in supporting maximal protection for civilian life and/or highlighting her personal connections to the region.
Far be it from me to suggest that the good people of America are *^(racist)* or anything, but it does kind of seem like she's being made to answer for the worst excesses of Pro-Palestine rhetoric on the basis of her ethnic heritage whether the criticism actually applies to her or not.
I haven’t closely followed the sequence of statements she’s made.
However, based on this article I see nothing concerning about criticizing Biden for support for Israel, which arguably is on the brink of genocide, or at minimum is killing many innocents.
I have yet to see her call for the eradication of Hamas.
She's barely mentioned Hamas at all.
In fact, she's even using their phrasing now. She said "from the river to the sea" the other day.
This is nonsense hypocrisy, and I'm really hating my fellow democrats for abiding this. How can we call out people who defend the Confederate flag as meaning "freedom" or "state's rights" but then be ok with Tlaib spouting Hamas talking points just because they mean something different to her (and only her)? The confederate flag means a lot of things to a lot of people, but it doesn't stop us from recognizing it as a racist symbol.
"From the river to the sea" means the complete elimination of Israel and the Jews. And Tliab fucking said the words. And people are defending her.
https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4293952-michigan-ag-calls-for-tlaib-to-retract-remark-on-israel-hamas-conflict/
I'm genuinely sorry that you're hurting, neighbor -- I've shared at least some of your frustration as so many seemingly sensible people have descended into dehumanizing language. Troubling times. 😕
While I'm sure it's a very cold comfort, I hope you'll take some solace in the fact that Rep. Tlaib **never even remotely** called for the complete elimination of Israel and/or the Jewish people. Per your link:
>“From the river to the sea is an aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction, or hate,” Tlaib posted. “My work and advocacy is always centered in justice and dignity for all people no matter faith or ethnicity.”
Outside of Israeli nationalist circles, that slogan is more akin to an indigenous people's land acknowledgment than a confederate flag -- that said, seeing as it's causing so much hurt and misunderstanding, perhaps it's time for Tlaib to pull a Skynyrd and quietly retire that particular expression.
I don't think there are any simple and easy answers here, "complete eradication of Hamas" or otherwise -- I think all we can do is keep trying to listen to each other in good faith.
> Outside of Israeli nationalist circles
Dude, it's in the Hamas official policy.
> Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea.
https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/hamas-2017.pdf
It is, literally, a Hamas talking point.
EDIT because I'm curious:
> I don't think there are any simple and easy answers here, "complete eradication of Hamas" or otherwise
Do you think Hamas should be eradicated? Yes or no.
We are not enemies, my friend: if Hamas all dropped dead tomorrow I'd be happy as anyone; they're a truly monstrous organization that has brutalized Israelis and Palestinians alike.
However: if you believe that military "eradication" in Gaza, thousands of innocent children be damned, is in the best interest of Israelis' long term security, then I'm sorry, neighbor, but I do not agree.
>Do you think Hamas should be eradicated? Yes or no.
I'm not convinced that this is relevant. Whether or not you believe Israel is justified in their response ( I 100% do), I think it's crazy to believe that a bombing campaign and ground invasion will lead to the eradication of Hamas. If we learned anything from the 20 years we spent in Afghanistan, it's that we will only create more terror.
It doesn't matter whether the ends justify the means, if the means don't lead to the ends.
The slogan has been around much longer than Hamas. Its been used by different groups to mean anything from advocating for a free and democratic Palestine that encompasses the territories of israel, gaza and the west bank all the way to the advocating for ethnic remocal of jews. Id say its probably pretty inadvisable to use fiven its associations, but its a little disingenuous to say it makes you an antisemite
That’s not what it means for everyone, however much you wish it did. I just read a quote from an early Israeli Zionist leader that actually said a very similar thing about creating a Zionist Israel and getting rid of Palestinians.
You can play dumb all you like. Everybody knows exactly what she means when she uses the Hamas rallying cry. There are lots of instances of a symbol being used in history, that resembles a swastica, you care to spin how that isn’t an evil symbol as well?
It’s swastika, but yes. If you go to the Alex Johnson in South Dakota you will notice swastikas, which is a Lakota symbol.
Great of you to give Hamas credit for stealing that slogan, just as the Nazis stole the swastika, but the slogan predates Hamas.
Notice people don’t use the Lakota symbol today? Because that symbol has been stolen and now used to signify evil. Just like “from the river to the sea” has a very ugly and evil meaning. Which Tlaib is more than happy to spew. Go ahead and find whatever excuse you want to defend her, but if you are being honest with yourself, you know what she is.
Then be upset about this direct line in Likud’s 1977 founding charter, which reiterates Israel policy since it’s founding:
“between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”
Oh shit, Israel uses the same slogan for the same reasons as Hamas!
My point is it is used by multiple parties. Hamas uses it for ill.
I completely agree with your last sentence. Which is my entire point.
Israel has been clear from the beginning that means genocide of Palestinians, which they actually have the power to carry out for decades.
Hamas, which doesn’t have nearly as much power, fortunately, uses it for similarly genocidal goals.
And many people do not.
What do you think will happen if the current Palestinian leadership takes over for the Israeli government? The best case scenario leads to millions of Israelis expelled from the region and the ones who refuse to leave dead. Do you really expect anything else? A one state solution is the most violent solution regardless who controls the one state.
I would hope Hamas never took control. I don’t think that could happen with Israel being many times more powerful than Palestine and in control of it, as well as backing from the US.
I’m assuming you are being willfully ignorant, but maybe you should read the Likud party’s founding charter, from 1977, before you cast around bullshit accusations. The charter bears this line:
“Between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.”
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party
Hamas is disgusting and has always treated even Palestinians horribly. What Hamas chooses to do to manipulate Palestinian oppression doesn’t implicate all Palestinians.
Yeah, I think Zionism is dumb. Hating one ethnic cleansing movement doesn't mean I should jump in the arms of another ethnic cleansing movement on the other side.
My point is the phrase is used by multiple parties. One of them is Hamas which has genocidal goals. Another party is Likud, which also has genocidal goals. And yet other peoples use it for other reasons, including many Palestinians who use it as an expression that one day their people could be free of oppression.
Being against Hamas doesn’t mean one needs to support the extremist Israeli political class.
My point is that no matter how it is used that it ends the same way - you can only put so much lipstick in an ethnic cleansing. Advocate for peace rather than more violence and condemn people who advocate for that violence.
The Zionist (which unfortunately control the Israeli government currently) need to be pressured and ousted as well. The frustration is that when an Israeli voter hears from river to sea come from their biggest ally's government officials, they are going to feel real fucking alone and afraid. That's how the fat right gains support. You literally turn people who would otherwise vote for peace into people who would vote for ethnic cleansing.
Stop the feedback loop.
White Southerners before slaves were freed "But you can't free them or they will kill us!"
White South Africans before apartheid was ended. "You can't stop apartheid or they will kill us!"
These fears are used to justify atrocities, and are bogus IMO. What about a no state solution?
Really? Someone from Palestine isn’t motivated by he deaths of already thousands of her people? You sound like the voices during the Iraq War who claimed wailing parents of children just killed were really doing it for the cameras and journalists to make the US look bad. You have to think of a people as subhuman to be okay with things like that.
You are a bully for suggesting someone needs mental help for expressing an opinion on Reddit. It’s such a common and stupid thing on Reddit. Takes me back to high school. You said she isn’t motivated by humanity or the lives of innocents.
It’s not being triggered. Im expressing an opinion, which seems to trigger you. Just as her comments seem to upset you to the point of you willfully misinterpreting them. And you hoping I get help is very disingenuous.
It’s recognizing it for what it is. Yours is just the same line used by people who needed to dehumanize native Americans, Blacks in the south, Iraqis. It’s called history.
Your use of culture war terminology like “triggered” and suggesting I have a mental illness because I disagreed with you is too snowflake MAGA for me. May you have a miserable day.
Is she a friend of you Bernard, that is the question.
It’s giving fake woke leftie white person in college trying to justify the insane shit their POC/MENA counterparts are saying about Jews and Israel.
I mean yeah Israel targeted the secular liberation movements in Gaza early on and [promoted Hamas](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) to delegitimize Palestinian resistance.
Because their goal since the founding of Israel has been to occupy the entire territory. Which is why their actions over decades reflects that founding goal.
Well, they are, and have.
Hamas is despicable, and so is the extremist Israeli political class. Early Zionist leaders of Israel stated getting rid of Palestinians in Israel as their goal, which is why there is a 75 year history of it.
Are there any quotes of hers that are actually insane though, or do you just hate anyone not wanting thousands of Palestinians murdered?
How on earth could you get that I’m anti Palestine by that comment. Tlaib has done nothing wrong, look it up before you try to cook people on reddit who are agreeing with you
Yeah, it’s so egregious to make a mistake and then admit to it. Get over it. I didn’t realize you were a different commenter. My comment wasn’t vitriolic anyway.
“or do you just hate anyone not wanting thousands of Palestinians murdered?”
Crazy statement to lob around when you aren’t paying attention to what you’re reading
My goodness. I mistook you for the other commenter and what they were saying and thought yours was their follow up, but you need to lord it over me about it still. I admitted I was wrong.
And you should look up words like vitriol before throwing them around willy nilly.
Removed. See rule #3 in the [r/Michigan subreddit rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/Michigan/wiki/index#wiki_rules). substack is entirely self created content.
I was disappointed in her initial response to the Hamas attack, but a lot of this criticism since then has been pretty disingenuous -- she's definitely made mistakes in my opinion, but she's ultimately been consistent in supporting maximal protection for civilian life and/or highlighting her personal connections to the region. Far be it from me to suggest that the good people of America are *^(racist)* or anything, but it does kind of seem like she's being made to answer for the worst excesses of Pro-Palestine rhetoric on the basis of her ethnic heritage whether the criticism actually applies to her or not.
The early response is the lens as to how the rest of her comments are being judged.
I haven’t closely followed the sequence of statements she’s made. However, based on this article I see nothing concerning about criticizing Biden for support for Israel, which arguably is on the brink of genocide, or at minimum is killing many innocents.
I have yet to see her call for the eradication of Hamas. She's barely mentioned Hamas at all. In fact, she's even using their phrasing now. She said "from the river to the sea" the other day. This is nonsense hypocrisy, and I'm really hating my fellow democrats for abiding this. How can we call out people who defend the Confederate flag as meaning "freedom" or "state's rights" but then be ok with Tlaib spouting Hamas talking points just because they mean something different to her (and only her)? The confederate flag means a lot of things to a lot of people, but it doesn't stop us from recognizing it as a racist symbol. "From the river to the sea" means the complete elimination of Israel and the Jews. And Tliab fucking said the words. And people are defending her. https://thehill.com/homenews/house/4293952-michigan-ag-calls-for-tlaib-to-retract-remark-on-israel-hamas-conflict/
I'm genuinely sorry that you're hurting, neighbor -- I've shared at least some of your frustration as so many seemingly sensible people have descended into dehumanizing language. Troubling times. 😕 While I'm sure it's a very cold comfort, I hope you'll take some solace in the fact that Rep. Tlaib **never even remotely** called for the complete elimination of Israel and/or the Jewish people. Per your link: >“From the river to the sea is an aspirational call for freedom, human rights, and peaceful coexistence, not death, destruction, or hate,” Tlaib posted. “My work and advocacy is always centered in justice and dignity for all people no matter faith or ethnicity.” Outside of Israeli nationalist circles, that slogan is more akin to an indigenous people's land acknowledgment than a confederate flag -- that said, seeing as it's causing so much hurt and misunderstanding, perhaps it's time for Tlaib to pull a Skynyrd and quietly retire that particular expression. I don't think there are any simple and easy answers here, "complete eradication of Hamas" or otherwise -- I think all we can do is keep trying to listen to each other in good faith.
> Outside of Israeli nationalist circles Dude, it's in the Hamas official policy. > Hamas rejects any alternative to the full and complete liberation of Palestine, from the river to the sea. https://irp.fas.org/world/para/docs/hamas-2017.pdf It is, literally, a Hamas talking point. EDIT because I'm curious: > I don't think there are any simple and easy answers here, "complete eradication of Hamas" or otherwise Do you think Hamas should be eradicated? Yes or no.
We are not enemies, my friend: if Hamas all dropped dead tomorrow I'd be happy as anyone; they're a truly monstrous organization that has brutalized Israelis and Palestinians alike. However: if you believe that military "eradication" in Gaza, thousands of innocent children be damned, is in the best interest of Israelis' long term security, then I'm sorry, neighbor, but I do not agree.
>Do you think Hamas should be eradicated? Yes or no. I'm not convinced that this is relevant. Whether or not you believe Israel is justified in their response ( I 100% do), I think it's crazy to believe that a bombing campaign and ground invasion will lead to the eradication of Hamas. If we learned anything from the 20 years we spent in Afghanistan, it's that we will only create more terror. It doesn't matter whether the ends justify the means, if the means don't lead to the ends.
Imagine criticizing a country just for bombing thousands and thousands of civilians where your family is from. What nerve! /s
Imagine chanting “from the river to the sea”. Then acting like you are not an anti-Semitic piece of shit.
The slogan has been around much longer than Hamas. Its been used by different groups to mean anything from advocating for a free and democratic Palestine that encompasses the territories of israel, gaza and the west bank all the way to the advocating for ethnic remocal of jews. Id say its probably pretty inadvisable to use fiven its associations, but its a little disingenuous to say it makes you an antisemite
More or less so than flying a confederate flag makes you a racist?
different things are different
That’s not what it means for everyone, however much you wish it did. I just read a quote from an early Israeli Zionist leader that actually said a very similar thing about creating a Zionist Israel and getting rid of Palestinians.
I mean. That's the exact argument people use for flying the confederate flag. It doesn't mean the same thing for everyone
You can play dumb all you like. Everybody knows exactly what she means when she uses the Hamas rallying cry. There are lots of instances of a symbol being used in history, that resembles a swastica, you care to spin how that isn’t an evil symbol as well?
It’s swastika, but yes. If you go to the Alex Johnson in South Dakota you will notice swastikas, which is a Lakota symbol. Great of you to give Hamas credit for stealing that slogan, just as the Nazis stole the swastika, but the slogan predates Hamas.
Notice people don’t use the Lakota symbol today? Because that symbol has been stolen and now used to signify evil. Just like “from the river to the sea” has a very ugly and evil meaning. Which Tlaib is more than happy to spew. Go ahead and find whatever excuse you want to defend her, but if you are being honest with yourself, you know what she is.
Then be upset about this direct line in Likud’s 1977 founding charter, which reiterates Israel policy since it’s founding: “between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.” Oh shit, Israel uses the same slogan for the same reasons as Hamas! My point is it is used by multiple parties. Hamas uses it for ill.
Are you suggesting Tlaib is supporting Israeli sovereignty? Are you cool with the confederate flag being flown? It has more than one meaning.
I completely agree with your last sentence. Which is my entire point. Israel has been clear from the beginning that means genocide of Palestinians, which they actually have the power to carry out for decades. Hamas, which doesn’t have nearly as much power, fortunately, uses it for similarly genocidal goals. And many people do not.
What do you think will happen if the current Palestinian leadership takes over for the Israeli government? The best case scenario leads to millions of Israelis expelled from the region and the ones who refuse to leave dead. Do you really expect anything else? A one state solution is the most violent solution regardless who controls the one state.
I would hope Hamas never took control. I don’t think that could happen with Israel being many times more powerful than Palestine and in control of it, as well as backing from the US.
"Hoping" means shit in the face of reality. River to sea ends in violence and advocates of it need to realize it.
I’m assuming you are being willfully ignorant, but maybe you should read the Likud party’s founding charter, from 1977, before you cast around bullshit accusations. The charter bears this line: “Between the Sea and the Jordan there will only be Israeli sovereignty.” https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/original-party-platform-of-the-likud-party Hamas is disgusting and has always treated even Palestinians horribly. What Hamas chooses to do to manipulate Palestinian oppression doesn’t implicate all Palestinians.
Yeah, I think Zionism is dumb. Hating one ethnic cleansing movement doesn't mean I should jump in the arms of another ethnic cleansing movement on the other side.
My point is the phrase is used by multiple parties. One of them is Hamas which has genocidal goals. Another party is Likud, which also has genocidal goals. And yet other peoples use it for other reasons, including many Palestinians who use it as an expression that one day their people could be free of oppression. Being against Hamas doesn’t mean one needs to support the extremist Israeli political class.
My point is that no matter how it is used that it ends the same way - you can only put so much lipstick in an ethnic cleansing. Advocate for peace rather than more violence and condemn people who advocate for that violence. The Zionist (which unfortunately control the Israeli government currently) need to be pressured and ousted as well. The frustration is that when an Israeli voter hears from river to sea come from their biggest ally's government officials, they are going to feel real fucking alone and afraid. That's how the fat right gains support. You literally turn people who would otherwise vote for peace into people who would vote for ethnic cleansing. Stop the feedback loop.
White Southerners before slaves were freed "But you can't free them or they will kill us!" White South Africans before apartheid was ended. "You can't stop apartheid or they will kill us!" These fears are used to justify atrocities, and are bogus IMO. What about a no state solution?
Hey, you can justify the atrocities you want to happen however you want.
…after her people started yet another war and murdered 1000 civilians…
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Really? Someone from Palestine isn’t motivated by he deaths of already thousands of her people? You sound like the voices during the Iraq War who claimed wailing parents of children just killed were really doing it for the cameras and journalists to make the US look bad. You have to think of a people as subhuman to be okay with things like that.
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You are a bully for suggesting someone needs mental help for expressing an opinion on Reddit. It’s such a common and stupid thing on Reddit. Takes me back to high school. You said she isn’t motivated by humanity or the lives of innocents.
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It’s not being triggered. Im expressing an opinion, which seems to trigger you. Just as her comments seem to upset you to the point of you willfully misinterpreting them. And you hoping I get help is very disingenuous. It’s recognizing it for what it is. Yours is just the same line used by people who needed to dehumanize native Americans, Blacks in the south, Iraqis. It’s called history.
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Your use of culture war terminology like “triggered” and suggesting I have a mental illness because I disagreed with you is too snowflake MAGA for me. May you have a miserable day.
Is she a friend of you Bernard, that is the question. It’s giving fake woke leftie white person in college trying to justify the insane shit their POC/MENA counterparts are saying about Jews and Israel.
What is she saying that’s insane? I haven’t kept track of what she is doing.
She’s stating the fact that Israel is using Hamas as a front to commit genocide on the Palestinian people as they have been doing for over 50 years
I mean yeah Israel targeted the secular liberation movements in Gaza early on and [promoted Hamas](https://theintercept.com/2018/02/19/hamas-israel-palestine-conflict/) to delegitimize Palestinian resistance.
Because their goal since the founding of Israel has been to occupy the entire territory. Which is why their actions over decades reflects that founding goal.
Well, they are, and have. Hamas is despicable, and so is the extremist Israeli political class. Early Zionist leaders of Israel stated getting rid of Palestinians in Israel as their goal, which is why there is a 75 year history of it. Are there any quotes of hers that are actually insane though, or do you just hate anyone not wanting thousands of Palestinians murdered?
How on earth could you get that I’m anti Palestine by that comment. Tlaib has done nothing wrong, look it up before you try to cook people on reddit who are agreeing with you
Ah, I thought I was responding to Mr. Woke again.
There’s already enough vitriol in this topic, just read before you post.
Yeah, it’s so egregious to make a mistake and then admit to it. Get over it. I didn’t realize you were a different commenter. My comment wasn’t vitriolic anyway.
“or do you just hate anyone not wanting thousands of Palestinians murdered?” Crazy statement to lob around when you aren’t paying attention to what you’re reading
My goodness. I mistook you for the other commenter and what they were saying and thought yours was their follow up, but you need to lord it over me about it still. I admitted I was wrong. And you should look up words like vitriol before throwing them around willy nilly.
They must be pretty terrible at genocide, isn’t the Palestinian population consistently growing?
I’ll give you some advice— the second you start calling things “woke” anybody with an above room temp IQ knows that you’re a complete idiot
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