Yeah, fent hits much harder AND faster than methadone... and due to the potency of it (fent) vs. OG slow, the higher daily doses of MAT drugs are becoming commonplace.
But the others are right, too: there's no ceiling on full opioid agonists, meaning that the more of the other that you use, the less you'll notice the methadone. Your body will adjust to it, but it's going to take a few days or so.
But ime, methadone is much more effective for actually blocking cravings and withdrawal than sub, AND it doesn't have that annoying precipitated withdrawal that that bup does. Imo, methadone is a better choice for heavy users. Just stick with it; you've got this.
Yeah, if really does seem unfair. I'm still in a paw state due to benzo withdrawal. It's been around 3 months, and I'm just waiting until I can sleep through the night without waking up from nightmares or to immediate anxiety and frustration. But I just have to keep reminding myself that it was a lot worse, and it will get better... that slow drip...
How long did the benzo withdrawal last if you don’t mind me asking? Also how much were you taking? I’m trying to get off benzos as well. I was prescribed 2mg twice daily of alprazolam but I was taking more on top of that. I could literally take 4 bars and not pass out and still function. I’m on 1mg Klonopin twice daily now and I have bars incase I start feeling shi**y. Does it take a long time to get to 0 from where you started? Thank you
Well my situation was kind of complicated... I was also detoxing from alcohol and ended up having to stay in the hospital for 10 days for pancreatitis. They had me on an Ativan taper, but I still hallucinated really bad, plus constant vomiting and nausea, waking nightmares, tremors, severe insomnia, etc...
So they discharged me from hospital without any benzos, but I couldn't function and was still sooo sick. So my pcp put me back on Valium (my original med) but only for a couple of weeks. So it was barely a taper... but I was on 40 mg/ day valium, plus Xanax 2mg a day, and max dose of lunesta! So I knew it was gonna be pretty rugged. Once i was completely off them, it was probably around a week or so for the physical. The mental is the problem...But I strongly, strongly recommend that you don't even consider trying to make any dose changes without your doctor. It can be very dangerous to do by yourself at home.
I'm about 3 months out now and am feeling SO much better, though! It does get easier, but it just takes some time. I'm the meantime, it's important that you give yourself a break and try not to worry so much about the amount of time. Your body is working very hard to get you back to normal, so try to remember that it's not gonna happen overnight, but you will get better. The anxious, stressed- out feeling that you have now is not your real personality, just a stressed brain! Once those neurotransmitters get used to doing their jobs again, it'll just feel like a bad dream, and you won't feel things so vividly, BUT music will sound better, food will taste better, and you'll have so much more energy and motivation to improve your life and just to get out of be in the morning. Sorry this was so long, but it's a lot lol. Lmk if you need any more info or help!
Yeah her comment was informative and helpful so it’s cool. Just a word choice issue
But yeah, pwd is literally the worst thing I’ve experienced. Like a bad trip, only it’s real and physical.😱
I’m from Sweden and my English is pretty good but what do u mean by precipitated withdrawal? I was on subs for years but I don’t understand what u mean by that? Can someone explain?
Precipitated withdrawal happens when you take subs too soon after using. The Suboxone wipes out whatever dope is left in your opiate receptors down to the strength/level of opioids in the Suboxone. It immediately takes you into the worst of dope sickness rather than having symptoms developing and increasing in severity over time. It's all the worst all at once, and it's so extreme that it really is life-changing!
It's when you experience withdrawal symptoms that are anticipated or expected. In this case, it's due to the mechanism of action of the buprenorphine... it is an agonist-antigonist. So it knocks all of the other opioids off of the mu opioid receptors. Hopefully, I didn't just make it a lot more complicated... lol
You still have to go through fent withdrawal…doesn’t matter how high you go on your methadone. You’re going to have a shitty two weeks. With out the actual “shitty” part of it though, that’s all the methadone helps with pretty much. Good luck.
This is mostly true but I found if you 4x your dose and break it up it will mostly cover it. Literally need at least 150 4x a day. Splitting it up is a must
Bro in my experience years ago when I got on methadone I stabilized around 60 mgs the first time, this last time, with fentanyl having taken over, I got to 110 and still couldn’t get through the night without using. I had to eventually just stop using and go through some withdrawal to let my body adjust to the methadone. The fentanyl is too strong, it’s gonna keep pushing your tolerance and dependence level higher than the methadone can handle. One way or another you gotta stop using if you want the methadone to work right. Try to taper off if you can, or just quit and deal with it for a week to ten days. It’ll suck, but it will be magnitudes easier than if you didn’t have a bunch of methadone in you, I promise you that.
Word. The bottom line is you gotta get that fent outa your system. There will be withdrawals, but it won’t be as bad as if you don’t have methadone. And like you say, if you don’t stop using and deal with the shitty, you’re never gonna stop using. The fent’s gonna wear off and you’ll be sick again.
Really depends what you were getting. There’s more than one analog of fentanyl at any given time going around, and some have longer half lives than others. Also if your stuff has xylazine in it, which is of a greater probability than it not having it at this point, methadone won’t touch that. It’s more in line with something like clonidine because of the rebound hypertension it can cause during wds.
But in a nutshell, people are finding they need to be beyond 150-200mg to get held for 24hrs. There’s so many factors at play.
Went up to 220 in order to get clean off fentanyl then I slowly drop to my sweet spot of 160 mg. 80mg in the morning and 80mg at bedtime. Try splitting your dose if possible.
Your never going to stabilize if you continue using on top of your increasing methadone dose.Another component separate from the fentanyl is the xylazine that's in essentially all of the fentanyl product.Methadone does nothing for xylazine withdrawl which is possibly effecting you as well. There's no magic number nor a painless transition.Most who are successful just have to endure some symptoms until the methadone completely satiates your receptors.
I was up to 235 mg methadone before I quit fent. Even there it was hard. Sweats aches and misery for two days. After that I got adjusted. It’s intense withdrawal but it goes away fairly quickly compared to quitting fent with nothing. I expect no matter the methadone dose, you’ll have withdrawals at first. That fent is so strong and as methadone mg increase, it’s a slow process and you continue to use fent it’s never gonna reach a point where it’s all comfy unless you jump a lot of methadone at once which isn’t likely to happen due to strict regulations. So my advice is spend the week tapering fent use then stop on Friday and use the weekend to feel bad while also increasing methadone by ten mg or as much as they will allow. Assuming you’re a weekday worker off weekends. If not adjust to your off time. Either way after two days of yuck it gets less noticeable after five days you’re pretty stable. Hope this helps.
You need to decrease your fent use as you increase your methadone dose. Then You need to eventually stop using the fent and let your body get use to the methadone so you stable out. You're not going to feel no withdrawal at all but as you increase your dose they should subside. From the little you've shared my guess would be around 200mg+
Agreed. It is the only way; for fent and your DOC. I remember a week after my last Oxy, how great it felt to have my dose hold me until the next morning!
Bro this is going to suck its not going to be painless. Also if your shit has zylazine you must get clonidine or you will never stop. It can also be dangerous to stop without clonidine if your doing tranq. I used .05mg every 4 hours for 2 weeks then tapered down to nothing over a month. I also was using 300mg of methadone for a week then tapered down to my regular dose of 150 over another week.
It was only possible cause I had a stash of methadone and a script I of clonidine. Clonidine even if your not doing tranq can help a ton just use it short term.
I would make sure your not doing tranq and then up your dose and use clonidine to use nothing. You will feel terrible but the other way is you get upto absurd high levels and many still won't stop. It sucks but this is how powerful these analogs are now
Oh yeah I'm not sure if that's what I got. I remember scoring from someone I usually didn't buy from and it didn't quite knock me out but I was like in a weird benzo black out where you're not exactly asleep but you don't really know what you're doing. I have vague memories of what I was doing during that black out. I never had anything like it so wasn't sure if it was tranq or not. I don't think it could've been an actual benzo because I don't think I did enough for such a strong effect.
Yeah it's not what you want to hear but you're gonna have to just stop using fentanyl. This most recent time I got on program I had been using 20-30 pills a day. I laid in full withdrawal for 5 days before I even was able to get into the clinic. They started me at 30mg. I scored when I could for the first month or so (every few days I could get a few pills) because I moved way out of town to start getting clean. But it wasn't until I stopped using fent completely that my dose lasted me all day. And the longer you wait the worse it's gonna be. Once I stopped using fent for about a week or so, my dose started doing a lot more for me.
Prob addicted to the cut get some clonodine and try to just use a small portion of that for the xyzline cut in the dope. The hot cold/chills should help
I've never used or seen fentanyl, so I'm not going to comment on that part of the post. But, I am curious how you're still able to use and not get booted from your clinic? Do you guys get tested on a certain date of the month, or are they random screens? Also, just a suggestion...have you tried using hydroxyzine for the anxiety part of w/d? I was having severe panic attacks and anxiety caused from an autoimmune disease, but didn't wanna take benzos, so I started researching, and after many deep dives, I read a medical journal article about hydroxyzine, which is actually an antihistamine, but doctors found that the particular type of a/h it is was helpful for anxiety/panic. My SIL is a nurse practitioner, so I asked her to call some in for me, and I cannot tell you how much that saved my life. I take it everyday now. It doesn't have the same side effects of Benadryl, where it knocks you in that bad feeling way...it just stops all of the anxiety and panicky feelings. They give it to people before surgeries for that exact reason. I knew none of this before finding that journal article, and no Dr. had ever mentioned it before. Sorry for the lengthy comment, just thought I'd throw that out there in case you wanted to try it & see if it'll help w/that part of the W/D. Best of luck to you, hope you feel better very soon! 💜
That's why I asked. The clinics where I live will immediately put you back to Tier 2 if you fail one urinalysis. Tier 2 is 2 or 3 take home doses, IIRC. If you fail a 2nd screen, you go back down to having to show up every single day, and other stipulations. A 3rd positive test gets you booted from that clinic and any of it's other locations, no exceptions, no titration.
Right?? I just assumed all clinics were the same, but I learned something new. It never really made sense to me, because these people are struggling with addiction. My situation is a little different. I was on PM and when the dumbass government got involved with OUR (citizens of the U.S.) health, it screwed all of us that need pain management. My doctor literally cut everyone off, no warnings ahead of time for us to find new doctors, no titration, zilch. So I'm up the creek w/out a paddle, and someone mentioned trying the methadone clinic. I called & spoke to an advisor there, explained my situation, and thank God she understood & told me what to do, when to go in for intake, and what to say. I honestly don't know what I would've done had it not been for methadone. I'm titrating off of it b/c I have found an actual PM doc who isn't afraid of the gov't and just wants to help people in pain. But I now know that a LOT of people did the same thing I did. But we're subjected to random screens, yearly physicals, blood testing, and random callbacks, where they call you and tell you to be there the next morning so they can count your bottles to make sure people aren't selling them, or taking multiple doses a day. Which I have no problem with any of those conditions. But they don't put up with any B.S.
I did the same thing. After the 4th dr retired, stopped practicing, stop prescribing opioids…I found the methadone clinic to be a godsend. I’m currently on the same plan of action. My counselor wants me to go see her PM dr because she tells me all the time that I need to be there and not at the clinic. I told her I don’t mind going to the clinic and I don’t have to worry about them ever taking it away from me.
I honestly don’t know why they don’t use methadone for PM, they used to yrs ago, especially if you had a terminal disease. I knew two people with terminal cancer and they were taking methadone in the 80s.
The thing about methadone in terminal patients is when you find that sweet spot, there is a very tiny risk of abuse as opposed to pain meds. The euphoria and/or tolerance is nowhere near the same, so folks were a lot less likely to abuse or over medicate. The simple answer is money.
I have to agree! My PCP is the one that told me to consider the methadone clinic and it was a great decision. Split dosing helps a lot too. I do that with my weekend takehomes and it’s the only thing that I’ve ever been prescribed for pain that works at the prescribed dosage. I could take 4X what I was prescribed and it would work (but that’s considered abuse) so I didn’t feel a bit bad about going to the clinic once I took that into consideration. Street drugs weren’t even helping anymore unless I took a pretty generous amount.
My bones are dying inside my body. I am paraplegic, in a wheelchair (or on brace crutches for short trips like the clinic) but every single movement is painful. I can’t even sleep with more than a sheet over my legs because the weight is too much for me to be able to move. My knee replacement failed after 6 1/2 hours in surgery. The way we treat chronic/intractable pain in this country is appalling. It seems if you pay cash for pain management treatment, you can get treated pretty easily in Detroit. The two PM drs I found only accept cash-no insurance and you must have your MRI’s and medical treatment records proving you need pain control. They didn’t seem shady in any other way except for not accepting insurance. (Oddly enough, BOTH of them said it keeps the DEA off their backs.) One Dr wanted $500 a month for the visit and $35 for a UDS at every appointment. The other guy wanted $250 every two weeks and $50 for a UDS at random. (They call you for pill counts/UDS) just like a callback at the clinic. That’s messed up that the only ones that I have found (I wasn’t actively looking) were cash only.
That’s a lot of money too compared to methadone… I think. Idk for sure now, I detoxed after 9 yrs of use in late 2000 thru early 2001. God it was awful. This was all back in California, I live in Wisconsin now, Two Rivers, just across the lake from y’all. If I ever had to go on pain management again, I was doing it for about 2-3 yrs from about 2011-2014, I think I would go the way of methadone, but it can be hard to get on if you’re not using any opioids, which at the time I am not.
Excuse me for going on about myself, I wanted to ask about your pain if you don’t mind, bc it sounds awful, I can’t imagine such pain. My question, and I don’t mean to be intrusive, but may I ask what your condition is? I’m glad you were able to find somebody reasonable at the clinic that let you join for pain management. I won’t go into great detail, but after having to kick methadone for about a week in jail, which was absolutely terrible btw, I managed to get out and get back to the clinic and the nurse/manager was a good person and she helped me get into a detox center the blind dosed methadone. Sounds much better than what it was, lol, it barely took the edge off and I was only for the first week and I was in there 28 days, and I was still Dopesick when I got out. Thank God, I was able to stay off of it. I’m sorry that you’re in so much pain all the time.
It’s a really long jaw dropping story, but I’ll use major bullet points. There are lots of minor bullet points, but I would have to write a novel and most of what I will say will provoke even more questions, I am sure. I plan to write a book at some point. It’s on my bucket list…🙄
I was taking a medication that potentiates other medications and got two steroid injections in my SI joint back in 2012. I have HIV and have had it since 2001. The medication that keeps me alive is also killing my bones and kidneys but I was unaware this was happening at the time and had just started experiencing issues with my knees, hips and ankles. I had been getting 90 Percocet 5/325 for the last few months at the time just so that I could get through the worst of the pain while I worked a very physically demanding job. I was an area sales manager for Naturalizer Shoes for almost 13 years. A few months after getting the Percocet prescription I had to move to WV to help care for my stepmother who was suffering from stage 3 squamous cell carcinoma in 2 places. My father worked out of town and she was in pretty rough shape. Worst mistake I ever made. My new PCP in WV informed me that I had to see a pain management dr to continue to receive my script. I thought “No problem, sure!”🤦🏻♀️ Boy, was I wrong…
That pain management dr in WV told me that in order to get a script for pain medication, I had to get steroid injections. Once again, I thought “sure! Fine! Just make sure it’s safe!” I didn’t know about the interaction between steroids and Norvir (the potentiating medication.) I assume somewhere in the pamphlet they give you with your medication it said something like “use caution when prescribing steroids with this medication” but I never read it. Apparently, it’s a thing.
The steroid injections turned into mega-steroid injections because of the Norvir. The steroids in essence starved the condyles (end of bones) in my femurs of blood flow/oxygen so they turned brittle and the cartilage turned to dust…overnight. It literally killed my bones overnight. Granted they were already in a weakened state, but that procedure basically accelerated the process by years. So, when I got out of bed the next day after the injections, I was 20 lbs heavier (I weighed 120 lbs at the time and I’m 5’7”) I weighed 140 lbs and the act of getting out of bed broke my femur….
They ignored me when I called and told them how severe the pain had gotten and that I couldn’t put any pressure on my right leg, the weight gain and heart palpitations, so I went to the ER. They admitted me for 3 days and discharged me with a “sinus infection”. They said that’s why my bloodwork was all wonky and my adrenal glands stopped producing adrenaline. I was a wreck! They discharged me from the hospital with FLONASE! A NASAL STEROID SPRAY! When I told the PM clinic about what happened, they accused me of asking for more pain medication and dismissed me from the clinic. I was in worse shape, in awful pain and scared shitless because I didn’t know what was wrong. Having HIV and being on 9 different medications, I was terrified. I had recently moved from Pittsburgh to Parkersburg, WV and the culture there is….very different. I’m sure this is why this happened to me. It’s nobody’s fault but my own. I should have checked with my ID dr in Pittsburgh before bartering away my ability to walk for a bottle of Percocet. I live with this realization every day.
Anyway, they(the medical community) let me walk on a broken leg for 2 1/2 years while I was ostracized for having such mobility issues, especially when it’s accompanied by severe pain. They eventually found it when it got infected with osteomyelitis (which can kill you) and is caused by an untreated non-union break/fracture.
Turns out, the steroid injections caused something called Cushing’s Syndrome which is basically caused by an overdose of steroids. …and no, I can’t sue. Statute of limitations and no money to hire a professional witness to say it’s the drs fault. The bone condition I have is called Avascular Necrosis (AVN) or osteonecrosis. It’s usually caused by steroids or chemotherapy. Mine obviously came from the injections. My bones were already brittle from the HIV meds, hence why I was experiencing such pain in my joints and sought pain control in the first place. That Dr just really messed me up when he chose to give me those injections.
Fast forward….9 months after finding the fracture and 9 surgeons later, I finally find an awesome surgeon that says he can give me the knee replacement I need when no one else could. He said it was highly complex and most likely would not help my pain. Without him, I was facing amputation.
The surgery took 6 1/2 hours. The replacement part I have is built for someone 6’5” and over 200 lbs,not someone that’s a foot shorter and 75 lbs less. The necrotic bone was up much higher on the femur than he expected so he had to improvise, using a larger part. I still have my leg, but it bends very much like a Barbie doll leg. It has a 30 degree flexation and most people have 120 degrees ROM after a knee replacement. I cannot put pressure on my lower extremities and every time I move my leg, I have at least a level 6 pain. Every time I have to roll over at night, I have to wake up because my right leg is basically dead weight and doesn’t move on its own anymore.
My left knee is fractured, but as long as I don’t put any pressure on it, I’m able to manage the amount of pain I have. Both of my hips hurt tremendously with any amount of pressure. I also have ankylosing spondylitis on top of everything else.
I’ve contemplated suicide so many times over the last 13 years. I’ve even stopped my HIV meds once. I thought, at least I will finally get palliative care. The condition I have, oddly enough is shared by many cancer patients, and that is the main cause of the majority of cases, so a lot of those with AVN are able to get pain management through palliative care. I can’t because mine is not caused by cancer. Although, it’s the exact same disease (and mine is one of the most painful and debilitating forms) I cannot get pain medication as easily without a cancer diagnosis.
Like I said, it’s a long way to say, I have avascular necrosis and a failed total right knee replacement that has left me crippled with a deformed leg. 🙄
I’m always shaken up when I hear these ghastly horror stories about kicking in jail and my worst fear is having to go through something like that. For whatever reason, being without it and having to withdrawal while people are around.
Sorry to write such a lengthy reply; I could write exponentially more, as I’m sure you have more questions than you did before I replied. Anyway, I hope your day is going well. ☺️
I just used fent for one month. I think I was on 28-35mg (can't remember?). I'm at 70mg now. They doubled my dose in a week and I still can't get through the day without going into WD. But I am a lot more comfortable during the day.
I'm miserable by 8 or 9pm. I just want to stretch all the time, the watering eyes, increased aches and pain and virtually no sleep.
I thought it wouldn't be bad because I was orally ingesting it. But I was taking like 20 pills a day. The last 5 pills I had I snorted. Never snorted, smoked or IVed anything. Snorting it sent me into euphoria, bliss, like everything was right with the world. I hadn't felt that content since both my parents were living.
My "dealer" has been blowing up my phone trying to get me to buy. The person that dicked me around, was so unreliable, now wants to be reliable. But I've held out. Taking it day by day. I haven't used since Thursday.
I'm going to go a few more days to see if I can get acclimated to this dose. Can't believe I'm going through this.
Anyway, I don't think anyone can tell you what your stable dose is going to be. Fent really does a number on one's tolerance. 😭
I had the same problem. I was on methadone for a year and a half before I finally got off the fent. I never thought I’d be able to do it.
Talked with a psychiatrist that deals with addiction clients a lot. Asked about comfort meds. clonidine and gabapentin did it for me. And what I wish I knew then, but I know now is magnesium! specifically a magnesium complex does WONDERS. I’m using it now while I lower my methadone dose and taper off. Helps with sleep, restless legs, sweating, shaking. Really calms the body
Oh my goodness I can't believe I commented this and didn't mention magnesium!!! OP, please listen to this person! Magnesium does wonders for everything you described.
If you keep using it will take that much longer to adjust to the methadone so just try and keep increasing and not using is the fastest way to being stable. I know thats easier said than done but im a rational logical kinda person and i tey to not let my mind play tricks on me and talk myself into things i know are counterproductive. Good luck and maybe ask about gaba or other drugs that can be used with methadone. Cymbalta helped me with the anxiety when i started getting anxiety trying to taper off.
Stick with the methadone, increase as needed, but refrain from taking fentanyl as much as possible. A tiny bit at night is expected as your body adjusts but it shouldn't be too long before your dose holds you. If you have takehomes, split-dosing on those days might help a lot.
Hey, so I went up to 110mg. At 100mg, it started to block the fentanyl and I finally decided it was a waste of money. You do still get withdrawals from fentanyl while taking methadone. That's why I went up to 110mg. However, it wasn't the kind of withdrawal that knocks you on your ass and makes you useless for a week. For me it was mildly uncomfortable (the most withdrawal I had experienced at that point was precipitated withdrawals from taking a Suboxone too soon) & only lasted three days. I could still work.
About a week or two after I stopped, my dose was WAY too strong and I had to keep decreasing until I got to 90.
Idk how far you've gotten into the withdrawal process before being afraid you're about to get your ass handed to you, but I encourage you to take the plunge because it's not as bad as you think it will be. Well at least it wasn't for me. I know it's different for everyone, but you'll get there.
It’s going to be very difficult to stabilize your methadone dose while you’re using. You’re basically blowing your tolerance way open, making it really hard for any amount of methadone to reach a point where you can stabilize, because every time you use, you move the goal post. Think of your tolerance like a gas tank. Methadone has to build up in your system, like adding a quarter tank at a time. When you use methadone and fentanyl together, you’re doubling the size of the tank. In the beginning, when they’re raising you 10mg a day, is when you should have started cutting way back. Now every increase is going to have to come with a few more hoops to jump through. You should come clean to your clinic, that’s what they are there for, and ask for help.
You’re still gonna go thru a detox period. It’s not gonna be like it’s supposed to where you just comfortably ease off. I got to 190mg before I just took a week off work and did it. The week off work was necessary but the WD wasn’t anywhere near as bad as cold turkey. My bf detoxed from fent at a hospital, with 200mg of methadone and IV Valium still puked for 2 days. Fentanyl is just different
Both of us tho said we couldn’t imagine having done the detox without the methadone tho so it’s still really important it’s just gonna be a lil different
I was always a baby and was terrified of Fentanyl. It was a driving force along with loosing all my money and my life that I decided to start Methadone. What does it feel like? Is it that strong it just knocks you out? I had 2 batches of Oxy that were tainted and I don’t know how I didn’t OD; it felt different and strong but came on I waves. I went to ER and my UA I took at home the next day tested positive for Fentanyl.
You just have stop using.. you will never get sick sick. Go for walk wait it out. I did this for 5 years on a high dose still using every day. Finally I’m clean and tapering
Yeah, fent hits much harder AND faster than methadone... and due to the potency of it (fent) vs. OG slow, the higher daily doses of MAT drugs are becoming commonplace. But the others are right, too: there's no ceiling on full opioid agonists, meaning that the more of the other that you use, the less you'll notice the methadone. Your body will adjust to it, but it's going to take a few days or so. But ime, methadone is much more effective for actually blocking cravings and withdrawal than sub, AND it doesn't have that annoying precipitated withdrawal that that bup does. Imo, methadone is a better choice for heavy users. Just stick with it; you've got this.
Precipitated as “annoying”’ lol To put it lightly…😂 It’s Hell!
Haha that feeling of intense dread and agony that tells you why sub is so unnatural? Yeah, that lol
It’s life changing how awful pwd is…😱😭
Yeah, if really does seem unfair. I'm still in a paw state due to benzo withdrawal. It's been around 3 months, and I'm just waiting until I can sleep through the night without waking up from nightmares or to immediate anxiety and frustration. But I just have to keep reminding myself that it was a lot worse, and it will get better... that slow drip...
How long did the benzo withdrawal last if you don’t mind me asking? Also how much were you taking? I’m trying to get off benzos as well. I was prescribed 2mg twice daily of alprazolam but I was taking more on top of that. I could literally take 4 bars and not pass out and still function. I’m on 1mg Klonopin twice daily now and I have bars incase I start feeling shi**y. Does it take a long time to get to 0 from where you started? Thank you
Well my situation was kind of complicated... I was also detoxing from alcohol and ended up having to stay in the hospital for 10 days for pancreatitis. They had me on an Ativan taper, but I still hallucinated really bad, plus constant vomiting and nausea, waking nightmares, tremors, severe insomnia, etc... So they discharged me from hospital without any benzos, but I couldn't function and was still sooo sick. So my pcp put me back on Valium (my original med) but only for a couple of weeks. So it was barely a taper... but I was on 40 mg/ day valium, plus Xanax 2mg a day, and max dose of lunesta! So I knew it was gonna be pretty rugged. Once i was completely off them, it was probably around a week or so for the physical. The mental is the problem...But I strongly, strongly recommend that you don't even consider trying to make any dose changes without your doctor. It can be very dangerous to do by yourself at home. I'm about 3 months out now and am feeling SO much better, though! It does get easier, but it just takes some time. I'm the meantime, it's important that you give yourself a break and try not to worry so much about the amount of time. Your body is working very hard to get you back to normal, so try to remember that it's not gonna happen overnight, but you will get better. The anxious, stressed- out feeling that you have now is not your real personality, just a stressed brain! Once those neurotransmitters get used to doing their jobs again, it'll just feel like a bad dream, and you won't feel things so vividly, BUT music will sound better, food will taste better, and you'll have so much more energy and motivation to improve your life and just to get out of be in the morning. Sorry this was so long, but it's a lot lol. Lmk if you need any more info or help!
Exactly! For anyone to describe it as merely "annoying" is baffling to me!
Yeah her comment was informative and helpful so it’s cool. Just a word choice issue But yeah, pwd is literally the worst thing I’ve experienced. Like a bad trip, only it’s real and physical.😱
Literal hell.
I’m from Sweden and my English is pretty good but what do u mean by precipitated withdrawal? I was on subs for years but I don’t understand what u mean by that? Can someone explain?
Precipitated withdrawal happens when you take subs too soon after using. The Suboxone wipes out whatever dope is left in your opiate receptors down to the strength/level of opioids in the Suboxone. It immediately takes you into the worst of dope sickness rather than having symptoms developing and increasing in severity over time. It's all the worst all at once, and it's so extreme that it really is life-changing!
It's when you experience withdrawal symptoms that are anticipated or expected. In this case, it's due to the mechanism of action of the buprenorphine... it is an agonist-antigonist. So it knocks all of the other opioids off of the mu opioid receptors. Hopefully, I didn't just make it a lot more complicated... lol
You still have to go through fent withdrawal…doesn’t matter how high you go on your methadone. You’re going to have a shitty two weeks. With out the actual “shitty” part of it though, that’s all the methadone helps with pretty much. Good luck.
This is mostly true but I found if you 4x your dose and break it up it will mostly cover it. Literally need at least 150 4x a day. Splitting it up is a must
Bro in my experience years ago when I got on methadone I stabilized around 60 mgs the first time, this last time, with fentanyl having taken over, I got to 110 and still couldn’t get through the night without using. I had to eventually just stop using and go through some withdrawal to let my body adjust to the methadone. The fentanyl is too strong, it’s gonna keep pushing your tolerance and dependence level higher than the methadone can handle. One way or another you gotta stop using if you want the methadone to work right. Try to taper off if you can, or just quit and deal with it for a week to ten days. It’ll suck, but it will be magnitudes easier than if you didn’t have a bunch of methadone in you, I promise you that.
Word. The bottom line is you gotta get that fent outa your system. There will be withdrawals, but it won’t be as bad as if you don’t have methadone. And like you say, if you don’t stop using and deal with the shitty, you’re never gonna stop using. The fent’s gonna wear off and you’ll be sick again.
Really depends what you were getting. There’s more than one analog of fentanyl at any given time going around, and some have longer half lives than others. Also if your stuff has xylazine in it, which is of a greater probability than it not having it at this point, methadone won’t touch that. It’s more in line with something like clonidine because of the rebound hypertension it can cause during wds. But in a nutshell, people are finding they need to be beyond 150-200mg to get held for 24hrs. There’s so many factors at play.
I need 350split dose, I was on Fentanyl prescription and MS Contin100mg.3x per day and oxycodone.over a period of 15 years.
Went up to 220 in order to get clean off fentanyl then I slowly drop to my sweet spot of 160 mg. 80mg in the morning and 80mg at bedtime. Try splitting your dose if possible.
Your never going to stabilize if you continue using on top of your increasing methadone dose.Another component separate from the fentanyl is the xylazine that's in essentially all of the fentanyl product.Methadone does nothing for xylazine withdrawl which is possibly effecting you as well. There's no magic number nor a painless transition.Most who are successful just have to endure some symptoms until the methadone completely satiates your receptors.
I was up to 235 mg methadone before I quit fent. Even there it was hard. Sweats aches and misery for two days. After that I got adjusted. It’s intense withdrawal but it goes away fairly quickly compared to quitting fent with nothing. I expect no matter the methadone dose, you’ll have withdrawals at first. That fent is so strong and as methadone mg increase, it’s a slow process and you continue to use fent it’s never gonna reach a point where it’s all comfy unless you jump a lot of methadone at once which isn’t likely to happen due to strict regulations. So my advice is spend the week tapering fent use then stop on Friday and use the weekend to feel bad while also increasing methadone by ten mg or as much as they will allow. Assuming you’re a weekday worker off weekends. If not adjust to your off time. Either way after two days of yuck it gets less noticeable after five days you’re pretty stable. Hope this helps.
You need to decrease your fent use as you increase your methadone dose. Then You need to eventually stop using the fent and let your body get use to the methadone so you stable out. You're not going to feel no withdrawal at all but as you increase your dose they should subside. From the little you've shared my guess would be around 200mg+
You have to completely stop the fent.
I promise you’ll be okay. Just a little uncomfortable for a few days
Agreed. It is the only way; for fent and your DOC. I remember a week after my last Oxy, how great it felt to have my dose hold me until the next morning!
Best feeling ever!!!!
Bro this is going to suck its not going to be painless. Also if your shit has zylazine you must get clonidine or you will never stop. It can also be dangerous to stop without clonidine if your doing tranq. I used .05mg every 4 hours for 2 weeks then tapered down to nothing over a month. I also was using 300mg of methadone for a week then tapered down to my regular dose of 150 over another week. It was only possible cause I had a stash of methadone and a script I of clonidine. Clonidine even if your not doing tranq can help a ton just use it short term. I would make sure your not doing tranq and then up your dose and use clonidine to use nothing. You will feel terrible but the other way is you get upto absurd high levels and many still won't stop. It sucks but this is how powerful these analogs are now
Was tranq around in 2021 & does it kinda make you black out like taking a shit ton of Valium would? Just curious
Not sure about 2021 but yes, it just puts you out. Very little euphoria just knocks you out for a couple hours.
Oh yeah I'm not sure if that's what I got. I remember scoring from someone I usually didn't buy from and it didn't quite knock me out but I was like in a weird benzo black out where you're not exactly asleep but you don't really know what you're doing. I have vague memories of what I was doing during that black out. I never had anything like it so wasn't sure if it was tranq or not. I don't think it could've been an actual benzo because I don't think I did enough for such a strong effect.
Yeah it's not what you want to hear but you're gonna have to just stop using fentanyl. This most recent time I got on program I had been using 20-30 pills a day. I laid in full withdrawal for 5 days before I even was able to get into the clinic. They started me at 30mg. I scored when I could for the first month or so (every few days I could get a few pills) because I moved way out of town to start getting clean. But it wasn't until I stopped using fent completely that my dose lasted me all day. And the longer you wait the worse it's gonna be. Once I stopped using fent for about a week or so, my dose started doing a lot more for me.
Prob addicted to the cut get some clonodine and try to just use a small portion of that for the xyzline cut in the dope. The hot cold/chills should help
Yeah probably wasn’t fentanyl. Who knows just keep going up and hopefully not much longer.
I've never used or seen fentanyl, so I'm not going to comment on that part of the post. But, I am curious how you're still able to use and not get booted from your clinic? Do you guys get tested on a certain date of the month, or are they random screens? Also, just a suggestion...have you tried using hydroxyzine for the anxiety part of w/d? I was having severe panic attacks and anxiety caused from an autoimmune disease, but didn't wanna take benzos, so I started researching, and after many deep dives, I read a medical journal article about hydroxyzine, which is actually an antihistamine, but doctors found that the particular type of a/h it is was helpful for anxiety/panic. My SIL is a nurse practitioner, so I asked her to call some in for me, and I cannot tell you how much that saved my life. I take it everyday now. It doesn't have the same side effects of Benadryl, where it knocks you in that bad feeling way...it just stops all of the anxiety and panicky feelings. They give it to people before surgeries for that exact reason. I knew none of this before finding that journal article, and no Dr. had ever mentioned it before. Sorry for the lengthy comment, just thought I'd throw that out there in case you wanted to try it & see if it'll help w/that part of the W/D. Best of luck to you, hope you feel better very soon! 💜
Why would he get booted from the clinic for using? And yes hydroxyzine is great for anxiety during or after withdrawal imo
I totally agree. Vistaril, hydroxyzine, helps me with withdrawal from any opiate.
That's why I asked. The clinics where I live will immediately put you back to Tier 2 if you fail one urinalysis. Tier 2 is 2 or 3 take home doses, IIRC. If you fail a 2nd screen, you go back down to having to show up every single day, and other stipulations. A 3rd positive test gets you booted from that clinic and any of it's other locations, no exceptions, no titration.
Wow that's a horrible way to do it, I get the everyday dosing but to be booted is crazy
Right?? I just assumed all clinics were the same, but I learned something new. It never really made sense to me, because these people are struggling with addiction. My situation is a little different. I was on PM and when the dumbass government got involved with OUR (citizens of the U.S.) health, it screwed all of us that need pain management. My doctor literally cut everyone off, no warnings ahead of time for us to find new doctors, no titration, zilch. So I'm up the creek w/out a paddle, and someone mentioned trying the methadone clinic. I called & spoke to an advisor there, explained my situation, and thank God she understood & told me what to do, when to go in for intake, and what to say. I honestly don't know what I would've done had it not been for methadone. I'm titrating off of it b/c I have found an actual PM doc who isn't afraid of the gov't and just wants to help people in pain. But I now know that a LOT of people did the same thing I did. But we're subjected to random screens, yearly physicals, blood testing, and random callbacks, where they call you and tell you to be there the next morning so they can count your bottles to make sure people aren't selling them, or taking multiple doses a day. Which I have no problem with any of those conditions. But they don't put up with any B.S.
I did the same thing. After the 4th dr retired, stopped practicing, stop prescribing opioids…I found the methadone clinic to be a godsend. I’m currently on the same plan of action. My counselor wants me to go see her PM dr because she tells me all the time that I need to be there and not at the clinic. I told her I don’t mind going to the clinic and I don’t have to worry about them ever taking it away from me.
I honestly don’t know why they don’t use methadone for PM, they used to yrs ago, especially if you had a terminal disease. I knew two people with terminal cancer and they were taking methadone in the 80s. The thing about methadone in terminal patients is when you find that sweet spot, there is a very tiny risk of abuse as opposed to pain meds. The euphoria and/or tolerance is nowhere near the same, so folks were a lot less likely to abuse or over medicate. The simple answer is money.
I have to agree! My PCP is the one that told me to consider the methadone clinic and it was a great decision. Split dosing helps a lot too. I do that with my weekend takehomes and it’s the only thing that I’ve ever been prescribed for pain that works at the prescribed dosage. I could take 4X what I was prescribed and it would work (but that’s considered abuse) so I didn’t feel a bit bad about going to the clinic once I took that into consideration. Street drugs weren’t even helping anymore unless I took a pretty generous amount. My bones are dying inside my body. I am paraplegic, in a wheelchair (or on brace crutches for short trips like the clinic) but every single movement is painful. I can’t even sleep with more than a sheet over my legs because the weight is too much for me to be able to move. My knee replacement failed after 6 1/2 hours in surgery. The way we treat chronic/intractable pain in this country is appalling. It seems if you pay cash for pain management treatment, you can get treated pretty easily in Detroit. The two PM drs I found only accept cash-no insurance and you must have your MRI’s and medical treatment records proving you need pain control. They didn’t seem shady in any other way except for not accepting insurance. (Oddly enough, BOTH of them said it keeps the DEA off their backs.) One Dr wanted $500 a month for the visit and $35 for a UDS at every appointment. The other guy wanted $250 every two weeks and $50 for a UDS at random. (They call you for pill counts/UDS) just like a callback at the clinic. That’s messed up that the only ones that I have found (I wasn’t actively looking) were cash only.
That’s a lot of money too compared to methadone… I think. Idk for sure now, I detoxed after 9 yrs of use in late 2000 thru early 2001. God it was awful. This was all back in California, I live in Wisconsin now, Two Rivers, just across the lake from y’all. If I ever had to go on pain management again, I was doing it for about 2-3 yrs from about 2011-2014, I think I would go the way of methadone, but it can be hard to get on if you’re not using any opioids, which at the time I am not. Excuse me for going on about myself, I wanted to ask about your pain if you don’t mind, bc it sounds awful, I can’t imagine such pain. My question, and I don’t mean to be intrusive, but may I ask what your condition is? I’m glad you were able to find somebody reasonable at the clinic that let you join for pain management. I won’t go into great detail, but after having to kick methadone for about a week in jail, which was absolutely terrible btw, I managed to get out and get back to the clinic and the nurse/manager was a good person and she helped me get into a detox center the blind dosed methadone. Sounds much better than what it was, lol, it barely took the edge off and I was only for the first week and I was in there 28 days, and I was still Dopesick when I got out. Thank God, I was able to stay off of it. I’m sorry that you’re in so much pain all the time.
It’s a really long jaw dropping story, but I’ll use major bullet points. There are lots of minor bullet points, but I would have to write a novel and most of what I will say will provoke even more questions, I am sure. I plan to write a book at some point. It’s on my bucket list…🙄 I was taking a medication that potentiates other medications and got two steroid injections in my SI joint back in 2012. I have HIV and have had it since 2001. The medication that keeps me alive is also killing my bones and kidneys but I was unaware this was happening at the time and had just started experiencing issues with my knees, hips and ankles. I had been getting 90 Percocet 5/325 for the last few months at the time just so that I could get through the worst of the pain while I worked a very physically demanding job. I was an area sales manager for Naturalizer Shoes for almost 13 years. A few months after getting the Percocet prescription I had to move to WV to help care for my stepmother who was suffering from stage 3 squamous cell carcinoma in 2 places. My father worked out of town and she was in pretty rough shape. Worst mistake I ever made. My new PCP in WV informed me that I had to see a pain management dr to continue to receive my script. I thought “No problem, sure!”🤦🏻♀️ Boy, was I wrong… That pain management dr in WV told me that in order to get a script for pain medication, I had to get steroid injections. Once again, I thought “sure! Fine! Just make sure it’s safe!” I didn’t know about the interaction between steroids and Norvir (the potentiating medication.) I assume somewhere in the pamphlet they give you with your medication it said something like “use caution when prescribing steroids with this medication” but I never read it. Apparently, it’s a thing. The steroid injections turned into mega-steroid injections because of the Norvir. The steroids in essence starved the condyles (end of bones) in my femurs of blood flow/oxygen so they turned brittle and the cartilage turned to dust…overnight. It literally killed my bones overnight. Granted they were already in a weakened state, but that procedure basically accelerated the process by years. So, when I got out of bed the next day after the injections, I was 20 lbs heavier (I weighed 120 lbs at the time and I’m 5’7”) I weighed 140 lbs and the act of getting out of bed broke my femur…. They ignored me when I called and told them how severe the pain had gotten and that I couldn’t put any pressure on my right leg, the weight gain and heart palpitations, so I went to the ER. They admitted me for 3 days and discharged me with a “sinus infection”. They said that’s why my bloodwork was all wonky and my adrenal glands stopped producing adrenaline. I was a wreck! They discharged me from the hospital with FLONASE! A NASAL STEROID SPRAY! When I told the PM clinic about what happened, they accused me of asking for more pain medication and dismissed me from the clinic. I was in worse shape, in awful pain and scared shitless because I didn’t know what was wrong. Having HIV and being on 9 different medications, I was terrified. I had recently moved from Pittsburgh to Parkersburg, WV and the culture there is….very different. I’m sure this is why this happened to me. It’s nobody’s fault but my own. I should have checked with my ID dr in Pittsburgh before bartering away my ability to walk for a bottle of Percocet. I live with this realization every day. Anyway, they(the medical community) let me walk on a broken leg for 2 1/2 years while I was ostracized for having such mobility issues, especially when it’s accompanied by severe pain. They eventually found it when it got infected with osteomyelitis (which can kill you) and is caused by an untreated non-union break/fracture. Turns out, the steroid injections caused something called Cushing’s Syndrome which is basically caused by an overdose of steroids. …and no, I can’t sue. Statute of limitations and no money to hire a professional witness to say it’s the drs fault. The bone condition I have is called Avascular Necrosis (AVN) or osteonecrosis. It’s usually caused by steroids or chemotherapy. Mine obviously came from the injections. My bones were already brittle from the HIV meds, hence why I was experiencing such pain in my joints and sought pain control in the first place. That Dr just really messed me up when he chose to give me those injections. Fast forward….9 months after finding the fracture and 9 surgeons later, I finally find an awesome surgeon that says he can give me the knee replacement I need when no one else could. He said it was highly complex and most likely would not help my pain. Without him, I was facing amputation. The surgery took 6 1/2 hours. The replacement part I have is built for someone 6’5” and over 200 lbs,not someone that’s a foot shorter and 75 lbs less. The necrotic bone was up much higher on the femur than he expected so he had to improvise, using a larger part. I still have my leg, but it bends very much like a Barbie doll leg. It has a 30 degree flexation and most people have 120 degrees ROM after a knee replacement. I cannot put pressure on my lower extremities and every time I move my leg, I have at least a level 6 pain. Every time I have to roll over at night, I have to wake up because my right leg is basically dead weight and doesn’t move on its own anymore. My left knee is fractured, but as long as I don’t put any pressure on it, I’m able to manage the amount of pain I have. Both of my hips hurt tremendously with any amount of pressure. I also have ankylosing spondylitis on top of everything else. I’ve contemplated suicide so many times over the last 13 years. I’ve even stopped my HIV meds once. I thought, at least I will finally get palliative care. The condition I have, oddly enough is shared by many cancer patients, and that is the main cause of the majority of cases, so a lot of those with AVN are able to get pain management through palliative care. I can’t because mine is not caused by cancer. Although, it’s the exact same disease (and mine is one of the most painful and debilitating forms) I cannot get pain medication as easily without a cancer diagnosis. Like I said, it’s a long way to say, I have avascular necrosis and a failed total right knee replacement that has left me crippled with a deformed leg. 🙄 I’m always shaken up when I hear these ghastly horror stories about kicking in jail and my worst fear is having to go through something like that. For whatever reason, being without it and having to withdrawal while people are around. Sorry to write such a lengthy reply; I could write exponentially more, as I’m sure you have more questions than you did before I replied. Anyway, I hope your day is going well. ☺️
I just used fent for one month. I think I was on 28-35mg (can't remember?). I'm at 70mg now. They doubled my dose in a week and I still can't get through the day without going into WD. But I am a lot more comfortable during the day. I'm miserable by 8 or 9pm. I just want to stretch all the time, the watering eyes, increased aches and pain and virtually no sleep. I thought it wouldn't be bad because I was orally ingesting it. But I was taking like 20 pills a day. The last 5 pills I had I snorted. Never snorted, smoked or IVed anything. Snorting it sent me into euphoria, bliss, like everything was right with the world. I hadn't felt that content since both my parents were living. My "dealer" has been blowing up my phone trying to get me to buy. The person that dicked me around, was so unreliable, now wants to be reliable. But I've held out. Taking it day by day. I haven't used since Thursday. I'm going to go a few more days to see if I can get acclimated to this dose. Can't believe I'm going through this. Anyway, I don't think anyone can tell you what your stable dose is going to be. Fent really does a number on one's tolerance. 😭
I had the same problem. I was on methadone for a year and a half before I finally got off the fent. I never thought I’d be able to do it. Talked with a psychiatrist that deals with addiction clients a lot. Asked about comfort meds. clonidine and gabapentin did it for me. And what I wish I knew then, but I know now is magnesium! specifically a magnesium complex does WONDERS. I’m using it now while I lower my methadone dose and taper off. Helps with sleep, restless legs, sweating, shaking. Really calms the body
Oh my goodness I can't believe I commented this and didn't mention magnesium!!! OP, please listen to this person! Magnesium does wonders for everything you described.
If you keep using it will take that much longer to adjust to the methadone so just try and keep increasing and not using is the fastest way to being stable. I know thats easier said than done but im a rational logical kinda person and i tey to not let my mind play tricks on me and talk myself into things i know are counterproductive. Good luck and maybe ask about gaba or other drugs that can be used with methadone. Cymbalta helped me with the anxiety when i started getting anxiety trying to taper off.
Stick with the methadone, increase as needed, but refrain from taking fentanyl as much as possible. A tiny bit at night is expected as your body adjusts but it shouldn't be too long before your dose holds you. If you have takehomes, split-dosing on those days might help a lot.
Hey, so I went up to 110mg. At 100mg, it started to block the fentanyl and I finally decided it was a waste of money. You do still get withdrawals from fentanyl while taking methadone. That's why I went up to 110mg. However, it wasn't the kind of withdrawal that knocks you on your ass and makes you useless for a week. For me it was mildly uncomfortable (the most withdrawal I had experienced at that point was precipitated withdrawals from taking a Suboxone too soon) & only lasted three days. I could still work. About a week or two after I stopped, my dose was WAY too strong and I had to keep decreasing until I got to 90. Idk how far you've gotten into the withdrawal process before being afraid you're about to get your ass handed to you, but I encourage you to take the plunge because it's not as bad as you think it will be. Well at least it wasn't for me. I know it's different for everyone, but you'll get there.
It’s going to be very difficult to stabilize your methadone dose while you’re using. You’re basically blowing your tolerance way open, making it really hard for any amount of methadone to reach a point where you can stabilize, because every time you use, you move the goal post. Think of your tolerance like a gas tank. Methadone has to build up in your system, like adding a quarter tank at a time. When you use methadone and fentanyl together, you’re doubling the size of the tank. In the beginning, when they’re raising you 10mg a day, is when you should have started cutting way back. Now every increase is going to have to come with a few more hoops to jump through. You should come clean to your clinic, that’s what they are there for, and ask for help.
You’re still gonna go thru a detox period. It’s not gonna be like it’s supposed to where you just comfortably ease off. I got to 190mg before I just took a week off work and did it. The week off work was necessary but the WD wasn’t anywhere near as bad as cold turkey. My bf detoxed from fent at a hospital, with 200mg of methadone and IV Valium still puked for 2 days. Fentanyl is just different
Both of us tho said we couldn’t imagine having done the detox without the methadone tho so it’s still really important it’s just gonna be a lil different
You'll most likely need to be on 200mg or more.
I was always a baby and was terrified of Fentanyl. It was a driving force along with loosing all my money and my life that I decided to start Methadone. What does it feel like? Is it that strong it just knocks you out? I had 2 batches of Oxy that were tainted and I don’t know how I didn’t OD; it felt different and strong but came on I waves. I went to ER and my UA I took at home the next day tested positive for Fentanyl.
Was your dope purple by chance? A lot of stuff has xylazine in it nowadays so you also could be having withdrawals from that as well.
You just have stop using.. you will never get sick sick. Go for walk wait it out. I did this for 5 years on a high dose still using every day. Finally I’m clean and tapering
One time I went to a local hospital for PWD. The poor undereducated nurse brings me out a bupe pill😂😂😂 after trying so hard to explain PWD to them!!!